Natural Genius: Deep Conversations. Meaningful Lives.

#5 - Hamish Curry: Curiosity, Education, Adventures and Serendipity

• Natural Genius • Season 1 • Episode 5

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0:00 | 39:47

In this episode, Sam Bell speaks with educator and collaborator Hamish Curry about curiosity as a way of moving through life and work, designing conditions for serendipity, and education that builds agency.

Drawing on Hamish’s work across Cool.org, the State Library of Victoria, and the DO Lectures Australia, this is a conversation about playfulness, designing experiences, and creating environments where people deeply learn and can’t quite explain why they’re feeling a certain way.

This episode explores:
• A “go have adventures” operating principle
• Curated serendipity and the conditions that invite meaningful collisions
• Curiosity as a driver of learning
• Designing memorable experiences using people, place, and program
• Building community through education and shared experiences
• Hope, optimism, and practical frameworks that support action
• The success of the DO lectures Australia

Guest links:

• Hamish Curry - General Manager, Cool.org. Educator, enabler, collaborator, schemer. https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishcurry

• Eddie Harran https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardharran 

• Cool.org’s Hope and Act Frameworks & AI Literacy for Teachers Course

• Enjoy a DO lectures Australia talk: https://thedolectures.com/everything/?eventType=DO%20Australia 

• the DO lectures Australia venue & (hosts) Tess & Graham Payne - payneshut.com

• Apply for the DO lectures https://thedolectures.com/events/do-wales/ 

• Pete Spence, Sports & Performance Consultant and creator of Creative Performance Exchange (CPX) https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-spence-6021016/

Books:
• Orbiting the Giant Hairball – Gordon MacKenzie

Music:
• To Let a Good Thing Die – Bruno Major
https://open.spotify.com/track/2nMeu6UenVvwUktBCpLMK9

Chapters:
02:30 Playfulness in work, curiosity, learning through experience and sagacity
06:10 Designing successful experiences
09:30 Curated serendipity
12:00 People, place, program: designing deeply memorable experiences
18:40 Creating community and memorable learning experiences
39:47 Hope and Optimism, the Hope + Act framework and working with Harvard researchers 

Explore further:
Book a Lab: https://naturalgenius.com.au
Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
Subscribe to hear future episodes.

Credits:
Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Melbourne, 16 January, 2026
Natural Genius Podcast https://naturalgenius.com.au

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the necrogenie, we can't help you to help you never genius. Experience. Um specifically in Japan as well. It is with such great position that we have natural genius guest. Hey Mish Curry. Hey, Mish Curry. This is a complete pleasure to have you on the Natural Genius podcast. How exciting. So I wanted to start off with because the two of us in our work together, we've done a lot of quite playful things.

SPEAKER_02

How long's it been?

SPEAKER_00

Uh actually I wasteen years?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, possibly. Maybe more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Lucky me.

SPEAKER_04

I know. Lucky me.

SPEAKER_00

And I was thinking actually, when I because we were at Creative Performance Exchange together. Yep. Well, as participants, and then the two of us ended up by being on the team with Pete Spence helping organise it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I remember thinking so highly, it was like when I met Eddie Harron. When I met you, I was like, whoa, what a dude. He does all this great stuff. And then fast forward 15 years, we've been on cheer lists together and traveled together and done crazy ambitious projects successfully together. And uh yeah, so probably would have been like what 2010 or 12 or something like that. Oh no, maybe even earlier than that, like 2008 or so. Anyway, people don't need to know.

SPEAKER_04

We're just old.

SPEAKER_00

We've known each other for a while and we're both joking about needing glasses now. It's older glasses. Great hair. Um right, so yeah, tell me about how you have retained that playfulness in work, and do you think it might have stemmed originally from being a teacher and wanting to bring in that playfulness with education as well?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's actually that's a good that's a good kicker of that one. Is it? Yeah, because I I don't know I did think about it. Maybe and maybe this speaks to what you know, it speaks to the natural genius, so that doesn't sit comfortably with me. But the natural bit, the natural, the natural, the natural playfulness is probably the thing. I I I don't necessarily think about it. Um I was saying to someone the other day that one of one of my favourite words that I've had for a long time is the word neotony. Oh and it basically means childlike qualities in adults.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And it's often it can often be used as in a derogatory way that you're just immature.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04

But in one sense, neotney also means that you're just a little bit playful and childlike. And so I like this idea of um playfulness because I think as a as a teacher I liked the idea of um that you could do something for kids, and if kids really enjoyed it and found it fun, then it's really, really likely that adults would find the same experience. And I think, yes, naturally, through teaching and wanting to make things interesting and not the same, and that's one thing I've always struggled with is routine. Like I get the importance of it, and I there's aspects of what I do that I would say are routine, but just doing the same thing the same way and always getting the same results. I guess that's where my sense of playfulness is like there's got to be something better or more fun to do. Yeah, so um, yeah, I think every time when I was in that when I met you, looking at events and looking at the ways different people would come together, it was always about this little different X factor.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

That suddenly that was the spark that everyone needed to take it to another level.

SPEAKER_00

And so through being a teacher and a director in education, did was there when you and I met, had you already established because that would have been maybe 15 years of work you might have had, or 10 years so far.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, about that.

SPEAKER_00

And uh because one of the things, one of the real uh beautiful memories I've got of our uh work with Do Lectures is you the way you curated the program is so we had a lot of moving parts, but when we were talking about the speakers, you had like groupings of three. And I remember there was something like the three horsemen, or there were you sort of had this kind of arc of storytelling through the whole program with 20 speakers, but then you'd grouped them, and I always between that experience, which seemed really unique, and your own kind of magic and your own craft, and then I remember hearing about when you were at State Library here in uh Melbourne and you were you'd put like I don't know, raspberry pie and cooking or something, like two disparate things together that apparently worked really well, and you constantly were doing uh events like that that would attract the public and have a really great turnout.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, when you and I first met, was that had you already kind of worked out uh the kind of zeitgeisty X factor that led to events being successful by b putting disparate things together?

SPEAKER_04

Uh God, that's a good one. That's testing my memory around was I aware of it. I I don't think as much. I think I I think when I left being a teacher, yes, like that was the bit that allowed me to suddenly realise there were all sorts of other opportunities where I could start to try different things. And so I think it was through that experience with the State Library and then having the opportunity to kind of just take on whatever jobs they needed at the same time as um I think it will in hit in many respects it will be seen as kind of like a little mini renaissance, that pit that period of time. It just felt like it was it was actually about the diversity of putting people together that was the magic. And so the bit with do lectures that one of the many things I loved about it was just this element of yeah, like I wonder what happens if I get this person and this person followed by this person. What kind of narrative does that build for people? Yes, and it's definitely not a thing, and I think this is where curation is definitely not a thing where it's like I'm gonna put these three people together because they all talk about economics. That's not no, that's not the point. The point is about that what's the underlying message, what type of person are they, what's the vibe, and and also how what sort of journey do I want to take the audience on after it's all over? Like, are we now going into dinner? Are we now going into lunch? Where do I want to leave people feeling so like not that I would say I have any experience or understanding of how you would craft a movie, but I think there are similar elements to that. Yes, and I and I've always liked this idea of curating and and having things together that may not seem immediately logical, but uh and they don't always work either, yes, but then something really interesting happens, and that's the bit where I love it when people can't guess why they feel the way they do uh because of what's happened.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and I know that people at do lectures kept saying, Oh, you know, it was really clever the way you put those people together, which was good, but I never wouldn't it was never my intention to somehow for that to be visible. Yes, it had to feel slightly serendipitous. Yes, yes, and that's and that's actually probably something that I've I have mentioned to other hoop before, and I think I ha I've got a draft blog post somewhere sitting there that's never been published, which was about this idea of curated serendipity. Yes, like in order to get something serendipitous, you have to put yourself in a situation or a context or in a place where it can come to you. Like you've got to you've got to cure about it, you actually have to go right. I'm gonna go walk in this park because the kind of thing I'm thinking that might happen might be this. And maybe nothing will happen, but maybe it will.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Or go teach English in Japan and meet your beautiful lady wife.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, well, and but then also like I when I went to Japan, like I went with with full understanding that I knew nothing, so I didn't sort of pretend like I know something, which is the bit that doesn't know me about what you see a lot of these days online. People who go for one trip and then they're now doing 50 million TikToks and acting like they know everything about Japan. Like I've been going to Japan for now 26 years and I still know very little about the country, you know. And when I first arrived in Japan, everyone else had a plan except me, or that's for how it felt. And when it came to time to say, Oh, so where would you like to teach? I was like, I don't know. And they went, Oh well, everyone else has taken Tokyo and Osaka, and it's like, well, what's gonna send you to Takahoka? And like everyone just laughed. And I was like, What? It's like that's in the middle of nowhere. I was like, Okay, and I distinctly remember actually when when I was thinking about this conversation, yes, I distinctly remember as in terms of these moments arriving in Takoka at night, it was pouring with rain, I couldn't see anything, and then there's a whole lot of really interesting, serendipitous things that happened. But the next morning when I woke up, like I was realized like 360 degrees, there were like Alps, snowy Alps around me, and I was like, Yeah, I totally landed in the right place, and the fact that then I met my wife, so I really landed in the right place, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I love that, and as you were thinking about this conversation, dare I ask, was there uh some pondering about role models that you might have come across through your did you do you have any stories of people that might have helped to not just serendipity but helped to kind of chart Hamish Curry's course?

SPEAKER_04

I would s yeah, I would say again that um the the ability to kind of not leave everything to chance but be able to kind of leave yourself open with options is so so important. That's something definitely I think about with my own kids is whatever you do, just make sure you've got pathways and options, not a pathway, yeah. Which is often where a lot of people are pushed into art pathway, but like multiple things at your fingertips that you can tap into. Um I guess like when it comes to those sorts of um moments, it's um I guess it's um what am I trying to say? It's like being able to kind of realize that you can um you can have a choice, and so you don't just take the thing that looks easy, but also you can think about the thing that will like that has a little bit of mystery or curiosity about it. It's not quite I I may and maybe that's me. I don't want to I don't yeah, I don't want to ever do something where I it's all just laid out for me. Like here, take the wheel, like it's it's all good.

SPEAKER_00

You don't have to do anything else to be like, oh that I'm or here, turn up to Japan, you're gonna teach English, and you'll know these are exactly what I've done.

SPEAKER_04

This is exactly this is exactly what will happen. Like if it's if it's a hundred percent predictable, it'll be a hundred percent boring for me.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

So and then the second thing to that was it probably is just a little bit of luck as a part of that, but I've always I've been very, very, very fortunate to work in roles where I've had plenty of models around me, as in role models.

SPEAKER_00

So is that right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think every I think every job I've done, I can name up the person or at least two people who were like they're the people that I'm gonna learn the most from. And they and you and they and they were always people that had very deep levels of wisdom. Yes, and so um, yeah, I there's definitely something in that. Like I'm attracted to those sorts of roles where if I know that there's people there who are who've got a lot of wisdom and are very open about sharing that, uh, and and then trusting someone else to see what you can do with it, I think that's where I tend to kind of have fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, wow. And prior to us starting this conversation, we were having we were talking about uh Uncle Bob Randall uh and his Canyini philosophy uh that our dear friend Ani Barb Randall is helping to get out into the world. And uh I think maybe that's another example of where you know somebody is holding on to this amazing knowledge and you can help to enable that to get out to many people. So is that what you're meaning?

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that's I mean that's just another great example, right? Like it comes it comes to something another I mean I I think I've said this before in other contexts, but in addition to neotney, yes, and that being a very favourite word, my other really favourite word, and I'm probably gonna say there's more than two, but yeah, is is the word um it's called sagacity. Yes, and so sagacity um it's defined as the intelligent application of knowledge acquired from years of learning and experience. So it's not just it's not wisdom, it's like applied wisdom. It's like this idea that I took this thing and I did it here because I learned that it worked and it may work here too. And I think that um indigenous knowledges are actually quite typical of those things because they obviously the the the work of Carnini comes from the very central parts of Australia, like literally from the heart of Australia. But the messages and the intentions and the opportunities for others to learn and be inspired by it can be applied almost anywhere, and then it's the it's the excitement of being able to come up with ways to communicate that where um I think most educators get as just as much um inspiration from what they learn as what they help the students learn. So yeah, that's why I think something like Kanye is something that I would love to see flourish.

SPEAKER_00

Oh gosh, yeah. And yeah, for so many reasons, and also because it's so some of the indigenous stories I've heard and fables and way of seeing the world, I can so see why they've lasted through the years, because they're sweet stories that um like I remember hearing about the st a story about the platypus and the story was about the wood duck and the water rat, and it was about unconditional love, and the the story goes on, and then and and then at the end the elder that told it was saying, So why wouldn't you preserve the platypus's environment? Because you're protecting unconditional love.

SPEAKER_04

And I I just that and other stories I've heard from indigenous elders, they're just so sweet with their simplicity and their but if you think about and this is something that I think uh other cultures like maybe Western civilization we struggle with, is that we we haven't spent over 65,000 years both just being complete connected with natural natural wonder and the natural wonders of the world around us and then deeply appreciating the role of family and kinship and and and that sort of connection to country. Like we don't that's not that's not our world. And so I think that's why it's often hard for others to undersc understand it. And classically, you know, every pattern has always been that if I don't understand it, then I can just be dismissive of it, and that that's the pattern we see repeated everywhere. Like arrogance and ignorance goes well before, you know, deeper understanding and wisdom. Like you and often you need to create an experience for some for it to like wake wake someone up, like you need something that breaks it. And that's that's actually that's that's probably one of the other things that when I was at the state library, uh something that we found that has stayed with me all that time too, yes, is like so libraries are just basically obsessed with memories, right? So collecting them, like every book, every publication, everything, like just this collection of all these of of memory. And when we were trying to think about how we design education programs, yes, you could sit there and tell students all the facts and all the we have so many books, and here's the oldest thing, and here's the most expensive, and and we thought that that was educating, but actually when we were really getting into it, we realized it was actually just about making something memorable. Yes, and it only had to be one thing.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Which which is which is it that all the facts wasn't memorable, it was that we did something a little bit different, or we told them um something like a little ghost story that they all knew wasn't true, but it just it now brought the place to life in some way, and that it that's all you needed, yeah, and that's that as a I think as someone that loves designing learning, how you make something memorable is a far more um admirable and ambitious goal than just saying, how do I make sure kids just memorize this? Which is which is unfortunately where often a lot of education goes, which is sure memorize this, repeat it on a test, rather than something go. If I asked a child what was something truly memorable that you've done, they probably wouldn't be able to name anything. And I and I think that's that's sad that education doesn't make learning memorable. So yeah, so that's that's what I think that's a a big driver for what I want to do.

SPEAKER_00

I think that that's not just for children. I I uh was reflecting recently on entrepreneurs that I've worked with that have been really successful, and often it is story, or often it's being able to explain uh like to create a mini movie between two states, yeah. Like where we're at now and what we want to get to.

SPEAKER_04

But but I think it's I think the other thing for me is um people increasingly, and I think like I say we're different, but you know, we're just fitting each other's egos at this point. But we we have a real um spirit of adventure.

SPEAKER_01

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like we we we like to go out and do things that we're not entirely sure are gonna work, but but also like whether that's doing starting something, going somewhere, and so having adventures to me is the equivalent of making something memorable.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04

Like it that's what creates deep things. Um and and do lectures was one of those because in in that in that sort of trifecta of design, you bring people, place, and program.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And so if you think about those in equal measure, yes, that's you've got a like a huge, huge opportunity for something deeply memorable. And out of any even real event or program I've ever done in my life, do lectures like head and shoulders is above all of that.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing.

SPEAKER_04

People that attended it, were connected to it, still to this day talk about do lectures. I have never known anyone with any program. Any any other like to ever have done that? So there was something in the curation of those three things where it would be very hard to replicate, but but that's what made that memorable. And so I think those three things are I think about those three things all the time. When we start a new project at work, like what sort of people are involved? Are we got just the same people, or do we need to bring a different person? Like what what place is this happening on? Like it can be a physical place, yes, but digital is also a place. So what digital world is this building? And then program, which is and what what's driving it? What are we what are we building with?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, um, often program can supersede everything else. Yeah. Um, and that's where I think um there are probably some really delicate balances where people are realizing that there are limits to how many of those ingredients you put in. Like, do lectures, I think that we sort of I think we always capped at about a hundred people. That seems to be like a m for me that feels like a magic number for a big event.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Um for a deep multi-day big event, like a hundred people, like any more than that, and it just feels like a festival or something. It's not really a place of it's just you're not really there to connect, so you don't.

SPEAKER_00

I think you might need to go to do lectures in Wales.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think they're ever so slightly.

SPEAKER_04

I feel like I've but I've uh there's a there's also a thing, right, where it's like the in in the back of my head it it's like, yeah, but I'd done that. I did do it. Why would I want to go and do do lectures again? Do you know yeah, I know. A little nudic, yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because you've got the sits of adventure and you've totally gotta spend time.

SPEAKER_04

But there is a part of me it's like that. I'd I'd want to like what's the next evolution of do lectures like like beyond that? Like, so yes, you can do you you can keep doing that, but also that and I and I have since seen people post on LinkedIn about gone to do lectures, even people recently in the last few years, and they've talked about this life-changing experience, and I just go, Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I don't need to go because I I know exactly what you mean. Like you've had the experience that I think we were able to well.

SPEAKER_00

Let me see if I can explain myself because I would hate to send you somewhere that you don't want to go. There we go. It'd be quite fun to send him somewhere. Um so it was like when we were we gave the amazing Naomi Dyer the um uh the um giving chair or the the ticket to be there, and she had organised so many different do lectures in Wales, and she got to sit there and not be a volunteer. Yeah, and remember how I was like, she is not she can be a volunteer, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not having her do anything. Like, I did actually see her with a piece of chalk beforehand and helping us because she had beautiful writing, so doing some blackboard stuff. Um, but I I would encourage you to go to the One in Wales, partly because I think that they have that ability to change it up every year, and so you get to be a participant, you get to have some accolades because you completely deserve them from so much hard work that we both we all put into those experiences. Um but one of the things actually, as you're talking about do lectures in Australia, there were two uh three memories that came to mind. And I wanted to throw into you a mix of the three um dimensions of design. And what one of the things that I think was really sweet about that experience is that a lot of the people that were helping to organise were mature in themselves. So if you think of Tess and Gray uh with the place, and the the history was we'd been looking for the venue for ages, we couldn't find it, we went to Tassie, we went around Victoria, we just couldn't find it. And then obviously Payne's Hut, where we ran it, was uh B for eight people, and we grew it to a hundred-ish, it was meant to be eighty, plus I think we got to 120 at one stage.

SPEAKER_04

So that was plus all the staff and all the volunteers. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And so I remember them uh so having run it for two years, there was that camaraderie that that was developed, and I remember Tess calling me one day and in the lead up, and she was saying, Sammy, do you want it to be called the coffee stand, the tuck shop, the such and such? But she had enough respect and space for me as the director to ask detailed questions like that because it mattered. And then remember how one of the memories that you loved that I I've heard you say a few times is that with all of the machinations and the chaos and the calm and the madness and the you know organizing behind the scenes, at one stage over dinner, and the backdrop of this was I remember David Hyatt talking about one of his if we go into business speak KPIs, one of his goals was for the decibels at the eatery to be loud on the first or second night or something like that. And uh, you know, because people are strangers with each other, they've travelled, and and if the conversation or the the sound of the earth over dinner is loud, then we're doing well. And I remember you and I one I can't remember if it was the first night or the second night, and um we had Brooke making amazing vine leaf covered salmon, wrapped salmon. Yeah, and it's and and suddenly their conversation stopped. And I remember I s I feel like you there's a memory or that maybe we've talked about it, that the two of us were like, uh-oh. But it was that the salmon tasted so good. It was it was that everyone stopped talking.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It's like it was like that it was like that um moment in Ratatou know the film at Ratatouille in the pizza where the f the the food critic at the end like tastes this um I I it's a ragu or something, and like you just watch him, like his whole world goes into his head, and like he's taken back his childhood. Like it was this thing where it just it just yeah, just that food instantly hit me with this bolt of lighting, but it was also a thing of this food has no right to be this good given where we are with no power and a kitchen that was like cobbled together to try and feed all these people, and so I immediately put everything down. I ran into the kitchen and gave Brooke this massive heart and I said, I don't know how you did it. Like it was it was just this that would that's just insane. Yeah, so yeah, like that yeah, there there is there is those sorts of really um memorable things that um yeah, I keep it. So that was the place.

SPEAKER_00

Well, because the third one that I that was coming to mind as you were talking was uh this must have been for the second year where there was the outdoor art exhibition up in the gum trees, high in the gum trees, and down low. And I remember in us leading into talking about the second event and how we would change things up. And Tess and Gray, uh quite you know seven hours' drive away from Melbourne, far, far away in the remote parts of Victoria and Australia, uh, had time to ponder each night or you know, over time how they would change things up at their place for the second time round. I remember them calling and saying, Sammy, we've got this idea, which they did a few times. And they said we want to do an art installation in the bush, uh, and then we get people to come on their arrival, they stop before the site, and then they walk through this in the bush, through these installations, and then they arrive into the property was the greatest idea. And then over the weeks to come, because most of the time I'd just say yes whenever they came up with ideas, and and I remember over the weeks to come, then they would say, We want to do this in the art installation, and we want to do this, and sure enough, they'd like suspended stuff up in the like high up, and then they hadn't just thought about uh height, and they thought about texture and scent and smell and taste, yeah. And so they had Brooke um their daughter create these beautiful balls that were covered in colourful um flower petals so that at the I don't know, I think maybe they had six stations or the different senses, but they then you could taste something amazing that was colourful. So yeah, when I really those three aspects of design, I I as you were talking about it, they're the they're the sort of real poignant moments that that and the fact that I think that the people that were working on it, the key people, were mature and like expressing their own uniqueness by um each of us giving each other space to be able to let that come out and saying yes.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I I always I always get lots of inspiration from creative people in the sense that if we've got to try and do something, even w if it's new or or not new, like um I know that when I was always you'd always have all you'll have those discussions about it, I'd always throw out lots of suggestions hoping that people would disagree.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_04

And go, oh no, but what about this? Because I and then I'd go, oh yeah, that was a thing. Like there was there'd be like this missing bit.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04

But and my often my test would be that I would throw out things and it would be like could be to the team that I was leading or something like that. But if they just sat there and went, oh okay, I'd be like, Can you please like disagree? Or can you please just like bounce like I'm not you're not here to do what I say. Yes. You're here to kind of bring your own special creativity and ideas or thinking to this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Uh, and that's why I've always wanted to like always when people come with some sort of, oh can I try this? My first answer is always trying to say yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because, and that was something that um and I don't know who I lied to do, but I've lost this little book called Orbiting the Giant Hairball by um uh I was gonna say Mackenzie, someone um Rob McKenzie, anyway, someone anyway, it's a tiny little book, and he worked at Hallmark Cards for like 11 years, and he was like a real like thorn in their side because he just didn't do anything conventionally, and in this little book, he just has all these little chapters that are just little stories that are just takeaways about that. And um, one of them is literally that one sentence. It's like the Wright brothers didn't have a pilot's license, and I thought that's the chapter that that that's all there is to say, and then another one was like um he got so annoying they decided like put him in their own office and said, You're gonna be the person who looked after ideas for Hallmark. Yes, because like they just wanted to put him in a room and shut him up, yeah, yeah. And like you just like just go and try to make ideas. And he and then in the middle of the book, it all gets all scribbly because he spends the weekend trying to figure out what he's gonna do, and he comes back the next week and says, Right, my job title is I'm gonna be the creative paradox, and they were like, sure.

SPEAKER_02

I had no idea.

SPEAKER_04

Anyway, and his plan was to never say no.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04

And they didn't know that. He said, Every idea, and then later when he would give talks about this, people would just constantly say, So you said no? I mean, sorry, you said yes to every idea, even when it deserved, I said, Yeah. So why? I say, Well, even people that um come up with these ideas, they they still like all they needed is a yes, yeah, just to know that their perspective on the world or their suggestion or what just I've thought about doing this, yeah, great, go give it a shot. And it comes back to this idea of and I find myself trying to encourage others as go have adventures, find serendipity, like find something that feeds your kind of creativity, or at least appreciate creativity in in some respect, and I think increasingly we um sometimes are losing that through what we're either doing in education, and so Ken Robinson always said this that schools kill creativity, and I still I think that's never been more true. Oh gosh, but it's also I I do get concerned at some time as is the online is that and I find myself doing this too where we spend too much time online now watching other people be creative and have adventures and watching other people go on these amazing little trips and or like that Japanese guy that dresses like an animal and is walking across Australia, and I can't remember his name now.

SPEAKER_00

But like we're and that might be lovely, but we're watching Oh my gosh, I could so see you doing that. Which animal would it be?

SPEAKER_04

Oh yeah, you know, some sort of onesie. But but but there's an element to this we're watching other people have adventures that we deserve to have.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's such a good thing.

SPEAKER_04

And I know that there's often a real challenge there around access and equity, and I I get that, but I would love to think that even people that don't think those sorts of opportunities are open to them have something at their fingertips that they can do to do something adventurous or or find a way of expressing their creativity or or f feeling they're part like part of some sort of creative endeavour. And yeah, I I I guess um yeah, I would love to work out a way that you can do that at scale, you know. And I think experiences people sometimes want a curated experience, like do lectures because it's safe, yes, and others are willing to literally pack a a a wheelbarrow and walk across Australia, like there's just different variations.

SPEAKER_00

Run across Australia, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well that's and that that's probably a lovely that's a lovely thing that um this is probably like a nice way to kind of wrap it out. Like one of the projects or one of the little side hustles I've been doing at work um started when I started at cool.org was this I looking at some research people have been doing around the role of hope and optimism.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and so I started to do this research on it, um, and we've ended up designing these two initial frameworks called the Hope Framework and the Act Framework.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

Uh and then through that I started to connect with researchers at Harvard University who, in a weird piece of serendipity, had done had been doing exactly the same research and had come up with similar findings, and they were really surprised at how we had come to our conclusions because they were so kind of aligned. But the the the role of the way we're looking at is the role of hope in a world that sometimes doesn't give you any, right? And so we defined it into three little areas, which was being able to rethink, which is a mindset thing, indeed, reframe, which is how you see things and how you perceive it, and then redefine, which is how do you want it to be different, yeah, so that it it can create hope. And then the f the kind of other side to this was we called it the act framework, which was sort of got its roots in design thinking, but increasing the narrative I'm hearing a lot, and Harvard actually we're just speaking to someone actually at Harvard this week. The narrative seems to be moving right away from all this stuff like design thinking as this sort of process, start here, finish there.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Instead, it's going towards thing of just jump in anywhere and work out what you need, and then you'll you'll you'll branch off from there.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04

And that's kind of what we've done with the ACT framework because we just looked at ends up it's there's there's no process to it. Yes. But we just looked at two lenses. We looked at scale and we looked at speed. And then depending on how you want to take action, those depends on which way you want to go.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And the number of people that you need, and indeed. So yeah, so I'm I'm kind of energized by that because that's um this year we're about to launch our new strategy, and those things are the kind of have become now the bedrock of the new strategy. Like, how do we really build a movement around hope and action?

SPEAKER_00

Wow, that's a perfect way to end. Hey Mish Curry.

SPEAKER_04

It'll keep me busy for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, hey Mish Curry, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for me, it was an amazing session of many different topics as I knew it would be. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

We could go for hours.

SPEAKER_00

We could. Let's go for dinner. All right. Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenious.com.au. Thanks so much.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, so all right, so that it seems to be recording. So the main thing will be the main thing is your audio.