#37 - Ben Rennie: Technology, Adventure, and Designing for Connection

What happens when technology makes life easier, and also starts to take something from us?

In this episode, Sam Bell speaks with designer, author and creativity activist Ben Rennie about technology, agency, adventure, family, systemic design and creating with technology.

Ben reflects on writing Be Kind, Rewind, leaving his phone behind, raising children through adventure and snow sports, building an independent creative studio, and why design needs to look beyond the immediate brief. This is a conversation about values, connection, creativity, and designing for the lives and communities we want to shape.

This episode explores

• Technology, agency and potential boundaries for digital tools
 • AI, writing, critical thinking and trusting your own voice
 • Adventure, family, skiing and building a life close to nature
 • The pressure and possibility of growing a founder-led design business
 • Systemic design, human-centred design and seven-generational thinking
 • Values, connection, climate, community and designing for what comes next

Guest bio

Ben Rennie is a designer, author, speaker and creativity activist working across design, climate, sport and community. He leads Rennie Lab, chairs Design Declares Australia, and is the author of Lessons in Creativity. After 20 years building and leading Reny Studio, Ben’s work now explores systemic design, creativity, technology, and how we reshape the ways people live, connect and build.

Guest links

• Ben Rennie: https://benrennie.com/ and https://www.linkedin.com/in/benrennie/
• Reny Studio: https://reny.studio/services/
• Ben's book: Lessons in Creativity: https://benrennie.com/pages/lessonsincreativity
• Ben’s writing: https://substack.com/@benrennie/posts
• Dear Luke & Ben podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/dear-luke-ben/id1598107677

Conversation references

• Miff Rennie: https://www.instagram.com/miffrennie/
• Zach Bush: https://www.instagram.com/zachbushmd/
• IDEO: https://www.ideo.com/
• frog: https://www.frog.co/
• Christian Duell’s Natural Genius episode: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1GdoioUsgMWdFLDOb5Motl

Chapters

01:33 Leaving the phone behind and Be Kind, Rewind
07:09 Boundaries, AI and agency
12:31 Adventure, writing and the last 10%
21:29 Systemic design, wayfinding, connection and seven-generational thinking
30:00 Snow, family and rebuilding life around nature
40:43 Values, separation and how we show up

Explore further

Book a Lab: https://naturalgenius.com.au
Learn more about Sam: https://samanthabell.com.au
Subscribe to hear future episodes.

About Natural Genius

Through conversations with leaders, thinkers, builders and practitioners across many fields, the podcast explores the signals that guide meaningful work and the choices that shape a life.

Credits

Hosted by Samantha (Sam) Bell in Sydney and Kiama, 14 April, 2026
Produced at the Kiama office, 14 - 28 April, 2026
Natural Genius Podcast https://naturalgenius.com.au

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast. We're here to help you tap into your natural genius. Let's go. Here comes the amazing Ben Rennie. He is one of those warm-hearted, beautiful humans that is good at connecting and growing businesses and humans and enjoying life. I'm really looking forward to hearing his latest. I hope you do too. Ben Rennie, thank you so much. Welcome to the Natural Genius Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

So first of all, thank you for inviting me to the Natural Genius. That's a big uh that's a big one. So I appreciate it. It's a lovely word. It's descriptive of a lot of things. And I don't think anyone's an expert in anything, nor do I think anyone's a genius in anything. But I love the idea that people are trying to get to that space. That's a really cool imagine if that's the world we lived in where everyone felt like they could be or they should be. You know, that's that's the cool thing I like about the word. It's aspirational.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Well, I was just gonna use that word. That's so fun. So I dare say it's aspirational for a lot of people. And sometimes we grow into our aspirations, don't we? Yeah, I think so. Now, Ben, I don't even know where to go next because I feel like you and I both love life. We love surfing. We both love entrepreneurialism, digital, great businesses, business growth. Where do you want to go?

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Well, it's good to see you because I haven't seen you for so long and I've followed you for so long. Like I sort of always feel like I'm up to date with what you're doing, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Let's I feel the same actually, Ben. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah. Oh, well, we're we're pretty confident in having a relatively micro public life. But when I say micro, I mean there's public life and then there's us putting ideas out into the world. Let's start with this morning. I I mean I got in, I jumped on a train this morning to go into the city without my phone because I'm trying to get into this habit or this world where I'm not reliant on my device as this sort of extended part of my body or my being. And I've been writing a lot about it. So I'm writing a book at the moment called Bekind Rewind. And do you remember the BHS tapes? We used to buy a BHS in the 90s or 2000s, even, and they put a little tab in the top saying B Kind Rewind. And I thought it was the oddest thing. And at the time you don't think about it, but now that to me is such a metaphor for life, right? Where you just think, um, we're rewinding a VHS tape for the next person that we're going to meet as a courtesy, you know? And that's what it's asking us to do. And 90% of the time we did it because how dare we uh you know ruin the next person's experience. And the more and more I'm looking at devices and technology and how we're diving into this morphing of digital and and physical worlds, we're getting further and further away from this, you know. And I'm hearing, we're hearing, we're hearing leaders of of you know, of countries sort of talk with just absolute um disdain for humanity, you know, like it's just odd that we to that we can use this language in uh like I wouldn't dare talk like the way a lot of these people that we rely on to sort of you know manage our our health and our countries and our climate. I wouldn't dare even talk like this at a dinner table with our friends, you know, like all people I don't like. And so I just think this little um this little tag in this video just became this sort of metaphor for me around um what changed, what was the difference? Um, why was I why am I so reliant on my phone? And you know, it's interesting, and the reason I brought this up this morning getting on the train is because I've been trying to leave it, and when going to tennis, I'm leaving my phone in the car. I'm going into meetings and coffee shops with clients, I'm leaving my phone in the car, and it is the most oddest feeling today. And it shouldn't be odd, you know. But if you think back to, I mean, I was I was on a rooftop in Lexington Avenue in New York City in 2003. You know, I remember waking up with Miffy, my daughter, she was nine months old or 10 months old, and she's awake, and we're like, well, I can put on the CV or I can go for a walk, you know. And if you go for a walk, where do you go at 5 a.m. in Manhattan? You walk to the rooftop, and on the rooftop is there's other mums with other babies, with jet lag babies, and you just meet people in this really unique way. And I feel like I'm just nervous that that experience for me, I wonder if it's still available because we just dive into our phones, you know. We we have we have entertainment. So, anyway, that's how I left my phone on the train.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Mate, and you were bringing it up because we were ever so slightly delayed at the start of this, and you had this instinct that you were forgetting something, which is part of why I started this podcast, Ben. Well, creativity, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

I intuition for sure, intention, I think is an interesting word, you know. And I remember when um I mean I had a friend, local friend, who was practicing um mindfulness, you know. Yeah, and I remember just going, mindfulness, I'm always mindfulness, and it turns out I'm not, right? We're not, we're not always mindfulness, we're not we're far from it. And I remember just thinking this is the oddest evolution of humanity and the mindfulness, and it turns out that it's actually necessary because of technology, which takes away from this, right? Takes us away from that. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm finding writing is a is a really wonderful process um to find my intention, but also to find um a connection back to something that is human and away from the deep dive into a device, you know, and I'm trying to learn about what that's like. And it's been an interesting journey. Um, and I'm also, you know, during this writing, I'm sort of the last book I wrote was about creativity, and I didn't discover it was about creativity until I got to the end of it. That's a whole nother conversation. But like this one, I'm starting to write about uh the evolution of technology, but what I'm learning about is sort of um, you know, neuroscience and behaviors and learning and how our kids are learning um with a lack of friction versus when we learn we had friction, right? So, what I mean by that was if we um wanted to learn about an artist, you open up a record, you'd pull out the lyrics, you'd touch and feel them, and it's visceral, you're feeling it, and the knowledge is going in. Whereas our kids are being deployed, um, well, we're all being deployed, um, new songs on an algorithm. So we know the lyrics, but we might not know the artist. We might not know the the history or the background. Like, if you ask me in the 90s about Michael Hutchins from NXS, I could tell you almost anything about him, you know, like, and yet we're driving through Utah recently and a song comes on, and I say to my daughter, this is a cool song, and I'm singing the lyrics, right? And I go, Who is this? Because I don't know. She goes, Oh, I don't know, let me Google it. And she goes to Spotify and we find out it's Noah Khan. And we're like, Well, he's great. And it turns out I know five or six of his songs, but I don't know him. Yeah, and this is a really interesting evolution of our world, right? So for us, we needed this friction of going and doing something to learn that to get a record out. And so I'm just diving, I'm diving into that space and I'm finding it really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So, Christian, who was on the podcast uh many episodes uh prior, he and his wife are doing date night with VHS, no DVDs, I think. And he also has gone largely analog, so he's gotten rid of his streaming services, and he's really enjoying the feel of the book and the like the the art.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah, I think the separation is important. That's a really important thing, I think. The separation because I think we are, and I know and I don't think my writing about this is not sort of advocating for getting rid of technology, and nor is it saying that technology is bad. It's a bit like, you know, like I don't drink a lot, but I do like drinking, you know, and I feel like binge drinking every night, we know that's not good. Eating chocolate every night, we know that's not good. And I think technology is a similar thing, you know. I had no boundaries around my usage of it, nor did I understand the implications of it to my agency, to my to my person and my accountability, and you know, and and also my my critical thinking, you know, like you do start to. I mean, I when AI came out, I was like, this is amazing. I'm going to ask Claude, you know, how to do my brisket for 12 hours. And I'm like, I know how to do a brisket. I'm really good at it. But I'm now questioning myself, right? I'm going, well, maybe Claude knows a better way. But then I'm then I'm sort of getting to the end of it. I'm eating it, I'm going, this tastes like the last brisket I did. So this sort of idea of agency, I think sometimes we need to be comfortable in the idea that we can get this wrong. And I think technology steals this from us a bit. It sort of says, you don't need to be wrong because I'm going to give you all the answers. But if we have all the answers, then at which point do our ideas become our own, or where do we lose our agency of I'm in control or I'm in I have the power, you know, to manage this outcome irrespective of what's what I can tap into, you know? Like it's I always I love these conversations around, you know, like even a simple one about, you know, Michael Hutchins died this year and in that year, and I can't remember where he died, but and then someone's on Google and they tell you where he died. But I'm sort of looking forward to the idea of diving into the conversation to try and remember, you know, and now we don't need to do those things anymore. Um, it's just little things like that. But I I think I mean this this idea, I mean, I want to, I'm gonna go back and listen to that guy's podcast episode, but um yeah, I I think it's boundaries, you know. I just never put up any boundaries around my use of technology. Um, and and you know, and it's it also got me bleeding into um, I mean, I'm sitting in a car here because I left my phone in the city, right? And it's odd. This is my first podcast from a car ever.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Um, but part of the reason I thought we've extended you into new technology or new use of technology for Ben, I'm quite proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Thank you. So it's feel really odd, but um, it's working, and this is the world we live in.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Well, I mean for me, sorry to interrupt, but for me it's actually always been about integration. So, how do we have the best Ben, the best Sam, the best other individual, and have technology support the uniqueness and the brilliance coming out.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Totally agree. That's human with technology, right? It's a it's a real balance. I mean, if you're looking for technology for the answers, I think then that's a problem. I think if you're looking for the technology for validation of what you've created, I think that's nice. You know, I think there's a real balance between um, I mean, it's like Google, you know, we're researching, we're Googling stuff. This is just a better version of Google.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

But what I'm noticing with AI, and this is gonna date within moments. Yeah, it is so I'm in a command and control version right now. Like I'm starting to realize that it is about Sam being very strong on directing and then very quick to assess and redirect answers and staying really intentional and really aware of my original intent for when I get onto GPT or onto Claude or whatever, whichever I other agent. Because I also studied in uh industrial engineering, that was so good because it was this platform from which that I can think about making things more efficient and more effective. And I went straight into a corporate career rather than into a manufacturing plant. So I was sort of lucky it just went straight into process and straight into strategy and uh project management. So getting things done in a sort of structured way. And that's exactly where I'm going with AI these days. I feel like it's a great brainstorming partner and it's also helping me to think about which different team members I want on my team and how to better brief and uh what sort of automation I want to set up as well. So I kind of I do think it is about using it in a way that enables.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

I I went, I I agree, I agree with you 100%. So every word you just said is like I would like to sort of reiterate that back in my next conversation in life to someone else. So I agree with you 100%. When AI come out, like every new toy, I got really excited. And I like writing, right? Writing is good for my mental health, it's good for my journaling, it's good for going back over my life and reconnecting with moments that help shape me or where I am, or crossroads, you know. Like I always think about the level of stress I get about a new decision, and I'm like, well, I this is not the first time, you know, and I'm doing okay, I'm here, I'm in love with my wife, have these three healthy children, you know, the things that I wanted, I've got. Um so this stress about this question that I'm trying to solve, you know, like don't worry too much.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

You haven't set on your hands, you haven't just run a branding agency and brought up beautiful children. You actually keep on exploring into what's coming and what's how to refine things.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah. Thank you. That's so cool. You know, I I I we use the term adventure a lot. My wife and I both use it. But I have this sort of fear of the next 10%, the last 10% of anything. So I've so from the outside in, no, this is true, right? So from the outside in, you look at this as oh, he's an explorer, he's out there sort of trying to rediscover and relearn, which I am doing, right? I do love that. I love it's like I'm you know, self-taught designer, self-taught writer. So, and of course, not when I say self-taught, I went and asked for help. So I go and say, Well, I didn't study this academically, but later in life I'm discovering this is something I wish I did earlier. So I'm putting myself around people who can help me discover how to do that right. And I say that in the same way. I used to be a ski coach, so it's it's rare someone can just get on skis and hockey stop. So you ask for help and you learn to do it quicker. Um, and that's how I write. You know, I put myself around people who know how to write, I engage a really good editor. Um, but I think in terms of this piece of calling myself an adventurer, which I do, and I do with a lot of um, you know, I love I love that part of my life. When I got married to my wife, my my father-in-law said at my wedding she was glad that her husband that his daughter was marrying an adventurer, right? And that was and it stayed with me forever, you know, it's pre-kids, pre-everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Oh, that gives me goose bumps.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

And that's beautiful. And but there's this part of me that looks at it a little bit differently. The last 10% of anything is really hard, right? Think about a project. So, industrial design, you're a designer, right? So you get into the last 10% of a project, you'd argue that's where 80 to 90% of the work lives.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

You know, this idea of oh, I talk about it all the time, the 80-20. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, yeah. So you're in that last 10%, and it's really hard. And you're dealing with end users, market shifts, systemics, systemic foundations of things, things that evolve and move. 10% is really hard. Every time I've built a business, I every time I get to that sort of 85-90%, and there's a difference between me being, you know, a business owner with a you know, a million dollar studio and someone who's built IDO, or someone who's built frog design, or you know, and I don't know how I don't know how they did this and how they do it. And I've explored it, and it's that last 10% grind, which takes a little bit of ruthlessness, um, a lot of grunt, a lot of hard work, a lot of risk taking, a lot of bravery. Um, but it involves something, and you've got to, I think you've got to give something up for that. And I've always been scared to give up things. So I'm scared to give up the connection I had with my my children when they were babies. I'm scared to give up my connection I had with my young adults, um the ones I love. I'm in terrified of giving up my connection to my wife, right? So these are things I love. So for me to dive into the next 10% to build IDO, I don't deny I could do it. I think I could. I think you could too. We could all do it. But it's a choice and it's a really hard one. So when I get to that, I go, where do I go from here? Do I sit back and be comfortable in the idea that this is what I wanted to build? And sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm not because times change and industries change. So the adventurer piece is well, where can I take it? Where's a new market or where's somewhere I haven't been before? And you know, we we we we went from building websites, user experience design, and I think we're really good at it, to then moving into climate design, being creative. I'd argue we're the best in the country at it because most people don't know about it, and the people who do don't really take the time to learn about it or do it, right? So um when we set up the design declares chapter for Australia, which is the charity that my wife runs, um, we needed to sort of you know showcase what that looks like in practice. So we went and rebuilt our website on you know, it's clean creative, it's it's as carbon neutral as we can possibly get it at this point in our in our stage of you know building digital products. So that was a really interesting journey into something new. That's adventurous, it's exploring. Um, but at the same time, it's like, what can we take from that experience into the real world? And I started moving into um physical design, places, wayfinding, and we designed you know uh the a building for the Australian Institute of Sport and New South Wild Institute of Sport. And that was coming back to behaviors, right? Because what I was learning through all of our work, all our body of work and all your body of work, was we were designing for systems, systemic design, and where people go. So I became less interested in the thing we're making, what am I going to give you today? And I became more interested in the thing of when I give it to you, what is going to change in not your life, but the people you work with live. And that came back to this idea around systemic design. And so my life over the last three to five years sort of became you know what, anyone can design something beautiful, right? Anyone, I I anyone, it's just a choice. You want to take the time to do it, don't take the time to learn it, and anyone can do it. Um, but what does it do? What if what behavior does it affect because of the thing we put out into the world? So that became my work. Um, and that's adventurous, but again, it's another way of me avoiding the last 10% of trying to do it ideo. I can come back and learn something new, you know. I think it's a bit of a balance. It's like, geez, that's really scary. What can I do in the in the absence of the scary? Maybe I'll do something that's quite interesting and good. I'm gonna go to the left. I'm gonna go over there. And I've learned this about myself at 50, and I'm and I'm not ready for the next 10%, you know. I think I'd be a wonderful employee for someone who wanted to put me under run their agency because you know, with a bit more weight behind me, a little bit more experience and you know, team, I I think we could go great places. But for me, it's just oh man, it's it's scary as hell to go to that last 10%. Writing my book was the same thing. Got to 90% innovation.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

So the last 10% for you with the agency is actually growth, like growing it, scaling it. Is that what you mean by the last 10% specifically for your agency?

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Yeah, because I think there's still when you when you've got a small business, and I'm sure I don't speak to you, but I I feel this all the time. You know, when when you're in a small business of any kind, when things don't work, the thing that suffers is is your health, your mindset, your family. You know, so I make a choice every day to turn up to work and to go and build a business. That impacts my children, right? That impacts my family in a positive way and a negative way. In a positive way, it gives us freedom and flexibility to live in the US, to build relationships in the US, to go on, be present for my kids' sport as often as I can be. Um, but it also builds pressure in a sense of when it doesn't line up, it's money, right? It's the ability to, it's the inability to pay a bill, to meet something that falls due on time. All these things impact me, my mental health, my relationships with partners, with clients, with trusted people you build a lot of years building up. So when I when I talk about the next 10%, it's void of that. You know, you think about the CEO of IDO, he's getting paid regardless. Because there's money, there's there's investors, there's shareholders. For me, it's like the first thing that happens when I can't meet it, meet a demand is I don't get paid. You know, so that's the next 10%. And I go through this cycle all the time throughout my life. You know, I've done that for 19 years, where I'll go, and it doesn't look like that from the outside. From the outside looking in, it looks like Ben's doing well because everyone's walked through Instagram looks wonderful. And that there's this reality of I I call it, you know, people always want to conquer the mountain. It's for me, it's a valleys. It's like when I'm in these valleys of these tight spaces, and I'm like down there going, holy shit, when you want to quit, and you and I do all the time, um, it's like, what is the thing that I can do to tackle this? You know, and it's like, is it learning something new? Is it downing tool than finding new clients? Is it is it new thinking that we don't need to think about? But it's uh me, my life is you know, conquering the valleys, well, you know, more so than the mountains, because the mountain is IDO, and I don't know if I've ever got that in me.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

That was that was fascinating because I was lucky enough years ago to meet some people from IDO and from frog design. I mean, this is being human, isn't it? Being able to choose and direct and be intentional as to where you want to go next.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

The only thing that's left for me in what you just said, if you don't mind me saying, is that you could do it and maybe you should. And also you you've got so much to be proud of. There's so many decisions and things that you've built and new spaces that you've adventured into and explored, and then and then created objects. When I used to be lucky enough to do a little bit of culture change and a little bit of org development, when it was like, well, what are the physical objects that people are going to see along the way that actually help them to realize that something's changed? And so I love what you were talking about before in terms of creating spaces and building beautiful things because it reminded me of that and how sometimes it's like a business card, or sometimes it's a flow chart, or sometimes it's a poster, or sometimes it's sometimes it's like some beautiful object that people can take into the future to see things have changed differently.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah, yeah, I I find it fascinating. I mean, in if I had to sort of start again, I'd I'd want to be an architect. I think it's such an important job, you know, to build the places and the communities and the end result. And if we're talking about systems and systemic design foundations, which is what I call it, this idea of coming back to what is the purpose or the intention that we're trying to create or design for. You know, wayfinding means that how do people move through places, you know, and why do they move through places? And you said earlier, what's the thing that they get? The thing that I hope they get is connection from everywhere. They go, you know, whether it's a pool or it's a gym or it's a cafe or it's a university or it's a uh it should be anything, really. I think the point is that as humans we want to connect, and we're doing that with screens. We're doing it's the phone proves that's true, right? I mean, the phone's designed to addict us in a certain way, but the reason we're we're diving into it is for connection, right? So, in the same way we design places, I think we're not prepared to spend the money on the thinking that goes into the intention or what we want people to do when they get there, and we're overseeing something. So we sort of think that design is um is immediate, it's for now. So we you give me a design brief, and I've had this with some really significant clients, and I can talk about one case study. If you give me a design brief, my job isn't to get it and say thank you, make it, it's to re-brief and push back as the designer to get you to reimagine what you hadn't thought of, right? That's stage one, and that is to say, you know, I I go to a doctor and I ask, I say, Hey, I think I've got this problem, and they're gonna re we're gonna reframe that brief for me and tell me, no, no, we think it's this, and we're gonna identify it and we're gonna dig in and we're gonna solve it this way, with intention to improve my my life, right? And also my relationship with that person and my trust. So if we in the same way, um at talking about design, we when someone says, I want to, you know, build something of use that we can carry water in, single-use plastic is the most genius uh invention and design in human history, but it's also the most destructive. So we're designing for immediacy, someone gets a brief and says, Hey, design me something that can carry water, right? That I can sell and commercialize and move. Because someone solved that brief and did a great job, but what they didn't do is imagine the brief was wrong. This is a bad brief, right? So, because now we've got this sort of, you know, it's good for humans, bad for humanity. So, what this means is when we talk about human-centered design, designing for me, humans, or for you, or for the people into the brief, we're missing the behavior of the humans and where they go or where they take it, or the things that they communicate with and things they do. So we've always sort of got to look a bit past that and try to understand that the group we're designing for, what are they gonna do? You know, and design thinking, I think, sort of anchors us a bit in an endpoint. It starts here with empathy, which I think is important, but it ends with a product or a service, and it that that's the problem, it ends. And if we think about indigenous culture in Australia in particular, through storytelling, they talk about seven-generational thinking. And seven generational thinking is this idea about if I tell this story or my story of my life, is this valid to future generations? Well, they talk about me in a way that is positive or reflective of my community or of my country or of my heritage. And um, if I you know, and this is why when they make things, they make things that are just drawn from the earth, you know, they're drawn from like existing things, and and this is seven-generational thinking. And I think we we miss an opportunity with this to sort of, you know, to put things into the world that'll be there in generations, you know, and we we undervalue our skills, we undervalue the problem we're solving, um, and that's a problem. So I think that that to me is the biggest learning for me uh the last five years. And this is not something I went into design knowing, it's something that I really worked through. Ben, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

That uh seven-generational thinking has been on my mind for 15 years or so, since I was I think I kind of instinctively knew it, but I think maybe you might be the same. And then when I was on uh in an indigenous community on the Cape in the north of Australia, uh they were talking about having kicked out a consultant that didn't want to think in a hundred years, maybe not seven generations. I want to bring you back to what you just were saying about the water bottle because that was so cool. There's two things that came to mind. One is that when they were putting a McDonald's in Torquay down on the Great Ocean Road in Australia, the uproar in the community and the um protesting was more around the fact that around every McDonald's there's like three kilometres of rubbish, like it it waits for a kilometer and then for the next couple of kilometers, there's just people throw the rubbish from McDonald's out their windows. So they didn't want to actually have that ring of rubbish around them. And I've always thought if that's such a thing, if it's so well known and there's so many McDonald's stores, why is that not embedded in McDonald's's business model? And then when you were talking about water bottles, I was confronted years ago because I signed up for that water bottle, no water bottle pledge. And so I was really good at not buying single-use plastic, except for when I was in places like Mongolia and Bhutan or places that you you had to not drink the water there. Anyway, and then a friend of mine said, Sam, you're stopping the accurate uh numbers around demand for mobile water. If you get a water bottle when you need a water bottle, then it tells the system this is how many water bottles Sam needs in her life. And from what you just said, I love how you said that the end of the design process wasn't it it didn't keep looping or it didn't finish. Because the single-use water bottle would have then been okay in seven generations. We don't want to actually have this plastic that's hanging around, or we don't want to rely on all these lovely new innovators that are going to find a way of being able to decompose uh single-use plastic in these seven generations. We actually want to design from beetle leaf or some sort of deep.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Well, I know in the US, the US has done a really good job of this. This is by consumer demand. So the single-use plastic bottle is now a aluminium or aluminum um bottle that is you know that is reused over and over, and it's coming from recycled materials, it's coming from repurposed goods. And a lot of these brands just through consumer pressure have started to build it. And you know, I don't need to go and buy my $29 or my $40 water bottle now. I can just buy this once and you'll use it for six months, you know. And and in the US, it's a really convenient approach to water, airports in particular. Things on airports, you've got to empty your water. Um, so this is a really robust, sturdy aluminum or aluminium can.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I'll listen to you, subbodies.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Yeah, that can be um I've had to I've been corrected on aluminium a thousand times in America. It's like, what the hell is aluminium? Aluminum. So when you um yeah, when you are squeezing that, it's like it'll last you for a long time. And it's interesting. And I and I haven't looked at I don't know the implications of you know the production and the and the cost of the climate around that, but I like the fact that there's a change here because we know the plastic is wrong, we know it's a problem. And also so is the need to go and continue to buy $50 bottles over and over and over when we lose a lid or when we lose a thing. And so I think that you know, we need to put pressure back on on manufacturers everywhere to make things, you know, better and smarter with more intention. Um, and and it's not even about the immediate climate impact, it's the forever impact that I'm interested in, you know, like what are we doing that things beyond our generation or into the future. So I don't know, I think that's interesting. And and again, I'm the consumer. I mean, I've got a bottle of plastic water here, but I don't buy it. But if it's if it's available, I'll drink it. You know, like I'm not saying, you know, there's a place for everything, but I think, you know, some countries, some countries can't drink any water without plastic bottles. You know, they really need that. So there's challenges that are social challenges that go way beyond um my immediate sort of knowledge base, but through good research and trying to understand better processes of systems and design, we can solve these things at a different level.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

So, Ben, tell me about being in the US now that we're talking about aluminum. And uh if you feel like bringing in any sort of snow stories, I would be delighted.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Yeah, well, that's how we ended up there. We ended up in the US um because of snow. I don't know if you remember this. So years ago I had a business for 6.2, and I've told this story so many times, so I don't want to bore anyone who's heard it, but I'll uh I'll I'll be really brief. So in 2000 and well, actually, first of all, when when the kids were babies, we wanted to get back into snow sports, but we couldn't afford to. So my wife and I decided to volunteer as ski patrollers at Mount Selwyn. Do you know Mount Selwyn?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Well, I only do because of you, Ben.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah, okay. It's tiny, right? It's tiny and it's fun and they're the most wonderful people. And it's had a real, it's that's had a tough five years, man, through climate change, through fires.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

And Ben, did you move somewhere near there to for that reason as well? Or did you have to do that? Oh yeah, we we moved, we moved down there.

SPEAKER_03 30:45

Yeah, we moved. We moved to ginder barn for winters only, and then we moved to Lake Tahoe in California for winters. So we faced winter for four and a half, five years. And when we um moved to to ginger barn, we did it for volunteer skip trollers to be in nature in the mountains. But what what had happened to me was through my business, I I had a bit of a I don't know if they call this a meltdown or a or or a panic attack, but I sort of I remember going to McLaren Vale in South Australia. I was working with one of the big four banks, we're in a workshop. And I'm not saying this is the solution to having a tough day at work, but I remember sort of walking through the vineyards going, fuck man, this is amazing. And my life was becoming more and more um attached to boardrooms, big business. We were working with Golf Oil, Caltechs, um, big banks, and we were just sort of finding ourselves in these places I've never been, didn't even know how I found myself there. We were just evolving in through innovation into these places. And at no stage we'd like questioned the places we were going or the people we were working with or what they did or the impact I had on my life. And at home, we were really good with um recycling, sustainability, really good. But then I go to work and I'm working with anyone who, irrespective of what they did or the impact they had. So one day in Adelaide, I um I was in McLaren Bale, and midway through a meeting, I had this sort of panic attack as here I am again, doing more of this work, you know. And uh I sort of wondered, you know, if not me, then who would be here? And if I wasn't here, where could I be? Um, and in the midst of that panic attack, I left the meeting halfway through it. Um there were eight people in the meeting and I was running it, and I excused myself, said I wasn't feeling well, went straight to the airport, left myself at the hotel. I was really unwell, I was really struggling, jumped on a plane, and um within eight days of my wife and I booked a trip to Lake Tahoe for a month to say, let's just get out, we'll get away. And we really couldn't afford it.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Then sorry to interrupt. So, was that also because on skis you felt like your mental health was strong? Like, is that was that an idea of getting back on?

SPEAKER_03 32:49

It was more nature, so it wasn't even skis, it was more nature. I mean, we love skiing, it's my thing I've done my whole life. I was a ski instructor and a snowboard instructor. So we sort of did I did that in my early 20s, and yeah, I was an instructor slurit when I was 19, 20. So all these things were important to me, and I sort of kept getting further and further and further away. So this particular moment, Adelaide was like, okay, let's go and find snow. Let's go somewhere we've never been. So we chose to go to Lake Tahoe, and we fell in love with it, and we just decided to stay, you know, and that was that was this real turning point in my life because a couple of things happened. One is the kids who'd grown up in Mount Selwyn, you know, uh in the ski patrol house, learning to ski, building their own jumps, doing all these things, got to Tahoe and went, Oh, this is amazing. This is big. Huge, huge, this is proper snow. There's all these things, their eyes just lit up, and we all just fell in love with the place. And so wow, I need to emphasize we couldn't afford to do this, but from a mental health point of view, I couldn't afford not to. And I fell in love with skiing again. My wife has always been mad for skiing. Um and yeah, that that that four months, sorry, that month became four four and a half years. We did that for. And and we just, you know, Vashti Whitfield, who's my my coach, life coach, said, um, you know, sometimes, you know, it's like there's it's a noble thing to forage for work, to forage to survive, you know. And I felt like I was doing that with a young family, you know, we had three kids at the time, and we're living in um sort of Lake Tahoe, which later became Park City, Utah, which is where we based ourselves for years, and my daughter still bases herself there. Um, we yeah, we just um we just made it work, man. It was a struggle, it was so hard.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

And tell me, well, how old were the kids when you were going through this?

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Um 12, maybe 11 and 12, 9 or 10, and six or seven. Yeah, yeah. So Miffy, my youngest, she so the two middle Pippi is just chiller, right? So Pips, she's 16 now. She's chiller, she loves to draw art, she loves to read books, she's chiller, she's she's she went. I'll give you an example of Pip. She made the Australian Interschool's national titles, came 10th, got to the end of it, we went, that was amazing. And she went, Yeah, no, never doing that again. That was that's bad.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Oh gosh, I've got kids in there like that.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Oh, just chill, don't care. And also we noticed she had a ski boots undone because they were tight. So she did the the national downhill GS with the ski boots undone and got to the bottom and came 10th out of 90 kids and went, yeah, nah.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

You two must be so proud as well because you wouldn't have been part of teaching her. That sounds like really beautiful balance on the stage, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Well, it's the opposite of Myth, who's like, I came 10th, I need to go and destroy the other nine kids, and I'm gonna go and go to the gym this afternoon. And so Myth was this sort of go get them terrifying, competitive, it still is today, um, young athlete. And Piff was just like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the opposite of that one, you know. Whatever she does, I'm gonna do slightly the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Oh god, I love kids. This is so we're so lucky to see them grow. Yeah, so tell me more. So, and then did was work already remote? Like, and and then how did you manage all of it?

SPEAKER_03 35:58

I I resigned from my company, so I had a business partner in Melbourne, and I sort of stepped away from the business altogether um and started designing, you know, a lot more hands-on. So got on the tools, started building things, making things, designing sites, building sites with freelancers attached. Um, so I was almost back to the drawing board and starting from scratch and rebuilding a life, you know, that that was sort of the opposite of the one I'd built. Um, and the one thing that that last business gave me a lot of confidence for was that I could create something from scratch. So I sort of felt like I'd created the wrong thing. So start again and let's create the right thing, which is sort of where I moved into design, like physical design and making things. Um, and I enjoyed that journey, but it was it was a hard work. Like I would get up in the morning at 8:30, ski with the kids till two all day. And at this stage they'd moved into some competitions, right? And I'm very young, so we're probably those parents that were on the hill, you know, with those widows with their kids competing at 10 and 12. Um, but you know, we would do that to, you know, we couldn't afford coaches or anything, so I would coach them. I'd do my FIST course, my level one coaching certificates. I did all that stuff. Um, but not coach them is in knowing coaching, no, just coaching them from a, you know, we turn up, we we we put in an effort, if we're not feeling it, we we we're brave enough to ask to sit out. So a lot of that coaching and MIF and Kai might tell it from a different story, but I'm pretty sure they they they shared a lot of that sentiment that it was a fun, hopefully a fun journey for them. Um but at 13, Myth got put on the Australian ski team. So she she did really well in the US, made um won a bunch of competitions, made the US nationals, finished fourth of the US Nationals for under 16s when she was 13, and um yeah, came home and Richard Heggity, who was is now one of the heads of Canada snowboarding, had rang and said, We've been watching Myth and you just want to join the Australian ski team. And yeah, it was a real so that became our life. We was we wanted to sort of support that. And um Clyde made the Australian junior development program. So he got himself an Australian snowboard jacket, and he won the Australian junior titles three or four years in a row. And so it was um, and we're hanging out with some wonderful people, like you know, Eileen Goose, one of his multiple gold medalists, one of my daughter's training partners. Americans are just wonderfully optimistic, you know, when you're when you're around sport, encouraging, you know. We were talking, I was talking to my daughter about this yesterday, you know, we're at we're at tennis, and we're playing on doubles on a court, and we're playing with two Americans, and the court next to us was four of you guys, you know, and every time someone did a good shot, the response would be, oh mate, you pulled that out of your ass. Oh mate, what a fluke. And on our court, the two Americans, Nick did a great shot, and she's like, Oh my god, Mitch, that was amazing on the other side, and there's this natural sort of um abundance and confidence and wanting to see you just so cool, then yeah. So I love that about being in America around Americans. I think it was a great nurturing environment for positivity for the kids, you know. Whereas I feel like we are a little bit more um when I say we Australians, I grew up this way as well, we're a little bit more, yeah, tall-poppy, you know. We like to, you can't just do a good shot because of talent. You did a good shot because you pulled it out your ass, you know. And I and I don't like that language, but try not to use it. And I think we need to build our young people up from an absolute position belief that you know they did something because of the intention to do it. And when it went in, it was because they decided to be there and be present. And so that's the way I like sort of um encourage young people today is to you know, the opposite that I was encouraged from from sports.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

That's so admirable. And so is life still between the US and Australia.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Up until the last 12 months, you know, we've sort of US politics has got a bit polarizing. Uh, there's a lot of division there, and I think that that needs to all settle down. So we've we've got a business in LA that is um, I would say relatively successful. We have clients in New York. I was in New York in December, and we have clients in Salt Lake City in Utah, Utah Jazz, the NBA team, is one of my clients and a great client and some really dear friends. You know, one of my favorite clients is in is in Lower East Side of New York, and I go over there and you know, we work out of Earth House. She's a she's got a she's got a really successful law firm and is part of a big group of law firms. So yeah, I'm really attached to Manhattan. Um, I love Salt Lake City. Um, I love the Mormon community there, the connection they have is just wonderful and beautiful. Um, I'll I'm atheist, I'm no religion, which they find that absolutely fascinating. So I think that's um that makes me interesting in that town, you know, because I'm in the minority and I think I find that quite fascinating. And um and I just love LA, I love West Hollywood, man. I so I I feel like insanely blessed to be part of that. And it breaks my heart into tiny little pieces to watch the biblical just run through that country and um and the continued support of just you know, just devastation across the planet.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

That I think any tips around how you actually help people to not do that separation? Like it's not just America or it's and as you say, it's international. Any tips as to how you carry yourself or what you'd recommend others to do to help to bring that closeness and that camaraderie and even that sweetness that you described on the tennis court?

SPEAKER_03 41:06

I think it comes back to, you know, I did I did some work for a company called Farmers Footprint, and it's owned by a guy called Zach Bush. Incredibly amazing human. He's a doctor, right? And what and I'm gonna tell you this is my long version to get to your answer to your question. Go ahead. Thank you. And when when he was um he he was studying glyphosate and he was looking at gut health in particular as a doctor, right? So traditional doctor. And the more and more he studied gut health, he kept coming back to glyphosate, which is um Roundup, the chemical in Roundup, right? So he started looking at river systems and he discovered in river systems at the end of river systems, um, the impact. So my mom had cancer for 15 years, started with breast cancer, become everything cancer, bone cancer, brain cancer. Uh, but she lived 15 years with cancer, right? Now, if you live at the end of these river systems, close to the runoff of glyphosate into the water, then your lifespan with cancer is probably six months, irrespective of your will to survive or your treatment. Um, and I know America has some complex issues around health support systems um and and healthcare, but at the same time, like irrespective of the treatment, that six-month number is real. And it's because of the runoff, right? So Zach got really interested in this. He started to go, well, the farming is wrong. And he came, all his work came back to soil, right? Back to to grow good farms, we need good soil. So, why do we need glyphosate? Let's go back to enrichment of the earth and the dirt and soil. So he he came back to all his work came back to soil, right? And then he came back to gut health and he connected the importance of soil back to our gut, right? And the and so I think if you look at the human body and what goes in, it's generally a reflection of what comes out, how healthy are we, how connected are we, how much do we love um, you know, the thing that we're giving out into the world. But I do love this idea, and you know, coming back to your question is what can people do? We can enrich the soil, you know, we can either we can either pour glyphosate on it, you know, and it's quick and it's simple, or we can actually take the time to nurture the soil, nurture the relationships, and that comes from this under this position of understanding. And I think the reason I like to tell this story is because we've got two friends in um Salt Lake City who are Mormon and or sorry, LDS. And they they sat down with Kai and I had a having breakfast one morning in Salt Lake City, and she said, I just I can't believe that you have no God. And I said, I have I have faith in I'm spiritual, I I'm I like I love the idea of country, I like the idea of indigenous thinking and and connection back to land and and the earth and everything is connected, right? And I said, I like this. And in the midst of this conversation, she sort of sat there and looked at me and she said, So you your children are like the soil, they're like trees out of a soil. So she said, right? Me trying to explain indigenous heritage and culture. Spirituality. And I said, Yeah, for sure. His he's like a planted tree. I've got to water that, you know, I'm going to nurture that and love it. And she said, The thing that I don't understand is where your values come from if they don't come from the church. So she said, and and I said, Well, they come from my mum and dad. They come from myself, my values around how I want to show up in the world. And I write these down, you know, like I write them down and go, and they change all the time because I think we change. I'm not the same guy my wife married. I'm completely different. I'm slightly chubby, a lot grayer, and much bolder than I was then. But hopefully I'm more caring. Hopefully I'm more nurturing as she goes through her changes. And hopefully we got each other's back in the same way that you know I can give to my community. I can't control what happens in US politics, but I can control how I show up in the world and what I say about it. And I think that is the missing ingredient right now. It's like, what can I bring? What can I give? What can I take? What you know, we look at climate change as a designer, is I'm not interested in the awareness of climate change within the design industry. I'm interested in what design can do to solve climate change. And as a designer, it's like, well, I've got a role to play now, right? And I think this in the same way is in the same way that our LDS friends found connection and love through a set of values from the church, I find that from my heritage, from my family, from my parents. And I think if that hasn't happened to you, because you might not have had that connection with parents, that doesn't mean you can't start that. You just get a nap, you get a napkin out and you write down the things you love about humanity and the person you want to be. And I think sometimes we get caught up in a device, and this is what I'm writing about now, coming back to the book. Is it's like as I'm diving into this device, where am I diving into? Do they align with my values? Do they align with the things that I want to show up in the world as? Because they will alter it, they will change it, you know, they will absolutely change it. I mean, my my brother died, you know, during COVID, deep dived into a phone and haven't come back out, you know, haven't come back out. Is like the manosphere, Andrew Tate has got all the answers. And I I don't know if that's healthy for anyone, you know, because you're losing your values and you're hanging out of power to someone else's values, they're no longer yours.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

And it sounds like you've got such a lovely provider, protector, natural way about that and loyalty.

unknown 46:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

And just it's so, so lovely to hear your perspective. The wonderful thing about these podcast conversations, Ben, is that I do write down questions and I spend time preparing. This conversation, it's covered every every question that I've had. And I didn't expect that we would go into talking about tips for uh going beyond separation. I'm so so pleased to have got your point of view on that. That means a lot to me.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Yeah, I don't think it's um, I don't think relationships are easy. Like, you know, I'm madly in love with my wife, but I also understand that one day she might not be in love with me. Do you know what I mean? Like I I recognize this. I don't I don't think by getting married isn't a given right that that will be forever. I don't think it is forever. And if one day she just turned up and said, you know what, I've got other goals. Like she's got a PhD at the moment, you know, she's got dreams and goals. This is a big commitment from her. And I also understand that this changes her life, where she goes and where she heads, and the people she hangs with, the circles. And I understand this. And my goal is to support and nurture that. Um, like I think it's wonderful. I'd love the the ability to write to do a PhD. So I support it, but look, I just think that it's a day at a time, it's being intentionally how you show up into relationships, and she will say, Oh, he's absolutely shit at this. He is absolutely shit. But I think I don't think we're shit at having each other's back. No matter what happens, you know, and how hard it is or how easy it can be sometimes. I think we're always looking for something easy, you know. And I think this is our problem with devices, you know, it's it's creating so many efficiencies that the things that are hard, such as connection and relationships and give and take, you know, I feel like they feel harder and they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

I think that it's also how people are tapping in. Because I've got a number of friends that are actually using agents to be able to brainstorm how they might handle a certain personal situation. They might not be able to afford a psychologist, they may have done a lot of work on themselves, so they want might want to like DIY rather than go and see someone. There might be many different reasons why they're doing that, but I I I think it's an end. I don't think it's don't use the technology, I think it's um, or that the technology's stopping us. It's like what you were saying earlier, that it's how it's the same as social media and digital. It was like, no, no, no, no, no, we shouldn't, it's bad. And then it's like, no, no, it's about integrating it. How is it going to be useful in your life? How do you turn it off? How do you not carry it around and still turn up to a podcast recording? Thank you, Ben.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

No worries. Without my device. Very proud of myself today.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Oh, dude, I'm like, I come back to the fact that I'm really happy that through this conversation we've ended up by giving you another way of being able to work digitally and like to be able to create, because I mean, I just love that. Like Ben, support Ben as best as we can. It's the same for future robots that are in human form around our home. I'm like, how do people work out how to integrate them in a way that works for them, especially around data privacy, which I always think is quite interesting as we go forward.

SPEAKER_03 49:33

I got a um, I was in I was in West Hollywood in might have been November or December. I haven't been since January. My wife's been back to the US a lot. My son lived over in Nebraska, he's playing basketball over there, but I haven't been back since Christmas. And um I was in West Hollywood and a guy came in. I stayed in the Zingy's hotel, which I love. It's so good. It's sort of super cheap and super cool. They got record players in the foyer, and they're always playing records as a DJ and have a live band every night. I love it. You know, this guy came in with a D with a robot dog. This robot dog. And I and I was like, what is happening here? And he had a remote for it. And it was, and I of course went up and said, Can I meet your dog? This is the honest thing. And it jumped up for a pet, all these kind of like crazy things. But it's his pet, but this guy has got this pet dog. And I was like, Is this an experiment? What are you working on? Where do you work? I think he was gonna say, I work at Google or somewhere amazing, some lab. So no, no, this is my dog. This is my pet. Okay, this is a crazy thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

And and like being the person that you it uh present is somebody that's open to understanding that that's how somebody wants to use technology and good for them kind of thing. I really do think that that's we don't actually know. We're getting more and more into uniqueness, like neurodivergence as a topic is one of the many re many uh indicators of that, and that we're starting to get even more clear that each individual has different ways. And so everyone has a right to use the technology as they want to. I think that as humans it it'll put us in good stead to be ready for the machinations or the different sorry, the permutations of technology and being open to Bob might use it, Sally might use it in all different ways. That doesn't mean that I have to use it that way. And as we were saying at the start of the call, like being sort of directing, like still keeping our sovereignty and our personal direction around how to use it.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Totally, totally, and it is choice. I I as soon as you were talking about that, I was thinking about Grammarly for some reason. Um, but more to the point, I think Grammarly, well, I think we're all using this to a degree. I mean, I think I think Google Docs edits for you anyway, but I've been using it for my last book. I used Grammarly for everything. I added, you know, 78,000 words would be Grammarly and gave it to my editor, and of course, she went and edited the beginnings about the whole book. But I think um now Gremly is turned into AI and it's now writing for me. So I'm writing and it's me and it's authentic. And the first part it would say, let's change this whole paragraph to this, you know. And there was this point where I go, okay, okay, you must know. You know, and I'd go, yes, you know, and they'd chuck in my m-dashes and and re-word, reframe my sentences. And I'd read it and go, it's not what I was trying to say. You know, this is not the same thing. And so I think everything's trying to become something else all the time. There's a lot of value in this idea of just solve a problem and solve it really, really well and be really good at that thing and be really narrow and deep at it. And that's my focus now is to sort of try and go. I'm writing a book and I'm gonna go really narrow and deep on this book about this one thing. You're gonna write about this one thing really, really well. And and I think, and I'm not gonna trust that Grammarly knows more about my writing or my story or my research than me. I'm gonna trust myself that I do, and I'm gonna use it for grammar editing because I'm not a writer, um, but I'm not gonna let it take over my writing or my agency or my ability to sort of think critically around is this the right thing? I'm gonna be comfortable in the idea that you're gonna like it. You know, comfortable in the idea that it's generally mine and you're not gonna like it. Like I remember it six me um who do you like to write like? Who do you love reading? I said, I love Malcolm Gladwell. I said, great. Let's reframe this like Malcolm Gladwell. I'm like, what? The guy's been writing for 40 years. I can't write like that. Nor do I want to. You know, I want to write like me. And I think we need to be comfortable in the idea that somewhere out there, you know, Malcolm Gladwell's got his audience, and that's not mine. It can be mine, but mine is six people who love my book or six thousand or six million.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Or like Kevin Kelly first said, like the a thousand true fan true fans.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

Totally. I love that. Benny Fella's the best. Yeah, he's the best.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Thank you so much for your time, Ben. That has been so on point. Everything that we've talked about has been so useful to me, hopefully for others, hopefully for those thousand true fans. Um, I look forward to when next we find time to connect and love to you and your family. And again, thank you for the beautiful showcasing of amazing values and living life well. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the Natural Genius podcast. Please share this with anyone who came to mind and visit us at naturalgenious.com.au. Thanks so much.