Mobility Impairment - Day in the Life with Tobias Forrest

: In this episode of Day in the Life, Taylor speaks with actor, singer, writer, and advocate Tobias Forrest about life after a C5 spinal cord injury, authentic disability representation, and the unexpected paths that can emerge after life changes completely. Toby shares how acting became both a creative outlet and a form of therapy, why authentic casting matters, and how humor, community, nature, music, and self-advocacy continue to shape his daily life.

This conversation is warm, funny, candid, and grounded in lived experience. Toby reflects on representation, mental health, acquired disability, assistive tools, accessible creativity, and the simple power of asking before assuming. His story is not about inspiration as performance; it is about visibility, honesty, and making room for disabled people to be seen as whole people with full, complicated, creative lives.

Links:

Tobias's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2574603

Daruma: http://www.darumamovie.com/

Tobias's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tobiaseasyforrest

Transcript

Taylor: 00:00

This podcast episode includes mature themes, strong language, or discussions that some listeners may find sensitive. Viewer discretion is advised. Welcome to the Day in the Life series on the Accessible Community Podcast, where we explore disability and accessibility in everyday life. Each podcast episode is a new lens to broaden our understanding and drive inclusion. For show notes, go to accessiblecommunity.org slash podcasts. Let's make accessibility part of every day. Hey everyone, and welcome to a brand new episode of Day in the Life. As always, I'm your host for this series, Taylor Dorward. I'm a blind Caucasian male with short brown hair. Today I'm wearing my Rosalind's glasses, a white T-shirt, and some kind of flannel. I think it's blue. Yeah, blue. That gives you an idea of who I am in case you're new. Today I'm speaking with Toby, and we're going to have a fun conversation. I'm looking forward to it. With that, I'll turn it over to Toby, let him introduce himself, and then we'll get into the interview.

Toby: 01:18

Thank you so much, Taylor. Hi, I'm Toby, also Tobias Forrest. I am, believe it or not, 50 years old. I'll just be honest with you guys. I've got some sandy blonde hair with a little gray streak in there, a little gray five o'clock shadow going on here. I'm in a power wheelchair with a gray background and a light blue shirt. I'm a Caucasian male, and I live in California. Thank you so much for having me here.

Taylor: 01:57

Yeah, absolutely. I always appreciate those accessible introductions. One, it helps anyone listening to the audio-only version, but for folks like me who may not be able to fully participate in the video podcast, it helps put a face to the name. So thank you for that. You gave us a quick introduction there, but I want to learn more, and I'd love for our viewers to get to know you a bit better. Can you tell us more about Toby?

Toby: 02:27

Yeah, thanks so much, buddy. I was born in California, in San Francisco, but I've lived in close to 10 states. I was raised in Hawaii, Minnesota, Tennessee, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Arizona, and Florida. So I might be someone's neighbor who's watching this. I might have been your neighbor at some point, Taylor.

Taylor: 02:55

We did live in Pennsylvania briefly. Or I did.

Toby: 02:59

I went to Valley Forge Military Academy in Philadelphia. Yeah.

Taylor: 03:05

Nice.

Toby: 03:06

I had an injury when I was 22, almost 23 years old. I was diving off the side of a waterfall in the Grand Canyon into shallow water. Unfortunately, the water was too shallow, and I hit the bottom. I had a C5 spinal cord injury, did a little drowning and a little bit of dying, and apparently they're not ready for my sense of humor upstairs or downstairs. I have to marinate a little bit longer, which I'm more than happy to do. I came back a quadriplegic, became a wheelchair user, and had to redefine my life. I started off painting, went back to school, got a master's in psychology, and eventually moved out to California to do some research at UCLA. A great friend of mine, Danny Murphy, who was an actor, a quadriplegic, and a wheelchair user, told me about an acting competition for people with disabilities. It was a Christopher Reeve acting scholarship. I applied, even though I had no experience, but I had written a monologue about an old man with Alzheimer's when I was in school. I brought that in, ended up winning the scholarship, and it changed my life and the course of everything. I became an actor and sang in a band. I've been lucky enough to sing at the Oscars in 2020 in the choir. I've been on TV shows opposite Viola Davis in How to Get Away with Murder. I was recently shot in the head by the FBI on FBI: Most Wanted, and I was very excited about that. As an actor, you kind of always want to die. As someone who's already died, I was like, well, I have that experience down in real life. Being able to represent authentic casting is very important to me. I was really lucky to star in a film called Daruma, which is the first film in history to authentically cast its two main characters with disabilities. I co-starred alongside John Lawson, who is a double-arm amputee, an amazing guy, and an incredible talent. We were very lucky because the writer and producer, Kelly McNeil Yellen, and her husband, Alexander Yellen, who directed the film, stuck to their guns and wanted to authentically cast John and me. Twenty years after I got that first scholarship, I was awarded the very first Christopher Reeve Acting Award at the Media Access Awards for Daruma. That was such a full-circle moment and a really profound moment to realize that, 20 years later, I've had an opportunity to do something I always wanted to do: represent somebody and be in a film that, at first, you might think is about two guys with disabilities, but then you realize that's not it at all. It's just about two guys who are crappy fathers, and the disability just happens to be part of their characters. So here I am today, lucky enough to be with you. As I shared earlier, I've also been lucky enough to do some voiceover recently. I have a few things out right now, including Goat, where I did some additional voices, and a cartoon on Nickelodeon called Mr. Crocodile that I'm part of. So here we are, and thanks so much, Taylor.

Taylor: 07:43

Yeah, of course. That's incredible. I'll make sure we attach some links so people can check out your work. I'd love to check some of it out myself.

Taylor: 07:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Toby: 07:58

Tobias Forrest on IMDb, and check out Daruma Movie. It's free right now on tons of streaming platforms, including Amazon.

Taylor: 08:09

Awesome. We'll make sure to attach any relevant links. What I find really interesting about everything you said is that you didn't plan for this to be what you were doing. You kind of thought, let's try it and you never know, and it brought you to where you are now. Do you ever think back to that moment and wonder what if you had decided not to do it? What did that moment mean, just taking that leap?

Toby: 08:41

Yeah. What happened for me was kind of a chain of events. I mentioned Danny Murphy earlier. I was lucky enough to meet him right out of the hospital, when I lived in Florida. He became my mentor. He was an actor in a wheelchair and was really good friends with the Farrelly brothers. He was in Something About Mary, Kingpin, and a ton of movies. I had no plans to become an actor, but after getting my master's in psychology, I had to portray someone with Alzheimer's for a class. I went home, wrote this monologue about a man with Alzheimer's, and performed it for my class. They said, “Well, you should be an actor.” I was like, “What are you talking about? That's not the plan.” But then I reached out to Danny and asked, “What do I do?” He said, “Take an improv class.” I did that, ended up joining an improv troupe, and they would carry me up two flights of stairs twice a week so I could be part of their shows. I was blown away that people wanted me to be part of this thing and were willing to put their sweat equity, literally, into carrying me up and including me because they thought it made the show better. Then, fast forward to having a chance to move to LA, where Danny lived. He told me about the scholarship opportunity, and I tried out because I had already written the monologue about the man with Alzheimer's. It didn't feel like a big risk. It just felt like an opportunity to try something new. I quickly found that, before my injury, I was a very extreme person. I needed to be on the side of a cliff, skiing off a cliff, or doing a backflip off something. I couldn't do that anymore, but acting allowed me to supplement that. It gave me a new art form, a new expression, and it eliminated the wheelchair for me because now I was in my brain and back in my body, in a sense. I've never really thought about that part of it, but it's a huge bonus because it's therapy in a way. And then, when it becomes something you get paid for, and people trust you with their material and with a character, it becomes something even greater. You're getting a little bit of free therapy, you're suffering because it's long hours, and for a few moments, you get to be out of your life and in somebody else's.

Taylor: 12:16

That's really cool. It kind of makes me want to try some of that stuff. I'm similar to you, like you said, with the dark humor about some of these things. I have that as well. For a long time growing up, I loved trying out different accents and goofing around with family and friends. I used to love pretending to be Russian. I don't know why, but I always had fun with that accent. We could do this Russian thing all day. But I think it's really cool that you found something that, one, you were eventually able to turn into a career, but also something you got something out of intrinsically: that therapy, that stress relief, and that experience of forgetting what you're going through for a moment through acting. I think that's pretty cool. I feel like I have a similar relationship with singing, however, no one pays me for it. But I get that. It's cathartic, and it's really nice.

Toby: 13:21

It's pretty cool that you have that and found that, especially because we are two guys wearing light blue right now. We both are singers and performers by nature. We were talking earlier about how we're both people who have had drowning experiences. So I definitely encourage you to get out there and find whatever is local to you. If not, create something. There's also something called the Easterseals Disability Film Challenge. They just had it, and it happens every year. It's a film challenge that anybody can enter, where people make a short film in a short amount of time. It has really created careers for people. There are opportunities for their films to be seen by some incredible talents out here in Hollywood, and the films get shown at the Chinese Theatre. There are some great prizes. It's put on by my friend Nic Novicki and Easterseals. I encourage people to check that out. But yeah, man, you should start if you haven't already.

Taylor: 14:46

Yeah, certainly. I might give that a try sometime soon. I'm always looking for new hobbies, and I'm a huge advocate for people trying new things. I try to put that into effect in my own life as much as I can, but sometimes I forget. I'm always looking to try new things, so I might get out of my comfort zone a bit and try improv or something. It could be fun.

Toby: 15:09

I encourage everybody, honestly, with and without a disability, and especially with a disability, because I want the world to see that there is diversity out there and there are authentic stories out there. It's interesting that you have a visual difference, but the most interesting thing about you is far greater than that. There is so much more depth to you than perception.

Taylor: 15:50

Yeah, I love that. That brings us to a pretty important topic, one I love talking about. You talked about some of the journey you went through, and I'm curious: how does your disability status now, and some of the limitations you face, relate to your identity? Has that changed over the years?

Toby: 16:12

I think I get what you're saying. I have an acquired disability, and it's a visible one. People see the wheelchair and instantly empathize or sympathize with the visual perspective. They instantly know that I'm disabled, and a lot of times they think, “Oh, that guy has it tougher than me.” Initially, I was a gymnast and someone who was very physical. Then you go to being a wheelchair user with limited hand function and limited mobility, having to rely completely on caregivers and other people for things. It's a transition. But as you know, we're built for transition. That's part of our path as humans. You better be able to adapt. That's your one good thing. I had to adapt to that and understand that, for the most part, I'm seeing out. I'm not checking myself out in mirrors or any of that stuff. But as an actor, I'm going to be on camera, and I'm going to see all of this back. I really had to be honest with myself and go, “Well, I'm not going to look the way a certain type is expected to look by society's standards.” Society has two types of wheelchair users. They've got the really buff dude with little legs who can do all sorts of stuff, or they've got Christopher Reeve. Those are my two options, and I'm on a spectrum in between that people don't fully understand. They'll say, “Why don't you do some sit-ups?” or comment on what I eat, and I'm like, “This is a product of a spinal cord injury.” This belly is quad belly. People are not educated. Being on stage, I'll be honest with you, I'd rather be on stage than in an audience. On stage, I can move around and do whatever I need to do. As an audience member, I'm in a tall wheelchair, and I move around a lot because I have spasticity. I don't want to ruin the experience for the people behind me at a play. So a lot of times I just don't go to theater, because it's honestly easier to be on stage in the theater. It's a funny dynamic. For Daruma, I decided purposefully, because the character was a self-loathing guy who didn't take care of himself, that I was going to put on a lot of weight, or as much weight as I could in my situation. It might be the only chance I get to be trusted to lead a movie and have the opportunity to immerse myself in the reality of changing yourself and your body for a character. Then I had to go, “Well, now I'm a heavier version of myself. Now I have to see that.” Maybe that's not the best version of me, but it's an honest version of me.

Taylor: 20:28

That's cool, and I love you sharing your perspective on all of this. That's really interesting, what you said about preferring to be on stage rather than in the audience. I know a vast amount of people would think the opposite, so that's completely different.

Toby: 20:44

To that extent, I did a play once where I had to take a shower on stage completely nude. I came out in my wheelchair, and the other actor, who played my caregiver, transferred me. We took a shower with water live on stage and did an entire scene. She put me back in the wheelchair and got me dressed, all in front of an audience. That was something where I had to ask myself, “Is this really what I want to do as an actor? Do I really want to risk this?” Because if something goes wrong, it's going to go wrong. If I fall out of the wheelchair, if I fall out of the shower, if anything happens, it's happening for real. The audience and I and everyone else have to get through it. Fortunately, nothing crazy ever happened. We did a lot of shows, but it was a lot of cold showers. I thought it was important for people to see the reality and go, “Holy crap, that's a real guy who needs that person to make all of that happen right now.” And what if something happens? What does a disabled body really look like? That's real, and I thought that was important to do.

Taylor: 22:27

That's really powerful.

Toby: 22:32

Yeah, yeah. Okay, you have to sit over there for a little while.

Toby: 22:37

Yeah.

Taylor: 22:38

Yeah, that's really powerful. I would love to see reviews of that. I'm curious what people took away from it, because, like you said, it's a perspective into an experience that most people don't know anything about or fully realize what goes into. I think it's cool that you showcased that for everyone.

Toby: 23:02

Yeah, it's a play called The Cost of Living.

Taylor: 23:08

Yeah. So you said quite a bit about acting, voiceover, and singing. You also said you used to do gymnastics, which is pretty cool, and I would imagine that's what got you into doing things like cliff diving and being a little crazy. I'm curious: what are some other hobbies and interests you have now, outside of voiceovers and acting? I know that's still a hobby too, even though you get paid for it now, which is awesome.

Toby: 23:40

Yeah. The biggest thing for me when I got hurt was the disconnect from nature. Before, I was someone who was in the woods pretty much every day, and a lot of times I was in the woods by myself. I had a really strong connection with nature, and since using a wheelchair, it's been sort of distanced from me. It's tough to get out there. A few years back, I did my first movie, Special Unit, and afterward I had taken ride services so many times that I thought, “This sucks. I've saved up money. I'm going to get myself a van.” I finally got a van, and I was able to drive. I said, “I'm going to get back to nature. I'm going to go out to the park and go hiking.” So I parked, went out into the park, and started going on the trails. Then I thought, “I'm going to go on this little off-trail instead.” I got there, finally stopped, and then I was about to go back and realized, “Uh-oh. I'm in some deep sand that I didn't expect.” It was the middle of summer, the middle of the day, and it had to be 100 degrees out. I was an idiot, and I didn't think I had service. I was able to maneuver the wheelchair around and get back to my van, but I definitely learned that if my new hobby is going to be hiking, I need to bring someone with me. I love getting out into nature. That's what I honestly try to do as much as I can: find some new place to explore. I've found a couple of accessible waterfalls. I'm not jumping off them anytime soon, but it's nice to sit next to them, at least.

Taylor: 26:09

Yeah, that's pretty cool. Sorry, what's that?

Toby: 26:14

Oh, I said I'll do some writing when I can. I'll still grab my ukulele, write some silly songs, go sit outside, and enjoy the sunshine.

Taylor: 26:30

Awesome. When you make your own songs, or just in general, are there certain genres of music you like the most, especially to perform?

Toby: 26:41

I'm a little all over the place. I have a song called “The Lizard People,” which is about lizard people who disguise themselves and eat all the people, but then they find out that people are poisonous. So it's got a little twist at the end. I also have a song called “Ride On,” which is about persevering through everything. Even when the road gets rough, ride on, and even when times get tough, you ride on. I have a couple of love songs, a couple of anti-love songs, and a couple of songs that might feel like nonsense, but there are deeper waters underneath the nonsense. I love wordplay and all of that. To this day, I'll still write silly songs, short ones that are nice and fun.

Taylor: 27:54

That's awesome. I would agree. I have kind of a mixed bag when it comes to that stuff. I started singing Frank Sinatra, and that's how I got into it. I still like to sing some Frank Sinatra, but now I've gotten more into '90s and 2000s rock and some current soul and R&B. I love to mix it up and challenge myself.

Toby: 28:17

I love that. We would get along well together. I'm not so much of a crooner, but I'll try.

Taylor: 28:32

I mean, if those come up in our set list, I can handle those, and you can take the other ones.

Toby: 28:37

There you go. If you give me some reggae, some funk, some soul, and some blues, we're talking.

Taylor: 28:49

Nice. I'm curious: when all this first started happening, and I'm sure it has changed over time, how did it affect your mental health? You were super active and doing gymnastics and all these things, and then, in the blink of an eye, you couldn't do those anymore. As I'm sure you can imagine, I went through a fairly similar experience, that realization of, “Oh, I can't do that anymore.” How has that affected your mental health, and how have you dealt with that over the years?

Toby: 29:26

For me, I had a pretty diverse childhood. I grew up with a lot of different experiences, lost my birth parents at a young age, was adopted at a young age, and saw a lot of different dynamics. I lived in many different places, so part of me felt conditioned for change and having to adapt. The other part of me was pretty competitive. I liked sports, and I was a gymnast for a reason: I didn't really love having to rely on a team of people in order to win something. It was like, let me just win it by myself. So I was drawn more to sports where it felt like you could win by yourself. When I got hurt, I sort of saw it as, all right, we're going to have to play this sport. It's going to be the toughest sport you're going to have to play, but let's get into it. What do we have to do?

Then I had a profound experience when I was first hurt that really changed everything for me. I was on life support for a couple of months, just trying to breathe again. I was finally able to get off the breathing tube, and once I was somewhat stable, they brought me down for an X-ray. The guy treated me like a product. He ignored me when I tried to talk to him, and then I got put into a hallway with a bunch of other human “products” waiting to be X-rayed. I was down there for about an hour, and the hallway started filling up. Then they said, “We need some room in the hallway. Let's move this product,” meaning me, “into this room.”

They brought me into a room, and I was by myself at first, but then I noticed there was something behind a curtain. I knew this was a hospital where they did animal testing or something like that, and I heard what sounded like an animal screaming with a mechanical, robotic noise. I had been feeling so low. I was thinking, “I can't move. I can't get out of this bed. These people stuck me in a room. What if they forget about me?” I was at the lowest I could possibly feel mentally and emotionally. I thought, “I should have just drowned and died. This is not what I want.”

But then I heard that sound next to me and thought, “What is this? Why do they have me in here with something in a cage behind a curtain?” It took me out of myself. I was there for a while trying to figure it out, and finally two nurses came in and moved the curtain. When they moved it, it was a baby on a respirator, an infant on a respirator, that had been in the room with me the whole time. It hit me like a wall of bricks. I had been sitting there feeling sorry for myself, but I had already lived a whole life. I had 20-some years. I had been surrounded by people who loved me. I had wonderful life experiences and had taken so much for granted. And here was a baby just trying to survive and live for today. I thought, “You win, baby. I'm not going to feel sorry for myself.” I don't know if that baby lived, died, is alive today, or has babies of their own, but that baby did something for me.

Taylor: 34:40

That's real. That's crazy, and it's ironic talking to you, but it seems like something that would happen in a movie. It's that moment where the protagonist has the click, pulls themselves up by the bootstraps, and gets to work. It's really wild that the moment hit you in that way. I wonder if they put you in there for a reason.

Toby: 35:05

Hey, maybe that's their tactic: put them in there with the baby.

Taylor: 35:09

Yeah, you never know. That's a really interesting story. From what you shared, it seems like our experiences were fairly similar in the beginning: getting off the respirator and figuring out what the new normal was going to be. I'm curious: did you go through any therapies while you were inpatient?

Toby: 35:41

Yeah, I did it all. Group therapy and all of that. My problem is that I'm a smart-ass. If there's an opportunity for a joke or a bad pun, I can't help myself. I'm going to go there. I can tend to be insensitive at times because I'm a bit unoffendable. But I did quite well in therapy because I think I saw it, once again, as a bit of a competitive thing. I thought, “Show me how we're going to do this.” That's how I managed therapy. They threw a bunch of stuff at me, and I thought, “I'm pretty good. I'm all right, actually.” I don't think I was in denial. I think I fully accepted the situation and decided I was going to fight as hard as I could. I was very fortunate that I don't think I ever had a moment where I wanted to roll into the pool. I didn't need it after the baby. The baby did the job. The baby still continues to do the job. I went back to school and got a master's in psychology. For all intents and purposes, I planned to go back and help guide other people out of their darkest moments and toward the light. But I also realized I have an issue with people who can't cope, and I like to talk more than I like to listen. So I was lucky I became an actor.

Taylor: 38:11

That's another similarity I see in our situations. Right after I went through my experience, they put me in therapy and tried to make sure everything was okay, like they do with everyone. But at that time, I was so focused on, “All right, I understand what happened. All I can do is work to improve what I can.” Every day from around 6 a.m. to 7 p.m., it was straight to work on everything: physical therapy, occupational therapy, vision therapy. In those earlier times, I didn't have time to dwell on what happened or how my life was going to be different. I don't know if they did that strategically, but because I was so busy every single day and exhausted at the end, I didn't have time to pity my situation. I'm very thankful for that because it kept me from falling into that dark spot that I'm sure a lot of people go through.

Toby: 39:18

Yeah, I believe activity and community are beyond helpful. It's when things get a little slow that we start to have too much time for our thoughts to become invasive. But I think those moments are also required: having moments where you are alone and have to face it, internalize it, turn inward, and go, “All right, what's in there? Let's pull this out, lay it on the table, and sort through it.” Metaphors have always helped me too. I'm a metaphor person. Use a metaphor and it explains everything for me, and then I'm good to go.

Taylor: 40:19

Yeah, I like that. For a while, I would use metaphors in those earlier times when people asked me what it was like. The one I go to is, “Have you ever used a pair of binoculars?” Especially as a kid, I would turn the focus all the way to one side, and everything would get super blurry. The only thing you could see was the sunlight. That's kind of what it's like. Over the years, it's like the focus has slowly been scrolling back and becoming slightly more clear.

Toby: 40:57

It would be funny if you had a pair of glasses you brought around with you. People could ask, “So what's it like being you?” and you could say, “Here, put these on.”

Taylor: 41:08

Yeah, and it's funny you say that. They make some glasses that mimic different visual disabilities, like glaucoma or retinitis pigmentosa, but they don't have one for cortical blindness.

Toby: 41:23

There's a market for you.

Taylor: 41:25

Yeah. I think part of it is because, depending on the severity of the damage in your occipital lobe, it can greatly affect what you see. For a while, I couldn't see anything. Over time, I could see some, but only in my central vision. For example, if I hold my finger right in front of my face, and for anyone who can't see the video, if I hold it right in front of my face and move it to my right, I can see it almost all the way over to my shoulder. But if I do the same thing on the left side, I lose it almost immediately. For anyone who can't see, that's about an inch away from my eyeline, and then it's gone. It's crazy. I know it's still there, I can feel it, but I just can't see it. So it's hard to describe.

Toby: 42:21

Now, have you integrated technology or any current technologies into your situation?

Taylor: 42:31

Assistive technologies and assistive glasses? Yeah, they have. I actually have a pair on my desk here. They have AI-embedded smart glasses that can help with object recognition and things like that. Honestly, I probably should use them more often than I do. I'm not sure why I don't use them as often as I could. They certainly can help with reading and figuring out what pair of shoes I'm holding, what color they are, and that kind of stuff. Maybe I'm just stubborn in some ways and like to be independent. I'm like, “I don't need those robot glasses.”

Toby: 43:18

There's a little bit of a “can't teach an old dog new tricks” thing, right? You've gotten settled into the way that you do it. I find there are so many products out there that try to cater toward disability, or at least in my situation, mobility, and I've thought, “Well, there are easier and less expensive things.” I don't need a grabber that costs $45 when I can buy an extendable back scratcher for $2 on Amazon.

I had an experience once that was pretty profound for me as an actor, but also as someone with a disability. I got a job where the first thing the character had to do was put on a rubber glove, reach into a trash can, and pull out a bloody sweater. I knew I couldn't do that, but I already had the job, and I wasn't going to tell them I couldn't do it. So I met the director and said, “This is the only time I've ever done this, but I don't think my character would do that. He wouldn't want his DNA anywhere near that situation. My character would have a device he flips out to pull the trash can over and lift the sweater so he can examine it from far away.”

Taylor: 50:05

That's really cool that they went through that experience. Was that on FBI: Most Wanted?

Toby: 50:11

That was actually on a show with Jeremy Piven. I can't recall the name of the show right now because it got canceled.

Taylor: 50:29

Gotcha. Well, if you find it online, we can certainly add that to the show notes if anyone wants to check it out.

Toby: 50:37

I believe it was called Anatomy of the Crowd or something like that. I forget.

Taylor: 50:44

Gotcha. What I found really cool about that was, I guess “cool” is probably not the best adjective, but you found yourself in a situation where, one, you realized how important self-advocacy is, and two, you felt like you were kind of an ambassador for people with disabilities. Is that something you often feel like you're having to wear or hold the burden for, or however you want to say that?

Toby: 51:17

To a degree, yeah. For instance, when I had an opportunity to sing at the Oscars, my chair had an elevating seat. I was raising my chair up, and I asked, “Will they be able to see that I'm in a wheelchair?” I wanted to make sure that little kids out there would go, “Oh my God, there's a guy in a wheelchair. I can do that. I can be on that stage.” That was all I really cared about. Can they see the wheelchair? That was the only time I felt like I really needed to show some advocacy for disability, not to be a representative, but to show that there's a chair on the stage, and that should be a normalized thing. That should be everywhere.

Taylor: 52:24

That's really cool. I'm glad you did that because I know a lot of kids who acquire a disability at a young age experience what that's like. I don't want to speak in generalities, but I've heard over the years, doing this kind of work, that being born with a disability and acquiring one at a younger age can create differences in how you perceive yourself and grow up with that disability. I think it's really cool that you were showing everyone, especially young kids, that just because you're in a wheelchair, or whatever it may be, doesn't mean you can't sing at the Oscars or be in TV shows. That's awesome.

Toby: 53:14

I think that's the biggest hurdle on both sides. People don't see the representation, and we're educated through entertainment. At this point, even the news is entertainment, right? Everything is entertainment. That's how we're being educated. If it's not authentic, then we're not going to learn the true stories. We're not going to know that there's diversity in vision. We're not going to know that there's diversity in people with mobility issues. Even if I have a C5 spinal cord injury, the next person with a C5 spinal cord injury has a totally different one. They're a different snowflake and a different version than I am. It's like if you took all the blind and visually impaired folks and put them in a lineup and asked, “Do you all see the same?” They'd say, “No, there's a whole array of it.” I think people also have expectations. They see the guy in a wheelchair and ask, “Can you do a wheelie?” I say, “No. Can you do a backflip? You're standing. By all accounts, you should be able to do a backflip.”

Taylor: 54:45

That's awesome, and I feel that when I'm talking to my niece especially. I want her to grow up understanding that you can never assume someone's situation, whether you can visually tell there's a difference or not. Right now we're talking in the context of disability, but it really holds true no matter who you're talking about. Someone could be going through a situation where their mental faculties are impaired, or they're just incredibly stressed, but you can't make assumptions about someone based on what they look like or how they're interacting with the world. I've loved the opportunity to be there for my niece, who is six years old, and show her at a young age that disability can look like so many different things. Not only for her, but for older folks as well. People are constantly surprised when they find out I do ballroom dancing, sing, and do jujitsu. When they hear all these things, they're like, “Whoa, that's so cool.” And I'm like, “Yeah, it might be perceived as cool, but it's more so for me to show people there's a lot more to me than my disability.” Similar with you, and similar with a lot of people. Just because we have one thing that might fit into a box in someone's head doesn't mean we fit in that box.

Toby: 56:12

Right, right. I love that you say that about your niece, because that's one of my proudest things: my nieces and nephews are the types of people who are open-minded and educated about my situation and about how to treat people. It's kind of simple. I did How to Get Away with Murder, and I was lucky enough to do a scene with Viola Davis, like I said before. Before I met her, she came in one morning and was walking toward us. There was a PA there, and she said hello, opened the door, and went in. The PA said to everybody, “Oh my God, should I have opened the door for her?” The other one said, “I don't know, that's Viola Davis. She's pretty independent. She might want to open the door for herself.” So everybody got into this discussion about whether or not to open the door for Viola Davis. And I'm sitting there thinking, this is exactly what happens when I go to a door. People go, “Do I open the door for the guy in the wheelchair? Maybe he wants to open the door for himself and be independent. Is it offensive if I open the door?” And I realized that Viola Davis and I are the same.

Toby: 57:34

Right?

Toby: 57:34

We're the same person. No, it's that people are taught to assume rather than just ask. The answer is: just ask. “Can I get the door for you?” Or get the door for them because that's just proper manners.

Taylor: 57:57

Yeah. I think that's an amazing message to finish on: accessible communication and knowing when to help and how to help. I think you summed it up perfectly. Just ask. It's human nature for us to want to help others, and sometimes, in the spur of the moment, you might do something and think, “Maybe I should have waited and let them do it themselves.” That stuff will happen. But you said it perfectly: just ask. It's interesting that you gave that example of Viola Davis having a similar kind of interaction, where people had a similar outlook about her that they sometimes have about you. I thought that was a pretty interesting and cool example.

Toby: 58:49

It's a funny dichotomy, I think.

Taylor: 58:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Toby, it's been incredible getting to know you, and I'm looking forward to sharing your story and what you've been up to. Feel free to give us as many links as you want to share. I can't wait to take a look at some of these things, as well as I can take a look. Thank you so much to everyone for listening and/or watching, and I hope to see you all soon.

Toby: 59:25

Yeah, thanks again, Taylor.

Taylor: 59:27

Yeah, of course. Bye, everyone. Thank you all for joining us while we explore accessibility and disability. If you enjoyed this podcast, check out more episodes and show notes at accessiblecommunity.org slash podcasts. Remember, be accessible, be inclusive.