Don't worry everyone, you are with me, Dan Smith, and we're all on thin ice together. Your AI assistant has not gone crazy translating your podcasts into Japanese. I'm just wishing my co-host, Robert Swan, a good morning because he's just woken up this morning in Japan.
SPEAKER_00I am. I'm here in Tokyo, and as being an explorer, I'm making a difficult expedition for me this time into the heart of technology.
SPEAKER_01And your venture to Japan got you and I to talking a lot about technology, and that's really a primary topic for this episode: technology in the wild. Which might sound like a contradiction, but technology, and especially information and communications technology, is already playing an essential role in protecting, preserving, and regenerating the remaining wild spaces on Earth. And we're also going to talk, I'm very excited about this, about Rob's next expedition to Antarctica. He'll tell you whether or not he's going to do more pull-bound tool walking, but what I can't tell you right now is this new expedition is called Ice Station. So I think it's an interesting discussion. Japan and technology and using tech in the frozen wild. So let's begin with Japan. What's your goal there, Robert?
SPEAKER_00I meant Japan is known for its brilliance and innovation in technology, but I'm going to this massive research and development forum to go and see some of the most extraordinary new innovations in technology, try and understand them, and see how those technologies can really be doing brilliantly good things for people and for our planet. So I'm a bit lost.
SPEAKER_01But yes, Tokyo would be an entirely different world than rural Assam in Northeast India.
SPEAKER_00As far as technology is concerned, this is a pretty special week for me. Because 40 years ago, Dan, 40 years ago, myself, Roger, and Gareth, listeners might remember from the first two episodes with the great William Fenton, our journey to the South Pole on foot. And on that journey, that first week, Dan, it was possibly something I'd rather forget, really, because we were pulling on our backs 350 pounds on a sledge, 180 kilograms, and ahead of us, another 62 days of doing this to the South Pole, possibly longer. Would we run out of food? And every step I remember we were moving away from being able to turn back to base. And you're in this extraordinary sort of ice circle. And I used to remember looking behind and seeing a couple of mountains gradually disappearing. And I remember thinking, you know, can we actually do this? Have we bitten off more than we could chew? And pretty frightened actually, feeling very vulnerable. And it was my idea in the first place. So it was it was a really tough week 40 years ago with no technology, Dan. No radio, no GPS, no just a normal watch navigating using the sun and a sextant, and nothing, no backup, no communications, absolutely nothing. So coming into this extraordinary world here in Tokyo to see technology that is just in 40 years just gone you know unbelievably far is something I'm actually very excited about. But remembering those days 40 years ago where we had nothing, not one battery with us on that uh expedition.
SPEAKER_01You had mentioned something before uh in one of our conversations. It even as great as technology is, you still have to take care of all of the human planning, the human details. Technology's not necessarily going to save your life. It may save you, but you still have to prepare. I it was a story about one of your your friends. I'm I'm I'm sorry to bring it up, even, but you there there was a tragedy on Everest that you were talking about.
SPEAKER_00When you go into the wild today, you know, you do have hopefully communications. You might have a satellite phone, you might have an in-reach system. Your telephone might even work now using incredible satellite technology. But I think it's important when you go into the wild, and that is the purpose of thin ice, as we both know, Dan, to look after these wild places. One is that when you go into the wild, you should respect where you are. But secondly, not to think that just the fact you can communicate will save your life. And the great mountaineer Rob Hall died nearly at the summit of Mount Everest, and very, very sadly, he was able to speak to his wonderful wife on a satellite phone, literally as he was dying. But that satellite phone did not mean that he could be rescued off the summit of Everest. So I think it's terribly important that, yes, we have the technology, but we plan, we prepare for all of our expeditions or forays into the wild, even if it's just for a day or a couple of days, we plan as if we don't have that technology. And I believe that's actually one of the reasons that we were able to make the South Pole 40 years ago, is that everything was planned because we didn't have a backup. And that was 40 years ago this week that you had actually started this trip. It is, Dan, it's 40 years ago to the day that we were one week into the journey. And I think in in life, all of those people who are slightly more my age, uh your age, uh, it's sometimes a bit of a shock when you think, wow, it's 40 years since we did that. But rather than thinking that's negative, I think it's really positive because look at what we've done. We haven't done everything that's good for our world in the last 40 years, but there's an awful lot of really good technology that can help our planet. So I'm excited uh to think 40 years ago we had nothing. Now today, look at what we've got. And I'm very excited to talk with you, Dan, in a minute about what we're about to do next week.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. That was the next point, is because 40 years ago you were there with nothing, and now you're going back. Now you're you by by going back, I mean you are going back to Antarctica. Have you been there since the undaunted expedition in 2022? You've when you completed the the walk across the landmass?
SPEAKER_00No, I have not been back, but I'm going back uh starting in in about a week and a half, geez, um, to go back to Union Glacier, which you've been to, Dan, so it's familiar territory for you. I'm going back to Union Glacier, and for the first time in my life, which feels really good, I'm going into the heart of Antarctica and I'm not having to walk to the South Pole. So this is a really good feeling for me. Normally I'm in a state of complete tension and worry and fear, and sort of in a state of semi-collapse. But this time we're going to our ice station, Union Glacier, 600 nautical miles from the pole. And what's just extraordinary, Dan, in my bags, weighing 23 kilograms only, is a Starlink system, which means that I unpack it, power it up, and I'm able to speak to schools, colleges, universities, sponsors all over the world. And in fact, on one day, December the 5th this year, I will be speaking, wait for it, Dan, to 500,000 young children in the UK all at the same time. Now, you're a technology person, I've no idea how that's possible, but it's happening. So I think often technology is criticized, especially when it surrounds young people and mobile phones and all those things. But this is technology that is just brilliant that I'm able to communicate from Antarctica all about the preservation of the last great wilderness left on Earth. So think of those 40 years, from absolutely nothing to now having that ability. And I think that's great.
SPEAKER_01Well, and technology, even from the very beginning, has always had the capacity for good and the capacity for really terrible things. I mean, the the first person to ever pick up a stick could plant a seed or it could beat somebody over the head. And so it's really about being enough of a an evolved human being to use it for good. I'm I'm delighted to see the telecommunications network able to connect you from the heart of Antarctica to you know hundreds of thousands of people. Are you doing that with the the 2041 Foundation, the education program that teaches children about Antarctica?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. This is the centerpiece of everything, Dan, is the five to 11-year-old education program, which, as you know, is free, 2041school.com. Um, so young people will be able to look in, see me going from Antarctica talking, and then they'll be able to either continue or start with the 2041 School Education Program. Because, as you and I have always said, Dan, in order to look after anything, you have to understand it first. So, understanding Antarctica through 2041 School is a huge step, I believe, in getting it into the minds of young people that in 16 years' time, when the world will start to decide on the future of Antarctica, that it's in their soul, it's in their hearts. They're champions of the Antarctic. So it's a big, big part of the Ice Station mission. Who else is going with you?
SPEAKER_01And what will they be doing while they're there in person?
SPEAKER_00Well, I have a team of 11, including myself, which is fantastic. And these are very special people, Dan, because they've had to raise their own money to be there, which, as you know, is in a changed world. It's very hard to raise uh financial support. So we have two brilliant people from India who are coming. Uh, we have uh it's a young lady from uh Singapore, um, she lives in Switzerland as well. We have a student from Hawaii, Eric, who's fantastic, very excited. Uh, we have a young student, university chap from Switzerland called Jens. We have a teacher from the very famous Eton College in the UK, we have a young lady coming from Paraguay, uh, we have a fantastic doctor, Dr. Hussein, coming from the UAE, and we have Richard, our brilliant engineer, and all of us are coming together in Antarctica, leaving the world behind, and really looking at how are we going to make sure that we preserve the Antarctic? How are we going to communicate that message out to young people, but also looking at solutions. Because I feel often in our world that we we still focus on the problems. We don't, I think, focus on the solutions enough. And Richard from his company Exogen, who are looking at one of the biggest issues on earth, and that's to do with air conditioning. As we heat up our world, which we are, more and more people, especially in developed nations, quite rightly, I would say, uh, are going to want to use more and more air conditioning. But the the the the way air conditioning is run now with the technology is not good for carbon impact, it's not good for the planet. In fact, heating and cooling our buildings here on Earth is something like five times more CO2 impact than the airline industry, which normally is always criticized so much. So he's bringing some technology to Antarctica where we're looking at uh how can we produce heat and cooling for buildings without impacting the environment? And what better place to do it than the Antarctic? Because if we keep on warming up our planet, uh Antarctica will melt. So a terrific team of people, all very, very excited about coming, and uh able to communicate out to their respective countries, all Dan, all being really, really positive. Uh, this is a time to be positive, not negative.
SPEAKER_01That does remind me that this week is actually the the the conference of the parties or the the COP, the UN climate program in Brazil. And you have gone to many of those. You spoke at the very first one, I believe. You presented there at the first few, but you've chosen to go to Japan at this technology event to see about the sustainability of technology. What are your thoughts about COP and depending on governments to do things versus individuals and corporations stepping up and doing what they need to do?
SPEAKER_00I think it's really important that we do realize that we are in a very critical situation here on planet Earth. And contrary to what some people say, climate change is a reality. We are changing our climate. Now, I don't know whether we are causing all of that, us as human beings, whether it's part of a natural cycle, whether it's 50-50. I don't know, Dan. But we are changing our climate, and as we change our climate, which we all know we are, uh that is going to be extremely dangerous in the future. Uh as you say, I have been to a lot of these United Nations meetings, and sometimes I think that they are more talk. I think there are a lot of people that go to these things, and I call them panel warriors. Wonderful people, but they just go from one conference to the next conference to the next conference to the next conference. And what are the results? Well, I think the results are there, but remember these cop meetings don't have teeth. So at the end of any cop meeting, people may agree on things, they may make decisions, they may make, which is great, more investment in certain areas, but really they can't, they aren't accountable to do that. There's no law that makes them do that. So I think that I'll leave the COPS to people much better than me, but I think my job in life is to get out there and look at solutions and help young people who do view, honestly, Dan, young people do view United Nations and things like COP as being not really relevant to them. They're a bit sort of distant and not really part of their lives. So I think I'm I'm back to basics, man, and showing young people because our little ice station over the next few weeks will be running on renewable energy in Antarctica, communicating, using power from renewable energy out to the real world. So I'm in captain positive mode in a world, let's be honest, uh, in lots of directions, including sustainability, that is a bit being pushed back. It is being pushed back. A lot of the things that I believe in are being pushed back, but that's no way of saying that we shouldn't step up and push forward.
SPEAKER_01You see things at COP or or going on in national governments and the international intrigue and negotiations and all the things like that. And and it almost seems like I there's nothing I can do. I I can't have that sort of impact, but no, I don't have to have that sort of impact. I just have to do what I can do and encourage other people to do what they can do.
SPEAKER_00No, it comes down to individuals, Dan, in the end. Yes, we have governments, but remember, governments are actually voted in by us, well, the majority of them are. Yeah. So I think that people using their vote is really important. And if you look at the current political system in many countries, United States, all over the world, I think personally, Dan, that people are quite fearful right now. People are frightened when they look at climate, when they look at politics, when they look at war, when they look at money, all kinds of things. People are feeling a bit kind of vulnerable. And what happens to people when they feel vulnerable is that they close in. Of course they do. They close in and they think about themselves, they think about their families, and they don't really think about much bigger picture, like you know, let's save Antarctica or you know, what about climate change? But I feel that that's understandable, and I think that all of us need to step it up and make possibly, which I think is important, make these issues relevant to those people that many environmentalists and many people trying their best to look after our world. I think we've sort of ignored a huge amount of people, and they those people always felt for many years that environmentalists were sort of holier than thou, that that environmentalists were looking down on people that weren't green. And I think a lot of everyday hardworking people were ostracized, pushed to one side. And I think that it's important that all of us who are trying to talk about climate change, sustainability, looking after Antarctica, looking after wild places be relevant to all people. Not just relevant to speak to people in a sort of echo chamber. A lot of people speak just to the same people, same message for many, many years. I think we need to open it up a bit and be more relevant.
SPEAKER_01That reminds me of an experience I had myself probably 20 years ago. I I've moved to Dallas three times. One of the times that I moved to Dallas, uh, I started uh participating in a chat group for the North Texas Green Party. And I was so excited about it because it was different. There it seemed hopeful. I cared about the environment, I cared about being a decent human being using common sense. But there was one fellow in that organization, every time I said anything, that guy just jumped down my throat. He chased me out of the Green Party, and I thought, wow, what a what a terrible thing. Here's someone who wants to participate and he's ostracized, and and and nobody else in the party defended me or even engaged. And I'll never forget that. And so I I can relate to people who one, you have to take care of your own self, you have to take care of your own family, but you also, I believe most people genuinely want to do the right thing, but it's hard to know what that is sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Completely agree with you, Dan. And in many ways, that's happened to me so many times. But look at you now. You're still in the ring, you're still doing some incredible things. And you know, to go back to technology, uh, as you know, I am a technological Luddite who doesn't really sometimes want to understand, you know, about AI and all these incredible things because I I have a view on that.
SPEAKER_01Let's take a time out. A Luddite is someone who resists technology and new ways of working. The term goes back to the bands of English workers who would destroy machinery and textile mills because they thought the machines threatened their jobs. I think many observant people today, and I hope to count myself among them, find Digital technology amazing and maddening, even I Cludite. The launch of this episode was delayed because right in the middle of editing, my trusty laptop that has been to Antarctica with me started fricking out. And as I frantically tried to work out the bug, there was a moment where I just wanted to throw the bloody machine out the window. I've joked for years that technology has always promised to make life more convenient, and I'm still waiting for that day. But honestly, if we didn't have technological advancements, we'd all be cleaning our clothes by going down to the river and beating them on rocks. And who's got time for that? So there are days when I myself am a bit of a Luddite, but mostly I'm a fan who believes you can and should take advantage of technology, but you also have to be aware of the downsides and mitigate the risk.
SPEAKER_00One of the reasons I'm here in Japan is to overcome being like that, Dan, and see how all this incredible technology can do the right thing. And I wanted to ask you, who know a hell of a lot about this. Everybody's talking about AI, AI, AI. I live near San Francisco, and you drive through the highway in San Francisco, and every single, I mean all of them, every single billboard has got something about AI on it. It's quite extraordinary. So obviously it's something that is a huge part of all of our lives, but I'd like to ask you who knows what you know what you're talking about, how do you feel that AI can be for good, Dan?
SPEAKER_01Let me preface my response by saying I'm a communicator. I do not speak math. I'm a writer, but I've I've had the privilege of having a front row seat to watch the dawn of the internet, actually. And then I watched the dawn of digital mobile communications, and now uh I also have a front row seat once again to see the emergence of AI and how it is infusing into daily life. And it it AI, like the personal computer, like the internet, like digital mobility, like the steam engine long ago. It is another disruptive technology, and our history is filled with these things. Uh, and they're always pretty spooky at the first, and then they they grow into things that can be used for wonderful purposes and used for horrible purposes, and it's up to the to people to figure out how do we best use this technology. With AI in particular, it can do fantastic things. I I've been working with the the generative AI for uh you know a while now, and and it is amazing how much it increases my productivity. But you also have to learn how to do it, and you can learn, any any person can learn how to use it properly and use it well, and that will bode well for your career in the future. Let me just say that. But it it would almost no matter what you're doing, take some time to learn how to use generative AI. Uh, it will serve you well for years to come. The thing about the technology is it holds all of this vast potential. Um, to it can be incredibly useful for sustainability, for healthcare, for many purposes. Uh, it is an answer to many of the most significant challenges that humanity and the world faces today. At the same time, it because it depends on these enormous data centers. Uh, you hear about the billions and tens of billions and hundreds of billions of dollars. People even talk about trillions of dollars of infrastructure. Well, that's that's all electron-based, meaning it's electricity right now. So it consumes enormous amounts of electricity. Uh, that is a it's a big challenge for a lot of areas in the United States, I know from personal experience, but it's also, I'm sure, an issue uh as these monstrous data centers are built around the world. Uh, and there are solutions for it, but you they have to be intentional. You you have to build a sustainability mindset from the front. It's not something that that you can bolt on afterwards. You you need to build AI solutions with sustainability from the very beginning. Uh one of the things that you hear a lot about is uh some of these massive data centers are talking about building modular nuclear reactors. Okay, you know, that's one way to go about it. But there's a future solution, and you're actually going to see this uh at the RD conference. Many organizations are are working on this now where you can get uh electricity from space. And what what that is is a you put a solar array somewhere around 300, I think it's 340 miles, is where it's in geosynchronous orbit above the earth. But those solar arrays will then beam either using microwaves or lasers, but they will beam electricity back to the earth. And and of course, when you're in space, you don't have to worry about clouds. The sun is always shining in space. So that's just one example of the things that technology can do and how important technology will be to the future, and to bring it back to thin ice. I think these conversations about what's the challenge, what's the solution, and it's humanity's caring plus humanity's capability with technology is where the solution will come from.
SPEAKER_00I love that, Dan. And and uh next time I see you in person, I'll I'll take a good uh lesson on how I can use AI in my own mission. And uh you'll remember, listeners, that the third thin iced episode we had was with my son Barney from the rainforest. And I was speaking to him today uh prior to our conversation, Dan, and he was talking about how AI is really, really helping his mission out there, restoring the oldest rainforest in the world, uh, working with local indigenous groups. Uh, really, he he's very excited about it, and you know, he really has a go at his father for being rather old-fashioned and not using it yet. But I said to him, I said, look, you know, why do you think I'm in Japan? I'm here to learn about these things. And uh he's using it a lot in his mission, the climate force mission in the oldest rainforest in the world. And I I also would say personally that it's it's always been hard for me at the beginning of all of this. And as you say, you know, whether it be steam engines, the telephone, uh, you know, Wi-Fi, the worldwide web, all these things. But I do find it important that we all as human beings are more accountable as we're using AI, and let's be honest, in the Western world to make our lives easier, to possibly make more money, to do things easier and more effectively and all efficiently and all those things. But I think that we need to be accountable, as you say, Dan, because a lot of the energy right now that's coming from powering data centers is still running on fossil fuels. So I think that all of us, as we can now choose airlines that are doing much better on environmental issues, I think eventually people need to choose data centers, choose uh the providers of all these things, because they're doing the right thing with data centers, running them on renewable energy. And also we've got to remember the backup energy for data centers. Because imagine if you know the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow, and there's no renewable energy to power your data center, and everybody's sort of going online. Um, backup power is important for data centers. And I think that we need to think that the impacts that we can have through wanting more and more data could affect people in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on an island and they find they're swimming from their house or in the Maldives or in Bangladesh. I think it's important we we are accountable for that in some way.
SPEAKER_01Responsibility and accountability are incredibly important words. Well, let's let's start wrapping this up. I have enjoyed the discussion with you about technology and sustainability and look forward to more. But we will be doing some more recordings while you're in at our exciting, Dan.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you you've been there, you know where I'm going. It's quite a stunning, extraordinary place. And through some of our team members, I'm hoping to sit down with them. It's been fantastic just to have a one-to-one, Dan. You're a great friend and such a fantastic supporter to make thin ice happen. Without you, it wouldn't be happening. But we'll be doing some some recordings with it with uh a few team members from Antarctica live, live, I repeat, via Starlink, uh back to you, Dan, in Dallas. Uh, and I'm really looking forward to that. And most importantly, in all of this, we intend to have a really positive, strong, exciting message, especially for young people, coming out from the ice station, with, of course, that focus on 2041, because it's coming up now to 15 years until 2041, when the world will start to decide on the future of the last great wilderness left on Earth. And you and I are all out with thin ice to make sure we have the sense to leave it alone.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited about sharing with our listeners from Antarctica with you as soon as possible. I'll be in Dallas like uh like I am on most of these episodes. But I wanted to close with, in addition to thanking you, Robert, as always, for your time. Here in North America, we will be celebrating Thanksgiving later this month. Uh, and whether you celebrate that holiday or not, I hope that this is my message to our listeners. I hope that you have much to be grateful for. Please know that Rob and I are grateful for you. If you enjoy the show and you want to help protect the wild, please tell your friends to give us a like and be sure we're viewed we are still in the early days of den ice, but we we truly, truly appreciate it. Until next time, keep worthwhile, be kind.