#20 - Tim Buzza: Workforce Planning Technology, Contact Centre Leadership, Startups, and Designing a Life That Works

In this episode, Sam Bell speaks with Tim Buzza about workforce planning technology, leading large contact centre operations, building technology startups, and designing a life that allows both meaningful work and freedom.

Tim has spent decades working in customer operations and workforce planning environments where thousands of daily interactions depend on well-designed systems and thoughtful leadership. Alongside his operational leadership experience, he has also built and supported technology ventures focused on improving how organisations plan, manage, and support their workforce.

In this conversation, Tim shares practical insights from operating in complex service environments while also experimenting with entrepreneurship, remote work, and international travel.

Together, they explore the intersection between operational leadership, workforce technology, startup experimentation, and life design.

This episode explores:

• The realities of leading large contact centre and customer operations environments
• Workforce planning technology and the systems behind large service organisations
• Building and experimenting with technology startups
• Operational leadership and decision-making at scale
• Designing work that supports both performance and personal freedom
• Digital nomadding and creating flexibility in how and where work happens
• Entrepreneurial thinking inside and outside corporate environments

Guest links

Tim Buzza: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timbuzza/

Chapters

00:00 Tim’s background in contact centre operations
03:41 The hidden complexity behind large contact centres
07:56 Workforce planning technology and forecasting systems
12:44 The operational realities of managing large service teams
17:32 Entrepreneurship and building technology startups
23:18 Lessons from building products for workforce management
29:11 Technology, automation, and the future of contact centres
34:22 Leadership decisions that shape operational culture
40:14 Designing a life that allows travel and digital nomad work
46:05 Working internationally and experimenting with lifestyle design
51:38 Reflections on leadership, work, and future possibilities
56:40 Closing thoughts and thanks

Explore further

Book a Lab: https://naturalgenius.com.au
Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
Subscribe to hear future episodes.

Credits

Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Peregian Beach and Abruzzo, Italy, 25 February, 2026
Produced at the Violet Town and Peregian Beach offices, 25 February - 13 March, 2026
Natural Genius Podcast https://naturalgenius.com.au

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast. We're here to help you tap into your natural genius. Let's go. Get ready to hear about innovation in contact or call centres with Tim Buzzer. He is a wise, very big-hearted, I know I say that about a lot of people, but he expresses it and he also just does great design and advisory. He is very much for the people. So it's interesting that he's ended up in contact or call centre work. I'm so looking forward to hearing from Tim. It's been a while since we caught up and we get to catch up with him in Italy where he's now living. How delightful.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Thanks, Sam. It's great to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Oh, pleasure. And you're in the amazing, do I say Abruzzo? No, Abruzzo.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Abruzzo, well done.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

It's been a while since we caught up. So I want to hear about the four-wheel drive and India and Istanbul and it's been so long.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Probably 2019, was it? That we were just before COVID, somewhere fabulous on Byron Bay at a mutual friend's house. Like I think that was the last time we saw each other. It's so long ago. And yeah, a lot has happened in those years. Um, probably for both of us, but for for me, it's been a fabulous adventure. Uh, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah, startup through the pandemic is a story in itself, but the travel and the full drive in India and and and just tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Well, I think you know, it was in 2021 that we decided to leave Australia. It was back in the time when we needed to get permission off the government to leave the country, which is just absurd, like we try, I think most of us have tried to kind of block out that time. Um, but for us it was certainly a an opportunity to do something that we'd always wanted to do anyway. And our destination was always Italy, uh, and something we planned and my husband and I for quite a number of years, but to get to Italy at that moment in time required a little bit of a journey, and uh because Italy was one of the more heavily impacted countries during the pandemic, and so it wasn't the right time to come here, plus the there wasn't a visa opportunity as well. So there's a lot of things to navigate when you're kind of um nomading around the world and looking to settle down somewhere, and one of those things is getting a visa um that allows you to live in the country, um, and so the Italy had um had indicated that they were going to introduce a digital nomad visa, which is which is what they did and how we live here today. But we needed to wait for that to go through the in the the Italian uh bureaucracy to to come into life. We didn't know how long it was going to take. It was going to be years, but we didn't know how many years. Um, so in 2021, um we uh we sold up everything in Australia and uh we looked for somewhere on the map that we could move to that was not as locked down as Melbourne was, as we all know. Melbourne was a difficult place to live during the pandemic. And the there was a cup, there was really only there was one option which every freedom-loving person in the um uh sort of northern hemisphere was gravitating to, which was Mexico, but that didn't feel right, and um something about it was just not right, didn't feel right for us. And and uh and it turns out the reason why Mexico was open was because of the cartels. So the cartels didn't want to lose the income they were getting through tourism because they run a you know an extortion racket through in those in those cities, and they that they didn't want to lose that revenue, so they made sure that the the the those tourist cities and were remaining open through COVID in order to keep that income coming through. So whilst it was positive that the city stayed open, it was for kind of uh nefarious reasons, and it all just felt a little bit wrong. So the other option that we landed on was Istanbul. So Istanbul was fairly open, um, and it also has an airport that has the greatest reach of any airport in the world, so more destinations than anywhere else. So at the time we were uncertain as to what was the future look like, um, and where we we always wanted to be somewhere where it weren't too locked down, and so the choice was we chose it was Istanbul just for the practical reasons that it's open, um, we can go there, and if it does become locked down and and things get a bit chaotic in Istanbul, then we can fly literally to any country in the world from there. It's got a perfect sort of a perfect connection through the it through the through the airport there. That was our logic. We just like, okay, I'd never been to Istanbul, never thought about going there before. It was just completely random. Suddenly we're watching all these YouTube clips about life in Istanbul, and you know, because it was just like it was completely a random choice. Um, and and so we ended up making that choice and we moved to Istanbul and lived there for six months in the end. Um, so that was our first destination. Uh, it was grave too. What a wonderful story.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Well, oh gosh, Tim, I I've got to interject. Tell me, was that also was art part of it for the two of you? Because being culturally like interested in culture and art and so many things, I imagine that Istanbul would have been uh uh attractive from that point of view as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Absolutely. I mean, I it's such an inspiring place to be. It it is incredible, and of course, it's this hot pot of cultures, and it has been for thousands of years, because it's it is literally uh because of its geographic position and the sort of connection of an east and west, and it it means that it is the most diverse city I've ever lived in or spent time in. And if you go there as a tourist, you will see all of the beauty of Istanbul, of course, and and see all the remnants of the Ottoman Empire and the and uh Constantinople, Constantinople, and I lived in Greece for for a couple of years as well in this whole journey, and so Constantinopoly, as they would like to call it. Um, and so they um it's great as a gay couple, it was a fascinating place to live because of course this there's a very conservative element of Turkish society, which is um uh not very accepting of um same-sex couples, and then there's a very uh quite the opposite, there's a very open and progressive part of um of Turkish society. So we could we lived in a we lived in a suburb called Jihangia. Um, jihangia is a wonderful place, it's full of creatives and artists, and just really inspiring place to be. Just sit at the cafe and just meet the most interesting people. We would spend whole days at our local cafe and just just this people would pass by and join you for a conversation, and very is this and it was during sort of pandemic, so there wasn't a lot of tourism there, so you got to know a lot of locals. It was just wonderful. But then you could literally walk down the road from Jihangia, and there's a main there's a sort of a main road, and you would cross into Topani, which is the next sort of suburb next door. In Jihangia, not my husband and I really do this, we could walk around holding hands if we wanted to. But if you cross that road into Topani holding hands, then you would be in trouble. So there's this um and it was just fascinating how you have this great diversity of of people, of beliefs, of religions, of everything in this, in this in the what 20 million people city, so it's massive, but it's incredible and kind of unlayed. It's just it was so many layers of Islam to peel back that I could have, I could, I my favorite city in the world, I could, I could easily have spent many more years there. Um, because it just keeps it just every day something new would be revealed. Um, you'd meet people from all over the world and uh this the this you know a lot of Syrians and Lebanese and and um and other and uh uh Iraqis and Iranis, you know, all kind of coming into that, a lot of Russian people coming across because they can access without a they can get it, you know, access without a visa. And so these people cultures that I haven't in Australia you don't really learn a lot about. Like we've got a lot of you know very diverse country, but into these people and their experiences and learning about their lives was just fascinating. Yeah, and what I love Istanbul.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Oh you just described that so elegantly and eloquently, that was just a a slight trip down memory lane for me as well, because I loved being there as well. And I just I loved that some parts of Istanbul had not changed in decades, that the photos almost looked the same. And I know one of my favourite sights as a tourist there was the underground system and the incredible like atmospheric. It was um, I wonder if it was relatively new when I went there and saw the renovation that they'd done, and there was I think wooden walkways and then the the slight amount of water and then Medusa's head like on the side and massive sculpture and then this beautiful low lighting and uh music like strongly through that space of this underground waterway, and and then you pop out from there, and there's the top carpie palace and the blue mollusk, like it just it was just phenomenal to be it and all the incredible food and uh as you say, lots of art and culture. So, Tim, with that love of Istanbul, tell me what happened next and how did you decide to do period?

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I was we we had a a startup which we kicked off just as a pandemic opened, which was providing flexible working solutions to a contact center, flexible scheduling, empowering agents to make manage their own rosters, which um which I'm still uh which we ended up sell you know uh uh selling so we exited about a year ago, and now I contract to the company that we sold that to. Um so it's it was a successful journey. So we're you know, we successfully grew this startup um while journeying. Yeah, yeah, whilst traveling around and working all sorts of different hours.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

And Tim, if I can can I just ask also, was that um did that idea come to be because of the pandemic, or that was just the timing that you just well, well, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

It was just just a coincidence that that sort of opened the world's mind was opening up to the the benefits of flexible working when we kick that off. So we we kind of formed a company in 2019 and um and launched in January, February of 2020. So it was just like it was prior to, but on the cusp band. Um so it was pretty good timing in the sense that we were able the market was primed um for us, so that that was great. And we were able to, you know, we successfully um you know sold to companies like Telstra and Woolworths and and other big Australian organizations got on board, which was fantastic. Um it was very interesting. So we then um you know, doing that whilst working remotely, unlocking flexibility for myself, I think you know, my passion is about um enabling people to live more in a with more freedom, to more empowerment, to be more self-determinate, to remove the the constraints in our our ways of working, social structures, etc., that prevent people from accessing that um self-determined reality that you and I both value enormously, I know, and and the value that it can bring. So part of my kind of journey towards fulfilling that purpose is to experiment on myself, to unlock what you know, for myself, what flexible working can bring to me, um, which was one of those experiences of living in Istanbul for a period of time and discovering you know cultures that I'd never and immersing in cultures that I'd never experienced before. That was one of many benefits that flexible working has brought myself. But it comes from experimenting. Um, and I have you know, and I I make myself you know my own guinea pig in exploring, you know, what are the limits of flexible working that I can tap into. Um, and what if I if I explore those limits, what experiences can that unlock and what life can that bring? Um I don't have children, so for me that's a it's something different, but for other people that you know it's it may be other goals and other aspirations that it could unlock for them. So one of those goals in my life was to I've been to India many, many, many times, and but one thing I'd never really done was um explore the Himalayas. And so one of the goals that I had in my life, which this startup and flexible working enabled me to do was my husband and I to do was to go to India, buy a four-wheel drive, um, and then go and self-drive and explore the sort of outreaches of the Himalayas. And we drove to you know, Layla Dak, the Spity Valley, um Um Kashmir, um, you know, all through these incredible, sketchy, dangerous roads with cliffs that dropped two kilometers. Um, you know, it was just extraordinary. And whilst, you know, I remember like I was having conversations whilst we were in LA and adjusting to the altitude with you know these you know, Woolworths and Telstra and these companies in Australia which were you know um uh uh signing up and uh onboarding to the app that we developed um whilst in these you know incredible places. And it was very surprising.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And generally it's so surreal, Tim. And generally this worked all the time, or did you how did you have that connectivity?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Uh it's incredible. Like um India, because of the population, um they have, I mean, I did carry three SIM cards, but I've always managed to have very good um sort of 5G, 4G connections. In the most places, you think, well, how is that even possible? But they have the population that supports these, you know, that sort of network. Whereas it's very different to Australia where we small population, big country, you know, big country, big population. Um, and so there's enough of a market for to provide to enable those companies to provide with great amazing access. I mean, I I we went over um the fourth highest road in the world, it wasn't the highest, but you know, we're above base camp driving, you know, and we still had still had connection. Um, so we that was a weird experience. We drove around with um uh cans of oxygen in the car because you go from sort of three and a half, four thousand meters to six thousand meters, then back down again, and that would happen in just a few hours. Um and so normally you'd hike your way up over a few days to you know we were literally a few hundred meters above Everest Base Camping with one height for some of these buses. So you could driving up and saying, I'm feeling a bit wobbly, you know, feel a little drunk. So you grab the drive. Take a map, take a big sort of breath, couple of you know, chugs of oxygen and then keep going.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Um and oh Tim, and I I just feel like your clients were so lucky because they were getting great advice from you and uh assumedly getting a lot out of this new app. Yeah, and at the same time, where are you calling from? What have you been up to in the last few days?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

There's some value in that um, you know, that relationship building that happens with the customer because you're you know, it opens up, it's a safe conversation, you get to build that relationship, get to share a little bit about yourself. Um, because you know, obviously where I was working from was interesting, the backgrounds were always different. Um, where are you to where are you this week? You know, became a common theme to kick off you know, sort of the weekly check-ins with the customers, but how much I loved, of course. It was always nice to to share that with them and um uh you know, even if they're give them a little vicarious outlet, uh, which was fun.

unknown 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Oh Tim, I feel so grateful that you said yes to recording this conversation because I like you, I don't want to, I don't want to interject, I just want you to keep talking. So you can just tell me more. And also as you're talking about India, I'm remembering a really lovely woman I met last year was telling me about her and her friend. Her friend hadn't even driven a motor ridden a motorbike before, they bought motorbikes in the Himalayas somewhere in India, and then they just went motorbike riding, and sometimes they got lost, and I was just like, oh my gosh, but some people like I mean, we all have different risk tolerance and like adventure tolerance, and goodness, I mean, you two must have the most amazing stories, and back to what you were saying about in Istanbul and sitting in the cafe all day. I felt so fortunate for the people that were stopping by and chatting to you two, and now you're talking about all the different people that you met up with, it's just extraordinary.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

That's the great thing about traveling, or actually, no, not traveling. Traveling is yes, for sure, but there's incredible amounts of insight and experiences that are unlocked when you live in a place for a period of time, just anchor there for a bit. And so six months, 12 months. Um, not to not and then you start to get to know the people, they start to open up, you start to learn about their lives, and you start to uh I I I for me that's incredibly valuable. And so, you know, in the time in this sort of whole journey, we we lived in Istanbul, we we we did have a base in um in India, so we would based ourselves in Chandigarh, which is um just sort of at the foothills of um of the Himalayas, and we would then do sort of trips for you know a month or so and then come back again and then do another trip and come back again, so that these loops through the Himalayas. And then when the monsoon came and we couldn't get back up into the Himalayas because of all the um, and it happens every year, thousands, I'm sure if it's thousands, but at least hundreds of people die every year from the monsoon floods up in the Himalayas. It's not at the top because it's a desert, but on the way up, you have to go through um places like Manali and Shimla and you know um and other sort of sort of access the Himalayas, and they always get flooded every year and people die, and it's very tragic, and you just it's just dangerous. So we went to the um to the desert, so Rajasthan through and explored there. We drew a loop. So we were living in one place, and and again, then we moved to Greece after after all of that and lived there for a couple of years, and then when the visa finally got introduced in Italy, we moved here. So we had a long a long enough period of time in each of these countries, countries that I knew not a lot about, except for India, but everybody was new to me. Um, and you just get to experience what life is like for people um in a very different world, uh, their perspective, their understanding of reality, and it it's just it's expands, expands, expanded me as a human being, every one of those interactions. So it's addictive, it is addictive for sure. And we've got it to you feet again. We've been here in India, Italy now for a year, and we're renovating a house. We can't really go anywhere while those renovations are happening. And so my husband and I were both kind of reflecting only last week about how we're ready to kind of explore again, but we need to stay here probably for another 12 months just to finish the project that we're on underway. But yeah, it is uh it's part of it's a thrilling thing to be able to experience.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Amazing. And what about uh through Europe and weekend trips? It's probably it's I mean, you're just describing different versions of travel and adventure and connection with communities.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

I mean, a safe a lot of people ask me. Why have you left Australia? And I get that also here in Italy, because a lot of people in Italy and in Greece all the time, why would you come here? We want to go there. And so there's a lot of um it's a common question that we get is why did you leave Australia and why do you want to live here? Because this is from the locals. And part of it is just accessibility to the rest of the world, for sure, to your point. Like it is Australia, it is a beautiful country, but it is on the edge of the world. And just to get anywhere beyond Bali is a mission. Um, and so that that's definitely part of it. Um, but it's deeper than that. Uh the safest analogy I can give that doesn't seem to offend people, um, my friends in Australia, is that um some people enjoy going for a stroll in a beautiful garden. They like to go to like to sit on the park bench and take in the beautiful flower beds and the perfectly groomed and manicured lawns, and it's where they find their peace, where they find where they where they are most relaxed. Other people enjoy going for a walk through a forest, enjoying the sound of the birds, and the you know, yes, that you don't know where the track's gonna lead you, and you don't know what's around the corner. You've got to watch where you step because there's going to be rocks that you could trip over, but that's where they find their peace. And no one of those two options is right or wrong, it's just what is right for you. And for me, I'm the walk through a forest, and I like that little bit of chaos, a little bit of uncertainty. I I like I feel most at peace where that is in that environment. And so countries like India, Greece, Turkey, and even Italy, they have a bit of um, they have something that's organized to a point, but just enough for it to be functional. And above that, it's chaotic, but it's chaotic in a in a way that I which actually gives me comfort and ease. It's the it's the natural forests through chaos. Um so I think it's really just the choice. So there's nothing wrong with Australia, but Australia for us just felt I felt a little bit suffocated by the level of order and um, dare I say control in the culture. Um, and and that's uh that's not that it's wrong, it's just not for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Oh, I hope so too, Tim.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

It's uh I assume it would be no no, I assume that it wouldn't be a good idea. Yeah, and there's and there's you know, there's no no place is better than the other place, it's just what where you feel at most at ease. And so we've ended up in Italy, and I think it's sort of that balance between order and chaos is pretty good here. Greece was also very similar.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I quite like that and I wonder if it stretches into new parts of your brain, Tim. That um I I remember a couple of times, once in Japan and once in India, that my usual operating model of the world was really uh shaken by sending something, and it wasn't particularly traumatic or anything, it was actually just observing systems in different countries. One was toilet slippers in Japan, and I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And then um after I thought about it, and the second one was um sending four lanes of traffic on two lanes, um, you know, one lane going each one in India. And I'm it's you know, I'm an industrial engineer that is is about optimizing systems. And I and I also loved in India like the the horns seem to be like coming through and in Australia it's like get out of my way.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, it's very different. It's very actually driving in different countries, and I've now driven in like 20 different countries in my life, and it's very it's very interesting how the different systems like I definitely like you, my brain kind of clicks into these into analyzing the systems um that are working because they do work. So India's a the most extreme example. I and spending six months driving around India um was fascinating. The I only want to describe it, I think there is a this is a word, it's this idea of chaotic systems. So it's chaos and order coexisting. Um, and it has to be that way. So the diversity of vehicles in sort of broad definition of vehicles on the road. So from uh from bicycles to camels pulling carts to the odd elephant in Rajasthan, um to uh people pulling um you know uh like tuktuks to actual electric tuktuks, I mean sorry, mechanical tuktuks, uh then you've got cars, and then you've got trucks, and then you've got cows and also um other and many people on motorbikes, like many passengers. Many, many motorbikes. So if you have all that diversity of vehicles using one system, one road network, in the Australian or Western sort of European mindset, the way in which we would order and structure that is in because we don't have the diversity of vehicles, we actually have different lanes and different rules for each of those different vehicles. And we try and organize it so that they all can navigate with each other. So you but it's so you would have a a lane for a motorbike, a truck lane and a car lane, and that kind of sorts it out, but you can't do that in here, you can't have a lane for the cows and a lane for the for the camels and a lane for the motorbikes and a lane for the tuk-tooks, and the you couldn't, and you can it's just impossible. You need to have a road that was six kilometers wide to to organize that traffic into the way we organize things in in our road network. So it kind of has it it has to be the way it is, there's no other way. Um, and it but it works, and it becomes so when driving there, something happens after a couple of months when you're driving around, where if somebody said, How did you know that you could pull out then? Um, because you and you can't I was like, Well, I can't actually consciously answer that question, it's just becomes an unconscious awareness where you just in you just become in embedded in that system and you just know. So it's a it's an unconscious um uh sensing sensing of it, yeah, yeah. And you can't give an explanation, it's just like that was the right moment. Um, and it's yeah, it's very interesting, and and it just and it and I think everybody clicks into that mode eventually, and it just works. So if you take a and did you find this of Indian traffic, and and they see it on YouTube all the time where you go, that's mad. How does that even that's like it looks mad, but when you're in it, it's not mad. It's there's a there's a certain there is a chaotic sensibility to it that you can't consciously describe, but unconsciously you feel and you navigate um uh actually after a while, unconsciously and seamlessly. It's just like getting in the car and driving up the road here.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

So it's very I think also maybe sometimes those YouTube, some of the YouTube videos can look um scarier than I experienced, but I was running down the south. I haven't been to the other parts of the yet. Um Yeah, I'm sure you had some very challenging moments, uh, especially by the sounds of those roads in the north. This moment is about your natural genius. If there's a spark within you that wants to develop a lighter way, a clearer signal to achieve more, I'd like to work with you one-on-one. If you're after inspired directioning what you have to give, get in touch with me via our website, naturalgenious.com.au. Now back to the natural genius. Uh tell me more about tell me a bit about living in Greece because I feel like I I would I could spend the whole time talking about Italy. Uh sorry, yes, Italy and um Istanbul and India. I'm just curious to know a bit about Greece as well.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

It's a beautiful country and um beautiful people and wonderful food. And uh you know, I I we our heart sort of pines for Greece after a year of living here in Italy. Um, you know, we still given the choice, I'd still choose to live here. Um, but it I'm I am torn. A part of me sort of now is uh always going to, you know, I've got we've got friends there, and you just you just want to go back. Um, it's an interesting country that um has a piece to it under the surface, like definitely the people in Greece have had a very difficult um couple of decades, and their the economy's been challenging and jobs are difficult and the incomes are very low. So a a school teacher in Greece earns 850 euros per month. So to give you an idea, and and rents and real estate prices are through the roof in there's no way. I mean, it costs you$800 a month just in rent. So if you're if you're if your income barely covers or doesn't cover rent, then how do you survive? So it's a there's certainly a challenging um place to in that respect. And the other and 70%, I believe 70% of the economy is tourism now, uh, and that's very seasonal. So people go to the islands and work for six or eight months, you know, and they work 24 hours a day, six days a week, well not 24, but 18 hours a day, six days a week, um, for you know, all that season, then come back. And and so it's you know, it's it's not a it's not an easy place for the Greeks. So that that that's on the surface. Beautiful people as well, you know, you know, strength through through um through resilience is the example of resilience is is phenomenal. But it's also a difficult place. I'll get to the I want to get to something else, but the other thing interesting part about Greece is it's takes longer to get to know people in Greece, the Greeks to open up to you in a in a in a uh because of their listening, don't I hope I don't offend again anyone, but just my observations. It's an interesting history. Greece itself is an ancient country, but it's actually also a very new country. Um, and um, and so uh for most of the history from ancient Greece through to the modern Greece in the mid-ween, there was the Ottoman Empire, there was the Persians, there was the the Nazis, there was the um the Venetians, you know, everybody's had a crack at ruling Greece over that history. So they actually didn't have their own independence until very recently for a for a long period um in history, hundreds, not thousands of years. And so there's a natural um uh cultural uh protective kind of immune system around who we let into our inner circle. Um I think it's just emerged because of that history. And so to you the very, very beautiful, friendly people on the surface, but to get beyond the surface to actually get to know somebody on a sort of personal level and a deep level, it takes time to build that relationship. We were there long enough to do that. Um but for a little while felt very kind of like, oh, this is a beautiful, friendly people, but how do you get to know them? Like they don't really open up. Um, but eventually, yeah. So it just takes time. So it was a very that was intriguing to sort of see that. And I didn't know really the Greek history that well until living there, and to sort of start to talk to people and they explain it to you and explain why they are this way. Um, so that that was interesting from a cultural perspective, but then there's the land, that's what I wanted to get to. There's something very magical about Greece. Um, it is a profound place, and so underneath that cultural kind of you know um suffering that has existed, below that is this healing um uh uh geography, um, the location, there's something magical in the soil of Greece. I can't explain it, I can't I can just say that most of the healing herbs that um that are in our Western herbal medicine um uh uh you know Medica grow wild in Greece. Just think of that for a second. So everything you walk across in spring, we're going back in May this year just because it's the most beautiful time of the year. You walk across uh open land in in spring, and every step releases an aroma of a different herb. It's just phenomenal. You step on, you know, it's chamomile, it just fills the air, then you step on some thyme and it fills the air, then you step on some oregano and it fills the air. It's just extraordinary, and it's it that all of that grows wild in in between the rocks of this sort of harsh land, and there's something magical there. Uh so uh that's that is extraordinary. Um, if anybody ever gets the chance to go to Crete, in the center of Crete, there is a in the mountains, a bit of a drive to get there, there is a little um wooden hut that's uh that uh actually a Dutch lady who's married to a Greek man has lived there all of her life, she has dedicated her life to um uh to capturing the knowledge and of the of the the herbs that grow in the the mountains of Crete. And just to go there, and we end up going back there three days in a row and just sitting there and sipping on the herbal teas, um, and just taking taking it in because this lady's just dedicated her life to recover, you know, recovering this knowledge and capturing this the the healing properties of these herbs um and uh and sharing them with the world. And it was amazing, it was just this incredible spot. So there's some place without a doubt, it's a very, very special place.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

So remarkable. And before you said Crete, I was thinking of Crete because I did the walk, uh, one of the walks from the hills down to the beach in Crete, and that was absolutely outstanding. And in May, tell me from that experience, Tim, what have you integrated within your own life?

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Like, are there certain herbs that you have day to day, or is it just this lovely awareness of having learned this the I guess there's two herbal teas I I that are both adaptogenic in their in their properties and both from two of my favourite countries, so Tulsi, the the the basil? Yeah, and it's an adaptogenic herb that sort of naturally uh you know treats what needs treating, so to speak. And the other adaptogenic herb from Greek from Crete from Crete as well as Greece is the um Crete, the mountain tea. So I forget the term of it. In in Greece they just call it mountain tea, but it's a particular herb that grows um uh wild, but they're now cultivating it because there was issues with too many people um uh you know wild wild harvesting it. And so it was starting to threaten the the the uh the threaten the herbs you know sustainability. But um so now it's been cultivated as well, which is great. So you know Greek, it's Greek, it's just called Greek mountain tea or Crete mountain tea. But it's it's an amazing herb, and that's also very good. Um, and the other magical medicine of of Greece, which I always crave and I've run out of, and another reason to go back to Greece is the honey. Um, the honey from Greece is just the best in the world. I cannot tell you how good it is. And it's all and each of the islands has their own honey and their own natural kind of you know herbal um garden that's growing that that the bees are feeding on, and and you know, you'll and you can get you know you can get thyme honey, you can get holly honey, you can get you know this all the different honeys. Um there's one honey we discovered in um in uh in the Peloponnese, which only happens every few years where the um I forget the I think they're elm trees, I think they're elm trees, where the little mite um gets into it's it's got to be perfect conditions for this where this little mite burrows into the into the into the trees and it releases and that releases some sap. Uh and then the the bees come and feed off the sap. Uh and then that produces particular honey, which looks like um molasses, it's black honey. And and it's extra and it's thick too, like it's really it's got a different mouthfeel, and it was extraordinary, and it only happens when you know every now and then, not every year, when particular kind of environmental conditions allow for these mites' population to explode and then cause them to be leaked and etc. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Whoa, I can feel your heart expansion. I'm so pleased to hear about that. And tell Tim, I'm mindful of your time, I don't want to take too much, but goodness, I could just listen to your stories till the end of time. Um, is there anything else that you wanted to talk to? We didn't even get to contact centres and AI and stuff like that. No, we didn't have to, but is there anything that you want to share about what you love or any of your other stories? We didn't even talk about Italy yet.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

No, well, Italy's one story, but um the the really um I think the interesting thing that sort of links this all together is this passion for unlocking freedom, um, unlocking that self-determinate kind of way of being. And that's been and my my job, my my my company and what I do is about enabling systems of work that actually create that same opportunity for other people that I've been able to create for myself. And that may not be exploring the world, it could be just being able to spend more time with my children, um, you know, being present, more present for my family, you know, whatever that way of being is that you that that that somebody wants to create in their life. Um so that's that's really the the linking um sort of thread here. And what I have learned is that the the the true determinant of of that freedom of being able to be more self-determining isn't control over where you work or where I live, even though we've been talking a lot about place here, it's more to do with time, control over our time, and that's the thing that has been uh a very abstract concept to explore, but also to to unlock for people. So we go to school and the bell rings and it and we go to our next class, the bell rings, we go to recess, the bell rings, the next class, and so on. And so an external authority has control over our time as children. Then most people then go from schools to uh university, they've got a little bit more freedom with their time, um, and then from there into a job. And a lot of frontline jobs, you know, that we have, whether it be factory work, call center work, or other roles like that, retail, hospitality, etc., there's still an external authority controlling our time. It's the employer saying, at this time you need to be at work, at this time I need you to take your break, at this time I want you to do this task, and so on. So it's their time is being ordered, structured, and controlled by an external authority. And most people go through a lot of people, not even say most people, go through their entire lives not even conscious of the fact that there is an external authority controlling their time, determining how they spend their time. Um, and that has been the the biggest unlock that I have seen for um in in in work and in life for people is um giving people taking away that external authority and giving them the power to manage their own time. And I've been able to do that in a call center, which with the software we developed, which has been profound, because call centres are the most controlled, some of the most controlled modern uh workplaces. And so when we give people control over their time, we give people the ability to self-manage and um and and uh and the empowerment to do that, there's something profound that happens. I have the best job in the world, because every time. I roll out this solution to people and give them that, there's emotional response, there's tears, there's gratitude, there's um there people literally saying, I never knew I needed this, you know, it's it's changed my life in ways I never I never knew that my life could be changed. It's extraordinary. It's absolutely extraordinary. Which which for me is the biggest challenge is to how how do I communicate to the world that we've got this massive opportunity to transform people's lives by empowering people to be have control but give people back control over their time to create new systems of work that that allow that to take place. We've got we've made this progression now where we think flexible working is allowing people to work from home, but they're still having to follow the you know the bouncing ball, even though now they've changed their location. Um, it's not really the the big unlock. The big unlock is is of giving people control over their time.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Wow, Kim. I what I heard in what you just said is that I wonder also through your spiritual practice and the person that you are, you can still stay grounded to be amongst all those accolades and to then keep on propelling yourself into the next client, the next client, and next implementation. That is so extraordinary to hear the profound effect of your work. And what it must you must have such delight and pride from so many years that you've been doing this to be able to bring that to be.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's it well, I'm definitely I'm not my motivation hasn't decreased because um it's a constant challenge to get um businesses and leaders to see the opportunity to acknowledge that the problem exists. One of the biggest challenges with with any new product is um is uh getting people to sit with the problem long enough in order to uh then understand the solution. Um and that's the that's really interesting because a lot of people don't like sitting in sitting in the problem.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

And that's how do you uh leadership development came to mind when you were talking about that, but how do you how do you know how do you how does your client develop enough to be in a situation where they can be open to this discussion and that how do you open that for them?

SPEAKER_02 46:29

It's difficult. I think the the the usually what happens is that there's enough of a a the business problem of absenteeism and attrition turnover, etc., is an is enough, and then they're throwing the kitchen sink at it. Um in contact centers, I started as a call center consultant at Foxtel in 1998, and we had an annual attrition of around 35%, so 35% every year of the workforce would leave. Today the industry average in globally is somewhere between 40 and 50 percent, and that's despite in that 30 years, us throwing everything at that problem, you know, of trying to keep to better engage the workforce in these work in these environments. We've the industry's failed, like absolutely failed in that 30 years, despite all the things we've implemented, all of the different solutions that we've attempted from starting fruit on Friday afternoons in the breakout room to um all you know, what else have we done? We've provided um you know different working conditions, increased salaries, we've done all sorts of things to improve engagement in the in the workforce, but it's actually still got worse. The industry's performing worse than it was 30 years ago. Because at the core, we've got this issue with the design of the work. So it doesn't matter what you paint over the top of it, you've still got this fundamental job design issue, um, which I I mean I calling it out, is it's largely to do with this highly rostered working environment because which is incoherent with the modern person's life. And if you've got incoherence between work and life, then then and unless you resolve that incoherence, then there's always going to be that tension and it results in attrition. So that's that's the problem you can put in a business speak, but getting people to understand this is my biggest confrontation for me, is looking at the fact that I spent nearly 20 of those 30 years working in that industry, contributing to a system that actually was causing harm to people. So I was a people leader who cared passionately about the well-being of my staff and dedicated my life to that, to creating a good experience for those people who I was I felt responsible for, not knowing that even though that was my motivation, I was actually contributing to a system that fundamentally at its core was causing harm. And so you have that's a big aha moment. Now you either can look that in the eye or you don't, and and which is the the challenge. So my latest sort of exploration is how do you get people to look to be again get back to this point about being able to sit within the prop problem and be uncomfortable long enough in order to get the insights in order to find solutions. And therefore, and I've got this, you know, you know the Kinevin model where you have of different sorts of systems of you know, simple, complex, complicated, uh so simple, complicated, complex, and then he uses chaotic um systems, this you know, four different systems, and there's different approaches and ways of being in each of those. My theory is he had the last one wrong and chaotic. It's not chaotic, it's just that those the problem that is emergent in that in that in that um in that space is uh existential, right? So it's an existential problem, and therefore we respond to that in a different way than we do to the problems that exist in complex, chaotic, complex, complicated, or simple um domains. If it's existential, it means it's a threat to my existence. That's the definition of existential or threat to existence. It's not necessarily a threat to life, it could be a threat to my worldview, it could be my threat to my understanding of myself, it could be a threat to my ego, it's a threat, it's a threat to the existence of uh an aspect of yourself, basically. Um, and that's when we're faced with an excess an existential threat, people respond in a couple of different ways. Usually they respond with denial or normalization of the problem. So it's always been like that. Um, you know, uh it's not as it's not that big a deal. Um, you look at the systems of work in my space that where I explore the systems of work, we say, well, that's how we've always been. So we have always had rosters um that tell people when to work. That's been the case in my father's life and my grandfather's life and my great-grandfather's life. As long as I can think back into living and and you know, genetic memory, that's the way it's always been. So you can easily go into denial or normalization of that problem. Um, and and so that's what that's the natural that's kind of the response that people have. Instead of actually sitting with it long enough in order to see that there's to find a solution, you deny, normalize the problem, and then we just you know look away. And I think that's the challenge. I'm I think that's a excellent it's a problem not just in my field where I work, because I'm on the edge of unlocking new ways of working, and that's where I like to play and trying to get people to engage. I can't sell them a solution unless they acknowledge the problem. That's the if they're going to go into denial or um normalize normalize it, then how do you ever sell it to them? So that's the I think that's that's where I'm exploring at the moment is how to overcome that barrier. Um it's yeah, that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

That is extraordinary, Tim. I'm so so pleased that we got to this uh in the conversation. Um, are you okay to keep going for another 10 minutes or so? Oh, thank goodness. I just felt too early to finish it. But um uh so uh what I also just heard the outcomes that you get, it must be so lovely, Pim, because of that that what you just described of the state that people are in when you come in to help out. Um and also you probably have some pretty battered and bruised clients that uh you're managing as you're implementing or as you're designing uh to help them work out how things are going to be better. What a shining light you are.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

It's thank you. It's kind of you to say that. I I you hope that you I mean, part of my way of my way of life is to just try and live a life of example because one thing I did learn the hard way was trying when faced with this, uh you can see like we've all been there where we can see a problem that needs fixing. Yell from the from the treetops, from the you know, at the top of your voice that you know, look over here, this needs fixing, and nobody's listening. You know, we've all felt at different times of our life where you can see something, it's so blaringly obvious to you, and yet you can't get anybody else to to kind of see what you see. Um it's it and the and I've tried, and that's kind of where I spent I've felt like I've spent a lot of my time is in that place. It's like you know, pulling my hair out. Can't you see that what you're doing is causing harm to people, you know, and but you think you're a good person, and I'm sure you are a good person, but every day you go to work and you're actually causing harm feeling, you know, and but that's not gonna get them to open up because you're just then threatening, you're just going into that um existential problem space, and people just look away. I don't want to hear that. Uh so standing and preaching doesn't work. Um, you know, standing on top of the pulpit and saying, you need to do this differently, it doesn't work. It's it's the most ineffective way in which you can tackle that existential problem space. Um, and so I think the only way is to live a life of example, and that's it. Nothing more than that. And so part of my life and why I think I, you know, the the the marrying up of this adventurous life of living in different places and living, you know, the way I the life that we live, it marries up with the work that I do because I'm experiencing the benefits of of that freedom of working, of systems of work that I've created for myself, and I can show that through example of my life, and hopefully that then isn't attracted to other people to explore that for themselves and not preaching, not standing on the pulpit, just just being. It's still my biggest challenge. Every now and then I just look at stuff and I just want to yell at yell at the you know at the boys and say, Don't you know? Can't you see that this is the way it is? But something it doesn't it doesn't achieve anything. All it does is make you frustrated.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

There's this conversation at the moment about AI and people talking to AI as a counsellor or to be able to expand into different areas of their being.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

And you've just described a channel for people to get into themselves more deeply through changing up the way that they work. And it's so lovely to talk to another person who is innovative and a systems thinker and curious as to how to make things better for people. It's just so wonderful to hear what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

I think there's something I'm gonna say, this I would go down a very abstract path that some that's here. My experience of reality is everything we experience on the external world is just a mirror of what is available to us on our inner world. So getting into the spiritual side of things if you wanted to find it that way. So technology is no different. So on a uh, I think a natural state of being, uh deep inner uh level, we are all interconnected, we are all communicating with each other all of the time. Um, there's another level of uh reality where that's true, and then on the physical level, we create technology that enables that. Same thing. So then a physical world is just mirroring what is already a reality on a deep inner level, inner sorry, inner reality, like you almost call it dimensional realities. So this inner dimension, external dimension. And so we have technology that enables us all to be interconnected, whether it's a mobile phone, internet, etc. So that's that's just mirroring our natural state of being, but on a in a third-dimensional physical reality. AI is also just a mirror of our inner reality, which is a connection to our higher self, to an all-knowing self that's already there, that's already exists. And so we're again we're manifesting on the physical world in our physical world a mirror of what is already a reality on our inner world. So this AI is an expression of that reality, is that and so on. So, you know, the physical reality just keeps on expanding to in response to what is already true within ourselves. So, yeah, there's a risk people will default to an AI version of their higher self as opposed to tapping into their actual higher self, their actual inner wisdom. Um, and that's true. Um, that is the trap, but isn't that already the trap of the external world? That you know, the external world can, you know, we we give ourselves over to that and we we don't tap into our inner self. So as a result, because we're constantly being distracted by by um drawn to this kind of this the dramas, the crises, the technologies, whatever it might be of the external. So, you know, finding that balance. I'm not saying the physical world is a bad place, it's just that you know, I understand it's where it sits within the the layers of reality that we that we exist within. Um I think that that's interesting. That's how I sort of see AI um as an evolving technology. I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think you know um it's just it's just it's just technology and how we how we utilize it, how we engage with it, how we use it. It's going to require more discretion um than previous technologies um have required. And how how much discretion people bring to that um is going to determine what impact it has on their lives.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

And you you and I are uh like-minded in that we've been through the introduction of computers and then the introduction of you know, gone through the dot-com and then gone through social media and then crypto and there or web3 and now into AI as well. So it's interesting to see the similarities, Tim, through those new technologies that come in.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Yeah, I've got a lot of, I've got a lot of time for AI. A lot of people might you know you'd be surprised by some people I know would be surprised, but I think it's a I think it's a phenomenal technology. I think it's enormous potential to contribute to to our lives. There's uh and in an industry like the one that I work in, it's definitely you know evident as we move into this agentic agentic AI is is manifesting now. It's still that it's sort of it's still fairly nascent, but it's being sold as already here. So a lot of companies are sort of like making this investments into a genetic AI. Uh it's still probably a bit early in some cases, but it's it's going to keep growing. So I think that's um very exciting for a lot of people. But this is my great hope for AI is that it helps humanity work out what it is to be human. Because I don't think we think about that as at all. We just it's just an assumed thing. I'm human. But what is that, what does that actually mean? How do you define being human? Um, and so that that I think is the most interesting thing, and in of just a very simple example of how that might express itself in call centers. You ring we ring a call center now when we've got a problem it needs solving. That's the only reason why people call calls paying a bill or there's an error on my bill, whatever it might be. Um now, if I just want an answer to my problem, uh, an answer to my question, then an agentic AI answer will be perfectly okay. That'll do that that solves my problem. I want to, I want that why is why does my electricity bill gone how why is it increased? Speak to an uh an AI agent, answers the question, problem solved. But if I'm angry about it going up, and I've got an and I and I want emotional, I want some, I want that emotion to be resolved, not just the facts of the situation to be resolved. That's the human part. And so I will want to speak to a human that says to me, I uh oh, I'm very sorry, that's happened to you. I understand why you're frustrated, whatever that there's an emotional transaction, interaction, not transaction, that takes place between the the two parties. An AI can simulate emotion for sure. You know, you can't tell the difference between an AI and a human and you know the way in which they communicate and these energetic solutions that are coming about to a point. But if we go deep, emotion is energy. Oh, there's a great saying emotion is energy in motion. Uh, it's it's transrational in its way it operates, it's interdimensional in the way it operates. You and I are sitting on other parts of the world, but we are actually emotionally transacting and interacting with each other right at this minute, and we can feel that. Um, and that's an amazing thing. It's it's all you know, it's it's happening in real time, and yet we're not even adjacent to each other physically. So that's gonna be so this there's an aspect of the human human human being that is energetic, that interacts, and I think the AI um coming into our experience will help more people discover that, become conscious of that, start to explore what matters to me, why is this interaction feeling like it's valuable to me, and that one over here isn't. Um, even though they both achieved the same out same same practical outcome, one of them actually resolved it for me, and one didn't on an emotional level. Yeah, that's just that's just in call centers. Like, so there's layers and layers of that to peel back that I think AI can bring it up.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

I totally agree, Tim. I think that it's about uh what it's like to be human as well as what it's like to be human as this individual that I am. So into my individuality as well, there's so much uniqueness that the rosters or the the time that people have been indebted to um has stopped from that flourishing or from that uh coming out. So I think I'm with you. I completely believe that this technology is going to help in a way. It's a bit disappointing that Hollywood and other media will actually sort of grow the fear around it, whereas everything, I mean you and I saw it with social media and other things. It has its light and its dark. So um let's not let the dark have too much airplay compared, you know, balance it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

So I think it this technology has arrived at a certain time in our history as a species which is logical, where we are actually in this tension between light and dark. So, you know, like that's that's that's obviously manifesting on the planet. But I think we're also starting a bit of a cleanup. So, yes, I think if this technology arrived 20 years ago, we would be in all sorts of trouble. But it's arriving at a time, I know that most people a lot of people think the world's you know the worst it's ever been, but it's not. It really isn't. We can see things now that we can never see before, so it looks worse than it was, but those problems were always there. Now they're on the surface, so we can clean it up. So I think that we're actually as a species in a place where the great cleanup is happening, and therefore the rubbish has floated from the bottom of the sea to the to the surface, but it was always there, and now we can clean it up, and that's what's happening right now uh on the planet. Now, if AI had arrived when the rubbish was at the bottom of the sea and we couldn't see it, it would have that's that the light versus the dark, we would have potentially gone in sort of in the wrong direction. But where we are now, AI has arrived at the same time as the great cleanup is happening, and we're starting to, and whilst, yes, keep come back to my point. I think it's one I want to kind of really drive home. If you think the world is worse than it's ever been, it's only because you can now see stuff that we could never see before. It was always there, it's not worse than it's ever been. Now we can see we can clean it up. And so, yes, yeah, it's technology is arriving. At the right time.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

I just want to say a massive thank you. There have been so many topics that we've covered that I didn't expect us to, but that's part of the delight of these conversations. Thank you, thank you, thank you for your time and your perspective. And as I said a few times through this conversation, for the work that you do and how it affects so many people. I love hearing about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

It's my pleasure. Thank you. Let's keep in touch.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:26

Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius Podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenious.com.au. Thanks so much.