From Burnout to Building an ADHD App | Tahir Finley Interview

What happens when you spend your entire life trying harder… but still feel like you’re falling behind?

In this episode of the Beyond the Mind podcast, I sit down with Tahir Finley, founder of ADHD Game Plan and creator of the ADHD support app Anchor, for an honest conversation about late-diagnosed ADHD, burnout, nervous system overwhelm, and the invisible emotional labor of trying to function in systems that weren’t built for your brain.

Tahir shares his journey through:

struggling in school despite wanting desperately to succeed
conflicting ADHD diagnoses and medication experiences
military structure, entrepreneurship, burnout, and identity collapse
the emotional reality of feeling like people are slowly “giving up” on you
and ultimately, how he began rebuilding support systems that actually work for ADHD minds

We also talk about:

why ADHD is often misunderstood as laziness
the emotional weight of working memory overload
why traditional productivity tools fail many neurodivergent people
the importance of safe, supportive environments
and how thoughtful design can reduce cognitive overwhelm instead of adding to it

This conversation is deeply human.

Not just about ADHD—
but about what it feels like to keep trying when life feels harder than it “should” be.

And why understanding yourself changes everything.

If you’ve ever struggled with burnout, overwhelm, executive dysfunction, feeling misunderstood, or trying to rebuild your life while carrying invisible challenges…

this episode is for you.

To learn more from Tahir Finley:
https://www.instagram.com/adhdgameplan

Android:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.theanchor.todo.app

iOS:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/anchor-daily-to-dos/id6744028228

Follow Beyond the Mind on Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Okay. Hi, Tahir. So happy to have Tahir Finley here on the Beyond the Mind podcast. Tahir and I met at the Neurodiversion conference in Austin, Texas back in March, which feels like it was a while ago. But you know, I'm so excited to hear to have you on to talk about your journey, which I'm so fascinated. I heard a little bit and I'm excited to hear more on to the Neurodiversion Conference and as well as your company and your product that you have launched that's focused on supporting those with ADHD. So you're uh going to talk about ADHD game plan. Um thank you to hear. I just I I'd love to hear a little bit more, just start off hearing a little bit about your background.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Um yeah, so my background, I think, uh is representative of uh I think a lot of people's uh that have been light diagnosed. Um so for me, for the longest time, I did not could not believe that ADHD was real, was a real thing, that I had it. Um and so I think like a lot of people, life had to tell me that I had ADHD. Um, you know, otherwise I don't think you know I ever would have come to terms with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

So um I love that you um call that out because I you know I I address like my own little like stigma around ADHD and not knowing what it was. Um and yeah, I'm just curious from your perspective, like when did you first even hear about ADHD? Like, let alone ADHD as something you might have.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah, yeah. So um kind of a surprise twist. So my mom was a therapist and my dad was diagnosed while I was a kid. And so all growing up, my mom was telling me about ADHD. Hey, you have ADHD, hey, it's genetic, you know, you show some of the signs and you know, all this stuff. And um I didn't really because I didn't fit like the stereotype that's out there of you know, I have inattentive type. Um, and because I wasn't, you know, bouncing off the walls, a class clown, you know, couldn't keep still, all that stuff. Um I I was like, well, that's I think that's ridiculous. Because because I didn't, I didn't think I fit, you know, what ADHD quote unquote looks like. Um and so I pretty much dismissed it for most of my life. And um, you know, despite I think obvious signs that my mom saw and my dad saw that I didn't, um, you know, I was held back in kindergarten. I in fourth grade I tested gifted, and then by the seventh grade, I was falling behind and failing in school. Um, you know, I was struggling so hard by the time high school hit with homework and um just the schedule of it that uh of the schedule of school that I finally like humored my mom, my parents, I guess, and you know, was like, okay, you know, I'll you can take me to a psychiatrist. Um and went to a couple of different psychiatrists and they came up with different things. You know, one said you definitely have ADHD, and then the other one said, You definitely do not have ADHD, you have uh depression and um an undiagnosed or unspecified learning disorder. And now I know through doing my own research after I've been diagnosed that um those things are often um co comorbid uh with ADHD. Uh talking about depression.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Um you touched on something like super important, um, which was your type of ADHD. And so just so our listeners know, I mean, ADHD was previously called ADD, the hyperactivity was added later, and um as well as later, there was a uh clearer diagnosis of three patterns of ADHD, right? It's uh hyperactive, inattentive, and then combined type. Um so you said you were inattentive, and so it didn't look like the like traditional like what would you think that like when you think about the description descriptions right now? Um I don't know, like do you even know like would that be hyperactive or combined type? Because I feel like most people like we probably generally somewhere in the combined type, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Yeah, well, going back to my mind, you know, and I I do you know fidget and stuff like that, but you know, if I were to, you know, picture my mental image of ADHD, you know, growing up would be um, you know, that kid in class who's on Ritalin, who can't keep still, who is always bothering other people, who's always disrupting the class, who's always super funny and making funny jokes and making people laugh, and you know, super energetic all the time. And I was like not energetic at all. Um and you know, I there was it just felt like there was some kind of like invisible barrier or something holding me back. I remembered multiple times like having these screaming arguments with my mom saying, like, what the F is wrong with me? Like, I you know, just the staring at you know my my homework books, like my textbooks, trying to like just get the knowledge into my brain and like just being so frustrated with homework and not understanding why I have such a burning desire to do well, and it's just not happening. Um, and that was so so frustrating, and you know, but I never connected the dots and I never like listened to my mom. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Um so I just in the current I want I want to normalize you as a a kid for that, the not listening to your mom, because um I gotta say, like my my daughter had some health issues over the last two years, and um, she was supposed to do a lot of like yoga and meditation to help her. And I know when we would go to the doctor's appointments, like because I had studied a lot of that, you know, and they'd like look at me and I'm like, no, no, no, but she's still a child and I'm still her mother. Like I can't I can't be that role for her because I'm her mother, you know, like nobody no child really like, you know, it's just a we it's like a weird combination. So I'm sure the fact that your mom knew, yeah, the fact that she was your mom took precedence over, you know, probably for the child than her expertise in a certain field, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I feel like that's the way it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Man, all of the parents I think of ADHD kids, whether they have ADHD or not, I think deserve uh a medal of honor. It's it's tough, I think, on the kids and the parents. Um, so yeah, shout out to all the parents. It's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

Yeah, and and you were kind of it seems like you had this interesting experience because you knew a little bit about like like you it seems like you you heard it from her and you kind of could see it in the classroom, and then you could kind of see it in your dad, and you were like, these are this is not me, yeah. But what you said was so powerful, which is that you wanted to do so well, and you like sit in front of the books, and it felt like like inaccessible. Like, did it feel like you couldn't like reach it? Like you were just like because I feel like that's the metaphor that I've heard people talk about what it's like with ADHD. It's like a common theme is like trying to reach for something, and you're like, I don't I don't know how to get like I'm reaching, I don't know how to get it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah, feels far away. Yep. That's what I'm discovering now, and I can get into that a little later, but um post-diagnosis, learning how ADHD isn't um a uh deficit with of knowledge, it's a deficit of performance, of performing what you know. Um you know, so anyway, yeah, I was uh yeah, struggled throughout high school and just really frustrated. I went finally went to got get um, you know, diagnosed as a teenager and you know got conflicting diagnoses. Um one saying I absolutely didn't have ADHD, but um still uh was convinced by my mom to try medication and um was put on Stratera, which was pretty new at the time. Um, and the prescriber wasn't an ADHD specialist, didn't really know that much about um that that drug, and was basically prescribed a um a prescription that was too high. Um I think uh now hopefully most prescribers know and most patients know, you got to educate yourself um on medication, but you know, that's a medication that you have to ramp up over you know several months.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

And so they had you start on a red wow, pretty high dose.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

And so I was just zombified, you know, typical um story that a lot of people have with medication. I was just like, you know, complete brain fog and emotionless, and I could not stand it. I went to my mom and said, I I this is not working, I don't want to, you know, do this anymore. Um, I don't want to take medication. Um, and that that experience, unfortunately, this is a really common one as well. I hear this story a lot. Early poor experiences with medication from an unexperienced provider um can create an aversion to medication that lasts an entire lifetime. And I think that was really unfortunate because um now as an adult diagnosed uh person, and this is just my personal um experience with medication, is it is one of the most effective tools in my life uh right now. Um and you know, I kind of wish that maybe I had had a little bit more um patience as a teenager, even though that's like an oxymoron, but more like understanding with you know the medication side of things. And there's a whole lot of other treat um, you know, ADHD treatment stuff, regulation stuff um that I do now as well. But medication is definitely a big um tool for me.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Um do you mind if we talk about that a little bit more? Because I know medication is such a um it's kind of like it's like a touchy controversy controversial.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah, taboo, and it can be, honestly.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Um and I've had to work on my own relationship with like I would say medication overall for things that are like related to like mental health, and then the ADHD medication specifically, um, and I can I can just gosh, I I can um only imagine like how scary it was to get like a full dose of uh medication. I don't I only say that, I mean, and just so the listeners know, like um like in my experience, if I've gone like two weeks without uh like my medication, I I get nervous, I get anxious about oh gosh, I've gone so long without this full dose. How is now taking the full dose after just two weeks of like have having a break going to affect me? Like it makes me quite nervous for um, I guess that unknown of like, okay, when I take this, how is it, you know, it affect me? And and side effects can be used. So you getting a full dose on your first time without any like um step up to it obviously had a big effect on your your body.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Um and my brain, and it wasn't, I don't think it was the fullest dose, but it was, you know, I think started in like the middle. Like you're definitely supposed to start like you know, super, super low and then ramp up over a long time. Um I think it's something like six months or something like that is optimal. I I I don't remember, so that's take that as literal. So um something like that. And so yeah, it was yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

So how'd you like what how'd you um start opening up to even medication again? Like, did you try to work on things without the medication? Like, what did your journey with the medication things look like? Like, when did it start to turn?

SPEAKER_02 13:03

A long and and hard road between, you know, I was I think 12, maybe 13 years old and and 31 years old, trying to basically, like I said, life had to tell me, um, just trying to fight and you know, push harder against this invisible wall, um, and basically compensate um with you know, just with effort and you know, which is often a really common story with ADHD. And I used to play these mind games with myself, like, you know, I feel like I'm trying really, really, really hard, and I'm, you know, just achieving a fraction of what the effort feels like. Maybe I'm not like actually trying that hard. So I play these like brain, like mind games with myself, like, you know, okay, maybe I need to like, you know, this feels like a hundred percent, but maybe this is only like 40. Maybe I need to try, I need to push even harder. And then, you know, that just becomes a just a crazy cycle of just beating yourself down into the ground and these burnout cycles, and you know, something that I think every ADHD is familiar with of just I'm gonna grit my teeth and I'm going to, you know, just keep hammering, you know, just pouring pain and suffering into my life until something works, essentially. Um, as as you know, as as gritty as that sounds. Um, but it's reality for a lot of ADHDers. And so yeah, anyway, that's that was pretty much the story of my life after, you know, after that poor experience in medication. I said, you know, I don't have ADHD, I don't want medication, you know, I'm I'm going to, even if I have it, which I probably don't, I'm I'm just going to figure this out myself. And so it took me another, you know, however many years that is, um, between being a teenager and a 30-something year old to uh to actually come to a realization that um, you know, I need some uh it would be beneficial to take another look at this ADHD thing. And that was after, you know, trying to push through college. Um, you know, going on academic probation, like, you know, going through I went to music school first and I tried that. And, you know, then my dad got sick. I came back home and I went to community college and you know, fought through that and you know, basically almost failed out, and then pulled myself together and and you know, turned it around and started getting straight A's. Um, and then I decided to uh drop out of college and join the military because I felt like there was some discipline lacking in my life that I thought to that point it was like, oh, maybe nobody like taught me discipline. So maybe I need to go learn discipline, not knowing. Um, so I went to the military for a little bit, and that was, you know, actually, um, you know, I experienced less symptoms uh there in the military because really, yeah. Um the structure provided um, you know, kind of some executive functioning support that just I didn't have naturally. Um and even still I felt like there was a wall I was coming up against, and you know, I I was just the perpetual new guy in the military, no matter how long I stayed there. You know, I was always messing up, making mistakes, and you know, getting in trouble for things that I didn't mean to do, and you know destroying my reputation by accident and all this stuff and making bad first impressions and you know silly stuff. One time I one time we were at a a command function and I was receiving like a an award from a commander, you know, and I was like really happy. I was like, yes, I finally did something good. And I went up to to shake the commander's hand and take the coin, and I I saluted him with the wrong hand in front of the entire entire freaking base. Um and it was incredibly embarrassing. And I got in obviously a lot of trouble for that. So there were a lot of like, you know, snafus like that, um and that are so common with ADHD. And you know, he thought I was disrespecting him, of course. And uh, you know, tons of tons of stuff like that in the military. I won't get into it, but um, so I had a pretty I had a pretty like uh high-stakes job in the military, and I came to the decision at the end of my first enlistment that you know, hey, I don't want one of these little mistakes to ever endanger somebody's life um because I forgot some piece of equipment or like forgot to put a battery in something or something like that, and somebody was killed. I don't want to do that. So um I left the military feeling that okay, I can do more on you know the civilian side. And so then I got the military and that structure was gone. And yeah, I was not prepared for that. Um, not only the structure, like the the you know, executive structure, but the social structure was completely gone. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

And probably stuff with your like physical routine, physical fitness and routine.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yep. Which I'm guessing that was a big part of your life in the military, and then that was keeping me afloat, and I didn't know how to maintain that on my own. Um, and my life started going sideways at a bad breakup, and I was like, hey, I'm gonna just leave the country for a little bit. Um, and so I first went to Australia and then I got stuck there during COVID. So I stayed there for a year and um got fired for my job there and um kind of tooled around in Australia for a little bit, then went to Turkey and lived in Istanbul with my friend, and then came back to um where I live right now um in Washington and um did real estate. So, you know, typical ADHD, just bouncing around to every different, you know, 20 different career paths and not really, you know, knowing um just kind of I guess looking for something that would speak to me, you know, or something that kind of lit lights up that that passion, you know, just searching.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

So yeah. Did did you feel like um because I know for me, I always felt like if I could just find the right job for me, then all of these struggles will go away. Like I kept thinking it's it's the job or the hat that I'm wearing or it's the company or it's the thing. Like if I could just figure out the like the box that I'm supposed to go into, right? Like it'll all work out, you know, like that's the missing piece.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

We're always looking for like the missing piece, like what you know, what is what am I missing? You know, because this is not as hard for all these other people. So like there must be something I'm missing. So we're searching, searching for like, you know, what's what's this missing piece? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

But when I hear you talking about it's like you've it sounds like you followed your interests of like where it was leading, you know, and that's so important for us with ADHD. It's like our energy-based nervous systems, like we have to follow something that we're we're um so passionate about. And I don't think people understand because I know like uh when people try to put us into boxes because it's like, oh good, this is a good secure career for you, or this is a good safe path. You're like, but if I am not passionate about it, you will not compete, like I will physically be there, but I will not be there, you know. Like people don't understand that that is such an important part of it. So it sounds to me like you the what I'm impressed by when you're going through all this, I'm like, but you kept trying a variety of things um to try to learn and understand, which I admire because I'm like better than you know, like I was trying like kind of the same thing and just small different changes of settings. And I'm like, no, that's because there was a probably something bigger that needed to be explored, you know. And so did you feel like as you were going through those like variety of experiences that you were like starting to learn a little bit more about like where you naturally did well and then where you just like like kept you know hitting the struggle? Like, were you finding the pockets of strengths, I guess, with through these different experiences?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Uh absolutely to the yeah, to the first half of that, yes. Um, I was finding out things. I was more finding out things that I wasn't good at. That was both it was more patient. It was more like, you know, oh You know, after getting after leaving or getting fired from a few jobs, just realizing like, oh, okay, probably traditional employment isn't where I'm supposed to be. And that, you know, that wasn't a choice, I would say. I would say that was kind of a uh that was just a reality that I had to to face and come to terms with, and okay, now I gotta figure out what I'm gonna do. So that that's what led to, you know, real estate, okay, real estate agent. You can kind of like have a little autonomy, and you know, you're kind of you're responsible for your own income and you know, you're all this. Um, so that that appealed to me um at that time, and that was kind of a half step into what I'm doing now with entrepreneurship. Um and I basically I got burned out in real estate uh because it was hard, hard sales, like you know, cold calling, expired listings for sale by owners, people that hate realtors. You're you're as a realtor, you're calling people that don't like realtors, and you're basically, you know, it's it's just hard sales. And you know, if you know, one of the things that lights up the ADHD brain is challenge, and so I was attracted to that challenge, and it was um it was challenging. And uh, you know, I I think I grew a lot during that period, and also I I just got burned out dealing with other realtors. Um, you know, I didn't I I value authenticity a lot, and a lot of people I worked with um didn't, and so I you know, I was kind of tired of working in that um, you know, environment. Um and so then on a whim, I decided to take the money that some of the money that I earned in real estate and um just go become an entrepreneur. And I bought a truck, um a uh nine nine-car hauler, one of those uh 18-wheelers that carries carries a bunch of cars, and I started schlepping cars across the country, um, living out of my truck. Yeah, um, that was my first kind of real deal business. I had started like an online resume writing thing before that, but this was like my first, you know, um I'd say full in, you know, I'm going to make money with this or die trying. Like I'm going to make this this business. Um, and not as like a fun experiment, but as like this is my life direction now.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

And uh and it was really hard, and it was, you know, extremely harrowing. And I was out there by myself and it was extremely lonely. And uh and I ended up um making money with it with that um business. However, it I was so completely burned out, and it was not something at all interesting or passionate to me. Um, and it was just, you know, I I still I didn't know any of the ADHD stuff I know now, you know, about finding something that you know aligns with your passion and interest and um yeah sort of thing. And um, I still had this just grind hard push, you know, fight mentality. And so it it made money, but you know, at a certain point, I think it was about a year and a half in, I realized that the business wasn't scalable. Um, because if I were to hire a driver, it would take away all the profit.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

So okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

I couldn't buy another truck, I couldn't, you know, it was uh gonna work. So um it would just be a treadmill, you know, of uh of making money and then paying that right to the driver. So I realized I'm stuck now driving a truck and I can't um you know, I can't scale this. So I I decided to shut the business down after that, and I was just completely existentially burned out for months and just gassed and could not function. Um and at that was probably one of the lowest points of my life. I had to move um in with my stepmom in my stepmom's attic um to save money. Um, and I was lost again, you know, yeah. After all that learning that you were talking about, um, that you reminded me of all this, you know, the pathways of life that neurotypical people are always, you know, talk tell us like, oh, you know, it's so cool that you, you know, you've done all this interesting stuff and you're like a jack of all trades. And it's like we don't really have a choice, you know. A lot of the times if we're undiagnosed, we don't know what we're doing, like it's kind of like you know, not really a choice. And so, you know, I had gone through all this stuff and done all these things, and still after all this pushing and all this trying and all this, you know, all this harrowing work, I I was still now in my early 30s, lost and completely like you know, floating out in in life alone, essentially. I mean, not completely, thanks to my stepmom, but almost like you know, just completely clueless and lost. And I was like, How did this happen? How am I here? Um and and at that moment, one of the one of my family members, you know, when I was going through it, and it was just like huge gut punch um after I closed down this company. One of my family members that I was kind of relying on for um you know help and guidance um was like, Well, I don't, I don't, I don't get it. Like, what are you doing right now? Like, what are you doing? What you're you're just you're not getting out of bed? Like, I don't get are you lazy? Like, what is going on? This is my family member, somebody that like, you know, um I try I respect their opinion previously. And it was somebody that pretty much the only person that I was like relying on for guidance, and they're like basically, uh what are you doing? Are you lazy? And this is like at the moment, like the darkest moment of my life where I just like barely functioned, and somebody is just like uh it was it was indescribably like sucky, it sucked a lot.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

So um yeah, you know, I think so.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Anyway, just to wrap it up, that's when I decided to get diagnosed. You know, maybe I should take another look at this ADHD stuff.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

Well, it sounds like it was kind of a bit of a rock bottom, you know, because I I was gonna say that I think I feel like we when when we are like I don't know if this dialogue was in your head, but it it comes into my head when when like even in recent weeks where I'm like, shoot, I'm trying so much, and then something in life like just you know, it knocked me to my feet again, you know, like it's one of those things, and I feel like there's this internal dialogue that we have when we've like we kind of have to experience these struggles in just living and trying to figure out life. Um, for me, there's this internal thing that kind of says, like for the people who are supportive and like encouraging, it it kind of makes me feel like don't give up on me. Like don't oh gosh, here I'm on my feet again, like knocked on my you know, knees again.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

I hope people don't give up on me. Like like I knew I could pick myself back up, but that that worry like of the the the eyes that saw that I was trying would get frustrated and look away, like it was always there. You know, it still is like I'm gonna be honest, it's still, I mean, Michael's gonna see this, but like my editor, marketing strategist, but like while we've been partnering, there's been like hiccup after hiccup because our lives become messy in a part of um what happens with the undiagnosed neurodiversity, right? It's like it's almost like we we we build, we we get so used to the chaos because we never got that stable foundation. And then trying to get the stable foundation has this like depth of chaos that we have to like work extravate, right? You know, so it's a it's so much work that we're doing to try to give ourselves the stable foundation that we didn't have. And um I it's like your show, your story definitely, it's like, yeah, it's not, it's nobody's fault. Like it's not, it's not like you didn't have a parent that missed it, you had a parent that saw it, you know. But there's still so much unknown about these things. So to even from the medical field, so to try to get the help you need to build that stable foundation, it's a I don't it's just it's a lot, you know. I I feel like that's the thing. We're like the um we're like the iceberg, right? Where it's like what we what what we've done is like just the you only see the tip, you you don't see like all the skills that are like are being built in the trying.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah. Yeah, and there's so much trying. And you know, when we are, you know, especially in adult aged years, um, especially late diagnosed, we're so gritty. And one of the things I think that you know hurts the most is when what you're describing, when your family and the people around you stop supporting you, and it and you know, not maybe not explicitly, but you can tell in the way that they talk to you that they're just kind of like, okay, yeah, all right, cool. And like people just start to like, you know, just drift away and stop attention. And that's when it's you know, then it's it's on you, you know, to figure it out. And it's it's that is one of the most painful places to be. Um, and I think most ADHDs have been there multiple times where you know, pretty much everybody um has I don't want to say given up on them, but just kind of lost interest in, you know, ever seeing anything happen with this person. Um and it is our responsibility throughout all of that to keep the flame alive in ourselves, and you know that, especially when you don't know what's going on, is one of the most painfully difficult things. Um you know, in and it's so lonely and it's so like you know, because it it's literally you have to figure all this stuff out, and you know, and in most cases people aren't you know going to really help you, um, unless they're ADHD years and they know and they're kind of like, you know, there's that's why getting a diagnosis is so such a such a important starting place um and and the self-education. Um because yeah, after I got into diagnosed, it's been it's been a learning process um since then. Yeah, last couple years that yeah, incredible growth.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Yeah, I I feel like the other part of it is like um rebuilding with like to me the word that I always use is just safe, safer community, but it's not to say that somebody's not safe, it's just like does it feel like I was I was just giving an example where um with my marketing strategist, it's been a couple weeks where I'm like, oh, I I'm dropping the ball on what I'm like supposed to be handing over. So like the urge is like don't give up on me. Oh my gosh, I'm I'm I'm getting through this hurdle, don't give up. But one thing I've been kind of watching for is I've been like re like like being more, I think, intentional about like who um is in more of like my day-to-day or like business stuff, like creating that environment safe for me is like like having a partnership where like when we establish the partnership, um like that we talked a lot about like trauma, the stuff I teach, the challenges, the hardships that I have, the stuff that I will not be good at, you know, like don't even ask me to do it, like I'm not gonna do it, you know, like it's not even gonna be so it was good to have those kinds of like conversations so that there wasn't um like so that the like the partnership could be more clear and up front, you know, off the bat. But the nice thing is is that like I have this urge to do that, don't give up on me. Um he's been a great partner. And so like watching um me continue to work on the business through the struggles, that's the feedback, you know, that I get when I meet with him from these, like you're still working on it. Come on, you're still making progress, you know. And I'm like that, that actually just gives me the relief to be like, oh, that's in my head that don't give up on me. That's that's that old worry, that's that past the thing, that's this like internal insecurity. Um but but that I think really we have to be conscious of like who, whether they know neurodiversity or not, is like a supportive person in your life that they can be like when somebody is struggling is not the time to be like, you know, like wait, like sweat their wait until they're like, yeah, because that's the thing, it's like you've picked yourself back up every time. And I think that's the thing with us. It's like like um the hard work to like pick yourself back up is being done, but the output doesn't show in the way that we're used to measuring it in life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

It's like that's that's the part the visible part is yeah, it's so it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yeah, it is well, and the yeah, a lot of that invisible piece of the iceberg that you were talking about earlier is just an invisible fight, you know, sometimes almost every day to just you know get back up, okay, you know, or even the little like day-to-day, just you know doing dumb things by accident and trying not to get embarrassed or trying to like ignore like the you know the subtle social changes in you know social temperature that your little little mistakes cause, or just doubting yourself because you don't even know like if you did something, did I say something wrong? Did I do something awkward? Like, you know, all these little things. Um, or you know, try not to beat yourself up when you forgot the thing in your car again. Or, you know, it's that those things, those little things happen every single day. And it's like even even if you're well regulated, you're on medication, you know, you're taking care of your, you know, um your your state and you're treating your ADHD, you know, those things still are going to happen. They're they happen, they've happened through your whole life, they're happening, and they're gonna happen for the rest of your life. And is like that, I think is one of the things that makes us so resilient is that you know, we're basically wading through quick quicksand or you know, waiting through mud every day of our lives, trying to like stay, you know, positive and on the up and up, you know, while we like make little mistakes all the time. Yeah, it's uh it's not easy and it's not fun. I think if I don't know if any neurotypical people watch this, but it's like it's uh you know, the kind of outer um image of ADHD in pop culture until I think pretty recently has been kind of this, oh I'm just like forgetful, silly sometimes, and you know, blah blah blah. It kind of like a light, fun thing. And I would say it is anything but at least for me, that's been my experience. Um not very fun. Well made me better.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

I wanna um I wanna I wanna touch on that and switch to uh ADHD game plan because uh you recognize something so important about what's happening to some to um someone's like internal state, like when they're living with um either diagnosed or undiagnosed ADHD and they're trying to move forward. And I think a lot of people don't realize that you know, a lot of what like um maybe what somebody might feel if they're like overwhelmed in a situation like at an airport trying to make phone calls, like juggling kind of like a bunch of stuff, and they like get really overwhelmed and say, just give me a moment, I need to think, you know, to finish whatever they're doing on their phone call. That overwhelm is like a lot of our internal states all the time. And so it affects how we um can learn things and uh get support. And I I I want to talk about ADHD game plan because I know when I was learning about it, um your thoughtfulness to uh how easy is it for somebody to like make it get onto this app and make it actionable, like was was super clear. So I want to see if you could talk about ADHD game plan, but um you know the element that I'm talking about most is is the part where you you had talked about like um kind of like the onboarding, like the cognitive load that yeah someone's faced with, right, when they first try like a support product. Um yeah, love if you could tell us a little bit about your journey into creating ADHD game plan.

unknown 40:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

So 100%. Um, so that was something that overwhelm that you're describing is um, you know, during that period after I shut down the trucking company was something that um I was experiencing pretty heavily. And you know, ADHD symptoms go like this throughout our lives with periods where they're really prevalent and they're really sometimes when um they're a little less. So this was a period of my life where ADHD symptoms were really like a lot, and um I was constantly overwhelmed, had a lot of stuff that I had to do, I had to figure out how like my literal life path forward, and I didn't know where I was gonna start. I have to feed myself, you know. I luckily I have shelter, but that was you know through the grace of a family member. But um so I was basically extremely overwhelmed. And so what I found was I was as I was looking for solutions, typing in ADHD app or you know, productivity app or something just to keep my thoughts straight, because I had already tried all the you know planners, calendars, uh millions of different, you know, productivity tools and systems, and none of that stuff worked for me. And same thing with all the apps I was trying. It was like when you're in that state and that you're talking about where you there's just it's just too much stuff in your head. There's just you know, there's just too much to to function, to do anything, and you're looking for solutions and you pull up an app that you know is extremely useful and would be really beneficial if you were well well regulated and in a perfect state to set up you know the system and learn it, or you know, address all of these, you know, little bells and whistles that are really useful in this app, they're useless to you if you're stressed out and overwhelmed. Yeah, you literally you you pick it up, you're like, oh wow, this would be really helpful, but it's too overwhelming right now. You're adding you like my bandwidth is like this, you know. I can't fit learning a new complicated thing um in right now. And so as I was looking for a tool to help me in that moment, I found it didn't exist. And um, and I was just like, I just need, I feel like I'm just completely, you know, out in space, you know, frustrated, overwhelmed, disorganized, with no kind of like thing to anchor me in the sea of life. I just feel like I'm drifting right now. Yeah, and it was and everything's chaotic and is chaos and it sucks. And I need help, I need a tool. And so that thought was pressing in my mind, and I was like, okay, I need a tool. Well, there's nothing out there, so I'm just gonna ignore it for now. And so, but I need to move forward. So, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna okay, as a stepping stone to the next thing in my life, I will learn web design. I'll do web design for a while. Because I'm I'm good at what I'm good at designing, I'm a very artistic person. I blow up designers out of the water. Um, I'm, you know, that's like one of my strong suits that I just always kind of ignore. So I was like, well, maybe as I'm getting diagnosed, I'm starting to learn these things. Maybe I should do something that's aligned with like what I'm good at and what lights my brain up. So I was like, okay, I'll do web design for a start. I was learning web design. I was using this awesome tool called Figma. Thank you, Figma, you rock. Um so much, such a great tool. Um, I was learning how to do it, how to use this design tool in this web design course. And I, as I was learning it, learning how to use it, I realized wait a minute. I could design the app that I needed and still need in this in this software, in this design tool. And it's it would work for that. And so I started playing it with that as like a side project while I'm learning web design. And that eventually my brain kind of drifted away from web design and towards this when it started to become oh, I could actually like start doing research on uh you know YouTube university of like how to make an app, you know, and like I could take some of the money from that made for the trucking company and I could actually like you know hire a contractor to to code this up because I don't know how to code. Um, I could actually make this thing, I can make the tool that would help people and help me. You know, selfishly, I was like, I need this thing, like bad.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

Um, especially because if you have the design skill, because I don't think people understand like valuable good design is in the whole experience, you know, right? I I don't have that skill, and so I've always relied on the a good partner. Um, and I know when I found a good partner who like like amazing at design, you're like, wow, that's what that can do. You know, it's such a valuable skill.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

I will die on this hill. Visual design is a core um core feature of any product that is used by ADHD or and I will, you know, I want to put that on my freaking tombstone. That's like it's so important that things are visually appealing, and that's why you know it's such a hard sell. Um, and I I don't even try to sell it um to people that don't have ADHD. Um, but I've heard so much feedback from neurotypical people on my app right now that you know I don't like you're spending so much time making it like pretty. Um, you know, what spend like it needs more features, put more features in it. And I'm like, you you guys don't get it. Like this is the opposite of what we need. We need less features, we need more intuitive, and we need more juicy, you know, dopamine rewards, you know, pretty colors, optic feedback. You know, we need it to be like, you know, vibrant and you know, something that lights our brain up. And we don't need more features, we don't need all this stuff. The value of this is the visual design. And when you pick it up, that it feels like a breath of fresh air. You know, that is the that's the value in it, is the simplicity, intuitiveness, and the the enjoyment of using it. You know, it shouldn't feel like an organizational tool. At least this is for me. Some ADHDs actually do great with planners and calendars. I am so freaking jealous of those people, and I love them, and I'm extremely jealous of them. I can't do it. And so I was like, I need a tool that feels like a toy or a game, you know. I can't use something that feels dry and like left brain or whatever the one is that you know is like boring, and you know, I just will not use it, I won't stick with it. And so I've started, and it's it's a long way, it's a long ways away, but I've started on the process of making the tool that finally sticks for AHD years, and I got a lot of cool ideas, and I can't wait to uh for this snowball to get rolling, which it's slowly starting, um, you know, so I can get some professionals on board. You know, I can't wait to hire a professional designer, uh UI UI UX designer. Um, can't wait to expand my team. But um, yeah, this app is gonna be, you know, it's gonna be pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

So tell tell us more about ADHD game plan. Like who's that?

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah, so this that's actually just the name of uh my Instagram that I came up with on like in 30 seconds, just happened to stick with. Um the app itself is called Anchor. Um and what it is is um it's a basically a prosthetic for working memory. Um, it's a super simple, fun, intuitive um to-do list, essentially. And all I did was I took two systems that worked decently well for me um and digitized them. So I took the Eisenhower matrix, um and which I think uh a lot of ADHDers have heard of uh because of Jessica McCabe, uh, I think did a video on it. And um it's basically a um a pretty simple way to categorize tasks. Um so I tried to dumb it down, make it even simpler, still more work to do on that, but try to make it as simple as possible and combine it with um the do now and do later list and basically just put those together and a digital um thing and into an app. So um that's what it is right now. It's um it's basically allows you a way to um, in the simplest way possible, have your tasks organized and categorized for you, um and extremely easy to save them, extremely easy to reference them, um see them at any time. Um we're working on a widget, uh like a home screen widget, um, where you can just you know just see it on your home screen all the time. Um, but basically you have immediate access to all of the things you have to do. And on a second separate page, you have the active list of just the tasks that you want to focus on, like today. Yeah. Um, so you don't get overwhelmed. And but you also have all of the the big list of all your tasks saved always on a different page. You can always reference and add more, you know, as you complete them, um, and everything is organized in a safe place for you. So, you know, this is what I really needed. Um, and you would be so surprised. One of the um one of the coolest things I've learned um from using anchor myself uh for the past year, because I I literally just made it for me, and now I'm learning, I'm you know, making it conform to help more people. But um, one of the things that I've learned from using it um over the past year is that um your what you were talking about earlier, the mental load actually carrying all the round all the tasks around in your brain takes so much energy. And it's so it's so anxiety inducing because the we've lived through so many experiences where we've forgotten a thing and the the doom is coming and it comes out of nowhere, like the consequence, you know, and it jumps up and bites you, and you're like, oh my god, I forgot now, you know, some catastrophe is happening. And that combined with trying to keep all these things straight in your mind at once and not knowing, oh my god, like when is the you know, when's the thing coming that's gonna, you know, snipe me, the thing that I forgot, that takes a toll, like a heavy toll. And one of the things that I realized just using it, just the act of having it in a safe place that's not in your head, takes so much of the anxiety away, so much the mental load, just not even like you know, not even referencing it sometimes, just having it out of your head somewhere where you know you can always see it, and you know there's nothing bad coming um that you forgot about is I mean, it's invaluable to me. And you know, the difference between keeping it in your head and and you know, somewhere like you know, in a list or uh in an app is is um it's a relief, you know.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yeah. Well, and I I really like how you are intentional about who you're building for, because you know, like to somebody who um maybe doesn't have that like over load that comes. I don't know, I kind of I wonder. I I feel like with um a lot of us neuro neurodiverse, like I think we we're sensitive to that load, like to the overwhelm to all of that, like to the what happens to us with when an app has so many different features because we can feel it, like we can feel it in our capacity.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

I mean, I just have an assumption that like it's actually affecting everybody the same way. It's just that we're more sensitive to feeling it, you know. And that's why a lot of people who aren't sensitive to it, they like keep going on to the same app and the same thing, and they're like, Oh, why am I so tired or why am I so cranky, you know, after I'm on my phone for an hour, and you're like, because a lot of the apps are really overwhelming, you know, and you get off of them and you're like, you're frazzled, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yeah, especially for us, we we get frazzled just working through all the friction of a lot of these things. Like, you know, it's it's it's like technology is like a man, it's like a daily marathon sometimes with all the you know, all the fiddly little things you gotta like work through. Um, and I think a lot of AD cheers often sound, I don't want to be ages, but sound like like cranky old men, like oh, this technology is you know so true, so true.

SPEAKER_03 53:46

And um, so I'm trying to make anti no, I get it, and I appreciate that you said the cranky old men, because when I'm sitting with my kids and there's something and they're like, just select this, and I'm like, where's the button? You know, like the where's no I feel like that. I'm like, why do I sound like I'm such an old woman? Yeah trying to, but I but I get so frustrated when I'm like it's not intuitive, you know, it's not intuitive. Like, so now I gotta go figure out where this thing is, you know, like on a tiny little screen. Like it's just so frustrating. Yeah, um, so I love that. I I uh and I actually I uh appreciate what you said about working memory because I think that's the other thing is that like um understanding like where we could really give gift ourselves some relief through like apps and just knowing what's meant for us. Like um I think learning to not keep things in my brain that like my working short-term working memory is like not that great. And just think like if it if it's a short-term thing, like it needs to go on a piece of paper or it needs to go on an app, you know, like because I will not remember it uh even an hour later, right? And so just being able to gift yourself that like I don't have to retain this thing that I'm because this memory is is just not that strong yet, you know. Yep, it takes such a huge refund.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

I still, I mean, even after a year of using it, I have ideas, you know, that I I think of in the car in the shower that I'm like, oh I'll remember that. And you know, it's it's and then it's gone forever. Um, and that's why one of the features that um is planned for for anchor is is having a lock screen voice record, um, so that you're just going around your day and you can just like you know, hey, remember to get a haircut or yeah, content idea. Um, I can't tell you the number of content ideas I've lost over the past few months. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 55:46

But uh I know um in my home it's a an area we need to work on. So I'm gonna download an anchor. And um I like that you've talked about how engaging it can be and really prioritizing like the dopamine and like the usability of it. Because at the end of the day, like capturing our to-do list isn't really that beneficial if the to-do list doesn't get done, right? If we're not actually like using it to like go through what's next and make progress in our lives, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:14

All these and this is one of the things that drives me off the wall is like all of these social media apps and you know, um, I can't think of other examples right now because my working memory is really limited, but um, you know, there's so many companies out there that have you know extreme interest in holding your attention and our attention. And we're we as ADHDers are especially susceptible to it. And um we have such a hard time, you know, holding a habit. And I use I that is a four-letter word for me. Um, but you know, using tools consistently when you know the technology is there to hack your brain into using something consistently. You know, I use Instagram every day. Um, and it's not, you know, it's not because I'm making myself do it, it's because it's juicy to my brain, and I have to stop myself from using it because it's so enticing, you know, that you have to like consciously like put it down. Now my goal and vision for this app is to bring that that same, and it's it's not there yet, and it's you know, it's still far way off, but I want to bring those same, you know, things that Instagram's got a you know team of a hundred people working in a lab trying to figure out how do we get these suckers to stay on this thing longer. I want to get you know, use that technology and stick it into the something that is going to actually benefit people. And you know, because the technology is there. We're we're finding out like how to make things enticing to our brain. Um, and I want to stick that into something where you don't even have to try um to use it every day.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Oh, I love that. Yeah, I love the mindfulness to it to make sure that like as you're pulling people in, it's adding value back into their lives, you know, not um not simply like engagement metrics for the engagement metric part, like their the value is um I want to make it fun.

SPEAKER_02 58:41

I want to make it, you know, fun to use, enjoyable, and and you know, yeah, it's uh there's so there's too much dreary, dull stuff in the world, you know. It's a little ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

Well, that's kind of a great note to for us to close out on because um I think just knowing that I do have that perspective that went into when you were designing it makes us you know even more excited to try out Anchor. So I know in the show notes I'm gonna put um uh the links probably to your Instagram, um, which ADHD game plan, and then uh where can people find Anchor? And I'll I'll drop the notes in the Apple store.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

It's in it's in the Android and and Apple uh iOS app stores. Um the SEO uh or the you know the ranking where the app is is not um it's not really visible at right now um because I've been spending all my time doing social media and not um app store optimization. So um you'll probably have to click a link to find it, or I'll go in with a lot of um you know boating voting apps that you know tell you where yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 59:53

So we'll put the we'll put the the link to it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Phenomenal. And if you like it, drop five star. Um that helps it make more uh you know reach more people. Um but yeah, really appreciate it. This has been really fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:10

Yeah, this has. Thanks so much to here. Thank you for coming on. Um and uh I know I'll follow up with you to make sure that people who want to reach out to you directly can as well as guess those show notes. Um, but yeah, this has been really fun. I'm so excited for um to try out anchor, for our audience to try out Anchor, and just for all the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Thanks so much. Thanks for your work as well. Um I'm loving your comments.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

I'm gonna go ahead and hit stop recording. Let's see.