Episode 22 DWP Michigan's Own, Black Label Whitetails

Ryan Halfman joins the Deer Wizard to discuss the history and founding of Black Label Whitetails located in Michigan. 

This podcast is built around real-world experience, collaboration with producers and veterinarians, and nearly three decades of hands-on work across North America. The goal is simple: provide practical insight that helps producers make better decisions for herd health, genetics, and long-term success. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Deer Wizard Podcast, conversation shaping the deer industry. I'm your host, Josh Newton the Deer Wizard. Through interviews, advocacy, and industry news, we deliver field-proven insights to help producers build better herbs. Welcome back, everybody. This is your host, Josh Newton. We are traveling to Michigan today, virtually, of course. We have a chat with the owner of Black Label Whitetails. We have a really fun conversation. We cover all sorts of different topics from AI and breedings, starting up farms, building fence, incorporating old genetics, feedback pedigrees, and a whole host of other topics. It was a really fun conversation that I had. And without further delay, we want to welcome Mr. Ryan Hoffman from Black Label Whitales. Ryan, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Well, hey, Josh. Good to see you. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I appreciate you coming on. Um I want to uh I want to dive into a few topics today, but I want to get a little bit of the backstory of kind of your journey into deer farming, uh, how black label whitetails came to be, and um you know what the future looks like for uh your farm, and maybe we'll get into some some state and national issues uh on a on a high level.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, so um I purchased the farm back in 2015, and uh 2016 had our first deer delivered. Um and you know, we sit on just under 40 acres total, and and we've developed I think right around 20 pens now, 19 or 20 pens. And um, but yeah, starting out, had no idea what I was getting into, and it was pretty naive to the industry um and the challenges that come with it. But uh, you know, always loved whitetail deer and and thought it'd be neat to just have them in the backyard and um actually attended the United Deer Farmers of Michigan. Um I was referred to go there by by our DNR um when I was looking to renew my registration. So that was really eye-opening just to see the the scale and scope of the industry and what it what it was in Michigan. Um then got connected with Paul Eckert, Paul and Kyle Eckert, and uh learned a lot from those guys, and they they got me set up with my first initial herd purchase.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yeah, nice. Um, so the the farm that you originally bought, that was uh that was a deer farm when you bought it, correct?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

It was. It was a it was a ranch. Okay, so it wasn't a it wasn't a certified farm. Um they were back in the day, but then as regulations changed, they couldn't operate as a farm and move anything off of their live. Um you know, it was one big 35-acre pen, and he ended up having to convert it to a ranch because there's no way he was gonna catch and tag everything and and get up to the get up to snuff with uh current regulations when that all was imposed.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah. Where um where in uh Michigan are you located?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

We're we are in Portland, uh between Lansing and Grand Rapids.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Okay. What's that what's that uh ground like? Because I like I know you guys sit off right off the Great Lakes, and like I've talked to a couple folks, and they're like, oh yeah, we're just in like pure sand, right? It's just old silt bottom, there's some you know, river bottoms, and then you get up into the UP and it's like old school, you know, forest. Like what's your what's your ground like?

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah, well, Portland is the city of two rivers or the Grand River and looking glass come together. So there's some up and down, and some uh you know, we sit on a ridge where it drops off down to a swamp, uh eight acres of swamp down below us. Um but it's mainly farmland around there, nice pretty flat for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah. Um, so you get this uh you get this farm, it's got a big enclosure around it. Like, how do you how do you tackle this new project? Like, I'm sure you did a bunch of work, you're probably still doing work. Uh any anybody that you know has a farm is always you know, building new fence, putting new gates in, putting you know waterline infrastructure, whatever that may be. Did you like have to do a full rebuild or what what was that?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Well, yeah, part of part of my naivety to the whole situation was hey, the fence is already up. This is great, but the fence was probably put up the same year I was born, and uh so needless to say, it was it wasn't all 10 foot high, and the posts were rotted out, and there were three layers of rusted out fence, and it wasn't it wasn't gonna be a good situation for me to utilize any of that for the incoming investment that I ended up bringing in with my herd. So we ended up building all new pens, um, started from scratch. We kept the old perimeter up and intact, kind of as a double fence situation, but it's a questionable double fence insurance policy, yeah. Just the just in case, yeah, which it did come in handy when we had some some tree damage a few years back. Yeah, um, we were able to utilize that and get uh 12 bucks that that made their way out back in. So nice. Um but no, yeah, it was all it was all built. Uh you know, initially we just had enough money to buy or build the one pen, and then we've we've been adding it onto it. Um so yeah, it's felt like it's been a continuous build for 10 years now.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Yeah, that's a cool thing about a farm that I always enjoy is like even though it's endless work, like it's good work, right? Like you're always continuing to to improve and make these enhancements to make life easier, uh, not only for you, but you know, for the animals. Um I'm assuming you know you build that first pen and like what you you you buy some deer, or there was deer there, and yet you sold them off, or how'd you kind of reincorporate the genetic model that you have today?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, so there were there were seven animals that had to be depopulated off of the land before I could get clearance and build the new pen and get it inspected, confirmed that it was empty. Um went through pedigrees, and I remember my head just spinning looking at something that was completely foreign to me. Um, and so some of them had pictures and some of them had cool names, and those were what I picked. And I do remember uh, I do remember, and you'll appreciate this too, but Paul mentioning in one of our first conversations that thunderstorm daughters are highly sought after and uh guaranteed production. So um yeah, so we did we did buy a thunderstorm daughter that first year. It's one of our initial ones. Um and then we picked out ended up picking out Machine Head and Overhead's mom, which was a King Express daughter that went back to Cookie, um, which was a good producing dough up for for the Eckhartts. And uh and then I picked out a crocket dough. I remember visiting their farm, and two of them in the pen were six inches taller than any other any of the any of the other yearling doughs, and uh so we snagged one of them, and she's just a giant, she's all of her offspring are huge. So um, yeah, I didn't really know what we were looking at initially. I just we picked seven and then I went out and bought semen to use, and they artificially bred them at their farm. So it was nice because I was able to go up there and actually get hands-on, you know, let's go through the whole thing. I want to help you guys bottle feed, I want to put cedars in, pull cedars out, be there for AI. Um, so I spent a year kind of trying to go through every aspect of it with them as much as I could. You know, they're three hours north, but but it was worth that having that experience, you know, driving up there to to ride along with Kyle when he was cutting bucks in the fall, and all that was just good, good experience that I was I had no background in. So um that's what we did all of 20 2016 leading up to them being delivered in December.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I remember trying to figure out how a family tree worked, you know, like looking at a pedigree sheet. And uh I bet you for six months I was writing the I was writing out my my pedigrees upside down. I was putting the does on top and the bucks on the bottom, and uh, you know, I made up my little book because I was doing whatever I was doing, and I showed it to my uncle, and he was like, Hey, all these are backwards, and I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, Well, the bucks always on top, and I was like, Oh, okay. And so, like, you know, I was I was kind of mortified, but my you know, all my heart, I you know, I because like so back in the day, like number one, there's there was no digital anything, right? And so if you got pictures of deer, you were either getting 35 millimeter copies mailed to you, or you were seeing them in publications, and really the only publication back then was the Animal Finders Guide, which was like a newspaper, right? And like, so the print quality is bad. I I found that book here, I don't I don't know, a year or two ago, and like I looked at some of the the old stuff, and like it was like uh, you know, it was like clippings, like I'd literally clip it out of the magazine, and then I found some of the old books that had the clippings out of it, you know. I'd open it up and I'd be looking through the book and I'm like, wow, like I because I cut I don't I remember doing it, but I don't exactly remember doing it because it was a long time ago, and but it's it's funny how we we learn those things, and I I do remember kind of that overwhelming feeling about pedigrees. Um, because like that was just it was very foreign to me, you know. Like I didn't I just didn't know it. And um we know today that like the pedigree is like a really critical component of of some of these animals, um, at least a lot of them in in in what we do. Uh you had mentioned Crockett and and uh the body size um on those those does those offspring out of him. I still I remember seeing him and like his antlers didn't look big, right? They're super pretty.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

But his body he was number one typical at Nadifa.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

They were big, just well, you couldn't see it when it was on the head because his I don't you know I never saw him in person, but his dome was it was like a watermelon with antlers on it, so it looks small, and then you see him and you're like, Oh my gosh, and like so probably like a super underrated buck that like maybe didn't get the the shake that he wanted, but like you you saw some really nice stuff out of that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

And actually, we um I bred with him this year, and I I did you bred with Crockett this year, yeah. I love it, yeah. Yeah, and and uh a year ago I did too. So I have my biggest buck fawn in the pen is out of Crockett, and it's um goes back to one of my other originals, the silver storm chopper cross that those doughs produce like crazy too. So I ended up buying one of those sisters in the initial purchase, and um yeah, something else, you know, going back to like this historical stuff, and you're seeing these old pictures and cutouts, and something that I kept was after one of my first talks with Paul, you know, I'm writing down all these notes about what to expect, what our stockers are selling for, what what could I you know, how can I turn this into a business, how can I make it make sense? Because at the time it I spent every dime I had to buy those first the first group of deer, and uh so I think it's kind of cute now to look back and think that this is my projections of what that was gonna turn into. And then uh, you know, I quickly became addicted to to the deer industry and buying deer and but looking at the pedigrees and trying to improve how those how those look and try to see what matches on the production um versus the hype portion of the pedigree. And um, yeah, so it's it's neat to look back and and see how that evolved over time.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, the deer world has a way of smacking you around real quick.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, and my initial projections are kind of laughable. I I went off course very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Um, so like when you when you get these uh first couple dose, did you just like jump into doing AI right away and just build up from there? Like, were you always pretty consistent about that?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Or we've we've AI'd every year. Uh I think I bought my chute like the week before we were gonna AI because I thought, okay, no big deal. There's only seven. I'm gonna dart them, put the cedars in, dart them, pull them out, dart them to AI. And I think our the pen that they were in was about an acre and a quarter. And they were calm deer, but man, by the time you got four or five of them darted, they're on to you, they know what you're there for. And uh and so that that incentivized me to try to get a chute set up, and we tried to try to rig one up in the alleyway, and the vet laughed at me that first year. He was like rolling his eyes, there's no way they're gonna go into that thing. And I mean, we had carpet draped on one wall, and we were building temporary squeezes down into um to try to get them down into it, and we ended up running them into a smaller area and darting them all that way, but uh but you know, I ended up they're all still mixing around together, and it was it was stressful. So um, so that first year was rough, or at least very stressful on the AI side of it, but yeah, we've done it every year. Nice um mindset eventually.

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Uh I I think it has some value. I know there's even though we've seen a ton of attrition in our industry over the past call it 10 years from uh CWD regulations, we still like there's still a business cycle that's been going on, and so we do see new entrants coming in. Um, can you talk a little bit more about maybe how you feel about like your initial interactions? Uh, not necessarily um with the Eckhart's per se, but like the importance of having a mentor, having people that can help you, and that hands-on process that like you thought was important to you, um, and maybe some of the ways that you were treated around that. I mean, you were you're free labor, so like that's a bonus, right? It's always cool having some hands-on, and deer farmers are like incredible people as far as sharing. Um, but can you talk about that a little bit more?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, you know, one I guess the part of the conversations that I like to have with people when they're if I'm approached about somebody wanting to start a farm is my understanding of it now, and trying to give them give them the idea that you can enter into this at several different levels. And it's I try to extract from them like what are your goals? What's your end game and vision for this? Do you want to be a top 30 consigner? Do you want to, you know, just live in your little corner and and breed your own stock and supply stockers to ranches? Um, and then all the things that kind of go along with that is what kind of values do you want to see out of your females? And it's about building relationships with with some of these ranches and then promoting your animals to to build value within them. Um, it's not just a buy them, breed them, and sit back and watch the money roll in. Yeah, which a lot some people come to me and think that's that's the that's the way this works, but um, but no, so I usually try to find out what segment of the market is the best fit for them and try to get them to realize that through my explanations. And I probably confuse more people than I help, but it's uh I feel like that's that's the right thing to do when when you're approached.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah. Yeah, it's um uh it can it's it starts becoming a little more challenging as time goes on, too, because it's hard to put yourself back in that in that place where you're remembering those specifics of like the things that you did, or you know, because it's a it's a time recall thing, but there's some some basics which it sounds like you've identified um that you can help guide these these folks on. Um you mentioned like kind of two different business segments, right? So you got your like I'm using air quotes for the the people that are listening, you got your top 30 breeders, right? That's an easy way to identify, you know, kind of solely breeder market, and then you know the ranch, the ranch part. There's there's probably a hybrid model in there, right? Yeah, and it's it I suspect it's it's the it's probably the largest segment of our business generally, because like everybody that I know that breeds deer, they they want the opportunity to be a quote unquote top 30 breeder or have that stock, but they have there's economic concerns, and and obviously, you know, having ranch stock is is a way to keep the operations going. Is that kind of how you look at things? Is there any nuance in that conversation?

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Well, I think I think you nailed it, and that's that's kind of where we naturally just that's where we were naturally led with the way that things progressed at our farm. You know, we've uh I've gotten to the point where we're carrying enough dose that I don't want to get to the tipping point where I'm too overcrowded and creating more issues, and um so I have I have my top 30 style type of deer genetics that I I'm breeding a specific way, and then I have production deer that produce equally as well, but they may not carry the value because of the names behind them and the marketing is is lacking, but um you know for them I've implemented a male sex breeding program, so I'm getting the stalkers primarily, and I'm not adding onto my production side as much as I am on the higher-end genetics.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Is that is that your primary tool to control that outcome is is using male sex amen.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yes. Okay. I mean, I also I if I find I'll take I have some that are in my higher end breedings that I'm building on this big production that I'm recognizing on the bottom side, too. So I feel like it's it's a personal preference thing. It's become more and more just what crosses do I want to see through, and and being a little less influenced by what's the popular thing to do.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Because I, you know, looking back, looking back at um auction books, I mean it's kind of neat to see if you go way back how how there was such a variety and anymore, it's like you gotta you gotta breed this because that's what everybody's breeding with this year. Um so it's that's what's also interesting too with the genetic resistance and how that whole high end is being redefined in real time here. Yeah, well, we're seeing that shift.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah, we'll we'll we'll jump into that in a second. Do you think um because it's a it's a huge part of our our future, I think, um of the industry. Um you mentioned the marketing and um kind of genetic background that ties into creating quote unquote breeder stock. Can you well let's use cookie, right? You mentioned cookie earlier. I know you love I know you love cookie. Um how do you make a female line famous? That's the that's the question. How do you make a female line famous? What are the steps? What do you think that process looks like? How do you turn quote unquote production animals, stalker animals, into breeder, recognized breeder name animals?

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, I mean it takes she's gotta be proven as far as production goes. I think having multiple multiple popular breeder bucks that are marketed that can point back to you know what's the common denominator and it's okay we're all anchored to cookie. Um I mean I went out and I bought I bought cookie daughters, cookie granddaughters, and glad to still have a bunch of them anchored down to cookie on my farm. But um and I've told people in private conversations, yeah, she's the Tasha of Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Um but yeah, I mean it's it takes it takes a lot to to get that recognition, whether it's nationally or even within the state, it takes involvement, it takes um showing up and being present and talking to people about your genetics and and why you breed a certain way and what you've seen out of them. I mean, if you don't go anywhere or ever talk to anybody, it's you're not gonna get that word out there.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

So um kind of like storytelling storytelling. Like it's important to go out and tell your tell your story and um I guess show people what you see. Yeah, right. Um I guess on that topic, when you you you've as you've got further and further into the commitment to the industry, your your time, your growth of your operation, um, I think you I'm speaking for you a little bit, but I I think it's accurate. You have seen value in state and national associations. Um, let's start on the state level with uh United Deer Farmers of Michigan. What has that um what did that look like for you originally? You said like I I think like before you had deer, you went to an event, or right when you got deer, you the like DNR was like, hey, you should go to this.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Uh what was that what was that like? You know, that was that was really eye-opening to see that there was one just that many people getting together to support this industry that I didn't even know existed. Um so that that was that was really eye-opening, and then to see, man, that straw of semen just sold for what? Like, you know, um to understand the scale of it, number one was the biggest the biggest impact. But then also, and I've said this before, it was it was a lot more fun to just get into it and talk about deer and be naive to the issues and the regulations. Um it was a lot more fun before I got involved with all the political side of things and the the association work, but but the reason I'm doing that is because I want to see this industry succeed. My the the reason I do it is I want to see I want to be able to pass this down to my have black-labeled white tails exist 20 years from now. Um so I that's where the importance of the involvement with the associations lies for me. Um and that's uh I don't I care I care that much that I'm sacrificing on my other businesses to uh to make sure that's I'm doing what I can, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Yeah. What what prompted you to I mean you kind of said it, but like was there a specific moment that you said like, hey, I need to get involved, or how can I help? Uh do you re do you recall that? Or was it just kind of this general idea that like, hey, I've I I've this number one, I have this large financial commitment. Um, I got these kids coming on, I want to see them do well in the future and provide for them. I want to have some legacy building. How do I how do I affect that change that I want to see?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Yeah, it was if I remember, I think Paul Eckert actually came to me and he was like, Hey, you know, you're you're a bright young guy. We need some need some younger blood on the board. You want to get involved with the United Deer Farmers of Michigan. So um, so yeah, I threw my hat in the ring and um ended up on the board. So I think that was 2018. So um yeah, I kind of from there just trying to absorb as much as I can about how it all works and and why, and learning the history and you know, every trip that we make, just like we just got back from DC. Um, you know, learned a lot just listening and talking to different guys from all over the country that are there. Um, and it's not just Michigan issues, every state has their own set of set of issues. So um, yeah, it's a lot to try to understand and digest.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah, the hit the history part is I think the most challenging, right? Because like at least, and again, when we're for the folks listening and watching, when we're talking about regulations, like it's exclusive to chronic waste and disease. And at least for us it is, uh, like in our state, like I there's really no other issues. I mean, occasionally something else will pop up, but it's it's minor in the scheme of things. Like if you look at the regulatory documents that are created on state levels for programs, um, and nationally, generally speaking, it's chronic waste disease. Yeah, there's some TB uh testing and some bruise testing and stuff like that, but like the overwhelming burden seems to be on on CWD. Um I I'd prefer to defer away from that directly at this time. I I think I've been pretty good on my past shows not to not to get too far down in the weeds on on CWD stuff. Maybe we'll save that for another day.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Yeah, I didn't I didn't bring my tinfoil hat.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

So I I will say this, um, and maybe we can you had mentioned uh genetic resistance, so maybe we'll touch on it from from that aspect. Um that uh technology's been released into the into the world for you know half a decade now. Um we're coming right up on that for for this spring. What what's been your take um as far as like genetic breeding, implementation, how you're looking at it? Um, because there's all sorts of different factors, right? Like I've heard people say, for instance, like, oh, you just you just breed with you know the best bucks you can and you move on. And like there's economic concerns because you still have to run the business because they eat a lot of feed and you got to pay for it, and then there's market concerns, and then you get into um you know geographic locations, like you're in Michigan, it can be a challenge breeding with you know overtly southern deer again and again and again and again due to body size, so on and so forth. So, how how have you at Black Label been kind of looking at that and tackling it?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Yeah, so it this year was the most challenging as far as laying out a breeding strategy, just because I'm I'm working on getting all of my data on on my herd. So, what are the markers? What's the breeding values? And then and then you got this new market, so to speak, of looking at all these new resistant bucks that are being promoted, and just like you pointed out the concern, I need to maintain body size. I pride pride myself in the fact that we have extra large deer body-wise at our place. Um, and so I was willing to take a slower step or a longer path to try to get to my end goal of yes, I want the most resistance that I can get. Um, I want the SS, I want the negative breeding values, but how can I do that and not compromise any anything else that I've worked towards up to this point? So um, so it was tricky. It was tricky. And then the government shutdown made my fresh sex semen get hung up and delivered a day after our AI. Um, so there's a there's a few issues this year, but um, but what I did on my for my conventional girls is um I bred with Crockett, he's a GS. Uh we read with Silver King, Anchorman, um, King James, Silverbill, T Rex, XL. So I'm I'm working in these northern deer that have S markers, at least one S marker. Um some of them are SS, but going back to some older school names that are proven production-wise and have been staples in the industry for a long time and carry that resistance marker. So um, so I'm I'm easing into it and trying to trying to maintain past goals with future vision.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah, I like that. We uh we thought a straw from the 90s at my place this year, if that puts any perspective on how how old it was, which was super cool. Um I I I always get a kick out of doing stuff like that. People are like, what the heck are you doing? I'm like, well, it's just wanted to see if it was viable. It was only 27 years old, so don't worry about it. Yeah, but that's that's amazing that we can preserve genetics like that, right? Like, yeah, because and and like they're coming, they're becoming few and farther between, but there's still value there, not only from you know potential markers or GBVs, but from um genetic diversity standpoint, right? Because like they're I mean you you meant I you mentioned some bucks that are you know 10 and 15 years old, but like easy.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Um you know when when was Silver Bill born?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Um well he came after Silver King. So like Silver King and his brother were born in um 2005 or six. Because like I I I own Silverstar. I bought when I bought him, it was 2008 and he was three years old. Yeah, so they would have been born in 05. Silver King and Silver Star.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Okay, because I I mean that's 20, that's 21 years old.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

I mean, I laugh looking at some of the stuff like who else is thinking about breeding a horsepower triple crown ranger to Silver Bill. She's out there, she's super wide. I'm like, all right, it worked.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, no, that's awesome. It it's so and and and this is like like I love this part of the conversation, right? Because like we were we were just discussing CWD regulations, which like puts a frown generally on everybody's face, and then we transition into like something that's actually cool, right? And I I've said this to like a couple of my buddies that we talk regularly about deer, and like the conversation's always about CWD, and like I I've said I can't wait for the day when we can get back to just talking how we used to talk about breedings and antlers and fawn health and whatever that may be, right? And I hope that I hope that day comes sooner than later. Um, but yeah, breeding's breeding's super interesting. Have you um uh I guess on that that note, have you seen a uh transition within let's just say you know Michigan or your kind of sphere of people that you you engage with regularly where they're they're actively looking at these genetics and and trying to you know come up with strategies to implement them?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, you know, I feel like Michigan, Michigan is. I feel like it's not not at the forefront. Michigan's been a little more reasonable as far as their response to CWD positive cases. Um but at the same time, we don't want to find we don't want CWD on our farms, we don't want to find it, we don't want the traceouts and the quarantines, and um so if we have this solution and you know Dr. Seabury's work is I mean, the guy's brilliant, and what he's done is is uh great for us and the industry to work off of. So we're seeing more and more people shift that way.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah. Um I I I just my brain's wired for CWD. I wanted to ask more CWD questions, but I I don't want to. Um let's get let's get back to that fat dough you were just talking about. Um do you find that uh like have you like obviously that's a that those fawns are going to be hybrid, right? Because you got you know uh more southern-based genetic dough that you've bred to northern stock. Have you done that quite a bit? Are you doing that more? Um what's that what's that look like?

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah, you know, we've we have done that, and I've got I've had pretty good success with keeping keeping the body size where they need to be. And actually that horsepower dough is is she's one of my bigger, bigger girls. Um but uh no, something else that another.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

I see you're you're staring at a breeding list on your screen. I got it on my screen. I got it pulled up. I'm watching Ryan's eyes dart off to the side.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah, I'm looking here and I caught a bunch of flack for this one too. And I'm you know, I bred it with a melanistic buck that's uh he's an SS, and I thought, you know, if I'm gonna get a melanistic deer, I want it to be like the best pedigree melanistic on the planet, you know. And so I bred my silver or my Storm Express Gladiator XL Red 117, which is which is Silverhawk going back to uh Green 43. And uh yeah, I'm hoping I get some S-markered melanistic Yeah, that's that's cool. Green 43 anchored offspring.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

But do you do you have uh so you did you own uh uh red 117?

SPEAKER_00 36:39

No, I ended up buying um buying two Storm Express daughters that were sisters, they were bred and born at uh Eckert's farm.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

I think those are double that's those are double Green 43, right? Like Green 43 top and bottom.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Yep, Storm Express is a dam on the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, yeah. Um so you've mentioned quite a few of those. I call them Patrick Bucks, whatever you want to call them. Uh Pine Creek. Has that uh has that line been pretty pretty good for you just generally?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah, I mean, symmetry, size of the frame, body-wise, it's all there with the Patrick line. And I've been a big fan of it, and that probably goes back to you know, Gary Edwards was really influential in the Michigan market when he brought in a lot of these the Patrick Line doughs, and um then shortly thereafter the the borders became a little more difficult to cross um for imports. So um, yeah, I mean he really really set the precedent there with those genetics in Michigan. And I know some other some other guys that have uh had a lot of the Patrick bottom side, and and Gary Gary was the guy to go to for forever. So um a lot of guys starting their farms ended up with these these deer that are anchored down to the Patrick line. But I believe um yeah, I believe Paul bought that Gladiator XL purple 209, I think, from uh one of the sales and brought her in. And she had those Storm Express girls.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah, that's super cool. Uh GXL's been just like an absolute hammer on the the GBVs. I mean, he's got he's I think he's one of the best ever in the GBV score, but like he he's certainly passing it. You know, you could take you know zero dose and breed them to him and get your minus twos, like first gen, which is yeah, just wild. Um, you know, and he's got he's got production value, obviously. Like he's been bred to a lot of deer, and he's made tons of good sons and daughters. I know, like if you look at like John Irvin's place, right? He got some GXL rolling through there, and like they're just you know, they're big. So that's that's cool. Um what uh you you've obviously had um you've had some nice bucks over the years that that you've used. You want to touch on them a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Sure. I mean, we've had uh starting out first year in the business, machine head and overhead, they were they're born the you know, the first day we had phones out there, they were around the ground. That was uh had no idea the blessing that they would be, you know, in the long run, just as far as exposure and what they turned out to be. And I think you I think you told me because I'd you told me never you're the biggest critic of your own deer, and and and don't be afraid to be proud of your animals. And because I remember thinking I'm not gonna take these to Nadifa, you know, I see everybody's pictures and and videos, and all their deer look giant, and I just am really bad at pictures, and you know, we took them to Nadifa and they ended up being first and third place, typical yearlings that year. Um so that was that was some early words of wisdom from the deer wizard.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

I appreciate that. I uh I I have said versions of that to a lot of people, right? And like I'm guilty of it myself, where I'm like, you know, you just get exposure to all these different deer, and you think like everybody else's deer are just like so many levels above what you have, and like if you're not willing to you know be proud of the work you do and show it to people, you'll really never know what other people's opinions are. And um, you know, I guess that was a perfect example for you that you know you got to be proud and you know show people this and and the the stats backed it up, right? Because you you entered them into the into the antler comp and you know they crushed it. And so yeah, it's kind of like industry reinforcement of maybe what you you knew and gives you the confidence to some move forward.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yeah, so that was that was some early success with with them that gave us a little name recognition in the industry, and then then from there, you know, a lot of people know lead better. He's he was my giant non-typical.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Tell us about tell us about him, give us some stats because they're they're big. I remember seeing his antlers and I was like, holy smokes.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

He was uh as a three-year-old, he was he scored 470. He was 39 and 5'8 inside, tip to tip. Um and I forget what his mainframe was. It was 270, around 270 mainframe.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Yeah, that's absurd.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

But you know, the cool thing is now I'm now I'm trying to take my best bucks and cross them on my best producing does that have created produced other breeder bucks and just make that black label thing all tie together with where our success has has been and what I've seen. So um, so yeah, unfortunately, I lost lead better to EHD a couple years ago and very few straws left. Of course, these GG, so I kind of want to sit on it and get some numbers where they where I need them to be um before reintroducing that. But I'm trying to get lead better daughters out of each of my really good producing bottom sides.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Um what what other what other lines have you kind of been exposed to that you you s seem to start liking what you're seeing? Is there is there others there?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Yeah, the other uh I have Thundercat at my place now. He's he's gonna be five this year, and I think he was last year he was three three eighty. Um but he had 30 and a half inch beams and then was 30 and a half inch wide. Um, but body-wise, he's just a pig. And uh he's a GS, so we've used him to cover, and um he is uh a Fed son on Thunderstorm Quicksilver Avalanche Excalibur, I believe. So Patrick Bottomside, and um yeah, so he's been a cool buck to watch and have, and it's nice to have those breeders that you can keep around for a number of years and watch him get a hold.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, Avalanche was super underrated deer. I mean, he wasn't at the time, but like people kind of transitioned away from him fairly quick. The market moves fast, yeah. And uh, you know, it's the whatever you want to call it, the buck of the day, the scoop of the week, you know, what's your what's your flavor of ice cream? But it's it's amazing how fast it moves away. But like I remember so I I got I forget when I brought with him maybe 2004. 2004. And like right out of the game. You know, 200-inch two-year-old. It was my first one ever. And um, you know, big body, like really nice. And um, that was just my one little experience, right? But I remember like, you know, Pierce, Pierce Whitales. Um, you know, they had like they had Tonto, and then all the Tonto sons after that, and they were just like everything was big, and there was various antler construction, but like they were all big. Um, you know, I know like Mike Nedry, right? Speak of a Michigan guy, like Nedry. You know, he he used him a bit, and like, of course, yeah, like Mike had some giant, giant bucks, and so that that was kind of like an older deer that um I think would stand the test of time today, and like you know, you could use them. I know Eckert's used them over there at their place. Um, I'm sure they had uh plenty of nice animals out of them. Um yeah, that's that's super cool.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Um yeah, so speaking of Mike Nedry, um I always enjoy talking to him and listening to his story, his origin story of his first year.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

I'm listening because I don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Okay, so he yeah, he told me uh, yeah, oh, you bought the Jones place. Yeah, I that's where I bought my first animals from. And he said, old man Jones put on his waders and went down into the swamp. And he was Mike was supposed to buy 10 does, and so they this is back in the day, you know. This is yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Yeah, this is 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Just to qualify the statement before we get get hammered with whatever. But um, yeah, they they chase them up this up the hill, and there's guys waiting at the top, and they dart 10 does, but they're loose on 35 acres, and they end up finding eight of them, and that's what that's what uh Mike got started with. But on his pedigrees, you'll see Jones Buck Jones Doe. Because I don't know if they even had any identification other than that, but um those all came from came from our property that we're on now.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

So that's super cool. I did I did not know that.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

I've tried to acquire a few different straws, and I think I have a couple in the tank that have Jones Jones Doe on the bottom. So I'm I'm trying to bring it full circle and reintroduce some of the original Jones genetics back onto the black label.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

That's so neat. Uh, we call those feedback pedigrees where I come from, and it it was uh when two guys sat down on a feedback and wrote a pedigree out. That's how old that was. Now, today we don't have to worry about that because we have you know DNA testing and and GBV. So I'm gonna circle back to that. Um you said that you're working on your your um your analysis on your herd and kind of going through and making these decisions. Um can you talk about some of the cooperative agreement funding and what that looks like for you know producers around the country? Because I I think it's I think it's an important qualifier for for the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

No, I think it is too. That that's a good tool for a lot of states to use as long as it's set up properly um and not punitive if you're utilizing it. Um, I know there were some some snafus in different states, but um, yeah, you can if you get that grant money and it's written this way, you can you can have the state with the grant pay for your genetic testing and verify your parentage and get that all all accomplished through nadar. Um but yeah, I know that there's every state writes their own, and there are a few different things to watch out for. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Um now Michigan has that. Like you've you guys have been able to take advantage of some of those dollars.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

We have been able to. Yeah, yeah. Yep. I know some states are incentivizing, eliminating higher susceptibility in your herd. So if you they may they may give you some indemnity for trying to improve your your numbers, your markers and numbers. Um, so it can be used for a few different things, but yeah, it's been a nice, nice tool for the most part.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah, that um that process was um we engaged in that in our state. So, like our Department of AG said, uh, we feel that it's just as important to move, remove, remove, remove the high-risk animals as it is to breed with the low risk or low susceptibility animals. So, how do we achieve both goals at once? And so they said if you remove these animals that are high risk or high susceptibility, here's the criteria, um, we will reimburse you for genetic material that is of superior value. So they double whammy'd it, it was really great. And so basically, like, you know, you'd call a doe and they'd give you a you know, a stipend or a credit for a thousand dollars towards like a really nice straw semen, embryos, live animal that met the criteria for low susceptibility, and and that was a that was an interesting concept, and so I did a little bit of that at my place because you know when you sample your herd for you know the overwhelming majority of people, you kind of get a little slapped in the face because you figure out you don't have a ton of like really good animals, and what are the building blocks to work towards that? And I suspect almost everybody could use a few less deer on their place, um, just from uh an overall you know health standpoint, because those suckers like to reproduce. They're if they're good at one thing, it's eating food and making babies. Um, yeah, that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Here's my challenge with that is one of our it's gotta be the farm favorite, Holly, yellow 29. She's uh I mean the kids hang on her. She's that she's that dough. She's just chill, she runs good through the through the barn, she knows what she's doing. Um she is the weakest link, genetically speaking, on our farm. She's a GG and she's got the highest breeding value of anything that we have. What am I supposed to do there?

SPEAKER_01 50:26

You want me to answer this? Not really. Okay. I can tell you what I did, and I did not enjoy it. And I I called those, I called those animals. And we s we celebrated their life through their genetics. Um, and we still have them today. We've always been progressively trying to get better. Um but we had some great backstraps and they were delicious, and we we honored those animals in that fashion. Now, is that a acceptable thing within a family? No, it's really hard, right? And like, you know, like my kids were pretty young when when I started doing that, and so they didn't quite have the you know the concept of what it was. Um they still don't understand that that part of it well. But it's a it's a great lesson for life. Um but yeah, that's a challenge. That's a big challenge. Like it's it's it's no fun because and for anybody that hasn't haven't has not raised a deer like what Ryan's describing, they become part of you your identity in your farm, right? And you know, when you start when you start having to make really hard decisions about life, um, that's a challenge. So don't do not tell your kids Josh said to do that. Yeah, please. I will. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

I think I think maybe I'll uh you know, if push comes to shove, we we could probably negotiate her release onto one of the one of the ranches that we work with, and she can retire out there. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

That's a that's a a great idea. Um yeah, there's still there's still value in on in all these lives, right? It just depends on on what that what that metric is. But yeah, that's super hard, man. I uh yeah, it's hard because I've I've been attached over the years to you know a couple of the girls, and as time's gone on, you get a little more desensitized to that, but it's really hard with kids.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

It's really hard with kids.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Yeah, yeah. Um well, cool. Well, uh did we miss anything? I think we covered some some pretty cool stuff. I I really enjoyed the conversation. Um where can people find uh Black Label Whitales or or uh yourself?

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Uh Facebook's probably the best way to to reach out. Cool. Um, we have a Facebook page working on getting a website going here eventually. So um, but yeah, for now, either that or feel free to reach out and give me a call.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Awesome. Uh Ryan, I greatly appreciate all that you do uh within our industry and for our industry. And uh since you are the uh president of the North American Deer Farmers Association, maybe we'll have you back on soon uh for a conversation relating to um regulations, what the association's been doing going on, and uh I look forward to that.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Okay, that sounds great. I appreciate it, John.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

You bet. And with that, stay tuned for another episode of the Deer Vizier.