Episode 24 DWP- New York Has Some Fun!

Dan Jennings from Battenkill Hunt & Fish Club to catch up with the Deer Wizard! Enjoy the conversation.

https://battenkillfarms.com/

This podcast is built around real-world experience, collaboration with producers and veterinarians, and nearly three decades of hands-on work across North America. The goal is simple: provide practical insight that helps producers make better decisions for herd health, genetics, and long-term success.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to the Deer Wizard Podcast, conversation shaping the deer industry. I'm your host, Josh Newton, the Deer Wizard. Through interviews, advocacy, and industry news, we deliver field-proven insights to help producers build better herds. Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. We have a really interesting conversation today. One of my uh oldest deer friends uh in the uh white tail industry, a guy I've done a ton of work with over the years, uh, been on some hunting trips, uh, I get to catch up with him. We talk about early days, genetics, uh industry, all sorts of stuff, and then we move on to some new beginnings and we work through the process of uh his ranch acquiring the property, uh, and it's just a just a fun conversation. Uh just kind of two guys sitting down having a chat about um uh the deer industry, where it is today, where it was, etc. So I hope you enjoy, and without further delay, welcome to the show. Hey Dan, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Hey Josh, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

You bet. So um you and I got a bunch of history together. We've known each other, I don't know, twenty twenty-five years, a long time. Um it was interesting because like I was I was thinking back to like kind of when we first met and like I remember the time frame, I don't really remember like the specific day, but I do remember doing all sorts of crazy stuff on a mountain in the middle of winter in upstate New York. Um and we were we were uh we were building a ranch um for a family member of yours, and we just like I don't know how our paths cross, but um we've had uh we've had a lot of run-ins and and some good adventures together. Um do you do you rem like do you like what do you remember of that?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

I mean back then I was uh you know equipment operator for a construction company and you know on the weekends I was going over and running the bulldozer and excavator, you know, to clear the clear the property line for for you guys to come in and install the fence. And uh yeah, I remember, you know, I don't remember the exact day, but I remember, you know, meeting you and I was kind of there on the weekends only, and you know, you guys were getting started, and then winter came in, and I think I uh I think I got laid off. I typically got laid off in the winters or whatever, and then we were just hanging out more. And um yeah, I mean that was a hellacious job uh in the middle of winter. Um steep terrain, uh swamp, the whole deal. I mean, I never in a million years imagined dragging a guy through the swamp on a bulldozer with my feet on the hood trying to stay out of the mud uh while we drove fence posts in the ground. But uh yeah, we did it. Um it was a wild adventure, uh, which then, you know, I mean, I I think your whole crew kind of quit that job and it was just you, and then it was basically just you and me um finishing that job. And maybe that's why we've become close over the years and whatnot. But uh yeah, I don't I don't I mean it was a good memory, don't really think I want to repeat it.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Well, there's a reason you got laid off, and and that was because nobody in their right mind does excavation work in upstate New York in December. That's exactly why. Like it was so nasty, like like the the amount of different weathers that we had to go through was insane. Like it was nice. I remember working in t-shirts. I worked on that job 52 straight days, straight. And like yeah, some days like it was you know, minus 20, and everything was froze. I mean, we we nuked a skid steer, like we were literally taking like propane torches to it to try to like thaw it out, melting the melting the uh radiator, like we just everything was froze, like it it and then like I remember that day we were we were uh putting uh breeder pens in behind a lodge and like it was it was freezing rain. And I had uh I had a rain suit on with many layers underneath, but like I had a quarter inch of ice over me, like my whole body, like I was like stuck, like I could not get my zipper undone. Like I was I was frozen my shell, which I guess is a testament to the Cabela's guide gear back in the day. Um like I don't think they make stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

We put some gear and some equipment through some um yeah, that poor skid steer and the poor four-wheeler. Oh my god. Uh I mean I remember we we like canopied the whole skid steer and had a bunch of like diesel heaters blowing on it just so we could try to get the hydraulics to work. That was that was wild. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

The swamp the swamp trip was pretty cool. So like we had we had the yeah, it was. I'm well, I mean, you were in the cap, I was in the swamp. I was literally standing, so we had a we had a we had a dozer, and then we had a chain hooked to the skid steer, and the skid steer had a king hitter on the front of it, and of course I was putting poles in, so somebody would hand me a pole. I'm riding on top of the king hitter, like I'm like basically like almost standing on the legs, and like I'm up to my knees in uh water and mud, and Dan's creeping us through this run, and like somebody handed me a pole, I'd set it in, we'd pound it, and of course, there's somebody in the skids tier, too, and they're sitting in like water, like the cab's full, like it was that was just the dumbest. Like, we we needed to wait. We needed to wait, and we didn't, and but we got it done.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

We did get it done, and I mean the crazy thing is it's still standing, yeah. It's still standing, it's still there. Uh, I drive by it every once in a while, and uh, I'm like, Well, I guess we did a pretty good job. I mean, it it took forever. I mean, and I've built a lot of fence since then. Um, but boy, that that uh that job was something. I don't know how to explain it correctly.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, but uh it was cool too. On the uh I always chuckle when people are like, oh, it's so rocky here, and I'm like, let me tell you about rock. So we we banged on this this slope um down the side of the mountain. And uh we we broke a if you've ever used a king hitter post pounder, we broke a three and seven eighth cents rock spike. We buried it into the rock and we broke it. We put in nine poles in 12 hours run straight. I don't know how many I don't know how many hits we put on that rock spike that day, but like it was a lot. So yeah, we tested everything, everything got tested, and uh we we persevered.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah. Well, I don't think those poles are going anywhere anytime soon either.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

No, they're they're wedge solid in that rock. I yeah, I pity the fool that ever has to take down that mess.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah, and then there's you know that that one story that we always talk about that really cold windy day when you know we're at the top of the mountain and we were supposed to get a ride off the mountain, and our ride never showed up. I mean, the two of us are huddled next to there's like a bundle of fence, and we're trying to use the fence, the the rolls as a uh windbreak, and we're freezing and freezing. I mean, I I don't know how long we stayed up there for, but it was a long time, and then we finally decided, okay, well, I guess nobody's coming for us. So uh we made the we made the hike off that mountain, but uh man, that was uh that was an experience. Um but you know it uh it helped form our relationship and you know uh two guys that uh just weren't willing to quit, kept going. Everybody else everybody else quit on us, but we kept going and uh got the job done. And um I learned a lot from you during that time. You know, I didn't really know anything about the deer industry or you know, whitetail breeding, servids, really anything. And um, you know, so as I I've always been a you know a lifelong hunter, um, you know, so learning about the the industry back then from you was was kind of you know eye-opening. And then uh I think you and I, I don't know if you'd ever gone before, but I went with you to my first top 30. So that was both that was our first top 30. That was uh I don't remember the year. Was that oh five? I think so. Oh four, oh five, something like that. So 20 plus years ago. Yeah. Um and then uh and then the following summer, uh, you and I took the a trip uh visiting all sorts of deer farms. We went up to uh Wild Rivers, um, went to uh you know the fleece's uh wilderness whitetails, uh down through Indiana, um, went to Eddie Ray Bork Holders.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

What we talked to Kurtz in Wisconsin too.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, Kurt, yeah, when Kurt was up there and before he moved to Ohio. What yearling then? Say that again. I think Rolex was a yearling, yes. Yeah. Um man, that was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, it was a long, long time ago. That was a that was a fun trip. Um, yeah, we just decided to jump in my Tacoma and drive 18 hours to the northeast part of Wisconsin. I had uh I had Brody on the show from Wild Rivers here, I don't know, a couple months ago, and uh I was telling him about that trip. And I I I told him, I said, I think I've been to Wild Rivers before you have. He kind of chuckled about it, and I showed him some I showed him some pictures um uh that we had took uh from inside like the lodge and like when when Gary had his horses and stuff, there's a there's a picture of uh a skinny version of of me uh standing in front of some horses with Gary. And um, yeah, that was just a it was a cool trip. We got to we got to see you know, we stopped at like the biggest farms in the country, not all of them, obviously, but like those were the guys, you know, like they had they had all the famous bucks from back then, and you opened a sale catalog, and you know, all those kind of early premiere breeders, like we got to see all of them, you know. We got to see Bucky on the hoof, we got to see Max and Flip. We got to see Avalanche and Soaring Eagle and Silverhawk and Thunderhead, and like it was just it was a it was cool because like neither one of us had ever been outside of our own little bubbles, and so it was super cool. Um yeah, that was uh it's it's hard not to it's hard not to get like kind of hooked on the deer industry uh when you're a hunter and like you get to interact kind of up close with these animals, and of course the you know the bucks like the bucks are the draw for the for the guys that like just love deer, you know, because like they're just so cool, like every one of them's different, they're all unique, like it was just uh yeah, it was just awesome.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

You know, that's what I was just thinking of is you know, we're we're thinking back to all these bucks that we saw back then. And uh imagine the does that were there that we didn't even really know anything about, and you know what they've you know what they've created throughout the years. And you know, we were we were we were standing there, we were, you know, they were about to make sons and daughters of of you know the next the next generations. Um and uh yeah that's it's it's wild to think about really and and look back at you know the history and where we started, what we've gone through in between, where we're at today. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Um and Peb Pebbles was standing there, Christy was standing there, Patrick 111 was standing there, like all those like foundational anchored that everybody talks about today. We saw them.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Like inadvertently we saw them. And uh, I mean, we're I think we were at Kurt's place, right? And we were kind of like following around, and there was a group of guys, Willie Soare was there. Yeah, and uh, you know, he was he was trying to make deals, you know, he was trying to, you know, buy some deer, and you know, back then, you know, everybody would drive around, you know, in July and August and you know, figure out where they're breeding, what they're breeding to, or you know, can I bring five does to your place to put in the pen with so and so and whatnot? And uh yeah, man, that was uh that was the time. That was that was cool. I mean, it was young in my career, it was kind of mind-blowing back then. Um, but you know, you think about it all today, uh it's it's kind of surreal. Like, yeah, you know, the the the deals, the transactions, how thing how we did business back then versus how we're doing business now. Um, I mean, the sales have you know been somewhat consistent and whatnot. You know, we've we've lost some and added others. Um the internet has definitely changed, you know, a lot of things. Um I can look at a lot more deer from my office versus uh your pickup truck. Yeah. But uh yeah. Um I'll always remember that trip. I'll always remember, you know, getting started, um, you know, getting into the uh getting into the business. Um even back then I never really thought that I would own deer. Um there's always something that was uh I thought was cool, never really thought it'd be in the cards for me.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Um, but I think, you know, staying in contact with you, you know, after you went back to Pennsylvania and I stayed in New York. Then I got involved in um, you know, I got involved working at a ranch um in the breeding market, um kind of went through some different jobs or whatever, working my way up and then uh, you know, eventually owned my own deer. I think I kept a couple of them at your place for a little too long. Yeah. You know, while I was trying to get ground ready and sure and whatnot. But um, yeah, there's there's some serious history between the two of us, and yeah, it's curious where the next 20 years bring us.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, well, up and up. It it it's funny because like um the you mentioned a couple things, and the industry has changed a bunch. So like back in the day, like people would stud their bucks out a lot more than they do today. Like, that's not the norm today, and a lot of that comes with regulatory restrictions. But like people like you mentioned, like, hey, can I bring five does to breed with that buck? Like, that happened all the time, you know, and like there was a there was a big segment of the industry that did not do AI, and like they would go buy live breedings and like they would shuffle those, you know, back from Indiana over or wherever. Um, that happened a bunch, and it's like it's always neat. A lot of those uh I s I think a lot of those pedigrees are kind of gone, right? Like, you know, deer have lives and attrition, and they they kind of move on um over the years, but like uh it was neat to it was it's neat to see that transition, and then you mentioned like the internet and looking at deer in your office. Like that just didn't happen. Like the only time you saw deer is somebody mailed you 35 millimeter photos, like digital digital photography was like just kind of coming on, and like it it was okay, you know what I mean? Like it was okay, but like that wasn't a thing, and now you can have access to anything you want, anytime you want, pretty much. Um, there's so many resources and pictures, and it's just crazy.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Well, and I mean again, back to the does, you know. I mean, I I remember I used to, you know, call people and uh write them a letter and say, hey, you know, can you send them a letter? Send me a dough list, you know. Um, I mean, I used to put self-addressed stamped envelopes in a letter and you know, try to get nowadays. We just go on nadar and look at stuff and see who's got what or where, you know, if you're looking for a specific line or whatnot, or but uh yeah, I mean, I I I remember sending, I mean, I'd sit down and write 15, 20 letters, send them out to the breeders uh with an envelope and you know, wait weeks and weeks and weeks and maybe get two or three people that actually put together a dough list and sent it back, and then they'd throw some pictures and stuff in there. And um, but yeah, if you wanted to go look at deer, you had to hop in your truck. Yeah. You had to dedicate some time, drive around. Um and and you know what? I mean, I've been doing a little bit more of that lately, uh, especially, you know, with the ranch. Um, you know, looking looking at genetics, looking at bucks, um, different stuff like that. I mean, I I I think sometimes photos can do both things, right? Um, they can do the the deer a service or a disservice, you know. Um, some of them look better, some of them um not so much. But uh I just enjoy it. You know, I enjoy going to the I've been going a lot more shows the last few years. I've been doing a lot more farm tours and visits. Um I enjoy it. I recommend people do it, especially for new people getting into the business. Uh, and having that time that you can that you can chat with people and you know, on their property, uh, I think is uh super beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

Yeah, people love um at least most of the deer farmers I know, like they they love when people stop by and visit with them and they can kind of show their deer to people and you can see different facilities and like there's always something to learn, right? Like there's there's so much ingenuity of the of the uh the American farmer, right, in the in the deer space. Like somebody just has this little quirky thing that they do at their place, and you're like, oh, I need to do that, right? And like the only way you would ever find that out is either through conversation with that person or actually seeing it. Because like they don't even think about it, and it could just be like uh an interesting gate setup or some little special latch in a handling facility that just makes it cool, right? And like there's all these different things, and like you have to get out and experience those, and you know, those those people are are you know, they're never gonna be like, hey, I created this this thing, and or they just don't think about it like that. It's just part of their just part of their farm. Um so that that's pretty cool. Um, I I wanna I wanna get in. You had mentioned like getting your first year. I wanna I want to talk about that a bit. Um and like talk about like how you kind of grew into where you are today. Um so hit hit hit that hit that first part of that story up with you know getting some doughs and what you kind of did.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Well, I mean, honestly, my first two does were um I don't even know what they were. They were just deer. Uh I think they, you know, brown deer. Brown deer. Brown deer. They were just brown, yeah. They uh um, you know, back then, you know, you you had a lot of uh animal buyers and you know, brokers and stuff like that. And remember this guy calling me and he's like, hey, I got you know, I got a couple deer, and I was like, Yeah, I I want them. Um no pedigree, no nothing. They were just heck, they might have come out of a zoo. I'm not sure. Um, and uh so I bought those deer and quickly, like even before the first breeding season, they were gone. I got rid of them, you know. Uh, and I think I was working with you and um, you know, uh, you know, bought I don't even remember exactly what the first ones were, but I remember that I bought some does and had them down at your place. There's like eight or eight or nine of them, I think. Yeah. Bought some does, had them down at your place, uh, you know, started started building uh you bought one at Dustin's too. Dustin Dustin Worrell.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Red red uh three.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Oh, red 362. Yeah, yeah. That was like my first deer ever bought in a sale. Well, in G Ranger. When we bought G Ranger as a buck font. Yeah. Um yeah. So, you know, I finally I finally uh bought a deer to sale. Yeah, 362. She's still very heavily. In my program uh today. And then so yeah, 362 G Ranger. I think where did we buy G Ranger? Was that Ohio? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

There were so many sales back then. Like that's what like now it's like you have like top 30 Nadifa, and then you have like the state sales, and that's kind of it. But like we had like there was many Texas sales. There was the the Texas Northern sale, there was the Midwest Select. John Yoder had sales prior to the Midwest Select. And then you had um you had the PA sale. That was kind of like I'd say that was like in line or just right under top 30 Midwest Select. Um and then you had Ohio, they had that giant stalker auction. That's and that, you know, that's still that still reigns true today. But like there was um I don't think there was other there was not other state sales like that. Like those sales didn't exist. Not that I recall. I mean there was fundraisers for associations, but like Indiana, Illinois, all that, like they didn't have like the state sales like we know them today.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Yeah. I want to say, I mean, I know that we bought we bought G Ranger off of Michael Weaver, but I think it was it was in one of I think it was the Matt was it the mass sale? I I don't remember. Oh that's right.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Mark Mark had his sale that he ran. That's right. And that was different, that was different than the stalker sale that um Kevin Grace had at the time because he he was doing all the Ohio stuff. Yeah, maybe it was.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

I just remember it was it was uh G Ranger was the first buck fawn born out of a Maxbow Ranger dough. Yes, I believe the Maxbow Ranger was one of those ones that you had to bring your doughs, you know, to be live bred.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Or buy breeder bucks from from uh Levi.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Yeah. So I I'm I think Michael, it was a fawn out of a fawn that year. And that's how we ended up with G Ranger. So G Ranger was, you know, like one of the first bucks to ever come out of the Maxwell Ranger dough, which was super appealing to me. Um, so yeah, I I think I was on the phone, you were at the sale, and uh, and we were just we were bidding on it. We we paid we paid good money for that that buck back in the day. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Yeah, there was like two tiers of pricing. It was like poor man's pricing, and then like everything else was high. Like there were no cheap good deer, so to speak. Like they just really didn't exist. Uh uh every once in a while you'd find one, right? Like somebody'd miss something, but like the supply was different, you know, because the the market just kept expanding, expanding, expanding. Um I mean at that time we had a thousand farms in our state, something like that. Like we like we had a lot of farms, there was a lot of farms across the country. Um but yeah, that was uh yeah, that was cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

I remember uh I don't remember exactly how much we paid for it, but it was a lot of money for a bot farm.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yes. Too much, probably. I've done that I've done that a couple times. Yeah, anymore. I've paid way too much for too many deer. So that happens. I think it still happens.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Well, he he bred at your place for a couple years, and then I had I got my place built, and then you know, he came up to New York, you know, when we had when we could still move deer uh before the post. But um, I mean, all in all, I mean, yes, it was a lot of money, but I think we got our money's worth out of him, you know, the the breedings and everything that we made. I mean, there's still um a lot of G Ranger genetics uh in my farm, you know, way way back in the pedigree nowadays, but uh um he's still got a lot of influence.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

People call that an investment.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yeah, it was an investment for sure.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, that's always that's always the uh when something's too much, you're just like, oh, it's an investment.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Well, I mean, uh But yeah, you're right. We there was definitely a bunch of offspring that came out of him.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Yeah. And you know, and I had some does down at your place. I think he did he breed some of those does down there, or did I move them?

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I can't I can't remember. I know I know that uh I think you wanted to breed that group of does to him. I want to say most of that first group of does we brought up was was bred to him. Um I think I had a buck. I had like icon and mirage that were there, and I think they did a bit of breeding. And then G Ranger was there, and Big Fuzz was in the pen with G Ranger and he was two. I think that's how it went. Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, Big Fuzz, uh there's a lot of Big Fuzz influence at my farm still. Yeah. Uh you know, you look you look back at at uh or you look at some of the current bucks, and I can see a lot of big fuzz um in those deer. So that was uh again, that was uh I wish I had a pen full of ten big fuzzes.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Um I think everybody does. If it so uh big fuzz was uh was a a 200-inch uh 10-point with split G2 at three, which is a handful, and then he was an A-point from then on out, and you know he's like one eight mid-180s. Um, but he was a big deer, like he was just like a for what I think I think that was that big guy coming through. Um, although like you have uh so his mom's a drifter daughter, and like I know I know you've read a bit with Romeo from Glenn Dice, and like those couple Romeo sons, you you said they were big, and like Glenn, like with Dan and I went down to uh DC here a couple weeks ago for the Nadifa flying, and uh Glenn Dice uh from down in Chambersburg was with us, and Romeo came up and he said like Romeo was just like an absolute hog, and maybe that was the double BJ on the bottom. So it's all then Wisconsin genetics, they were just just big, big animals, and of course, we weren't weighing stuff back then, like nobody was weighing anything, but uh yeah, for whatever reason, Big Fuzz was a he was a stretcher breaker for sure, and uh you you bred with him quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Yeah, I would I breed with him two or three years, yeah. I I I can't remember. Um, I mean it seems like it was yesterday, but it was actually years again, it was years ago. Yeah, but uh yeah, those I mean uh 44, 49, those Romeo sons that I had, they were giants, they were beautiful. Um, you know, I I've mainly focused on northern genetics. Uh I did add a little bit of Texas influence um, you know, recently. Uh just I mean, I don't know if people listening uh have seen Black Widow, but you know, we went out to Ivan's event there and and uh we we saw Black Widow in person. I was like, holy moly, that thing that that that's a heck of a beer. And then uh they did a really nice thing for uh for Levi out there um where they you know auctioned off uh some straws and Black Widow was in there, and um I bought that straw um and used it on my farm um you know last year. So I I do have I have very few, but I do have some with a little bit of Texas influence in them these days. Um but I'd say uh more than 90% of my herd is still um northern genetics. I've I've kind of stuck with the northern genetics. Um I feel like I'm in the northern region. I don't know why I like to pick up big heavy deer, but um they seem to be pretty popular with the hunters.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Um and uh when when there's no ground shrinkage, man, when you walk up on those things, or even even you know, working in the in the farm, um you know, say you got a dart a buck or whatever, and you walk up to it and you're like, oh boy, I hope my brother's nearby to move this guy. Yeah, I need some help.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah, shout shout out to the uh to the double H crew. If if you um uh Ohio does their their you know event each year for their stalker and breeder sale. And um the crew at Double H puts on a a farm tour and a you know an event, and of course pretty much the consensus was that nobody had really seen a deer like like Black Widow, because like he and like there are tons of big bucks out in in their pens. Like, let's let's not discount that. And like he stands like a cut above them, like he's so big. Uh and then like uh I I do recall, I think it was last year. I think it was last year at Nadifa. That was the first time I saw his antlers, and they were sitting on the scoring table, and like they just stand out, like his frame is just giant, so um, definitely, definitely one to look at. Like, if you want to breed for you know big frames, like it's kind of an easy choice. Like, he's a toad.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Well, I mean, you know, again, you know, given given Alan, Ivan, uh, the whole entire Hostetler family, uh, you know, props, what a fun event. I mean, besides the big deer, right? The the event that they put on um is a phenomenal event. Uh, there's tons of big deer. Uh it's it's an it's a it's a an event in it, I don't know how to say it, um, but it's it's worth going to. Yeah. And uh, you know, hundreds of people. Hundreds of people, it's kind of I don't I don't even know how to explain it right now. You know, it's everybody's there, there's food, there's music, there's farm tours. I mean, it's like they roll out the red carpet for everybody, right? There's there's multiple vehicles, you know, giving people uh rides, showing them different stuff, opening up their homes. I mean, I think there was like a bounce house, a huge tent, um, a food truck. It was awesome. And then to see the deer that are there, right? So, so not alone just the event, but then you go and see the the genetics that they've put together. I mean, shoot, I mean, talking about history. I mean, I remember when Ivan and Alan were just getting into it.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

You know, and to see what they've created throughout the years, uh, is amazing. Um, and then you you know, you see Black Widow out there, and then you see some of the Black Widow offspring that was out there. Um Major League Whitetails, they they got a buck uh that they call Chaos, um, which is a Black Widow's son going back to some of Eddie Ray's genetics that we love so much. Um got a wicked frame on him, beautiful two-year-old. I can't wait to see what he does this year.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Uh so and the property's incredible too. Like, if you want to see like a just epically managed, thought out, manicured, just beautiful piece of of deer farm property, like that's a showcase farm for sure. Like I don't know how they I don't know how they do it. I because like my my farm doesn't look like that. It's it's awesome, right? Like it's just uh like the the gravel lanes are like perfectly in place, and uh you know the landscaping and the shrubbery and the the pond and like just the whole thing is just like what a top rate facility and you know a top rate family, like every one of them, like they're so nice, like they just welcome you in. So if you get a chance to go to the Ohio event, make sure you go the day before on Wednesday, um, and go to the summer picnic, farm tour, whatever. Like it's it's just such a good time. Like they they do such a nice job, and like it's it's free, like they they cover the cost of everything. Like it's just it's it's a it's a great, great thing for our industry. So shout out again to them.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah. The other thing too, you know, one of the one of the things that I noticed, you know, being around their property, uh, kind of showcases what's so great about the deer industry, right? Their farm, you know, is in an aged region, but there's a lot of pieces of that property that you wouldn't necessarily think to raise livestock on. You know, they've got some, you know, they've got some steep terrain, they've got some wooded areas. Um, they've obviously hauled in a lot of rock and culverts and you know, made it usable, but um, you know, being able to to have a livestock market on that property is just a testament of our industry that you can that you can, you know, be in you don't have to have hundred-acre pastures and be a beef operation. You can have uh, you know, you can have woods, you can have hills, you can. I mean, I feel bad for those guys having to mow some of that stuff. It looks a little scary. Yeah, but uh, you know, or haul books out of the bottom. Yeah, yeah, but I mean it uh there's proof right there, right? Yeah, you see what they're raising, you see the quality of their animals. I mean, their animal husbandry is and it all is is as high as they can possibly get. Um, but you know, on a piece of ground that most people wouldn't probably think to have livestock on, uh, they're able to have you know um white-tailed eer and be at the top of the game. Yeah, you know, there's no doubt those guys are at the top. They're they're they're one of the they're one of the best in the country these days.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And uh so it's kind of neat, you know, and especially for people, even myself, I'm like, well shit. Or that double H can, you know, run on that steep ground. I could probably use this piece of ground that's that's uh that's steep and um just don't ask Dan and Josh to fence it. Yeah, right. I'll probably I mean I'm uh there's there's some there's some ground that I've been looking at lately that uh not looking forward to fencing it, but uh once it's done, it'll be really nice. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Um let's hop back to the those uh core does and that uh trip in. So you you you get these um you get that first group of does, and you had a closed herd for like ten years. I mean you probably I think you still have a closed herd, but um like you went from ten deer to four hundred. Talk yeah, talk us through that, talk us through that process.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Well, I think the first first group I brought up was nine does and two bucks. I think that's what we started with. I just had three or four pens back then. I've gone through a couple expansions, but when we were it was right during the time where we were moving the animals that were down at your place, uh New York decided to close their borders. And I think there were still a few animals we were trying to get in, and they locked it down. That was it. We couldn't move any more animals, and uh so yeah, I built everything off of those uh original doughs. I've never brought anything in since then. Uh I mean I've done embryos and and semen, of course, artificial semination. Um, but uh, but yeah, everything I've built, I mean, I think I'm running right, I cut back a little bit, and I think I'm running right around 300 animals right now on the on the farm. But yeah, at one point I was I was north of 400 for sure, and and everything on our farm was was built uh off of those original doughs. Yeah, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Um I for for whatever reason I was I was searching uh my emails um and I typed George into my search bar and because I was looking for an email from uh a guy and I found an email from George Merrill. Yeah, I think he was the old state vet or something like that. And it was the denial for moving animals into New York. It said, like, we're we're closed, like we're not we're not letting animals in anymore. Um, and I didn't read through the whole thing, I just saw his name. I skimmed through it, and it was like we're we're officially closing our borders, uh, you know, PA, blah blah blah. And I was just like, Oh, that was funny. And that was like three days ago.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

So it's pretty rare. There's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Yeah. George Merrill. Yeah, he was uh he was um in charge of our service program up here in um in New York. Uh you know, we've gone through a couple since George. George was there for a long time. Um I think he's still I think he's still up north, uh, back on the dairy. You know, he's got a his family's got a dairy operation. But uh yeah, I haven't heard that name. Man, we are going down memory lane right now. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Um, okay, so you you you get up to scale. Um let's transition into the into the ranch because I think that's a an interesting story with with Batonkill. Um, because like you and I had been there. Man, I don't even remember when, a long time ago. And like I this is my memory of it. Of course, you're there all the time, so yours is probably different. But like I remember pulling in and there's like a hundred fallow deer in the front, I call it the front yard, but like there's a hundred fallow deer in that front pasture, like there was a pile of them, and I was just like, I'm not a fallow guy. All the fallow guys listening, don't hate on me. I'm just not a fallow guy. And I was just like, Well, where would like where's the whitetails? And of course, there's they had whitetails and elk and all this stuff. So walk us through the beginning to to today, because it's much different.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

So we went up to Bat and Kill, you know, back when we did that original fencing project, um, and just kind of wanted to introduce myself. You know, I learned about the operation, wanted to learn more about it. They had all sorts of different animals up there. They had a small whitetail breeding operation, but they had a lot of exotics and different things like that. Uh fallow deer, seeked deer, uh, wild boar, rams, elk. I mean, I don't even know what all they had up there. They, you know, they had everything. Um they had buffalo, and I was like, wow, this is this is wild. Like, this is crazy. I've never really I didn't I didn't know that that this sort of industry really existed, you know. And um, so you know, as I was building my farm or whatever, you know, I I went up and um, you know, talked to Richard, who owned a Batonkill back then, and just kind of uh, you know, wanted to introduce myself, let him know that I had a farm. We kind of knew each other, you know, throughout the years, but uh I was just kind of letting him know that I had some whitetails and different things like that. And if he ever was in the market to, you know, let me know. You know, we I was selling a couple other ranches back then when I, you know, I didn't really have a whole lot of animals back then, but I had, you know, I had stuff to sell every year. And we can still ship out of New York State. I mean, we still can today. We can't take anything in. Um, but uh, you know, so you're you're making different contacts, and you know, long story short, um I I developed a relationship with Richard up there at the Bat and Kill. And um it was it was for sale years ago, and I was like, wow, I didn't I never thought that it would be for sale, but you know, life, different things happen, people put things up for sale. It didn't sell. Um, it was always kind of a pipe dream, you know. It was always kind of one of those things that's be like, wow, that'd be really cool. Um, but uh never really thought that it would come to fruition. And then randomly, one day I get a call from Richard and he's like, hey, listen, you know, I'm gonna be selling the ranch. Do you happen to know anybody that might be interested, et cetera, et cetera? And you know, I I work for a real estate company as well. Um, I work in the acquisitions department for national real estate company, and one of the owners of the company um is a big hunter. So I was like, hey, listen, you know, there's this property for sale. Um, I'm not sure if it's something you're interested in, or maybe we're interested in it for the company. It's a beautiful piece of ground. Um, it's got some really nice views, it's a big piece. Uh, and and he was like, Yeah, let's go take a look at it. So I called Richard and said, Hey, listen, I I got a guy that wants to come look at it. And in the meantime, he had another partner in the real estate business that's down in Texas, and he's got a couple of high fence ranches as well. So he's like, Hey, I'm gonna see if uh if Davy wants to, you know, come up and and take a look at this with us. Okay, cool. You know, I never really met Davy or anything like that, just knew he was a hunter, and I'm like, I'm probably gonna get along with him. Sure. And uh so anyways, we went up there and uh, you know, did a little tour. We actually we actually did a hunt. Um we we shot a fallow deer and um one of the other guys shot a Sika deer. And uh so we're up there, we're checking it out, and you know, I they knew that it was for sale and you know, Richard wanted to sell it. We ended up sitting down at the dining table and in a matter of like 30 minutes put a deal together. And I'm like, holy crap! Yeah, like this is happening. Is this real? Yeah, you know, I mean something that you that you thought was was uh unobtainable just became real. And uh so you know, I didn't really know where we were headed with it or what we were gonna do with it, and just kind of talking to those guys, they said, hey, listen, the real estate is is worth every penny. You know, it's a beautiful piece of property. Um let's run some hunts, let's let's operate the facility and see how it goes. Um, you know, if it goes well, it goes well. If it doesn't, you know, the there's there's value in the property, and you know, being a national real estate company, we'll you know, we figure out probably what's best to do with it. But we haven't had to do that because um it's going well. It's going really well. Um we did get rid of all the fallow deer and all the seeker deer that were there, and they did have a couple different pastures that were kind of cut up a little bit different. And we've actually acquired uh three other pieces of property that touch uh the original piece. So we've made it bigger. Um, you know, we're we're focusing primarily on whitetail. We've got a little passion project uh with the Rocky Mountain elk. And uh, you know, but we don't we don't do a lot of elk hunting. Like last year we shot one bull. I mean, I really I want them I want them to all you know be 400 inches or bigger, and um that's that's not the that's not the main business that we've got going on. Um so mainly it's the whitetails.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah. What um so when you when you first kind of like you see this deal go down and like you really don't know what's going on, you're like this is awesome, but I I don't know what to make of this. Um at least in the in the years coming forward. Um did it take a few years to kind of figure out that you wanted to go whitetail only? Like what was that what was that process? Because like you have this inventory there, right? Like there's already established herds of animals, there's clients obviously that have hunted that. Um what did that look like? But before you get to that, tell us about the area itself, because it's it's kind of strategically located in a I think kind of unique and historic placement um geographically.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, I mean it's uh I tell every I mean we're an hour north of Albany, right on the Vermont border. I mean, the property literally stares at the Green Mountains of Vermont. We're right in the southern Adirondack region, so we're in that agricultural area, but then you also have rock and uh you know mountains. And um and honestly, I mean I've been on a lot of properties. I've worked at other ranches, I've hunted all over the place. Um, it's one of the best hunting properties, you know, that that I've been on. Uh it it hunts great. Um, the the travel corridors, the natural patterns, the landscape, the water, the egg, everything about it, the hardwoods, the softwoods. It's got a mixture of everything. Um, it's easy travel in and out. You know, we got Albany International Airport, which is right there. You know, we're 30 minutes from Manchester, Vermont, where like Orvis's headquarters is, and there's a bunch of shopping and different stuff there. You can shoot 40, 50 minutes uh to the west, and you're right in Saratoga. You know, if you want to go to the horse track or the casino, or there's lots of shopping and food. Um, so you know, there is some busy, busy areas around us, and then there's like our little slice of heaven, right? Um, so it it's definitely strategically located. There is a lot of history. I mean, part of our lodge was built in the late 1800s. Um, you know, there's there's some war cemeteries, there's some historical landmarks, the Batonkill River, you know, world-renowned fishing. Um the White Creek, which feeds the Batonkill, actually goes through our right through our property, and there's some great fishing there. Um, you know, you can jump over the Meadowwees close by, the Black Creek. Um, you know, so it's kind of a a sportsman's little paradise. You know, we got a good wild turkey population. We get some woodcock and some grouse from time to time. We got some waterfowl ducks and geese. Um, so it's it's uh it's definitely a unique piece of property. We're very thankful that we had the opportunity um to buy it. Uh I'm I never thought that I'd be a part of it, and and now here I am running it. Yeah. So, but now back to what you were asking, you know, the fallow deer and the seekader. So they had some whitetails, they had fallow deer, they had some seeked deer, and there was a small group of red stag um that were there when we purchased the property. They had kind of done a little bit of a fire sale, um, you know, towards the end of their operation and you know, sold a bunch of stuff. But there was, you know, some fantastic genetics for fallow deer. This was before the fallow deer craze kind of took off, right? Uh, and some fantastic genetics for the Sika deer. And and we shot some giants. We raised some big ones, we shot some big ones, but it just seemed like the clientele, there wasn't as many people at that time looking for you know, the big fallow and the big Sika. And you know, our phone was ringing for whitetails, right? Um, the phone always rings for whitetails, no matter any place I've worked at, whitetails is is probably the number one species that everyone's looking for. So um I kind of threw the idea by the owners and I said, listen, you know, we've we've got this section of the ranch that is being utilized for the fallow and seco. We didn't have everything running together. Um, well, let me back up a little bit. So there was the 300-acre ranch across the street, and that had the red stag on it. And the the quality of genetics, I mean, red stag are fun, but the the genetics had weren't really producing what I thought they should be producing. So we decided that we were gonna, you know, depopulate that herd. You know, we did it through hunting. We we offered some discounts and had people come in and hunt. And we ended up, you know, um, you know, harvesting all the all the animals that were over there. And then I interjected some whitetail genetics over there. And we had talked about maybe putting some higher quality red stag genetics back in there. I did a little feeler with some advertising uh for some red stag. And you know, at the time, we just didn't really get the response that we thought it needed in order to make that sort of investment. So we just ran whitetails over there. And then, you know, kind of the same thing happened with the Fowl and Sika. We sh we shot some giants, we got good money for them, but you know, they were taking up a pretty good section of ground. Um, you know, that piece in the main ranch, I think was like 350 acres or something. That like I said before, there was a little bit of divisional fence uh in between some of the stuff. So I talked with the owners and said, hey, what do you think about you know getting rid of the fallow and the seeker deer and taking down the taking down the fence and just making it one big piece and just focusing 100% on whitetails? And they were on board, you know. I mean, our feed bill was substantial, uh, with all I mean, there was hundreds of fallows and seek, and um and they typically have singles, right? So the replacement on the herd is it takes a little bit longer versus the whitetails. So we made the decision that we were gonna uh we were gonna depopulate the fallow and the sea. Um I tried to, you know, work some deals um in order to sell them and whatnot. You know, we ended up just it took us a couple years, but we ended up harvesting them all. And then um we took down that fence in between. And at that time we had bought one of the pieces of property. So I took all that fence down that was in between to make one big ranch, and I used all that fence and fenced in the new property. So not only do we know triple the size of our whitetail property, then we then added to it as well. So, and and honestly, I think it was a smart move. Um, you know, when you're focused on whitetail and whitetail habitat, whitetail feed program, you know, we do some cropping, we do some hay, some soybeans and stuff like that on the property as well. I think it's I think it's been beneficial for our whitetail herd and our whitetail business.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Yeah. You guys have uh right at like a thousand acres, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Yeah, we're we're right around a thousand acres. I mean, technically, I think it's like 982 or something. Um and it's it's divided into two ranches, right? We've got the 300 acres across the across the way, and then uh just shy 700 acres. Well, now it's over. Sorry, let me yes, now we're over. I was thinking back to the original uh parcel. Uh so we're over 700 acres uh on the main the the big ranch we call it, and then the White Creek ranch is is 300 acres.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Nice. Um as you um as you started to reduce that uh animal number down, specifically the like the Sika and the and the fallows, and then started. I'm assuming you used a lot of your own genetics that you had been building up over the years to start introducing that whitetail herd. Uh what's that what's that look like? I'm uh I'm just curious how you know like the animals transition through the stocking phase and how you've managed that.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Well, it's kind of weird. It's weird, funny. I don't know what you want to call it, but when I I put six does and um five bucks on the White Creek Ranch, you know, to start with. And then I had a friend uh up here in New York and he had a breeding operation and a hunting ranch, and he decided that he wanted to get out of the breeding operation. So uh I bought his entire breeding farm off of him, and I did interject some of those genetics uh into the into the White Creek Ranch, and we had another section of the big ranch that we called Whitetail Ridge. So, you know, I bought those animals from him. Uh, he gave me, you know, a really good deal. Uh it was a good deal for him because I took everything. It was a good deal for me, um, you know, individually priced or as a package group versus individually priced. So, you know, but I didn't we didn't you we didn't have a large number of animals that we interjected right out of the gate. Um, you know, with the amount of fallow deer and seek a deer and red stag and the animals that were there, you know, the habitat definitely took a little bit of a hit, right? The browse line was was pretty high. A lot of the grazing areas, I think towards the end of Richard's, you know, uh time up there. I don't know that he was really putting a whole lot of money into the ground, lime fertilizer, you know, seeding, um, tillage, stuff, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

So, you know, I really focused on that for the first few years. You know, we we we ran in there right out of the gate, soil samples. Um, you know, at our real estate company, we've we've got a really good forester, Christian Gear War. We had him come in, take a look at the woods, you know, give us, you know, some of his professional advice and um, you know, trying to we'd we dumped a lot of a lot of money into the ground. Um, lime, seed, tillage work. Um, I made a deal with a local dairy farmer that, you know, we'd let him harvest some of the crops if he'd let us use some of his equipment because you know, they've got big equipment for working ground and stuff like that. So, you know, in the beginning we we didn't uh interject a whole lot of stuff, but over time, you know, I've always tried to add every year, and and we do a lot with does, right? Uh I've I do have a pretty good doe herd running on the ranches, and and they seem to be producing fairly well. Um, you know, we we've had some losses, but I think relatively speaking, it's been pretty successful. Uh, and the animals that are raised out on the ranch, um, you know, they seem to be doing great. Um I mean, I was I was out there a couple nights ago just riding around, the boys and I, we've got this little fishing thing going on. We know there's a couple uh ponds on the property. And then one of my, well, he's an employee now, but he was an intern from Texas. Uh, you know, we built a minnow pond and whatever. So we were going up there to to check and see how the bait ponds were doing, and he's just kind of riding around the ranch. I'm like, man, like I didn't really think it could get better than the year before. Now I start seeing, you know, the amount of animals and the antler growth and everything that's happening out there. Um, and it's just kind of a testament to, you know, putting that money and time into the ranch and not just buying a bunch of animals and turning them loose. I think was I think was the right move, right? To to get that habitat right.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

And um yeah, we've we've uh we had uh uh Jared Berry from Powder Ridge on, and you know, Jared talks a lot about his uh management of his property. Talks less so about the animals and and more so about the about the property, right? Like timber projects and you know strategizing about clear cuts and plantings and just all these different things that make these uh properties, you know, Shangri-La for these deer. And like it sounds like you're you're doing the same thing, right? Like it's it's everything's for the whitale and the the the you know the commercial hunting side of this um and the experience that people get by coming and and harvesting animals with you, um pays the bills, right? Like it allows you to keep keep this property going and and you know preserve that habitat. Like it's not a you know, a thousand acres isn't uh a small piece of ground. And like I suspect like a developer wanted to come in and put a you know uh large lot development in, um it'd probably be worth a whole bunch of money, but like you get to you get to keep keep the landscape um for wildlife.

SPEAKER_00 59:09

I mean, yeah, I mean I work for a development company, right? Sure. It's kind of uh it's kind of it's kind of interesting, but uh, you know, our the the owners here, I mean, they're big hunters, they're big into conservation, and and uh, you know, we've we've been able they enjoy the property as well, and and they they see the asset that we're that we're creating. Um it's not just about the hunting operation, but it's the it's the property as well. And and and back to Jared, I mean, Jared's done a phenomenal job. I've always watched kind of what he's got going on and what he's doing. Um he's he is he's into it, you know. He's he's his planting, his forestry programs, uh, his property management um is is second to none. Uh he does a phenomenal job with that, and and I think he's he's really seeing the results of all that labor that he's put in. And I think it's a it's a real love of his too, right? Sure. And it's a love of mine. I mean, I you know, I remember looking at the fields when we got there and the brush and the goldenrod and the this and the that, you know, and now we're you know planting soybeans and harvesting hay, and and that's another part of our business as well. We do sell some uh we do sell some crop and uh and that you know helps with some bills and whatnot as well. So it's not just for the deer, uh, but I think the deer benefit greatly from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Yeah. Well, Dan, I appreciate you coming on and uh catching up on some old memories and and telling us telling us um a bit about your uh your journey into to bat and kill. Where can people find uh more about your yourself and your your um your hunting ranch?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously the internet is the the way everybody you know looks at stuff these days. We were talking about that earlier. So you just go to uh NY New York, you know, New YorkHunts.com, nyhunts.com. That'll bring you right to our bat and kill page.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:04

That's a killer domain, NYHunts.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

Yeah, it was pretty. I mean, I couldn't believe that it was available. But we have we have bat, you know, the name of our proper name of our business is Bat and Kill Farms. You can go to bat and killfarms.com uh if you want to go that route. But uh yeah, no, I appreciate you having me on the show. I know we kind of bounced around a little bit there, and you know, there's there's a lot of memories, there's a lot of I mean, there's a lot of different things that we've that we've gone through.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:30

Uh I appreciate your time and and being on the podcast. And you know, hopefully, uh hopefully people watch the podcast and you know want to get into our industry. And if I can ever help anybody out or um give you some of my knowledge, or if you're looking to start a hunting ranch or you're looking to get into the breeding world, or however I can help, uh I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Well, we appreciate that, Dan. Um we'll we'll definitely have you back on. I know you do a whole bunch of other things within our industry, and uh we'll we'll cover those in future shows. So thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

All right, thank you, Josh.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:05

And with that, stay tuned for another episode of the Deer Wizard Podcast.