One of the biggest lessons that we've learned is that effective solutions are not Xero sum. Protecting elephants doesn't need to come at the cost of people's livelihood. And in fact, the two things actually can rise together.
SPEAKER_02Hello everyone, and welcome to Thin Ice. I'm Dan Smith, and my co-host Robert Swan will join us in a moment. In today's episode, we're going to talk about Indian elephants, the consequences of habitat fragmentation, and how people who love people and elephants are creating ways for both species to coexist and thrive. These creatures, with the scientific name of Elephus Maximus indicus, grow to 6 to 11 feet tall at the shoulder, can be 21 feet long, that's about six meters, and they can weigh five tons. To paraphrase an old joke about 900-pound gorillas, where does a five-ton elephant eat? Anywhere it wants to. And that's the problem. In truly wild areas, elephants eat tree bark, roots, leaves, small stems. They're also fond of human-cultivated crops, including bananas, rice, and sugarcane. An adult can eat 150 kilograms of food every day, about 300 pounds or more. And when they get into a farmer's field, and we're talking about subsistence farmers, not industrial agriculture, one elephant can wipe out a farming family's entire livelihood in a single night. These foraging raids sometimes are met with retaliatory violence, and you can't really blame the farmers for fighting for their livelihoods and families. Fortunately, humans are finding better ways, a balanced middle path that respects humans and elephants. Now, having introduced the elephants in the fields and forests, let's welcome the Swan on the line, Robert Swann. Hey Robert, where in the world are you these days, and what have you been up to since our last episode?
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm in actually in France today, Dan, and again, you know, I'm seeing forest fires and all kinds of problems here. But I've been doing some cycling, getting fit because in December I'm going back to where you came with me, to Union Glacier in Antarctica, for our Ice Station mission, which is all about uh promoting our education program for five to 11-year-olds, uh 2041 school. So I'm getting ready for that. I've been in Australia supporting Barney. It was wonderful that we had him on the podcast, on the last podcast, but some great results already from the podcast, Dan, because Barney and I were contacted by a very good friend of ours, Jason Flesher, and he invited wait for it, Barney and I to go on a ship back to the area of Antarctica that we discussed and went over with William Fenton on episode one and two. I have not been back there, Dan, for 40 years. So we'll see where we set off for the pole. We'll be visiting Captain Scott's hut. We'll go to where our hut once stood. And even more poignant, uh, we will be floating on a ship above where, God bless her, Southern Quest sank. So a huge result from episode one and episode two from the podcast. So I'm really excited to do that, and I probably won't get the chance to ever go again. So great stuff, Dan. That's what I've been up to.
SPEAKER_02With this episode, we're going to India. You were recently there recording a video for the NTT Data Sustainability Office. And at this point, I do need to give a disclosure that while Thin Ice is a private production of Rob and myself, uh, I am employed by NTT Data. I work in external communications and AI is my beat there. NTT Data also sponsors Rob, and he was in India on a project for NTT Data recording a video. And that reminds me that you've been to India before, but one of your great adventures was bicycling across India. Before we get to our guests, can you tell us a little bit about that adventure in India and how it shapes your feelings towards the subcontinent?
SPEAKER_01Well, India is possibly just my number one country. I love it. And uh they are an empire in the making, they are a hugely influential nation, and they will, I hope, get behind the preservation of Antarctica in 16 years' time. And as we all know, Dan, you've heard me say this and you'll hear me say it again, that if we use more renewable energy in the real world in countries like India, there'll be no need to go and exploit Antarctica for good old fossil fuels. So I set off, I think about 10 years ago, round India on a bicycle, which trust me, Dan, was far more dangerous on Indian roads than walking to the South Pole in my underpants. I have to be honest in saying that. But uh I went round India to visit schools, colleges, and universities. And I felt it was important, especially as an Englishman, that I was relevant to the young people at the colleges. And had I arrived in a sort of white limousine wearing a white suit, you know, perhaps uh memories of the British Empire, I'm awfully sorry about that. Uh, it probably would have gone down badly. But, you know, an Englishman, very red in the face, arriving on his bicycle, certainly got their attention. And I spent a lot of time there working with people. We've taken, I think, nearly 200 young Indian entrepreneurs to Antarctica. Many of them have gone back to do amazing things. Paris Lumba, he started global Himalayan expedition. So a huge association with India before my recent visit.
SPEAKER_02That brings us to the purpose of your recent visit and to our guest today. I would like to introduce Gory Balkar, uh, who is the global head of corporate social responsibility for NTT data. She's based in Mumbai, and that's where she is today. Gori and I have been friends for a very long time. She was an intern at Perot Systems when I was doing executive communications there. I left. She stayed with the company, and Perot Systems eventually, through a series of acquisitions, became part of NTT Data. So I'm delighted to speak with Gorey again and welcome to Thin Ice, Gori.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much, Dan. It's fantastic to be here with you guys.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we appreciate your time. I I know that it's late on a Friday evening for you, so let's let's get to it and address the elephant in the room, because that is the topic of our podcast today, is elephants in India. And and I know that uh Gory, elephants are an iconic species, uh, especially for India. But can you tell us a little bit about the situation and what Rob was doing and what what you were doing regarding elephants and trying to find a balance between thriving populations of elephants and growing populations of humans?
SPEAKER_00You know, Rob was there for a very special project, and it's something that's been close to all of our hearts. NTT Data has had this partnership with WWF that is helping conserve elephants in the northern part of India, which shares this very close border to Nepal. Now, all of this happened in the year of COVID when humans on the streets were lesser, and suddenly the elephants started coming out from Nepal over onto the Indian side. That's when people realized that there was a strong need to build an elephant corridor.
SPEAKER_02Before we go further, let me position the action geographically. Gowri is based in Mumbai, a city on the Arabian Sea on the west coast of India. And if you still call it Bombay, then it's time to catch up with the times. It's Mumbai. And on occasion, you'll hear street sounds from Mumbai, and I think it's cool to hear the ambient noise of urban life. Meanwhile, the elephant balancing project we're talking about is 2,800 kilometers, or roughly 1,300 miles, to the east in far northeast India in the state of Assam. Assam is famous for Assam tea and silk, and about 31 million humans call Assam home, along with Indian rhinoceros, wild water buffaloes, pygmy hogs, tigers, and lots of species of birds. Our friends, the Indian elephants. NTT Data is supporting the work of the World Wildlife Fund, or WWF for short, in the region. Back to Gary.
SPEAKER_00Now let me give you some context on the problem. The focus in India and many parts of the world actually has been on conservation, and rightly so. And that has led to a massive improvement in numbers in several wildlife species. However, in India, the population of people today is 1.4 billion people, and that is expected to hit 1.7 billion by 2040. Now, 65% of this population lives in the rural regions and shares its land with forests and wildlife. So obviously, there are going to be conflicts that are coming up when everybody is trying to fight for the same piece of land. So that's the real problem that is being faced in India. And WWF is doing a fantastic job in finding resolutions, and Rob was there to cover all of it. And we had a fantastic time, and Rob was an amazing guest, you know, from bicycles to taking umbrellas and walking into the monsoons in India.
SPEAKER_02Rob, what was your initial thought when you heard about this project?
SPEAKER_01Well, I feel that people, as Gory often says, that you know, people don't really understand the enormity of India and the difficulty that people, villagers, who are very, very poor people, how are they dealing with this?
SPEAKER_02In preparing for this episode, Rob told me that when his mother was born in 1915, the world population was around 1.6 billion people. 110 years later, that's close to the population of India all by itself, as we heard from Gowrie. And the global population today is 8 billion humans. These are staggering data points that drive home the facts about habitat loss that has accompanied Homo sapien success.
SPEAKER_01What's extraordinary about India is that in so many countries, the first thing that people go to is violence towards wildlife. But in India, there is a respect, there's a deep empathy with wildlife. And I just thought this is really interesting. And I think that if you start with human wildlife conflict, it's almost like you've got to the battle, you've got to the war. And I felt that it would be very interesting to go and see the balance between human and wildlife. And I love elephants, and I just felt that it was an interesting moment to go and see how technology can actually assist this human wildlife balance. And it was just really, really interesting to me personally, and a real challenge to go out there and try not to just sort of go and say a lot of words and then leave, but to try and really understand what it's like to be a villager there, what it's really like. I mean, obviously I can't speak to the elephants, but you know, to really understand both sides of the equation. So I was really excited to go, and without embarrassing her, Gori was just the most fantastic setup person, logistics person, educated me about all of this and gave me the best umbrella I've ever had in my life. And I'll tell you a story about that at the end.
SPEAKER_00But Rob, thank you for bringing a very good point about how India differs uh in comparison with a lot of the other places across the world. You know, it's a very interesting paradox that, you know, while Asian elephants were used in warfare in India, and elephants were domesticated in India.
SPEAKER_02In fact, humans first captured and tamed Indian elephants about 4,000 years ago. That seems to be the consensus. And rulers on the ancient subcontinent kept elephants and even used them in warfare. But the human connection goes much deeper. Indian elephants are ancient cultural icons in the region and have been designated as the national heritage animal of India and the national animal of Thailand and Laos. An estimated 20 to 25,000 Indian elephants are left in the wild.
SPEAKER_00The paradox is that there is uh an Indian mythological text called the Arthashastra that emphasizes the importance of conserving elephants, which is the earliest ever document that talks about conservation of elephants. And in fact, in India, elephants are sacred, they're linked to the god Ganesha. So when an elephant dies, even accidentally or for any reason, thousands of people will gather in mourning. This tells you that it isn't just biology, it's culture, it's spirituality, it's it's identity. And that's what really is the difference in India. And and I think with that context, these interventions are going to make a huge difference in a country like India.
SPEAKER_01I I couldn't agree more. And what I saw there, Gory knows, but what I saw there, Dan, was just extraordinary that what the WWF are doing and supported by NTT data, they're they're helping the villagers help themselves. And they built these incredible watchtowers, which are above the fields, and literally it's like being on the front line of a battle because across the other side of the fields from the watchtower, you can see where there's the line of the forest, and where the elephants, who are very clever by the way, they never come in the day, where the elephants at night have a quick checkout, look across and say, Hey, you know, I think I'll go and I'll go into that field or I'll do this. And the villagers, all volunteers, no one's paid, are up in these watchtowers watching carefully at night. And when they see the elephants making a bit of an attack on the fields, they fire up their searchlights, they make a lot of noise, and hopefully head the elephants off at the pass. It's it's dangerous too. Elephants aren't going to look at a sign saying, Don't please eat my food, they're just going to say, Hey, there's some nice bananas there or some nice maize there, let's go and have something to eat. So it's really, really interesting and very inspiring to see what the villagers are doing. And I think to echo that whole idea of culture as well, is that when when things go wrong, when an elephant goes through a villager's field or destroys some building or destroys something, there's no rescue services, there's no femur as you have in the United States of America, where people are going to come in and help people who who've been deprived of their livelihood. Often these people start a spiral, literally, down to starvation. There's nothing there to back them up. So you've got this extraordinary feeling of we want to do the right thing for the elephants, as Gary said, it's part of our culture, but at the same time, we don't want to starve to death. And I saw some staggeringly interesting things that people were doing, and the WWF are saying, okay, what do elephants hate most in life? And they really don't like mint, and they don't like a couple of other crops, they hate them. So the elephants say, Oh, we're not going to eat that. So they're planting these things in between where the elephants are and where the villagers are, and making helping the villagers make a really good living out of selling those crops, and it also stops the elephants coming towards the village. So it's really like a game of chess, and I was so inspired by people who have nothing with such spirit to really try and find this balance. It was amazing.
SPEAKER_02Balance is the key word that I have discovered in researching this story. And I like how you positioned it, Rob, that there is a conflict, but let's shift the focus to finding the balance. And they're just trying to survive like everyone else. And at the same time, you have the villagers who are working hard, and an elephant could come in and wipe out a whole season's worth of crops in an evening. How are villagers feeling about this new approach to a balanced relationship with elephant wildlife?
SPEAKER_00And it's it's also about the approach that has been taken with the villagers. At the end of the day, you know, it's it's really about right tools, right policies, right incentives, sometimes right insurance models that can help people, you know, lose, you know, decrease their losses while fostering uh more sympathy. So Rob mentioned a couple of things. Uh he spoke about uh the Gajmitra programs, and I'd like to expand a little bit about that. So in states of India like Odisha and Assam, which which are the uh the eastern states of India, Gajmitras are basically friends of the elephants, and they act as the first responders where they go out, warn communities when elephants are nearby, and they guide elephants also. They have they've been trained to guide elephants away from human settlements, sometimes using very simple methods like torchlights or firecrackers or other things, uh, you know, that that can redirect them. So that's one great example. In addition to that, there are other policy measures that are also coming in place. Lots of nonprofits across India in the rural regions are working to bring solar lights and solar energy, especially in places which are known for wildlife conflict. You know, imagine uh your your the perimeter of your house being lit up by solar lamps, and elephants pause a moment before they they think about you know going into that space. So simple things like this have led to a massive reduction in the conflicts that have been happening. There's another example actually that I want to cite, and and this was this is back from 2018, and I'd I'd seen it in one of the documentaries. There's a state uh again in Assam where farmers planted Napier, grass, and paddy, which are the two elephant favorites, on buffer lands. So these are the buffer lands outside the actual agricultural zone. And suddenly these elephants have their own dining space. The crop rates have dropped by 80%, and not a single human or elephant have died in those villages since 2018. The farmers are ecstatic because they've harvested paddy for the first time in years in that year where they when they put this uh resolution in place. So it's coexistence. That's that's important, and people understand it as well. And again, going back to that cultural aspect, people understand elephants are important, they are an integral part of uh of our culture, of the religion, and all of that. So there's no two ways about, you know, there is any other way to this. They know that there has to be action taken, and so they're all on board.
SPEAKER_02You use the term coexistence, and I'd actually jotted that in my notes because coexistence is hard work. It it takes intent to coexist with species and and learn to share the planet. It it it seems, at least in many parts of the world, that sustainability has taken a back seat. That as Rob said, sustainability is is in recession. I I've heard him say that that phrase. And and it strikes me as important that individuals need to continue their commitment. You know, regardless of what happens, I will remain committed, Rob will remain committed, I know Gari will remain committed to finding ways to coexist and that we can all thrive. Even though life itself is competition, species work better when they cooperate. They Thrive better when there's a sense of cooperation. And I wanted to talk a little bit, not so much about elephants now, Gore, but just to shift the conversation to the concept of corporate social responsibility. As individuals continue their personal commitments, what is the purpose or what is the concept of corporate social responsibility and how do you apply that as a professional?
SPEAKER_00Dan, this is probably one of my favorite questions. Because I, as you know, I started my career with you as an intern, and 15 years later, here I am with multiple job shifts. And finally, a couple of years ago, somebody said there's an open rec for uh corporate social responsibility. And I thought, what a great fit! My love for marketing and my love for being able to do good. So at this point, I have the best job where I'm thinking about how do I spend the company's money to do good. And I love being a part of NTT data because truly, you know, it's it's in our DNA, it's in our everything that we are trying to do. As you're aware, our sustainability focuses in three areas with planet, action, prosperity that leads to creating more business solutions that are sustainable and people. But CSR today plays such an important role in doing right by the society that we live and operate in. It's very easy to keep taking and taking and taking, but to pause and think about how to meaningfully give back to the world that we're taking so much from is so important. And I'm glad that I have the opportunity to take on that role and to do that job. It's also about creating an army of volunteers who start thinking in that sense and moving in that direction to truly make a difference in this world because at the end of the day, as you said, we have one planet, one home, and it's our job to conserve it.
SPEAKER_02One of the things that your job gave you the opportunity to do, like me, my job gave me the opportunity to engage with Rob Swann, uh, and it has been a life-changing experience. How was it? This question is to Gori, how was it working with Rob in India on the ground? What are your thoughts of just that experience?
SPEAKER_00It was fantastic. I watched you go on the expedition with Rob. I kind of followed all of that so closely. And before, before that, I knew nothing about what was happening up in the polls. But meeting Rob was just one of the best experiences. And more than that, learning from him, learning to think differently about solutions, learning to think about how do you talk about it or how do you drive awareness about it. He brought a fresh new perspective, and that was fantastic. And more than anything, just watching his infectious passion towards just going out. I don't know how much time he really spends on his home and why he has a home, but all of that is just so inspiring here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he has that effect. And speaking of, Rob, let me address this question to you. What are your takeaways from this latest trip to India? And what can individuals outside of India do to help with the balance of human civilization and wildlife?
SPEAKER_01Well, Gore, thanks so much for all those kind words. It's amazing, and I think it reflects really what I feel about it, because no one in this podcast yet has mentioned the technology and what NTT data are doing with the technology at WWF. And most people would say that up front, but no one said anything about that yet. So we must say something about that at the end, Gory, of what of what you're supporting them to do with their technology. But what I took away from this was it's it's a bit like a line in the sand standing up on those um watchtowers with with the fantastic villagers looking out across their fields, knowing that in front of us was a whole lot of turmeric that they can make good money out of, by the way. And elephants hate eating turmeric big time. So just being there, seeing a line in the sand, a line in the forest. And I think that it's so important that we share things. Obviously, we have to develop, obviously, we have to use resources of the planet, but it was very, very simple to me to create balance, and without balance, we are not going to survive that long on little old planet Earth. So I came away with inspiration, especially from the villagers themselves, and you know, as in as in any society, let's just get it straight, and Gory knows I I feel like this, it it's the women in the villages who really you know are on it. And I was very privileged to have a sort of meeting with the women of a particular village, and obviously, you know, my Hindi and language is not too good, but we had a fantastic time, and one particular lady stood out to me, she asked some wonderful questions, and I'd had this umbrella given to me by Gori from NTT Data, and I thought an umbrella out there in these fields is a big, big issue to get out of the burning sun, to have some shade. So I presented my umbrella to this absolutely fabulous, powerful, strong woman, and you know, she immediately burst into tears, and it was just a very special moment. So I took away a hundred percent hope and solutions and a feeling that often, yes, things are in recession. Let's not go into reasons why, as far as sustainability, climate change, but I came away with a real sense of feeling inspired by what other people were doing. And that is a lasting thing for me.
SPEAKER_02Corey, is there anything that you haven't said yet that you would like to share with the audience before we close?
SPEAKER_00I know Rob also wanted us to mention a little bit about the technology that we're supporting in these areas. Would you like me to talk about that, Dan?
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. We'd love to hear about that.
SPEAKER_00As you know, and you spoke about AI, AI is very critical to us. While we have a huge focus on AI, we've never lost sight of the world that we live in. It's not about replacing people, but it's about solving the real world problems. And technology is really opening incredible doors to research that recognizes elephant calls. We have crime databases that we are using to track uh ivory trafficking, early signs on technologies like WhatsApp, which a lot of the villagers now have mobile phones when things are nearby. So lots of technology that is being used, these thermal cameras that have been installed in the forest that alert the the guards there who can who can then inform uh you know the local people and local authorities. But one of the other major initiatives that NET Data has also supported is the wildlife crime digitization project. And this is with another nonprofit in India called WDI, where we're making wildlife crime data very searchable, we're enabling faster investigation, better intelligence, and ultimately, you know, stronger protection for wildlife and other endangered species, because the real fact is that in India still people think that they can get away with this stuff. And by bringing stronger compliance in place, things are going to get harder, and people will think twice before they go out and commit these crimes against wildlife and against forests. So it's so important that we as NTT data, being a technology company, find a way to get involved from a technology standpoint, and and I love the fact that we are doing that. One of the biggest lessons that we've learned is that effective solutions are not zero-sum. Protecting elephants doesn't need to come at the cost of people's livelihood. And in fact, the two things actually can rise together. We have one planet, so away from all of this, how do you still contribute? And how do you make the right choices? It's it's it's about all of the choices that you make, the products you buy, the forests you support or deplete, or even the leaders you choose to work for sometimes. It's about reducing demand for unsustainable crops like palm oil that will truly help protect the Asian elephant habitats. Again, the simplest answer, of course, always has been supporting global conservation groups, whether it's in Africa or India, because those are the two known elephant species that we know. But most importantly, it's about you know supporting biodiversity around you. Protecting a pollinator garden in your city is linked to protecting elephant corridors in Assam, because both are woven by the same threads of life.
SPEAKER_02Woven together by the threads of life. What a beautiful thought to end on. I want to thank Gori for joining us, and let's give a shout-out to the World Wildlife Fund for everything they do to help elephants, people, and the entire menagerie on Earth. Robert and I also want to thank you for spending your time with us. Our goal is to produce one show a month, which can be challenging, and we're off pace right now, to tell you the truth, because of our respective schedules. But our purpose is to encourage protection of the wild by sharing stories from the wild. Our primary goal is protecting Antarctica, and the best way to do that is to protect and restore the wild at a planetary level. Finally, the video Rob shot in India for NTD Data's Sustainability Office is mostly targeting employees, but it should become available externally at some point, and we'll share a link when that happens. Thin Ice is a production of Robert Swan and Dan Smith. Editing is handled by yours truly, so please don't blame Rob. And as always, sincere thanks to Bernadette de Seattle for managing our conflicted schedules. Until next time, my friends, keep Earth wild, be kind, and chill out.