Laure de Panafieu

However insignificant you think a change can be, it isn't.

Dan Smith

Ahoy there, and welcome aboard Thin Ice. I'm Dan Smith, your co-host for today's episode, which is all about sailing ships and pebbles. Yes, tiny rocks that won't necessarily rock the boat, but our guest today uses pebbles to make ripples on behalf of Antarctica and the climate. We'll be speaking with Laura de Punafou, a Singapore-based senior leader with Linkladers, the global law firm. Laura sailed with Robert Swan on his Antarctica voyage in 2022, and she's joining again for Rob's next voyage this November. Before Laura visited Antarctica, though, climate just wasn't her thing. She has a demanding role at the law firm, and when she read bad news about the climate, she would feel anxious, but didn't know what she could do about it. So she would turn the page and move on. I know that feeling, and perhaps you do too. Antarctica, though, when you get to know it, tends to bring a new kind of clarity to one's thinking. For Laura, she came home with a pocket full of pebbles she had gathered during a beach cleanup at Ushua, Argentina, and those tiny rocks sparked a big question that Lore, like so many of us, had been avoiding, namely, what can I do about sustainability? What Lore discovered is that we don't always need a boulder to make waves. I'm eager to introduce you to her, but first let's say hello to my thin ice co-host and dear friend, Robert Swann. And Rob, please set the scene by telling us what your Antarctic voyages are meant to achieve.

Rob Swan

Well, Dan, wonderful to be back online with you. I mean, these expeditions, Dan, are all about the preservation of Antarctica. And so people who come, we hope, go back home as champions to make sure we have the sense to leave Antarctica as a natural reserve land for science and peace. However, we also want people to go back and have impact on sustainability for our planet with their families, their companies, their communities, and of course their countries. And it's not too much to say that when people come with us on a 2041 expedition, it is a life-changing experience. No question. And that's not because of me or the team, it's because of Antarctica. And sadly, as with everything in life, Dan, as you know, momentum begins to fall away. And I'm so so happy to be here sitting next to Lore, who has been with us to Antarctica. And she's coming again on our November expedition this year. And uh Laura's momentum has never fallen away. She's absolutely incredible.

Dan Smith

Laura, welcome to Thin Ice. You are with Rob in your office in Singapore. And if I'm ever in trouble, you are the person I want in my corner. And honestly, I'm in trouble right now because I've never pronounced your last name correctly. Can you clear that up for me and share a little bit about your role?

Laure de Panafieu

Thank you, Dan and Rob, and I'm very excited to be here with you both today. My surname is pronounced De Panafieu. It's French. I'm actually half French, half Scottish. And just as a by way of a very brief intro, uh, so I head up the employment practice for Link Laters, a global law firm in Asia. And um I have a few hats within the firm. Uh the main one is obviously my day job client work, uh, which is very happy to help you if you need that one day, Dan, with employment issues. Uh, but the other hats that are are very, very interesting and meaningful. One is that I sit on the partnership board of the firm to represent Asia in the Middle East regions. And the others are climate, and that's obviously what we're here to talk about, mental health and DNI.

Dan Smith

You've said that before visiting Antarctica, you had concerns about the environment, but no clear direction or focus on what you could do about it. So let's start there. How did a very busy senior lawyer for one of the most prestigious law firms in the world end up on a climate expedition with Robert Swann?

Laure de Panafieu

Uh so it's a very interesting story, and actually I think it's probably relevant to a lot of people listening, because if you're not a scientist or an environmentalist or a politician or member of the UN, you know, you likely have a day job like me, and uh you read a lot of news on climate and how this planet is going south, and you turn the page most often because it's just depressing, and there are depressing news everywhere, and there's nothing you can do about this. So this was where I was before going to Antarctica. And the reason I went was my husband, who is in impact investing, decided that for his 50th birthday he would want something special, and he heard about Vob's expedition to Antarctica. So I said, You choose your present, you tell me what you'd like, and I'll make sure I get this right. And he came back, he said, I know what I'd like, Laura, and it's a trip. And I'm the traveller in the couple, so I thought I do enjoy the birthday present, fantastic. But then he carried on and he said, Except I'm going on my own, which I thought, well, how come I'm not going on a trip for your 50th birthday? And he said two things that just really stuck with me. One was, well, look, it's a climate change expedition, climate is not your thing, and you're too busy, you're at Link Lates, you work all the time. So, you know, you just pause here and it really hits you in the face. And yes, climate was not my thing, and I thought, well, maybe it should be a bit more. I had no idea what was about to happen. And of course, the second thing, you work all the time and you won't have the time to drop your job to come. Well, I mean, if you can't drop your job to go with your husband on his 50th birthday on what he would like to do, you clearly have your priorities wrong. So I did go.

Dan Smith

Bram, do you remember meeting Laura and her husband for the first time?

Rob Swan

I remember very clearly meeting Thierry and Laura. I think we'd seen each other on Zoom, but meeting for the first time in Ushuaia, which was the place we were heading south from on our ship. It was right in the middle of COVID, so everybody was wearing masks, everybody was having tests every five minutes about COVID, and there were these two extraordinary people in their masks. I just remember thinking, what a marvelous thing that they're together on this expedition.

Dan Smith

Lawyers are trained to manage risks, solve problems, keep things under control. But Antarctica is very quick to let you know that you are not in control. And Laura, I I read your LinkedIn post about your experience after the fact, and you said that you had to let go. What did you mean by that?

Laure de Panafieu

I guess our skills as lawyers is to find solutions to problems, and clearly uh there isn't an easy fix to this one. So letting go meant to accept that I wasn't going to be in control, that I was facing something far, far, far greater than I knew or could comprehend. And I think, you know, you just sit there feeling quite overwhelmed by by the scale of it, by the beauty of this continent, which is just extraordinary. And if I can just pick two things that uh really stayed with me in terms of apprehending what was happening and why I couldn't just go back to my day job when I came back from it. Um the first thing was the temperature, and so one day we heard that the temperature, the ship, you know, we had this information that the temperature in parts of Antarctica was 40 degrees Celsius higher than the usual at this time of year. And I thought, surely I have misheard. It's not 4-0, it's 1-4 with 14, which is high enough already. So I checked and no, the answer was 4-0, 40 degrees higher. It should have been minus 50 in parts of Antarctica, it was minus 10. And so when you do these, you know, when I do now my talks with clients or with our teams, I just say, well, add plus 40 to wherever we sit in the world, and we'll all be dead. So that was the first data point that was completely overwhelming, but is happening right now and was happening back in 2022. And the second one was was the rain. So Antarctica is a desert, and it's a desert that's meant to be around minus 50 or minus 20, but certainly not zero plus. And one day we were on these zodiacs and we all had life jackets that, if you fell in the water, um, and we had such heavy gear, these life jackets would pop because at the contact of water they would just pop up like an airbag, and you would float and be picked back up. And nobody fell in the sea that day, but all the life jackets popped up because it was raining so much that the life jackets thought we're in we're in water here. And so we all came back on ship with our orange things flared up. And um, and I remember Rob calling the camera crew saying, We're going to film this. I've been in you know on this continent for over 40 years, and I've never ever ever seen rain like that. So, you know, it is real and it is uh quite overwhelming, but that's why we all have to do something about it.

Dan Smith

Rob, as Laura said, Antarctica is a desert, and precipitation there has historically been some form of ice, not wet rain. What was your reaction when you saw actual raindrops for the first time in almost 40 years of visiting the continent?

Rob Swan

Well, I felt rain, a bit of slushy snow, but not proper rain, Dan, ever. And actually, that's a huge issue now in Antarctica, not just for us who are privileged to go and see it, but it's actually affecting wildlife that penguins are getting their feathers frozen because of water, that it is not salt water, but salt water doesn't freeze as much as fresh water, all kinds of issues, and to see it for the first time, proper rain, it was huge for me. But it also inspired me again and again and again to say, right, we've got to keep working on this. It's like the canary in the mind, Dan. What we're seeing is is trying to tell us something and we should listen.

Dan Smith

What is Antarctica saying, Rob? And how do people tend to respond?

Rob Swan

I think people feel very hopeful that they've seen this in pictures, they've seen it on film, but to actually see it with your own eyes for the first time, people it goes into people to say it really is here, and it's so big, and we all own it. It's the last chance we have, and it looks so pristine, and immediately within seconds, people feel connected to it to say, hang on, we need to leave this alone, and we all own it. That that's the reaction of every single person that sees it for the first time, and I love that moment beyond anything, Dan. It's my it's what inspires me the most to see people's faces when they see it for the first time. Absolutely marvelous.

Dan Smith

Laura, how did you respond to Antarctica?

Laure de Panafieu

So it's a long process, and I guess to add to what Rob was just describing, you know, you stand there, and I do remember the first time a ship arrived on the continent, and we saw that ice, and it was misty, a misty morning. And I remember standing as well a few times on my own, just watching the landscape, the the wildlife, and you're just in awe, you're quite speechless. It takes time to process, and and so you you it's almost like you need to digest this thing that is far too big, but so so so beautiful, and and that you know we have a duty to preserve this planet and make it better. The way that you know you just try and make a difference when you come back, um, I think really box down to just just taking the time to process it, but then listening to what Rob was saying, which is look, you go back and um you make sure you share your story. So I sat in that quarantine hotel room back in Singapore thinking, okay, well, you know, I need to make sure I share my story, and uh however mixed up and and all still convoluted it may seem, but and there was a mix of letting go, overwhelming, and then my pebbles.

Rob Swan

Tell us about the pebbles. Well, let me just interject a bit here, Dan, because we were down uh with Barney, and you know what he's like about collecting rubbish. He's amazing.

Dan Smith

And let me interject into Rob's interjection. Barney is his son, Barney Swan, who is a South Pole veteran in his own right. Barney's primary mission, however, is regenerating a damaged section of Australia's Dane tree rainforest. He has an admirable habit of helping clean up the mess that humans leave in our wake.

Rob Swan

We cleared a lot. And suddenly I saw Siri and Law picking up pebbles, and I thought, well, maybe this is some sort of French thing, you know, that people take a pebble from the beach, and I was wondering what is going on here. We didn't talk about this when I saw all the pebbles going into the bag, but it I'm so proud of what you did with those pebbles.

Laure de Panafieu

I remember we were on this beach, it was a beach of pebbles, and a pebble on its own is this little grey rock that looks like nothing, but you add I don't know how many billions of them and it makes a beach, right? And you had add however many billions of people on this earth, and you have a pretty sizable mass. And and then what my husband does with pebbles is he finds the flat ones and he just throws them in the sea to make these ripples. And so I was watching him doing that, I was picking the pebbles, I put them in my pocket. I didn't know what I would do with that, but then and then in that quarantine room in Singapore, when we came back, I had this physical memory and souvenir of down south that was very real to people and just tangible and that they could touch. And it does look like nothing, it is so insignificantly small, but again, if you make it ripple, if you add however many of them, you do have a mass and you do have impact. And so it's become this symbol in the firm for all our offices where I go and I give talks with our clients, with our teams, I always bring a pebble, and it's good we're getting back because I'm my stock is dwindling, and I leave a pebble with each of the offices we've gone to, you know, from the Middle East to Hong Kong, London, New York, Brussels, everywhere, right, where we go. And I just show them and I explain look at this little piece of rock that looks like nothing, but you know, you make it ripple, it will have an impact. And you add a few more and a few more, and it will have a massive impact. And so what's been very moving is that people relate to this pebble. Our security team in London wanted to touch it, then the front of houses in Hong Kong are keeping it under, well, every front of house team are keeping it under a beautiful cave sort of setup that they've done and they keep it under lock so that people don't steal the pebble and they put a little intactica story with it, and it's become a symbol of ripples. Our newsletter is now called Pebble in Asia, and it's our green guide to making a ripple effect in whatever we do in life, so it has had that effect, you know, even though I guess when I picked them up, I had no idea what I would do with them. So it does show however insignificant you think a change can be, it isn't.

Dan Smith

Do you think your story has been a catalyst for change inside Link Leaders?

Laure de Panafieu

I think so, because again, it's just it's real and it's it, I you know, I didn't imagine that it would have an impact. But I can see even clients are just they remember, right? Because I bring my pebble when we do our ESG roundtables and I have it next to me. I have one in front of my laptop in the office. So we all know about this, it's this little piece of rock that reminds us that however small our actions might seem, actually they all matter.

Dan Smith

But I'm curious if there are examples of what's happened as a result of sharing your story.

Laure de Panafieu

One of the sort of real examples is we've created this Asia Environmental Committee, and we just learn from each other. So a good example is our Bangkok office had done this amazing compost initiative, and they were composting their food leftovers. They sent it across. So obviously, Singapore is now doing it, and I bring my compost home three times a week. Uh, China decided to go on a public transport-only initiative, and so we've tried to replicate this elsewhere. Uh, some people in the firm have moved jobs and sent me messages that this was because of all of this, and they decided they want to give more purpose to their lives in their day jobs, and that they have joined organizations which are sort of more directly helping change in the right direction. So that's the firm and our people. And people are very proud, by the way, I should add, right, of doing something and seeing that they add value themselves. It's just actually all positive that we can all make a difference. On the client front, the round tables that we organize and that I lead means that clients have been able to get in the room together to actually learn from each other again, hear what initiatives and innovative solutions others are driving, and just actually collaborate and work together. I've also seen recently a client who asked a question about why did we still care and that to drove an uproar in the room. Uh and actually that person said, No, well, you know what, I I actually obviously I do care, but you're helping me with all of your organizations and your hats to bring this back to my stakeholders. So, you know, in a world where actually some some are taking a back seat, it's very helpful for these conversations to be happening and for big organizations headquartered or with their regional headquarters in Singapore to very much still have their finger on the pulse.

Rob Swan

I think one of the greatest successes that she has had, and I've tried to support that, is that it's the it's the real engine room of companies that she's got to, and also in the firm. It's the people who are on the front desk, it's the IT people, it's the wonderful team that make tea and coffee and prepare and keep the whole engine room of the firm going. It's those people who've got right behind this, and I think if they get behind it, you've got a real win. And I've seen that upfront and very close, but it wasn't an easy journey, and I've seen I've seen the results of it.

Laure de Panafieu

And if I can add, it's not an easy journey. But look, I was there right before 2022, and I I was turning the page in the newspapers when there were news on climate. So I get it, and I'm certainly not perfect, but I think once we get touched by it, actually, it is very difficult for people not to realize that actually we can all do something about this, and that's the whole point.

Dan Smith

How do you keep throwing pebbles, keep advocating for sustainability and urging people to be good stewards of what they have control over without seeming self-righteous on the one hand or becoming exhausted and depressed on the other?

Laure de Panafieu

So look, it it's a good question because it doesn't work all the time, right? And when I came back and I thought actually the first thing I came when that went through my mind when I was completely overwhelmed and trying to digest all of this with these pebbles in my pockets was resign law, just like who cares about employment law and CEO bonuses, just you need to do something better and more relevant with your life going forward and just try and make but more of a difference. Thank goodness the first CEO package that landed on my desk was the CEO of a renewable energy platform for one of our clients in Southeast Asia. So I thought, no, no, no, my day job is highly relevant, and so that's what I mean about all of us who are not scientists and environmentalists or politicians in this space is we can all find a way to make our job relevant to this problem and help towards solutions quicker, right? And so that's then why I did not resign from the firm and quite the opposite thought actually, this global law firm has the sort of best client base in the world, right? Across the entire uh continents, whether they're insurers, funds, corporates, we act for all of them. You try and bring them in the room together, and that's what I've done now. So we we have we bring them to the room. Most of the times it works, and um, and actually they're super grateful that we are carrying on with this flag because bringing them in the room enables them to talk in a way that they understand what the others are doing, the challenges, move forward and help move the doll. But sometimes it doesn't work and sometimes. Sometimes people are not interested, or they say, well, surely this is no longer relevant or an issue. And so when that happens, fine, you know, I mean, just move on to the next pebble, the next ripple, and uh and they'll come around. And if they don't, they don't. You can't just take everybody with you. But but I think what drives me and what helps me is that the impact that I see when people actually even are curious but not necessarily convinced, is that once they're they listen and once they're there, they actually do want and and do uh try and make an impact themselves.

Rob Swan

I would also say that it's in order not to be condescending or self-righteous, it's your intention of throwing that pebble. And I've seen Law do this, I try and do it myself, is to have the right intention, not to say, hey, we're right and everybody else is wrong and the planet's falling to bits because of you. It's more like saying we're in this together, how can we come out of this uh with solutions and reminding people, which is what thin ice is all about, is everybody has a story that's tell that story really well, and that story will never become something that's self-righteous or you know, lecturing people to do this, this, and this. You're telling a story and you're including people in it.

Dan Smith

I want to zoom out and see how the world looks from your vantage point in Singapore. What are you seeing in terms of sustainability momentum, sustainability readiness?

Laure de Panafieu

Uh so I'm glad I'm sitting in Singapore at this time, um, I must say, where the whole world is a very, very uneven pace on sustainability because Singapore keeps the course, and Timasek's e-cosperity week has just taken place. And if anything, with with the conflict in Iran, we were expecting less people to fly in. That creates carbon, we all agree, but look, people can then offset properly, and again, if they have the means to do that, we all need to do this. But the point is that they came, right? And they and they reminded everybody about the urgency of the issue, and that it's not just a nice to have. One of the CEOs of the UN Sustainable Energy for All Agency from Africa was on stage and she just reminded everybody, right? This is not just a nice to have. It's a matter of life and death for millions of women in Africa who can't feed their families with clean energy. We all need to hear it, and then we all need to go back and do something about it.

Dan Smith

Rob, what's your view?

Rob Swan

What I've seen here, and I see it live with Law and what she's doing at Link Laters in Singapore, is that people are still pushing on. They do take all these issues seriously. What's happening in China?

Laure de Panafieu

China is obviously still the manufacturing center of the world, um, and on that basis it it puts a lot of carbon in the sky. But China achieved its renewables deployment goals set for 2030 in 2024, right? So when everybody is not reaching their goals and just keep delaying, China achieved them six years ahead of plan. And actually, I was in Shanghai and Beijing to see our teams and clients in October. It's blue skies everywhere. I saw one petrol car, and the owner of that car knows who they are. But literally in 12 days, every engine in the road in Shanghai and Beijing were electric vehicles, whether they were buses, uh, bikes, or cars or trucks. So, you know, it's just it's just incredible what China is doing. They are making sure they're far less dependent on fossil fuels, and that's a really important drive for the rest of the region because Asia is still a huge epicenter in terms of the use of coal. And obviously, it's a part of the world where populations are growing, they're very young, and and it's uh developing economies, and so we do need to make sure that we find a way to uh support these countries developed in a sustainable fashion and not to rely on fossil fuels.

Dan Smith

Rob, I understand you have some news from China.

Rob Swan

China could well be, with their renewables and solar, a huge aspect on the preservation of Antarctica, because they could be the people that make sure that renewable energy is cheaper, if you like, in the real world, so we don't have to go and exploit Antarctica for fossil fuel. So I've been hugely inspired and I've decided it's no good being on the edge of it talking about China, it's best to go in there and do something. So we're planning an expedition up to the Tibetan High Plateau, um, all to do with recycling. There's been lots of plastic that's gone up there, blown by the wind, and to do an expedition with Chinese young people because there's a huge passion amongst Chinese young people on the whole issue of sustainability, which is really, really reassuring to me for the future. So it's time to have Roof of the World Expedition China.

Dan Smith

Do you have a time frame that you're looking for?

Rob Swan

Well, I would say within the next year, year and a half, uh, it's going to be very interesting. It's going to be all to do with adventure and bicycling and kayaking and um trail running and all kinds of excitement because there is a uh a thirst for that amongst Chinese young people now.

Dan Smith

Let's start wrapping this up. And I want to ask Laura, what do you think will be different when you return to Antarctica in November 2026 versus your first visit in 2022?

Laure de Panafieu

Um, so for me it's very clear. It's um we need more business leaders uh engaged and faster because the issue is obviously not going away, but it's it's worse than it was in 2022, and we don't have a lot of time if we want things to head in a better direction. And so we need people in positions of power today to understand that they have a role to play, even if they just think they don't have a role to play, because they're not one of these environmentalists or scientists to make change happen. So we are getting an expedition that has a lot of more senior people uh in business across the world, and I'm really looking forward to accelerating that impact.

Dan Smith

And Rob, we've talked a lot about the next expedition. What we haven't said yet is that this is your last Antarctic voyage as the one who charters the ship and leads the expedition. How are you feeling about it as you close out 25 years of leading dozens of voyages?

Rob Swan

Well, I'm very excited, Dan. I've been doing this uh for some time. And when I first started this, Dan, rewind to our first Thin Ice podcast when we were talking about Southern Quest with William Fenton. Uh, at that stage in the early 80s, there were no tourists that came to Antarctica. None. Now, every year there's over a hundred thousand people who are privileged to go to Antarctica on ships. So, my focus after this expedition is to focus on those people who are going on other people's expeditions and to make videos and to help those hundred thousand people come back and really understand that Antarctica needs to be preserved, to perhaps uh share our 2041 school uh education program for young people. I think that's my role now, and I'm looking forward to this expedition. It won't be the last time I go to Antarctica, but it will be the last time that I'm going on our ship that I charter and that we as a team run. And I'm excited about it uh because somehow it draws a full circle around some of the things we've done, but of course, all of us will move on uh to doing other things that help support Antarctica and of course then I stand.

Dan Smith

Laura, any parting thoughts?

Laure de Panafieu

Uh believe in yourself. You know, I came back with these pebbles, not knowing what to do, and how would I how was I going to be relevant in this world post-Antarctica? I feel so fulfilled and so grateful. I see the impact uh that this has had, not just with me, but with so many others around me. And we can all make impact, and uh it's not just down to others um to do that.

Dan Smith

Well, thank you, Laura. It's been a delight to hear your story. Our listeners can see photos from your expedition and your offices on our website, thinice.earth. By the way, that's our new website we launched recently. As always, thank you, Rob, for being generous with your time. And to our listeners, thanks for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the show, and we'd love to hear your comments and very much appreciate your likes. ThinIce is produced by Rob Swan and Dan Smith with the invaluable assistance of Bernadette Dessiato. I also want to thank Yang U and Abdullah Alwe for their technical help on the Singapore side, and Anne Yang, Madeline Lim, Auntie Pat, and Auntie Ngol for taking care of Rob and Lore in the office. My gratitude is deep, even if my pronunciation is lacking. A big thank you to everyone at Link Laders who has taken Laura's story to heart. Until next time, my friends, keep Earth Wild, be kind, and chill out.

Laure de Panafieu

Keep ripping, everyone.