#3 - Lisa Gamboni: Strengthening Your Voice and Leading with Clarity

In this episode, Sam Bell speaks with strategic advisor Lisa Gamboni about strengthening your voice, holding clarity under pressure, and leading in ways that create space for others to succeed.

Drawing on decades in high-stakes commercial environments, Lisa reflects on self-belief, empathy, and discernment as essential capabilities for clear thinking and grounded leadership. This is a practical conversation about agency, courage, and  effective leadership.

This episode explores:
• Strengthening your voice in complex environments, being your own snowflake: doing “you” (uniquely) 
• Self-belief under pressure, and saying what others won’t
• Calling out bullying
• Developing capability: high performance teams, senior leaders, new consultants
• Deep empathy and natural instinct as core advisory capabilities
• The conditions that let executive teams “make room” for each other
• Lisa's observations of successful, high performance teams and leaders from her time as a senior partner at KPMG, Deloitte, and boutique consultancies, working with private equity firms and businesses across the globe

Guest links:
• Lisa Gamboni: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-gamboni/
• Dealside: https://dealside.com.au/

Chapters:
02:06 Thinking for yourself, and backing your own view
06:50 Empathy and the human context behind performance
10:27 Challenging unacceptable behavior in leadership
15:40 Lisa’s sixth sense in assessing leaders capabilities
24:20 “Big buckets of cold water” to calm inflamed, high-pressure situations
30:10 Telepathy and flow in high performing teams
35:00 The “Mickey Mouse” approach: listening more
38:20 Leadership that makes room for everyone’s success 
43:49 Under pressure: “Do you want the answer or the lesson?”
48:00 Highly valued advisory: one slide, one phrase, one story 

Explore further:
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Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
Subscribe to hear future episodes.

Credits:
Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Melbourne, 16 January, 2026
Natural Genius Podcast https://naturalgenius.com.au

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast. We're here to help you tap into your natural genius. Let's go. I was lucky enough to meet Lisa Gamboni through my sister's ex-boyfriend that she was dating. How's that for a setup? We went on to work together at KPMG and then in her boutique consultancy that was called Global Change Group. That was then bought by Deloitte. So we worked at Deloitte together and then worked again a few steps later together in her newer consultancy called Dealside. Her exceptional gift amongst many is that she can see people's capability and capacity and support that gracefully. She goes into different businesses and assesses their leadership and helps to work out how businesses can grow and achieve their intentions. How is that for a skill? She's also great fun. We've had so many wonderful dinners and experiences through the globe, around the globe. A special, special moment as the pepper crabs in Singapore. She is so fascinating to talk to and talk about tapping her inner wisdom and intelligence. She is uh she's got a lot of natural genius to the work she does. Fantastic intuition about people and a really, really strong business instinct. Enjoy our conversation. Here is Lisa Gamboni. Welcome, Lise Gamboni, to the Natural Genius Podcast. What a treat to be here together. Well, thank you, Sammy. Thank you. Pleasure, my treasure. Um, one of the things that I was reflecting on in preparing for this was your very deep purpose about caring for people and business growth. And it has seen you through decades in amazing places around the world as a strategic advisor. And uh over the last few years, it's been a real pleasure to see you with your uh one of many boutique firms uh called Deal Side. Uh, I wonder if we could start out. Um you must I I've got so many questions about business and all the rest of it, but I just wonder if there's any particular amazing business or personal role models of which you could share any stories that might have shaped the amazing Lisa Gamboni.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

So unsurprisingly, I'm gonna give you a a different answer to that one because I I think the question's a good question, and and I and I but I can tell you the answer, my answer is is no, which is you know, like no, other than other than the obvious, which is you know, um both both my parents were for very different reasons phenomenal, uh phenomenal role models in you know work, life, and play, all factors. Um, and it's you know, for for for very distinct um reasons. And it's not as though I haven't valued leaders um for sure. I have, you know, as I think about I think about I think about three people who I think um truly got me and then gave me a unique maybe piece of advice, hint, something, reassurance, whatever it was, it was right in the moment. I and I'll quickly tell you those, but then I'll tell you one thing. Then I'll tell you why I'm a bit worried about role modelling. Okay, so yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Okay, and and even if you can mention anything about your parents, I would love that.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

I can I can I'll you know, like I I can I can circle back to I can circle back. But I think the you know the the the role models when I reach right, right, right back um from one of our you know even predates us, which is something to be said because we've known each other for a very, very, very long time now. But but you know, I I remember being in a pretty big job for a you know sort of 20 nothing executive, and I was preparing to present a very important piece of work to the board of a very large company, and my peer who was you know quite quite some years older than me, decided that he was going to change what I was going to say to the board 20 minutes before I was going to present to the board. And I can remember this so clearly, thinking how I was struck by you know this. It felt like it was a stress that was an unwelcome distress. I was handling it, but I obviously the look on my face was picked up by my boss who just took me to the corner and said, Lisa, you're not here because you're a sausage maker, right? We can get sausage makers from anywhere in the world that make a perfect sausage again and again and again and again and again. You're not here for that. So whatever you were intending to say, you say, right? And so, and I can remember just being reassured and thinking, I am on the right track, even though it was a different angle to what the more experienced uh executive was probably going to dish out. And I think that was the beginning of me realizing the power of putting it, putting something out there in the right way, but actually honestly being out there and being prepared to say what others may not say because of the context or whatever. And I and I remember feeling that that was something that I had. I remember thinking I I've got, I know I that might be my thing that I can actually do, doing it properly, but I remember that and then and then you know, skip many, many more years down uh down the track in my early years of professional services. And another moment that struck me was I was doing work getting ready to um do probably one of the hardest things I'd ever done in the middle of Russia, to be honest. And I was working something out with the client, and you, you know, like you were part of this, and you might remember this moment, but I remember thinking, why is the client in the US awake all the time? Like he never sleeps. He he's he's this man-mounted and you know, an incredibly impressive individual, and he just never seemed to be sleeping. And then I discovered that he'd just lost his wife to cancer, and of course he couldn't sleep because he didn't want to sleep because he was unhappy. And these are the also the moments where you've got to constantly remember the context of your client. You talked about how I care. I definitely got an overserve of empathy. I don't know why, but I know I did. And honestly, honestly, it was a pain in the ass when I was younger because it was kind of like a gift. You just don't know how you just don't know how you left your gorgeous. But in that, in that moment, when I realized what was happening, it changed everything about how, because we were about to, you know, arrive in Russia and do this very important piece of piece of work. And you know, I'd only met him over the, you know, um virtually. When when he was waiting for me in this funny little Russian airport in the middle of Russia, you know, as I say, standing there like a tower of strength, anybody else would think this guy's bulletproof, but I knew better than that, and it truly changed everything that we did in the days that followed in terms of just how to make him feel his potency without feeling a fraud because he loved his wife so much, he loved, he loved her so much, you know, and and that and that really mattered. So I remember thinking, I I will always remember that night of just realizing what's wrong, there's something not right, that why is he awake, you know, like and just be you know, like really thinking and thinking. And it's not because this idea of being able to separate uh um our lives from our professional impact, you try, you know, how many versions of you do you want to be? You know, like seriously, it's exhausting. That feels like a lot of work to me, right? So, so that that's that that can't be. That can't be. I'm coming to why um, you know, role modeling though, and then and then um I think a third one was sort of a moment when I stepped out of my because I'm very passionate about you know serving clients, as you know, and I take it very, very old, you know, like you know, literally whatever it takes, whatever it takes. Um, but you know, like these days, because I've built a lot of experience, the whatever it takes doesn't take me to midnight, you know, like it's just being thoughtful and actually, you know, uh shot selection more than anything, to be perfectly honest. That that's the efficient way to make, you know, to be to make the client um feel you know, really, really again confident, strong, well placed to do what to do their part, their big lift. But one day, when I again, this was when I was with one of the big firms, I stepped out of that role of being the servant to the client. I because there was something I had to do that was more important than her in that moment, because she was being a terrorist to my people and to her people. Oh, yeah. Blatantly horrifying bullying right in front of my eyes, literally doing taking a blowtorch to the soul and spirit of these people right in front of me. So, what I did was find a way to get her into the boardroom. I locked us in and I gave her full barrel about why everything that she just done was so completely unacceptable. And how dare she use her positional power to destroy people that were only trying to do the right thing and working really, really hard for a third of what she earned, if that, you know, like how dare she, how dare she? Now, so I I I literally did. I it's the only time that I've done it, I totally ripped into her just to show her what it feels like to be aggressed. It's like, okay, you you know, let me let me show you what it feels like. Now, of course, she she suddenly and wildly said, I'm going to report you to the board, I'm going to report you to the professional standards board. I said, knock yourself out, honey, absolutely go for it. I cannot wait. Who do you think they're going to believe? Who do you think they're going to believe? You know, and sure enough, maybe a month later, she was exited from what is a very, very, very good organization in Australia, and I felt thrilled. So I never felt like I had stepped out of my lane. I just changed my lane to something more more important. Now, I wouldn't advocate that too many times, but there are times when as a leader, you do have to you look at the system, you say, What's the role I'm playing in the system right now? In that moment, my servant role was eclipsed by my social good role that had to happen. I had to represent these people like a kind of like a big sister, whatever. But I I have no regrets about that, absolutely no regrets about that. And you know, powerful, after all these years, it still feels good, still feels like the right thing. I have my time over again, I do exactly the same. Exactly the same. So so so leading back into role modelling, okay. So the reason why I get a bit nervous about it, and let me be on the record saying, you know, the scourge of the influencer. Now, when did we decide an influencer was a good thing? Some of them are, but most of them are not. It's an industry, and it's an industrialized version of peer pressure. Why don't we see this? Why do we think this is a good thing for us? Why do we decide that we have to put our brain on pause and listen to all the good, totally unresearched thoughts of everybody else who's got something to say? So I just do not get it. I don't believe in it and I think it's terrible. I'm really pro, you know, like helping the younger Australians to find their sweet way to social media in the right way and in the right steps with the right ideas, you know, in their mind with the right expectations, actually. But not to be seen to be their guide for life. Like, holy morning. Humans need to think for themselves. The struggle is real, it's meant to be. It's how you create your brain, it's how you create your heart, it's how you create your drivers, how you know who you are. You need to know who you are, you know, and you don't know who you are when you're outsourcing the struggle and outsourcing the brain work. You can't you can't find it.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Well said.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

So that's it. That's my position on role modeling.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Okay, no problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So many different directions we can go from that, Lise.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Thank you so much. I mean, goodness, I love how you said that there was like this one moment in your career where you've ripped through someone, and it's such a lovely. I'm so so pleased that at the start of this, I was talking about your deep, deep care of people. Because sometimes you come in as a consultant and as a senior consult, you know, seeing a senior partner that you are, and that you are were quite young in your in your life. Um, I think because you've got that such a natural business growth instinct and mindset, and uh you can you get these the levers of business and how to how to I often say you're one of the very top strategists I've ever worked with, Lace. And uh so I just I wonder in us talking about people's uniqueness, how you you have this sixth sense of tapping into individuals, and luckily in your role now, you're actually very fast going into organizations and assessing teams as you have done for years, but even even more so in private equity. So how how do you think that you do that, Lise? Because it's got to be a little bit of like I don't know, inner natural ability and instinct and experience as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

You don't know! I don't know, it remains a mystery to me. I don't know, I don't know. I know what you're talking about, I know it's real. Like I I can't explain it. It's the truth.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Like I And do you just get a sense like when you meet someone or when you you've got an ass say you've got to assess 20 people for a team that is thinking about or your clients thinking about purchasing this business or investing in it, and you've got 20 people to assess. Do you just do you hear a voice? Do you like get an instinct? Do you read a lot of papers before?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Do you tell you well, yeah. I do all of the, you know, I do all the sensible stuff to sort of really make sure that because everything is you know very nuanced to the context. So for example, in private equity, there's no two private equity firms that are the same at all. Um, and what they each firm cares about, and even within the firm, what each partner cares about can be can be different, and that's all that's all the power of the partnership and the power of their portfolio. So it's all good and it's all as it should be. But there's always going to be a context within which they're reaching, they're trying to reach uh what they call conviction, which is this absolute go, like we're ready to go. And we try and contribute to that conviction curve, quite you know, like quite directly. Um and it's you know, it's it's high stakes, it's high stakes. So I don't want to be glib about the work because the work, you know, it's not like I wake up on a Wednesday, pull out a wand, and go off we go to work, you know. You know, it it it doesn't quite be your red shoes as you go. Yeah, yeah, well, actually, red shoes do make a difference. I think scientifically it's proven, uh, but you need to ask my sister about that. I actually did get myself a pair of sparkly red shoes, my sister whipped them off me within a heartbeat. So it's pretty annoying, but anyway, that's what you get when you've got a sister with the same shoe size. But anyway, um, I think that I think though, what I can't what I what happens when I'm talking to someone, and it doesn't take too long, is that I can actually see, so I can see what there's what's going on with their face. I can see uh I can feel the the sort of the energy of the of what's going on in the in the dynamic, and I can see through their face and into what they are really rather than what they are trying to tell trying to convince me of, right? So and in fact, the more they convince they try and convince me of this, that, and the other, I can see even more through them, you know. So it's a it's a funny thing, but I can literally see like 3D through the indeed through the fascinating person's energy and through into their mind and through into their heart, you know, and I can just sort of, and I know that sounds uh I know it sounds a bit bizarre, which is why I'm saying, and I'm not, I'm pretty, you know, feet on the ground, I am, um, but I still can't explain it. It's still a mystery to me, but I know that it's um I know that it's a real thing, and I and I and I've fortunately through the years, I mean it's decades now that I've been doing this sort of work, you know, let's call it three and a half decades, I've my record, my track record's pretty good. You know, I haven't probably haven't got it right every single time, but I think I've got it 90% of the way, you know. Certainly if the if if if the um repeat business of my clients is any indication that it there must be something going right, you know. It's only one part of what we do, but it's a pretty important part because and and I don't I think the other reason why I know um I have this is because I have an immense respect for humans, like humans, like you remember I used to be carrying I carry on about the superhuman and the superhuman within everyone, because there actually is there's a superhuman within every one of us, so I have a huge regard, you know, for for every single one. So I don't come to judge, but I am coming to to really accurately read where they're at, you know, where are they at and what are they really likely to do, you know, in the next year to two, truly.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

And and I wonder to if I can add to that, Lisa, don't let me put words into your mouth. I feel like you can also you can guess what the the the switch might be to help them get there.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

You know me. But that again, that's and that, and that's because obviously that's that it lines up with what I want. I want good outcomes for everybody, right? And that's why I say I don't, you know, I'm not sitting in in judgment, I'm sitting with a very privileged, you know, um opportunity to to help to inform you know futures for people to help sometimes that little leg up or that little don't look that way, look that way, can make the world a difference, you know, because people, you know, everybody's got a Bible path, but I think the other thing that the other thing that I this is again circling back to the role modeling, do your own thinking, do your own thinking, but don't be to the point of never listening to anybody. But if you think back on your own life, it's the short, it's the short conversation, the the person who pops into your life and then gone again. And they are the people, they are the people that maybe they were put there to help you do that, just that much, you know, and then and then you can then you're on your way. You're on your you're on the path that you should be on, and you can make a deal with yourself to stay on the path. That's the other thing that you know, and again, you know, not trying to leverage our firm deal side to the nth degree, but I think that people are not making deals with themselves. anymore. It used to be called keeping your own promises, you know, but we again we outsource, you know, we're looking, looking, looking, looking for a way, you know, a way to do something. And the sort of that rather than actually, we know ourselves. Just shut up and sit in yourself for five minutes and you'll get the you'll get the answer. But then you've got to work and make the deal. And the deal will involve sacrifices. Are you prepared to make the sacrifice? You know, are you prepared to do the work? Are you prepared to get out of your own comfort zone? And that way that's what we do. When we that's the human condition in activation. When we're a little bit just beyond our comfort what do you think happens? Shoulders back, eyes open, alert. This is the human condition. This is not this is not a mystery. This is absolutely the way we're wired. And I again I worry that people step away from true challenge, right? Real scary stuff. I don't mean to the point of being harm self-harming in any any way, but I think there's a mission of difference between that and our you know our wussy our wussy little lightweight way of doing things. And I think that's not good for us. It's not good for us. This is why I see people that are moving into their you know mid to late 30s still still outsourcing the tell me what I should do thing. You know where they they should be backing themselves and finding out what they can do by challenging themselves and making the deal with themselves with themselves.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

My in my guess Lise with you is that you had a sense of self really early on and then it was a lot about forging the diamond in terms of you having to go through a lot of challenges both in work and in business. And so you can reflect and observe in in people that lack of that sense of self or that that they're they're focusing on it because you know that you've had it from the start and this life for you possibly was about um a lot of like deep deep challenges and so what I observe in you as well is that you're so calm in chaos. I don't think you necessarily see chaos but you are tranquil and together and able to chart course. Where does it come from Lise?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

There you go you've got all the right questions and I've got none of the I've got none of the answers but I can just remember innate I can just remember innate and you remember this when we you know when we were and we are you know we continue to work together but in the in those early days I remember um when you're sort of breaking in new consultants and sort of teaching them teaching them the good way you know the right path how to be a real professional problem solver. But I can remember my expression was um big buckets of cold water people big buckets of cold water because you know it was like okay we've got to bring in the cold water because that it's a it's a it's it's a it's hell on earth in here it's hot you know it's really really heat it's heated and things are are unstable we need to cool everything down calm everything down because nothing can nothing can nothing good comes from an inflamed system like you cannot you cannot do any good. So it's in everything and organizations are systems and when they're inflamed there's just nothing that you should or could could do until you pull the system down you know because it won't it just won't work it won't work. So I just remember this impression of okay everybody like this little row of people coming in with the big buckets of cold water before you do anything else because it just it worked you know like I knew that it would even as we talk right now I can just see blue not red you know so it's sort of like okay just calm calm calm the system down I think the other expression I had which is um useful again was when when I was you know again and I loved teaching uh consultants how to be really great great great consultants loved it one of my favorite things still is but because actually being great is comes down to quite a few simple things and the other one is obviously what I used to call the Mickey Mouse principle which is like you know little mouth big ears you know like so the power is in the ears not in the mouth you know and consultants run their mouths a lot you know like they think that's what you meant to do definitely not so the power is in and I've been meetings um with very talented young consultants and I'd just be going like this so that they would remember like keep your ears open not don't run your mouth because you you know that's not what that's actually not really what you're there for. So I I I I just think cold cold water yes Mickey Mouse you can you know like that that they are the cornerstones that creates the conditions for for you to then do what you're there to do.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

This moment is about your natural genius. If there's a spark within you that wants to develop a lighter way a clearer signal to achieve more I'd like to work with you one on one. If you're after inspired direction in what you have to give get in touch with me via our website naturalgenious com dotau now back to the natural genius and I do not know how I can stay calm but I will tell you this I'll admit to this a few years ago I was feeling really out of sorts.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

I was thinking like what why do I feel like this and it's the weird and foreign feeling I don't know what it I don't know what this feeling is you know and guess what you know like I was experiencing anxiety like literally real anxiety for the first time and yes I've had heartbreaking yes I've had terrible loss in my life yes um you know my beautiful parents they taught me so much you know I lost them in a tragic car accident not of their making you know uh it's not doesn't feel good to be an instant orphan even when you're 43 was horrible the worst day of my life but cut to then the situation where I was just feeling this insane anxiety and I just couldn't reconcile it. It was the conditions that I was put that I'd put myself in. I'd chosen to dedicate some time to a particular organization and I knew that it wasn't right for me and it was as simple as that. So I think again um you know I'm grateful that I had a long sort of part leave pass on anxiety because it's a horrible thing like it was it's just a terrible thing. But this is when you also need to know no I'm in the wrong pond I've got to take myself out of here as soon as I did you know it all it all went away.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

It all just pressure went the inflammation went lease it all went you know like it it really really went so sometimes too you know if you if you're sort of a dedicated person a royal person and overdrive you might stay too long where you you're allowed to make a call like if you're feeling like that you don't need to stay another day just you know and at least while we're talking about anxiety and sort of uh environments that don't that don't seem quite right I remember when it's funny leading actually I remember when we worked together which was not those environments uh you and I had seem to have this fantastic telepathy and we still do when we work together and ESP kind of sensing into each other sometimes also when we're not together and we're not about to talk to each other that just sort of this kind of lovely flow that seems to mean that certain things get done without communication and this sort of sense of something that urgently needs to happen. Yeah. Do you see that in high performance teams and how do you cultivate it?

SPEAKER_02 30:34

That's great. That's a really really good question and I love I I love that question and I think the world needs to to you know spotlight that again um because you know um before this I was I I I was tempted to actually just even you know like Google the the formal definition of genius and then I had my but I didn't because it was I I did I didn't because I just didn't and I thought no I don't want to I actually don't want I I don't want to know what the formal formal definition of it is but because that's the scientist going crazy in me you know like thinking about things like that.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

But but then I love it as a slight sidebar you so got the red the left and right brain like rational like yeah sorry the economist that that's yeah the economist I love it when you say that to clients I think that's a really short way of being able to explain who you are.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Yeah well the only reason I I I pursued psych um economics is because actually talk talking about role model the one that I do point to when I in my very early years apart from mum and dad was my economics teacher because she was so beautiful and so cool and so smart and I thought God I want to be her you know she was amazing just absolutely amazing. Yeah yeah yeah so that that there you go but I think I think with the teams like because I because what I was thinking about was this concept of genius team could there be a genius team because generally what happens is like you get the you know like the genius is like the caviar and everybody else is like the crackers or the potato or something like that. Like you can't have too much caviar you can't have you know can you have that much caveat you know so there's normally like one and then there's a bunch of supporting roles you know like that creates you know a high a high functioning team I'm still interested and curious about this but what we've been doing a lot more of lately is checking the calibration of the team. So this idea of you know calibration because it's so easy for an executive team to be on quite different uh interpretations of strategy believe it or not right you know it's everybody read the same thing everybody it's the same strategy document but your interpretation of it my interpretation of it will still be different you know and and to a level that's okay but not too much otherwise we're you know we're off making our own movies you know you know like so so there's it's so easy for you to be out by like 40% believe it or not so I just think we're going back to basics and checking that everybody's on the same you know page I don't like that expression but you know what I'm talking about that the interpretation strategy the interpretation of strategy because super smart people senior senior people will they can't help themselves they will apply a personalized spin an interpretation because their brain can't stop them from doing it and their life can't stop them from doing it. Do you know what I mean? So but and that's good and that's important but that's in the middleware of the strategy. So the problem is the way people create strategy these days it's still wrong in my opinion well a lot of it is process isn't right. So you need to actually really harness the power of that amazingness at the top team you've got a you've got a collection of geniuses at a top team give them all you know creative license to go you know go bananas diverge and then really pull then really really come together around the things that really matter and then everybody lands in a place where everyone's happy it's a bit like going to a wedding and you're a bridesmaid and I'm a bridesmaid and you love your frock and I hate mine. It's like wow but I've got to wear it in front of all these people it's like no you know it's like okay how do we get everybody in the frock that they they can rock and off they go and they'll deliver the strategy you know so so I think in terms of high performing teams there's some stuff here that is just literally under our nose and we need to have the humility to back up the truck a bit and actually face it and go actually you know what that's probably what might be happening. It could be that there are there are a number of other things that go into calibration but that is one of the big ones you know I think that we're seeing when you get a collective of very clever um people the the other thing I would say is the highest functioning teams are the ones that make room for each other. This is very important. So opposed off the table right make room make room and it's an act it's an action right an intention it's actually an action at the table to make room for other people's points of view. Again the Mickey Mouse just shut up and listen for a little bit and you'll learn things. Not only a textbook but it's just lived experience by looking at a million different teams and seeing what they do or do differently I remember this incredible team amazing team that a private equity firm asked us to look at and honestly individually unremarkable. Now that sounds a bit you know mean but you know it wouldn't LinkedIn profiles wouldn't have set any alarm bells going for the right reasons like that all they all looked like pretty normal unremarkable executives. When they came together holy moly they were an unstoppable force in the market and it was obvious in their numbers just the way they were able to come together was blitzed the competition but if you hadn't seen the way we saw the them in action you would you just take a look at them and you go mid no way you know that the the ability for them to actually work as an as a real system of momentum and of you know market um phenomenal yeah it was really yeah right hold but also rare right so there's it is rare to get that full functioning system at the top because there's a lot of ego at the top you think about the people that can actually you know vote up there and get up there and they're invested in their in themselves before they're invested in anybody else and that's and so Lisa is what you're describing setting aside ego generally for teams to work well together. Yep oh but you know again this is where you've really got to know the human I've got an ego you've got an ego it's not we'd be dead without it like an ego actually is again it's part of our energy system it's part of our battery pack you know like you actually do need it it's not like you you you know I'm not getting Freudy in here at all. But but it's actually okay like everybody you know it's okay um it's just when it's just when you know your I think it's about your motivation and it's about your selfishness versus your selflessness you know so um and again I'm not a big I'm not a big subscriber of selflessness. I haven't met too many humans genuinely other than the those who are famous and genuinely were earth you know that really came with the most pure of altruistic intent. But most of us are not that like let's be honest and the we've all got an ego and that's okay you know as I say I'm worried about you if you didn't have one at all. Indeed. So it's okay but it's about it's about thinking about that within the context that you've been you that you choose and that your employer or partnership choose you to be in. So if you choose to be in a particular system that's got a set of conditions the only conditions that you within which you can si succeed then if you're really smart you know that and you should you should respect that and you should work to you should dedicate yourself to that reality rather than deciding that you're the one that's just that little bit cleverer and you're you're gonna put yourself over here on a little sunny sandbank waiting for everybody else to drown just so you can say I told you I told you don't like people like that. There are better ways to do that than that. So I think that's important again it's the it's in the you know it's in the balance everybody's an individual everybody will be self-serving that is again the human condition because that's survive but then but then when you're really the chips are down who really really saves you it's the tribe you know to be honest it's hard to save yourself if you've gone too far. Yes someone's gonna have to help and so you know again the joke I think the other observation is the difference between people that are really naturally talented and those that I would put into a bit of a genius bucket are the ones that have chosen the right company to keep along the way as well which is not everybody you know it's a it it's the it's a few of the right people along the way it's a very interesting thing about the company you keep the impact it has on the path you take and and how you actually exercise that talent because it is only talent it's not you're not a genius if you've just got a bit of God given talent. It's in the exercising of it that you do something you know that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah Lee so I I mean what a rich conversation I I was reading something this morning about a company that's growing so fast that they don't have enough desks and won't until the company is large enough uh sorry until the new offices are built and no one cares. So they're recruiting like mad no part some people don't have a desk some they're just living in this sort of workspace that they're just making do and they are locked in. And I I sort of I love reading about these organizations and leaders and teams where everyone is like aligned in their individual purpose and as you say they're aligned in the strategy like their their individual purpose aligns with the business's purpose. And I don't say that lightly because I you and I both know that there's a lot of work that goes into that and we were both I felt very lucky that you picked me up and moved me into change management for a while and I learnt about the backday strategy. Like you can't communicate this movie that you just talked about that the that everyone's going towards if everyone has different versions of it and being able to do that um great business strategy work. But I I do love hearing about these teams that are locked in especially because the individual is expressing their unique gifts in a way that I don't know the word alignment use these days. But um yeah I I'm I'm sure you love that too and that's partly why you're in private equity just to sort of see that beautiful expression of and that is part of the reason for natural genius. It is an ode to every single person has these beautiful unique gifts and when they're expressed and when they're sometimes people like you and I come along and help to unlock them.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

So sometimes we turn up and we're like a lightning rod and people are suddenly like I want to do more I want to I want to achieve more or there's more to me that I can do.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

So yeah there possibly it was a question in that lease I think it was just a again it's just lovely to have these conversations to be able to hear of teams going well. Is there anything that you would suggest to leaders around how they help to coach others or how they lift capability is there a kind of a constant that you notice that people could do I think it's really one of the hardest things that leaders have to do is to actually play that role of um lifting lifting capability within within within a talented you know person um and actually as you say finding the you know finding the key or helping them or doing what needs to be um done to keep keep to keep to keep them moving and oh honestly you know we could spend another year talking about this topic but it is one that if if leaders are really honest about themselves

SPEAKER_02 44:00

themselves honest to themselves, they would say this is one that is not an easy one. So one of the hardest ones to do, actually. But my um Elizabeth, my business partner, has a really great um uh approach to this when she was, you know, working through um you know the the the ranks to be one of this country's best CPOs ever, um, ever. Um and busy, busy, busy. But you know, if one of her people came to her in a blinding panic about needing, you know, like needing guidance or whatever, she would literally say, Do you want the answer or do you want a lesson? So it's like I can, you know, I can relieve you by telling you what to do right away, or I can we can do a proper lesson here so that you can, you know, can be you. But if she was sensitive enough to know that sometimes when people come to you, you know, like just going like, Well, this is this is a little bit of a just a minute before panic, or what do you want? You know, because sometimes too, the old drawn-out, well, you know, this is what you could consider, reflect and will honestly drive someone to into a into a um panic attack. Sometimes you've just got to really understand where are they in that absolute moment. It's a bit like the the the buckets of cold water thing again, get the system back down to a place where you can listen to things. Because when people are really tight, they're not hearing a single thing they're saying with a little bit. You know, it's not even go, it's not even going in. So I think sometimes leaders need to, it's it's not like you have to do the lesson every time. Sometimes you should step in and actually do something that you know how to do to solve, you know, to help them get through this thing. And then there'll be other days when there'll be lessons, there'll be times for that. But for the most part, just remember that every single time you meet with one of your direct reports, you will own it's very binary, you will only lift them or drop them. There is nothing else in the middle. So be don't meet them if you're not in the presence of mind to do the lift them with the energy, because if you're not having a good day, you're just going to pull them down with you. So you're better to cancel than to have that meeting, to be honest. There's no shame in that. And again, just remember you don't have to do much of the talking. Sometimes people just want to have a chance to um hear their own thoughts, you know, um, just check their own thoughts. The the shortest meeting I've ever had was one word, and the word was, yep. Off you go. It was like, yeah, you've got this. Oh, I feel like Lise, you might have had a few of those.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

I know that when you and I worked together, I could just sense and feel uh that holding space around me. And then every now and then you I'd come out of facilitating something, and you'd be like, lose the word whatnot, Sam. And I was like, and then you know, this would have been early 2000s, and it like, you know, it kind of hurts, and then it's like, oh yes, I need to lose the whatnot. And I just I you know how much I love your lise, and I you know that I but just said to feel in you and my first boss ever, massive handlebar mustache, who was such a lovely guy, or probably is. Um, he just he let me do stuff that was way beyond my age when I first started out as a young engineer, and uh and I I just to be amongst great leaders and learning from them is fabulous. Um, Lise, the other thing that I wanted to just make mention of throughout this conversation, you've said uh you've talked about the sausage, but we're not here to make sausages, and about like leave that to bunnies, they do just 450 a sausage at the moment. Well, I mean think of your Italian heritage and like thinking about delicious, amazing. Anyway, um, but one of the things that I uh so appreciate about you, Lise, and also being able to work together over uh 27. This might be the 27th year together, Lise. Uh so I see in you there's this quote that I heard, I think it might be Ogilvy, make the complex simple and the simple compelling. Now you have got that down pat, you've had that down pat for years, but the thing I find about you and another friend that's coming to mind is you can do one slide to the client, or you can do one like phrase or uh paragraph, and that is worth so much to them in terms of future growth or in terms of getting themselves out of their challenge. One of the the reason why I bring it up at the close of this is partly because there is a lot of consultants in the world, and that that is like the essence of great advisory for me.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

It's my coffee table book if ever I get around to it. But and I and don't ask me how I know how to do that either, because I don't know, I don't know, but I enjoy it. Like I enjoyed. One thing that needs to be said. But I look, you know, like sometimes I like I'll give you an example. Um there was there was a uh a very diligent, very worthy CEO that was you know working very hard to um to to redeem a outrageously overpaid sales director. And um I just remember saying to him, you know what? This is sunshine on concrete, my friend. Sunshine on concrete, you know, and it's like it doesn't matter how much you're gonna give it, it's not gonna work, you know. And in that moment he gave up on it, and it was the right thing to do because he was over, you know, owning the the issue, and it you know, like it wasn't gonna make any difference at all. But sometimes if you can just put a little thing out there that says don't, you know, it it that's it, you know, and again, um but I I've been so goddamn lucky to get away with my language from time to time. I mean it's always been above which, you know, let me be clear. But um, yeah, the problem is I'm never gonna publish that damn coffee table book because I can't remember half of them. Like you can remember them. I I I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

I well, I you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

I also I wondered with a really great entrepreneur I worked with one time, he was amazing at very short references and stories. So he would be able to, it's like he was successful, amazing at branding. I think part of his success was his kindness and awareness of other people, and that he could quickly turn a story so that somebody could, they might be in a current state, and he's like, This is the state we need to get you to, or this is the what we need that product to become. And he would tell a really like he'd give them a some sort of like reference to imagine the future state. And I wondered, he'd been to an Ivy League school for um I can't remember whether it was maybe Stanford or somewhere, and to do an entrepreneur course, and he'd already been a successful entrepreneur, and I just wondered whether they'd taught that in the course, like come up with short stories because it gets your people across, and you do that.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

So I haven't been to I've I haven't been to school since I left uni. That was a long time ago. I don't I don't read any, you know, I don't read much, like I don't mind admitting that, but honestly, 25,000 new management books get published every year. I mean individual titles, 25,000 individual titles every year. I don't think there's a need for it. It's an industry, again, do your own thinking, yeah, feel your own struggle and be happy to be judged by it anyway, you know, and just because the only thing like you've been incredibly kind, Sam, in this podcast. And um, but all I would say to anyone who's listening to this is that you are the product, and you do you, and things will work. They'll work better than any other way you can do uh work and life just because you are a snowflake. Every one of us is different for a reason. I mean, honestly, it could have been easier, it could have been much easier. We don't have to all be original products, but we are. There's a reason for that. So you're there ain't no two of us alike, you know? So let's let's just remember that and just be okay with that and just do that.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

The uniqueness of a snowflake, Lisa. Thank you so so so so so much. Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenus.com.au. Thanks so much.