#24 - Michael Skinner: Earning Bigger Problems, the Skill of Surrender, and Digital Nomading

What if you don’t solve problems, you earn better ones?

Michael Skinner shares how learning to earn bigger problems, and practicing surrender, can reshape how you work, decide, and grow in a fast-moving world.

In this episode of the Natural Genius podcast, Sam Bell speaks with Michael Skinner about growth, decision-making, and navigating an increasingly complex world. Michael shares a simple idea that reframes how we think about progress. You don’t eliminate problems. You earn bigger ones. Over time, those problems become more meaningful, more interesting, and more aligned with the life you are building.

This conversation explores Michael’s path from running businesses to working across AI, systems thinking, and global communities. Along the way, he shares how he approaches uncertainty, how he decides what to focus on, and why surrender is a skill worth developing.

This is a conversation about thinking clearly, following curiosity, and building a life that evolves with you.

This episode explores:

• Earning bigger problems and changing your relationship to them
• Systems thinking and identifying real constraints in business
• Digital nomading and building a life across different environments
• Learning and applying AI in a practical way
• Surrender as a skill in uncertain and fast-moving contexts
• Curiosity, intuition, and choosing what to work on next
• Community, connection, and creating meaningful environments

Guest links:

• Michael Skinner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/equanimas and https://www.equanimas.com/
• Recommended book: The Surrender Experiment by Michael A Singer

Chapters:

02:10 Michael’s early work and path into business
06:45 Earning bigger problems and what it means in practice
11:20 Systems thinking and finding the real bottleneck
16:05 Moving into AI and learning new domains quickly
21:40 Digital nomading and living across environments
27:15 Slowing down, novelty, and appreciating place
32:10 Surrender as a skill in uncertainty
37:25 Decision-making, curiosity, and following signals
42:50 Community, connection, and building meaningful spaces
48:30 Reflections on growth, work, and what matters next
52:10 Closing reflections

Explore further:

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Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
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About Natural Genius

The Natural Genius podcast explores how people discover and express their natural strengths, instincts, and contributions.

Through conversations with leaders, thinkers, builders, and practitioners across many fields, the podcast explores the signals that guide meaningful work and the choices that shape a life.

More at https://naturalgenius.com.au

Credits

Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Violet Town, Peregian Beach and Network School, 7 & 14 February, 2026

Produced at the Violet Town and Peregian Beach offices, 7 February – 21 March, 2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast. We're here to help you tap into your natural genius. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

I'm smiling as I think of Michael. He has a sparkle in his eyes when he smiles. He is a fascinating soul and a deep big-hearted person. Wicked smart in terms of business development and getting things done. I'm very excited to hear what we learn. Enjoy this conversation with Michael.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Amazing Michael Skinner. Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yay! Oh my god, great.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

So you are one of my very dear network school friends that um having met last year, which just feels both like it's gone in a moment and it uh was a while ago. But we were very lucky to be uh in that amazing place called Network School. Uh tell me, you've got a lot of amazing things happening in life at the moment. What's your most enjoyable aspect of life right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Most enjoyable aspect of life. I would say probably being uh in a space where I can not only just create things like on the fly that come to mind and tinker and experiment, but also uh more importantly, probably is the fact of having a lot of other smart, talented, cool people around me all the time. And because the new people that are coming in all the time, you know, they're just that that that's always changing. And yeah, it's it's really nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

And for context, you've signed on to Bay at Network School for uh is it another few months, or is it another 12 months, or is it just ongoing each month that you're gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I'm playing it by year. I have my name on a paper that says I'm committed to a certain time period, but yeah, it's it's developing, it's in it's a developing process, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

And to even more context, you've been a digital nomad, would you say, for quite a number of years now, Michael?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah, a few years, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

And uh what do you love about that lifestyle? Obviously, you've got a base now at Network School. What if what have you loved in the last few years different to being in one location?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

There's a high sense of novelty that's always present, very stimulating and exciting, keeping things new and fresh. Um remember a couple years ago when I first uh visited Asia, I went to about 14 countries in in the year, which it's kind of it's kind of relative to to other nomads, you know, depending on how uh fast they travel. But for me, it was it was pretty pretty intense. And so since then I've been trying to get more of a uh some people call it slow matting. Yes. Get more of a sense of the area I'm visiting by taking a little bit slower and not hopping around so much. It gives me a bit more appreciation for the space that I'm in at any given moment.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

Yeah. How do you decide to go where you want to go next? I guess from network school, it's more about shorter stays and uh maybe around the end of the year or certain dates in the year in the calendar, you might want to be in certain locations outside of a base.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, I I think uh in the sense from living here at network school, it's kind of taking a look around at the probably one of two options, like where have I not been? That still seems interesting to go to. Um, and the other is like what's a good reason you know to go somewhere. So like seeing friends in Australia could be a great reason to travel, even though I've been to Australia before, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Um, but then you know there's lots you need to come and see.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, yeah, of course. Um, I'm also you know, Anchor Watt is uh right next door, and that's something that's like, oh, that's really interesting. I definitely need to go see that. But I'm not in any rush, right? I don't think it's going anywhere. Could be wrong, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

And the pleasure of network school is that you can make plans and then pick up some friends to come with you along the way, hey.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

That tends to be an option, yeah. And also, too, it's like even if you don't know where to go, someone else is probably going somewhere and you can tag along with their trip.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

Oh, I love that. Is that different to other places that you've based yourself at, Michael, or is it similar?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I'd say it's similar. Yeah. Uh when you're in my experience, when you're nomading, you meet friends along the way and they're going all sorts of different directions. So the optionality is always there, and you get to decide. It depends on how you travel, I suppose. Is there's some people I've met that they've got their whole 12 months trip planned out, um, but other people, you know, they kind of go with the flow. I'm more of the latter. So I can't.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

You know, just kind of decide on the fly and you know, leave leave room for the mystery to surprise me.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Well, and for serendipity to find you. And tell me about if we roll through your beautiful life so far, tell me about any role models or people that have helped you on your way or great memories that you've got that you can I know you're good at telling stories. Tell me a story or two or three.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

There's a few that come up. Um so okay, there there's one uh there there's one in particular uh the guy I met in Mexico, actually in uh Sayolita.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

Say Alita, welcome to the conversation. Have you have you been there? No, I've not no, I'm just saying it because it's another new word. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Um yeah, so I was um I needed a vacation to say the least, and uh decided to uh go to Saint Ulita. Uh had a friend join me for the first week or two, and um, you know, we were we were kind of uh just like surfing and like doing yoga and just like kind of really taking an easy and creating you know some space to do whatever comes up uh day to day. Uh and one of the yoga teachers that I met in that process um was became very inspiring for me. Uh his his story was uh he was like he was a he was wearing a suit. He was a suit man in another uh um state in Mexico, and he kind of escaped the professional business life. His whole family was like, you know, very proper and formal, and he escaped to pursue yoga. And so he, you know, he loved it so much. He was also very much into like music and sound healing and um you know, and a lot of weird stuff, like uh, for example, um like a like a Nordic uh uh like ritual ceremony where he had to like you know do some weird stuff. Um so I met him and he was kind of this uh breath of fresh air, both in the sense that it was it felt like a mirror for me, where he had taken steps to leave something behind that he was new, familiar with, was comfortable with to pursue like what he was really passionate about, uh, which was like the sound healing and the and the yoga stuff. And um, you know, he was just trying to make it, all right. So it was in that sense, it was a mirror for me, but but also too, it was something like seeing the way that he had the uh the word that came up was like a like vigor, like but like a vitality in his in his presence that was um I hadn't experienced before. And it was magnetizing, right? It like drew me to him. Uh and I remember he was, you know, he was the first person that had done a animal flow yoga class that I attended. I was like, this is super weird, but like I like it. Um and so yeah, I meant I met him and you know, we would hang out and we developed a pretty close friendship there over the over the next few weeks um while I was in Salida. And um we we also ended up uh you know uh meeting some shamans and hanging out with them. We went to uh uh Tamascal together, which is like a you know, uh you know what those are, like the hot uh like a sauna, hot I forgot what they're called. Um but um yeah, I I think so he became kind of this um I wouldn't call it a mentor, but almost a role model. It was like he was my uh someone I looked up to without him knowing that I was looking up to him as a source of inspiration, of like um I I guess being being true to yourself and being authentic about um you know what's it what's enjoyable to you and what you know what you really want to pursue, and like not kind of discounting all the outside noise that tells you what you should be doing. Um and there was a lot of you know, through that relationship, there was a lot of uh changes and in thinking and and uh and heart set and emotional stature. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

And I still talk to them to this day. We check in every once in a while.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

So really, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, that was back in uh I think that was 2020, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

2020, so five or six years ago. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

I think it's amazing to have those people that come into your life that draw you forward into your future.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

You might not know it at the time too. I didn't pay attention.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

No. And those Yeah, you've described I knew you would, great at telling stories. You described it so well that he may not have known it. And uh yeah, you reminded me of a moment when I was finishing up at a corporate job and the HR person was saying, So who were your role models here? And I I was terrible at my poker face, and I was like, Oh, I like this bit of that person and that button, but really I just I was missing that role model that could help me to uh like a holistic human role model that could show me the way forward, and down the track I realized it was other values or other lenses that I was holding higher than um those around me at the time in that corporate job. And yeah, we're lucky to have those people around us, I think, to be able to pull us through. Any other stories that that came to mind? Any other sweet memories? Thank you, by the way. I love hearing a good story.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah, there's there's one that gets a bit um perhaps esoteric um from my time in in Ecuador, uh, and also oddly related to the T Mescal style setting. Maybe there's something to this uh extreme heat situation that really brings about life changes. I don't know. Um but I was at this retreat center for a couple weeks, and um this this gal from California had again left left her life after she had studied and made businesses and stuff to go start a retreat center in um in the mountains of Ecuador. And she was, you know, she was working with some shamans, she was you know hosting these retreats and helping people individually. She was doing some coaching as well, I think more informally. Um but uh we ended up one of the one of the nights we did kind of like a they call it like an ancestral uh journey or or something to that effect where you go in, you have a few different rounds of heat exposure and and kind of exhaustion. We had been fasting all day, and you know, so we walk into this tent, it was like a uh bamboo kind of sticks, and they were double layered with uh alpaca wool, so it was like super well insulated, and you know, and it's like this little like dome of I don't know, it couldn't have been more than well, there were a few few square meters. Uh and there was like 25 of us in there with these hot stones, and uh we were grinding through all the uh the pain, of course, and and um you know lots of lots of agony, lots of um suffering over the I think we were in there, I don't know, maybe four hours or or five hours or so. And um when we got out, you felt like a new person, right? You're you're kind of shaking out. Not uh not everybody made it the full time, but uh most people did. And and uh when we got out, we were all hanging out and uh just talking casually, like kind of trying to share what came up for us and um what we learned and things like that. I ended up talking to um this leader, and she uh she said something to me that I didn't I didn't really get at the time, um which was well, she said a couple things, but you know, the the one was that um uh you need to leave the world alone. Um and me being kind of like this young 20-something ambitious and all excited about wanting to change the world and do good, I was like baffled. I was like, what? What are you talking about? How is how are things supposed to get better if if we're leaving the world alone? Aren't we supposed to you know change things and and optimize? And and she said it like so gently and like full of wisdom that I was just like taken aback, right? I was like, who are you? Like I thought I liked you, and um, so it very it very much challenged me in a way that I wasn't expecting. Um and uh and then all these years later, I you know, I kind of you know, I constantly come back to different things that she has said that were in that ballpark of like um I wasn't ready for for the words or for the wisdom. Um and then it just kind of has stuck in like a seed that's grown and nurtured itself uh over time. And then I, you know, I get something like that, uh, and I get where she was coming from and why she was saying it. It's might be like uh like a lack of maturity at that time, perhaps, um, or a different level of consciousness. Um and uh yeah, it was it was it's kind of like coming into something profound that you don't yet know is profound, and then one day you just kind of get hit with a like you run into a brick wall, you're like, Oh, I get it.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah, oh gosh, it it reminds me of two things, like indigenous wisdom that is gate is sort of uh behind certain certain wisdom is behind certain boundaries, and other wisdom cultures where you don't learn something until you're ready, or when the student's ready, the teacher arrives. All of those sorts of things just came to mind as you were saying it. So, what does that mean to you now in terms of her words meaning different things at different times? What are what do her words mean now about the world? And like you're a person that can do a lot of a lot of good and create stuff and get things going on. So what is yeah, what do her words mean now to you?

SPEAKER_00 18:44

So I I think a couple things uh have come up and uh have been interesting for me to like paraphrase and contextualize it in in my life today. But uh one way is to just like very simply don't focus on what you can't control, right? And you can't change the world, right? You you can change a part of the world and you can change you know a certain uh dimension of the world, but like the world is just kind of this like big, globby uh amoeba of a concept in your mind that you can't really wrap your head around because it's so um unfathomable. So it's like not really, it's just like it's not tangible enough to actually do something with. Um another way is uh kind of like uh thinking globally and acting locally. That's very uh very much a part of like today's uh MO of like um I guess startups in in a way, um, although maybe in the in the tech sector, um local can be extended to like certain digital environments um versus like physical environments. But uh yeah, there's a there's a couple instances like that where um that wisdom is kind of just like filtered through and it's like oh yeah, yeah, just focus on the problem at a time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

And it's a nice lead-in to give a bit more context around your background being in in business growth. And how did what's your criteria? How do you decide to work on what you work on next, Michael? Especially with broad skills around sales, business development, efficiency of systems and productivity. You could work in so many different areas of a startup or a business. So yeah, how do you choose and also being in the one of the AI centers of the world right now and learning being at the forefront of technology? And actually, as you were talking before, it reminded me about those lovely serendipitous moments of bumping into people in the lift or people over breakfast or people at on the way to fitness or in the gym to talk about the latest thing that was happening in AI that day or in that moment. Yeah, how do you how do you choose what to work on?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

I think it's a it's a personal journey, and it probably will depend on how you structure your your life and decision making. So it's probably different for for everyone. Uh one that's worked particularly well for me is the idea of like earning bigger problems, bigger and better problems, because at some point you realize you're not going to have a life without problems. And so you change your relationship with the nature of problems and you start to enjoy the solving of the problems and just know that the next one's coming. So then it's not about not having problems, it's about how can I work on bigger and better problems, more interesting problems. Um, and you know, perhaps when people Like Elon, like what are the hardest problems to solve, right? Um, and so uh that's one way I think about it, and and actually to your point about uh learning in progressive steps. Like I recently uh picked up Ashtanga yoga, um, and I was in Ali. I went to a uh like a teacher there, and it was my first time doing uh like a MyStore Mysore style class. You you know how those work?

SPEAKER_03 22:32

Uh I used to do Ashtanga vinyasa, but um I'm not too sure if that was Mysore uh as its origin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

So so generally speaking, it's instead of like having the instructor at the front of the class who's guiding everyone through a through a flow, uh, there's an instructor walking around helping each person individually on the part that of the practice that they're working on. And you just show up and you start wherever you're at and you work from there. And wow, you you have support along the way. Um, but especially when you're first starting, like I was, you don't learn everything up front. You don't learn it all at once, you have to earn your way up through the entire sequence. And the way you do that is by understanding or getting good at the things that you do know. And so I think you know, there's um there's an entire you know, sequence of poses, takes about maybe 90 minutes or so. And uh, you know, my first day I was I got like three or four poses, and she's just like, do this. So I did three, four poses for like an hour and a half, and then uh next day I got a couple more, and then you know, I got a couple more after that, and I was building up on it. Um, and so it was interesting to kind of see that approach because that's kind of uh a parallel to like let's say in business, for example, um, you know, you don't have to worry about uh cash flow management until you got cash coming in. You know, it's uh if you are um trying to um figure out product market fit, um, that's a different problem to solve than someone who who has figured that out and who has uh you know raised funds to to scale. And yeah, I think there's there's an there's like an excitement in knowing that you're not necessarily choosing the problems, the problems are choosing you, and you're just showing up to meet them where they're at, to go to the next level.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

If something in this conversation lit you up, there's a signal in that. If you want help tuning your own signal into a clear next move, start with a three-minute signal check-in at naturalgenius.com.au. And if you want focused support, book a signal lab and we'll work through it together. Now back to the natural genius. Michael, when we were talking earlier, you were saying, I loved what you were saying about taking on each new challenge that you get, and you finish that, it's sort of like a game, isn't it? Like a a um the bigger the challenge, then you win at that, and then you can take on bigger challenges. And you said it so eloquently. So tell me more about what you're loving at the moment and what you're enjoying in that space because you were talking about learning Claude and getting more tech savvy, and I just think that combined with your amazing abilities to do business efficiency and growth is going to be a pretty powerful combination. Look out.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yeah, yeah. So the general idea is that you earn bigger problems, and it helps for me to serve as a filter for focus and make sure that you are focusing on the right things. So if, for example, your company doesn't have an email list or significant following, you don't really need to worry about email marketing and running a bunch of A B split tests. Um, and so you can kind of put that aside for now. And once you have whatever 5,000, 10,000, whatever people on your email list, then you start running split tests and figure out what kind of language works and what converts uh an email. Um, and so yeah, kind of the problems I'm earning now in terms of the AI space and learning more about technology, it started. I kind of had to backtrack a little bit because I started uh vibe coding in maybe a year ago. I uh opened up Replit for the first time. And um, you know, tools like uh uh like Lovable and like Rourke, uh they're they're uh almost like gateway drugs. I kind of look at it like where you know you take you take one and then it opens up a whole new world. You're like, what is this? Holy cow, what can I do with all this stuff? Yeah. Um and so you get into it and you start realizing how vast this uh universe is and how all the possibilities exist, and then you're chasing every little idea, going down every little rabbit hole, and then comes the question of focus. Okay, well, what do I want to focus on? Well, which problems are worth solving right now, and which ones can I put aside for for later? And so where I'm at now is I guess I had decided to put aside the more technical jargon and understanding what is actually in the black box, what's under the hood that makes these things work the way they do. Because when I first started, I didn't really need to know all that stuff, and I just had to type some prompts, and English is the new programming language. I didn't really have to know how code worked, but then I realized after doing a few projects that that approach only gets you 80% of the way to your goal, it doesn't get you all the way there, and so it's good for getting your hands dirty and getting familiar with how to use these uh tools, but it doesn't really get you to a spot where you're you know proud of what you're what you have as a finished product, and so now I've I've done that long enough, and now I'm starting to backtrack into okay, well, how do these things work and how do I make better prompts? And why is it that the way I arrange a sentence in this particular way works better than this other way?

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Well done.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So I'm backing into all the technical stuff now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Network school is such a great place for that because I feel like there's so many people that can explain it in all different ways. And I know that you're a bridge as well in many of the environments that you're in, Michael, because you can translate, you can help people, you can be the bridge for people to go from non-technical to technical. So this is getting more and more exciting, this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

It's funny because I I I used that same word recently because we attended somebody hosted like an install cloud install party. I don't know if we were talking about this on the last last segment, but uh it was like um, you know, a bunch of people showed up because everybody was super excited. They're like, Yeah, let's do it, let's do it. And then the first the very first slide was like, Okay, go to your terminal, run this command, and like you're gonna have cloud. It's very easy. And everybody's like, What's a terminal? How do I how do I open this up? And then it was like so it made me realize like there does need to be a bridge between people that do, you know, maybe a little bit further along on the technical side, and the people that don't even know what a terminal is or how to run a command or what that even means to run a command in the terminal. Um and yeah, that's that's kind of the sweet spot I'm in now is uh trying to develop the vocabulary and the understanding that that connects those two worlds.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Oh, it's amazing. It it uh as you enter into more and more to do with AI agents and behind the scenes as you describe it, it you don't know what you don't know. And you've got to jump in to wade through and find out, like learn some, and then it's a bit similar to when I used to do this at the very early stages of social media. You you had to learn a bit and then you could actually start to see the landscape. Kind of you could uh things unfold, don't they, as you get as you learn more. So yeah, thanks for explaining that. Um, so I want to also I I do love this excitement that you've got around uh the work or the studies that you're doing at the moment. Give us a bit of background as well, in terms of what you're proud of around the different businesses you've worked in, and the uh I feel like you're a jack of all trades that can bring in efficiency in systems, build systems, create uh lists, customer, find customers. Uh, you just talked about email marketing before, but tell me a little bit about your sweet spot of the many things that you can do in business.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Sure. Yeah, the the jack of all trade things I think is a is a natural fit for me. Uh, I do lean into more of a generalist mindset, and uh it kind of first occurred to me when I was uh basically running like a like a restaurant, it was a franchise restaurant in the US, and uh I was doing like a management internship kind of uh training on the job training thing. And it they had me learning everything from how the POS works to what the um supply chain is, managing vendors, you know, running payroll and scheduling and stuff. And what occurred to me was like I was in the dish pit one day because we were slammed and they were overloaded. And I was sitting there and I'm scrubbing dishes and I'm like, it kind of hit me like a brick wall, like, oh, this is what a manager does, right? They pop in wherever they're needed and they fill the gaps and they plug the holes as the business needs them. And that kind of set a foundation for me as I went to uh into other businesses to work and help them and eventually start my own businesses to really find where is the gap and how do you close the gap in a way that helps move the whole system forward. Um, and it's not just like you know, plugging uh plugging a hole at the at the bottom of the boat, it's like you're you can do that to start, but the more you do that, the more you think about how to redesign the entire boat so that you don't get holes in the future. Um and so I think that's kind of uh as as a generalist kind of seeing from different angles where I excel is coming in to look at things in a new light and look at it from a systems level where I can take the various pieces of the business and see uh not not only what like the strengths are and where where you can move the needle pretty quickly, like where are the weaknesses that are really dragging down, where are the bottlenecks um weakest link? Because you can really be only as strong as like your uh your biggest problem, right? If you if you don't solve the problems, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

You've explained that so beautifully. So tell me where does it come from? Where do you think, like, how do you do you get surprised by that? Like where you go, I know where the weakest link is, or my gut just can tell me, or I've had a bit of time with this business. There's 10 things, but I know that those top two are the most important. Like, do you have any idea where that comes from?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

I'd say curiosity is the biggest one. Uh being curious and asking questions and kind of uh kind of being like a bloodhound sniffing out, you know, uh a trail of some some prize, right? Like where is where is this coming from, right? You get to one one stop, you uh you smell something that's uh off or not right, but that's not really the the thing. And so you keep sniffing around, you're like, uh, where is the real where's the real thing here? And eventually, yeah, I think that's what naturally moves me through the business in any business, right? It's um one thing I found having worked with a lot of businesses is owners, business owners and and entrepreneurs, um, oftentimes they'll think they have a problem and they'll articulate the problem, but it might just be a symptom. And so I feel like it's kind of my job in those situations to widen the lens to where we don't just look at the system, but we look a little bit deeper at the root of the problem and sniff it out.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Oh, dude, lucky to have you. That is such a skill or a combination of skills. But that's it's marvelous to um uh to hear you talk about that. I I think that uh scale-ups and startups, it's so fun to be in them uh as things grow, and oftentimes it does bring in generalists, people that can roll their sleeves up and fill gaps and be the dish in the dishy area when you need to be. And uh yeah, that's just uh yeah, you've thrilled me. I feel like um the work that you do around AI complementing the work you do now. Uh I'm so curious as to what apps you might build or what uh what your replet um is looking like these days because that possibly, I don't know, possibly there's ideas that you've had that you might have just had a bit of a play with and then uh moved on to other things that have been it maybe either easier to execute or um uh more immediate needs from people. That's awesome. When you were talking before, it partly also reminded me of uh as a manager you were describing, and it reminded me when we were together in network school, you you generously just started up these full moon parties, and there was such a great way of new people coming in to instantly feel like part of the family. And I remember sitting on the lawn out the front of the hotel uh in the night, and there was, I don't know, incense and candles and other bits and pieces, and uh there was such a lot of people to the point where the circle needed to, it was sort of like a circle, and then it had a little bit of a blob, and then it needed to be turned into a real circle because people kept turning up, and then there was another time when it was raining a lot, and we were under the awning next to the pool. And so, with those as context, uh with the number of people that have turned up, because I guess it would have been 40 or something at different times. Tell me what drove you to create those, and I imagine being in plenty of digital communities in the past, uh, you've done it before. What drives you to build community and to do it so in such a welcoming way?

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Well, I think it's probably linked to the same thing uh as the business, right? Is coming into a space and feeling it out and uh asking, you know, what's what's missing here or where's you know where's an opportunity to um bolster the system to make the whole thing stronger. And I think in any community that I've been a part of, you need rituals, you need uh spaces, you need uh energetic containers for people to feel safe and to just be who they are without needing to be measured up, without needing to be someone. And uh Ram Das uh, you're familiar with Ram Das. Yeah he lived uh a life of trying to become nobody. He had lived a life of being somebody and then lived the rest of his life trying to become nobody, and it's kind of with that that that inspired me to continues to inspire me to feel around the different ways in which we can feel safe to do that. Like, what would it feel like to just sit with a group of strangers and not have to have any objective to achieve just to be heard in the moment? How are you feeling? What are you thinking? What's going on in your life? And like there doesn't have to be a right answer, it's just whatever's coming up, that's it, and just let it be. And there wasn't that space when I got here, and so I wanted to I wanted to bring that space um up to to be available to people. And yeah, like you said, there was uh a few different times where I was actually surprised myself. And I even remember joking, uh, I think I forgot who said it, but it's like somebody said, You're kind of a closet woo. It's like it's like I didn't know. Yeah, I didn't know you were so into this kind of stuff. And I was like, that's the first time I heard that, but it feels pretty accurate, you know. Um and it's funny because in a sense it is true. Um, but I think part of it is, you know, the same thing. Like, is this a safe space to feel okay talking about these things and being, you know, being uh more or less like spiritual in however way you define it? Like, is it okay being spiritual in a world full of people that are working on crypto and and tech and you know startups? Like, I don't know. It's kind of weird. I don't know, but you know, you lean into it.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Always be experimenting.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a big experiment. Um, and I think another part, um yeah, and another part to that that I noticed is um that there's um like a uh you know when you have a I don't know, intuition maybe is the right word, but it's like you have this pulling, you have this feel towards uh this feeling to uh to do something or to uh it's like a gravity, the center of gravity is pulling you towards it, and like you can't deny that for too long. It just it becomes like this pressurized um like container that just will explode at some point, it'll leak out or something will happen if you don't find a way to to go towards that thing that you're feeling. Um so I think that's kind of that was kind of the feeling as well as not having if you go too long, if that's part of who you are and what you need, then you go too long without it, is you know, you're bound to you know find it.

SPEAKER_03 42:57

Yes, same you uh speak my language. Uh I remember um studying quite by chance Reiki, uh as you know, at the end of the 90s, and I was working, I was a straight-laced consultant working at KPMG, full suit coat on and you know, scarf and lipstick and all the makeup. And this lovely gent who I didn't really know that well, but he in this corporate office on Collins Street in Melbourne was putting on a Reiki workshop that uh that weekend, and he said, Oh Sam, do you want to come to this Reiki workshop? I had no idea what it was about. Uh, long story short, I've been doing energy hands on healing for 20 something years, mainly for friends and family. And you and beautiful Talissa, your partner, um, experienced that when we're at network school. And as you were talking just then, it reminded me this is a multidimensional human, and you're so clever at your Analogies. So being able to sort of say that you take on one challenge and then you learn another one, I feel like in the dimensionality of me as a person, I've grown into different aspects. And so spirituality or energy healing or uh other aspects of that, it it is just filling out another instinct or another part of who Sam Bell is. So uh I love hearing that. I like I mean, network school was fantastic for the number of people that had that multi-dimensionality and they were open to things, and uh I mean that's again what this podcast is about being a happy, fulfilled human, and uh and the more we're in flow or trusting our instincts and taking on challenges and researching what we like to research? Uh it's been such a pleasure. I feel like we've opened plenty of topics, Michael, and I it feels like we've got a part B in us, so maybe that will come in the future. But thank you so much for your time across two different moments. Um, is there anything else that you would like to pass on? Any other great tips around uh things that work in business or life or how to run a full moon ceremony? Um how to make good coffee.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Oh yeah, I could um I could definitely say some stuff about that. Uh one one thing that's been recent, uh recent in the in my experience here is being okay with not just the unknown, but the unknown unknowns. So the things that you will never know that you won't know. And I don't know if that's too too meta, but um, you know, anybody who's listening to this probably is in some sort of mindset of personal development and spiritual development, and um trying to grow in in some way, and and knowing that, you mean you're bound to be okay and get more familiar with the unknown. Uh, and that's okay because it's like you're going to discover these things. And I find that the more you discover, the more you realize you don't know, which is probably not news. Um, it's not too big of news, but it's been a re reoccurring theme lately, um, where it's very humbling, especially with how fast things are changing and you know the the pace of uh evolution that that we're in right now, it can kind of sometimes feel a little bit scary, even like for me, like sometimes I get anxious. Like, how do you keep up with all this? How do you stay relevant? How do you uh you know pick a lane or make any decisions when you know that things are changing so fast? And um just accepting that you're not gonna be able to do all of that all the time, and letting it be okay to leave things alone, leave some of the unknowns alone. You don't have to discover it all, you don't have to do it all, um, and just kind of be okay with that. That's that's been something I'm grappling with.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Um my gosh, it's so lovely that you share that. And how do you I think you've just described how you sit with that? I want to just ask, I want tell me a bit more because I feel like as generalists and systems thinkers and uh whole fillers, you and I are similar. I wonder sometimes I you and I can sit with anxiety because we can turn up to places and go, what what needs to be fixed and the um hound-like behaviour to find the uh things that need to be fixed. And so that to me, it does sit me in anxiety, like moments of anxiety a bit. And I've been a consultant for long enough to just know that I need to just ride that, and it's just part of the landscape. So with AI, it's similar as well, or with learning any new tech, you're sort of going into these lands. I remember when I tweeted for the first time, and it was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. Um, and I had it again recently with um oh, what is it, Jack Dorsey's one of his apps that he's working on, but anyway, yeah, and I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing again, and I'm like, oh gosh, this um this feels familiar to I don't know, 2009 or something with Twitter, but um uh yeah, tell me more about sitting with that anxiety, like how do you because the two of us keep on learning more and more and more and more, and more and more business uh areas and more nuance around technology. So uh does that I don't really know what my question is. I think it's like does it sit comfortably with you? Do you get honor yourself that that humility that's coming, that you are still you've got a massive body of work that you already have done and you feel confident and comfortable in yourself that that's uh your backdrop, and then there's always going to be more stuff to learn.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, the the top level skill I think is probably underrated, but will become increasingly important is surrender.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

You don't often think about that as a wise, Mark. Surrender.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

We might want to change this to the start of the podcast episode. This is old people called yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

But the more I think about it and the more I'm sitting with that anxiety, the the more I'm kind of going long on the idea of surrender as a strategy. And you'll either choose to develop that skill consciously and with intention, or you're gonna be forced into it because this is gonna be the first time these coming years that we as a species, humans, and uh we're not gonna be the most intelligent, most all powerful things walking the planet. And I don't think we know how to deal with that. And we don't have to know, you know, we're gonna we're just we're all into it, we're all in it together. That's the unknown unknowns I'm talking about. But if we surrender to the experience, to the idea and kind of hold space for for what's evolving, what's emerging from our creations, because we are we are playing a part in this after all. Um I think we'll have a lot better way of dealing with it, of of seeing it through.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yes, surrender and uh be ready to move with new information and new connections. And in that surrendering, it also reminded me of uh such a lovely subtopic through this whole conversation has been about giving people a safe space and a sense of belonging. And as you say, we're all in it together, we all play our unique part.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

Yeah, and if there's if I could give one recommendation of a book that might help uh push push people in this direction, it's called the Surrender Experiment. I think you've you've read it, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:13

Yeah, I have, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, same guy who wrote the the untethered soul, Michael Singer. Um it's a great book, really it's kind of like an autobiography mixed with like you know, business wisdom. So really good book to read if if you want to develop that as a strategy.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Yeah, I think it's a great one to um have people uh test their openness as well, sort of just sort of keep being reminded to stay open and roll with things. I I can't remember if I said this to you. I've certainly said it to a lot of people lately because I've quite loved it. My dear friend Eddie and I were riffing the other day, and he was talking about we came up with this topic, micro agility. And I think that you would be really good at this. It's like as you get feedback from agents or you build different systems, it's like how do you actually start to have these micro through you look at a prompt and then you see a slightly different tangent to what you might have expected. So it's like surrendering and micro agility might be future traits that um the micro agility has a surrender in it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah, like a it's a fluidity, I think, is what comes to mind for me.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

Thank you. Yeah, well done. Oh, well, another fantastic moment in time. I love seeing your smile. Oh, I'm shooting goals. Here we are. Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenious.com.au. Thanks so much.