Episode 7.1 - What on (Flat) Earth?!

Flat Earth, Conspiracies & the Science of Belief

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In this episode of What on Earth, we take on one of the most persistent and fascinating conspiracy theories out there: Flat Earth.

We start with a simple question: what on Earth makes people believe the Earth is flat?

We explore how long humanity has known that Earth is a sphere, from ancient Greek observations to early measurements of Earth’s circumference, and why, despite this, Flat Earth ideas still exist today. It turns out the story isn’t just about science, but about trust, perception, and how we process information.

This episode is part science, and part navigating the strange (and sometimes entertaining) ways we try to make sense of reality.

So grab your favorite mug - we definitely did - and join us for a deep dive into facts, beliefs, and everything in between.

Stay curious and keep asking yourself… What on Earth?!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome, welcome to our little corner of the internet when we yap about the earth while drinking tea in a funny mag. Tika, do you have your mag with hell yes?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

It says, I'm a trilittle bit of a nerd.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

I love it. I love that. Um yeah, my my Mac actually doesn't say anything, but it's the mag I got for my PhD defense from good one. And uh today we are going to be busy uh because we will be touching a lot of topics uh which are grouped together under one banner of conspiracy theory. And we'll be talking about flat Earth, conspirational thinking, we will be talking about why people tend to believe in conspiracies and what is wrong with it's just a theory statement. Um, and generally I think it's quite important topic, especially nowadays, when we see a lot of misinformation, when we see a lot of fake news, when we see increasing mistrust in science. And of course, I will not be talking about every single conspiracy there is because it's way too many. So let's focus on the one closest to home. Let's do it. Flat Earth. And for us as geologists, the whole idea of flat earth might be a bit trivial and sometimes funny, but there is a small percentage of people who do believe that Earth is flat and that we are all tricked by NASA or Freemasons or aliens, lizard people. Um so I will make you guess, Tika. How many percentage of population do believe in flat Earth?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I think I think I heard something about this lately. I think in America, in the US, it was like 7%, right? Pretty high, in my opinion. I think overall it's a bit lower, so maybe 5%.

unknown 2:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

So there was a 2018 study made by UGOF on 8,000 responders, uh, showing that 84% always believed that the Earth is a sphere. 5% always believed that it's round, but recently started having doubts. 2% went straight to flat. And 2% always believe that it's flat, but recently start having doubts. And we also are gonna talk about that because that's interesting, group of population. How do you change someone's mind? Because this is something we who like science and who are um advocating for science should talk with people who disbelieve in science.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

It's one of the most difficult things in science communication as well, changing someone's mind and changing someone's behavior, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

It's really interesting topic. And of course, this doesn't adapt to 100%. There's also 7%, which we're not sure and had other opinions. So, as you can see, it's quite a small percentage, I would say, uh, but they are very vocal. And it's really funny because uh one of the uh like podcasters I like to listen to, uh, she said that she's getting most death threats and like slurs from flat earthers. Um, some like, let's see what happened after this episode. Please don't send us any mean messages. And if you want to send us a mean message, show it to your mom and ask, Mom, would you like to receive a message like this? If the answer is no, maybe just don't hit the send button.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

We are fragile, don't be mean.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Exactly. So we right now established that 2% of the population do believe that Earth is flat, and that another two believe it's flat, but they are on the like flip. And it's quite interesting that in 2025, as we record this podcast, there are people who really strongly believe in flat Earth, given that we are suspecting that the Earth is a sphere since Pythagoras. Then at the 4th BC, Aristotle also was supporting the view of Pythagoras. And then we have the head librarian of Alexandria around 3rd BC, who measured the circumference of the earth by measuring the distance from Cienne to Alexandria. And he was off by like 10%. So that's insane that already so early on, science or very early science arithmetic, could already predict that Earth is not flat. Let's put it right there from the get-go. Nobody in our group believes that the earth is flat. So uh let's let's have it out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I try to believe it just because to see it from a different point of view, um, I failed. It is round. All over the globe we know the earth is round.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

And then even in so-called dark ages, uh Middle Ages, the Catholic monks and generally Catholic uh Church supported the view of Earth as a sphere. Even when there was still the point of view when Earth is the center of the universe, we were still spherical.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

This is a first for me. Like are we agree with the church, let alone the Catholic Church? I'm baffled. They are not as bad as I thought.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, yeah. At least they believe in you know sphere earth. Yeah, let's give them that.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

And uh not only Catholic Church, also like Islam agreed that Earth is a sphere. And funnily enough, this knowledge was not limited to the scholars of that time, because even less educated people, like sailors, understood that the earth is not flat by simply observing the surrounding. So this is like one of those uh things which I'm I was at least taught at school, I don't know how it was for Utica, that one of the proofs, observations actually, uh, was that sailors observing ships going out of the horizon, so appearing on a horizon, they appear from the sail down. So, you know, if you have if you imagine a curve and you come behind the curve, you would start seeing fast the top sail, and then slowly, slowly the the whole ship would emerge.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah, I don't think we discussed it much um on uh in school. I think it was just a given. The earth is round. Uh I th we we did discuss the heliocentric versus geocentric view, so the Copernicus, which we will probably talk about later. Um but yeah, it it was never debated that the Earth was round.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

At my school we never debated that it's flat, but uh we went through like history of how they determinate it. So like that's why I also I know that the head librarian of Alexandria, there was this experiment when there was a well, I think in Cienne, and then at certain point of the the year the light was shining all the way down, and then you know, based on that in the movement, he could determine the the circumference circumference. It's very difficult.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Just swallow a shadow and you see it's not a straight line.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yeah, exactly. Um so yeah, so you would say, okay, the episode over, right? We already established that earth is not flat because we see sales. But flat earthers do have answers for everything you throw at them. That's why they are so strongly um firm in their beliefs. And they use a lot of like refractoring, and you know, this is just mirage and whatever. Um but we will talk a bit about the way how they are just debating a bit later. Um so let's say that right now we know that even people in people in the middle ages believe that the earth is not flat. And you would think that the flat earth movement is quite recent and centralized in the US because we hear a lot of things coming from US about the flat earth.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

They are allowed.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

They are allowed, they are allowed on Reddit, they are allowed on the internet, they are loud in the comment sections and the YouTube videos. Um, so this, let's say 2% of the population is very vocal about their beliefs. But it actually started not very recent. I was quite surprised when I was doing the research for this episode, that it started in the 19th century by a guy from London named Samuel Robotham.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

I hope I didn't butcher it. Probably I did. This sounds fake. I'm sorry. What did this guy say?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

So he was he was the English uh utopian socialist, flat earther, he was I think the first flat earther uh who wrote Zatetic Astronomy Earth, not a globe. And it started as a pamphlet, and then later on in 1865, it became a book. So we have already a fast book. So uh the movement went up to like 3,000 followers, which is also not a lot, it's still like marginalized. Uh, but it's this was the beginning. Um but besides that, that he was a flat earther, he was also a piece of shit who was selling people life-prolonging mixtures. Ah, I love this type of people. Um, which as you can guess did not work because he died, you know?

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I yeah, I mean, I somehow always admire these kind of people for for their ingenuity in making money. I mean, I don't say it's right, it's definitely not, but still, I'm like, I w I almost wish I thought of that. Because then I would be rich.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Damn, why did I not why did I have my moral backbone to not scam people out of their money to buy mixtures which doesn't work. Like, I'm not really sad, I'm just a little sad. Yeah, it's like, god damn it, my life could be a good one. Why am I a good person? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

That ruins me.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Yeah, definitely. Maybe you should drink a potion which makes you a rich person.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah But first you have to pay, then you're gonna get a course of ten steps which makes you a billionaire. Yeah. Uh isn't it the modern life prolonging mixture all about?

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's it's probably Bitcoin or something. Some some course on Bitcoin or financial advice.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

How to become an investor in ten simple steps.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Like it's that easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Going back to the diversion, yeah. Diversion, of course. I love that. Um But he died in 1884, or did he, or this is what NASA wants you to believe he did.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

We're that deep, huh?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Yeah, exactly. I need my tinfoil hat because, oh girl, like for this episode I went so deep, I don't know if I'm ever gonna resurface.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

We need a picture for social media with this tinfoil hand.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Um, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

We will get more death threats than ever.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

I do have a photo of me in the tinfoil hat from my PhD defense. I don't know if you remember.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

I don't. You were that drunk already? Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Um coming back to you know, to the British guys. Oh, because after this brit, there was another Brit in 1956, again, UK, guy called Samuel Shenton. Another Shenton guy. Founded Samuel, another British guy. Yeah. No all Sam's flat earthers, straight up flat. Uh I don't know any Sam, so I uh that's okay. Um he founded International Flat Earth Research Society based in Denver. Sorry, not Denver, Dover. Sorry guys, Dover. Um and that was a bit out of a bit of unfortunate timing for this guy, as in October 1957 we began the age of space exploration with launch of Sputnik. We've provided a concrete empirical data, fast in the form of like radio signal tracking, and then eventually people came back and they could tell the tale and show the photos.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Um he got debunked almost immediately.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Definitely, definitely. He was like one year after, and he was like, shit, I already have to start debunking, debunking the truth. And again, um this could have been an easy and fast episode, but this guy said whatever every flat earther is saying, that it's deception of the public by the government. The mistrust of government is something which runs very, very deep in uh almost most of the conspiracy uh theories and most of the conspirational thinking. Uh, but here you have a definitely quite significant, and like you you see it straight away because it's like NASA is trying to tell you stuff and uh all the con the government agencies trying to tell you stuff. And because of the space race, the numbers of the people in the International Flat Earth Research Society plummeted from 3,000 to 100. But you know, only because it plummeted doesn't mean that it stopped to exist. Um and then there was uh this guy in California, Charles Johansson, more or less took over, and he founded International Flat Earth Research Society of America. And I could find that in 2009 it had around 500 members, but uh I could not find any more recent numbers, but it's estimated between 3,000 and 3,500 members. And these guys That doesn't sound too bad.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Like that doesn't sound like a lot of people for the noise.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

It doesn't sound like a lot of people, but in the same time, you know, with the age of an internet, I think this is the same uh like problem with those marginalized beliefs or even like incels and extreme misogynists. It's not a lot, it's it's not a large number. It's that they are starting starting to like create the community around it. The moment you you're linking yourself with other people through internet, you create network and then you have this power of like you know commenting and you know snowball effect, I guess. And these guys are strongly advocating for only accepting that which you can see with your own eyes and prove your own efforts, which is gonna be interesting soon.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Uh I should not laugh. Oh, this is this is horrible of me. But others just they're so contradictive sometimes. And yes. At the same time, you don't need to laugh at them because that's the worst thing you can do. Exclude these people that are segregating themselves even more. But uh it's hard not to laugh when you say something like that and still believe Flat Earth.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Yes, exactly. Like, you know, the things you can see with your own eyes, it's literally the sails, right? Like already the ship should tell you something. It's your own eyes, it's not propaganda. It's not that, you know, they they probably they go deeper and be like, these are mirrors of the government which deflects the light. It's always something. You you really, you know, like if they don't want to be convinced, they will come up with million other arguments to tell you that this is something else.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah, they just overflood with stupid stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah. And my favorite quote: world look flat. The bottom of the clouds are flat, and the mo m movement of the sun is flat. Which is funny because none of these are actually true. Because, like, you know, world look flat maybe if you live in Netherlands. But, you know, me living in Switzerland, world is not flat.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

No, you see the curve, you see how you cannot see farther than the curve.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

I mean, I'm I'm laughing because of course they mean as flat as just you know, surface, and they don't mean by mountains, but you know, precision of formulation of the statements. But let's briefly talk about beliefs here. And of course, we will not have time to go and debunk every single belief they have. There are multiple videos on the internet which do that very well, and I'm gonna link them in the description of this episode for our listeners. If you're interested, I did really deep dive, and some of those videos are made by like astrophysicists, so they are much more knowledgeable in debunking it. But I'm gonna show you some pattern which I noticed through like watching these videos, watching also flat earthers videos, uh, reading uh forums that I went down, uh that they are very inconsistent, and this inconsistency builds up because if you look at it from my perspective as someone who spent five years doing PhD research, so who knows how to create science and who knows how to read science, they don't have model, they don't have theory which would explain flat Earth. It literally doesn't work, it doesn't work, but uh let's first introduce how would they look you know how would they show it to us. So you have a north pole and then as a center and everything around it is the earth, right? And then you have a wall of ice around on the rims of the earth, and you cannot go there because NASA would prevent you to go there. Uh that's convenient. I don't know how I don't know how they would prevent you know, like the oceans are freakishly big. How will they know where is like a single boat? You know, you can kayak there. I don't know, like why you're not doing this. But also like you can shoot yourself to space. That's another topic.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

No, that cannot be.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

But like I grouped it to three um very basic ideas which are explainable by spherical earth, and they are trying to prove it by flat earth. But I think it's a perfect moment to take a break. And I would like to invite you to like, subscribe, leave a comment, and join us on Instagram or Facebook to let us know if you actually liked it. I hope you did, and we will meet you next week. So, see you next week. Bye. Thank you for listening. See you next time.