The Windsor Way
The Windsor Way podcast talks honestly and passionately about Linfield Football Club from the perspective of match-going supporters. This is Bluemen on The Blues, home and away.
The Windsor Way
Roy McGivern: Interview Special
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Jason Burke is joined by Mo Brown, David Graham and Haydn Milligan to chat with Linfield Chairman Roy McGivern. Amongst the items discussed were the potential for financial investment in the club, the future of the 5-year plan, and the squad rebuild including news of an 'exciting' signing which has been secured on a pre-contract agreement...
This is Jason Burke for the Windsor Way podcast with me this evening. I have Mo Brown, I have Hayden Milligan, I have David Graham, and we've got a special guest this evening, Infield's chairman, Roy McGivvern. Roy, thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, Jason. Delighted to be here and thanks for inviting me on.
SPEAKER_01And the first item on the agenda is congratulations. Congratulations to you for presiding over as chairman and another trophy in the cabinet. I was looking at on the online today. Is that 12 major trophies I make it now under your tenureship?
SPEAKER_03You've done better research than I have. I wasn't sure the figure. No, but um, yeah, it was a great day. Um that I think league cups of competition has been it's been improving over recent years, a bit more prestige attached, and of course any final against Glen Tornet is one that you want to win. So I think just a superb day for us all. Really enjoyable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I suppose it it puts a it puts a positive note on what has been up to now a fairly mediocre possible could we push it to disappointing season, Roy? What what what do you think what do you make of the season so far?
SPEAKER_03I think in Linfield, Jason, the reality is if you're not challenging uh for a league title, then it it's it's not a it's not a good season. Um so winning the League Cup was was great, but we really sat our solid each season uh to be competing for the Gibson Cup and to be 11 points behind, I suppose, that as we enter the the post-split fixtures, it's it it is certainly disappointing. And I think there have been probably a number of factors for that. Um from my perspective. Um Kelly injuries have have been a factor. You know, it's a a huge blow to use Chris Shields, lose Chris for the season. Um Kieran Offer's went out for a long period of time, and getting him back for 15 minutes only to to go out again with a battle injury was a hammer blow thing to us. But I think it's certainly it's clear to us all, um, board members, supporters, that you know, we do need a refresh in the squad over the summer. There's been a lack of consistency right across the season. Um I think we need sort of strength, strength in in various areas, a bit more creativity in the team, a bit more pace in the team. And that will be the sort of that that'll be our our strategy of the summer to try and bring in about equality to help the manager for next season.
SPEAKER_01I think that leads us on nicely. Actually, did a couple of questions that Hayden had for you, Roy. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Hi Roy. Hi, Hayden. Hi, so um, we're coming up to 140 years anniversary. Um, club formed in 1886. Uh, just doing a wee bit of research earlier on. Uh, my grandfather would have been seven years old in that time. Um, he was born five-mile time before he moved to Belfast when he was in his 20s and then got involved with supporting the Blues and uh Club and so on. Um just wondering what the club has organized, if anything, um, for the 140th anniversary.
SPEAKER_03I think I think we brought it a obviously uh a new top um during the season to sort of mark the 140 years and with various other uh business pieces of of Club Regalia to go along that. I think there's been a deliberate decision to keep it fairly low-key, Hayden, because I think we're looking towards sort of the 150 and 10 years' time, which will be a a marvelous occasion, hopefully with a lot of things organized. But there hasn't been a I think there's been a probably since COVID, um, the cost of organizing these sort of large-scale dinners and events um have proved difficult, have proved difficult for supporters, sort of in a cost of living crisis. So even this season, for example, our end of season awards dinner, we're planning that at in Lisburne at our Lynchman's Lisburn Supporters Club, just to try and make it a bit more affordable. So just to answer your question, that there are no big events, no large-scale events planned. Um, but certainly through our social media platforms and other places, we will certainly mark the occasion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, we we talked earlier on there about uh rebuilding. Uh the manager has said he he's going to be rebuilding the team. Now, uh anyone listening to previous podcasts will know I've been very critical of the style of the play, not just this year but last year. Um and speaking to I was speaking to somebody at the carriage game, and he agreed with me that um the style of play just wasn't entertaining. I think that was the word he used, not entertaining. And I've felt for some time, I just turn up at Windsor or wherever, as a spectator, it's hard really to get enthusiastic about the style of the play. And when I look at the players that we've actually lost recently, Jordan Stewart, the Glens, Callie Pompower to the Glens, Joel Cooper to Cole Rain. And I know there could be lots of excuses about why they've left and why we couldn't keep them and so on. But just thinking back to say the 100th anniversary of the club in 1986, uh, I can't imagine the Blues actually losing anyone for any reason if they thought they were the best player in that position. So I'm just wondering what the board um has you know talked about, about rebuilding, how that's gonna be done, um, you know, but what players, not necessarily what players, we know some players are leaving. Um, but what where are we gonna get the players from and and and what the players of of quality, that's really an important thing. Uh, where are we gonna get them from in the summertime?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's a very good question, and and one that we've spent a lot of time discussing with uh with the manager and the head of recruitment over recent months. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily agree about style of play, it's something I don't get really hung up about. For me, I want Linfeed to win. For me, it's all about results, and I think we have had some good performance this season, but not enough of them, of course, but um but I do think, I mean, I said earlier, but I do think we need a wee bit more creativity around the team, certainly in the forward areas on the and a bit of pace about the team. Um there are 12 players coming out of contract, so you know, clearly that that will necessitate some form of rebuild. Um, but I think the focus is going to be on quality rather than quantity. Um, I don't think we'll be bringing anywhere near that number of players in again. And I suppose we have to be uh realistic with supporters that you know the days of Linfield taking the best players from from other clubs is gone. Um we're probably sitting fourth in the league, which might reflect where we are at the minute in terms of budget. Um there's certainly two teams above us in the league who seem to have bottomless funds with external investment, uh, and that is just the harsh reality, is sometimes you can't compete with that, and you certainly can't put the club at risk in spending money, which would put us in a difficult position, particularly with the new financial compliance regulations that are now in force. So um I know at a recent NIFL meeting it it was said that if the regulations were applied to this current season, seven clubs out of twelve would face a point seduction. Now, Linfield will not be in that position and we don't want to put them in it. But so just with the funds that we have and and the club is in a fairly stable position thanks to winning the league last year, I think we can bring in some quality in the close season. We we will look outside of this league. We have one player already signed on a pre-contract who I think will be a be a quality addition to to the squad, and plans are in place to bring in a few others. And I think I think you're right, you need that sort of player that sort of gets you to set up like a Joel Cooper or a or a Jordan Stewart, you know, that type of player, and you probably just don't have that at the moment.
SPEAKER_04So it's Montroy, the the question I would ask is will we spend as much money in the transfer market this summer as we did as actually not last summer, it's actually this time last year, uh, or or last January, and Carla Morrison Kieran Offered?
SPEAKER_03I I think the answer is no, David. I think they were that was me that was mainly transfer fees. So I mean the plan would be not to pay any transfer fees this summer. I mean, we are looking at players out of contract and there are a lot of options there. Um I mean, I think there there are occasions where if you're sitting in a certain position in January that you want to take a gamble um and bring players in who are not out of contract, um, sometimes that pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Um, but I don't think certainly in in summer recruitment that that we normally try to pay transfer fees, but um and I think that's probably our position certainly for this summer.
SPEAKER_04And could you really talk us through? So let's hypothesate for a second that I'm I'm William McCone and I'm the or Andor the manager and we identify a player. So how does how do we get that player signed? Who has to approve that?
SPEAKER_03Well, the first stage of the process would be we sit down with William, the manager, and look at the squad. So who do we have signed for next season?
SPEAKER_04And who who's we uh that's we need to get down to who's essentially accountable here?
SPEAKER_03So that would be a team committee, and members of the club would would know who that is. Um so that that those those conversations would take place. We look at where the gaps are, and Willie would then have the the task of going out and looking at the number of options for to fill those positions. Um and he goes back with a long list. Um, but we as board members we don't have any role in in sort of determining do we sign that player or sign that player. That ultimately is a decision solely of the manager. Um David knows exactly what he wants, he knows the players mostly in this league and other leagues. Um so he will decide what he wants. Our role as a board and as a team committee is simply to back him financially to say, yes, that is affordable or it's not affordable. And once we give the green light, then Willie would would detail would work with the player and his agent to get the deal over the line.
SPEAKER_04So there's never been a situation where Willie or the manager both have brought a player, and then, for example, the team committee would provide their view on his professional record, his ability to come into the squad, his ability to add or take away from what we've already got.
SPEAKER_03I think in my time, David on the board, I think I've been on the team committee most of those um 10 years as chairman. Um I only recall one occasion where we said that we wouldn't sign a player, and that was simply because the player had a criminal record. Um I think it was absolutely the right decision. But in all my time there, um, I don't think we've ever um said no to request. We have backed the manager, we have found money from somewhere, um, and that's always been the position.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, it's interesting. I remember a sort of tongue in cheek now, actually, but a member of the team committee saying we shouldn't sign a centre half because he hadn't scored enough goals throughout his career. So it's just it's interesting. I don't think that player had a criminal record. So essentially, what we're what I'm trying to establish here is if recruitment or if we say lose a player, Roy, the the blame essentially sits then at the door of Willie McCone and the manager.
SPEAKER_03Ultimately it's their call, who who we sign. Yeah, I mean that's they're the professional people, David.
SPEAKER_04I don't think we is say Joe say Joe Cooper who left. Say Joe Cooper who left, and would we would would you in that case blame David Healy and Willie McCone?
SPEAKER_03No, I th I I think I think when you get certainly players who are currently at the club, if you're dealing with contract negotiations, then obviously Willie's role in it is to come and say to the theme committee, here's what actual player is looking to to stay at the club. Okay, and then and then you make a decision, is that affordable? Now, in that situation, you you you've mentioned that I'm in put out the club's um position on record many, many times about this, that simply wasn't affordable because of the the the length of the contract. So, as I said, if you don't want to make a decision that you're paying out a certain amount of money in three years' time, which could put the club in a very precarious financial position. So that was a decision on that one that we took.
SPEAKER_00Well, can I ask a question there? So, are you saying that um on in any situation that you wouldn't give a player a contract of say three years, irrespective of their year, of their age?
SPEAKER_03No, no, hey, I think it's dealt with on a sort of player-by-player basis. So, certainly, if if you're looking at a young player sort of uh um coming into the club or someone who might maybe be looking at a long-term contract, if that's affordable, then yes, you would take it on. But in the in the case that David mentioned there, this was a contract that's certainly the highest contract the club has ever discussed with a player or their agent. So in that case, and where we were at that time, it just was too big a risk in the board's view.
SPEAKER_01Right. Can I just come in? Because no Mo has a question or two there to ask Roy just on the idea of the rebuild, which is which has really intrigued me over the last few months. You you said this has been talked about by the board for a few months. Is there a moment is there a moment where it was decided that a rebuild was required? If that makes sense, because it strikes me at the beginning of the year, everybody was probably happy with the squad, but was there conversations always happening behind the scenes looking towards this summer with the amount of players out of contract? Um, we probably couldn't have foreseen how things have gone on the pitch. But the uh the question is, is there a moment where collectively, as the board, as the manager, the head of recruitment, decide that a rebuild is required, or does that only just happen when the team start playing poorly on the pitch?
SPEAKER_03It's certainly not a discussion that takes place at the full board. Um Jason certainly saw that as as David will know, dealing with 17 people around the table can be very difficult. So, no, these are the these are more sort of decisions that the the team committee had with the manager, and and there probably does come a point, but with so many coming out of contract at the end of this season, there was always going to be some kind of rebuild. But I think you take it as a season at some point during the season, and this season was probably just around Christmas time when we lost three games in a row, I think, with sort of um Glenn Avon, Glenn Torn and Cole Rain, where we sort of dropped out of contention probably then because if the team was in the same position as they were the previous season, with players coming out of contract, we'd probably try and resign most of them. You know, we we we we we we won the league by quite a margin the year before, but this year um with so many coming out of contract, I think probably out of those 12, I'm not sure very many, will be staying on for next season, and those final decisions haven't been taken yet. But at that stage, I think sort of around Christmas New Year, um, we we felt that it would be quite a significant rebuild, uh, and that's when the planning started.
SPEAKER_04Do you think, Roy, and I mean this is almost a quiz question for all of us. When was the last player? So let's say a player in a two-year deal, when was the last player we offered a fresh deal to prior to essentially them you know either coming out of contract or being in the cusp of being able to speak to other clubs? I'm not saying up here, by the way, Roy.
SPEAKER_03I'm actually interested uh asking, you know. Yeah, no, it's a fair question. So this season, probably around around September time, um, but which is obviously well before they can talk to other clubs, uh, the manager was asked to prioritize a list of about six players who he he felt um he really needed going forward. Um so that that was quite a short list of five or six players. So he came back with that list, and immediately then sort of around September, October time, those players were all spoken to about extending their contract. Some of them did. Um, and I think probably out of all those six, we have now re-signed them. Um so that that discussion has to take place well before sort of December, January time when other clubs in could put letters in and talk to the players. So you try and identify who your priorities are for keeping on. Others, and I think I think sort of times have changed a bit, but for me, it's still acceptable for some players to see out their contract and then decide do they want to stay or do they want to go. Um, and that maybe doesn't happen as much now, but but there are a number of of those failed players. Some some of those could could stay with the club. I mean, it looked like somebody, even um Sam Taylor, who's who's here on loan, but I mean Sam could decide he's he's potentially come out of contract with with Tran Mayer to be sign him for next season, and one or two others, I mean Jimmy Mulgrew, we we don't know, but will Jimmy retire the end of this season? But in in recent years, Jimmy hasn't decided until the end of the season what his plans are. So for some players, it suits to wait until the end of the season. Although you have to speak too early.
SPEAKER_02Mr.
SPEAKER_03Chairman, good evening. Good evening, Mo.
SPEAKER_02Uh Roy, I have been through uh your five-year plan that you signed off six years ago now, um, at length, since we started the pod, um round about that blip you mentioned there around about Christmas. I don't know whether we we were the Scott or not. So I would just like to remind all the listeners around the strategic objectives and then go through the KPIs for each one very quickly, and then just ask you a quick question on one on each of the objectives. So, strategic objective one, it was to maintain domestic supremacy, improving the European stage, and become the world's leading club by league title wins, and then obviously it it listed um the KPIs on through them. So, first KPI was win the premiership of the Irish Cup every season. That comes back as partially met. Now, had we have actually said one of the top three trophies, or maybe a major trophy, that would have been fully met. You know, we've won either a Legal League Cup or an Irish Cup every every year since. So that's you know you know, that that seems to be a good start. Uh, qualify for Europe every season um during the five-year plan. That's gone well, fantastic. Uh, maybe just come out of the five-year plan. Uh there's still a wee bit of work to do for the team now. Um, and then we start to hit the partially met or not met at all, progress beyond entry round every other season. And you know, we we had the famous Cammy Palmer incident and the Jimmy Gallagher own goal. Um, so that is partially met. Next one is three Academy graduates in the first team squad or three plus. Now, if you look through the squads this year, the three graduates that would have constantly came to the fore would have been Chris McKee, Charlie Allen, and David Walsh. Two of those guys, certainly in my mind, and obviously I'll I'll ask you about that in a bit. Two of those guys went away and came back. You know, they haven't actually came through the academy through Galtie Swifts and then into the first team. That would be what I would be focusing on, is you know, so do we send these boys away and hope to come back, or are they class as academy graduates? But that's still partially met. Um, academy players in the Age Group Internationals, well and truly met. Um, you know, it's it's really great to see Northern Ireland senior squads with Linfield-related players, and also again, that's been well met. And then the first real major negative point is the Linfield ladies. Um, there was an expectation that a major trophy would be won every season, and quite frankly, they've been disappointing. And obviously, the financial aspect of the ladies' team as well. Uh, world record for national title wins, again, met. Uh, there's other clubs in the world that say they're more successful in Linfield, they're clearly not. And then the last one that has been met to a certain uh extent is the development fee framework for the graduates going across. So, out of all that, I'd just like to ask you one question, and it is on the women's team. Um, are they value for money? Bearing in mind they aren't achieving on the pitch, certainly nowhere near to the men's team. And also, what is the minimum requirement by UEFA and is there a way of scaling that back ladies-wise, to then reinvest and maybe bring one or two other players into the men's first team?
SPEAKER_03So the ladies' team are on there just about to start year three of a three-year plan for them. Um and during that three year, then the majority of players in that squad have have become professional players, um, in line with other clubs in the league. Um, this year is is really important for the ladies, so I think we need to see clear progression, we need to see a major trophy and hopefully get back into Europe. I know there are plans for a second European competition for ladies, which would be a help. Um I think if this year is not successful, then I think the board has a big decision to make. Um, because I think at the moment we're probably putting in somewhere around 90 or 100,000 per year to fund the ladies' team, obviously, with very little income coming in. There was an expectation some years ago that more money might come in from UEFA for for ladies' football or from the IFA, but at this point that hasn't materialized. So and I think this question was raised certainly at last year's ATM by at least one member. Um, so I think we're in a critical period now for ladies' football. We have to see delivery, we have to see money coming in, we have to see it become sustainable. As that doesn't happen, then I think there is a clear issue then for the board to decide at the end of this current season.
SPEAKER_02Well, just to follow up on that first question, Roy, um looking through, and again, I I've been at this for weeks. Um, the last lot of accounts suggest that the ladies' team lost upwards of £90,000. Um that to me, whenever it's all about the men's team, if the men's team aren't successful, the club goes downwards very, very quickly. I mean, that is a hell of a lot of money for underachement. Is that figure of 90 grand fairly accurate?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I said that and my answer was between 90 and 100,000, I think, for this year. Um, so yeah, I mean it is a it is a significant amount of money, um, but I think you're investing that money with the expectation that if you win the league and certainly going back to it the last time our ladies' team was successful, we did bring in significant amounts of money from them competing in Europe. So we hosted what was the NMI tournament for like three other clubs, and the club made certainly more than that figure that you've mentioned from that tournament. So, but if we're not getting that return, at some stage you have to make a decision. And the answer to your earlier question, the minimum requirement is you have to be associated with a ladies' team, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a professional team. They could they could be an amateur team. Um and other clubs have gone down that route. So as I say, we will have to reflect on the season ahead and see how successful they are or aren't, and then make a decision in terms of the way forward for the ladies' section of the club.
SPEAKER_04I I think going away, Roy, and I I'm not sorry to interrupt. Mo I I'm this is not me necessarily being strong or anti on this position, but you know, if you actually look proportionally, Roy, and you'll know from being at ECA meetings, the the money available for women's football now proportionally, because obviously there's been a push from UEFA and FIFA is actually very high. And I suppose, in a way, I mean, if the women's teams lost an eye on a hundred grand, I mean, what would the position be if we weren't to qualify for Europe, Roy, for the for the men's first team? So if we went like for like and both men and women's first teams performed essentially at the same level and ended up fifth or sixth, how much would we lose for the men's team?
SPEAKER_03Well, if you're the year where you weren't qualifying for Europe, um and you're probably talking about losses and probably an access of a million pounds for the men's team. Yeah, so last year was good for us in terms of competing in the Champions League. We brought in about 1.5 million from Europe gross. Um, so that's fine if you're winning the league or you're qualifying for Europe, but if you're not, then the losses would be quite significant.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I suppose that the this is the PR challenge here, isn't it, really? Where actually when you look at the numbers, you turn around and say, Well, look, you know, bluntly, you know, 17 white males are prepared to ply in over a million quid because the men might get to the Champions League, but we can't swallow losing a tenth of that for the women because they haven't got to the Champions League. So I think this this is a difficult one because I know there's been without naming names, clearly some board members have been strong or stronger in pushing this. So we've now almost backed ourselves into a corner where bluntly in financial terms we're burning through money. But I think actually from the PR point of view, we could damage ourselves greatly if we end up saying, I actually, you know, we can't afford this because we want to sign two more blokes for the men's team, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I think it's I mean it's not about sort of pitting the men's team against the women's team in terms of performance, but I do think we have to try and find a way that that that our women's section of the club is sustainable. And I'd say the only way of doing that is for them to be successful and bring money in from Europe the same way as the men's team does. So that's the plan, that's the target. From I mean, we had a report on this last night at the board meeting. Um, they have significantly strengthened the women's team for the season ahead. Um, so I think they're very optimistic. Um, but that has to be delivered upon. Um, and if it's not, then you know, I say we'll look at it at the end of the season.
SPEAKER_02Moving on then to objective two in the five-year plan, it was grow the fan base, reactivate absent supporters, and encourage younger supporters to develop a lifetime passion for Lymphila FC, like everybody on the call here. Um, the KPIs were between five and ten percent annual growth in season tickets, home attendances, junior blues membership, and online merchandise sales. They're all coming back as partially met, Roy, because an awful lot of them are publicly reported. Um, the next one that is met, and certainly many of us on the call knows it was a social media marketing campaign development. Um, I think if you look at any of the sign-ins or any of the full-time employees in the club, Matt Wright's probably the standout in the last five, six years. Um he wears many hats, he'd done a tremendous job building that up. So that's one that very much is met and fair play to Matt for doing so. Um, the online ticketing approved eventually, you know. We I remember rightly there were issues initially with that. Is that all came came online? And then the one certainly in my view that hasn't been met is the match day experience improvements. Um, turning up at Windsor Park. We've said it on this pod many, many a times. It's a chore and not a joy. Um, so the question I've got for you for this is um around attendances. Whenever you look at the overall plan, um, there has been a wee bit of growth, but what we're being served up at the minute isn't great. We can't see you know what is the forecast for season tickets and attendances moving forward.
SPEAKER_03I think we can all see more that certainly this season particularly there there has been a sort of um downsiding in our support, certainly at home games, and there's no easy answer to this question. I mean, we've discussed this many, many times at board level, at AGMs, me out out and about with supporters. Um, going to Windsor Park for a home match, it is really difficult in terms of generating an atmosphere. I mean, I have friends who who go every week to the nobility lounge who absolutely love it, um, but obviously every fan isn't in a position to buy a premier seat and and to sit and sit in that area. Um so it is a challenge. There's been a tremendous amount of outreach done in the local community with local schools, with youth groups, with some of the groups around the village and Donegal Pass, Sandy Road, the trend sort of encourage more local people. Um, but it is it is a challenge, and it's something that we need to put more resource into. Um, David certainly when he was at the club, I know it's something that he was very passionate about. Um, but it is a challenge, and I think we are also looking to hear ideas as well from supporters about how they can help us do that. I know the the new amalgamation of Olympic supporters clubs can certainly play a part in that, but there are no there are no easy answers to it. I know people have asked me, should we be trying to move to another stadium to try and downsize to maybe a six, seven, eight thousand all seater stadium somewhere else? But is that realistic? You know, who would fund that in the current funding climate? That'd be very, very difficult.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Um, moving on then to my my last contribution, strategic objective three, um, improve the financial sustainability moving forward. The KPIs there, again, very, very hard to actually judge those and report on those from my level, not obviously having an inside of the club. Um, 5% annual increase in commercial revenues, increase the home attendances. We've covered that. All home games with uh match match ball sponsors, uh, pitch edge sponsorships, two home the club, include increasing that 50-50 scheme. Certainly from my own point of view. Um, whenever we go away to other grounds and we'll go away from home, it seems to be that a smaller crowd seems to generate more from a 50-50 draw than what Linfe does. That's just my my own opinion from what I see. Um, shop profitability goes up 5% a year, and then it then comes down to the one real thing that seemed to be a flagship of the five-year programme, and that is that uh beaver phase one to be completed. And the question out of that is where do we stand on beaver? You know, we're now six years down the line, and certainly we haven't seen anything in the social channels or anything come forward about where we actually stand with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, most something that's caused me huge frustration. Um we we have invested some money, uh beaver like 50,000 the club spent a few months back just to start the sort of preparatory work around putting up some fencing around a new pitch. That was to keep the planning alive, so we still have a a sort of live live planning and and that will carry on. But hugely frustrating, we haven't been able to secure external funding. We we did apply to the non-iron football fund for a new pitch there for Linfield Ladies, which we could also use for training purposes. So we we weren't successful in the first tranche of funding, but it remains an active project. We we have also looked at applications to other funds, um, but it's very difficult at the moment. You know, funding is very, very competitive. Um and but it's something that we won't give up on. I mean, we're still working in partnership with the Boys Paid, um, and hopefully that that can attract some funding at some stage in the future.
SPEAKER_02Um thanks, Roy. The the only other question I've got is um I work for a scale up tech company. Our board um has nine people on it. Uh, we have received a Series A funding of multiple millions of pounds. I'm very fortunate to work for the company. So the question, and it's a very direct one, is why do Linfield Football Club needs such a large leadership group, board of directors, committee, trustees, whatever way it's named and framed, why do we need 17 whenever schools can run off now? Uh tech startups with millions of pounds invested in them run off now, but Linfield are closer to 20 than 10.
SPEAKER_03It's something more that I can give you my personal opinion on, because I'd say that the board doesn't have a collective view on this, but I'm on record as saying that our board is too big, it's not diverse enough. I mean, I've sat on numerous other boards, I've been a chair of a school board of governors for for many, many years, but with much smaller numbers. Um, so I think we need to get in place. My view is we need an executive board of somewhere between seven and ten people, with each director having very specific roles and responsibilities. I think how to make that change happen, it could probably be driven through if we get external investment, and we may come on to talk about that. I think that would dictate it because I think no one's going to come into a club and work with such a large number of people. Um, but I think I think we do need to modernize the club. Um, I think certainly 16 is the minute because we've with one trustee has stood down, is too many. But I don't really get to get the whole thing about sort of elected members against trustees because I think some of the trustees bring a great skill set to the club. Um, and that structure has been in place long before I came to the club in terms of of nine elected members and and eight trustees. So I think I think it's just the numbers of those people which need to be looked at. I think there still is a case for a balance between some elected and some not elected.
SPEAKER_04So could you really talk us through funny? We were talking about this several weeks ago on the pod. So what's the difference between uh a trustee and a director?
SPEAKER_03There's effectively no difference, David. I mean, they they all have have the same voting powers. Um, and I mean any of them can stand for any position within the club. So once we have our ATM in the first Friday in May, the board will then meet after that ATM. And every one of those 17 or 16 people can stand for election in any position, chairman, vice chairman, or or whatever, head of committee. So there's there's actually no difference at all.
SPEAKER_04So so why then do trustees not go up in front of the membership to be elected?
SPEAKER_03You'd have to probably have to ask them, David. I mean, I don't know. Um I know this did come to a number of EGMs, certainly before long before I was chairman, but but I was a member and and went to those meetings and the club debated that issue. Um, and there was some support for maybe um bringing everyone to a position where they had to stand for election. But that was that was defeated ultimately. We with the there wasn't a 75% majority to change that position. So I don't see that changing in the future. But as I said, there are trustees there who who are very long established business people. There's some bring they bring business skills or bring legal skills, so I think they bring added value to to to the club, but I just think we need to have less people sitting around the table. For me, ideally, I'd want five elected members and potentially four trustees.
SPEAKER_04Um, are the trustees so let's say we go into the red and with no money left. Are the trustees not financially liable for the club?
SPEAKER_03I think that was a position in the past, David. I don't think it is at the moment because we're we're we're we're now a limited company. I don't think they have that that same liability, but certainly going back to maybe in the 80s um when we were in a quite a difficult financial position, some trustees did have to put their hands in their pocket and build the club out. Um but I don't think that would happen under the current circumstance.
SPEAKER_04So how do you become a trustee then? What's the process?
SPEAKER_03The only um requirement is you have to be a club member. Um and so the existing trustees, then if if there's need for a new one to come on board, they would select from club members, uh, and the other board members have no role in that at all.
SPEAKER_04Right. So what what we've got then, if I if I'm right in saying this, we've essentially got a House of Lords who elect within their small group someone else. So we've no power as a membership or a support to to get them out. But if for example we say Roy McGivern, no good as chairman anymore, let's not vote him out, democracy rules and you you're no longer uh a director. So what we've got is people who the only way of, as far as I can see, losing your trusteeship in the club is essentially by the natural passing of time and passing away or retiring.
SPEAKER_03I think I think that's factually that that's the position. Or if you become bankrupt, I think I think you automatically lose your lose your your trustee role. But yeah, I mean that's that's the way it has been, David, long before you and I were involved in the club. Um and people could argue that it that that has worked very well um over a long period of time, but ultimately it's a decision for the members of the club. Do they want to change that? And if they do, and if 75% want to change it, then there is a mechanism for doing that. Um for me, I think my focus at the minute is in terms of our revolving as a club, where we are, what investment that we can bring into the club, and if that investment comes in, I think ultimately that will drive the change that we need. Yes, go ahead, Mo.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, David. Roy, just well, just one last point and I'll switch my microphone off afterward. Um the way I would explain it is the the players are responsible for the performances. Um, the management and coaching staff are responsible for the results, the league position, and everything else that goes around the team. Now, you hit the nail on the head earlier on with rules and responsibilities, and how would you like to see it? You've also mentioned uh you know these people with business acumen and everything else that goes along with it, the skill set they bring to the club. Now, if we've got a strong committee to bring money into the club, but yet we are saying we've got no money, does that not mean they're underperforming?
SPEAKER_03I don't I don't know who said we have no money. So, as I said, the ATN this year will see a very positive and very healthy set of accounts. Um, so the club certainly has significant reserves in place. What I did, what I have said is we don't have the money that certainly other clubs have because they seem to have a bottomless pit prevented by an external investor. So that's what that's what we don't have. But Linfeed have have always been a club that have been sort of run well in financial terms, they haven't taken um undue risks. Um so I think that going forward, I mean, I think to meet the challenge of these other clubs, I think we need to bring in more investment. I mean, some of the counteractors have have brought in great amounts of money in terms of sponsorship, um, but that just isn't isn't enough anymore. You know, selling 50-50s or 200 clubs or a track side, those things are important, or bringing in new sponsors, they're all important, but it won't mean I mean some of the clubs now are probably spending twice amount twice the amount on players in terms of the annual wage bill than Infield are. And I mean, that you couldn't have seen that position a number of years ago. So that's a challenge for us going forward. The amounts we need to bring in now are much, much more than we've had to in the past.
SPEAKER_02And one last point. Sorry. Um, obviously, I've been through the five-year review. Has the board met and will we see an official review of the five-year strategic plan ever released?
SPEAKER_03Yes, there will be a there there will be an evaluation completed. I mean, there's a small group now who are looking at both the evaluation of the previous plan and the new five-year plan. I suppose the issue at the moment is we need to decide the future direction of the club. Um, do we bring in external investment? Can we can we get that over the line? And if we do, then that will obviously dictate what's going to be in a five-year plan going forward. So, yes, the answer to your question, there there will be an evaluation published.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
SPEAKER_03Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Roy. I I think just on the back of what Mo said there, and I'm I'm pleased, and certainly we're we're not going to ask you for numbers, etc., on the figures, that's for the AGM, and and rightly so. But you know, if we'll we'll ballpark it, um, and again, I'm not gonna ask you how much we lost on on Callum Morrison either, but if if we go on the basis that the player trading model, and I've tried to do a bit of numbers myself here based on a bit of guesswork, I'm gonna guess we brought in half a million quid in the last year or two on Academy players and sell on. I'm I'm if we can play hot and cold, Roy, I'm a far away from that figure. I'm saying that wouldn't be too far away.
SPEAKER_03I mean how many figures maybe, but it's not only not far away, David.
SPEAKER_04Aye, so if we're in and around that, we then look at obviously getting the Champions League was important and getting a few of those rounds, obviously missing out in the playoffs, but it's fair to say we should be in a healthier position than last year. That's a fair assumption. I suppose then that the challenges, and we know it's a redic. You you've already suggested there, if I picked you up right, that certainly will not be entering the transfer market spending money. And and I have to say, I probably in many ways don't disagree with that point. Would you say our wage bill will be up or down for next year? I think it'll probably be at the same level um as it was last season. So I suppose then, and the the point that I suppose we're reaching, and I'm going to reach two points, is number one, the and we'll ask you about the full-time model and the successes and failures of it in a second. But I suppose at what point does all this become unsustainable financially, Roy, and you've already alluded to it. You didn't see Lauren coming, none of us did, didn't see Korean, none of us did, Ali pour etc. So at what point do we take a step back and say we're going to be sustainable even if it sacrifices success?
SPEAKER_03I think that's a very valid question, David. And I think some of us are right talking about that. I mean, looking at it, um when we started the full-time model um to where we are now, things have have radically changed. The whole landscape of the league has changed. So really now it's only sustainable either by winning the league every year, which which is probably impossible, but progress to the group stages, as Lauren have done once, external investment or getting a really significant sale-on clause from from one of our former players, like a like a Trey Hume. Without any of those four things, it's not sustainable. Um, so do I mean some some board members have asked the question do you sit back and wait until some of these clubs are spending huge amounts of money go out of business? I mean, if any of these investors walk away, um they're they're going to be in tremendous trouble. Um but for me, I I just think Linfee Larry Club, as I said, it's built on success. We try not to ever stand still. So I just think we have to look at a model where we can bring in some form of external investment. And and that can be one single investment. Or look at even what Carrie could have achieved. I mean, it was very impressive down there last Friday night by the huge number of Americans there. Now, whether you like them or not, and I know some people may not, um, they're all small investors, but the sort of cumulative effect of that has been very good for them. So there are various models out there, but I think to me, Lindfeed have to be competing. We can't just sit back and satisfy ourselves by being being the top six. We we have to be competing for league titles to get into Europe. And the only way I think we do that at the moment is to try and bring someone into the club because we can't rely on a trade human being sold or a Callum Marshall or someone else.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think though, if we stick to that figure of half a million, how much of that money, or is there a figure, is there an agreed percentage of board level to say we bring in X, you know, 50%, 25% goes directly back into the academy to basically find the next trade Hume? I mean, is there a set figure on that?
SPEAKER_03No, there's none of that money as ever ring fence. I mean, the money goes into one pot at Linfield, and then the board takes strategic decisions about where's the best place in investing that money. So the academy comes to us and say they need the money, then the decision is made on that. So it's it's it's it's not ring fence, and but some people have been arguing for maybe specific budgets for each element of the club, but we're not at that stage yet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, that I think part of the challenge, and I think we have discussed this either privately as as podcasters or potentially even on. I suppose the big the big challenge is, Roy, the the amount of money the Academy produces for us in terms of you know, even you look at Northern Iron Thursday night, someone like Rory McConville, you know, I I don't know this for a fact, but I'm going to assume there was a sell-on when he left Brighton to Norwich, which which helped us buy Morrison and Offer. You don't think it'd be a genius to probably put two or two together? So I suppose that the the the challenge is whenever you hear some of the stories coming out of you know our economy in terms of like we we have what one full-paid member of staff, which is Glenn Ferguson, compared to other clubs. Like, at what point do we think we're very top-heavy at the minute? We put all our money into the first team, like pretty much every other club in world football. But is is there a model as part of that investment to actually say, well, let's grow from the bottom up and let's actually try to find yes the next Trey Hume, yes, the next Calin Marshall, but also you know, the next Jamie Mulgrew, the next Michael Gold?
SPEAKER_03I think David, if the club was to bring in an external investment, I think, yeah, I think the priority would not be just just the first team. We'd we'd looking to invest some of the money in the beaver to to to get it going in terms of training for for for the Academy and for the first team, but also looking to to invest into the Academy. And I suppose you'll be aware that you know that that scholarship theme that we put in place a number of years ago, a number of of Of excellent players have have them through that. There's some very good prospects. Some of them have moved to England, as you say. And there are good years and bad years in terms of the academy. I know the looking forward to this summer, I think we're probably looking at maybe only one player going across the water. Um, but the other side of that is hopefully there are others who can come through to then go through the shot the scholarship scheme and then hopefully compete for a for a place in the first team squad. So um so you have to weigh up but weigh that up. But mostly in the last number of years, then there have been sort of certainly three, four, five players uh going across the water. So they have produced, there's no doubt that great talent has come out of our academy.
SPEAKER_04I think that wrote that now rises a challenge where when you mention the likes of a Lorne and others, you know, the fact they're paying their coaches, the fact that there are players, you know, when you hear stories about boys from like the Shankar Road, which is like you know, Linfield Heartland going to Lorne and various things, that that's a dangerous sign of things to come because I I accept, we all accept, if there's money being thrown at Joel Cooper and five-year deals, etc. etc. etc. But I think you know, if you're losing pre-teens and teenagers to the likes of Lorne and other clubs, that's that's when you know we are starting to all worry.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think that model at Larne and Fair Play to them was probably put in place by by Kenny Bruce before before he moved on. And and um I think he recognised that in order for Larne to be sustainable, they had to be developing their own players and bringing them through and either selling them on or bringing them into the first team. Um so I think he invested really in the right way, and and I say all credit to him. Um how sustainable is that? I mean, they've had their journey into the group phase in Europe, which obviously brought in a lot of money to Larn. Um, but he's gone now, and they have new investors in. So I just think in our in our current circumstances, you know, it's just not possible to be funding a large number of coaches outside the first team setup. But if you brought investment in, and it's something you definitely have to look at.
SPEAKER_04But I I think though the issue is so again, and I and and I don't want to have to read through the whole five-year plan, but it's interesting where when you pick out develop all levels of coaching to be the best possible levels, thus ensuring that the best talent is nurtured in the best possible way. So, for example, I assume then we're paying our academy coaches coaching certificates, for example.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we do contribute towards those, and it's all done on a sort of case-by-case basis, but we have funded a number of coaching certificates for staff right throughout the club. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, I suppose look, uh to go back to the questions, the blunt, the blunt question I have to finish off is, and I think we've all got a view on this, like, you know, we can do do you feel we have successfully transitioned to full-time football?
SPEAKER_03I think we have, David, sort of within the means that are available to us. Um I mean, I I talk regularly to some of our staff, um, just just talking to Terry Hayes last week. And you know, he tells me that that our players get all the help and assistance that they need, and certainly in terms of recovering from injuries and things, but there's always more you could do, I think, in any club. And if we had finance available, then we would do more. But I think within our current means, um then I think we certainly have made the transition. We've brought success to the club in many ways, but if there's more to do, then I think we need money to do that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because I think really obviously, and I have you know said this both public and privately to you, Roy, you know, I mean, I would debate that players are given every you know uh opportunity to recover when you hear stories of you know players paying for their own medical care and various things. I suppose the big question is if we are going to try to compete, we've established that we can't get the best players in the league. You know, you've admitted that earlier, and that's we appreciate your frankness there. However, is there not more we can do around so again, going back to the five-year plan, optimise player preparation, professionalizing pre-season approach? Uh, you know, are these things being properly looked at and essentially who's in charge? So increase the focus on the whole player concept, whereby all first team players are supported in areas such as strength conditioning, diet nutrition, sports psychology. I mean, I mean, I don't want to embarrass you, but I'm gonna take a guess that we've spent very little money in sports psychology in the last five or six years.
SPEAKER_03Uh David, I think those are matters which which I rely on the professionals at the club, you know, who have a lot more experience with football than I have, to come to us as a board and say this is what we need. And if they think there are areas where we where we aren't doing enough, then I'm sure they will be slow on asking for it.
SPEAKER_04So um But Roy, I would I would dispute that because here so herein lies the fundamental issue that I think you probably felt with my questioning throughout this pod. There is an issue where the stock line is we rely on the professionals, the professionals come and ask us for things, but then the essentially decisions are made based on finances, but the difficulty is when we're looking at whether it be pre-season, whether it be the accommodation that we're staying in, we're away in Europe, etc. etc. If every decision we're making is based simply on you know pounds and pence, then actually the professionals are simply asking for how we can improve things, but they're not necessarily getting them, which which in a way is creating a situation where we're not part-time anymore, but we're not necessarily full-time either. We're almost we're in purgatory, really.
SPEAKER_03I think these things are all discussed, David, and there's always a balance to be struck. I mean, we we have funded two preseason training camps in Spain, you know, which were very expensive, but I think extremely worthwhile in terms of your European preparation. The most recent training camp, I mean, that was becoming too expensive. So we agreed to to fund a training camp in in Poland. Um, that's the most recent one I think we've had. But now we're looking at can we can we do similar things in the UK or or or down south? So I think we'll always seek to invest where requests are made to us or where we think there's a need for investment. Sometimes maybe it doesn't need huge investment. But as long as you're you're you're seeming to be reacting and trying to give the playing staff the best possible preparation for a season ahead. Um but the club, we will never put the club at risk, and I think that's important. Um particularly around financial compliance, you cannot take the season, and some clubs have taken huge risks, but when points reductions are starting to be handing out, handed out in the next season or two, then I think you will see a massive fallout from that.
SPEAKER_04Look, I think the final question for me is you know, do you accept the narrative that they're you know, and I think you've alluded to it that there are some board members who are quite content to go back to part-time because quite frankly, there is a part of me that begrudgingly agrees with him because I I simply don't see how we can, you know, as you as you sort of admitted in a maybe Freudian way, Roy, we're fourth in the league at the minute because we've probably got the fourth biggest budget, I assume. In fact, I'll almost hazard a guess there we we may actually even have the fifth or sixth, and there are a few teams who have clearly spent a lot of money even with next season in mind, but let's go on the basis that we're in fourth. Really, scientifically, the only way to get there is, you know, or the best way to get there is to outspend. We've we've said we're not going to do that. So I almost think at some point, you know, do we accept where we now are? And we simply say, look, as Mo said, let's rewrite the next five-year plan to say let's win a major trophy every year, and you know, count it as one of the main three and not the county anthem Shield, really.
SPEAKER_03I mean, my view now, David, is I certainly don't accept where we are. Um, I think being 11 points clear is not acceptable to me. Um, sorry, 11 points behind at the stage of the season. So I think we have to do what we can to try and change that situation. Um, there's been no discussion at board level about going back to part-time. Um say we have finances in place for the food and time model to carry on. But if there came a time where we weren't qualifying for Europe and we weren't bringing in sufficient income, that may be the decision that is forced upon the club. Personally, for me, at that stage I'd probably walk away and go back to supporting the club from the terrorists because I would see that as failure on our part. So I hope that hope that doesn't come about. But I think we need we at this stage of where we are, we have to make every effort to try and bring in the investment that we need to put us back on par. And I don't think there's anyone outside the three teams above us, David, who are paying more than we are at the moment. Um I just don't see it. But I think we we don't need to be spending what co-raner spending, but I think there's somewhere in between that we can we can bring in a better quality of player and have more depth to our squad that than we currently have.
SPEAKER_04Well, look, final point for me, I suppose again without asking the numbers right. How many seasons so look we're we're in a very difficult position to win the league this season, and it's certainly not impossible, but it's mathematically challenging. So the best we can probably hope for is you know, first round non-champions path conference league, I think that's correct, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04So based on that being next season's European expectation, and look, we all know how very, very challenging that route is to try to make the group stages. So how many years of that? So not even not qualifying for Europe, with the money we've got in in the bank at the moment, how many years can we get away with doing that? Essentially getting in via the the playoff route?
SPEAKER_03I would say without winning the league, you're probably having it two more years.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so so so essentially, if so, really, in a way, the the crux of the TARFAT is will the board be bringing uh you know a proposal? Because you said in 2024 that the board was seeking investment, there would be a proposal brought in with an EGM. Will you be in a position at the AGM to say here is a legitimate agreed position by the board? Here is an investor, investors, and we are going to now bring this to you this evening or before the new season starts.
SPEAKER_03I would say that's most unlikely, David. I think what we'll get at the AGM is a full and detailed briefing to our members about the discussions that have taken place, and there have been numerous discussions with potential investors uh facilitated through our UK legal partners. So we'll have a full update on that. Um members who can ask questions on that. Um, but we're not at the stage where we we have something which for me can be put forward as a as a proposal. Um and I think probably looking at what's happened at Cliffinville over the last year, I think that's probably made us even more cautious because we certainly don't want to go down a road where this could potentially split the club and where where people walk away simply because it becomes too damaging internally. So um I think we can find finding fine investment and we're looking at various models and various proposals, but I think just an AGM coming in what four or five weeks' time is probably just too soon. Um but I think I think things are are coming to a level of detail where we will need to certainly see the colours of the money quite soon and have a proposal so we're able to call an ATM potentially early next season.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well I look, I think it's only my view, and I've said this to you privately, Roy. You know, I mean, even knowing how slowly these things move, you know, how much you know background due diligence, and I think with respect, look, we all know how small our turnover is, so it's not even as if it's you know uh a League One team, a championship team or whatever, let alone uh you know an old firm or whatever. You know, this isn't going to move quickly. And I suppose that the real fear that we've all got as fans is that, you know, what if we're sitting, you know, it's just past St. Patrick's Day, what if we're sitting the end of March next year in exactly the same league position and being a little bit further on with investment and hoping to be getting it in soon? You know, we're getting very, very close to the cliff edge there. That's that's the wider concern for supporters. Add in too if you know the performance of the team doesn't improve next season and attendances go down, you know, Boxing Day, um being away from home next year, etc. etc. You know, before you know it, we could be in a very, very precarious financial position.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I mean I I think that's a very good update, David, of where we of where we currently are, and I certainly feel that and feel that pressure as as chairman of this club. Um, but we will make the right decisions at the right time. Uh and I I say we we will get a detailed update at the AGM, and I'm fairly positive about that that can bring bring forward investment to the club. But you're right, the timing of this is critical. We can't get to a stage where we're at a cliff edge. So um I certainly think we we can't be in the same position next day this stage next year, um, and certainly early in the season ahead, we we have to see some progress on this.
SPEAKER_04No, look, thank you, Ron. Look, I think we all certainly, but the last thing I have to say is I think we all greatly appreciate. I mean, I'm led to believe supporters clubs have asked to meet with other uh chairs of committees, and and certainly unless you have an update to the country, they're they're um refusing, as far as I'm led to believe, to meet and engage, which is disappointing. But you know, you've been here and you've held yourself to account. And I think at times, Roy, and I mean this is a veiled combo, but you're very quick to take responsibility at times for things that uh quite frankly, uh you know, you've a limited power and influence over. So look, we're very grateful for it, and we're very grateful for what you did as our chairman.
SPEAKER_03Thanks, David. I I think that our plan certainly, I mean, we discussed this last night again, that there will be a meeting with the amalgamation of Olympic Supporters Clubs after at some stage early after the ATM, at which a number of board members, including trustees, will be in attendance. So people will have that opportunity to ask questions. But I mean, I I do want to thank our supporters for you know the the support I've had this season and the support the club we've had this season, I think it's been exceptional. Um I've been out and about, I think the engagement we've had has been much improved this season, out and about with various supporters clubs. Um I mean, I was at Cave Hill anniversary dinner there on Saturday evening, you know, a great club, great family club, fantastic people. Um so we I think we have the greatest supporters on this island. Um we just need everyone to be working together in the same direction, pulling together, and think we can achieve more as a club.
SPEAKER_01I think Mo, you had one last point there, did you before I wrap up? No, that was just an emoji. Um clapping some hands, um, thanking Roy. Yeah, he's just showing you showing his appreciation to you, Roy. Look, I I just want to echo that. We really do appreciate you coming on, appreciate the thorough and honest answers. Um, and the podcast will go down in history for the first time that Mo has been forced to turn his microphone off, so supporters may be pleased to hear that. But uh thanks from me, uh Roy. Uh thanks to Mo, thanks to Hayden, and thanks to David Graham. Uh, we'll be back next week uh for another weekly review show where we will be talking about uh our way trip to the Oval on Saturday.