Alex Emery | The Man Behind John Nellis' YouTube Channel

In this episode we dive deep into the mind behind John Nellis' YouTube channel. A YouTuber that has gone from zero to 13 million subscribers in just 3 years.. this episode is full of gold... YouTube advice, tips and tricks from the very best in the game. Do not miss this episode! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I used to think I'm too late to this because YouTube used to work in a different way, right? So back in the day, content was very, very different. You'd find crossbar challenge videos with one camera on a tripod with no microphone, just a top mic, would be on eight million views. It's all you need is a phone. The idea sets the framework. So I always say that, like, okay, imagine you have a big circle. That circle is as big as the idea is. And then everything you do from the idea stage, filming it, scripting it, editing it, packaging it, sets the size of the eventual circle, which is how well the video performs. But that circle can't be bigger than the idea that we absolutely want to be the best. If there's anything that we can do to make our content better, we will do it. It doesn't want anything. It's like about never taking draw cuts.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

How difficult has it been to get it to where it is now?

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Incredibly difficult, to be honest. And it ultimately needs to be an obsession. Ultimately it is the only way that something like this can succeed. I would in my dream job, and John was an air traffic controller. We decided, fuck it, we're just gonna go and quit our jobs. Really? On a channel which had, I think, like 7,000 subscribers. This morning it was at 13 million subscribers. I just like the idea of always like raising the bar, raising the bar, seeing where you can take it. That was the most viewed video in the world that week. Really? On YouTube. On YouTube. 20 million videos uploaded every single day.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

How are you, mate?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Good. How's life? Yeah, good, busy.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

You look a bit jet lagged, a bit tired.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, I'm always, always jet lagged. I'm always tired. My body clock is just in different continents at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Honestly, like if anyone just like scrolls through your YouTube channel just for like 10 seconds, you pretty much just like fly around the world all the time. Yeah. All of your content is just like in France, in LA, and you in Dubai, and like it's nuts.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

It's it's crazy. And because we kind of edit them in a random order sometimes, maybe we're kind of like waiting to finish video. We could be in the US and then two days later be in Dubai and then the next day be in Brazil, because of the fact that like from a viewer's perspective, we often forget that kind of like they only see the upload sequence rather than the kind of chronological nature of a trip going into another trip and it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

I think when I met you, I met you in Dubai, and the next day you're going to Brazil.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

And it was like, and then you stayed up there for like two weeks, and then it's just like it wasn't even two weeks, it was five days. Really?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Yeah. And then we flew to Manchester and then on to Norway.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Really?

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Wow. Mate, well, thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. You have grown a YouTube channel in how many years? Two years? Maybe three. Let's say three. Let's say three years. And when I checked this morning, it was at 13 sub million subscribers. Yeah, almost. Do you know how crazy that is, bro? Yeah. Did you realize how bananas that is?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah, it is it is crazy. We we kind of normalize it. And I I kind of like that because it keeps us all grounded. Like, but it is a nuts thing to have done. Yeah. And we just kind of God, it sounds like a footballer. I was gonna say take each day as it comes, but it really gave it to half smoke, yeah. Just just head down every single day, work really hard, try and work as hard as you absolutely can. Yeah, um, but yeah, do that, and then who knows where you'll end up.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

I mean, mate, you definitely um took the ball by its horns for sure and and roll there. I want to know, like, and probably the viewers want to know as well, because you know, your story is absolutely fascinating. Like, why did you start the channel?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Well, I started it the the real story comes from the fact that I used to work at Sky Sports and I used to work on a small team that ran their YouTube channel. So I like to say that I was kind of a YouTuber but for Sky Sports because I handled all stages of production. So in the YouTube Sky Sports world, yeah. Okay, so so I'd go on shoots, I'd come up with the ideas, I'd I'd film them, I'd bring that back into house, edit it. I'd already had the title and thumbnail locked, create the thumbnail, upload the video. So I basically there was no stage of the YouTube kind of process I didn't understand and didn't know how to do. So in that sense, I was a YouTuber, but it was the fact that I had the kind of USP of working for Sky Sports, so we had access to the big players and stuff like that. So I learned all the skills that way, and then I met John through the fact that he had a podcast about a fancy football game that I was playing. Okay. He had me on as a guest, okay, knew what I did, and then from there decided to basically say to me, Okay, do you want to help me out on a freelance basis? And I started by doing that, and then he had the genius idea, really, after watching a Dire of a CEO episode where he basically thought, let's give this guy ownership and effectively go into business together on a channel which had I think like 7,000 subscribers. That was his his channel at the time. Yeah, his channel at the time. And then basically from that point, we decided to do it a bit on the side, kind of side hustle, etc. And we were doing okay, but ultimately it wasn't really gonna go anywhere with that with that mantra. You kind of need to really go for it and take the ball by the horns. Otherwise, it's a full-time job, right? Yeah, yeah. We were kind of just doing a little bit on the side. I was saying, okay, I'm working at Sky, I've got a salary if I can top this up and make a few quid on the side in the evenings and happy days. Yeah, um, but then we decided fuck it, we're just gonna go and quit our jobs. So I was a Sky. Really? Yeah, and I was making good money, like, yeah, and I was comfortable and I had a good pension and all those kind of things. Yeah, um, I was in quote unquote in my dream job, and John was an air traffic controller, and that's a whole story for another day.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

John was an air traffic controller.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

We've just got visions of him landing planes like with his voice, which is like so iconic, and then being like, Isn't that that guy?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

It's funny actually, because like he could actually now your videos could actually now end up on planes, really, couldn't they? They could be on like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

But yeah, so he he was he had an even higher paying job than me, and in a career that you don't really leave, like I've heard him say countless times that no one leaves, like being an air trafficker, yeah. It's just the safest job ever. You do it until you're 65, um, and then you retire on an amazing pension. So, really, why why would you leave? And I think like both of us just have this like ambition in us and this want to kind of make sure that we fulfil our potential. Okay, and we we clicked immediately, like we are so we have so much synergy between us and the way we we behave and our interests and and so on, that we just clicked and what works so well about us and the kind of yin and yang of us is that we don't step on each other's toes at all. So he's amazing on camera, but and has become amazing off camera, but at the start at least, was new to this fresh, and I had all those kind of learnings from Sky. So together we were kind of like somewhat of a complete package in the early days, and I didn't want to be on camera, so it was this amazing um synergy where it was like, okay, let's just both stay in our lanes, yeah, knuckle down, and see where this takes us, really.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Look at you now, mate. You're on camera now.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Watch out, John, it's coming for you, mate. Yeah, you're safe, you're safe. I mean, it it is an incredible story, mate, and congratulations. But like, I can't help but think of like all of like the hardship and the turmoil and like the craziness and the all the flights and the travelling and the producing and all these different types of things that come with like growing a YouTube channel first and foremost, but also growing a YouTube channel to your size in such a short space of time. Like, how difficult has it been to get it to where it is now?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I think incredibly difficult to be honest, and it it is ultimately needs to be an obsession that ultimately is is the only way that something like this can succeed to the level it has done. Because both of us and our wider teams now are all just dialed in and we absolutely want to be the best, and that's kind of like a mantra that we live by. And if there's anything that we can do to make our content better, we will do it, and it doesn't it doesn't stop anything. It's like if if a hook, like for example, I'm working on a hook right now or an intro for our upcoming Neymar video, and it's been edited, but we're gonna need to kind of rip it up a little bit, not too much, but kind of the structure needs to be torn apart, and there needs to be a lot of um heavy lifting and editing, and it's like that's gonna cost more, it's fine, this needs to be done, needs to be right, it needs to be the best that it can, so that the video can go on to achieve what we know it can achieve, and it's about never taking uh taking shortcuts, really.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Really? So you're always like just optimizing every single little thing, learning from previous videos, yeah, learning from like are you like like deep into the analytics as well for every video? Like how how obsessed are you?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

I I love analytics and I I'm on YouTube Studio all the time. So if you look at my screen time, there's no doubt that's top, and it's it would be clear by a long way. Yeah, but I wouldn't say I'm deeply in the weeds of the analytics, maybe as much as I would like to be, because of the fact that my job is so intense. Because I have to be filming and creating and ideating and scripting and all sorts, it's like the actual kind of review section of the content, it becomes more of a feel and a more of a kind of in time as you get more experience, you you get a feel for what something is why something has worked. Okay, and and you feel fortunately a lot of the time you feel that before it goes live. Right, okay. So you can kind of catch and it could be anything from pacing to um does the viewer feel like they have enough information to take them on the journey to the end, or is there enough reason to stay? Like, because that's a big thing that I think a lot of people forget. Like take a step back from the content, watch it from a fresh perspective and say, like, yeah, okay, do I have enough uh reason to stay? I mean, content at the moment is there's there's such an over demand demand in some terms of content.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Why would they be watching your video? So you're constantly asking yourself, like, you know, why would they be watching this 30 seconds of this video? Why would they stay for another 20 seconds? Why would they stay for another 20 seconds? 100%. And how are you how are you changing that? How are you adapting it to to make it better all the time if it's just like a feeling? Is it do you think like you know your audience better than they know themselves, potentially?

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Uh I think that's that's somewhat fair to say from like a strategic point. Like, for example, the an average viewer might not understand necessarily the the nuance as to why they're still watching, but I would have a grasp of that. So, in that sense, I would say yes. But I think over time it's about developing and and levelling up what you do, and that can come in in a lot of senses. And it it I for me it's the one percent, like understanding why a hook from let's say from a visual perspective is is too cluttered, or what can we do to find synergy between the thumbnail and the first frame of the video, right? All these kind of things that, like you say, a viewer just would not be aware of, but equally it would be a reason as to why they've kind of found the viewing experience more enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, it's like you know what they want and they're just watching it and enjoying it, but you know what you want because you've posted so many videos and you've learned and you've you've you've grown and you've like you said you're trying to get that one percent. I mean, sometimes not even just one percent, it can be even smaller than that, sometimes 0.1% of like and a microimprovement, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

But they can have the biggest impact as well. It's one of those where, like, let's say, for example, uh uh uh holding the viewer's hand from a progression perspective, like, does the viewer know where they're going on this journey? That feels like kind of at times a small edit. It can be quite a small edit, it could be like a couple of emojis on top of a screen. It's not any, it's not laboursome. People people can take that as it's been nabbed already, so take it and run. It's not an easy and not it's not a difficult thing to to do, effectively, but it's that kind of thing which can have a wholesale effect on the retention of a video because just putting emojis on the screen. Yeah, so that was one of the things we implemented maybe like a year ago to to guide the viewer on that journey. Okay. So uh it's not we don't use it in every video, but it's sometimes quite useful if a video is gonna happen in stages, for example. So like John might be trying to stay inside a stadium and and at the top of the screen we have maybe an emoji of a phone and then a toilet and then a something and then something to say okay, he's gonna take a photo and then on a screen that's visually supported by an emoji, and then that emoji is gonna slip away and it up comes the toilet because he knows about to head into the toilet and hide. Okay. So ultimately then the viewer knows, okay, cool, we're going through this in stages. Okay. I'm in stage two. I know there's four stages, so if I'm 10 seconds, 20 seconds into a video, I know that I can somewhat expect this to be a 40-50 second video. So it's all those kind of points that allow a viewer to know where they are in the journey and with that kind of extra information make a more informed joy and choice as to whether they want to stay. What about sound?

SPEAKER_01 12:26

How much does that affect the storytelling?

SPEAKER_00 12:28

I really like sound design, and I think like, for example, if if someone was running up some steps, I'd make sure every footstep was supported by sound. Really? And put in in post. Like, for example, most most of our content is the actual sound from the audio is or the camera is stripped away and SFX brought in because you obviously a camera's not gonna pick up someone climbs some steps, or if they are it's gonna be muffled in the background of like chatter. So I'll always bring that kind of SFX in to I think it immerses you in the story a little bit more, and anything that can bring you a bit deeper into the story is worth doing.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

So you're really trying to like uh like animate the content as much as you possibly can in a way from from visuals, from like visual anchors to to like sound anchors, to the speech, to like subtitles, it's like every single little thing. There's not just like one thing that just makes up a short great, right? It's it's lots of these little things that combine and and then work together, then eventually you'll find some some success. Yeah. I mean, you guys have got some shorts on your channel which have like over 200 million views.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah, I think our our most viewed is 250, 260 million.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

That's crazy. 250 million people that viewed that one shot.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah, yeah, it is absurd. Like that was that I think the one in question, the Adidas football video, um, which was a brand deal as well, by the way. Um, was the most weren't they lucky, eh? Yeah, yeah, honestly. But and I know firsthand that they were very, very happy with that before they weren't.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Um you should have done a rev share like you and John at the start.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

But that was the most viewed video in the world that week. Really? On YouTube, and there's 20 million videos uploaded every single day.

unknown 14:06

That is bananas.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

So like that is bananas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Where does where does someone start when they if they want to create a YouTube channel like the John Ellis channel?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Like us. Um the beauty is you you really don't need much investment if that's if that's the barrier to entry. Because I I remember when I when I was at Sky, I used to think I'm too late to this. You're too late to YouTube. Yeah, I genuinely used to think that because I used to watch Chris MD, I used to watch KSIs of this world, and I, when I was 19, wanted to be on camera and thought, okay, I'm too late. Because YouTube used to work in a different way, right? I'm sure you're aware, but like sub boxes were kind of king back in the day, and and YouTubers who got uh early bump in subscribers effectively had this army of viewers who'd go and watch their content. So back in the day, content was very, very different. You'd find crossbar challenge videos with one camera on a on a tripod with no microphone, just a top mic, would be on eight million views. Yeah, and I I know for example, Cal Freeze's most viewed video is a crossbar challenge. Really? He's making incredible videos now, like some of the best in the entire space. Um, and his most viewed video is a crossbar challenge with a top mic on. So it's like the the game has changed differently. So ultimately, back in the day, you'd have this army of viewers who'd watch your content almost almost regardless of what it was. There'd obviously be skill to it, and but now YouTubers and uh producers and everyone who works in the scene are so so good, and they are, in my opinion, the absolute cream of the crop. They understand content better than anyone, yeah. And the level at the moment that content is at is just so absurd.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

It really is. Why so if the level of content is is so absurd, why do you think the barrier to entry to start a YouTube channel is so low?

SPEAKER_00 15:50

Because we've all got phones, okay, and that is absolutely enough. Like I can say this hand on heart, like it is enough. It's all you need is a phone.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Because Do you still film things on phones?

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah, at times, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I I sometimes come away from I pretty much always come away from filming on a phone thinking we should do that more often.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Really?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah, just because it's easy, it's like it's easy, and my feeling often is how do I get the best content onto the memory card? Like, how do how do I film the best content? And it's often about the way the person on the camera feels about the situation.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

So, like, let me put it to you in them in the simplest way is that we've done videos in the past where we film members of the public, and if I was to film that on a Sony FX30 with a big monitor display at the top, yeah, you best believe that person's gonna freeze up and go, What is happening here? Like, I'm being filmed. Yeah, what is this for? Is this for the news? Okay, like I'm my guard is up, I'm frozen. Yeah. If I was to film that on a DJI Osmo Pocket 3 or an iPhone, yeah, almost don't even realise it on camera.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

So you're saying just because you're filming on a phone, it feels more authentic, and that's what YouTube is built on, right? Is personalities and being real and just being true and normal to yourself, and the actual device that you're filming on helps that massively.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah, and the quality is so ridiculous now that like if that was the anchor, if that if you're going, okay, I want to film on a we film on an FX30, and then I want to film on an iPhone, yeah, the difference between those, yes, like there is differences, but equally, the average viewer can't often discern those differences.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

No.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

So if you're wanting to hop between the two, and absolutely if you're in a studio environment and you're filming like a guest the footballer or whatever, I mean this is all about phones if people remote. Yeah, it's all just iPhones on the child. But it's about what you want to communicate, right? So with this, like if you were to film this on a phone, yeah, there's a recognized recognizability in terms of content that's similar on a phone. Someone could see, okay, this was similar on the phone. You want to portray the image that this is a high-end podcast, which it is. So of course, yeah, you want you want to uh match the equipment to that. But equally for us, like when we're filming run and gun situations and it's like we want to film the chaos of a scenario, it's often better just to kind of like bob and weave with an iPhone, yeah, and and make sure that you get the shot rather than feeling like oh I missed a shot, but it's in 4K and it's incredible. Just getting my shot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Your most popular shot on your channel is that on an iPhone?

SPEAKER_00 18:26

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, shorts, shorts, iPhone or Google Pixel, which we film on now as well. Really? Yeah. Was that a brand read? Uh yeah, it might as well have it is it. You can have that one on Google. It is a requirement, so I wouldn't let them think we're not.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

That's funny. That's funny. So so the barrier to entry for for cost is is pretty low. The barrier to entry for for for ideas, no, that's the thing I'm interested about, is so many people worry about like how they're gonna film things and what they're gonna shoot a lot of the time, and they don't focus on ideas. I mean, I think I probably don't know the know the answer to this question already, but how much do you guys obsess on your ideas, on your titles, and your thumbnails?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, we obsess to the highest degree. Because in the past we haven't, and I think like that's the beauty of YouTube, and it's that constant learning. And I think my biggest the thing I always get across is that nobody's perfect, yeah. And that if you accept that and you're objective enough to believe that, okay, then you're always going to get better.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

So like two years ago, I was way worse than I am now. Yeah, a year ago I was worse than I am now, and in a year from now, I'll be better.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

So and it's from that perspective of like understanding that I'm always going to improve. Okay. So ultimately, like the idea sets the framework. So I always say that, like, okay, imagine you have a big circle and you you draw that big circle, the the that circle is as big as the idea is. And then everything you do from the idea stage, so from filming it to scripting it to editing it and uh packaging it, uh, sets the size of the eventual circle, which is how well the video performs. Okay. But that circle can't be bigger than the idea. Okay. So ultimately you need to make sure that your starting point is really, really strong. Okay. So don't pick a path that you don't want to walk down effectively.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah. I mean, some of your titles and some of your ideas are just like ginormous. Yeah. I think people a lot of people might get scared of that sort of title, but I mean they're so clickable, right? And they're so like you say one of your titles out loud and you're just like, wow, like that is just that's such a sick title. And there's a lot that goes along with making a video of that title. Does it ever scare you when you come up with a title that's just like too big?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

No, because I think now like we we kind of know that you don't need to upload every single month. I'd like to, I'd absolutely love to, in fact. Yeah, but you don't need to. Yeah. So ultimately it's about making the best video possible. So we know, for example, that we've got 12 really strong videos in our plans. We probably won't make all of them because others will pop up along the way. But we have like a 100 hours to meet Neymar, which is coming out very soon. Yeah. And we knew we were going to do that from the moment that the 100 hours to meet Messi video did well. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Of course, we were going to do 100 hours to meet Ronaldo before we get on to Neymar. But that's a seat uh almost like a series now for us. And it's a massive, massive quest. But ultimately, we can go on that quest a couple of times and fail, but we'll get the video. And we have examples already where we did 100 hours to meet Haaland and failed. So we filmed in Manchester, we flew to Norway, we tried to meet him in various locations and didn't meet him. Yeah. So that video doesn't exist and it will never exist. Right, okay. So we're accepting of the fact that sometimes we'll try and we'll fail. Yeah. But ultimately it's because we want to punch as high as like 10 million views video that you kind of need to know, okay, I'm gonna fail sometimes. But it's in the quest of achieving a huge video. So if I could go and do this. Tomorrow, then ultimately the chances of it being a massive video would be quite low. In our instance, there are there are people, of course, who could hit record on a on a great idea tomorrow in the confines of a room and it could do massive, massive views. But for us, the kind of niche that we're in and the uh journey we've gone on, we know that not every 10 million view video is gonna be able to be achieved in a single week, for example.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

And this is it with YouTube nowadays. Like you just need like if you want to get those 10 million plus views, like you need the 10 million plus ideas, right? You need the ideas that are gonna stand up. I mean, I describe it as like your YouTube channel is a bit a bit like a Netflix, really. You're like you're in a lineup of all these other shows that have already had like billions and billions and millions of pounds spent on them. Yep. You need to also like match that level if you want people to click on your show, yeah, other than the latest like hot thing on Netflix, you know? 100%. Yeah. Um one thing I'd like to say is that like a lot of YouTubers and YouTube strategists and people in the YouTube world always harp on about like consistency and harp on give strategic advice about consistency and like posting once a week and you know, and like uploading a shorter week. I mean, looking at your channel, you just don't do any of that. Yeah, like what's the thought process about that?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

We our logic really is we release videos when they're good. Okay, and ultimately, if you did have the mantra of posting every single week, yeah, especially in what we do, the videos would be terrible. Doesn't mean that to say that if you're in a different niche and let's say you're Ali Abdal, you can't post weekly videos and hold yourself accountable to do so. But from that, from Ali's perspective, his videos is filmed in a kind of studio environment, they can and they can be turned around that quickly because it's one camera, two or multiple cameras, but in one setting. So if you're doing kind of videos in a finance niche or something like that, then yeah, I really like the idea of consistency because it is what builds momentum. And like I say, I would love for us to make more videos, but it kind of works against us the fact that we shoot so high.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Imagine making a hundred hours to meet Haaland every week, yeah. And you're doing a different football every week, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

And but who's to say we can't do that in the future if we're able to establish the team structure to have multiple videos churning at any one time?

SPEAKER_01 24:18

John would be absolutely fried, mate.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, yeah, you would, yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, let's say not 100 hours because you actually would just need to spend your whole life trying to be published. Uh but yeah, and in we who's to say we can't make massive videos every week. It's about us scaling our operation behind the scenes so that we can do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah, I think I think like you guys kind of rip up the rule book, but you don't in a way. Like you you are consistent, but you're like consistently making banger videos, and like that's okay. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter whether you post them once every month or once every four weeks or once every six weeks or once every two months. Like, you know, the videos that you're producing are are so big and so grand, and like that the ideas are so so cool, and the titles are so amazing and so so grand that like you are consistent in that way. It's like a different form of interesting take.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

I like that. It's it's like Will and E. Like I look at Will and he like Will for me, Will and Nico, yeah, and my like and Max Fosh and Zach Olsop. Yeah, they're like my Mount Rushmore of UK YouTube. Yeah, yeah. And they operate in a similar way, and I think that's probably where the inspirations come from, in the sense where like Will will happily spend six months producing a video that's cost him tens of thousands of pounds. Like he's spoken openly about his uh world's most amazing places that actually exist video that's cost him in excess of 60 grand. Yeah, and it's crazy. Like at that point, you kind of go, okay, you get a brand sponsorship on it, you might break even. Yeah, but ultimately it's a passion project. And I think like what I love most about Will and Nico and Zach also is that they only release videos that are bangers. Yeah, and then from the viewers' perspective, it's that kind of trust and earn trust that I'm gonna click on this video and it's gonna be worth my while.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Doesn't matter whether it's released every month, every six weeks, whatever, and almost that builds up that anticipation that you're gonna watch the video. And yeah, beta squad do it recently as well. And when I was speaking to Sam, the producer the other day, he was like, We're just gonna film in chapters and we're gonna release in chapters, yeah, because we're gonna make great videos, we're gonna release the great videos, and we're gonna have a break and then make some more and then release some more. And it's just like just screw all that advice about personal once a week. Like it's just it's not really needed. People will come back if they like you and and they know you and you create and you're giving them good value and entertainment or education, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

100%, and with beta squad as well. It's like that is consistency, yeah. Eight weeks of consistency, and what and because they have such an incredible community, and they're so good at communicating stuff like that as well. Like, I I know about the seasons thing, yeah. So do I. So, like everyone knows, right? They're so good in their content, it like, for example, pushing to the next video, and it's like play the trailer, and it's like you know, as a viewer, kind of what's coming at all times, you're really across their content schedule. So, with that, like you absolutely can take that approach, and then you can pause, and your viewers know what to expect. That's better than what we're doing, yeah. Absolutely, it's better than what we're doing, yeah. Because they're ultimately saying, Okay, like we're not gonna upload, but you know that. Yeah, rather than us, we're kind of just going like, see you later, guys.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

So you don't communicate it to your audience, you just you but yeah, but uh you just upload randomly. And then next thing you know, I see this video and I'm like, oh my god, save to watch later. I'll watch that when I'm home. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

But that's because YouTube's so intelligent, right? YouTube's so clever, and I trust that it will find my viewers for that video. Yeah, it does every time. Believe me, I am if I have a subscriber.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Um, yeah, in and then Nico recently um uh produced the I travelled around the world with no money in 30 days. I mean, that just came out of nowhere. Yeah, and then he created a series, he released one every single week, and it was like it was like suddenly he's given me like this Netflix series, like this incredible, like an Oscar-winning like Netflix series. And every single week I was like yearning to like watch this video glued to the series because it was just a banger, and it was just so so good. The the storylines that like introduced different characters, how he found his guy in Thailand again on the top top, like it's just like just an every single bit of like juice you just wanted in a format. I don't care if Nico doesn't post for another two months. What bothered mate? You gave me that, I loved it. I watched it with my granddad, he loved it, loved it, and uh and then he went aboard, he went and bought shades the next day at the supermarket, and like that's what it was about, really. It's like the the landscape of like consistency is changing and it's it's quite nice, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, it's it's good as well because it it like I do like accountability just to kind of play devil's advocate. Yeah, I like accountability, but we we're accountable much more so in our shorts. Yeah, so it's like and and that's from our perspective of like okay, we we make three a week and we'll try and upload on the same days. If a day slips by one, nobody knows. Like if you sat every single one of our subscribers down and asked us, okay, when do we like to upload, they wouldn't have a clue. They would not have a clue. Yeah, it just pops up in your feed and then another video does, and another video does, right? That's how the way that it works for shorts. Like you're not you're not present enough to realise, oh John's uploaded on a Thursday for six weeks in a row. But it's from our perspective, it's it kind of keeps us accountable to be like shorts as well. Like you're in a uh in a brain rot voice.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Oh, it's another video, yeah. You're not like, oh, why is he not uploading it? It's an hour past.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

It just doesn't matter. It mattered more back in the day, like when sub boxes were a thing, because people would try and kind of beat each other by like two minutes. So obviously, if someone's uploading four minutes, I can't upload it at 402. So I can sit at the top of the sub box, but now not at all.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

So do you aim to upload a short every Thursday then? Is that what you say?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

No, we try to upload a short three a week. Three a week. Yeah. Doesn't matter when it is that week. You just we'll try and go Monday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday or something like that. Just to just to space, yeah, just to space things out a little bit and let shorts breathe. Yeah. I think that's kind of important. Um, but really, like just drop videos when they're ready. Yeah, and we're gonna do it. Yeah, don't ever drop a video before it's good. Really? Like that's my best advice. Like, hang on to a video, work on it until it's good. And obviously, there comes a point where like if you're perfectionist and you're hanging over every single micro detail, you do have to press upload eventually. Yeah, but just make it as good as you can and click upload.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

There's a there's there's always an argument, isn't there, like, between the balance of like posting and you know trying to make the best videos until you post, and it seems like you've got like that balance like quite well tuned. For someone like starting out, like when you guys started out, did you just like can did you just like try and get as much up as possible and just keep posting and keep learning or or or has your strategy changed over the years? Like, did would you still have the same strategy you did like three years ago?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Oh no, no, no, our strategy is evolving all the time. It's it's in the middle of a big evolvement. Is that the word? Evolvement. Evolvement. It's in the middle of one of them. But like our strategy at the start was kind of like you say, really like learn by getting some reps in. Nice. We we started by making videos in a split screen style, so you'd have John's head at the bottom, and at the top you'd have some graphics and he'd be telling you a story and he'd take you on that journey. All from home. I remember those videos actually. Yeah, all from home. My life was so much better. The shorts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember those videos. You'd just you'd just lock in and get those done, and it'd be I'd I'd live somewhat of a normal life where I had routine. But now that we travel, that's all routine. What's routine?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I've never heard of that before.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

But yeah, we we just we we consistently made videos, and I think getting those reps in really, really helped us because there's a lot of fundamentals in those kind of videos that still kind of we hold on to today in terms of like storytelling. Like what? Making sure your hook is really, really strong, making sure that you're giving the viewer enough reason to stay. Okay, and then holding their hand on on the way to a really satisfying payoff and maybe giving them a couple of payoffs along the way as well. So that it's not just one linear path.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Okay, so these are these are like your little like retention points along the video, it's not just waiting for the end for that that big payoff. It's it's giving them little little ones that they can pick up and like almost like build a puzzle right through how important is that to retention?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Really important because ultimately if you let's say, for example, in a long form video as well, because that's much, much harder if you have like a 15 or 20 minute video. If ultimately, for example, with on our quest to meet Neymar, that's the only thing we're trying to do, it becomes quite uh easy to lose viewers because uh at every single second of the video you're not gonna be on Neymar's tail. Yeah, like you have to ultimately create a satisfying journey where you can give the viewer real moments of excitement and payoff throughout and spread through the video, yeah, so that you're not just kind of waiting for that master payoff at all times, and that for us can come in the form of trying to meet additional players, okay, but of a lower standard. Yeah. So in this video that's coming up, we've managed to meet Jared Piquet, Z Roberto, Mike on R9, we're trying to meet Kaka. So it's all these kind of things like we're saying to the viewer, at any moment, any of those players that are also really cool and also have a shared audience to the name R audience, any of them could pop it up at any time.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

So it's this strategy of like, don't skip. And that's best that's the best example of that is an R Messi video, which was one night of like unbridled chaos. It was honestly, if you haven't seen the video, it I think it's like it was one of the best videos we've made just from the sense of like we came away that night going, what just happened then? We walk in and immediately are greeted by Messi's bodyguard. Yeah. And then we step into the booth and meet David Beckham's mate, step round the corner, meet David Beckham, then we meet um Paul Pogba. Yeah. Then we as they're walking away, we meet Sergio Bisquets and Louis Suarez, and then meet Messi. And then we're doing a hundred hours to meet Messi, and we've done it inside four hours.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So did you just edit the video in a way, in in a way which you thought, okay, we can actually make this make this last?

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah, and it was a 15-minute video, so there was enough kind of through the journey to make it interesting. Um, but yeah, it was a case of like, oh my concern was is the viewer going to feel enough jeopardy as to whether we meet Messi. Okay. Because there was a guarantee. It's not too easy, didn't you? Yeah, there was almost like from the from the intro, it's like you were in the same environment, you're wearing the same clothes, and your moment, your big kind of hero foreshadowing moment is like Messi walking down the tunnel and John shouting to him. So, like that's the same environment that you've introed to me as day one. So if that's your big payoff and you're in the same clothes, you obviously met him. Or like if you didn't, then you're gonna disappoint me like really early on, and then take the request and ultimately disappoint me again. Okay. So we we there was enough in there for us to make it in terms of uh one single video, and like I say, like it's there's so much energy to it, there's so much chaos, there's so much natural jeopardy. Um, that it's a really interesting video. It's a great video, mate. Oh, you see it? Yeah, gosh, I've seen every jump on this video right now. That's my lens I look for. 13 million subscribers. I genuinely, I'm just like, nah, no one's seen it.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

I've been I've been a subscriber for like a couple of years at least. Really? Yeah, at least two years. Yeah, yeah. Fuck me, mate. I'm one of 13 million, but yeah. No, I've seen I've seen the video for sure. Thanks for that. Um why, why, um, why why football?

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Good question.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

And the reason why I asked this is because when people start a YouTube channel, they have like they just a lot of time they don't know what type of content to create. And I always say, like, what's your competitive advantage? Like, what is it that you know a lot about that not many people know about? Like, what's your unique selling point? I mean, obviously you worked at Sky Sports, was was football your thing and was it John's thing as well? Is that why you decided football?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, it was quite natural in the sense that I came from that environment where I was making content with footballers all the time. So I kind of it was my area and I'd done that since I was 18. So I I kind of understood it as a niche. Also, I didn't want to step away to do something I wasn't passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

I think that's something that I would definitely champion.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

So you weren't passionate about YouTube, but you passionate about football.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

No, I was passionate about YouTube. So YouTube and football. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

This is like the perfect blend of all the things.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

I've been doing my dream job since I was 19, really. It's crazy. But yeah, make sure you're absolutely in love with the niche you're in. But of course, depends what you're after as well. So if you want to make videos about tiddlywinks, you best believe you need to have an incredible product in the line. Okay, because your viewers aren't gonna make you enough money for AdSense. But you could have a micro audience of 2,000 people that love tiddlywinks who love tiddlywinks, and you can make them a Stokely Tiddlywink set, and you can sell it to them at quite a premium. Yeah, and there's been hundreds of examples of of this kind of micro niche where people are making an absolute killing and it's a fact that you don't need to always punch for super, super, super high views, but that's the lens that we like to do because I I I just like the idea of always like raising the bar, raising the bar, yeah, seeing where you can take it. And football as a vehicle, as a niche, allows us to do that because the audience is so large.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You touched on then about about CPMs and not making enough money through CPMs now. And I think like most people from speaking to lots of YouTubers, like there's still this like uh misconception that that's where you get most of your money from is through ad revenue. And like I said, I think if if that was the case, then we wouldn't be able to create these big videos and none of the YouTubers would be able to. And you know, I I think it's you know it's pretty obvious that it comes from brand sponsorships and it comes from like having businesses off the back of YouTube, right? Is are you guys? I mean, like I said before, you look at Nico and Shade, you look at KSI and Prime. Is there something in the works for you guys, like the John Ellis football boot or something?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

There isn't yet, no, but it's definitely top of mind. And I think truth but truthfully speaking, our kind of weakness is the fact that we haven't cultivated enough connection with our viewer yet.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Do you not think?

SPEAKER_00 37:54

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

So you don't think that your community is like No, I don't think our community is strong enough. Really? Are you listening to those guys? This is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

But I think that's like it comes back to the point of being like self-aware and it and also my relationship um with John and being the sense where like it's not me that's the the the guy, and John is also super self-aware and would say the same thing. But because we make the shorts highly optimised, there's not ever any room for personality in our shorts. So you might feel like, Oh, I like that this guy always gives me good videos, I like that he's always kind of like doing nice things for people or raising the bar or whatever. You have that kind of connection, but you don't really know who John is a person yet. And I think that's speaking like truthfully, that's an area we need to improve. Interesting, and that's gonna come from more long forms, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Of course, that's where people spend the most time with you, right? And that's where you gain them gain the most value.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah, and like uh live streams as well. I think live streams for us could be could be great. We need to work it out, we need to understand and study it and respect it as well because it's not an area we're in. Okay. And it's about understanding and and knowing that okay, like if we're gonna join a new new line of work effectively, that there's people who are experts in their field who are live stream experts, and speaking to those and going, okay, how can we work together and and implement what we do know about YouTube and retention and stuff, but also work alongside you to you can teach us about live streaming, and then together we can be this kind of like awesome like juggernaut where we kind of go, okay, can we do things in live streaming that no one else has really done? Potentially. I like that. But equally it's gonna be a long journey. Nice. And but that's where we foster connection. I think once people have spent more time with John, yeah. And if I was gonna pick back to one uh stat, if I was gonna pick one analytic to study for 2026, it's probably gonna be watch time. But can we raise watch time considerably? And really, if you think about it, if you you just do a tilt in strategy and you go from shorts really to live streams or long form, you're gonna see that natural climb. Of course. But equally, if we just focus on it and try and say, okay, let's let's make our viewers spend more time with us, then by 2027, so long as the product's good, it's much more likely to sell than it is today.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah. I think that's what what you're you're you're doing everything right because what you're doing is you're you're spending this time now just giving. Right, you're not taking anything from your audience, you're not asking them to buy anything, you're not nothing like that. You know, you're just giving value, value, value, value, value, entertainment and whatnot. And you know, then it can be later down the line when like you said, something feels natural or feels right, or it feels like you know, you and John actually do want to, you know, start a business off the back of it or whatever it might be, then that's when you like quote unquote commercialise it, I guess. Um, but yeah, if it doesn't feel right, then don't do it because ultimately like your audience are just gonna know. Yeah, like if you just started selling like football boots, like I said, like and just randomly, they'd be like, Why the hell would I buy a John Ellis football boot?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yeah, if we make the John Ellis football boot and there's not enough audience for it, yeah. Our audience have still still seen us try and sell them it. Yeah, so next time we come again, there's gonna be that thing of oh, didn't you try and sell me a football boot? And I didn't want the football boot, so maybe I don't want the football shirt or whatever it is. So like I I'd want to get it right, and I think it's again about speaking to experts, speaking to people who've done this time and time again, and and for them they have all the expertise and going, okay, this is what you should do. I know you and based on your audience and the audience research, this is the product, this is a great fit, and then we can work out how to integrate that product into content.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah, I think it'll it'll come quite naturally as well, right? It won't just like you like you said, you don't want to just shoehorn something in there just for the sake of it, it'll come very naturally, and whenever that time comes, it comes. Yeah, great, right? Great. In in terms of like your relationship with John and like the collaborative like efforts that go into the the filmmaking and whatnot. Um first I don't think probably a lot of people realise, probably do now by watching the this video and seeing the title, but they don't probably don't realise that there's two of you in this channel, right? It's not just John running the entire ship and filming everything and editing himself and also your team as well, yeah, yeah. Who I met as well. Like, how collaborative is that is that process um when it comes to like creation of your videos?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Incredibly. I think like myself and John legitimately probably haven't missed a day of speaking to each other for the last three years. Like it's like a marriage, then it's what you're saying. It is a marriage, like we're we're married in every sense. We have a shared joint account for Christ's sake. Okay, do you know what I mean? Like we've got a business.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Sleep in the same bed or each other, genuinely sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Yeah, yeah. I've done that with my business partner as well. You've got to save money. Someone in the world ain't cheap, bro. Yeah, exactly. A hundred percent. Uh just share a bed. Yeah, easy, easy win. Save some money. But yeah, we like we work so well together and we have such synergy, like we can shoot incredibly straight with each other. Really, and it's never gonna be taken the wrong way. Like, I'll tell him when I think a line of VI is not being delivered right, and he'll say, Okay, I think I'm bored at this stage of the video. Yeah, and it doesn't offend us because it's like we've both got a shared mission of making the best videos possible. Yeah, okay. And we're neither one of us is saying anything with malice. Yeah, it's all to benefit the other person as well. So it's like, okay, listen to these opinions, take them on board, and together we'll we'll both benefit from it.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

There's an end goal, there's a collaborative end goal, and yeah, whatever you do, whichever direction you go, is always like you're always both trying to get towards that end goal together.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah, and I think it's it's it's been the secret to our success is the fact that we both have each other. I think both of us would say that because without John, I obviously wouldn't be able to make YouTube videos because he's he's so good on camera. But then without me, especially in the early days, it's different to some extent now that we've got a bigger team. Yeah, but without me, John wouldn't be where he is. Yeah. So it's like it's a beautiful synergy of like accountability as well, another part, especially in the early days when you're when you're trying to scrap over every penny. It's a case of like if we don't make a video today, then we're not gonna get paid.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

It's really as simple as that. And like when you've also got someone else that you're trying to pay, it's that little bit more accountability. Because I think if I was working on my own and I was like trying to do the on screen stuff and edit and ideate and it It's so much. Yes. It's honestly like so many job roles roll into one. Um and also the other part is that you've got to then constantly motivate yourself. Because like I have days where I'm like working from home and I'm like maybe not in contact with people as much. And I think, oh god, this is if I was doing this on my own, I'd be so tempted to turn the TV on right now. Play FIFA, yeah, let's go. And I know I know creators are like that, and I won't name anyone, but like I spoke to people where they go, like, oh, do you do you work like eight hours a day? And I'm like, no, well, like ten. Like, I work ten hours a day. That's half a day, mate. And then they're like, oh my god, like I'll like maybe just do some like clips on my phone for two hours and then I'll like play FIFA. And I'm like, Yeah, not if you're running one of the biggest uh UK YouTube channels in the world, just I think it's like treating it like a job, like it's a job, but like like some creators still get looked down as if it's like not a job. It's one of the most difficult jobs like I've had the experience of doing, of course. But like it's so full on, it's all consuming, and you can never switch off. So it's a case of like, yeah, just really knuckle down, and the and the fact that we have each other to to motivate each other to do that means that like John's always travelling for content. I'm always travelling, but it's always for the purpose of helping each other.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah, that's sick, mate. That's really sick. I mean, it's like like you said, it's not a nine to five, it's a full-time job, yeah. Just creating and owning a YouTube channel, like it's just it's a heavy amount of world. Like I call it like the social media beast, like it's a beast and it needs feeding. Yeah, it needs feeding a lot, it needs feeding a heck of a lot. And like, what does it take to to make like one of your YouTube videos? Is it take just it just you and John? Is there editors? Is it like like loads of miles of travelling? Like, is it like millions of cameras? Like, what does that process from start to finish and who's involved?

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, it depends what the video is, but there's the I'll take you through like one of our biggest maybe. Okay. Yeah, gone.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

And the Mbapp Mbappe one?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

The Mbappe one, yeah. So that was ultimately that was a lot of time spent in ideation, to be honest, maybe more so than we do now, because of the fact that we have more case studies to iterate off of. Okay. And back in the early days like that, um, we didn't have anything to bounce it off in-house, yeah. In like in terms of our own content that's gone out. So it's a case of like really spending ages working out what to do with Mbappe. So we knew we'd have him for five minutes in a single room.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Literally was five minutes, huh?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah, on the on the on the stopwatch. But there's no way you get a second more. Um, and it's a case what do you do in that single confined space?

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

And we decided to bring someone blind. Kidnap your friend, right? Yeah. Take them on this massive long journey, take them through various different spaces to try and give them clues as to where they were.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Did they know they were being kidnapped?

SPEAKER_00 46:51

No, genuinely, we turned up at his door without any sort of pre-warning.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

So, what about, right? This is what I love about your videos, is that the stakes are so, so high. Like, to the point where, and I'm like you said before, you've got these big ideas, some of them don't work. You know you've got this five minutes with Mbappe to film in, right? And you want to kidnap your friends. Yeah, yeah. What about like if your friend wasn't there, we'd pop to the shops or like do I just like it? So there's there's elephants.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah, no, you are right. He he genuinely had no idea we were turning up, but we were liaising with one of his friends to basically create a ruse as to like he's gonna arrive at the time we arrived, okay, and he's gonna clear his day so that they can spend time together.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

So we basically knew that his day was blocked out.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

Okay, so we knew it's free, you knew it was gonna be there, and you knew what if you just said no. Yeah, there is that. There is like this guy has no reasons to come with you. He goes, I'm gonna blindfold you and just just take you somewhere. Obviously, you know him well enough, like, and he knows what you do for videos, so the chances of that maybe is potentially slimmer, yeah. But the stakes are still high. I mean, when you met um uh I forget his name, the Manchester United uh Kobe Mainu.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Yes, when you met that to me is the highest stakes video with doubt. Like that was that was honestly about half an hour away from not happening, even though Kobe Mainu's like lined up and we're gonna get him at let's say like half three, I can't remember. Yeah, like so. We we basically set out on a quest for those who don't know to try and find a taxi driver who said Kobe Maneu was their favourite player, and then basically it's harder than it sounds.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah, and I in Manchester though, right? Yeah, in Manchester taxi driver.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

We honestly must have taken 20 to 30 taxis back and forth from Old Trafford to various places and Ubers and all sorts, just to try and speak to them. And every single time get in the taxi be like, Oh hi, who do you support? You'd immediately get Liverpool, and you'd probably brilliant. This is so long, and the time's just ticking down. And eventually you get a United and you're like, Hey, brilliant class. It's like, who's your favourite player?

unknown 48:57

I don't really care.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

You're like, Oh my god. So we had lots and lots of that, and then eventually we we took a taxi off of someone's advice all the way out to where there was a rank, and we thought, okay, let's hit like five of them without needing to get in the taxi, do the journey. Make sense because time is ticking. Turn up, and there's one taxi. We're like, oh my god, we've taken a long one all the way here. We speak to him, and he says he's a United fan, says he's goes to games. We're like, okay, amazing. Who's your favourite player? Kobe Mayne. And we're like, oh my god, we were like an hour, two hours until we need to see this guy. Um, and eventually we kind of convince him, like, okay, we can't tell you what's happening because it just ruins the whole video. Like, yeah, there genuinely was no like intel from his side, it needs to be trust.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

So and you don't know him, we don't know him, he needs to trust you, yeah. You're gonna blindfold the poor fella, put him in the back of a car, yeah. And he also might not want to be on camera or be on the YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah, you know, he he he's just a guy, right? And that's what I love to watch that video. He's just a guy. He doesn't have any aspirations to be on camera, but he's talking to us on the on the way. Oh, my kids watch YouTube, they love football, and I'm thinking, okay, they probably know who John is. Like I'm saying, I'm saying to him, do this. Like, you will not regret this. Like, I can't tell you what's gonna happen. That's what you're saying, but do this. I can't tell you what's gonna happen, but trust me, you're gonna look at it.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

A guy you've never met. Yeah, trust me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Stick this blind card on.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Stick this light bottle on. You've never met me, I've got a taxi all the way out here to come and see you. Don't know who I am at the middle of the day on like a cheese there or something. Trust me. Yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

And he did, yeah. And we we basically turn up to the event because we were going back to like the more logistics retention strategy around that video. It's like, let's get a copy manual on video on a on the video as early as possible to satisfy the viewer. So John heads off and chats to Cobbie and gets a little bit of like additional value and says, Okay, I brought someone blindfolded to meet you, gets his reaction ultimately, and heads back to the car and then says to the guy that at that point I need you to wear a blindfold. So it's like the stakes again, like going back to the viewer, it's about saying, like, okay, there's so much on the line here. Yeah, like he can say no here, he can say no here, he can walk blindfolded into a random room being led by some guy he's never met, he can say no all along the way. So it's like this constant jeopardy, yeah, all the way until you eventually take the blindfold off.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

And the thing is, like, I think the beauty about all of this is it's just real. Yeah. Like, you're not really like you've come up with the idea, but you're not really like you're telling stories in some way and you are sort of controlling a little bit of it, but like there is still a lot of like real things that could go wrong, and that just comes across in the content like so authentically. I appreciate that. And that's what's just like that's what's just genius about it. You're not taking any like you're not like you're not you don't want to sit down and be in control of the whole thing. You know the stakes, you know that this possibly could go wrong. But actually, that that that thing that could go wrong is part of the video. Yeah, for sure. But so something does go wrong, yeah, you just make it part of the storyline.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Absolutely, and you can bob and weave, and like you never know how that story's gonna go. Like, there's only so much you can plan and strategize ahead of time, but ultimately once you go on this journey, it's just so interesting that it's gonna take you on this random journey, and that unpredictability is kind of part of the charm because the viewer's like, I don't know where this is going next.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah, so with the Haaland one, yeah, will you ever make that video again? Yeah, yeah, it will be. And will you refer back to the old content? Potentially, potentially, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

There's definitely there's definitely something to be said about that. I think you'd need to do it in a clever way because if you're saying, for example, like you see, I tried to make this video before and I failed, it kind of says to the viewer, like, okay, you say you succeeded. You want that air of jeopardy. Whilst like we always want to deliver, and I don't we I don't think we'll ever make a video where it's a hundred hours to meet someone and we don't meet them. Okay, because I want to end on that positive satisfaction moment at the end.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

Yeah, but imagine if you built it right up and it's like, oh no, I didn't mean it.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

No, you actually didn't turn up.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Your viewers would just be so fury they'll be like, Yeah, wait, so I've just invested like 20 minutes of my time and I just don't do it. They of course we need to do it every single time.

SPEAKER_00 52:59

Yeah, so like I I'll always I'll always try and do that. So, yeah, potentially we can we can include that, but it's about doing that at the right time so that it doesn't have that kind of knock-on effect in terms of making the viewer think that okay, like I don't even care anymore. I know he's gonna be him. Let me just skip to the end and see that happen.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

If you're a brand and you want to create a YouTube channel, there's so many brands want to, I know you're in the creator space, they don't want to they they they the barrier to entry for a brand I think is is much higher than it potentially is for a creator because they're they know they've got to invest a lot of money, they know that there's like there's no like guaranteed outcome. Yeah, I mean even even with you guys, there's no guaranteed outcome. If you made, I mean, you've obviously got the data and you've made 100 hours to meet videos a few times now. Yeah, like if you did 100 hours to meet um I don't know, like Saka, for example. Yeah, yeah. Like you in your head you think, okay, that could work, we've got evidence that works, but it could flop.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

And it's a lot of investment, a lot of time, a lot of money, and everything else. Do you worry about that, though? Do you worry about that a lot?

SPEAKER_00 54:00

I do, probably more than I should. Okay. In a sense where it's like, I think really when you step back and you kind of take a wide look and like a holistic view of the whole business, yeah. One failed trip to meet Haaland is not gonna break us.

SPEAKER_01 54:15

Okay, so you're looking at it as in like a like an overarching like two-year, three-year business rather than just one single video.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Yeah, and I think that's what a lot of people should do, and it's I'm talking to myself really, but try and not look at every single video as a direct ROI.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

And look at like, okay, what does this video serve me on my two-year, three-year plan? And if it's, for example, like building a connection with your viewer, and you might generate more revenue from like a brand deal on a on a short, right? That brand on a short can kind of fund the long form. Okay. So let's say the long form doesn't land a sponsor, like our name our video at the moment doesn't currently have a sponsor, and that's flights to Brazil, it's several days in Brazil, it's time spent in edit and so on, and then dubbing our videos, which costs tens of thousands of pounds, that video probably will break even, but it might make us a profit. But really, like that's not really that important because the the the kind of goal for the long form is to foster that connection with the viewer, okay, and then we can in time let's try and not like drop the ball and not get a sponsor on a long form again because of the fact they cost so much money. Yeah, but equally, if you take a view of like, okay, the business as a whole generates money from various different avenues, and that money can then fund various different things, okay. But all of it should be kind of on the quest of what's this serving me? Why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_01 55:35

So it's not about every single bit of content making money potentially. You've got to look at it as like your YouTube channel as like a whole ecosystem, yeah, and not okay, I put 100 grand into this video, I got 120 grand out, I made 20 grand profit. Yeah. Perfectly. It's it's all these little things that add to like the whole bigger picture, yeah, potentially other stuff outside of the YouTube channel, what the YouTube channel brings, right? Like, you know, you've got all this fame and this identity through the channel, but then you might do a speaking gig and get paid for that. 100%. You know, all these different like opportunities that come and feed into this whole like ecosystem. Is that the way it's like?

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Yeah, bang on. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so difficult to trace like the effects of that video. So let's say, for example, the Ronaldo video, might someone in Saudi Arabia might watch that and go, Oh, let's invite them back and give them a one-on-one with Ronaldo or whatever, because they've seen that video's done 10 million views. And it's like, okay, if that video doesn't turn a profit, but it leads you to a video where you can interview Ronaldo or spend time with Ronaldo, it's like, well, that video's paid for itself by giving you that video and so on and so on. It's kind of a domino effect. So trying to take this more holistic view and understanding that like not everything needs to be a direct ROI on itself.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And that's what I think that's why brands do struggle seeing YouTube while so many, like so many huge brands just aren't on the YouTube, and it blows my mind sometimes. I think, why have you not done this yet? Like you're putting so much money into like TikTok and and Instagram and whatnot, but you're still not fostered a YouTube strategy strategy or you're just cheating it like like a Vimeo account or like you're dumping ground on videos, it's just bananas, it just blows my mind. Um when you come up with like a when you're speaking to a brand or brand speaking to you or whatever, how do you know that a brand is the right fit for your channel? And not just because there's like seven zeros on the on the invoice. Like, how do you know, like, okay, this brand is gonna fit into my channel, into my audience? How do you know that that's gonna work that relationship?

SPEAKER_00 57:28

It should be something that can be naturally integrated into our storytelling. Okay, and there's there's been examples of that, for example, like with the Adidas football, yeah, where it's like they're wanting to promote the new Trionda World Cup football, yeah, and we can produce a video where we put a tracker inside a football and leave it there to be stolen. Someone steals it, where does it go? I'm gonna go and find it. Oh, get it back, amazing. So the Trion is a prevalent part of that story. Okay, it's in there from the second we start the hook all the way till the payoff. It's absolutely unavoidable. Yeah, we can also pop in a line saying, I hear the new Trionda World Cup football.

SPEAKER_03 58:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

And then from the brand perspective, they can tick their um boxes to be like, okay, people know what the World Cup football is, they know it is at all World Cup football as well, not just a random football. Yeah. So it's been attributed, it's not just screen time because I think there does need to be some brand attribution uh attribution, so you ultimately know what the thing is that you're promoting. But yeah, when when a brand lets you kind of naturally integrate their product into the story in a way that's not going to harm retention, that is the goal. Let's say you're buying like a Coca-Cola advert on a billboard, that and someone walks past it on the way to get to the train, that's one impression, right? And a view on YouTube is one impression. If I'm watching a video that's 60 seconds and there's various different co cans in it along the journey, it's almost several impressions because it's several touch points. Or you could look at it as one elongated impression that's more valuable than a passing train billboard. But it's an impressions game. So if we can give you 200 million impressions, that is worth a hell of a lot of money. Really? So that is the way I like to work with brands when they understand that okay, we're in an impressions game because people ultimately sometimes push too hard for let's say, for example, let's pick Red Bull because we've not worked with Red Bull, and they go like okay, and try the new flavour of Red Bull watermelon where it's made with 100% watermelon and no artificial flavours and so on and so on. Yeah, but all of that is a blatant ad read, which the viewer will naturally be more inclined to swipe away from. And the evidence is so clear for us. And I like to work with brands who I can get into cause of on the early stages and be like, let me show you the data of what you're proposing to do will do. Yeah. And it's so black and white that I can say, look at this drop in your retention curve. This will happen if we do this. And then, for example, some will want you to make a reference to the product inside the first five seconds or in the opening shot. So that drop, if we lose the viewer instantly, that's so damaging because ultimately it's less viewers to then take on the journey. If we take a hundred million people all the way to the end of the video and then tell them about the new waterman of labour and we lose them on the last five seconds, you've still had, let's say, 60 second video, you still had 55 seconds of pure enjoyment, and then they might leave. But ultimately, if you lose two, let's say six seconds out of a 60 second 60 second video, you've lost 10% retention. Yeah. If we can delay that until three seconds before the end, there's yeah, five percent retention, and so on and so on and so on. Okay. So it's like saying to the brand, work with me here. We want to make videos that get views. You want your product to get views. We're on the same team. Yeah, like we both want the same thing out of this. So if we work together, then ultimately we can get more eyeballs on your product.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

And and it goes back to the the argument as to why a YouTube view is so much more valuable than a TikTok view or even a YouTube short view. Yeah, because that one view for 20 minutes or that one view for like 10 seconds or five seconds, just think about the difference. It does that doesn't matter whether you've got a million views on your TikTok. If you've got a million views on your YouTube, they've stayed with you a way lot longer than they have to do on there, and it's just so much more valuable.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Yeah. From that's from like an audience fostering perspective, 100%. My problem sometimes with ad reads on long forms is that they if they're not engineered correctly or it's not an integral part of the story, it can feel quite skippable. And I think that's what we as like creators should be really on top of, both for our own perspective and for the brands. Because when I'm working with a brand, I want to give them as much value as possible so that they come back. Yeah. Because one sale is great, but it doesn't really do much for me because it means I'm gonna have to go to market and land a new brand again. Whereas, if for example, we're doing 100 hours to meet Neymar and the brand gets an amazing return on their investment and they go, I would love to work again with John. I can say, Hey guys, we're making 100 hours to meet Haaland. Would you like to sponsor this video? Done, done, sold instantly. I need to be on the same team as the brand. Yeah, okay. I need to be working with you to be like, how do I deliver you as much value as possible?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

And so it's about making that ad integration not skippable.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

It's about how can I fundamentally deliver this at a time of peak interest to my audience and also deliver it in a way that makes it fundamental to watch.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

That's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Unskippable ad reads is what you're going for. Yeah. And like I it's quite interesting what you said there about like peak, like the peak interest. If you've if you've built up this storyline and this this jeopardy and these stakes all the way through, and then you've got this this peak bit of the video when he's maybe about to meet Pete and Aaron, and that's when the ad read comes out. Yeah, you're not gonna skip that because you you you've spent like 12 minutes getting to that point, right? And you know, in if you do embed it correctly and it does feel very natural, then of course you're not gonna skip it, and then of course you're gonna listen to the ad read.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Yeah, and it needs to be delicate and you need to handle that because ultimately, like if people think, Jesus. You're taking me on a 15-minute video where you've been in numerous locations, you've not met Neymar, and you've tried at every single location to make me think you might meet Neymar. And at the moment I realise you are gonna meet Neymar, you start selling me a product, yeah. It's like, wow, okay. So you need to do it in a delicate way, and you need to tell it in a way that makes the viewer feel like I'm not annoyed. Yeah, but it ultimately I think if you can do it in a sensitive way, also sometimes the viewer can be like, Well, I got this for free. Yeah, I think people need to look at that sometimes a lot and go like, this is a free video, yeah. You've not paid anybody for this, it's not even in the sense of like a Netflix subscription fee. No, like YouTube's free. Yeah, it's unbelievable the level of content you can get for free. So if sometimes you need to be served an advert to fund this massive quest, yeah, uh, that isn't necessarily going to turn a profit, then yeah, then it's a small price to pay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

Yeah, it really is. And the pi the the viewers that understand that, I think, are the ones that, yeah. I mean, sometimes like even if the ad reads are rubbish, just because I sound so sad, but just because I like like the creator, I'm like, I won't skip because I know that like you know, they're supporting them if I don't skip. Yeah, and I just sit there and just listen to this ad read. But that's that's a rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Yeah, that's maybe what we need to work on. Yeah. Because if we had that level of community, then there's extra points of retention there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

I always think like I I said this, I was interviewing um uh QuickBooks the other day, and we're talking about people commenting on YouTube videos. Yeah, I don't know about you, but I said I've never once commented on a YouTube video. Not once. Like I've I've been watching YouTube like I agree, yeah, live or die YouTube, right? I love it. I've never commented on a YouTube video once, right? And like if if we if every like brand or creator had that mindset of, do you know what? To get someone to comment on this video is actually like a tough thing to do because people genuinely don't especially comment like good things or nice things, they don't genuinely want to comment on videos that much, and a lot of people don't, they just sit there and watch it and sit in the background. A lot of them don't even subscribe, yeah. You know, um, so so to get that one person just to comment like is is it's just like a crazy you've obviously done a crazy good job, yeah. And and to get lots of comments on your on your video, I think is like a real like key measure of success. Like people have liked it enough to to go out their way to write something about it to press post, yeah. Like just watching it and just flicking off and just getting distracted, like it's so easy nowadays, but they've actually gone and commented. I think like not a lot of people um use comments as a measure of success.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

Yeah, I think that's a great point. It's a really good point. I think we are I our comment ratio is I think about 0.01%.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

So 0.01% of people who watch your video comment.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:40

And that's from like that's m that's my rough estimations of knowing that we get around about a thousand comments for ten million views. Wow. So you kind of go like that's that maybe they're you're one thousand true fans. Yeah. Back to that point. Maybe you only have a thousand. Yeah, maybe, honestly. But like the effort in it takes to leave a comment is is Yeah, like you say, really interesting because I think viewers are really naturally selfish because it's like, well, what do I get out of this? Yeah. So you almost need to incentivize them to get something out of it. So I like the idea of like giving a motive or giving a purpose to a comment. So could you, for example, say, Um, I'm gonna pick one comment from the next video to choose who we're gonna meet next. Okay, and then ultimately you give someone an incentive to be like, Oh, if I want you to try and meet Saka, I'm gonna write 100 hours to meet Saka. And if that's the top comment, we'll go and do it. So you could say that, yeah, and ultimately it's then a call to action of some sort. Yeah, it gives a purpose, it gives a reason. It's not just kind of like aimless commenting for the sake of it, which is kind of barking into a void. It's like that comment could lead to like material change, yeah. And like that then makes a comment give some value back to you. So in the back to the point of the viewer being selfish, that gives them a reward, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Okay, so you've always got to give them something to enable them to take an action of some sort.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

I think I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

Yeah. I mean, I I actually told a lie, I left a comment the other day on Steve will do it's YouTube video. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Have you seen his new YouTube channel?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

I've seen I was it's have you seen it? I've seen him give David Dobrick a car. That is my most recent touch point with Steve Will Do It.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

It's wild. He started it in like October and he's got like two millions of million and a half subscribers or whatever. But if you just leave a comment on his YouTube video, he'll he'll pick one person every week and give them $100,000. Unbelievable. So I just commented like yo Steve. Yeah. I was like, $100,000. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, but that's the length that is the length that creators and brands and everyone is going to nowadays to get people to engage with their videos. Because he knows the more comments he has on his videos, yeah, the more the brands will look at that and think, wow, Steve gets like 20,000 people commenting on his videos, like a super engaged. He knows that a brand will give him more money to sponsor.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Yeah, it's genius, really. It's really, really clever. Yeah. I like that. I like that. I might take that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

100 grand a video, John Ellison.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

Not quite that. But okay, how can how can we do it? You could even say, for example, like you'd need to you'd need to run the numbers. But let's say, for example, you for every like that you get, if your top comment, I'll give you a quid. Yeah. You could say for and and then ultimately it becomes a question of like, okay, how many likes is top comment gonna give? 50,000 likes, top comment. Can we afford this? Yeah, but if if that number made sense, like could that be an interesting way of being like, I'm gonna make it a really good comment as well because I want to get top comment. Yeah, and if I get top comment and it gets 69,000 likes, then there's you there's your money.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Wow, you could literally just make 70 grand just from my comment on a YouTube video.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Maybe start with a penny, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

Yeah, yeah, a penny for every like, yeah, like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:57

Maybe start with a penny and then we'll see how it goes, because you could end up like deep in the whole bankrupting the entire channel having to do a crowdfund or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

Honestly.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:07

Yeah, that's good, but yeah, it could work. It's um it's crazy though, isn't it? Like the the the the ideas and the people are having to to come up with now to like ultimately like stand out on YouTube. And like I said before, like it is it is like you're in a lineup with all these different channels and whatnot. How when when it comes to when it comes to your thumbnails, like how like analytical are you and and how and do you like change them like after like 24 hours or after a week? Like how how cr how like crazy is your your thumbnail process?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:40

It's pretty locked in most cases, yeah. But I do like to have like um A-B testing charts lined up ahead of upload. So the best example I've got for you of this is the um video where we hugged 100 footballers or asked 100 footballers for a hug, culminating in asking Cristiano Ronaldo for a hug.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

So that video before upload had a couple of titles. So it was I know that wasn't quite your question, but they they paired. No, no. It's like I asked 100 footballers for a hug was one title. Yeah. Shows scale, it shows the jeopardy of gay. If you ask 100, how many said yes? There's a couple of curiosity gaps there. Yeah. Who are the 100 100 footballers? So you've also got um I asked Cristiano Ronaldo for a hug. Yeah. Same kind of thing where it's like I like that more in the sense where it's like, okay, it's so pointed that you have to have done it. Because you can't tell me you did something like that and you didn't do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:31

Well, you obviously met Cristiano Ronaldo, he's obviously gonna feature in the video if you asked.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

It's like guarantee of success. Whereas if you if you go for the first title where it's I asked 100 footplus for a hug and you put Ronaldo on, I wouldn't necessarily trust that he's gonna be in the video. But if you tell me I asked Ronaldo for a hug and he's on the thumbnail, it's like okay, he's gonna be in this. And then the next one is I hugged Cristiano Ronaldo, whereas the more the guarantee of like, okay, this person's actually done it, but it removes the jeopardy of he's asked him, but how did he respond? Yeah, okay. So ultimately there's a few kind of curiosity gaps that you're closing with that one. But we run tests to test initially all three of those titles with their primary thumbnail, yeah. Find the winner of that, and then from there you go on a separate test. Almost you think of it like um those tests or those quizzes you could do on BuzzFeed where it's like, what's your answer to this? Yes, okay, and then what's your answer to this one? No, okay, go off on this path. Okay, so it becomes one of those where it's like a flow chart vibes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's like, this is the title we're we're gonna go for, okay. And now from this point, let's have two thumbnails that we test either side, and it's important when you do this to keep control variables. So let's say, for example, the question we're gonna ask between the two thumbnails is John's gonna be proposing a hug with his arms out, and then the next one is gonna be actually hugging Ronaldo. So that there is your answer to the question of okay, which of those is stronger? And then from there, you might find that okay, the the shot of them hugging is the stronger one. So there you can then test the background or the environment. There's they're gonna remain hugging, but now one's gonna be indoor, one's gonna be outdoor. Cool. The outdoor one one, amazing. Okay, they're gonna be hugging outdoors, but Ronaldo's now gonna be wearing a Portugal or an Alanassa shirt. So we're gonna run that test, and then basically you're done at that point. Easy. You kind of know at that point that's my optimal thumbnail. Yeah, that's the kind of path that leads you to that success point. You can then go stupid and be like, okay, can I change the colour of the sky? But that's not gonna have a material change at all. Really? So you shouldn't bother. Really? Just create what you deem to be the best thumbnail based on the mechanics that I've kind of taken you through there, and you're gonna be on to a winner. Those micro nuances aren't gonna be picked up by your audience.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

So ultimately, so it's like mouth open, mouth closed, different colours TV. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

Yeah, no, like a mouth open, mouth closed, don't hate it, like because it it conveys a different expression. So let's say, for example, and I actually I actually did miss the Ronaldo expression. So, like in there, there was another path that you go on where either Ronaldo's pissed off that John's hugging him, or Ronaldo's really happy that John's hugging him. Those two reactions do convey a different emotion from the viewer. So ultimately, test that, and you're gonna find out that Ronaldo being pissed off, of course, negative framing pretty much always wins. Yeah, yeah. That wins, and then you go off and you test the kits and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:26

Do you I know you I know you is your measure of success here when it comes to thumbnails? Is it the click-through rate?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:32

It's A-B testing. So YouTube's got that set up now, so you can put the two thumbnails in against each other and it's gonna be a watch time share. Yeah. So what I love most about that is that you can't look at just click-through rate and deem that to be a success because let's say, for example, the video was a 100 footballer quest to hug them all or not, or ask them all, and then you end with the Ronaldo. Once you click through a video that says I hugged Ronaldo, you're then served into a video, which is ultimately you're watching 100 footballers, it's not quite what you were promised. You could argue that it's over-delivery, which I always like to do. It's like, how can I give the viewer more than they intended?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:11

Okay, so the title. So a lot of people say that the video should like answer the title. Would you say the video should answer the title and then give some more?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

Give some. Over always try and over-deliver. Because if someone comes through and they're like, um the perfect, let's stay on this example. I asked Ronaldo for a hug and they click the video, and it's like, This is me about to ask Ronaldo for a hug, but he's just one of many, many footballers I've asked on a my quest to hug 100 of the world's biggest footballers. You're like, What is this video? I just clicked on this because it's I want to ask Ronaldo for a hug. And it's like, yeah, now you're you're you're telling me you've asked Last Anna Yohimovich, Usman Dembele. And it's like, sorry, what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you can create that kind of emotion from your viewer, yeah, um, and then take them on that quest where they go, This person's giving me so much, and also we're gonna start with Hung Min Son. Yeah, so it's like this is such a guarantee of value, yeah, immediately, where we go, like, oh yeah, Hung Min Son's in this video as well. Yeah, and most people would quite rightly so make a whole video about Hung Min Son. We didn't even tell you, it's just like, oh yeah, and here's Hung Min Son. So it's like try and always over-deliver.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

Wow, wow. I mean, there's so much that goes into this, isn't there? It's like it's it's it's a lot of people think that YouTube is like super, super like creative and like airy, and just like you know, storytelling and whatnot, but like so much of it is based upon data and like and doing these tests and then just like slowly like winning and failing and winning and failing and winning and failing. Where have you guys learned your biggest your biggest lessons? I don't want an exclusive by the way, Alex. No, I'm joking.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

No one cares about me enough to talk to me enough. Everything's an exclusive. So my my biggest learning maybe is the fact that we did a video once where we tried to meet David Beckham when we didn't meet him.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

And we put the video out because times were a bit harder, and it was like, oh, let's put this video out because I'm not gonna fly to Miami again.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:18

I can't afford to do that. Yeah, so it's like this is just kind of what the video is. Right. Um and we put that out and it's on a a million views or something like that. So at the time we were really happy with that. And then I remember speaking to Foot Crunch, um, who's another massive creator in our space, and he said to me, Why have why? Why have you not tried to meet him again? Why have you not ended on a positive note? And that to me was a bit of an eye-opener where I went, uh, okay. Back to that point of like not everything needing to be a direct ROI. Okay. We should have kept that quest going because that video is quite stupidly was it's not even a very good idea now, but it was the idea of cooking fish and chips and delivering them for David Beckham. Stupid idea, not even that good, no proven case study at all. But you live and learn, right? Yeah, and it's the quests that you go on like that that help you get to the point where we're at now. But we should have ended by giving David Beckham fish and chips. That's the ending of that video.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:19

Do you realise what you've just said that I'm mental that is? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

But it's and that would be so difficult to do. But in doing so, we would have also picked up more shots along the way that alluded to the fact we were close to doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:30

Whereas in the edit, I found it like incredibly difficult to even somewhat convince the viewer that this might happen because I'm still like you're so far away from me and David Beckham, like in a different country or whatever, yeah. And there's not a single shot of John and David Beckham in the same room. Right. So, how how on earth would I ever believe that this might happen? And are you going to take me on a 15-minute journey to kind of take me on this quest? So that was a big learning that Foot Crunch told me of like keep the video going. And in turn, we've done that time and time again, and and now we've built to the point where, like with the Haaland video, we can miss. You can miss, we can miss, and then and then go, it's fine, we'll do it again, we'll try again and we'll make it again. And we will eventually meet Erling Haaland. But when we do, it'll be a nice big moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

And he's my best mate, by the way. I can just call him there if you want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:18

Yeah, we'll start the timer.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:22

And it's almost like there's been like this this expectation I built upon your channel, like when you create these videos of meeting Liverpool players or whoever it might be, like you just know that John's gonna do it. Do you know what I mean? You just know that you guys are gonna make it happen. Does that like does that play into your favour? Is it is it an advantage or is it like a disadvantage?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

I think it it probably is an advantage in a sense that like it probably wins us a lot more views from a sense of like we we don't disappoint the viewer, and ultimately as a result, you're more inclined to click the video because you think this this is gonna be what I think it is. Yeah. So I think like if you throw yourself back to the early days of YouTube where clickbait was a lot more prevalent because it wasn't um negatively kind of hindered in the way it is now. So if you were to clickbait and say that you've met Messi and then quite early on it was really prevalent that you weren't gonna do that, ultimately you've clickbaited the viewer.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

But people don't like clickbaiting.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

And they're gonna they're gonna swipe away. But ultimately, if if if you've got more evidence that you're going to succeed in this mission that your packaging suggested you're going to, then uh in time your viewers build up that trust with you and they're more inclined to click.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:32

So I love it. You've achieved so much in the last three years, it's pretty wild, mate. What's um what's the next three years look like for you? Okay, that's too big of a question. Yeah. What's the next 12 months look like? 12 months. Yeah, we could probably do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:48

Because three years ago, you probably couldn't have said that you're in the position that you are now, right? Never, never. I honestly, if you had to ask me how long the last three years of my life have felt, I'd say probably around about 10 years. Really? Yeah, if not more.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

I mean, you look so youthful three years ago, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:03

Really, honestly, yeah. I've genuinely like I've had to had to take a trip to Turkey. There's been a lot of aging done in the last three years, and then the next 12 months will probably be more of the same. But I think for me it's about kind of maturing our business and maturing like behind the scenes of the business, too. Yeah, and and like bringing on more people who can help take some weight off myself, um, top-level people or top-level operators who can also just raise what we do and who are better than me at certain things, so I can take things off my plate and focus on areas um that I'm like a specialist at. Um, and then in turn in time, what that will look like is more consistent long-form uploads because that's something that needs to come. Um, it might again look like a step into a live stream space. Um, and the more immediate future is obviously the World Cup, which is going to be huge for us. I'm ridiculously confident that we're gonna achieve great results out there just because we've got the proven track record of doing it at the first World Cup, we did it at the most recent Euros, and now we're bigger, we're better, and we've got more budget.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:11

So the World Cup is a thing you've got your eyes set on.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:13

Yeah, we've had that. That's been the case since we started working together. The US World Cup, I mean, like it's the US and it's the World Cup, doesn't get any bigger, and from a commercial perspective, I think it could be a real opportunity for us to step into a new market where it's like the US market and the US creators, as you can see from Steve Will Doitt and David Dobrich, they're absolutely minted. Everyone wants an American CPM, right? Yeah, in a way that we as a UK audience aren't really like we we do okay, but it's a different world.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:44

I mean uh America's literally physically like a hundred times size of the UK.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:47

So if we can sell ourselves to US agencies who are running campaigns across the World Cup, then that'll be nice. But also, even if from a perspective of viewers, if those passive US viewers who watch the World Cup for the first time and then decide to step into watching football, we can pick up new audience and there can be US audience. So it's higher watch time, uh sorry, higher CPMs and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

Nice, nice. And then and then after the World Cup, what's the what's the mission?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:14

I think it just comes back to that point of like building workflows and building teams so that our content can be really consistent and really high level. Yeah. Because I think at the moment we're such a small team that we are just couple, we're we're kind of spinning too many plates. How many people are in your team? So you've got myself as head of content, yeah, and under me we've got Jacob, who is our short form um content editor that you've met. Yeah. Uh and we've got a long form editor as well. We've got a brand partnerships lead, so head of partnerships, Toby, John, on camera. Yeah. And then we work with um we work with Seb Lasado as a YouTube strategist. Yeah. So we do touch points with him a couple of times a week. So that's kind of us.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:00

It's quite a small team, really, yeah. The size of your channel.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:02

Yeah, and I think like what I want to do is really grow but in like a healthy way. That's not a case of like bringing in the wrong person at the right time, wrong time. I want to bring in someone who can take stress off myself and John because we're we're two in the weeds of of the content creation journey. Like, John currently today is in production mode, he's working out how to produce shorts for next week. Really? John really is a talent, shouldn't be doing that. But he's great at what he does. So it's a case of like he's the best man for that job. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:37

What we need to do is work out someone who's better than both of us at that, because there is someone to do that, like how to process it almost, how to systematise it a bit, yeah, and still get the same result that you're getting now, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:47

Yeah, like how can we give someone all of the information they need to go off on a quest to find a football pitch that's got a bush in it because John needs to hide in it, and that's probably gonna come out in time for this.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

So like Is that literally what you guys are doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:02

That's what John's doing today. Looking for a football pitch for a bush. Yeah. So like that's something that he's got on his to do list, and he's off trying to make that happen. But that's the job of a producer.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

Yeah, it's totally the job of a producer.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:14

So, like, we don't have an in-house or production lead or a producer or whatever. Okay. Um, so we need to hire for that role, yeah, really. Um, and then in turn, that will take so much task off of our plates that it can put me back into the weeds of um strategizing content ideation, working with editors to make sure their content's as good as it can be, and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:35

Right. I mean, I don't honestly know how you guys do it. It's pretty pretty crazy, mate. And uh yeah, congrats to to all of your success, man. Thank you, mate. Thank you so much. Um, like I said, but from the uh like I said from the start, like genuinely thank you from the bottom of my heart for coming on. Pleasure, man. Pleasure is all mine. It's uh it's been great to pick your brains for an hour and a half, I think it's been it's been it's gone pretty quickly. Fuck it hell. Um you're you're a super smart guy, and do you know what? Like, it's so clear and obvious that you just like love YouTube, yeah, which is just like which is just so cool, man. So thank you. Thank you so much, man. Can we have a hug? Yeah. I like to hug people at the end of the episode. I appreciate it. Thanks, mate. That was it. That was awesome.