The Leadership Gap No One Is Talking About: Neurodiversity, AI, and the Human Element with Brian Schwartz

In this episode, we explore something most leadership conversations miss.

Not just strategy.
Not just performance.
But the human dynamics underneath it all.

I’m joined by Brian Schwartz—coach, mediator, and leadership consultant—as we unpack what actually happens when high-performing individuals step into leadership roles… and why so many struggle in ways they didn’t expect.

We talk about:

The difference between executive leadership and executive functioning
Why neurodiverse thinkers often rise quickly—but face hidden friction
How visionaries and operators misalign inside organizations
Why AI won’t replace the need for human-centered leadership
And what it really means to build teams that feel valued, heard, and effective

This is a conversation about what’s actually driving performance right now—and what leaders need to understand if they want to move forward without losing their teams.

Because the truth is:

You don’t lose people because of the work.
You lose them because they stop feeling seen.

If you’ve ever felt like you’re capable of more but something isn’t clicking…
If you’ve struggled to lead others—or even yourself—through complexity and change…
Or if you’re trying to build something meaningful without losing the human side of it…

This episode is for you.

To connect with Brian Schwartz directly:
Email: Brian@brianschwartz.org
Website: brianschwartz.org
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandanielschwartz/
Instagram: Instagram.com/brian_schwartz_coaching 

Follow Beyond the Mind on Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm so excited to have you here on Beyond the Mind studio podcast. I'm going to have you introduce yourself. But I I got to say, I'm so excited for this conversation because you and I met at the Neurodiversion Conference last month in Austin. And I think within 10 minutes, we had like three different conversations that I wanted to dive into further. So I was like, will you just please come on the podcast and we can dive into it here? So I'd love, Brian, if you could just give us give uh an introduction of yourself and what you do and kind of what had brought you to that neurodiversion conference.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I'm Brian Schwartz. I wear a lot of hats in my business. My business is called BSCC, which stands for Brian Schwartz Coaching and Consulting. And I first probably a coach. So I've been coaching since 2009, professional coaching, which involves both life coaching and coaching, you know, executives at work and managers. And then I also am a mediator.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I don't know if we talked about that, but no, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Certified mediator.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah. So for what types of situations?

SPEAKER_00 1:13

It's mostly the ones things that I've mostly done are office disputes, like labor conflicts between employees or manager employee. And then I started out actually, so I did the Harvard mediation program at Harvard Law School as a community member and was doing conflicts in small claims court. So that could be a lot of different things, like landlord tenant, or you know, between businesses and customers, contractors, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Oh, cool. I know exactly what you're talking about because I had to file a claim against a small business and uh the mediator is like working between the two of us.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So so it's really cool. So you're like embedded in the legal system from the mediation point to try to get it resolved before things go to court.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Right. It's the the genre or the what have you, it's called ADR, which is alternative dispute resolution.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

So it's the alternative to the trial, right? Yeah. Like trying to do that. And arbitration is another space within that. But in that, you know, the parties have less power.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah. So I think I'm going to have you back on the podcast just to talk about that in particular, because uh a lot of like our focus with Beyond the Mind Studio is in legal advocacy work. And, you know, it's funny that as just an ordinary citizen, like to come into the legal system, like I first had to learn, like, oh, mediation's even an option to avoid a trial. And and that gets to be my decision. And I remember the first time hearing that being like, What? Like, why is it my decision? Or why don't you like it? You just like the whole system is so confusing to try to understand why you're in it. So thank you for sharing that. That's gonna be a part two, I guess, with Brian Schwartz.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

So that's too. So what I probably says on my LinkedIn is I'm coach, I'm mediator, I'm a trainer. I do a lot of like leadership training, and then facilitator, which is kind of similar, but I love like a group setting that's really dynamic and sort of my impromptu skills of helping people talk to each other. So those are like the primary four hats that I wear professionally.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Well, and then you also have a sub stack.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I do, yeah. So for my for my work life, ironically, it's called Life Work. I have a mailing list.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

So if you go to mailing list at Brian Schwartz.org, you can get my life work mailing list. But then I have a movie substack called Movie Brain. And this dovetails a little bit to the neurodiverse side because for whatever reason, for me, movies, especially going to the movie theater, but in general, have been like my happy place in which my you know monkey mind brain just kind of like slows down to what feels like the right speed, and I can just be entirely enveloped in movies. And I studied, you know, film as an undergrad and loved that world.

unknown 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So I've been writing about it for really just four or five months now, but tying, you know, the movie world into the real world.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Oh, that's so cool. You know, it was one of these things that I was like, I would I'd love to pick your brain about movies. We're gonna get into more of like your professional stuff. I know we're at the meat of this conversation. Yeah. But one of the things that that struck me is well, you had asked when we started chatting, do I like movies? And I had just done, I think the week before, content uh related to some social threads that I know I was giving advice on in my ADHD community. And some of it's like, hey, my family members get really frustrated when they're trying to watch a movie with me, and I can't sit still and I can't focus. And I responded to that because I was like, oh, I get it. That's uh like a lot of us really struggle uh with sitting down to watch TV or a movie if it's not like the one that's direct with our choosing, because the our internal hyper activity is like is at play and we're like forced to sit still almost in a classroom. So I was telling you, like, actually, I don't I really don't like movies, like going to the movie theater. To me, it feels like if it's not a good movie, if my mind's jumping over the place, like it feels very restrictive.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I actually like find it a little bit suffocating, you know, unless it's like like I have to know it's gonna be a good movie that will like absorb me into the film, you know, for me to be able to sit through the theater. And uh like a lot of ADHD folks have this problem, but as you and I know, like when you've met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD. So like your experience and my experience in this field are like radically different.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

So you started getting into movies, I'm guessing before you were even diagnosed and knew that you had this crazy monkey mind. Could could you tell me a little bit about like what it was like, I guess, growing up undiagnosed and learning what like worked for you and how to like work with your focus? It kind of seems like you almost figured that movies was a good outlet to help settle your mind.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think probably it was an adaptation I didn't even know I was making, you know. I was just like, oh, I love movies. You know, at that point it was a distraction from my rest of my life, both my sort of maybe chaotic brain. I also watched a lot of TV growing up, which who knows how much how in what ways that affected my ADHD. But yeah, I think it it was like a break from everything else that I felt like I had to do. And my parents were divorced, so I was always going back and forth, but it was a fun thing for me to do with my mom on the weekends, and you know, I my diagnosis is primarily inattentive type. So it manifests in different ways. A lot of times it doesn't really manifest interpersonally, and a lot of people I know are like, I don't think you have ADHD, or you have ADHD? That's a surprise. Somebody even said that to me last night. I was at a play, and uh one of my friends was like, huh, I didn't I didn't think you were neurodiverse, and so I was like explaining it because I'm less on the hyperactive side most of the time, and more on the like like reading can be really hard for me because it requires another level of concentration from movies.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

The focus on that, and that's a big part of why uh you know, I I learned that some medication helped, and after I got my diagnosis, because I could read better after that, always adapted around that, yeah. But but that totally makes sense to me what you're saying. I have some friends, I have a friend I'm actually trying to get into the movies more who he and his wife are usually on their phones when they're watching stuff at home, to the degree to which they don't even like watch things with subtitles because they don't want to be paying that much attention.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

And I do have a little trouble watching things at home because of the option to pause to take a break. My dog's nearby, you know. I could go get food from the kitchen. I I much prefer to actually go to a movie theater because there's something about that, like the darkness, the confined space that even though it's restrictive, it's almost like a safe kind of happy space for me. That said, what you said about choosing, it's very rare I go to something where I didn't choose the movie.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

So there's probably a control factor there too.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah. I I'm curious, I'm curious, and I'll tell you why after you answer the question, but when you've been when you were going to the movies and you were finding yourself calming down, do you do you remember like was there something you were super focused on in the movie? Like, were were you watching like of how did they like were you kind of analyzing it or were you really just like watching it? You know?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, it you know, I thought I'd at various times I was like, well, maybe I should really be in this mormar to get my PhD in film studies and try to teach or something. But you know, part of the magic of the movies is the suspension of disbelief, and I just really love stories.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Um, my mom is actually a professional storyteller. She was an English teacher and left to be a professional storyteller in the 80s so or early 90s. So it's it's quite a journey, yeah. But I really grew up with that, and I love like the thread, I love plot. Like I will read the occasional novel. Well, mostly now I listen to books rather than read them, but uh and I appreciate description, you know, but I what I really love is plot, like a compelling plot with characters who are really developed. And you know, I love excitement and I love drama. So I think that's what really pulls me in. And I like stories typically that tend to be realistic. Okay, not like, you know, sometimes I like I love Harry Potter, but I love Harry Potter because we're in his neurotic mind, yeah, not because he's like in a magical world, you know?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, that makes sense. Oh, I love that. Yep. So the reason I was asking was because I've I've noticed it's been I've just now started to enjoy like watching more variety of like movies and shows, but I was like, I was quite resistant. I ended up having to watch like a lot of TV in the last uh year and a half, two years because my daughter was ill and it was like a lot of time at home and resting. She wanted to be nearby. And so the natural thing to do when we couldn't go out was we spent a lot of time watching TV shows and movies. And I know, like I would I would struggle with that because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm trying to be a good mom for her, like and sit here, but I cannot sit here, you know. And then it's like, you know, all the different facets of yourself, and you're like, I want to be mindful, so I don't want to be on my computer while I'm doing it because I'm trying to be, you know, like it's so hard to work with. But what I what I found was I'd read during that period this book called Emotional Intelligence 2.0, and it said that one way that you could build uh like your EQ skills was just to like watch the different emotions of characters, you know, on shows and TV shows, like really like paying attention to how the actors are like trying to get out something in the body language or like how they're even like shifting their characters to be more complex. And that like just having that little focus of, oh, that's what I'm watching. I mean that's what I'm gonna focus on. So it's like I can still enjoy the movie and the show, but that like actually gave my brain a focal point. Made it like fun and like learning and observational. It could like be there, but yeah, it was interesting because actually there's a lot of times where I'm like, I kind of missed the whole plot of what happened because it was just zoned in on the character, you know, but it's okay because when you're like having a conversation with somebody else around that shared experience, you both just saw it from different angles. And I just found like it's just like a healthier way for me to engage without it. I don't, I don't know, something about like you have to watch there, but you can't you can't like crochet or you can't do paperwork with your hands, or you can't it kind of brought out that stress of like the school child that's like, no, my body needs to move and I'm like forced to sit here, you know, like yes, sure. Agonizing.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah, yeah. That's interesting about the the emotional intelligence. I actually do a fair amount of training with the the EQI 2.0, so the emotional intelligence, like 360 and wow assessment. And yeah, I really like it, especially like you're saying, the way it sort of breaks down different aspects of people. Is there any, but I'm curious as a fan, is there any show or character that really drew you in or made it more captivating or more relaxing for you? You know?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, yeah. So right now I'm I'm just watching uh it's the duck, it's a the film Molly Bloom, and I actually just did a couple like content things about her.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I'll send it to you, but she's she's like uh high achieving woman who runs this poker ring. And I was like, Oh, I kind of wanted to learn a little bit more about Molly's game. Oh, Molly's game, yes, that's it. Yeah, watching her, but you know, my son introduced me to so I've been watching that and I'm kind of like focused on her, but I'm kind of enjoying like uh because I want to learn poker, so kind of enjoying like getting a glimpse of that realm of how she's looking at it, I guess. The game. And that's helpful, but you know, my son introduced me to the show that he's been watching, which is that oh my gosh, there we could probably have like five different conversations on this show. I'm wondering if you've heard of it. It's called the Amazing Circus. It's an animated show.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Animated, okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Very small, I think, production company that does it because their releases come out like every few weeks.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Amazing circus. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

But it's really timely for this time because it's basically about like an AI that takes over. Uh and what I've really loved about it, he and I watched the he said he said there were like other uh other creators who made like a conspiracy theory around the show, you know. So we watched the conspiracy theory around it, and I found when I watched the conspiracy theory, it was like so much more engaging for me to watch the show now because that conspiracy just theory described how like there's a character on there who's like very, very much supposed to be a morally bad, morally bad person, you know, and to like how they show that. And so it's been like real, like it's been super awesome from both thinking about like, wow, this is so true about what happens when AI takes over and it starts telling us to do this. So it's mind-blowing from like that realm. But as a parent, it's also mind-blowing because I'm like, wow, this is such a great conversation, like entryway to my child about, yeah, this is true. Like, look at how this character, I think his name is Jax. They talk about like, hey, when when your friend is scared of something, like what would you normally do? And you're like, okay, you understand that person's like fearful of it. Yeah, there's another character who's like super fearful of I think it was caterpillars. And then so instead, what Jax does is he fills her room with caterpillars, so as soon as she walks in, you know, and so it's like calling out how he uses her fears against her. And I'm like, wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

And are these like teenagers or how old are the characters, do you know?

SPEAKER_01 16:15

Well, they're all animated. But they have like a childlike, they have like a childlike demeanor about them, but the jokes are like adult-like but kid safe. So it's basically really like I mean, I wanna I wanna research this show more because it seems really thought out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

And how old is your son?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

He's 12. I mean, he's like in some of that context, like he likes watching movies and YouTube things, and like he's watched the conspiracy theory stuff of it. So he's he's like voracious about learning those aspects of it and like why the show some context behind the history of like the producers in the show. So he's kind of interested in I would say the creation elements of it maybe more advanced than other 12-year-olds at this age, but I don't know. Yeah, cool. But yeah, it's it's really cool. And uh I'll send you the link of that because the the next thing I know we were gonna talk about is some of the challenges that can come up in or like gosh, in so many of your environments, like I can see how your mediation skills serve for the executive coaching that you do. One, yeah, and I guess I want to dive into that because you work with a lot of executives that are looking to really advance. Uh, and I know you've called out that uh from your experience, that's when you started noticing, wow, these are like executives that are trying to really move themselves and their organizations forward, but you could really see the difference between what an executive needed in I don't know how to call it, general coaching versus like very specific executive function uh weaknesses that they themselves needed to work on within themselves. And I'm one, I I'm wondering if you could talk us through this because the two words sound so same similar, right? You're like executive coach, executive function coach, but it's so different.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, it's interesting to try to like think about, I mean, think about the word meaning, right? Like if you're an executive at a company, right, you are like a chief executive officer, right? You're the one charged with executing the plans, right? But there's also, you know, there's also this totally different meaning of execute, yeah, which is like very violent and oh, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Okay, yeah, I didn't even go to that one, but tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Dominant, like, well, I think there's something around like it's it's about power, right? And when we're talking about executive functioning, it's like your power to control what you're doing with your life, your working memory and decision making and reflection on that decision making, right? So I I think there's sort of a relation. Obviously, it's a coincidence that there's executives and executive functioning, but really like we think we're I think typically we think we're privileging people with the best executive function to be executives, right? Because they're they can make all the decisions and things like that. I don't think that's always the case. I think that people with neurodiversity, right? Like people who have the ability to hyperfocus, or you know, people who can juggle a lot of different things at one time compared to others, who yeah, just get sometimes get a ton done, sometimes seem distracted, other times can really get a lot more done than other people. They're often like promoted in certain instances, right? Like because of that, you know, there's this whole like I feel like American culture, this might be a little radical, but it's like based on this idea of being exceptional, right? There's this whole myth of American exceptionalism, rugged individualism, that we're a meritocracy, but really we're privileging people who are like supposedly much better than others, you know. The problem with that is like you can't relate to those people. So like they'll get they'll be these visionaries, and then everyone's like, well, how are we going to implement this thing that nobody knows how to do? And so then like you have this whole mix of people with different neurodiversities, whether like they fall under that definition or not, yeah, like we've talked about before. And so I think with executive functioning, like the the point I really want to get across is that if you have people, whether they're diagnosed or not, but have symptoms around neurodiversity, accommodating quote unquote to those symptoms help you, right? Those people have special talents that some other folks on your team don't have. And so the more you like support them in what those are, rather than, you know, if somebody has a messy desk, but you know they're getting a lot of work done, well, what's that about? Like, what how can you be curious about that? Yeah, see what their system is. Or like one of the things I love in the ADHD world that I knew was true for myself, but I discovered in discourse more recently, they talked about it at the neurodiversion conference, was people with ADHD at least can anticipate problems better than most other people. So they see the potholes, they see what's coming. And any executive or leader wants to know that, they want to be a little aware. Those things and tackle them. So the more you lean into that, I think the better off you are.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah. You know, you said something about executive function that was like a unique push, but I've heard I've heard uh the model that okay, your executive function is kind of like your brain's butler. You know, it's the it's the one that remembers that you have to grab a jacket and remembers that you have to, you know, let's say in an executive thing, like remember that you need to make your team aware of something else that's happening. But you really talked about, like I really like the way you framed it. You were like, it's the part that actually helps you execute. And I think what's missing in that Butler analogy that you called out is you're talking about the decision making and the like like kind of like being able to discern between between that and then like move take forward action.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I think a lot of people don't know that that uh a lot of people with like let's say something like ADHD are are great leaders and actually phenomenal entrepreneurs.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

But the the way that the executive functions are limited, it really keeps uh people from reaching leadership levels in organizations because the criteria to like level up kind of frequently fall below that bar because of some of these weakness points, right? So for somebody to have like made it to an executive level with weaknesses in their like execution skills, like I can see the natural path that they would like find their way to you because they're like I'm struggling, I'm struggling, but I don't know where it is.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah. Uh so I guess with that in line in mind that like an exec like it's somebody who's used to being high performing and is struggling, how do you approach even starting a conversation like that? Because you you do life coaching and executive coaching, which to me signals then they it's focused very much on like you in your business, you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Yeah, well, an interesting thing about this that two things. One is a lot of people, especially if they're initial managers, middle managers, they get promoted for being like good at a task, not for being a good manager.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

So they often don't even have that many management skills of people. So there's a huge opportunity there for people to give training. And I love it when organizations invest in that because a lot of them only want to invest in the C-suite. And it's almost like, I mean, this is my bias, but it's almost like trickle down economics. Like that doesn't work. You have to have some people in the middle who you really invest in. But what was the other thing you were saying about executive functioning?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, you I yeah, I was I think there's there's people are like obviously addressing some of their limitations enough to get there.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, so the the second thing I was gonna say is you need help. Like those people who've gotten way up, they've probably had a like the best assistance ever. They've they've had people they could delegate to who are really skilled, yeah. Right. And so, because if they're trying to figure out like paychecks or logistics or you know, laws they have to follow, what have you, that's gonna be a struggle. But if they can delegate all of that to people who are like highly competent at that, then they will succeed because they tend to be visionary, they tend to anticipate problems, right? So that's that's one big thing. The other thing I think is it's a lot of translation, right? Like a lot of management is translating what needs to be done and why it matters. And we all we all work with adults, right? Like for the most part, we're not, we don't have employees who are teenagers or in their single digits. And adults need rationale, like they can pretend they don't, but I think the average adult, and there's a lot about adult learning styles with this, you need some reasoning to do something, not just a paycheck, right? And sometimes leaders are like, well, you do this because this is what we're doing, right? And even if someone is willing to do that, and I think that's like you know, an older model of the workplace, right? Like it was more accepted in the past. You do this because I'm the boss and you have to do it, and it'll get done. And people are like, Well, I'm getting a paycheck, so okay, that's gone away to a large degree. And so now people need a reason. Yeah, and I think a lot of executives are not great at providing the reason internally. Sometimes they're great at it externally, yeah, and then you see these organizations fall apart because there's no good in internal management. I think that's a real crisis that's happening generally, and so you know, and then that overlaps with neurodiversity because as every day passes, more and more people are diagnosed with some neurodiversity, or they discover that they have some dynamics around that. And you know, I think there's a big discussion about why that is, and I I'm not even delving into that. I'm just like helping people who have it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Well, it takes a like I know from my own work with working with uh professional coaches, you know, in my in my career. Yeah, that what you're doing with well, I'm just I just know that what it takes for you to coach them, you you end up needing to understand a lot about the person and see where are the gaps. Is it like skill, is it mindset, is it like what needs to tweak in order for them to make progress?

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

And we know, like with with different minds, like sometimes it can be that, like you said, there's a visionary and they're not really next necessarily thinking about like, okay, this other person is struggling with how to execute on my vision. And it takes a lot to bring like a visionary and somebody who's like more operational and tactical, but can actually like like an edge, like I would say if you put a visionary and an engineer in a room together, yeah, there's gonna be like communication challenges because one's like super high level, and one wants to get into the tactical specifics of like how to get somebody something done. And that's where you usually bring in like a layer of like middle management in, right? You know, and I was part of that, like as a product manager, like go translate, you know, find the common ground to get things to move forward. It takes a lot of uh being able to work with people and understand uh, I guess, how to move things forward. And so I know you you have this gosh, like now I understand like beautiful view already from like understanding leadership and neurodiversities, but also probably from mediation, because you see a lot of environments where it's blame back and forth. And I want I would love to hear a little bit more about like where do you see the opportunity like right now for organizations to improve? Because as AI comes in, that need for like better engagement with the people that you work with, I think is going to be even like the human element is gonna be even more critical if you want to keep a team, right? If you want to keep an organization, because there's more options out there. People can go build their own product themselves now. So I guess so-mittens a door for a lot of people to leave companies and look for other options if you know they can make it lucrative. So I'd love for I'd love if we could talk a little bit about like where do you see you you said something when we were setting up about how the neurodiversion conference is like so far ahead in terms of the understanding that we all have these different that make us, and so many of them are on a spectrum. So we can't really like work with people and try to put them in boxes and say this person has ADHD, so they need to work like this, or we'll get this person an assistant and they'll just do better. Like, so where do you see like the the opportunity for organizations and where they are now to like have their leaders be better informed of their own limitations, but also like to bring the human element and work better with teams because it's yeah, I have my own views of like how critical that's going to be moving forward, but I'd love to hear your perspective.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah, I mean, I think we're at a very sort of transitional space with AI and it can kind of go in a lot of different directions. And I I don't even know that I'm a prognosticator with that. I mean, it's like here, and uh I'm not convinced that AI will like take over and and take away everyone's job, but I'm also not convinced that like it'll fail and struggle and go away. I think it's like uh an ongoing thing. And the more I work with it myself and the more I've like, I'm in some you know, groups with other entrepreneurs who are diving into all the different types of AI and how does it work, and like you said, trying to make their own business with it. What I find is like in businesses, you need the combo, you need the an AI that will like help with some efficiencies, right? Get get you information you need quickly, get processes done quickly. But then you need the people who can basically find the mistakes in the AI. And I'm not convinced those mistakes are going away. Yeah, like there might be some improvements in terms of like how things are used or you know, their seemingly like humanness or intelligence, but it's almost like we've created a new problem, right? Because like if if a human writes an email, right, or or does a project and there's little mistakes in it, somebody notices, right? If they're consequential.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

If an AI does that, there's unfortunately a little bit of an assumption, I think, that they're doing it well. And often that's not the case. Then you need somebody to go in and correct the AI, right? Yeah. Whereas if you had a human process, it would be slower, significantly slower. But you know, there'd be more creativity, there'd be more sort of um incisiveness and analysis. I keep sort of testing some AIs and they keep failing. Yeah, but it's not going away anywhere, right? Like it's people are always interested in innovation. So I think you know, folks who can help AIs work better for companies will succeed. And and I especially think the skills that people with neurodiversities have, whether it's hyper focus, whether it's like looking at a bunch of different tools at the same time and absorbing things, you know, whether it's having sort of unique insights that neurotypical people don't have, yeah, are valuable, like in this new sort of experimental space. And I I would caution executives generally about over relying on AI. Like I keep hearing this report by this one, I can't remember her name, but an economist from Navy Federal Credit Union who is saying that, like, well, hiring, you know, is doing okay, but it would be doing a lot better, except a lot of companies are just spending a lot of money on AI. They're not like firing people and replacing them with AI, they're just potentially wasting a lot of money researching AI.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

So that's why they're not hiring people because they're spending money on that. And I would caution executives about doing that, you know, and like you're saying, potentially losing valuable talent or alienating valuable talent. Like people, it takes a while for people to leave in some spaces, and that's a process of feeling undervalued for sometimes months or years. And unless you, you know, stop that process, that's happening without you even knowing it. I come across a lot of employers who are like, wow, we had this kind of exodus of people, and I'm not sure why. We're like, we think we're paying them well, and yeah, you know, and it's just because they felt undervalued in other ways and nobody was paying attention.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah. Well, there was something about the being undervalued that you had touched on in one of our previous conversations, and it's not, I guess, not just understand, but for a lot of people who are just wired differently than whatever typical is in their environment, we we want that, right? Because that's where the creativity and the innovation comes from. But with when we see people do things that we don't think are right or normal or the the way to do things, the way we would do things, as humans, we tend to judge and criticize, right? Unless we're like like really actively doing that work, which is hard to do, it's it's consuming. We have to do it because it's important. But a lot of times we we just miss it or we don't know. So differences in environments do get treated as wrong. It gets treated as like character traits, or we talked about uh something like ADHD, where people are like, oh, if you have hyperfocus, I know in other contexts uh there's some memes about well, just turn your hyperfocus on and go work on that project. And you're like, no, no, no, that's not how hyper focus works, you know? Like, so a lot of yeah, what we can do in our limitations, it's it's hard for us to even like self-advocate for in it's like there's so much time spent to the educating that we can't get to the benefit of it. How do you how do you like help organizations work with that, you know, so that their teams can function better?

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it's one of those things uh that takes time. It doesn't happen overnight, it takes a real investment in terms of like leaders who want to help their whole organization. It it takes valuing people, right? And what they're bringing to the table. You know, the irony, there's a lot of marketing around coaches that I, you know, I'm it's great to have an expertise. Like you're an executive function coach or you're a life coach or you're a leadership and management coach. But with most people I coach, like in a work setting, we start out with work and then we move to life outside work. Yeah. Because that's like hugely influencing their work life. Right. And people who I start with life coaching, like we look at aspects of their life and we end up in the workplace because there's things happening in their work that like are really affecting the rest of their life. So to me, the skills are the same, right? Like looking at that big picture. And I think in workplaces, obviously, you can't be a therapist. Obviously, there need to be boundaries around, like people share. But I do think, you know, inviting the whole person and what's going on with them and building relationships uh really matters, especially if you're like frustrated with an employee.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Like what is going on with them? Like you need to find out, and often it's something outside of work. So, you know, just being open to that and having those conversations. I can't tell you how many times I'll like lead a team building thing and I'll ask somebody like, oh, what their favorite thing they did is in the last week. And they'll mention some hobby or some trip, and everybody else is like, I didn't know you were into that.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

I didn't know you went there. And that just like makes them work together better because they they they're like, Oh, that's so interesting. Oh, I care more about you now, rather than just shooting me an instant message, like when you're cranky, yeah, and then uh you know, you're on my bad side. So, you know, and I think with AI actually, if there's ways that we can train AI to better understand like what's important to humans and what's like what our vulnerabilities are and you know what we struggle with, I think AI will work better. Right? It's almost the same thing, right? Like if we want to create these efficiencies, we need AI to understand humans better and what goes on with them because then they'll bring those things up.

SPEAKER_03 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

You know, like, oh, this isn't working well. Do you know anything about what's going on with, you know, Jerry's family or like what what his health is like or what his hobbies are, because or you know, Susan's health, or you know, what she's interested in. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, yeah. I think what I'm what I'm kind of visualizing as you talk about it's it's like I mean, executive coaching is is leadership coaching. So you're you're becoming the like the leader in your own life. And you said it quickly goes over to personal versus work. I mean, that makes perfect sense because like you have to lead yourself through your personal life too, right? And whatever your home life is and and all of that. Yes, and then lead at business, even if you're not the top leader, like you're still leading in some capacity. And so I love how you're talking calling that out, that it flows together. So I almost see like as that leader invests in themselves and understands what might be different with three members of their team and their different working styles, like when they go home, they can apply that same new way of looking and observing to maybe their children and being like, oh, this child's not being defiant. Yes, they just have a different way that they need the rules, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Amen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah, that's the power, like that's really, I mean, powerful change, right? That executive now has like an improved home life and an improved work life, and everybody's rising together.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yes, yes. Yeah, that's like the jewel that you just uh uncovered that most people don't realize or don't acknowledge.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

They need to work together. There needs to be, they need to be copacetic. And and I think one thing I've really noticed is people with kids versus people without kids, or especially like single people, priorities are very different. Like work can, especially in like a traditional work environment where you have an employer and there's an organization, work can loom especially large if you don't have a family you're going home to or kids, because it's so meaningful. But if you have like three kids or you know, at home who each have their own challenges and who you're shuttling places after work and you have to cook for, and you're you're aware of them, like that's a priority. And your your paycheck is often supporting that. I remember running to this woman in an elevator at a job I had about 10 years ago, and I was like, and she like had this big side. I'm like, how's your day going? Like, is it stressful? She's like, Oh no, like the real work happens when I leave.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

And I was like, oh wow, that's a very different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

You know, it's so true. I remember when I was a relatively new mom, meaning my kids were uh young enough that I had to carry them, you know, like into the daycare in the morning and stuff like that. I remember I got into work one day and I was in the ladies' restroom and I was like like wiping something off my coat, you know, and someone's like, You okay? I was like, Oh, just you know, someone's not got on my coat. Like I was like joking about it. She's like, it's not yours, is it? And I was like, no, she's like, then you're having a good day. You know, and I was like, that's so true.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Oh, that's funny, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

It's like I could keep on going, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, because yeah, it's it's like the hardest part sometimes is is that uh you just don't know which environment it's showing up in. Yeah, and I think you called out something really important of like identity, right? Like because before if you're like I know before I had kids, there was so much of the pie of who made me that was like very career centric, you know. But then it's like kids, now you have like a like my piece of the pie had like who are you as a mother, you know, and to to bring that together. So I love that like like what I've seen from executive coaching is it does naturally blend into life coaching and forward movement, you know, in both areas of of your life.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

I know Can I make one additional plug there?

SPEAKER_01 43:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

With managers, people managers who are understanding about people's lives outside of work, yeah, like are better managers. They just are because it really helps to balance like what you're getting from people. And you can get so much more from people when they feel valued.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

So even if you're like, oh, this person has to leave at three o'clock to pick up their kids, like if you need them to do some extra work that night or on the weekend, not not a ton, not to burn themselves out, but like it needs to get done, they're more. likely to do it than if you're like, no, I need you to stay till five o'clock. Right. That person is going to be angry. They're not going to be like they're going to be pissed that they're paying for daycare when they could pick their kid up. They're not going to get back online later. They're looking for another job. Right. But if you, you know, not overly permissive, but if you're just understanding of them, you get more out of them. You just do.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

Gosh, it makes perfect sense. Brian, I feel like, gosh, going back to the point you made where organizations are investing a lot in AI right now. And definitely here they're not investing in maybe the hiring aspects. But it almost seems to me like there'd be a huge advantage to scoping out some of that investment and like actually investing in their current employment space, you know, and and kind of these carving out the space to like know and lead your teams well and grow yourself as a leader at a time when so much is changing. So I know we're we're kind of running out of time. I'd love to like hear more about like how do you work with with people, you know, as we as we share this podcast and I know that there's leaders out there who are looking to figure out like what's what's their next step in their career for leadership? Is the organization going to change? A lot of organizations are getting smaller. You know getting to know your team better is more important. So I'd love to like just get a sense of how do you generally like start off working with with leaders that are looking to make some changes and what's the best way for people to reach out with you. I know we'll put it in the show notes, but you know just kind of to start I imagine a lot of people are like yeah I want to start but so much is changing it kind of seems like it could be an uncertain time. So I think it'd be helpful to get a sense of like how do you actually work with people because I know coaching involves a lot of extra work up at the front to like kind of lay a foundation for the the coaching to be successful, you know, for the workers to come in.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

It depends. I mean I I think I I really try to tailor my work to each organization. I I don't have like a ton of out of the box things. I mean I do have some like management training that I think everyone needs to know especially if they're a new manager.

SPEAKER_03 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

But it really comes down to this is a philosophy of mind like I I like empathetic leadership. I really stress that which means listening to your employees. Like you don't have to agree with them but you have to listen to them and like hear them at every level.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

And you just you just learn a lot more. So that's what I first do is I listen to what are the pain points you know for an organization. And I always do a further needs assessment as long as it's in budget. You know if I'm just coaching one person like that's fine and we can focus on that and hopefully it radiates out from that. But people need to feel heard.

SPEAKER_03 46:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

And you know I think we're moving a little bit more from this sort of training model where people go through a a training for an hour or two hours and then they're expected just know something behave differently. I think those can work as long as you're really focused on what's the action that you take from the training. Yeah. But really a better investment is to like you know hire BSCC to be with you for six months. Get to know your organization get to know not just your C-suite but your next level of managers. I had a client that I worked with for two years where we really uncovered a lot of pain points a lot of what was going on with the staff and there was like a pretty contentious thing with the staff just because they didn't feel listened to.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

And so we got a lot of data we did surveys we did focus groups and then when they had meetings like large meetings with the staff or check-ins they showed okay we got this data from you here's how we're using it and implementing and that was like a regular thing every time they met each manager would have that as an agenda piece in their individual team meetings. Yeah and then the staff was like huh hmm well they are actually listening to us which I didn't expect like maybe I can feel included more. They didn't get a lot more promotions. They didn't get a lot more pay now I encourage both of those things if you want to keep people but but they were more included right like the culture shifted and you know I think one of the the potentially scary or problematic times about right now is you know how we had the quiet quitting a few years ago and everyone was worried about losing employees. And then you know inflation spiked and now we have all these threats to the economy and um it's more of a sort of a hirer's hiring market than a job seeker market. Now is actually the time to really value the employees you have because that that will shift that's going to change.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

And once it changes you don't have time to like suddenly make your employees feel valued.

SPEAKER_03 49:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

They'll be out the door right so now is the time well you have a little more time your employees aren't going anywhere where you can remind them I don't value you just because you can't quit. Yeah I value you because a lot of like you're saying smaller you're doing two jobs. Yeah so many people do two jobs only one of which they're paid for right super resentful and like if you can just say as an employer like acknowledge that and say like this is where we are this is what we can pay you but I trust you you know to take on this additional responsibility and I really value that and I think it'll help you long term when we can promote you we will but also you can say if you need to go elsewhere these this work will help you there.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

And that often keeps somebody there right because they don't leave bosses they don't leave jobs right that's that's a truism so oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Brian thank you so much we're going to share your your resources but I really BrianSwartz.org is my website Brian at Brian Schwartz.org is my email those are great places to go and then there's the Substack and the the movie brain and life work too yeah yes we'll share that as well but I I feel like one like thank you so much for coming on because I feel like you know it's a time of a lot of change and that opens the door for really positive change you know and I think when there's so much talk about like the tech these conversations about yeah the the human element it's it's harder to do because it's like it takes hard it takes a little bit longer to measure the impact right versus right now we're used to like running an AI prompt and then we see a result. So it does take longer. But you know I think you were calling out like the benefit for like investing in that kind of leadership for yourself and what it can do for both your home life and professional life which is like the benefit is like far surpasses any benefit that you could get with I think using that time and AI right now, right? Because the ripple effects keep going when you invest in people.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Right. Right. And if you think about just a quick aside like the the ways that really big tech companies have suffered you know lawsuits they've lost and conflicts they've had with government or other tech firms it's mostly been around not focusing enough on people, not not focusing on the negative effects of their social media on people, on teens on you know and if they just did more of that they wouldn't lose all that money. They wouldn't suffer their stock wouldn't take a hit you know it's really investing in people is like preventive medicine, you know?

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Oh I love that. I love that thought I love that view. Yeah I'm gonna adopt that you know whenever I feel I think it it pops up in my head sometimes where I'm like uh there's this busy work that feels like it's more urgent but the proactiveness of in like investing in in people in relationships and growth you know I love it it saves money dude it just does and people forget that like if you want to increase your bottom line long term invest in people. Yeah oh I love that that's a great way to close off thank you so much Brian thank you for our upcoming conversations and I'm gonna go ahead and hit stop on the record here.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yeah sounds good