Why ADHD Coaching Works When “Tips & Tricks” Don’t with David Wake

In this conversation, ADHD coach David Wake breaks down what many people miss:

ADHD isn’t just about focus. It’s about emotion, transitions, shame, sleep, and the invisible effort it takes to do “simple” things — especially when you’ve spent years blaming yourself.

We talk about:

The emotional side of ADHD (including excitement, urgency, and intensity)

Why mornings and sleep are such common pain points

How relationships get strained when ADHD isn’t understood

Why medication can be life-changing — and why it still isn’t the whole picture

What coaching provides that no checklist ever will: safety, insight, accountability, and a new way to make sense of your mind

If you’re ADHD and tired of “just do this” advice that never sticks, this episode offers a more grounded explanation — and a path forward that doesn’t require you to become a different person.

To learn more about David Wake ADHD Coaching, visit https://www.davidwakeadhdcoaching.com

Follow Beyond the Mind on Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

That's okay. It's good to capture. I mean, we're two ADHD people having a having a conversation. Tangents are bound to happen. Okay. So I have David Wake with me here. David, thank you so much for joining me here on the Beyond the Mind podcast. You and I know each other because we're in the same ADHD coaching group with uh Kristen Carter, which is a coaching group that I hold uh near and dear to my heart. And I'm so excited uh to have you on to just share your journey, but also as part of your journey, you became an ADHD coach. And so, you know, I know that's an area that I'm so excited to dive into, but why don't you go ahead and tell us a bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Sure. So I currently live in California in Silicon Valley. As you can probably tell, I grew up in England. So I came here in 1997 to go to graduate school. I think I got off the plane and just fell in love with the weather. So then I decided to stay here. I did my studies. I've been working in uh Silicon Valley for the last two decades or so, and I recently just become aware of uh how powerful ADHD coaching can be, and I'm really excited to be able to coach people myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Oh, so wonderful. So growing up in England and then you know, move over to the States, like that already seems like such a big jump. I'm glad that you liked it and have settled here in the Bay Area. Yes, since uh, you know, a large part of I guess the the passion beyond of the thin beyond the mind is just understanding like the journeys that people have taken to better understand themselves and then support themselves in reaching their potential. And I'd love to just know a little bit of context of what it was like for you growing up, you know, having a neurodiversity, but being undiagnosed, and a little bit of like that journey, like what led to ultimately your your diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yes. So I wasn't diagnosed until I came here in graduate school. But looking back, certainly from hindsight, is pretty obvious. So I strongly suspect there's ADHD in my family, although no one is diagnosed to my knowledge. But let me see. So I think I was always well thinking back to my education, I was always I I guess I was always doing pretty well, but I definitely was distractable, very far from a kind of model student. Yeah. Tell me more, because well, I I remember I got in trouble. This would be, I don't know, I must have been about seven or eight. Yeah, I think I think they I was in I was in class and they I think I would always finish my test really early, and that annoyed the teacher. And then there was another student who I think was having some difficulties. So they put him next to me, hoping that like I guess I would help him out somehow. But it ended up with me just doing the same thing and just distracting him by chatting to him about unreligious. So that didn't work. And I I can just remember a lot, you know, getting in well, I wasn't in trouble, but I wasn't, I think I was behaving in unorthodox ways. I remember getting in trouble for I guess talking back to the teachers sometimes, shouting out answers, that kind of thing. My main memory, actually, I might ask you to edit this out if I'm too embarrassed about it, is that my childhood was dominated by having crushes on people, uh-huh, going back to about I don't know, six or seven.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

It's almost as though I needed that as a kind of emotional, almost background noise. Without that kind of intensity, I would just kind of lose touch or my life would become too meaningless, or something like that. So looking, and I since found out that this is very common for people with ADHD. But at the time, I guess I assumed everyone was like this. But with the benefit of hindsight, I think that this definitely was a precursor to having ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Wow, that's fascinating. I've never heard anybody talk about that before, but uh I can relate because I think when I look back at my childhood, there was a lot of like emotional, I don't know how to I was to say it's questions, but almost like a like a yearning, like there was always someone that I'm like, oh, I want to get to know that person better, or a friend group that I wanted to belong in, you know, like a like a yeah, like a yearning reach and uh curiosity and fascination. And it it was something that like my mind would focus on in class instead of what was you know being presented.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

So tell me more, because you said you've you've learned that this is the yeah, I think well to be to be fair, I think I learned there's some Reddit, you know, it might not be true. Okay so strongly for me that I thought, well, obviously that must be true because it fits in with my experience. Yeah. But it's really odd to think not everyone was was doing that.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Other people were probably just paying attention to the teacher or whatever they were supposed to be doing. But that I think looking back, that just wasn't emotionally intense enough for me.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Yeah, that makes sense. And I I find it kind of fascinating coming from you because my you know, experience in probably all the interactions that I've had with you have been like you're just so like calm and regulated. Like you seem to me like somebody who uh I guess wouldn't have that kind of inner experience, like your inner experience would be very like calm and structured, you know. So it's it's fascinating to hear, right? Because it goes to show how much like we never know what somebody's like internal experience. Well, I know you're talking about childhood, but I just wouldn't have guessed, I wouldn't have guessed that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yes. Well, I think part of that is this is me after what a few years of being coached. Yeah. And also I think just being a coach and kind of watching myself has helped me convey more calmness.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

And I think I do feel calm when I'm meeting people. I think when I'm on my own. Like let's say I wake up first thing in the morning. Okay, you know, I'm I'm desperately trying to get going. I'm not feeling calm at all.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

If I did feel calm, I'd probably go back to bed. So there's a kind of urgency there.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Yeah, there's that is that is very different. Okay. Uh yeah, from from calmness.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah. So it sounds like you look back in childhood, okay. There's some like a couple like signs of things that were missed, but from what you're describing, I can see how you know some a lot of it that you've described is internal, like not there's a little bit of like the chatting and the external distractibility, but the age group you described, it seems like, all right, that's probably like quote unquote normal, you know, to have a hard time sitting still. Like, how how did all of that like continue on?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

You know, and like where did you if I look back at like class photos of myself from I don't know, nine, ten, yeah, I I do look very different. I'm kind of not standing up straight, I'm kind of looking moody. So I definitely see something different about me.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

And I think to some extent, you know, that that started to straighten itself out a bit, even in my teens, but I think there was definitely a lot of internal turmoil. Yeah. I was certainly a very awkward teenager. I was didn't feel like I fit in, didn't feel like I was socially where I wanted to be. So I think a lot of my teen years were just thinking, you know, things will get better when I'm older and I go to college or you know, get a job or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

But yeah, I I don't think that was the best time of my life.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

It's shocking me.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Yeah. That's kind of hard to look back on those years. I know you and I have kids around the same age, and I don't know about you, but even when I pull up to like the middle school, the high school, like just remembering what it was like to be in those years, I I cringe inside, just in the little flashbacks that come in drop-offs, because those, yeah, those are hard years, you know. I think.

unknown 9:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

But you went on to to do your undergrad in was that in England?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah. So I actually I ended up getting a musical scholarship because music was a really important part of my life, as we mentioned. So I I think I spent certainly the majority of my mental energy as a in high school on music.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Um, so I ended up doing that, I think with a dream of becoming a musician, of course. You know, everyone knows that's an unrealistic ambition, but I thought I'd go with it. Um, and of course, when you get away to college, there's much less structure in every aspect of your life. And for me, there was also this responsibility to organize music, which taxed my executive functions even more strongly. So I really think that yeah, to some extent things fell apart at college. I mean, it wasn't a disaster, but it was definitely, you know, I guess I've been used to performing really well before that, academically and I guess musically. And of course, when you get to college, there's always someone who's smarter than you, who's better than you at everything. And uh, you know, that that hit me as it probably hits quite a few people. Um, but especially with the lack of structure with ADHD, um, yeah, I think I think I kind of wasn't really sure what I wanted to do next.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Yeah, I think the experience you're calling out is so important because um, you know, the research shows that the jump from high school to whatever follows high school is a really difficult part for anybody who has undiagnosed, at least ADHD. I imagine any neurodiversity, this comes in because whatever tools you've used and whatever structure was there in your um, you know, high school years has now gone away. Right. So uh without the executive functions, you are now trying to like scramble and build up your your new tools and coping mechanisms. And there's not a lot of support around to do that, you know. I feel like it's a big um miss that there's not some type of neurodiversity awareness, especially in college environments, knowing that like this is a huge area where symptoms start to show and and people really fall below what is their potential, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Um yes, yeah. When I look back, um I was struggling. Um I do remember going to the counseling service at the university to just see if they could help me. And basically being told to just you know try harder, pull your socks up, pull yourself together, you know, the standard, the standard stuff. You're like, I am, that's why I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

That's what the stuff was, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, yeah, that that in retrospect, you know, that was a missed opportunity. Um, and I guess everyone would like to go back and live their life over again.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Um, but yeah, just like everyone else, I guess I would I feel like if I could go back over again, you know, there'd be a lot of differences, a lot of things I could have done better, a lot of opportunities I could have taken. Um, so yeah, that's frustrating, but I guess at least I've at least I figured it out now. So better late than never.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah. Um it kind of seems like a a good time to ask, even though I know we'll get into it a little bit more later, but is is was that is that experience and the the loss like a big catalyst to why you wanted to become an ADHD coach and younger folks too, right? In your coaching.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

So yeah. And I do think I one thing I do notice is that with younger people now, I think there's a on average, there's less shame than there tends to be of people in my age group, which I think is a very positive change. Um, probably related to greater awareness and acceptance of of um these conditions in wider society.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, I think so too. Um, I don't know if your client, I'm I'm doing a tangent here, but um I'll kind of go back to college. Uh, but I don't know if all a lot of your clients are in the age group where they've read like the Percy Jackson series. But um to me, that seems like this, I don't know, this really cool awareness mechanism. Um like I know when my I'll just tell you when my son started reading it, he he was excited to tell me, he goes, Oh my gosh, mommy, you know, the uh Percy, the main character, he has ADHD. And I was like, really? How did they bring that up? And then they, you know, he was trying to tell me stuff about it. And he goes, he goes, and he has dyslexia, you know, and so the and so he's talking about it. And um I was like, oh, that's really fascinating. And when I read the book myself, I um I kind of like how it was intertwined with, I guess, his like superpowers, you know, like um, I don't know if the author meant that, but I just thought like, what a cool way for that generation to hear these terms in like such a non-negative connotation, you know. It's um, I don't know if it was necessarily like a positive, but you know, just not negative.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And um yeah, so I'm curious if if if that's come up in no, that that hasn't specifically come up in terms of Percy Jackson, but just the general awareness, you know. I you know, no one ever suggested remotely to me that I might have ADHD. And of course, you know, like a lot of other people, you know, I thought ADHD was, you know, people who who like couldn't sit, well, I couldn't sit still really, but you know, couldn't sit still even worse than me, who would like drop out of school, who you know were criminals or in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Um, so I had all of those classic stereotypes, I guess, from the 1980s.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Um, so yeah, when I was eventually diagnosed, I didn't believe it um initially, as I know is quite common.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah. Okay, so so to like take us to the we'll go back to college because you were struggling. Um, and is it safe to assume that you kind of like pulled it enough together to get by, or did you finish college feeling like you had developed some tools that you were like thriving, you know?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, I didn't feel I developed any tools. Okay. I just I guess I just managed to get through. So I I I got through college, I didn't do as well as I had hoped. I guess you know, I didn't completely fail either. So um, yeah, but I I definitely I hadn't figured out, oh yeah, this is the tool I'm gonna use to to manage my life in future. Yeah, nothing like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Okay, yeah, it's it's hard to look back at that period, at least for me when I look back and realize like there was very little self-management happening in because you know, we'll talk about that black.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

I just remember you know locking myself in my room, drinking coffee all the time, and just you know, just doing my best. And there were tons of all-nighters, there was tons of, I don't know, me just kind of getting very tense and very um, I guess we would say hyper focused now, but I I didn't I wasn't aware of that concept at the time.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Yeah, and how how did you were you comparing yourself to like friends or your classmates that were in the same major like were you looking around and seeing yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

I will see there were other people who just seem to have everything at their fingertips. Yeah, and I never felt like that, but I would have blamed myself. I would have said, Well, you weren't paying attention, yeah. You weren't concentrating, you didn't go to the library enough, you didn't attend these lectures. That there's always there's always reasons you can point to to blame yourself, right? Of course I did that because that's that's what everyone did back then.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah, yeah, because what else like without any concept of I think even understanding like, oh, this is a part of the way that your brain functions, and I might have a deficit in something like planning, you know, without like some basic understanding of something else that you could go to, like what else is there to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Um yeah, just try harder.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

It's it's really yeah, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Um I yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

So then I mean, you applied for grad school, like why would you want to go back through schooling again? What happened?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, so I think a big part of it was just that I I didn't know what to do. I think I was terrified of getting a job.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Because I felt that would expose all of my dysfunction, you know, be on time and show up to things. And I think applying for grad school in the US, which is what I did, it almost seemed like, well, maybe maybe there's some magic potion out there that'll that'll make everything better. It was a kind of moonshot, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Magic potion, like, oh gosh, maybe this change in environment and change of my surroundings and people that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

I I guess I just thought um maybe there's something different out there.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

That can where I can flourish.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, that makes sense, you know. I feel like I feel like what you're probably doing is like at least having some awareness that, like, okay, there's like I've been trying so much in this environment for so long. Maybe, maybe there is something in my environment. Maybe there is like let me go explore with the different surroundings and see if I still have the same challenges or if things improve, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, and the only impression I had of the US was from TV.

unknown 19:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Like everything always seemed, you know, glamorous and the sun's always shining. So, you know, I guess I had that conception of, you know, maybe there's something different and maybe I can do better there. No real realistic basis for that, but I guess it was a kind of reckless step in retrospect, I guess, because I was throwing away, I didn't know anyone there. I was basically throwing away all my friendships that I built and all the the knowledge I built over those years.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

But I I guess I don't know. I just I just thought, well, maybe there's something different.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

You know, I I want to try it.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

That's cool. I that's so cool that you did that. Okay, so you came here for grad school. Like, how did your diagnosis come come about?

SPEAKER_00 20:01

So in my so in my first year, I was supposed to be doing a PhD. In my first year, uh the same issues I've been having before hit me. Just inability to structure my time, inability to organize my materials, you know, inability to do my studies, basically.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Sorry, I missed what you you said because what so you you went to grad school.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

D were you doing straight PhD, or did you do like Yeah, I was admitted to do a PhD, yeah. Okay, yeah, not a master's program, like I yeah, but you can usually get a master's after a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Oh, okay. Okay, so really cool. So you went straight actually to a PhD program, which I find that fascinating because struggling in school and a perception to me of like, oh gosh, a PhD, you know, which takes a rigorous. Okay, so what I'm what I'm connecting from this, and tell me if I'm wrong, it's almost like there was something in the PhD that was a benefit enough that it almost took over or balanced out the fear of oh gosh, this is perhaps a more rigorous program and I've already struggled.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

And well, I guess there was fear, but there wasn't anything better on the horizon.

unknown 21:14

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah, maybe I'll go there and I'll magically start being able to to to do well.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

And you know, I I was able to focus on things sometimes. So maybe I'd be able to focus on whatever I decided to write a PhD about. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Because thank you. Thank you for that. I don't know, just when I'm thinking about those years, I know my butt, like I just I'm remembering the anxiety of like any decision, right? Like, so yeah, thank that may yeah. So you then you came here. Okay, so sorry, go on. And now you're you're doing your PhD, you're in the US.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yes, and I'm having the same issues with the academics. So I went to the counseling services here. And in contrast to what happened before, they basically took one look at me and said, You probably have ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Really? Sent me off a counseling service for the school?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Okay. Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

So they sent me off to an educational psychologist. I still remember that that person gave me a series of tests.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

And you know, some of them were just verbal reasoning, math, stuff like that. And I I usually do fairly well on that kind of test. But I do remember one test where they they had you look at a kind of drawing of a family having a picnic for maybe a minute. And then they took it away and said, you know, write down everything you can remember about that picture.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

And apparently I I was in like the bottom first percentile or something for that question, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Okay. It's really interesting. And it's interesting that you had to do some math.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Like I don't I think I did, yeah. I I honestly I couldn't swear. There's definitely like logical kind of questions. Okay. But anyway, the result of that was that I got a diagnosis. Okay. Even though I was sure I didn't have it going into the diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

I thought, well, I'll do it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah. So I mean it makes sense. They're like, you probably have ADHD, and you're like, were you thinking I'll just go through this and get the process of elimination started, you know? And I probably won't have that, and then I'll figure out what's next.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I didn't have anything better to do, so okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

So okay, so then you had it. So tell us like your reaction because like you said, you didn't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

No, I think I didn't really believe it. I can't, I think they started off by giving me caffeine tablets. This in retrospect seems a really weird prescription.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

When you got your diagnosis?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Although I I couldn't swear to it because I think I've I've lost all my records from this time.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I think they did give me maybe Eritalin for a little bit, which may or may I can't remember whether that helped or not. But it didn't really have a huge impact on me at that time.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And I ended up dropping out of the PhD program. I did get my master's, but I could see that the writing was on the wall. I wasn't gonna make a career out of the PhD. So yeah, that that was that.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Okay. So now you have a a diagnosis and kind of no solutions.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah, I guess. I still I'm still not sure I took the diagnosis very seriously.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Yeah, that that makes sense, I think, especially because you didn't have anything like tangible, like if you you know, whatever they gave you, it's not like you took that and you're like, oh, I can notice this big difference and now I believe you know believe it. Or so yeah, so I guess what was that like the period of just I guess what what stigma did you have at that time? Do you remember about like what AEHD meant and was how is that feeding into I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

I I don't think I gave it too much thought. Um this was back in the 1990s.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

So there was much less material than there is today. And even if they told me to read a book, I probably didn't.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Because that's what I tend to do when people tell me to read a book. So I don't remember at the time, I don't think I did, but I just yeah, I think I just kept going. I ended up trying to get a job in Silicon Valley, and as luck would have it, this was around the time of the 2001 dot-com bubble bursting.

unknown 25:43

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

It was like the worst possible time to try to get your first job in Silicon Valley.

SPEAKER_02 25:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

So that was that was difficult, but eventually I did. So I was so I was working there. I I think actually I remember for the first time thinking that I actually was not screwing up. I wasn't excelling, but I was still, I think the fact that I I could keep a job was actually a surprise to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Like a a serious job. So I could think that was a kind of relief. Um, but I was still, I had a lot of imposter syndrome, and I was constantly getting distracted, constantly afraid that someone would see how distracted I was and get me in trouble.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

I was, I think I I felt like I was kind of surviving rather than thriving.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah, it's hard. So what I'm curious, how did your how did you start accepting like I guess this diagnosis is maybe like, yeah, just how did how did this continue to evolve where then you know you either started just accepting that diagnosis or maybe were forced to look into it more or forced to accept it, but how did that change?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

I do remember that I yeah, I saw a I saw a psychiatrist around this time who who helped me. I think he gave me different medication that I think helped me more.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

I think he gave me Adderall, which I still take today.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Which I think I found more helpful than what I tried before.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

So that was definitely a useful step. And I think I don't know. I mean, I I guess as you get older, you start to know yourself a bit better.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

But still I never felt that I really knew what I was doing, really knew what I was here for.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

You know, I had I had a wife and kids at this point. So obviously that was a big focus. But I didn't feel that outside of that, I really had a kind of mission, if you want to put it that way.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah. Before we move on, I'm curious when you took like the Adderall, what was your experience? What what what made you feel like, oh, this is this works, you know, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

I I think, well, even today, the biggest effect I think is first thing in the morning. So it really gives me a boost at that time. And for most of my life, I've been a very much not a morning person.

unknown 28:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

That's changed recently, but but the vast majority of my life, I would wake up feeling like I'd just you know gone 10 rounds with Mike Tyson and just wanting to fall back asleep again.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

The ad gave me that kind of boost just enough to get me going in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Oh, that's awesome. Okay, so you notice that effect. Yeah, and morning struggles can be so big, so I can imagine that that's like a profound benefit, then right off the bat.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah. And I did notice it would help me focus. I noticed the increase in kind of mental energy. Yeah. It seems an excuse me, an analogy that I I I like and that I've found a lot of people resonate with is that it's a bit like if you go back to the days of sailing ships when you'd have to wait for the wind to blow in the right direction before you could go anywhere. So me without medication is like that.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

I'm just waiting for my motivation to come along.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

It's like the weather, and then I have to catch it if I'm lucky. But with the medication, it's as if I have a little motor that I can turn on and point in the right direction. It's not that powerful, but it gives me just enough to get going.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

After that, I can kind of build on that in terms of motivation.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Oh, I love that analogy. I love that. Uh yeah, I know for me, the first time I tried Adderall, it was the first time that my body actually had some sense of time, like it could actually feel like it was the first time I'd ever felt time in a decision making, which sounds weird to say for I'm sure other people who are like, what do you mean? But like I never, like my body couldn't feel time. And I remember I'd ask people when somebody would say, like, give you instructions, it's like, wait 10 minutes, you know, and you're supposed to wait 10 minutes without a clock. You're like, how do I, how do I do that? How do I know it's been 10 minutes? You know, and because if I am enjoying it, 10 minutes goes really fast. And if I'm bored, 10 minutes feels really slow. So how do I know? And people would laugh at that question, but like it was really like, How do I know? You know, and then it was the first time that I took that the Adderall that I was like, I was doing something, and I know I had to go somewhere, and I had the thought of I don't know, maybe something like starting a load of laundry or something like that. And I just had this like a little feeling of not that I could new minutes or something, but just this little feeling of like, I don't think I have time for that.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And you've never felt that before.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I'd never felt that before. Like, and it wasn't, it wasn't like a it wasn't even very clear of like, I know going and starting that laundry is gonna take 10 minutes versus I need to be out the door. It just even wasn't that clear. It was like it was just starting to become clear to me that like, oh, this thing of like starting the laundry, it's not like it sounds so dumb to say, but I'm gonna say it. It just it was the first time it became clear to me that I'm like, no, it's not instantaneous, it's not actually instantaneous the way I'm picturing it in my head. It's going to take some time.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

So you had a kind of intuition about time.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, in in that first Adderall experience, like that was the first thing that I was like, oh my gosh, this is life-changing. Because I then I it was the first time that I was like, oh, this is what I've been missing that other people seem to know. Like their body is able to gauge some sense of how long things take. And I didn't really have that, you know. And then it clicked to me from like, oh, this is this was why people didn't know how to answer the question. They were probably like, what do you mean? You know, I don't know. Like things just like started to click, and that was enough of like a huge aha that I was like, okay, because I was always resistant to medication, you know, but it was enough to release that resistance and just be curious about all right, I'm curious what ways this medication would keep helping, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah. So thanks for letting me share that because I I I feel like a lot of people have concerns about medication, and so I liked that you got to share like your experience and I got to share mine. So that the people listening are like, what can that really do? You know, there's like a couple examples of how your like day-to-day can be a little easier.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah, I also had concerns growing up. I would never even take a pill for a headache.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

You know, I I don't know, it just wasn't something that that I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

But yeah, when this makes such a huge difference to you, it it changes everything, as you say.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah. So then then take us, take us forward from like now feeling some relief, and then gosh, that seems like there was probably a lot that followed because I'm just between the the pieces I know that you joined a coaching group, but then you became a coach. Like, take us, take us forward. I'm especially interested in like what shifted in in your awareness of how important this was, you know, to start learning about.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yes. It it all seems pretty random looking back. I remember that a few years ago I saw a career coach because I I was obviously seeing that I wasn't thriving as much as I would have liked.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

And that I feel really sorry for this poor lady. She gave me a ton of exercises to do, you know, like how do you see yourself in 10 years, you know, all the standard stuff.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

And I just didn't do any of them. And, you know, she was she was just frustrated with me, understandably. And then she found out I had ADHD. And she said, Well, I think you should you need to figure out the ADHD before you try anything else.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Oh, okay, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

And then, well, being me, I kind of put that on my to-do list.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

But I didn't really know how to find one, and I kind of messed around doing nothing for about six months. And eventually I I found, yeah, I found someone who turned out to be a really amazing coach. I still actually see her today.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

So I think that was the first change that applied to me. And then soon after that, I I found Kristen's podcast and I joined Focused. So those two things happened almost at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Oh, that's awesome. So I'm curious, like you had a individual coach and things were working. What was the draw to then go into to focused?

SPEAKER_00 34:57

I think I just wanted more. I wanted, you know, constant coaching, if you like. I I once I got into this, I was so enthralled that just seeing someone once a week wasn't enough. I wanted to be involved as much as I could. And of course, as you know, in Focus, you know, people can talk to each other all the time. So there's constant in interaction, and I think that really helped me just develop my understanding of this.

unknown 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Did you say people can talk to each other anytime, or people can torture each other anytime?

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Because I heard torture. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

I don't know why I heard torture. And I guess the context of my question there is uh, I mean, within the the focused community, the yeah, I see you're there's a ton of material and knowledge, but so you were more after that, not necessarily like I want community. Is that no?

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Not really. I I've never been very good at following your courses or workbooks, okay. Any of that kind of do this, then this, then this.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

But what really drew me in was just the chat, the communication, the interaction. And that really made me decide that I wanted to be a coach. That I just I enjoyed just trying to help other people, and that was the most meaningful thing to me. Not you know, learning all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah, so so you saw benefit in your life, and then you did the coaching program that Christian Carter leads, right? Uh so it's specific. Tell tell me more. I know it's ADHD specific, but yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

So I took well, I actually took another coaching training first. Okay. That was a much shorter training, but I just decided I wanted to get my feet wet, as it were. So that was really valuable, above all, because there was a lot of opportunities to practice coaching other people.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

So I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Okay. And then you okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah, and then I took Kristen's training, which was a really amazing experience and ADHD focused. So I really loved that too. And I guess I've just kept on going from there.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

So I thanks for calling out that you did a different one before Kristen's, because I'm super curious. Why is like, why wouldn't just that coaching alone be a benefit to then coaching people with ADHD? Like from your perspective of going through, you know, one that was general and one that was ADHD focused, like, why is it somebody important for somebody who might have any neurodiversity? Why might it be important for them to go to a coach that has it's near you know neurodiverse informed?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I think the general principles of coaching are the same, no matter whom you're coaching, but with clients who have ADHD, there's a difference of emphasis, there's a bigger prominence to emotion in my experience. So with people with ADHD, managing your emotions is almost always very important.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

With people who don't have ADHD, sometimes it's important and sometimes it's less important.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Okay. Yeah. Can you can you talk more about that? Because emotional regulation is a like, I guess, can you talk more about ADHD and emotional regulation, like why that fits in?

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Sure. So people with ADHD typically have difficulty regulating their emotions. And I'm not sure if it's officially a symptom yet, but I I believe it may be in some of the pacifications. Okay. I'm sure it will be added to the DSM soon.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Because every person I know with ADHD has well, not necessarily difficulty with emotions, but their emotions are very significant.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

I think in human beings, emotions are like what's under the surface of everyone. But people who don't have ADHD, neurotypical people, some sometimes they've somehow developed a way of managing that in a very smooth way. So it's almost like you see a swan swimming down the river, and the legs are moving really quickly, but above the surface.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

They're very smooth. And that's reflected in. I remember some coaching sessions I've done with with neurotypical people, and it's been very mundane and matter-of-fact. Oh, okay, I'll do this, then this, then this, then this, then this, then this. It's almost a little more boring, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Because it's it's almost just mechanical. But with people with ADHD, there's almost always an emotional element.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

So like transitioning from one task to another typically requires a lot of emotional work for people who have ADHD. Because for us, like if we're into one thing, maybe we're hyper-focusing on it. It's often very difficult to get out of that mode and into something else. And that can require sometimes that can take a long time, or it can just be very hard emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, thank you for that. Thank you for that. It's funny because when I was asking, I was also thinking, I guess I was thinking a little bit more about like was it showing up in interpersonal interaction. So I'm so glad you responded more with like how emotions, how to use your emotions to work with yourself in just the day-to-day needs, right? Okay, so so that was a big focus said in the ADHD coaching was the emotional aspect of it. And I can see if somebody, I guess, isn't ADHD informed, they might not be able to get to like what is the like, I don't want to say like the root cause, but like what's the the focal point need to be in order to change the behavior. You know, and here it needs to focus on like thoughts and emotions, essentially, right? And focusing on that before going over to a shift in behavior. So I imagine that, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to to just kind of I guess hear a little bit more about like your your coaching experience and then what you noticed when you started coaching.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Um yeah, and you talked about relationships, and that's also very important. I think, well, it's not exclusive to people with ADHD, yeah, but it can often be that people are very feel very shameful or embarrassed, or there's so much stigma attached to behaviors associated with ADHD, that people are often ashamed to bring up, like maybe they need more time, they need more help with something that they feel they shouldn't. And that can become an issue in a relationship, say at work, yeah, or it could be in your personal relationships as well. You know, why am I always late to meet my significant other? Yeah, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Well, what I find fascinating about the emotional aspect is it's it's not always about even negative emotions, right? Like it's not it's not like, oh, you're unable to manage your anger or your sadness. And so like it's not necessarily that in a dynamic, it's hard because there's just like these like negative emotions. I don't know, I don't know how to describe it except for maybe I'll just tell a story that like I've had to learn through my journey about uh better managing like my excitement, you know, because of the effect that that could have. And I think a lot of times, I mean, one of the things that I had to learn is gosh, like my excitement can be so high. And even though I know like this big step I'm gonna take, or you know, the opportunity I'm looking at, like I can come to it with like all of this excitement. And I think before I understood ADHD, I would never understand why everybody squashed my excitement right away and was like, but in reality, you know, X, Y, like I and it was just so hard because I'm like, I don't understand why I can't share good news with the people around me. Like, of course, I don't believe everything is gonna 100% turn out okay, but I'm just super excited, you know, I'm like super hopeful and excited. But it just seemed like others didn't know how to take that. And so it would almost be like, let's ground her down in reality, which for me was just like, gosh, popping all these bubbles, you know. But um it also showed up in some of the the day, the day to day things, like after I got diagnosed, um and I understood where some of these patterns were showing up. I was chatting with my kids and and they were like, yeah, it's really frustrating when sometimes you come in, you know, and and you're like, oh my gosh, I have the best idea for what we can do today. You guys, it's gonna be so much fun. You know, and they're like, and then we're all hyped up to, you know, to hear what this is. And literally my idea is like, the weather's so great. We should go walk down to the library, get a couple books, you know, and maybe like set out that picnic blanket that we wanted to. It's gonna be so much fun. And they're like, oh, you know, and they're just like so but they there was this like effect that it was having on them that, you know, I had to hear like oh yeah that can be such a letdown if I'm but to me I'm like you were just expressing how you felt. I was just expressing how I felt and I was like oh my gosh we've been wanting to do this. It's a great day. I'm so excited we can do it today. But I mean like I think their feedback was good feedback because then I'm coming to them with this like great idea and they're like oh that's such a letdown you know and and then they called out something that I've experienced in actually multiple inner personal dynamics even in the workplace with this is then when you're so excited they're like and then we don't know how to tell you that we're not so excited about your plan. And I I know that that dynamic would show up in some of my working teams where I'd be like oh my gosh and then we can do this and we can do that and people are like oh I there's like a almost like a guilt like I'm not as excited as you are and I don't know how to say that because I'd be popping you know what I mean like so so I I feel like that I don't know it can show up the the the dysregulation can show up in so many ways that have these like subtle effects and you know your interpersonal dynamics and yeah yeah I feel like what you described is an aspect of you know sometimes our emotions are super high and sometimes they can be low.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

And when they're really high we want to share that but that might not always be what other people want to perceive and they may have even seen times in the past when we got super excited about something and then after a while the the excitement kind of died down.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Which tends to be a quite a common pattern with ADHD is so yeah so so how how does this play into coaching? Like when tell tell me like just what your experience has been being an ADHD coach and well I mean from my own personal point of view it's been incredibly meaningful and incredibly rewarding in terms of what kinds of issues people face everything in life. Yeah but there are definitely some patterns that you see over and over again some of them are related to what you said sometimes people get very excited and then they make impulsive decisions. Like maybe they spend a lot of money on something that after a while they end up wishing they hadn't. Yeah. So that's fairly common issues with your relationships again often involving impulsivity or shame quite often another issue I see a lot in fact an a surprising amount is sleep and the mornings yes the common issue.

SPEAKER_01 47:31

That takes is it because that takes regulation to go to bed when you don't want to go to bed, right? That takes like a self-management and emotional regulation aspect is that the core reason why sleep is such a challenge for it's it's certainly one of them. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

I I'm not sure what the ultimate reason is. Yeah I know that I had trouble doing this for years but one thing that people often find is that like maybe especially if they don't feel like they have much time during the day to themselves. Yeah that maybe late night is the only time they have to just be themselves to explore the things they're interested in.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

And then sometimes that can take on a life of its own and they end up staying up to like 5 a.m or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yes that makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

And then of course they're tired the next day and the cycle keeps going on.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Yeah I mean I want to call out like like you you do coaching in addition to your day job.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

So it must be very like fulfilling for you you know because you don't need to be spending your time coaching you know it's not like I don't need to in a sense of yeah just well I just mean like you know because you you work full time you have a family like you know it's yeah it just gives me it's just something that I feel like I I want to do and yeah that maybe I I was meant to do I don't know I love that just feel a bit like that.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Tell me tell me more like about the yeah the the experience of coaching people and helping them because you've coached me uh before and I'm always amazed that in like a 30 minute you know session that we've had how much can shift in such a short amount of time so I want to dig into that a little bit more because I think you know obviously there's value in like long-term like coaching but just how much like even in one session like it can really shift somebody's understanding of how to to work with themselves or what they're struggling with.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yes. I think there's a variety of factors that make coaching so effective I think one of them is just having someone to talk to yeah who's you know who you can feel safe talking to who's not going to judge you who who's gonna be confidential. Yeah so I think even just having that can be a really big step. And then someone who can help you perhaps understand what's going on for you in your own mind or your own body is also really useful. Yeah if that person can maybe put things into a different perspective maybe make things more understandable make your emotions make more sense to your to your kind of higher mental faculties.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Or can sometimes just being able to give someone encouragement or validation is also very effective and very meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Tell us more about your your coaching services because I know that I know that you work with you youths as well as adults but yeah like how tell us a little bit more about uh coaching services like for anybody who's interested that is curious if you know you work with this major yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Yeah I I work with anyone who's kind of mid to late teens and above. Okay so there's no upper limit. And in fact some very rewarding sessions can happen with people who maybe have been diagnosed very late in life and they can have their own issues like regret sometimes anger that so much for so long they struggled under this burden that no one was supporting them to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

I think that's such an important call out that you making because before my diagnosis I would have assumed oh you get a diagnosis and then you understand what hasn't been working and then everything is sunny and up you know positive and like a positive traction after that but there's this there is a lot of like grief uh and sadness and I've I've heard it called for your sister life like for the life that could have been had you have known this about yourself sooner. And I remember I I talked to a neurodiversity coach I think it was like six oh yeah it was probably like six months into my diagnosis and she probably mentioned it because I remember she said oh your your first year you really need to like your first year is real like kind of like there's so much grief you know so she was just telling me like it's okay that you don't have the skills like in place right now almost like your first year is a lot of grief you know and I think she must have used the term sister life. And I think what you're calling out is like it's really important because no matter if somebody gets their diagnosis let's say at like 25, there's you know a lot of looking back into like oh my school years and stuff but a lot of people are getting their diagnosis in their 60s 70s plus and then there's a lot to process right gosh yeah I I don't know I just I want to I guess call that out because I feel like just to normalize getting coaching with the diagnosis you know for that support. But I know a lot of parents like who are getting support for their kids early they feel like they're not doing a lot and I always want to say like no you're saving them from so much like by starting the coaching and support early you're saving them from unnecessary hardship you know later. So I would looking back on my own life I would give so much to to have had the support I now enjoy 10 years ago 20 years ago yeah 40 years ago for that matter so it's always possible to look back and wish things were different and that's a very natural thought to have yeah do do a lot of your clients have you seen a lot of clients have people already in their life who understand neurodiversity or are willing to understand it with their diagnosis or are most people feeling alone and misunderstood like it's it varies.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Okay. I'd say probably most common is somewhere in between often it might be someone who who accepts that you have ADHD and has some understanding of the symptoms but doesn't appreciate the extent to which it affects every aspect of your life.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

It might be a say a partner who can't accept you know that that you're unable to be perhaps as helpful around the house as you might be or as emotionally regulated as you might be um or you know sometimes there are people that very very supportive people in their lives and sadly there are people who have no support at all. Yeah their their family members don't even believe that ADHD is a real thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Right which is yeah which is heartbreaking it is it is wow gosh I know we're we're almost at time I know we're gonna provide in the show notes a link for people to be able to contact you and learn more about your services I'm I don't know I guess like I want to I I'm not quite clear what my question is I guess I want to ask a little bit about like you know there was a so much you covered there in terms of like coaching being able to help people understand themselves feel understood where they might not have it in their environment in the full capacity that they need. You know you also talked about understanding and getting tools for working with gosh all the different places that emotions show up from the day to day and managing yourself but also the big picture of grief and sadness and processing the years lost not you know understanding this big aspect in and of itself I guess within all that like if there's someone that's like I don't know you know how sometimes you think you're like uh should I try coaching should I not like everything seems like a lifelong decision or no decision. Like how would you to like tell somebody to just kind of try it out you know and and like see how coaching can benefit them you know and and encourage them to to try it instead of feeling like it needs to be this all or nothing big lifelong decision you know well it doesn't need to be a big decision.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Yeah you could just most I think most people will offer a free initial session so you can just get a sense of whether you like them whether you feel comfortable with them.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

And just give it a try. And if you don't feel if you don't feel like it's helping you then stop or try someone else.

unknown 56:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

I love that thank you thank you. And you know I think the the place where my head was also going is I don't I don't from a lot of the uh events that I've been at recently when I've talked to at least parents who have children who are like recently diagnosed and they talk a lot about like medication I'm worried that my child is going to have to be on medication and there's actually not a lot of awareness like when somebody's diagnosed that coach like coaching is actually the longer term solution right to learning how to work with yourself and manage yourself.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

You know I think to be fair I think medication is a long-term solution when when people on ADHD find a medication that works for them they typically want to keep taking it and yeah unless at some point in the future we find some magical cure for ADHD which seems unlikely I think a lot of people will just keep taking medication I'm sure I'll keep taking it yeah for the rest of my life and I'm very happy to do that because it helps me so much.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Yeah that that makes sense and I feel the same like I I think my medication is of incredible value. I think where I I don't really see it I guess so much as a solution in that context is like medication alone didn't help me understand how to really work with myself you know and the ways of setting expectations of what I could do better like really understanding what was driving some behaviors and then how to shift out of them. And so that's where I feel like like it's when I look at like how grateful I am for what I've learned you know since the diagnosis I think the medication has definitely been a huge support system but I think a lot of it is the coaching you know and I I I personally just feel like at the time that sometimes that diagnoses are given that it's just a medication that's handout without reference to like what executive function coaching ADHD coaching like what that can do is a is a miss you know because I think that the coaching aspect has so much value.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yes absolutely and yeah in my personal case I was just given medication yeah and I know that's true for a lot of people and medication can help but it's not going to give you everything. Yeah and with the coaching well there's the human aspect you're relating to another person and that's different from just taking a pill. Yeah but I think that's very significant because you know we're kind of hardwired to care about relationships. Yeah so that's why you know I don't think AI is gonna completely replace coaching or anything like that either although I'm sure it will supplement it. But in addition to that there's the aspect of learning new techniques learning new skills learning new ways to conceptualize your life to think about problems that are things that you can learn and hopefully remember and apply to your future problems in life even if you're no longer getting coached every week.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yes oh that's beautiful that's a beautiful way to close out uh so thank you so much david I'm gonna hit stop on the recording and then we'll make sure to capture all the ways to contact you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

So thank you I see hold on hit