Sliding Doors: Where Creativity meets Code

 This episode is for anyone who did not follow the traditional path into technology. I sit down with Simon Hayter to explore what happens when creativity, curiosity and lived experience collide with the world of data and digital transformation. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

There are people who enter technology through the traditional route, and then there are the rest of us, the ones that arrive through maybe the slide door, carrying skills that no one expected to become essential. I'm Lucy Lynch, Chief of Staff at Omni Digital, and my path into tech started in the arts, and so is my my guest today. All about story, behaviour, language, the human operating system, the things that shape how people think, decide, and change. My guest today, Simon Hayter, comes from a BA in theology and a postgrad in economics. And I'm super excited to have him on the show today. So welcome, Simon. Please do give a little introduction about yourself and then we can get started talking all about the arts and technology.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Hi, uh cool. Thank you, Lucy, for inviting me. Yes, I'm Simon Hayter, been data analytics, digital, uh whatever you want to call it, for well over 20 years. I guess like Lucy, I've kind of got much more of a humanities artistic background. Uh, and effectively I fell into it really. It was moved to London with friends, big ban, big wide world. Um, got the first job I could find. And it's when analytics and data wasn't a cool thing, it definitely was the they're the nerds in the corner. Um, and effectively started my well in my 20s just bouncing around different analytical jobs, um, I think cell jockey. But I was fortunate enough to be like the single analyst in teams of salespeople. Um, and as as I kind of progressed my career, I'll be I'll be honest really, I guess it wasn't wasn't anything I I really wanted to do. Um but my my I guess it was the analytical thinking or the curiosity. So whichever job I was doing, I was really understanding what is the output, what are the people I'm working with wanting to get out of it. And then by understanding that, I then I guess just taught myself the technical skills and then was able to join the dots and and bridge the gap. Uh, and then had eight, seven or eight wonderful years at countrywide, um, which is now Cornwall's in in property, uh, where I was fortunate enough to do an MBA. Uh, and that's really where I started bringing data analytics um to the front end of the user experience of the business, moved on to Close Brothers Bank, uh, and then right then, kind of now gone independent. Um, the key passions for me, I suppose, with is is actually how do you use data to support whoever you're supporting, whichever organization you're supporting. So visualization is an absolute passion of mine. Anyone who's worked with me knows that, um, because raw data is just raw data, but actually the power of it is is really, really clever. And and I love working with people who kind of come from an artistic background who can transform that data into into a story, and because uh it really captures people's imagination. Uh, and and I've really loved the reaction, people who just think, well, data can't tell me anything, and then you actually do something, and then it it so so so definitely I come from the much more creative side. Um, how do you take the data, how do you visualize it, how do you use it, rather than um the more technical side, which I guess is where the majority of people started their career from.

unknown 3:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

I suppose an accidental one, and then I kind of used my creativity or um imagination. And um what's the word I'm looking for? Constant questioning, I suppose. Curiosity, that's the word I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Curiosity, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Because the curiosity is is then what kind of creates the puzzle to solve, and then then you push it out.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, and maybe that's why we we we we we kind of got along so well, or maybe we weren't, I I was never sure I was gonna get along with you because you always seem so so immensely intelligent, and I probably had a bit of like imposter central thing and oh my god, how am I gonna answer any questions that you might have? But you were always very you know warm and welcoming. So, you know, that was great. And and it was so nice to sort of like reconnect at Data Decoded last month. Um we weren't many years ago when we when we were connecting up young talent in the shape of a graduate called Wisom. I don't know, I know that you remember him. And as an example, you know, he someone that you know I know he he saw a problem and he was able to kind of like you know do a very sort of crude kind of like prototype of of a solution that he thought he could, you know, uh sort of like embellish and you know, come and work uh inside the team, which he which he did sort of like for several years. And I think you know, I've kind of I've got this uncanny knack of being able to look at people and listen to them and also like find that they've got that that curiosity, that creativity, and that they'll be able to, whatever environment they're in, they'll be able to kind of like help you know that business, you know, thrive in a way because they're able to find solutions that maybe you know other people might might not might not look into. Um, and I think you know you definitely have that that resilience and that sort of like heaps of creativity that could kind of make it into something that you know you wouldn't probably see on a on a first on a first glance. And I think that was you know when I when I when I kind of met you like many years ago. So let's think about creativity. You know, I've got my office is like full of pictures, paintings, like bits of like, you know, kind of like writing. I am an absolute like passion hungry for the arts and for working in education for many years, I was always like, forget the code, like just go to the theatre, go and you know, read books, go and actual books, and you know, kind of like immerse yourself in a different world because these skills are the ones that are going to help you in the future. And you imagine like a room full of students that are just wanting to get along and learn the latest code. I was a bit of a kind of anomaly for them, but actually, you know, fast forward 10 years later, all those things, you know, are true, and now lots of people are talking about those things. So we're living in a moment where AI can generate almost anything, right? And I guess it in my opinion, it's like it's people that will thrive are the ones that that will be able to prompt, interpret, and imagine. Um, so from your background, Simon, how do you see creativity sort of showing up as a competitive advantage?

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Cool. I mean, I think one very kind word, so I'm definitely not intelligent, so glad I give that impression.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

You are.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

I don't see you you're just a wonderful warm person. Everybody gets on with with with the UDC. Um I'd have always in um enjoyed working with you and and the conversations we have. And and I think, yeah, to the point you gave about the the curiosity is one of the things when I was kind of interviewing for people, I'd always ask how they learnt what they did. So when they would say this is what I've done and this is what I did, regardless of what kind of level it is. It's and I always was looking for the answer of, oh, I taught myself rather than oh, I learnt it on this course. It was like, there's a problem, I don't know how to solve it, so I have found a solution by myself and and and another really talented people have have been on that, or I was in this this role, I was the standalone person in this role, I had no support, therefore I taught myself. Whatever technology, because the technology is agnostic, right? Um and so I was and and I've always looked for that and always tried to, you know, and and and I've always found that those type of people are the self-learning, the curiosity is is kind of the common denominator, whichever, whichever field you're in. Um and and I think you're right. I think maybe we were an anomaly 10 years ago, but I think maybe now we're a bit of the norm, I suppose, moving forward and into the future, because with the advent of AI, I mean I think it it does some amazing things. I think there's a lot of hype about it and overhype and a bit of fear-mongering as well, and and how how and and it's interesting how there's a lot of people who think AI is gonna replace the arts and there's a threat to the arts. And I don't think it it is. It it's gonna change it. But I don't necessarily think it's a a threat to it. If anything, I think it it can actually support a lot of creative, creative people. Um and and I think now with the especially with the way that it can code itself and it's got to get the balance right because people suddenly think I like it and they can use it. But but the creativity side of it is so important because in my experience, creative people have the vision of what it needs to look like, but don't necessarily have the know-how how to how to get there.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

That's me.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

And so therefore you've needed a big team to to do that, right? This is the vision, okay. And even I'm not particularly artistic, I kind of know what good looks like, but I don't necessarily know how to physically do it. And so so you need lots and lots of different skills, but actually with the creative mindset and the way you can now prompt AI, that's because I think there's a bit of a if if anyone's got the perception that they can just go onto AI and say, hey, create me the design in one, and then the first thing that comes out, I mean the first thing that'll come out with just the garbage, right? Because AI has got to be trained. So the more you understand how the AI has previously been programmed, how the AI language kind of responds to to prompts, then actually it's the patience of going back and forth to then really kind of tweak the end and result. And I think that it's the creative people that really, really would have the edge, I think, in in that, because they know what creative looks like, they know what good looks like, they actually kind of have a real defined output in their mind. And then what if therefore what they can do is start kind of tweaking and prompting the models back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and therefore they can kind of get the the outcome. Whereas I think if you come purely from a technical point of view, well actually that's not really gonna necessarily help because you know how it's physically programmed, but then you still need that kind of creative side to get out of it. So so I definitely think there's this huge space for creativity, and and and I think, you know, dare I say it, over the last 10 years, there's been a lot of focus on everyone has to be in STEM, get everyone in STEM, move everyone in STEM. And I think that's it's gonna be a bit detrimental actually, because it's it's quite it's not very inclusive, and you know, it's quite a big thing for me is to kind of it doesn't really matter what your background is. Um whether you went to university or not doesn't matter. You know, what you study doesn't matter, what your previous experience was doesn't matter, it's actually more about what do you bring and what can you do moving forward that matters. And I think there's been a bit of a we see um job specs all the time that you must have a STEM degree, must have this, must have that, and you just don't. Um and so I think by I think actually the the advent of AI recently in the last 12 months, two years has actually now brought the two things together rather than there kind of being STEM this side, humanities that side, and never the TD me. I actually think it's now brought brought it together in a much, a much better way, um which is really exciting, I think. Uh I think it actually will I think actually AI can bring people together and not be divisive.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

I think there's a couple of things that I was just thinking that I just went off in a tangent in my head when you were talking there about one which maybe you want to explore or not, I don't know. I was just like thinking about you know artists, like so I studied, I did in my um undergrad, I did uh history of art um and uh and then you know theatre and film. Um and then I was just thinking about when I was in history of art, I was I uncovered all of this stuff about how the whole world, you know, religion, politics, wars, were all of those things that were happening in the world, which is happening in our world now, were influenced by you know, like that. That was what was the kind of the palette, if you like, for artists like you know, Picasso, uh, for example, something like that, and how they were influenced them when I was, you know, doing theatre and and I was you know doing about uh Lorca and Kafka and all this stuff, and it was just like they were so influenced about what was going on in the outside world, and I'm just curious, I think in another 10 years, what the art scene will be like because they'll have been influenced by what's going on now, but I find it I found it so fascinating because I didn't it it's almost like when I look at a paint and then you you kind of have to look at every everything else. So sociology was also really fascinating for me. I know you obviously you did theology and it and it and it opens up another world, another dimension, right? And I think as people, as humans in navigating this world, I think that's what gives it the richness, right? And and I think when we were saying about employees, uh employers looking for people, and and you saying, you know, quite rightly, shouldn't actually matter, you know, where where you came from, what background, grew up in a very you know, working class background, you know. Um, and I I remember working for uh a company and they wanted to hire someone, but they wanted to know like the results of their O-levels GTSEs and where they went to sixth form college, like it was very important. And I and for me, you know, I left school at 16, 17 and got asked to leave and then returned to education when I was 21. I found a very different pathway because I had to go out and get a job and work and support myself from a very from a teenager, so I couldn't go back to education and then do a kind of traditional group. So mine was very squiggly because that was just my life. Maybe who I am, but I'm not saying it was always great, but it but it gave me lots of other things that I probably never could have imagined, you know, the the the benefits, you know, in hindsight. So I find it, you know, from a bias perspective as well and ethics, it's very important that we we we really understand those things and we shouldn't have a blanket statement. I wonder, have you got have you got any thoughts on on those on about how we also about interviewing people as well? About you know, I know that you said about it doesn't it doesn't matter, but if you're working for a company where they have this rigorous process, how can we as human beings and we want to create our own businesses, how can we go about, you know, kind of tearing up the rule book, I guess, in in that aspect?

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Um well, I suppose from a recruitment point of view, if you always recruit the same people, you're always going to get the same output. And actually that might be fine for the the organ if if that's genuinely what you think is going to be beneficial to your organization. I think that's a bit of a risk because I think society changes all the time. I think it's flowing. I think actually I don't want to get too cheesy because it's been done to death on the diversity of thought and stuff like that, but but it's super important, right? Because the the more people come from different backgrounds, the more experience people bring to the table, the the different viewpoints that come in. And actually that's where AI becomes important because you know AI is not a magic wand. If we really break it down, AI is just a predictive model. Um, and that's all it is, it's it's predicting what comes next. And it predicts what comes next by looking at what's come previously. So if what's come previously is just a narrow viewpoint, that's what it will predict all the time.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

And that that's where the the biased model, the unbiased model becomes so important. You know, it's it's not about I don't I don't know, am I saying the right thing, whether it needs to be like the trendy thing to do, but it's the important thing to do because actually the the the more information that AI is exposed to, the better the answer's going to be. That's the whole purpose of diverse thought and different people coming with different perspectives and different people coming with those different perspectives to train the model with different data sets. Um you know, at the same book, I went I'll try I'll try not to embarrass myself on history knowledge now with your background, but they always say history is written by the victors, right? And so what you know about the past is basically what you've learned by what's been written down. And it's really interesting when new historical evidence comes up that might actually change your whole perception of what the past society might have been like, right? Because that's the thing, the the history is told by it, and it this all comes to the same the same principle.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And rewriting history, right? If you think about trying to trying to, you know, like completely decimate a whole load of stuff and go, no, we're just rewriting stuff, and it's just the future generations will only think it's that. But actually, that's not true.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

I agree. And and and to play kind of devil's advocate, I suppose, knowing what it's like on on the corporate side, it is it is hard, right? Because if if you're in a tough economy and your company might be you want to kind of grow the company or you need to protect the company, it it's risky, right? So so yes, so so so it is challenging for companies who want to recruit because it can be a risk, because you're investing money um into the hire. And and it's very easy to go down the safe, call it safe route in inverted commas. Um but I think that it it misses out the opportunity, especially now where things are so much easier to be automated, the tools are getting better and better and better that actually by bringing in different perspectives, you can actually get really, really great outcomes. Um and people who might come from a non-technical background but have got the real understanding of the industry or the client or the end user. It's so beneficial to understand what the what the output, what the output is. Um and I think that's where it's how do I say it? I I just think now that teams moving forward are gonna be much more fluid in their skill sets, if if that's the right word. Um as opposed to having teams of a single skill set. I think you're actually gonna have I mean it's started to happen kind of already, but I think it's just gonna become more and more and more the way that data and tech and digital just gets embedded in everyday working life. I I do wonder whether there'd even need to be central data teams or digital teams or stuff like that moving forward if if it just kind of in the it just becomes the the normal way of of doing things, really.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah, and and I think I think that's a very fair point, you know, to point out to say about you know about about risk, you know, business like finance. And obviously everyone, you know, if you're a business owner, you're gonna you it's gonna make good commercial sense. I guess my other point was that when I was working, you know, for that that customer, I was just like, I put myself in in those shoes of you know, and go, you would have missed out on someone like me because I didn't follow, and and I'm like, that's a great shame because I'm brilliant, you know. I agree. I know I I know I would have given so much to that company, but I wouldn't, and and I also then think this is how AI also would would displace someone like me. I agree, and and I and that's also why I want to stay in this world, even though I've I'm not that technical person, because it I have to be that voice to say, but what if, right? And and and you'll miss out if you don't consider this, and and and that's what gets me up in the morning, right? And and makes me want to carry on working in this industry, even though I often feel like I'm getting sided around because I'm not technical enough, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I I I agree, and and it's a really good point, right? With the advent of AI scanning people's CVs, who's trained that model on what to look for because you're right, it's it's again, it's the absolute bias of I don't know, and and again, I'm not close enough to know who how these models are being built, but but who did build them? Are they actually the people who are recruiting for these roles, or are they people who don't actually know what the role is? So they're just going on past CVs of oh, here's a hundred CVs of people who've done this job and they've all got it's probably that, I would say that's the last one. And therefore, probability-wise, we're only going to look for these degrees, and and I completely agree. I mean, that's yeah, here's the irony, right? It's there's a the people in this world who shout so much about not having biased models are using AI that's biased on recruitment. Yeah, it's it's it's the irony is huge, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

It's um yeah, yeah, absolutely, and you know, like you know and I know, like our our degrees were were hard, our paths were hard, it wasn't ornamental, right? You know, um, and uh and oh god, but I you know it's like blood, sweat, and tears like doing my dissertation, you know, play, and just absolutely just loving it, right? But that that feeling of accomplishment will will never go. And I definitely think, you know, AI, you know, well, for me definitely, and I think in in my you know smallish circle I think it you know we don't believe it's gonna replace creative thinking you know like like you're saying you know it's gonna amplify it and I think um I think I think that's just really important to say it's just about amplification but it's also about about about the use and the and the direction right as well so if we're thinking about if we don't think about experience um and we've like touched on before and not job titles or certifications but that lived experience that sort of like ability to walk into complex situations um and instinctively knowing where the real problem is you know is a little bit like um you know like he has such an interesting backstory that I knew that he would be able to navigate complex situations or find have a have a problem and then go okay let me like try and find a solution to this and and and do this and even I I don't know how to do this I'm gonna teach myself that overnight so I can so I can do it you know he had all the sort of guts and gusto you know like to do that and in in the next sort of like generation like where do you see that going if people don't have that natural resilience like where do you think are we going to go down a different path in our conversation now I'm just I would I was just like thinking where where would that take us in the world if people don't have that innate sense of um hasn't that always been the case?

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Some do some that don't yeah yeah if you just go back in if you go back in history I mean uh technology is technology yes it's it's it's ramped up massively but I actually think if you go and and I'm definitely going to embarrass myself so please correct me here with the art history because I'm gonna talk about how that's actually transformed. I actually think it's the people with the creative of creativity and the imagination that has done the shifts. So we talk about your history of art and so definitely correct me if I'm wrong here. But but the advent of the camera massively shifted the art. So the only way that you would have a portrait like go go back from 200 years previously artists were there to create effectively photographs. It was what how do you know what people look like that you know and so so artists were there to to paint portraits or to paint scenery. And if you look at you know just go to National Gallery right and there's no surrealism or you know it it that only started actually with the advent of so so the camera came out. So suddenly you've got all these artists oh my god the camera's going to destroy art whereas my livelihood people don't need me anymore because because the camera exists same and then then it even went into film right and then people could argue well film's gonna replace stories and lighting because people can help watch a watch a film. So so even with the advent of of that yeah yeah so so so it but it didn't what it what it actually meant was people got more creative and now if you see art post invention of camera film etc is actually really really creative so so you mentioned Picasso Savalodali when you know that they were actually painting from a new perspective that wasn't just pure real life which is what painting was beforehand. And and and I actually see you know it would be really amazing to see what comes out in 10 years' time with how people with really creative imaginations are using AI to come up with new forms of art that none of us have even thought about. And I think it's the the creativity mindset of using technology that would just start shifting tastes and different movements etc etc so so there's always been technology changing the way people work, the way people create. I just think it's you've got to embrace it right because it's it's here it's not gonna it's not going to slow down um and and I think it's the people who embrace it are the ones who are going to really I'm quite excited to see actually what people can do with it because you know all all the creative stuff that's coming out of AI is still based on learning of what is exists in the past and what exists in the past was created by humanity. So that's all AI is learning from it's not coming up with anything new. It's learning from us it's learning the bad and the ugly right exactly yeah and and and so it's just learning what we've done and and therefore it will just continue to do that and people people far more creative than me will come in and say hey I can use this tool to do this you know so if you just look at even in the entertainment I mean everything's changed in the last 10 years but it's it's the people who've been really successful at it are the ones who've really embraced it and used it to do something creative and imaginative with it. And it is fascinating to see.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

And you know like in the in the very in the very sort of beginning when we started we was talking about storytelling and you were saying about visualization and then I was thinking so one of the filmmakers that I uh studied for well like a whole year was uh Hitchcock right classic master of storytelling but I was also then thinking what you were saying about uh you know photography and video and colour and then obviously you know he he chose his his you know his I guess his framing for everything you know very very clear carefully and meticulously and you know so for films like you know Vertigo you know use the whole sort of technicolor you know landscape of of everything it had to offer but then for psycho you know like black and white you know for that that that intrigue and that suspense and I think you know it's about having having that I don't want to say wisdom but but you you've got this kind of like um effervescent sort of like I don't know oh what are they already creating and just say you're a bit like a magician right if you're if you're if you're if you're clever you're creative and you and you want to you want to push those boundaries you will be open to looking at everything the whole spectrum not being scared right and and going oh you know the kind of three monkers of here no evil see no evil right but being open and embrace it and then choosing the right thing and having the rigo to kind of understand and the depth and that knowledge to understand well this is why I chose that this is why and it's the same for machine learning and you know whatever like I remember you know working with data scientist you know really clever you know PhD you know guys that worked at the BBC and he'd be like actually we don't need to use a machine learning model because we can just use this and actually you know it's better.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

The students were a bit disappointed because they aren't and he was like but we don't need that that solution doesn't that that problem doesn't warrant that solution you know we don't we could throw all of that out but it's it's a massive waste of resource and money and from a sustainability you know you know concept of having to run that machine we don't need that we could do this and they were like oh you know it doesn't have to be all like you know lights and magic it could just be a very simple solution and I think we also forget we get so you know like hijinks by all of this kind of glory stuff isn't it that's uh that example you gave about you know you sent some data scientists in and and then they were told they couldn't use these fancy models and and they kind of got disappointed but but actually that I think that kind of strengthens my point about the creativity because you've got someone who says no the most creative way to solve this problem is doing the basics. And and and I think where a lot of AI projects data projects call them what you like can fail is actually people want to do their own kind of let's call it pet project. And it's like well you're not paid to do that. You're paid to come up with the most effective cost effective solution. Not necessarily the and that's what we mean by creative. Creative doesn't mean this is the most creative and therefore it's the most expensive. The most creative is what's the best solution for that problem at that specific time. Because if one solution looks amazing but it costs a million pounds and one solution looks okay and it costs 20 pounds and the the the the absolute problem is to save money well then that's the creative way is the 20 pound solution right so and and I think that's that's a really good example and I'm really hoping that they learnt something from that because rather than being disappointed because they're not there to do what this isn't school right you're not there to do your own pet project and your own this is what I'm interested in your your volcano eruption. You've come in to solve a problem yeah yeah you've come in to solve a problem and therefore what's the creative and and and the true creative and the true the the cre the real successful person is the one that says this is the simple this then you often find the simplest way is the best way and and the most creative way. And actually it's it's the people who can step back and solve something really simply actually involves quite a lot of creativity rather than this huge elongated process and complication that the next person comes along and has got no idea how it works and the start it it it it it takes quite a lot of um intelligence actually to simplify something right down to to the bare basics and come up with a really straightforward solution.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I'm just thinking then do you do you think also some of that is is about ego? Yes and okay and sort of groundstanding and you know whatever because we're not grandstanding.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Or expectation I think I think maybe maybe expectation or I don't want to say the word entitlement that's not that's not what I mean but I think it's well I've done this I've I know how to do this therefore I want to use it.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Well fine set it with your own company buddy you know that's that's not what you're here for right it's it's it it's a bit like you're an amazing artist you're hired by Pixar to do something well then you have to do it the way that the that follows a Pixar right you can't come in with a Picasso style thing is it's yeah yeah exactly so so so yeah maybe you're right maybe ego is the right word I think I think you're right yeah I I agree and and I wonder also if there's like uh you know thinking about the ego thing but also think about the role of a CDO or you know a kind of uh data scientist and in the working world as well that there must be some part of you need to justify like your position right also when things get tight you know from a from a budget perspective everything will be looked at but I think you know we were talking a while ago about your your icky guy about your reason for being about finding your your strengths and stuff like that and I think you know um often like so you know our you know CEO Matt Small he's really good at being able to simplify things and I like Simple and like break everything down into really just you know bite-sized pieces and I'm like oh I get that okay great and and I think you know that that's also something to really celebrate you know the simplicity and I think the other thing I was thinking I've been thinking about you know that everything's so quick right you know you can go on to any kind of like AI of of your choice you know put in a question and it can help you and save you time and effective and give you answers that you think okay great do I trust that is that is that right okay great that'll free up some other time so we can do all the stuff I really enjoy and now I've got more time to do that. Brilliant but one of the things that I was thinking was that you know we were so used to things happening really quickly like getting the answers we're also human beings probably expected to come up with an answer super super quick like you know like like a co-pilot good or Gemini and and I'm always like setting the expectation like I'm not Gemini Gemini is not my middle name I'm not gonna come up with solution like as quick as as they can you know but what what whether my point is is that do we lose the enjoyment of finding a of watching the whole process it's a bit like oh maybe I'm going down a tangent but thinking of things that are really joyful to do like I don't know um fixing something like with my dad was a mechanic right so if if I had something that was broken like a watch or I don't know a toy or my bike or whatever he would be able to fix it like literally you could throw anything at him he'd be take it into his workshop you know like six hours later come back and it's like fixed right and this whole thing about recycling stuff and fixing things he was very adept at doing and I and I think those skills are very important for the future because also I think as human beings we need to have that that uh you know like my kids will not remember or know what a VCR is right or having to you know wait for top of the pops on a on a Sunday night to press the record button to get that song you know at that time they're not going to know about that they just ask for it on Alexa and then it just you know appears. They understand about waiting and patience and stuff like that. But I do think that's a skill that that helps us with our creativity as well about being able to find a way to find a find a problem as resilience really right meaning to wait for stuff wait for seven days to to get like to know who's number one on top of the pops.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Maybe but then if I said to you your parents would say oh you're so lucky you could record top of the pops with my day we didn't even have top of the pops we were lucky to have a radio and understand it right so so so so from that point of view you had it super easy and I I had it lucky I was lucky yeah and and so so I and and no doubt in when our kids have kids they'll be saying oh my god I only had TikTok or I only had Snapchat now you can do X, Y, and Z. So but but I think you're what to the point of there's a problem I need to fix it is where you get the creative it's the only way you get creativity. I was fortunate enough I went to this um well I did my MBA at Cranfield but I went back to Cranfield and there was this kind of strategy lecture and they they showed really fascinating graph um and they didn't say what it was but basically the till till I'll tell you what it was but basically they're it's gonna be really stupid with my finger but but the graph would go up then it would go down a little bit then it would go up then it would go down a little bit then it would go up then it would go down a little bit then it would go up and it just did that of the whole graph would basically go up then it would dip then it would go back up and dip. But back kind of all the way all the way up. And they were kind of asking what do you think this is and nobody could guess. And what they said was well it's the lap time of a the Monaco Grand Prix or something like that of every year. And and and it would be interesting to say why do you think it dipped down and the reason it dipped down was when health and safety made the car slight well basically they put stuff in the car to protect the driver which in effect made the car slightly slower. Or they would try to restrict it to make it fairer because different cars were just raised so so what what what they would do is they would be forced to make adjustments to the car for health and safety or for try and tighten it up. And as a result the next year the the car was slightly slower. But they didn't want the car to be slower. So therefore they came up with new designs to make the car faster the next time include but still having all of these new rules and regulations built in. But it's only because they were forced to come up with that idea that made the car continually get faster. So it's only when obstacles are put in your way that causes the creativity that causes the new ideas.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Otherwise why would you you'd have no motivation to do it.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

And I suppose maybe to support your argument about if everyone if all of your problems are being solved the kind of problem you have is that you don't have problems which would take us down a whole no new podcast. But I think that's that I think is probably the biggest challenge maybe that future generations are going to have is what problems are you going to solve if all your problems if your life's kind of too easy that ironically then makes your life tough because you're you've got nothing to focus on.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah and and I think you know experience you know that experience that you know I've been through that you've been through you know it gives you judgment right it you know I feel like I've got superpowers in being able to you know f see in people other stuff and it and it gives you clarity and I and I know fundamentally what feels off right and what feels right and you know where I should put my energy because I've got copious amounts of it different types of of life experience and I think I do think that's what you know organisations are desperate for you know for the future they want that clarity and AI can generate options right give you option you know a b or c and you go back which one which option do you want to go down you know and you just give it you know I'll go for B right but human beings you know we decide what matters like right now. And I think that was the other thing that I was thinking just to kind of finish off uh because we're we're out of time now is that is about that um I think I think we want to feel like we've we've gone from A to B, that we've been on a journey that we've we've gone down a road and we've we've kind of come to a conclusion because I think as human beings like you want to feel like you've accomplished something right I I mean I definitely do and I know I'm trying to instill that in my kids that about that you you want to feel like it doesn't have to be hard hard hard but you know you have to go through some adversity like things can't just be simple like you have to be able to deal with some curveballs and challenges um and and I think I don't know for the future I think that's also what what human beings crave for maybe that's why people do you know survival training and all these kind of like Iron Man like things and they do this stuff where your personal endurance because I think we're we're getting less of that in our actual lives and that we're have you got thoughts on that no I I I I think no I think I think I think you're right.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

I mean I think it's it's definitely it's become much more popular the the fitness culture in the last 10 definitely five but maybe 10 years. But also I think because what do you do with your spare time I suppose and it sounds a bit flippant um but even now thinking about presents you give people is because everything's digital you can't it's actually hard to buy you actually buy experiences. So you know if you think about what you do now to as a gift actually you want to do an experience you almost want to escape the digital world and do something yeah separate. And and maybe we'll see that pendulum swing where people rejecting it. I mean you look at you know speak to your kids but they're not on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

No they're not they don't even have phones. You don't even have phones. I'm such a mean mum I like the world just so you know that's for it's for old people.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

So it'd be interesting to see you beginning to see the vinyl right vinyls come back for no reason apart from it's almost a rebellion against digital music.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

That's why vinyls come it's almost like the the the the shifts coming vinyl used to be modern right so it used to be the new thing then tape you know CDs came in and then digital music and it's going back to you you do wonder whether people are saying that they want vinyl because they want to be able to listen they're forcing themselves to listen to a whole album and not just cut out like the the the songs that they know the most or that the one you know they've they've almost like forcing themselves to listen to the whole album to get this whole complete experience you know that these things are returning a really odd sort of thing I I think it's quite fascinating and I love human nature you know and I you know when you talk about the gift thing um you know I I make a make a cake or I'm at small comments visit me and I'm like you know got everything you could need and I'm like I'll make you some biscuits and you can take them back on the train and it's like oh it's such a thing you know I'll I'll make something or I'll or or do a drawing or I give that to someone or I'll knit some booties but I'll have knitted them, you know, myself, you know, rather than buy something. Those things I think are important.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

No, I agree. I mean it it's interesting actually the the rise that I've seen on social media, TikTok, etc., is how many people are becoming popular showing how to, I don't know, knit, how to make something out of wood, how to do all of those kind of things that we were almost forced to learn when we were kids at school and found it really boring is now kind of coming. It's good. Yeah. So so I don't know, maybe the whole digital world will be rebelled against and it will go back to what it was like in the 80s. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So um I think we are out of time there. So it's been a really really interesting conversation. So you know we've got two different paths there, two different different disciplines, but I think you know we've got this belief about creativity, curiosity and lived experience are the real engines of progress, you know, in today's world. So for anyone listening out there who didn't come from a traditional tech background, don't worry. Let this be a your reminder your path is not a disadvantage it's an advantage. It's the way that you think the way that you see the world and the way that you connect ideas is exactly what this what this world needs. So for everyone listening so stay curious and creative and keep rewriting your own playbook. So thank you so much today uh Simon it's been wonderful to uh spend some time with you and I look forward to um catching up with you really soon. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Thank you Lacy thank you for the invite always a pleasure to speak with you speak soon.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Thank you thanks to you