#27 - Christian Duell: Creativity, Collective Wisdom, and Designing Better Systems for Complex Challenges

How do you access the intelligence already present within a group?

In this episode of the Natural Genius podcast, Sam Bell speaks with Christian Duell, educator, facilitator, and founder of White Light Education, about creativity, co-design, and guiding people and organisations through complexity.

Christian’s work explores how individuals and groups think, create, and contribute together. His approach centres on the idea that creativity is available to everyone, and that with the right conditions, groups can access a deeper shared intelligence.

This conversation moves through Christian’s career transition from architecture into facilitation, education, and systems work. He reflects on following curiosity, stepping into new directions, and building a body of work that continues to evolve.

Together, they explore how to create environments where people can participate fully, contribute meaningfully, and work through complex challenges with clarity.

This episode explores:

• Creativity as something accessible and expressed in different ways
• Collective wisdom and how groups can think and create together
• Co-design and facilitation as ways of working with complexity
• Career transitions and evolving professional identity over time
• The role of curiosity, play, and experimentation in meaningful work
• Designing systems, cultures, and experiences that support contribution

Guest links:

• Christian Duell https://www.linkedin.com/in/duellchristian/
• Clean Break, Christian’s latest EP https://misterrascal.bandcamp.com/album/clean-break
• Bionic Chef, Eduardo Garcia’s Do Lectures talk: https://thedolectures.com/speakers/eduardo-garcia/
• Hamish Curry’s Natural Genius: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5BSx26FTvIBn0ASLTNrquQ
• Nick Jaffe’s Natural Genius: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbJ2kXPGZrE&t=9s 

Chapters:

02:18 Christian’s early career in architecture and the shift toward facilitation
06:42 Career transitions and following curiosity into new directions
11:05 Creativity and how it shows up in different forms
15:27 Collective wisdom and working with groups
20:14 Co-design in practice and navigating complexity
25:36 Culture, leadership, and enabling contribution
30:22 Play, curiosity, and learning through experience
34:48 Designing systems and environments for better outcomes
39:12 Reflections on meaningful work and evolving a body of work
42:05 Closing thoughts

Explore further:

Book a Lab: https://naturalgenius.com.au
Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
Subscribe to hear future episodes

About Natural Genius

The Natural Genius podcast explores how people discover and express their natural strengths, instincts, and contribution.

Through conversations with leaders, thinkers, builders, and practitioners across many fields, the podcast explores the signals that guide meaningful work and the choices that shape a life.

More at https://naturalgenius.com.au

Credits:

Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Violet Town and the Gold Coast, 29 January, 2026
Produced at the Violet Town, Peregian Beach and Benalla offices, 29 January - 27 March, 2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast. We're here to help you tap into your natural genius. Let's go. Hamish Curry introduced me to Christian, who I'm looking forward to meeting. He sounds like a fabulous collaborator. In our short correspondence so far, he's had a lightness of being and a playfulness and a curiosity that is lovely to be around. Hamish introduced me to Christian as the person that helped to motivate him to organise his next adventure walking around Milford Sound with his brother in New Zealand. It sounds like Christian's playfulness and excitement of life is something that is wonderful to be around and obviously motivating. I'm very much looking forward to him. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Christian, welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Thank you, Sam. What an interesting concept. I am curious, excited, nervous, very open. Who knows where this is going to go? But it feels great to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

And as a as an introduction, when I was thinking about you and this conversation yesterday, this beautiful water bird flew overhead. It's nice to bring the outside into a conversation like this.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

When I look at your background and your portfolio career, as we seem to call them these days, you've been fortunate enough or driven enough to have different chapters, and maybe it's a lot of curiosity that kind of that comes into it. I wonder what might compel you to have a slight non-conformity to the way that you uh carry yourself with work or the different chapters, or and even talking into what you're experiencing at the moment, what uh what drives you or how you come to be doing what you're doing next?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And I I love that that was driving your curiosity. I I definitely have never considered myself a rebel or a non-conformist. And what as I, you know, I'm 44, so I'm very much embracing this middle-aged period of my life where I'm comfortable enough with who I am. Things that I can change, and I'm accepting the things that I can't change about myself. And one of those things is that compulsion or intuition, maybe I don't know the right way to describe this, drives what I do. So passion, when it's there, fuels what I do, and when it's not there, it compels me to change course. That's been the case throughout my career. And I think as a young person, I learned this. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this, where I spent time doing things and being things, being things that weren't authentic. And I was able to do that for a while, but I paid for price and there were tipping points, you know, there were there were moments, particularly for me when I was a young architect. So this is late 2009, early 2010, working for the world's biggest design firm, Acomp, don't mind naming them. And the GFC had hit our office, and 30% of our office was made redundant overnight. I was also in a relationship that broke up. My grandfather had passed away, and suddenly, like a bale was taken away from my eyes, and I could see that this wasn't consistent with who I was working for this multinational corporation. And I quit and I traveled, and that was scary and courageous, and I opened myself up to serendipity. I spent a lot of time. I spent about four months traveling around the world, a volcano erupted in Iceland. I felt my way into my next career move, which was taking design from architecture and moving into design thinking. It's been my first career pivot. And um those transitions, you know, uh have been easier when I was single and I was young. Now I'm a dad, I've got two daughters, I'm going through one of those at the moment. Uh compulsion to change what I'm doing. It's a lot harder because I have dependence and um yeah, I'm in the mud, I guess, which is fair to say, but not in a rebellious way, I guess. Put it that way, Sam. It's not intentional, it's it's almost like change happens twice. It happens unconsciously and then it happens consciously and intentionally for me, at least.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Yeah, I I must admit, to the the word or the sort of idea of non-conformity, it sort of surprised me the question to be asking you first. And you and I are similar beings in that uh when the energy dissipates. Well, actually, I shouldn't put words into your mouth, but I know that for me in my career when the energy has dissipated, and often it's been about knowledge, uh, when I'm not learning, when I don't feel like I'm learning enough, then it's hard to stay around. Um, and maybe that's part of the non-conformity that then uh then I've moved and uh uh many people might stay and sort of dig deep and keep going. Um, but I've been very fortunate that that drive has um led to amazing experiences, which is how you and I come to know each other today. So you described to me that you're on a knowledge, work, career break slash sabbatical and all of power to you, how exciting. Do you have any uh goals for that, or do you have any hopes or aspirations around this time that you're going through at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Well, would you like to unpack how I've come to that point a little bit? Because it doesn't feel I'll tell you right now, it doesn't feel exciting yet. It doesn't feel necessarily empowering. It's felt is that right? It's felt very scary for me to say that. You're the second person actually I've used those words with this week. And um I I spoke to somebody else in my professional circles on on Monday using those words, and it was just like you whisper it at first, and you're like, is that what I'm doing? Is that what I'm doing? So it's actually been uh over three years in the making. Um, and I've coached people, I'm I'm sure you do some form of coaching, or your all your clients, you're probably doing some coaching in in some way as well. And when you're guiding people through change, it's much easier when it's somebody else, but you can look back and often see the decision that you eventually make. The writing was on the wall, nine months, twelve months, eighteen months, relationships, jobs, financial decisions, all those things. Like I say, there's there's sort of two changes that happen. There's the one that happens unconsciously and the one that when we finally accept the choice that we're making. So about um, well, it was it's three years to the day. This is a bit of a sad story. So um it's strap in a little bit, but there is an empowering kind of side to it. Um about three years ago to the day, it was on Monday, it was the anniversary of um my best friend Matthew Schneider's passing. And that um died as a 39-year-old father of three at the height of his career. So a very successful town planner, but uh eventually became a thought leader on the Gold Coast where I live now, and had a huge part to play in the culture and the development of the Gold Coast. Uh huge professional, hardworking man, uh, very public, very active in um in his professional world. And uh for me, um, his diagnosis in the sort of nine months prior to his passing, uh, and the experience that I went through sharing that time with him and seeing I guess the role that his work played and the role that his identity as a professional played, and then what he was going to lose in terms of as a father of his kids. Now, this is this is my experience, because you know that you know I I'm not sharing any judgment about how he lived his life, but for me, something was changing within me where I started to see the value of what we do to who we are, and the roles that we take on, and the role of ego and success and status and and all of those things in my own work. So let's talk about myself because that's my experience. And so something changed for me when Matt went through his um decline and he passed away in January. Uh something something had changed for me professionally, where I've got young kids, so I I had a a daughter a couple of literally a month before Matt passed away. So a new life, uh, five-year-old daughter as well, and my priorities changed. And what was really interesting at the end of um 2023, so passed away at the start of 2023. Um, I had three of my longest-term um profitable, rewarding, successful clients um get in touch with me all around the same time to say that uh they wouldn't be renewing these year-on-year contracts that we've been running, despite the fact that these projects had been, you know, on all metrics year on year improving. Uh, I I take a lot of pride in my work. I have a lot of passion aligned with what I'm doing. And so that this was the kind of early signs of like something's shifting for me here. Now, it's taken me nearly three years to accept that. Um, but I've gone through a rapid, I guess, like lifestyle change where I have been in many ways like I hate this saying, but the sage on the stage, you know, um uh a so-called expert. Um, I have performed, you know, my role has been performative. I've been striving, I've been hustling, I've been trying to make money to provide for my family. And uh something has changed inside of me. Uh, we've moved house as well, we've changed our lifestyle. I've gone from being on on you know a big wage to on the minimum wage in the last 12 months, 18 months as well. So we've we've gone through a rapid, I guess, transformation. And on the other side of that now, is I'm starting to accept that I am not my job. I don't need success. My priorities supporting my daughters, and my world is a lot smaller at the moment. Um, there's no greater role for me than to provide a safe environment for my family to hold for them to discover themselves, to explore the world and develop the capacities to be thriving citizens. Like that's to me is is where my heart is at the moment. And yeah, this change has kind of uh taken me by surprise, but I'm accepting it now. And my wife, we've swapped jobs as well. My wife is now the the primary breadwinner, and uh I am being and not doing, I guess, as much.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

And learning how to breathe.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Towards the end of what you were just saying, that I was hearing, they're like learning how to Yeah, well, I mean, this has been this has been a grieving process, obviously, because um losing somebody close to us and it wasn't wasn't the simplest of relationships I have with Matt as well. And um grief has its own timeline. Uh, but there's also a grief and talking about the non-conformity aspects, um, of like being a professional male, white male, and I'm not gonna get any sympathy for this because I have far more compassion to the mums who put their careers on hold to raise a family as well. But feeling in society that I'm going against the grain so much in the last 12 months, being the dad that drops my daughter off at school, trying to organize play dates with other mums, parents not feeling safe with a man around their their kids, and me just feeling like what is my value in society if I'm not making money, you know, if not if I'm not having an impact, you know. It kind of peers that we have on LinkedIn where we're talking about do lectures and um you know, hub in Melbourne and this sort of period like of the early 2010s where it was all about impact and hockey stick growth. And you know, this is what I've grown up with in my pet professional pedigree as well. And so to kind of go against that, not not conform to that narrative of I should be hustling, I should be sacrificing the best years of my daughter's life. And I'm just not willing to do that now because I've seen, you know, firsthand what my mate's kids now miss out on. You know, I dropped my daughter from school on Monday and she needed me to be there while she cried, and I hugged her. And Matt's daughter goes to the same school now, and it just broke my heart to know that she doesn't have her dad to be there.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

I you can imagine there is so much in that, Christian. You've got so much to um so much to be proud of, and also so much that you just described in what you're dealing with or what you've been dealing with. And I think that there is definitely that masculine drive to protect and provide, and also that non-conformity, you reminded me of I've been an auntie for my a lot of my adult life, and a single auntie oftentimes, and uh running my own business and doing entrepreneurial things, and then being curious enough about crypto and AI. And last year I flew to Malaysia and lived on an island with a whole lot of somebody called it the Nerd Hotel. Uh, and I maybe that's mid-career because I've decided that I the way I pass away is in my 90s on skis on a heart having a heart attack. So I'm probably about mid-age now. Um, and that that uh feeling that you have, I'm so sorry to hear about people not feeling comfortable about having a man around their children, that just sort of breaks my heart a little bit. Um but that sort of feeling of not playing the usual role model or the usual person in society, I think that it it builds res it builds builds strength and character. It's like kind of helping you and I have even stronger backbone.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Absolutely, yeah. I I know I know this um intellectually that this period of time has been you know, I have a growth mindset and I really have my whole life I've been driven to learn and hungry to grow and and evolve and you know let go of what doesn't serve me. So I I get all that intellectually, and then a lot of just like spinning my wheels in the mud in in the letting go of of the identity. And I don't know if you've come across this concept, Sam, but um I was taught this principle, I guess you'd call it uh called the I am effect. And essentially um this is the I am statements that we say about ourselves that are beliefs. So the idea with this is that the I is the the observer. We've got a bit woo, woo-woo. It's not really woo-woo, it's you know, plenty of uh knowledge traditions talk about this, the observer, right? So there's the eternal self that is timeless and ageous and eternal, and it's it's consciousness, whatever you want to call it, and it's it's watching, uh, it's the witness to everything that's going on. And then the am is the parts of ourself and our behavior that we identify with. So it's a kind of a union between ego and spirit, if you want. And when those I am statements are true and empowering, they serve our growth. When they're negative and limiting, then they are self-sabotaging. And really, like that that principle at least has been at play for me where I've been able to, I guess, zoom out and see that I am not a facilitator, I am not even a father, I'm not even a partner, but I I am parenting, you know, all right. Uh yeah, uh how do I explain this so that it's uh there have been what resonated when you said you're like in Malaysia and the Nerd Island, and I've had some fantastic, like crazy traveling experiences, and uh I'm not doing that kind of stuff right now, you know. My life is really small, and I've I've come uh to some peace with that because I realize that the me that has been part of all those experiences, the me that was the travel has been the traveler, and the me that has is the father is the same me. So it's it's it's Christian. I'm Christian having a a dad experience at the moment. Yes, and I'm Christian having a uh low income experience at the moment, but yeah, you know, I'm just show I just show up in those environments and be and it's still authentic and it's still consistent. That's that's I guess the peaceful way to deal with change for me is just that um don't get too attached to it, you know, like it's it's all impermanent, it's all subject to change, yeah. And I'm gonna be okay whether I'm poor, or just be Christian being poor, I'll be Christian being wealthy, I'll be Christian being spontaneous in the traveler.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Facilitating or being an architect or being a dad or now the problem is of course when other people we need to latch on to something like so, Sam, what are you doing at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Or like what I I thought you were uh see, or I thought you were like when I'm in Brisbane, uh people say, You're still doing architecture, or you think you go back to architecture one day?

SPEAKER_04 19:41

And I was like, That's a while.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

It's been um 16 years since oh well since I've practiced, so maybe, but no, you know, and it's understandable because like the world is confusing, our brain likes order and sense and to put people in holes, so I get that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:03

Yeah, and Christian in our small bit of communication, which has got both of us feeling like we wished we'd known it. Well, it's definitely had me. Yes, that's definitely for longer. One of the things that has been completely joyful and has run through rung through our communication, both with Hamish introducing us and email since is your lightness of being, your ease, your playfulness, and uh your curiosity and openness. And I wonder it it had me think no wonder you've been successful and you'll be successful in the future because that lightness of being is so attractive because we're surrounded by so much fear and so many other things. But when somebody has that like, don't get me wrong, I can totally sense the weight of grief and the change, and you know, that's to be um uh oh god, sorry, usual word, protest. But um so I can definitely feel that with you. But the um I remember seeing a talk one time by an amazing, amazing chef who uh had had an amputation, amputated arm, and he talked about how after amputation you come back to the same baseline of your your sort of personality or how upbeat or or sort of downtrodden you might be in life. And he was definitely a glass half full upbeat kind of guy.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

And he said that's the kind of uh model around having amputation. And I think that if you um if you have that lightness. Of being people are attracted to it, especially in this time. So one of the many things that will help you through this change, I dare say.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Thank you. I I that means a lot to me, Sam. And I'm sure you and anyone who's listening, when you're having those periods of darkness or doubt or hopelessness, it is the people around you that hold a mirror up to you and remind you of who you are, you know. And these these situations are temporary, but they serve. And like you said earlier, it's the the backbone, the resilience. And I found as well, um, just the people that I meet that I am drawn to and that I I feel are kind of closest with at this point in my life, have that lightness and that softness, and it's earned as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

It's not yes, so on point. It's exactly what was coming to my mind.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah, there's a kind of there's the other side of tragedy that gives a sense of calm, you know, of that feeling of I've got this and I can handle anything. You know, that's that's really the gift. Uh my I have a a gorgeous, I shouldn't say gorgeous now because he's twice as high as me and twice as wide as me, and he's uh very intelligent and strong. My nephew Ethan, um, when uh I was going through a a bit of a period of um grief, I guess, and he coined the term uh collateral beauty. And this was a kind of phenomena that I I came across um separately, actually. I I didn't want to kind of dwell on my cancer story so much, but I had a very similar story with another close friend of mine a few years before Matt passed away. And so it wasn't my first encounter with bowel cancer uh with a a friend. And I was living in Melbourne at the time, and I was uh visiting him at the Royal Melbourne Hospital and catching the tram. It was an autumn morning, and I was just like, you know, he was declining rapidly, and I was looking at the window. That's funny you mentioned birds at the start of this as well, and I was just like seeing the sun glisten through the trees, and a uh a bird on the tram lines just like singing and sparkling in the sun, and my heart just dropped, and I'm like, that's so beautiful, you know. Like I couldn't I couldn't hold all the beauty, and this is the kind of collateral beauty that happens when we're in these we're being taken to the depths of our capacity to feel sadness, and then it opens us up, you know, it just cracks our heart open, and then the beauty that that also uh presents it's yeah, that's the gift, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

If something in this conversation lit you up, there's a signal in that. If you want help tuning your own signal into a clear next move, start with a three-minute signal check-in at naturalgenus.com.au. And if you want focused support, book a signal lab and we'll work through it together. Now back to the natural genius. I've got a real favorite story. I've I've had nephews week on at Mount Hossam taking my uh youngest nephew skiing each year. And one time I looked across the mountain and I saw this great skier, and I was like, oh, he's a great skier. And then I was like, oh, that's my nephew. He's a great skier. And it's moments like that that maybe we as humans we find what is important to us as individuals, and you're lucky enough to be getting that with your daughters, with your wife, with your family, and even through the grieving process and the cancer journeys that seem to be in our lives at the moment to be able to be in those processes to see someone off and to listen, and to I was lucky enough to provide mango, one of my auntie's favorite foods, to her as she was passing away. And as you say, grief has its own timeline to look back without regret on those things and to just deepen me as a human being because I've been able to be through those processes is very special. I'm gonna lighten up this conversation with asking you to tell me about the bookshelves behind you because before we hit record, you were saying that you found those bookshelves on marketplace, and finally the vinyl that means something to you is on display. Could you tell us a little bit about your love of vinyl and listening slow?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's all it's all just kind of converging into a simple life and what makes a good life. This is the the stripping away of the stuff that's doesn't matter to me as well. And um, there is a saying that uh I can't remember who the philosopher is, but that perfection isn't achieved when there's nothing more to add, but when there's nothing left to take away.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yes, I love that one.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

That's really the the kind of simplification. We've recently moved from the southern end of the Gold Coast, uh, where we lived for seven years. We bought just before COVID. We were planning to build a house and the market just went crazy. Everyone from Victoria and Sydney moved to that area, and it it became just like incompatible with who we were becoming as well. We're now living in Tambourine Mountain, which is known as the island in the sky. We have our own tank water and septic. There's no street lights, uh, it's very peaceful and quiet, and we're living a simple life. And what because the segue to these records and the bookshelf behind me, uh, I did strategically position myself here as a little nod to my dear friend Hamish, because he tagged me to be in this podcast, and so I thank him for that. And also just to kind of point to that comment that you were saying about the depths of friendships where you do when you share these challenges and to be at this stage in my life where friendships are about quality and not quantity now, and those, you know, there's a reason and a season for different connections, and then those that endure and that have longevity and have a history take on so much more value. So I was down at Hamish's place uh a few months ago in Melbourne. Uh Hamish and Eddie Harron and I spent a night in his lounge room. He's a CD guy, so he's he's pretty old school as well. And we listened to CDs all night. He um he also played my new CD. So I've one of the kind of collateral beauty sides of um this grieving process is I've unlocked all of this musical creativity that's been latent in recent years as I've been doing sensible work and I've been writing and recording pretty prolific prolifically. And um, so Hamish gave that a spin, which was a real treat hearing that in his you've seen his stereo system.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

I have. But tell I'm like I'm a bit shocked. Tell me about what musical instrument is it? What vocal?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Tell me what vocals guitar and anything else that I can imagine and play. So uh I I did record a whole album, played everything on an album in the first part of my career. Um, and my latest EP, Clean Break. You can see the theme around that. Um, I played a lot of the instruments on that as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

So oh please, I've got to put the link to that in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

We found something.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

The day I make music money out of music is the day I'll do music full-time, I think. That's the that's the but anyway. Yeah, so these records have been in storage for the last five years. And as I said, like being, you know, taking a big pay cut. My wife's um been our primary breadwinner in the last 12 months. Um, we've had a massive sort of lifestyle change, and we've come to terms with that. And what that's led to is more creativity and getting clearer on how much is enough, you know, what enough looks like. And I think this is something all of us can benefit from is realizing that we don't need what we think we need. So much of what we have it uh wants and actually doesn't serve us. And for us, um, we've been very frugal. We've sort of built this house out with uh secondhand things on marketplace that I've upcycled. This bookshelf I bought for$50, um, and spent a couple of months modifying it and shrinking it down, uh, a little joinery project for myself and mounted it to the wall. Um, got my records out, got them high enough that my two daughters can't reach them as well. One of the advantages, so they're safe and protected. And um I've killed my Spotify subscription. We bought a DVD player over Christmas as well, and we're borrowing DVDs from the library. Uh intentionally watching uh movies. My wife and I have date nights where we watch movies. Oh crap. So I don't know, maybe this makes me sound like a technophobe or something, but just slowing down, enjoying things. And boy, there's there's pleasure in just enjoying the total work of art, the the the liner notes, the album artwork, the smell, the little crackle that you get when you drop the needle before the music starts. It's great. So Hamish will love if only Hamish loves this part of our conversation, then I'm happy with that.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

You too. Tell me how do you best enjoy spreading love and good humor?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

There's three people that are my number one priorities in terms of, and I should say, like, my number one priority is my wife, uh and showing up in that relationship. It's that that's the hardest relationship and the most rewarding relationship that I've ever had in my life. Because if anyone knows, you know, what it's like to be with somebody for a long period of time, this happens in friendships as well. But you know, you don't just organically grow together. And we because we are, I guess, intentional people, we have had periods where we've had to qualify and opt in again, and we've had challenges and trials, and like we're saying earlier, these make you stronger. And um, but showing up with love when it's really hard, when you're sick of the side of the person, when familiarity breeds contempt, when the kids are just you know intense and you feel like you're gonna explode, and then taking the kind route, like that's that's really the hardest thing. Um, we've we're going through a big transition with our girls starting at a new school and you know, saying goodbye to all their old friends in Carumban as well. So showing up with love and playfulness and lightness as well. Had an experience today um where my daughter Harriet, we needed to leave for school. It's her third day of school, second day of school, and uh her headband broke and she ran back into her bedroom and she ripped it off, ripped her school clothes off, screamed into a pillow, which is something we've we've workshopped as a way to let good feelings out, normal feelings out. And she refused to go to school. And I was looking at the clock, had my daughter Esther outside as well. I'm looking at the clock, and I'm like, it seemed like this situation was not going to resolve itself. I said to her, I mean, this is this work is harder than facilitating complex groups, you know? It's like the problem solving and the feeling into it. But in terms of how to show it with love and kindness and lightness as well, uh, I said to her, it's very understandable that you're having these feelings. It's all very new, it feels intense, it's a big change. And my job is to keep you safe and healthy. It's a healthy thing for you to go to school. So you are gonna go to school today, but I'm gonna give you five minutes to feel what you're feeling. I'm gonna give you some space, and then we're gonna get ready and go to school. And she said, And then I closed the door, I put on K-pop demon hunters. I do still have a Bluetooth connection here.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Oh, dad of the year, K-pop demon hunters, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And I started a little dance party with Esther, my three-year-old, and we danced and partied and shook out the juju, and Harriet poked her head out of this door here. And she looked with curiosity, and then she saw Esther giggling and she laughed, and then we had a big dance party, and then I then we said, Okay, we're gonna finish this song, we're gonna get ready for school, okay? I'm like, Yep, and gave her a big hug, and it was all good. Those those three people, and then you know, my life is small at the moment, it really is like showing up in these sort of moments and just um feeling open and loving. So that's kind of what I'm feeling like I'm giving you at the moment, Sam. I'm feeling your open connection and showing up with the people that I meet with as much kindness and love as I can.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

I hope that that the majority of times when those sorts of uh challenges turn up, the dance party equivalent always happens so awesome.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Things you know change so quickly with kids. And I find with my young kids that um so much of my fixed mindset at limiting me at times is like, I can't see a way forward. I can't, this is gonna be like this forever, you know. I can't see how this situation's gonna change, and then it changes. We my wife and I, when when our girls were young, we uh my my first daughter Harriet was young, we'd say, Oh, she's turned a corner, awesome. And then two minutes later, oh no, she's turned another corner. Oh, now she's turned another corner. That's like the corners are constantly being turned.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Oh, I love that. Power of distraction, I learned is a good one. The other thing I didn't expect to learn as an auntie was when I used to take a little one into the hills, he never wanted to turn around. So I always had to do the loop walls rather than the straight walks. Like could never wanted to turn around, wanted to just keep on going. So I learned to get out the maps prior to and go, okay, this needs to be a horseshoe or a loop.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

And up to the tambourine mountain, Sam, and I'll take you some of the most beautiful loops you'll come across. We have up here we worked out, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

We worked out before this conversation, before we hit record, that we both knew Zana, and uh she introduced me to the amazing national parks west of the Goldie, and goodness, they are absolutely outstanding. So uh all the yeses to your invitation, thank you. Let's go walking.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Our nature, you know. Uh I really believe that we're all inherently good, you know. Our nature is good, it's life-giving, it moves toward the light, and so much of that kind of like stripping away to get back into that true nature. That's part of what's drawn us to being close to nature here as well.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

To honour the uniqueness of each of us seems important. It's always been important to me. I think that if you've done coaching work as well and the facilitation work and the impact and ripple effects that you've created, that's possibly also honouring the individual can and collective contributions that is always so impressive.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Yeah, and I mean, I was I was also thinking this how much like this sounds like a parenting podcast with what I'm talking about, but the parallels with the kind of whole holding space for grown-ups and for groups as well. And we don't change really. We we are all scared little kids inside in some way, and we have needs and we feel big feelings, and we feel anxiety during transitions, and there's social awkwardness when we arrive in new settings, all of that stuff. It it's very applicable, like it's actually very transferable. So for anyone in that space at the moment on a career break and wondering like if they're ever going to get back into the workforce or how they can, you know, contribute, like this work is important work that you're doing, and there's a place for it in the corporate world when your time comes as well. I I imagine.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Absolutely. And I think that through the many many different corporate incarnations that I've had, the different stakeholder groups or the different groups from companies I've worked in or consultants consulted to, I love their curiosity with my next project and their engagement. I just think that's so cool because we need definitely for the gen next generation, role models that can make us curious. Yeah. And uh I quite liked having uh a like from uh young family members when I started this podcast. I felt uh that was quite the mobile.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

I think that's fantastic. I know because it is really an uncertain world, and and I I think about this a lot. I you know, in my work in the past, I'm gonna talk about now, um, I have prioritized working with children and young people for that reason because we can't control the uncertainty, but we can control how we respond to the uncertainty. So, so much of what I care about is supporting the next generation to be able to navigate that uncertainty with confidence, with resilience, to know that we can handle whatever comes. And this is all external stuff, and there is a part of us unchanging that can be adaptive and agile uh and go with the flow and use intuition and curiosity to move forward.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

So I love that. I love how you said before this is turning into a parenting episode. I've got a framework for preparing for these episodes, but I don't have an expectation about how the conversation goes. I'll give you a choice of three questions that have come to mind for the last ones. There's there's two optional, and one is a definite either your favorite thing about your kids, and or what you're most proud of through your career. The things that you achieved or the moments that just made you so delighted. And then the final one that's not optional is what mischief are we gonna get up to for Hamish Kari next?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

I love and I shouldn't say no, I won't say hate, but I I love and and it confounds me as well. Is just how unique, talking about you know, the nature, just how unique, weird, quirky, surprising my two daughters are, you know, and who I thought I'd be as a mother. Yeah, how gorgeous kids would be, and I'm like, that's not me, and that's not your mum, and like, who are you? And that's amazing. So that's that's it. It's their, you know, natural genius, and that that I just love, these little like fires that have burnt from day dot. And the cool thing is like you're in their presence and you're like, oh, there you are, you, and like you are you, and who are you? It's just it's amazing. They're just weird and wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

I love it, and I love the words, the descriptors used around fire and and the surprise.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, they're different sometimes, uh you and your wife sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

With Harriet, our daughter, we didn't find out uh her gender before she was born, and she was boisterous and wild in the womb, and we weren't uh we were certain she was gonna be a boy, and then she came out and you know her legs were wide apart, and I was like, oh, okay. And so weirdly, we were gonna call her Wilko after my favorite band, and uh if she was a boy, and uh Wilko means is short for will comply, um that that term, and instead, um I can tell longer story, but we uh intuitively came up with the name Harriet after her being around for three days. It just came to us in a moment of genius, and we later found out that Harriet means ruler of the house. The kind of origin of the term. So we wanted we wanted a compliant child, and we instead we had a ruler of the house, and that's that's her personality in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

I asked you about non-conformity at the start.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Um okay, the the the proudest, there's a few, and you can see also that like I've been through a bit of a journey with my career where two things come to mind, which is that like putting it into perspective, at the end of the day, what we work on in the world and the projects, they matter to the extent that they leave people feeling better than they were before we arrived, you know? That that feeling of like, have I Being life-giving in the work that I've done, and do people feel better as a result of the work that I've done? That that to me is the stuff that matters the most. The accolades, the the you know, the prizes, the awards, all that stuff I've seen with the passing of my mate, it fades very quickly, you know? It really, really does. And the way what we remember about people is is the way that we feel about them. So my proudest projects have been I worked on a co-design program in the outer east of Victoria with the children and young people area partnership at the time. It was the out of an out-of-home care program where we got stakeholders together over three months to co-design solutions to a better out-of-home care transition. And I was the facilitator. We had young people with a lived experience of the out-of-home care system who'd been through trauma. We had police officers, uh child protection, education people, pastors, teachers, you name it, were involved in this program. And then a wider stakeholder group who came for a showcase. And then this group continued to meet once I left the program for months after and built went on to advocate for changing that the age of leaving care. And for me, it was that I was able to create a space, you know, a psychological space, like an architect creates a space for people to feel safe to come together and and collaborate and problem solve and take agency for their shared problems. And so that was that was a particularly crowded project as well. Um there's a lot of sadness in that that system as well, but that that was a very positive experience.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

So many ripple effects, I can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Yeah, and uh those people I'm still in touch with, and you know, those relationships last a long time, I think.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Oh, brilliant. And then the fun one.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna do with Hamish. I'm just gonna be his travel agent because uh I'm planning his next life-changing um trip because you say to Hamish that you wouldn't be friends with him anymore until if the next time you talked he hadn't booked his um. Let's not let the truth stay in stand in the way of a good story. I'm gonna like that. Yeah. I like him. Okay, right.

unknown 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

And I think I enforced that for two weeks. I just ghosted him until I heard that he locked it in. And it was very conditional. My love for Hamish is very conditional on him doing what I ask him to do. So yes. He's he got he's still my friend hanging by a thread, he's followed my rules.

SPEAKER_03 46:42

As long as he follows your new career direction of being a travel agent. Yeah, just obviously that's like maybe there's something in that you're gonna be a travel agent.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

Yeah, maybe I can sell uh like any frustrated um dudes in my demographic. If you need um the enforcer, because I'm so aggressive and masculine. If you need the enforcer just to tell you what to do, give me a call, 1-800.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Enforcer Christian, you are a delight. I don't know whether it's a travel agent, I think it might be uh something like the inspire the inspiration to adventure or something like that. It's a very important role. Uh I did love Hamish's um Hamish's reaction to it, and also I remember at his 50th that I can't remember the exercise, but we all had to write, I think it was something about his next adventure or on a cart. And I saw somebody who has achieved a hell of a lot in life put Kilimanjaru on the cart. So maybe you should encourage him to do that.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Are you a hiker, Stan? Do you Stanny?

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Are you uh sometimes, yeah? Big your pardon? Yeah, it just looks like a looping hiker. With a dear friend in Bhutan, I tried trail running. This was quite a while ago, and I absolutely loved it. And I just couldn't believe that in Bhutan as well. Yeah, like this is from Tiger's Nest, the one, the beautiful temple that is in most of the the it's like the first image that you often see of tourism to Bhutan. And we ran down, trail ran down from that. But one of the things that I loved about Bhutan is it was like somebody had been passed in the national park or the equivalent with brooms and the landscape gardeners had been there before us. They hadn't, but it was just like the most beautifully designed and pristine places, and so trail running down a track is like the steps and everything were pretty clear from what I remember. And and it was a dear friend of mine and the three guides, I think, young guys that just ran with us. So it was this bunch of five of us running anyway. It's a long story to be a short question of do I hike.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

For anyone who's figuring out this Hamish thread with the hike, as well as uh I pushed Hamish to book in a hike, uh a hike with his brother in New Zealand that they've had on their bucket list forever. And he, you know, these sort of barriers that we put in front of ourselves that we can't really see, and the benefit of having a trusted friend or someone just to say, do it, do it. And so that was also good for me because I I'd similarly like I've done a lot of hiking. I lived in Iceland for a while in 2014, and I've done big hikes with my wife before we were married and had kids, and it's a part of me that just like that feeling of awe and getting outside of yourself and just being, you know, one with something bigger than yourself. Very powerful. And so reconnecting to that. Um, I ended up doing a hike, a multi-day hike with my one of my best friends from Melbourne last year as well. So thank you, Hamish. You inspired me to do that as well.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

And you're surrounded the day hikes that you can do in the national parks near you are just so many times there with friends.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Oh, just a little product placement as well as my new innovate um trail running shoes that I bought this week. So these are we're getting back into trail running. I was a surfer for six years and now I'm uh getting back to my roots as a runner.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

I'm gonna wrap us up there, Christian. I have so appreciated your time. What a divine first meeting and his to bushwalking and other Hamish curry mischief in the future.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Thanks so much, Sammy, and thanks for creating this space. I love the way you've approached this podcast and just the openness you've you've had. I felt really compelled to talk to you, and I'm glad I did. It's nothing, like I said, nothing to sell, it's just putting uh into words what hopefully other people are feeling at certain times in their life about transition and what really matters. So thanks for creating that space and giving me a chance to share my story.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

I look forward to having you back on, actually, Christian, because we'll all want to know what's happened. Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius Podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenus.com.au. Thanks so much.