Closing the Gap: James Robson on Data, Trust and the Charity Sector

Former Data protection expert from the Labour Party, James Robson explains why charities face unique compliance challenges and how to fix them.

We cover consent myths, AI risks, emotional labour and the practical steps organisations can take to build trust and stay compliant.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome back to the show. I am Lucy Lynch, Chief of Staff at Omnia Digital, and today we're diving into a topic that really doesn't get enough airtime. And I think the real challenge that charities face in meeting compliance while trying to basically stay alive financially, operationally, and emotionally. And so a big welcome to our guest today, who is James Robson. Thank you for being here. And maybe I think it is a slight miracle that we're actually sitting here opposite each other because maybe it was fate that kind of pushed us together through my cluttered Gmail account. And always six degrees of separation. So much in common, James. When I was looking through your profile of working in the arts industry, creating films, working on projects in social care, and uh a qualified yoga teacher to boot. So lots and lots in common. And please do introduce yourself proper. I'm delighted to have you on the show today.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Lucy, total pleasure and privilege to be on the show with you. Um, yeah, I'm James Robson. Um, I've been in data protection for just about a decade and um seen the highs and lows and introductions of different legislations and seen companies through that. Yes, I'm a qualified yoga teacher and uh for my sins, qualified from film school in 2003. So you may get an idea of how old I am as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Amazing, amazing. And umly digital, you know, we created from day one, you know, like an NFP, like a not-for-profit digital community charter, which I know that you came to one of the first meetings on on Friday, where it's a cluster of organizations that meet on the last Friday of the month and we do a lunch and learn session. Um early days, but we're really quietly excited about the impact that we're having and that what we're building. Um, and that's why this conversation is so important to us. So um, I know that you've got a really interesting background, other than being an amazing yoga teacher, and we can kind of maybe get into that sort of political side of it as well, because I think obviously you'll have you'll have learned a lot of lessons along the way, and really important of what of what not to do, probably most importantly. Um, and I think uh one of the questions that I'd like to ask is you know, about the charity sector. And do you think that it's over-regulated and under-supported or both?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

So uh I mean my perspective of the charity sector comes specifically around data protection and how how that works within um within charities rather than the whole kind of charity commission. I'm I'm not I'm not a fai with all that stuff, but you know, um I I don't think charities were supported in terms of data protection pre uh um the introduction of the Data Use and Access Act of 2025. And and it's it's now become a lot easier to for um charities to function um in terms of you know marketing and uh gaining membership if uh if you have a member list or supporter list and how do you manage consent uh and things like that. In fact, the commercial sector had it had it a touch easier um before um August uh of last year when uh Data Use and Access Act uh came came to pass. Um so you know, uh are they overregulated? Yes, possibly. Um uh were they uh under supported? Yes, also um possibly. Um there's there's a lot to do, especially for your charity when you're processing uh very, very sensitive uh personal data, and you don't have the resources to manage it at a standard that maybe a commercial organization would for such sensitive data. So there's a huge disparity there um because you know essentially a charity is more is more isn't likely to use that kind of data, collect it for a specific reason to help people. Um so uh charities do fall foul. I remember in in my uh days as being a consultant uh many many years ago working with an organization that that had lost a list of HIV positive individuals and had decided not to notify them because they thought it would cause them um real distress, and they were in uh in turmoil because the information commissioner's office, the ICO, were obviously investigating and had sent them a numerous emails, and and I was I was uh uh parachuted in to come and sort out and fix. And you know, one of the first things I I said to him is like, well, you're gonna have to notify them immediately. And then that then I addressed the uh the ICO um interactions, and I'm not sure if you'll get away with with a fine or not. Um yeah, so absolutely, yeah. I think there's a lot of will out there, but charities do look after every penny. And having things like the the meeting on the last Friday of every month, I mean, the one we um I I was lucky enough to come along to was about vibe coding and how you can utilize AI to be able to help you run applications or develop systems without needing to put in the huge amounts of resources that that were required to do to do the same things. And that kind of support is absolutely needed in charity sector, I think, uh you know, not just in uh from data protection and data management.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, okay. And I was just like thinking of you know, your one of your previous roles, like working in politics as the Labour Party. And I think I was just like thinking as you were talking there about over-regulation, the public eye, the spot eye, can you get away with it? And I'm not meaning to sort of cast aspersions on the the the main political parties, but I just wonder like what your thoughts are about that because I I think you know, with charities and and and and politics as well, they're they're you know they are very regulated in the public eye. And I just wonder if there's there's some kind of like connection there or something from your work experience and your previous experience that you could kind of like just add a little something to that.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, sure. I I mean I I became the data protection officer for the Labour Party um in mid-2023 and uh worked for them as their DPO for the year before and the year after the general election. Um but uh yeah, there is massive crossover because you know what what does a political party have? It has a membership list, it has a supporter list, it has uh many units, um, the constituencies, which are essentially little business units. How charities are so sometimes set up, they're maybe split out into different units and they're a group, so they're managing these different entities in different ways. Some of them will do kind of outreach or their own campaigning. Is that leafleting? Is that door knocking? So very similar to uh political parties, they'll have a database of um people who are their supporters or who they want to reach out to, and maybe it's uh a database of donors who are uh regular donors and they want to treat them nicely and maybe you know come to the VIP lunches and dinners and meetings and things so they can support the charity. You know, the Labour Party does the same, of course, and you know, has their their own uh something called the Rose Network, which is uh very wealthy individuals coming to you know high-profile events that they collate this this information and keep it secure away from um kind of the rest of its information as well. And how do you do that? You know, there's uh a large online presence um with with the political party. Of course, charities will need an online presence and how are you gathering that information? Is it a Facebook poll or advert on the website? Maybe you've got a uh pixel, a MetaPixel tracking pixel to know what are the uh websites that those individuals are going to and whether or not they are worth targeting with you know adverts that you're paying for to hopefully get them interested in your political campaign or your charity. And and so you know, there's massive crossovers with what a political party does and what a um what what a charity will do, you know, event management, uh policy forms as well. So you're inviting maybe your board and um other respected members of a sector or community to come together and and ask, well, what is the direction that the charity should go in? You know, and which way should the trustees push the charity? Same way the political party has the national policy forum and they come together multiple times a year and have newsletters for their own work on building the policies that the Labour Party will potentially move into government and government departments and become legislation. So within a charity, that's likely to become you know the standard operating procedures and the direction that the charity will go and who they're trying to help, and maybe even where they're getting their their funding from and um and then who who they can help. And you know, it all comes back down to which is the main reason why I jumped into to Labour as a as their data protection officer. It it it it's it was to help people, you know. I I felt, you know, personally the country was going in the the wrong direction completely, and the only way to change that direction was to be part of a political party that could get into power. That that uh would mean it was a change of leadership. Um, therefore, there would be other ideas because any idea was probably better than the Conservative Party ideas that that we were experiencing with numerous prime ministers in a short space of time. So um you know that that's what charities are about. They're about helping people, you know, delivering social benefit to people in a way that will enhance and improve lives. And that is absolutely something that that I stand for in what I've I've tried to align myself with before Labour and after Labour as well. And I've only stepped out of Labour because I thought I could do more for charities and the research community uh than I'd done for Labour. I'd I'd seen them through that period. Um and you know, uh also seen them through multiple investigations and potentially uh data breaches and um lots of complaints and they needed a whole kind of revamp of all of their data protection policies and external facing uh information. And you know, it it's to a level that maybe charities wouldn't be able to to hit and reach um based on the levels of resources because they've got to account for for every penny uh in a charity. And uh I was talking to a to a charity recently and and you know, you know, fair fair play, they they absolutely um need to account for it for every penny and they they do some great work. And you know, I I I just become their their DPO or very early days. I I just uh done a policy uh review for them. And uh the they they came back and uh polite politely declined, which was no issue, but but they had a lot of genuine uh reason for for for declining. They had a structure in place already, which you you'd expect. And it was through uh an insurance uh provider, and through um uh their insurance they had some data protection support, which would give them a pack of uh uh policies and guidelines and bits and bobs, um, but it didn't provide them with the context to be able to complete the policies and the guidelines and the notices correctly um aligned to their needs. And so, you know, I think there's probably a lot of charities that do rely on that insurance and the cyber insurance and data protection insurance uh mechanisms, which I'm sure some of them are completely fine and and worthwhile. Um whereas I think sometimes they're probably very um uh cookie-cutter, not really bespoke enough to one size fits all.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah, exactly right. You kind of hope for the best, right? And I think like what you were saying is about, you know, about this thing, it's about about optics, isn't it? As well, it's about like you know, what you say, what you do, what's at the heart of it, what what do you actually mean? Like they're so important, and we've got you know, amazing charities across the country that get into our hearts and minds and make us cry at the drop of a hat, or you just hear the music is a bit like almost like the John Lewis advert. You know that you're gonna cry probably at some point, you know, when you watch adverts about about about things that really pull at your heartstrings. Obviously, you know, we're um big big supporters uh and ambassadors for you know make a wish charity, and you know, I watch those videos and I can't help but you know cry and just just think, oh god, you know, what what can I do to to make a difference uh to a child's life, you know, today. And I think you know that that that thing of being you know crystal clear about being transparent, about having these rigorous, you know, structures in place so that everyone's protected. And when it comes to data and consent, you know, absolutely like we have to you you you kind of go into this unwritten rule of trust, don't you? That you know, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, I'm gonna donate, I'm gonna find if it's maybe not financial, but my time or this or that or resources or contacts, you expect a degree of transparency and trust, and you know, um this thing that no one else is going to take your data, right, and just sell it to the highest bidder. And I think that's that's one of the crucial things, isn't it? Is about because that trust is so hard to repair, you know, when it when it's been severed. Um, and and we've all seen stories like that in the news, which are horrific and it's really hard to come back, isn't it, from those, you know, kind of headlines, you know.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, no, I I I I agree with that. I th I think you're right. I I mean having the um external professional standard that is expected in kind of commercial organizations um now being expected uh for charitable and not-for-profit organizations, because if you don't have that uh, I guess glossy sheen, um then people aren't trusting what's happening behind the scenes. And yeah, you know, you you you and I both know that's that's very much about kind of the branding and and what is portrayed as the ethos of an organization, you know, charities being the same, but but then if you can't back that up with the actual kind of uh uh systems and processes and that need to be in place to manage and keep data secure, keep it protected, uh um align with the legislation, tell people what you're doing, do what you're telling people that you're doing, yeah, and and you're accountable to that, then um you know you you you may lose opportunities for funding, for support, for donations, for the data that you need, which is in fact uh I I would go as far to say uh as much of a lifeblood for charity as much as a donation is. You know, if you can't process uh people's personal data, you basically don't have an organization. And if if people don't trust you, then you're not gonna process as much, and you're not gonna be able to do as much good as as you may have the ambition to do so. So, you know, that that that is really important, and and um if if you lose that, it it I think it is possible to get that back if you if you if you lose that trust, but um it does take an inordinate uh amount of work, and um although there are mechanisms out there and lots of lots of my data protection colleagues and peers do do a lot of pro bono uh work. There's a there was a network set up by a really good friend of mine, uh um uh Luke Beckley, who um oh yeah Yeah, yeah. Do you know Luke? Do you know Luke?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yes, well, yes, uh from LinkedIn, yes, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good friend of mine, and and he he set up a um a mechanism where charities are able to submit a a need for some data protection support, and then that there's a volunteer-based mechanism beneath that where they can receive that that support from you know a uh a level of professional that has been in the profession kind of upwards of uh seven, eight years, you know, myself being being part of that as as well. And we're we're actually looking to develop a uh a platform to reduce uh that cost burden on um uh on charities to be able to you know maybe use an LM, maybe use a an uh an AI for no the first this is what my organization does. Here's the first pass uh first par set of uh documentation for for data protection compliance, and then actually having a qualified practitioner, um, you know, a senior practitioner, then reviewing that and having you know a bit of interaction to really to really help them. So so we're building that in in the background as well and and looking to make it you know extremely I say cost effective, but you know, almost mind-bogglingly so. I mean, if anything, it's just the platform um costs to be able to make the request and everything else is potentially going to be uh going to be free. So um, yeah, that's that's something that's going on in the background which really aligns to this. And and you know, it's needed. I I I I think people don't know where to go um so much, and they do watch a lot of kind of online um, you know, from the infomercial right through to the the TED talk um about data protection, and then try to do the best they can and try to understand who is a data controller, who is a processor um in this in this scenario. And you know, again, I can I can point to a very recent conversation where a a leading uh charity uh was considering themselves as a data controller when the services are being purchased by a local authority uh to provision the types of care and support. And that they considered that that charity considered the local authority the processor for the data as they're transferring it to them as the controller, even though the local authority is determining the purpose and means of processing through the contract. So it's like no, this that's that's backwards. It's the other way around, and there isn't really that that in-between processor thing. So it's just you know, I can understand where the thoughts come from. And yeah, we've we've had GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018 thrust upon us for many years now, and there's still huge amounts of confusion, and but lots of intelligent people saying, Well, I now know this, so it's this, I got it. Uh, without checking to see.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Because it's about education, right, as well. And I think, you know, like you know, part of this, you know, the podcast is about, you know, is about solve, you know, how do we, you know, omnidigitalize our three pillars of, and then one of them is solve, like, how do we help customers solve problems? And the point of this season for the podcast is all about how do other people go about helping solve their customer problems, right? And I think you know, your platform is is is is a perfect example of that, you know, you're trying to solve a very common problem where there aren't enough resources, there aren't enough people to that that they you know can buy those services, right? And so you're you're creating a platform that can kind of cut through that and then in a very simple but very efficient way, you know, make sure that they can submit their request and then they can get you know the help that they that they need. And I think that's wonderful. So I'm really glad that you're part of our of our you know digital community sort of forum, which is great. So delighted to have met you. And I think the kind of stars have aligned. And I think one of we were just talking about data, and you're just saying about you know, a local authority, you know, then deciding what they were going to do with that data. And so one of my questions was do you think most charities truly understand the data that they hold and the risks of of feeding that data? Because we just talked about AI as well, about you know, if you know, some some Somebody thinks, okay, right, I'm gonna like we were doing the vibe coding last week, right? And I think Robin very clearly said, you know, about don't put in, you know, your your real sensitive data, you know, let's do it on a on a platform of of you know dummy data first and really be careful about the governance and uh and everything that we put into it. And I think do you think there is there's definitely a risk of uh charities but other organizations, you know, for one as well, you know, putting data into AI and not thinking about the repercussions of what of what could happen?

SPEAKER_01 22:36

I think there's truth in that, yeah. I absolutely I mean technology is there to make things more efficient and easier, and if it's gonna kind of cut down a job from an hour to uh to 15 minutes, then people have started to use it in that way. And there's been a big pushback on the you know the automatic introductions of AI into you know everyday working life, you know, um you know, the pushback on uh Microsoft Copilot, for example, just popping up and use it everywhere uh because there isn't that certainty that that data will not be then um accessible to the wider world, not just to our community, but but then um so you know the the I I I don't want to be unfair to to people or charities and organizations. I I I think there's there's a real concern here where if you do upload the wrong thing, then you will fall foul of the regulator. And it it's actually very easy to do so. And you know, do people do it knowingly or not? Well, possibly not, but then that's maybe a wide organizational behavioural piece, training, education, yet again, you know, making sure there's a an official sign-off on the risk, um, comfort, the risk level that an organizational charity is willing to take if they're going to use these AI platforms. Um are the right settings in place to make sure it is a corporate license. Um it does maybe stay in your own sovereign territory, uh, hopefully UK or at least the EU, and if it goes outside of that, uh do they have the right legal mechanisms in their policies and procedures and things? So, you know, all the boring stuff that you that you sort of expect in data protects anyway needs to absolutely get into the AI conversation if anyone's having it. But I think there is a lot of shadow AI, a lot of people using it to help their day job, and they may say, Oh, well, yeah, I'm just uh using Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude to um write me an email. It's like great, but did you put the name of the person in there so it'd help you with the salutation to say hello James, hello Lucy? It's like, yeah, you've just put the personal data in there. Um, you know, where where is that going? And is that your own? Has that been set up yourself or is that the company account or whatever? So um there's a lot of fear there, which I think it is it needs to be there. Um, I think there will be high profile um issues that pop out of this when uh investigations come up or people find that their information is accessible um by someone else when they it shouldn't have been accessible. I think we're gonna go through a lot of that. Um yeah, I I hopefully that's answered the question.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think um what did I want to talk about here? Um so we talked about GDPR and we said like there there is a risk, obviously, there's a risk of everyone, right? Accidentally accidentally breaching GDPR um because they're using AI tools without the proper guidance. So again, like you said, we've kind of like covered that you know, there needs to be a degree of you know, training, education, and and I think an openness to learn as well, right? And a willingness to kind of you know put aside your assumptions, you know, because it's the same, you know. I talk a lot about data culture, you know, in my sort of day job as well. And it's very much about sometimes you have to break down these myths that you really hold on to, that you really truly believe, and then you go, oh actually, but you've got to feel psychologically safe in your day job to go, God, yeah, I need to, I need I need to change this thought, right? Because this assumption that I've had actually it's not it's not going to help us move forward. I need to, I need to reframe this and I need to, you know, kind of, you know, allow myself this space to be able to go, okay, you know, I take accountability for this. And actually, you know, in order to move forward, we need to put that assumption there, and then we need to take the training and the education and go, okay, now we need to go in a different direction. But I think I think that's always interesting. I love that working in organizations where there's that there's that degree of uncomfortability because I think there's a there's a real knack to being comfortable, being uncomfortable, and it's something that I've learned over the years. Working in this space, and it's like there's a each moment of like, oh my god. But then when you can allow and your company can hold you enough to be able to go, it's okay, right? And you know, people fall down, they fail, they move on, they move forward, all right? We're humans, and that's the beauty of of humanity as well, is being able to move forward, right? And I think I think I think for me, this this whole sort of conversation as well is also centered around being able to being in a space where you're allowed to okay, now we need to move in a different direction, and it's okay to and it's okay to do that, right? And I think with all the best will will in the world, we can't be a hundred percent correct and human, right? Uh all of we're obviously always human of getting on the words mixed up then. Um, but we can't we can't be right all of the time, but we can make that we can make a sensible decision, we can get the expertise you know bought in if we don't have it in-house, in order to get be able to make those next best decisions. And I think um I was just wondering if there's a a kind of compliance myth that you know about that's kind of could potentially hold charities back, or maybe other organizations, but obviously today we're centering about charities. And I just wonder if there's a kind of myth about compliance that that that could be could be interesting to just kind of like unpick for a second.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

I'm not aware of any kind of compliance myths per se. Um the the the one that keeps on coming up is that you need to have consent for every use of data. That's a that's a that's a massive data protection myth. That that's that's not true. Um you need uh consent for certain um aspects of use of data, like for for marketing, and you may need parental consent if you're using children's data. And and um, you know, even with GDPR, it's uh 13 years and under that that um it would say that, but but only if you're an information society service, not even if you're just an organization processing children's data, but you know, the the the there is consensus in charities and research that that they would probably get consent anyway, even if they're they're not mandated to do so by law because they're not an information society service. Um so uh no, I I I can't really come up with myths. There there's a number of misunderstandings still. Um and and I I I like what you were saying around kind of uh uh making mistakes, you know, that there's the there's the old uh you know, dare I say, uh corporate cliches, which is uh you know, fail fast, fail upwards, fail forwards, yeah, um, and and learn from learn from mistakes. Um and it it's it's okay to a degree to make mistakes, uh, but if you are processing kind of highly sensitive personal data, then you know take some advice. And um, you know, I some of that advice is quite expensive for really top quality uh people given that that advice. Um and I I'd say in those initial stages, maybe that is something you should invest in. And if you have a practitioner that is of that calibre, then actually what they should be thinking about, rather than just going, you know, big old check for me, and uh no, I'll get a get a high day rate for for giving you some advice, is to go, well, I understand the ins and outs of how data moves through charities and all organizations. How can I give you um information back to you to say you can use data in this way and this will enhance your donations that come in? This will enhance your ability to work with local authorities again, this will enhance your ability to actually grow as an organization if you get these foundational pillars done and I can just do that quite quickly. So that that return on investment can be good if you get the right person that goes, cool, I can help you because I see it in a way that you don't, because you know, you're you're quite obviously, which is probably the way it should be, quite risk-averse to losing that data. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, you should be. But if you do it in the right way, you can use it in a different way and make things better, easier, quicker, cheaper, faster as well, rather than going, we've got this high-profile mistake that we are uh proliferating proliferating, if I can get my words out as well. Um so you know, how can an organization benefit from better governance, from better data protection practices? And that's maybe the myth out there that data protection is boring, that data protection is unhelpful, that data protection slows things down, um brakes on a car allow you to go faster. Because if you didn't have brakes on a car and you go as fast as you can, you die. And if you go as fast as you can and use your data in any way you want to make it really simple to do the job, your charity will come to an end. Guaranteed because you will lose recognition, you will lose authority, you will lose confidence, and you will lose credibility. You need those breaks. And if you get the brakes right, you move faster and quicker. And that's what a really good practitioner should be thinking, especially if they're working with a with a charity. They should see it and deliver it back to you on top of what they uh what you've been asked.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, and and I think I think that's a really that's a really good analogy about the brakes, isn't it? And I think, you know, I work a lot with um, you know, data governance practitioners and and they have the same stories of like, you know, they kind of like nickname the handbrake, you know, and the kind of one that's like the kill joy. And it's like, you know, we just try and reframe those conversations about it's an enabler, right? And it and it and it's gonna speed things up, but you you just need to be able to, it's always about perspective, isn't it? I kind of think, you know, I'm not a practitioner in these things, but I've spent loads of time over almost a decade as well, you know, talking and working with people in these areas that have, you know, extremely qualified and you know, you know, decades of experience put together. And you just think, wow, you just know your stuff. And they can go into somewhere and go, you know, almost like scan the room, you know, with some sort of like men in black glasses and kind scan it and go, oh my god, yeah, I see it, right? And they and they get that clarity and that that that ability to be able to see in a holistic way, okay, if we kind of piece these things together and knit it like this, actually it's going to be a smoother journey for the for the rest of time. And I think, yeah, I think it's about changing the language, changing the reframing the narrative. And you know, that's why I've talked about myths because you know, sometimes you just have to go, okay, you know, like forget this, this is out, time out on this, like these are our these are our assumptions that have now become a reality, and now they've just become a new fiction, a new headline that we read, and then we just absorb it, and then we just go, Oh, yeah, I've seen that so many times, it becomes true, actually. And it's like, oh, actually, it doesn't have to be like that, we can reframe that. Um, and I think I think that's the thing about misconception, and I think compliance is that you know, you just kind of want to dismantle those. And I think with your sort of tenure in this industry, you're well placed to do that. And I think you know, that's the other thing, you know, when I'm consulting with people, is like you want that safe pair of hands, you know, you want those people that have got that experience and that seniority to be able to go, it's okay, got this, right? And and and I think that's also really important. Okay, James. So, which charities are most at risk of disappearing?

SPEAKER_01 35:45

That's a really good question. I think it's the ones that um uh probably move a bit too quickly with data because of their ambition and enthusiasm because they see an idea that they can follow through. Uh whether you move faster and you break things. And the last company to have that ASOS of Move Fast and Break Things is now facing a multi-million or possibly a billion pound fine in the US because it was Meta and it was Facebook, and they're now facing the um confirmed by a court the fact that they built algorithms that would be addictive and did harm people's um social being, their own uh mental health. So, you know, move fast, break things, doesn't work in charity. However enthusiastic you are, there needs to be a real foundation in there. But what one thing that's really been on my mind is this whole di uh uh idea of at some point there will be a digital level up for all of us as individuals, where we have a technological solution, which maybe you know, we're gonna app in our phone or have we do it, where we are asking organizations to meet the technical standards that we expect our data to be used, uh technical, legal, organizational standards, and then to be able to prove it on a technical level in that communication between us owning that data or or saying you can you can have this data and use it for your purposes only if you meet these technical standards. Where's the where's that communication back and forth from the organization? Now, I think in charities, there's huge amounts of duplication, enormous amounts. I mean, if you're helping one family, one individual, they may need help from multiple charities or multiple things. And so you've got multiple silos of this data that is probably sitting on a an Azure database, an AWS database, a Google database, or something else database, uh Excel, XL, you know, an Excel spreadsheet within within one of one of those, yeah, or all of that, you know, a SQL uh database somewhere. Uh but well, why can't they share? Why can't there be one? And why can't there be one curated in a way that then means the organization, the charity, doesn't have to spend money every single time for a new uh instance of database, and so you cut out the bottom of that spend and that is almost easy. It takes a bit of money to do it, but then you would reduce the spend if you did it collaboratively and said, uh, we're going to share this database under these rules and this security mechanisms. And so if this individual needs to go to this charity, we don't need to spend the extra money to house that data, to store that data on another server somewhere else in the cloud, and then go through the extra compliance expense just because I I've been forced to have to spend money on holding this data which is duplicated in 500 different places with 500 different charities or organizations. And then you go, well, think of the the climate impact of that with these multiple places and these data centers that are popping up everywhere. So I think I think in the charitable sector there has to be a um uh probably a coming together and conglomeration of a single point of truth that is managed in a technical way that can secure that data um to to a level that they would never be able to reach, even in the systems they currently purchase, and it would still be cheaper. Yeah, and that's that's what I really want to get to with some of the work that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah, I think and I think that's that's really important, isn't it? And I think you know, kind of that four circle moment again of like, you know, which is partly why, you know, we created the the charter, because it's like if you bring people together, you put resources together, you enable people to learn together, right? And then you kind of have these ideas and you can kind of you know talk about them, you can, you know, you can kind of do back and forth, right? It's almost like a game of chess, isn't it? And you can go, okay, if I do this, what's your experience of that? And you're like, okay, we did that, and then this is what happened. You go, okay, night uh, you know, it's like, you know, D2. Okay, what happens here? Okay, well, the rook took that one. Okay, well, we don't want to do that because we want to protect, you know, it is like a it's a mind-boggling game of chess, isn't it? And it's kind of like, but but if we put people together and we put those, you know, real bright minds together and those resources and experience, and that lived vision of, you know, people just want to help, right? And they want to make other people's lives animals. You know, I worked at Busy Dog's home for many years. It's like you want to you want to enhance that experience for every living creature and human, right? And you want to make the the outcomes, you know, much more enjoyable and more prosperous for everyone. Um, and I think a lot about that technical debt, you know, and I think about you know, for the sustainability, you know, aspect as well. I think these are massive things to consider. And it's been an absolute pleasure to spend time with you, James, and we're delighted to have you in our network at Omni Digital. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your you know kind of lived experience of working in lots of different sectors. And um, yes, thank you so much for today.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Thank you so much, Lucy. Thanks for having me.