Social Accessibility, Disability, and Designing a World That Works

Episode Description

In this episode of Accessibility in Practice, host Adam Fishbein sits down with Peter Slatin, a longtime advocate, writer, and trainer in the disability and accessibility space. Drawing on his lived experience as a blind person and his background in journalism, architecture, and hospitality training, Peter offers a wide-ranging and deeply thoughtful conversation about what accessibility really means, and why social and cultural barriers are often the biggest obstacles of all.

From the difference between physical, digital, and social accessibility to the challenges of disclosure in the workplace, Peter challenges listeners to rethink common assumptions and move beyond compliance toward genuine understanding and respect.

What You Will Find in This Episode

• Peter Slatin’s personal journey into disability and accessibility work
• Why social accessibility is often the most overlooked—and most important—form of access
• The difference between being “included” and already belonging
• How physical and digital accessibility are connected to cultural attitudes
• Common misconceptions about disability and how they show up in everyday interactions
• Why “helping” without asking can be harmful
• Disability as the most intersectional dimension of diversity
• Practical steps organizations can take to create more accessible workplaces
• The tension between civility, advocacy, and picking your battles
• How allies can find their strengths and contribute meaningfully to disability rights
• Accessibility technology Peter is excited about—and why “nothing about us without us” still matters
• Examples of organizations making real progress in accessibility, especially in hospitality

Key Takeaways

• Accessibility is not one-size-fits-all—and it never has been
• Designing for accessibility from the start is far easier than retrofitting later
• Cultural attitudes toward disability shape every other accessibility outcome
• People with disabilities do not need permission to be “included”—they already belong
• The most effective advocacy starts with listening, humility, and lived experience

About the Guest

Peter Slatin is a blind accessibility advocate, writer, and trainer with decades of experience across journalism, architecture, and hospitality. He works with organizations to improve customer service, workplace inclusion, and cultural understanding of disability, with a particular focus on social accessibility. He is based in New York.

About the Host

Adam Fishbein, MPA is a disability policy and advocacy professional committed to advancing inclusive systems and practices. He is based in Maryland.

Call to Action

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review the Accessible Community podcast. Share this episode with colleagues, friends, and anyone interested in building a more accessible world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Accessibility and Practice Accessible Community, where we talk with people shaping a more accessible world. I'm Adam 55, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Peter Slate, a leading voice in disability and accessibility. Thanks so much for being here, Peter.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Thank you, Adam. I'm so happy to be here and to be part of this. I'm really excited for it. Yeah, so let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Uh first off, can you tell us a bit about your background and what drew you into the field of disability and accessibility?

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Well, uh sure. I'm a blind man. Um I've gone slowly blind over the course of my life. I'm 71. Uh I have both retinitis pigmentosa, which destroys your night vision and also your peripheral vision, and I have macular degeneration, which I got in my 40s, which destroys your central vision. So I now see thousands, hundreds of thousands, billions of lights flashing in front of my eyes all the time. And um, I do have some light perception. I got into accessibility as a profession only about um not even 15 years ago. I worked as a journalist for most of my career and wrote not only occasionally did I write about accessibility and disability, um, but I wrote more mostly about architecture uh and urban design issues and commercial real estate and finance, all relating to the built environment. Um and so I got to occasionally explore accessible design, universal design, whatever you want to call it. Um but then in 2012, I just an opportunity arose for me to dive fully into this world. Whereas before I'd always said uh I didn't want to be a professional blind person, that is, make my living as a person who is blind because I'm blind. Um I completely reversed course and said, you know, I'm happy to uh be part of that. And I'm gonna uh hear a siren in the back because I'm in New York City.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Well, that's that's really interesting to hear. So I mean, not the siren, the uh story. Um okay, so it sounds like you um you kind of you had that reversible, of course. Um so would you say that was the particular moment that uh that kind of shaped your journey and that uh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

I I mean I basically um you know I had as a journalist and and I founded and ran a magazine and a website and we won editorial awards, etc. And I traveled all across the US and uh globally, tracking down stories, writing down stories, finding writers' interesting things, et cetera. Um, and I was always, you know, as a blind person, really upset and annoyed at um the way I was treated by people in customer service, whether it was at an airport, in a taxi, at a hotel, a restaurant, a store. And I I thought, why isn't there a program to train these folks how to interact with people with disabilities? And then one day I was trying to go into a store where I'd been before, a big store, like a grocery store, and I had my guide dog, and uh and on previous visits uh they'd assign me to a human to guide us through the store so I could get what I needed. Well, on this occasion, uh they said, I'm sorry, we've we spoke to our lawyers, or our our lawyers spoke to us and said, You are a liability and we can't let you in. Oh my god. Yeah. And uh I'll name names. The store was Italy, um the huge, wonderful. I know Italy. Wow. And I just I just you know flipped out. Was very unpleasant. And um made an appointment to go visit their um head of HR the next day. Or maybe it was, yeah, I think it was HR, head of training, whatever. And I went to their offices and I spoke to them and I said, you know, I've long wanted to develop a program to train people in customer service about service to people with disabilities. And because I definitely didn't want this to be just about blind people, uh, but to run the gamut. And um they were interested, but not really, and I knew I wouldn't get any money. So I went off and sat about set about designing a program that I could use. I'm not an educator, I'm not a trainer, but I am blind and I have experience, I write, I think. So I created a program that I thought would work in the settings I envisioned it in. And I took that to the owner of a uh CEO of a hotel company I'd known for years, and and said, This is what I'd like to do. What do you think? And he said, Send me a proposal. And so I got off to a good start. That's great a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Okay, so it sounds like you uh you have a pretty pretty impressive background in disability and accessibility. Um so based on that experience, you know, are there any particular myths or misconceptions about disability and accessibility that you find yourself always correcting?

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Um I think there are there are many. You know, I I break the world into, I break the the world of accessibility into um three elements, three foundations, however you want to call them. Um, and that is how I approach what I do. You know, we all are familiar with the physical accessibility, um, how to design places, um, the built environment to be fully accessible, and that is the biggest change we've seen because that of course started in 1990. And um, you know, people are familiar with that, whether they really want to deal with it or not, but um it's out there, it's mostly well understood. Um, then there's digital accessibility, meaning websites, um apps, uh anything media related, um, videos, movies, uh you name it. What how do you make this digital material accessible so that uh someone who is print disabled, um which can be anyone who is blind, or someone who is dyslexic or ADHD, or uh you name it, has has a condition that makes it difficult for them to read. Uh has uh mobility uh a digital dexterity issue with um manipulating a mouse or whatever on a computer. So digital accessibility is a real thing, and even though it is still even though it's been talked about for decades now, it is still really misunderstood um by people in the web design and and uh development world. Um it is uh because it's a complicated thing, um, but there are ways to design a website or whatever you design so that it is fully accessible. And you know, just like it's it can be expensive to take a building that was built before 1990 and retrofit it to be accessible, um it's so much easier to do it from the start. And the same is true with web design. So that's digital accessibility, and that's a big work in progress. But I call what I do social accessibility. Uh someone said it was cultural accessibility, I'll go with that too. But because I'm not an architect and I'm not a coder or developer, but I am very much in the world, and I believe the biggest barrier to accessibility, to full integration of people with disabilities into society is social, more than physical, more than digital, because it precedes everything. If we understand disability as just another way of living, rather than all these other things, like meaning you're you're broken or you're ill or you're pitiable or you know, low expectations you can't achieve. Um if we have a society that accepts disability as a natural and normal way to be that can be improved upon, you can that needs accommodation, all that can be met, but then we can start to see design, the world of design, whether it's digital or physical, make accommodations from the start rather than have to rethink everything later.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Yeah, being proactive rather than reactive.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you. Uh I want to go back to your question, which led into my long disquisition, but one of the most difficult thing things that happens, I think, for any person with any disability, any um certainly with apparent disabilities, um, is physical touch from other people. Other people always want to help me, and so they will grab me without thinking, they'll push me and pull me. And of course, if if I can say use your words, you know, tell me that the chair is behind me, don't push me into it, you know. But and this can be on a scale that's anywhere from annoying and humiliating to very dangerous. Um, so it's something to be aware of. Yet I do know that um people for people who um use ASL, who uh speak ASL, uh, and for deaf people in general, touch is is an important thing. Um, so it's not the same for everybody, but I know for for me, for my friends who are wheelchair users, they often find that someone interferes with them physically. So yeah, I'd say that's that's a a very um fulsome uh illustration of or uh of what is in the way, what gets between someone with a disability and participating in society.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, so I just want to uh I want to follow up on one thing you said. So it's what you were saying, like accessibility isn't one size fits all, right? So so how do you see how do you see things like race, gender, or economic status or other kind of intersecting um identities interacting with the stability?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Well, this is a wonderful question because you know, in our um theoretically broke woke environments where nobody we we don't want to think about diversity and gosh, it's terrifying to to think about diversity. Um of course, you know, I I used to say that accessibility and disability were the poor stepchildren of the DEI movement, because the DEI movement grew out of race and gender um discrimination. Uh and then just grew from there and um accessibility became something of an afterthought. And did it belong there? Did it not belong there? But the truth is accessibility, disability itself is the most intersectional of all of these things that make up a diverse world. Um it's it doesn't care for age, it doesn't care for race, for gender, for sexual orientation, for um uh religion, right? You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

It it just doesn't it doesn't disability doesn't discriminate. And that's that's what I've always kind of said and heard, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

And so does this mean that it is uh not about diversity? No, it doesn't because diversity uh because we haven't as a flip as a society really come to the point where we accept people with disabilities fully into the workplace, into the social environment. Um you know, the stats on unemployment for people with disabilities are just um are huge. And I'm I want to say something about 30% of people with disabilities have some kind of employment.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Um I believe it's actually less. I yeah. I don't know the latest statistics, but uh so don't hold me to that.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

But but I think that's in the ballpark. You know, so of course we we know that when people with different points of view and different life histories, different um cultures and races and um all kinds of differences get together, they are going to produce more interesting um products, more interesting uh services, more interesting approaches to business um and to any other organization. They're going to enhance an organization rather than um uh distract from it or or or um subtract from it. And there's so much fear about that from the normative status quo. And uh, you know, we're living with that fear extremely um out there right now, uh doing its best to shout, go away people with disabilities, or black people, or people of anything that's not white, cisgender male, please go away. To me, it's just that's just the last gasp. Um it may be a very long and painful last gasp. This is not to dismiss it, but in the end, I think that will that will not be the way society is.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Um yeah. So let's uh let's zoom in a little bit. Okay. So thinking about kind of policy and best practices. What are some really tangible things that you wish every organization would do to build a more inclusive environment and more accessible environments?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

I would ask them to look at their make sure their website is fully accessible, make sure their space is fully accessible, help make sure that their employees with disabilities feel safe disclosing. You know, disclosing is always difficult because if you don't disclose that you have a disability but you need an accommodation, um, but you try and hide it or pass with a, you know, whatever you want to call it, um, you're gonna your performance will suffer. On the other hand, there's a good reason that people don't disclose, which is they fear discrimination, ignorance, you know, most most discrimination stems from ignorance, from fear, from you know, uh fear of being, oh, I don't want to be like that. Oh, and when people say, Oh, it's must be horrible to be blind, or they ask, which is worse to be blind or deaf, or you know, these questions. Yeah. Um, but I think they have to look within, and then they can look without and you can create that like I see uh just a spreading ripple. You know, if you start with your yourselves and your own company, and you look at the bottom and the top, and you and you engage in honest conversation, uh, you know, this I don't want to be too Pollyanish, but you have to look at your employees, then look at your vendors and look at your customers, and how can you make make things inclusive? And what is inclusion about? You know, I have my own issue with the word inclusion because getting back to my earlier points about living we're all living normally, um if someone wants to include me, what right do they have uh to include me? I'm here already. I'm included, so when why are you deciding to include me when you can certainly decide to exclude, but I can still be included if if I insist on it. And inclusion is to me, it's it's just a way of reaffirming the um the privilege, reaffirming privilege.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Not all barriers are created equal.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

This is true, and you you raise a really good point, and you know, um I guess the question comes down to how do you want that credit to be allocated, to be given, to be shown? Um and how do you want not to um exploit it? Um or if you feel like you can exploit it, when is it okay to exploit it? When is it not okay to exploit it? Do I use my privilege to pre-board a plane because I have a guide dog? Yes, I do. Um do I absolutely have to? No, I don't. But I appreciate the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

That's a good example. Yeah. Okay, so um so speaking of kind of the the interpersonal aspect of uh and like criminate and kind of how how we use how we um kind of interact with our disabilities, what advi and and people around us, what advice do you have for people with disabilities or their advocates as they navigate a world that often doesn't understand what they're going through?

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Wow, this is a great question. And I will say what one of my professors, my I'll say it, my painting professor said in um when I was taking classes to earn a Bachelor of Fine Arts in painting, when I had much more vision, I was still already legally blind, but I love painting. And she said to the class, she said, Do as I say, not as I do. And I say that because I have a very hard time um when someone uh acts out in a way that is upsetting because I have a disability um that somehow makes me feel diminished, um humiliated, whatever. I try to control my rage. Um but So in other words, my advice is um just let it ride over you and try to explain where you are, or just say, Yeah, well, you're wrong. Do do something that just shows that you are in control of yourself in the situation rather than flipping out and screaming at them because they are, you know, ignorant, foolish, bigoted people, yes. Um, which is not to say you have to be all you know like the nicey nicy person. You can be, you know, nasty, but do it without you know uh screaming. But I, you know, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna digress. I just recently heard a a discussion uh about you know, that there are people who are urging, you know, we must be civils. They're urging civility, which is what I just did. But then someone said, well, civility is the tool of the privileged to control the underprivileged, the those the a tool for the the those who have it have whatever to control people who don't but want, you know. So if I can say, well, you have to be civil, don't get all angry. So I just told everyone to be civil, and I'm not gonna say forget it, don't be civil, just be smart, I guess I'll say. Yeah. Be attuned to the situation.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Pick your battles. I think picking your battles is also part of that. That's kind of a subset of it. Okay. Um, so speaking of kind of uh being smart and uh trying to figure out how to pick your battles, for listeners who want to make a difference, what's one thing they could do to start supporting disability rights and better access?

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Well, I'd say whether you have a disability or or you want to be an ally, think about where your strength is. What what do you love to do? How do you love to relate to people? Um where do you think you can add to the discussion, whether it's around education, whether it's around web disability, web, you know, digital accessibility, whether it's around um physical access to some to spaces and design, um, or whether it's about social interaction, about um helping people to learn more about disability and more about accessibility. Find what is your strength? Where do you where where do you think you can have the most impact with the least amount of um just excess energy? So you can put your energy to work fruitfully. Um, that's what I'd say. Think about and think and you can do that, you can also think about um who do you know in your family or your friends and colleagues? What experience do you have of disability that you can um from someone else that you can say, oh, I you know, I learned something from listening to my uncle talk about his deafness or uh something like that. What can you bring to the table that brings your perspective but also acknowledges theirs and then built on it? Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, even I'm sorry, if if you're an attorney or um a uh an activist or whatever, and you want to get involved in policy, that's you know, and you feel like you have not only an understanding of the law or want to get an understanding of the law, but you also have uh the gift of persuasion, and you feel like you can really help advocate for whatever, whether it's um accessible transportation, um accessible spaces, accessible uh uh braille literacy. Um where do you see yourself bring bringing the biggest and best self?

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, well that's a good one. Um okay, so switching gears a little bit. Uh let's talk about tech for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

What innovations are you genuinely excited about in terms of improving accessibility? And are there underrated low-tech solutions you think deserve more attention?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, great question. Um I'm well, I love screen readers. You know, I just love them because they are my key to the world, you know, as a writer, as a reader, um, God, with but without them, you know. And since I didn't learn Braille until I was 60 and my braille reading is very slow, that's just wonderful to have those that availability. I'm so what I'm excited about is there are a few things. Um I'm actually excited to watch how uh things like meta glasses develop. Um I know people who love them. I tried them once. I'm not sure yet, but maybe at some point, you know, they'll be what I want. Um I love that people are uh trying hard to develop new things, new new ways of for blind people to be oriented in their world. Um whether you're indoors or outdoors. Uh I'm gonna make here's a caution, uh, and I say this from experience, lived experience. I know some allies who are very involved in tech for blind people. And they have, of course, the best of intentions. They really want to make a difference, but they don't hire or listen to blind people.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

So you can't you can't have uh you can't have a disability and accessibility podcast without saying nothing about us without us, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yes. Um, so you know, and I think I get it that they they want really to help, but um don't be afraid also. So I'm I'm interested in I I will want to watch that. I want to see when wheelchairs become um ergonomic and uh um adaptable to individual bodies. And you know, when when will that happen? Why is that so hard? What is what is stopping that from happening happening? Whether it's uh you know, I don't know because it's not my world, but uh there are companies that control the manufacture of wheelchairs. When will airlines in learn not to break or lose wheelchairs? When you know, but technology is great, and it's making life better, improving the world for us. I, you know, but personally I'm more excited about people learning about disability.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Yeah. Well that makes complete sense. Um so okay, here's another question.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Do you have a defa a f you know, you you've been working with uh kind of companies, institutions uh for a while. Do you have a favorite example of a company or institution that's getting it right or at least making real progress?

SPEAKER_00 30:45

I think, you know, it's my whether if my experience is good, um when I go someplace, you know, someone once asked me, uh, what's the most accessible experience you've ever had in New York City? And I said, I don't know what that is because if it was super accessible, I just did it. You know, um yeah, yeah. It just happened, you know. Um I have had some, I think I've had some great experiences at museums. Uh the Guggenheim Museum takes uh has done a great job of and the Whitney and MoMA have have done really worked hard to bring uh blind and low vision people, people uh with autism um or developmental disabilities into the museum world to um to show them things on uh in a ways that they can understand. And I I think that's so important and so impressive. Um that's uh you know, and I I think museums are actually ahead of the curve. You know, cities, there are some cities that try hard, um, but cities are incredibly complicated organisms, you know. Um they can pledge to try and be accessible, but you know, it's it's uh it's a big, it's a big ask, but I think hiring people to deal with it, paying real money, um not just again, not just beyond lip service, beyond the accessibility statement on your website. What can you do to enrich the experience of accessibility in your city, in your home, in your place of business, whatever, wherever you go, what can you do to be aware that it's not something to fear, but something to embrace?

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, that's really interesting. So, how about airlines? Have some been more accessible than others?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

I'm sorry, some which airlines? Airlines. Um, no. I will say I know that Delta has a robust program that's like an advisory group, disability advisory group. And the airlines in general have there's an airline advisory group, and there, you know, there's um lots of there's an organization called Open Doors uh organization ODO, which is um really focuses on training training airlines or really focuses more on airports, but for all the work they do, what happens is it gets down to the individual um flight attendant or gate attendant who no matter how many times they've been told, don't speak to a guide dog, don't pet it or feed it without asking the handler. They may have been told this, but um they don't follow that. Every airline I've ever flown flown on has someone has you know broken that protocol and um someone professionally. Uh yeah. So, you know, I think I think there's so much work to be done with airlines. Um Amtrak is trying, but I've had great and poor experiences with Amtrak. I think the rideshare companies have a lot to lot to um a lot to apologize for. They um absolutely you know, and everyone knows this, and you know, it goes to the heart of what I do as a trainer and educator. Is why is it so hard to offer this service to people? And sure, it would help me. I would you know make a lot more money if if if um such programs were much more widespread. But the point is it's painless and it's helpful, and uh the costs are minimal compared to with the cost of you know litigation or whatever. And you know, remember when uh was it I think it was Domino's or I think Domino's, you know, uh there's a big lawsuit, you know, it was a web accessibility lawsuit lawsuit. Yeah, Domino's spent a couple million dollars trying to defend themselves when the fix would have been$38,000 at the time, you know. Um and you have to again, and that's where money comes into this equation. If you have spent your if your business, and you as a as a leader of the business, um, have spent your your career um creating budgets and designing budgets and and pricing and all that, and of course you haven't thought about disability, whether it's your your employees or your customers, and then somebody asks you to think about it, there's then it suddenly it will appear expensive.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Um and it will really cost that's money I I don't have. Um, but if you think about it from the start and you realize, okay, if I don't include these people, I'm cutting off a huge portion of the population that has real spending power. Yeah. That is eager and excited to go out and be part of the world. But how many people with disabilities? And I know them, they don't go outside because they are afraid uh physically for their safety, or they are afraid that someone will just be an asshole. Just like with design, if you if you start designing buildings with doors that everyone can use, everyone will use it. If you create buildings that have you know five stairs up and a heavy door handle with no push, then you've excluded you know millions of people from your building.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

You know?

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Okay, Peter. Last question. Yes, sir. What's coming up on the horizon? Any new laws, technologies, or cultural moments in accessibility that you're especially watching?

SPEAKER_00 37:45

I'd love to see in just a growing awareness of um audio description in um and broadcast media, uh, broadcast streaming, whatever you want to call it. Um I think there are some amazing um technological developments out there um that people are working hard to do. I'm I'm excited about the rise of the growth in um venture capital that put into helping create new things, new ways for people with disabilities to participate in the world. And you know, this wasn't a thing, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago. I think now there are actual uh organizations, um fund managers raising capital to to invest in whether it's in accessible real estate or accessible uh vehicles. I mean, I for one amount looking forward to the growth of the autonomous vehicle. I've ridden in one, I had a great experience. Um and uh you know I I'm looking forward to that. So I'm looking forward to being able to uh be safer because there's more awareness. Um I'm looking forward to people feeling like they can participate and they don't have to be an advocate or um right now I think the circle of advocacy is pretty narrow. But I think it's growing all the time, and I think there's pressure, and I think there are I know there there are um legal uh or no legislative challenges out there. There's there are bills being worked on, whether they have to do with health care, with um access to technology um or uh access to education um and literacy. I think all of these are important and I can't wait till they move forward to the next step.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Peter, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your insight and stories with us today. Uh it's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Thank you so much for having me on, asking me to do this. I'm thrilled and honored.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Thank you all for joining us when we explore accessibility and disability. If you enjoyed this podcast, check out more episodes and show notes and accessible communities.