Meet Your Co-host, Dawn

In this conversation, Dawn and Elsa discuss the goals and experiences of their podcast, which centers on honest confessions from guests. Dawn hopes listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the meaningful work that people do. They share personal anecdotes, including Dawn's experiences as a workplace investigator, and discuss their excitement and nervousness about launching the podcast. The unique bond and long-standing friendship between Dawn and Elsa adds a special dynamic to their collaboration, making the podcast both fun and meaningful for them. The conversation highlights curiosity, connection, and the joy of working together as close friends.

Want to be interviewed? You can remain anonymous. Voice distortion now available. Email or Text us!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors. I'm Elsa Barbie. And I'm Don Andrews.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

We have been friends since sixth grade. Somewhere between a car wash job, a few questionable boy choices, and 40 years of friendship, we became the kind of people who always want to know what was really going on, including at work.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

Don spent 25 years as an employment lawyer digging into workplace drama from the inside out. I built a long career in the beauty industry as a brand educator with a few TV cameos sprinkled in for fun.

SPEAKER_04 0:33

We came up in very different industries, but we have the same passion, meeting new people and asking how they got their jobs, what they love, what they can't stand, and what happens behind closed doors.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Every episode, we talk to a new guest about their lived experience in the world of work. And because our guests stay anonymous, they can spill the truth without the fallout.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

We get into the choices they made, the tiny cruelties, the surprise kindnesses, and some of the moments that never make it into human resources reports.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Equal Parts informative and titillating. This show serves up all the tea while honoring the incredible, complicated, often messy work people are doing across the industries and across the map. Welcome to Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors. Let's get into it. Why don't you start by telling our listeners your version of how we know each other?

SPEAKER_04 1:26

I remember we met in sixth grade in Mr. Warren's class, Mr. Warren's homeroom. And um I I remember that there was some kind of issue between us. There was a lot of side eye for a brief period of time. And then we became really good friends really fast too. You've just been that anchor friend for me, you know, that friend that just never disappears on me, no matter what. And there were some rough years, you know, there were there was a lot of distance because I went to college away, I went to law school away, I studied abroad. And truthfully, the first like five years that you practice law, if you're at a big firm like I was, you don't have friends and family. You just work. And um, I was fine with that until I wasn't. And I kind of woke up one day and was like, I miss my friends, I miss my family. I don't want to just sit here at this desk typing away. Um, and you were always great about staying in contact. You didn't just let me disappear, and that wasn't true of all my friends. So um, and now I see you every week. I can't imagine not seeing you every week. Uh, I go on girls' trips with you a couple times a year. I mean, it you're like you're like a sister, and all of our mutual friends say that we we fight like sisters.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Right? Yeah, totally all the time. So there's that. But let's start off with your uh first job. What was that?

SPEAKER_04 3:05

First, like W-2 job was gosh, I think it might have been at the dry cleaners. I started the dry cleaners, the car wash, and delivering pizza for pizza hut kind of all at the same time because I never do anything by halves, I guess. Um, and so I was like a uh desk person at the dry cleaners, doing intake and running the register for$4.25 an hour because that was minimum wage back then, folks. Yikes, yikes, and then started working as a ticket taker like you did at the car wash, and then moved inside as a cashier. Um, you were always one or two steps ahead of me. I think I became a cashier, you were like assistant manager.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

See, that was the only time I was ahead of you, D.

SPEAKER_04 3:53

I doubt that. Um, but it was it was really fun working together. We didn't always overlap in our shifts, but we had so many fun stories. I mean, there's so many car wash stories um that we could tell uh if they ever become relevant to the pod.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

But when you mentioned that you were working three jobs, I forgot that. And now everything makes so much more sense about how you use the burnout is my love language. To describe what you do for a living. And when I say that, I mean let's start your whole your whole journey of you mentioned going to law school. Let's start with that. Describe what you do for a living today based on everything that's led up to this point.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Okay. So after law school, I practiced labor and employment law at a large law firm, international law firm for seven years. And then I had been handling a case for a client, a big um energy holding company, and they approached me about coming to work for them. And by that point, I was pretty burnt out on being a trial lawyer and not having a life as we discussed. So I decided to go in-house. So I went in-house there and I had a bunch of roles there. I was um uh senior counsel, and then I was the uh chief employment counsel, I think I was a managing attorney, then chief employment counsel, so I headed the the function. And then um I had little kids and I decided to take a step back. So I went part-time. I gave away my fancy chief employment counsel role to a wonderful uh woman, Deborah Martin. She's probably gonna listen to the pod. Um, and she was far better at it than I ever was. And then I worked for her for a bunch of time, and then there an opportunity came my way to come back full-time as the director of diversity, equity, and inclusion for that company. And I had a lot of imposter syndrome about that. I really didn't think I was the right person for the job, but I'd been advocating for the company to create a position like that. I just had somebody else in mind. So it was sort of like, well, you advocated for this. You you need to take the job. And the best decision I ever made was to take that job. And it was so, so awesome that they offered it to me. And I worked in that role for three years, and it was honestly the best job I've ever had. I felt so motivated every single day, and I thought I think we made a lot of progress. I had that role during the social justice movement. So you might remember the George Floyd murder, and there were lots of related killings and protests, and it was a time where we could have a lot of momentum in the DEI space because we had that going on, we had the pandemic, um, the company was really focused on employee engagement, and DEI is basically an employee engagement tool. So we had did a lot of great work, community conversations, like really, really good work in that space. And then the attention shifted away from that. And so I ended up going to one of the subsidiaries and heading up uh in the law department, heading up their ethics and workplace culture function. Um, I created a unit of workplace investigators there, hired the group, and um, we handled hundreds and hundreds of investigations. So a lot of people ask me what that is. So to get ahead of that question, yeah, please. Most big employers have a helpline of some sort. They might call it a hotline. We called it a helpline. And employees, um, external parties, contractors, really anyone can call that number and lodge a complaint about any of the company's employees. But somebody needs to look into those complaints because, legally speaking, if they rise to the level of harassment or discrimination, you have a legal obligation to investigate in a certain way and to take corrective action when necessary. And because the company I worked at had been around by that point for like 150 years, they they were very cautious and um didn't take risks. So we investigated every complaint that came through. So um it was a great job because I love talking to people and I love learning about what people do for a living. Um, I've always been interested in people. It's why I picked labor and employment law. I wanted juicy facts, you know, the payton place type uh feel. And uh I thought I'd get it in family law, but I interned in that field and thought, oh man, this is tough. This is really personal and um nasty. And then I thought, well, maybe I'll be a criminal defense attorney, one criminal law class, and I was like, yeah, I'm afraid of blood. So that out that goes. Um and so employment law was perfect, and investigations were really perfect for me. Um so and I really felt like um it was an opportunity to receive a great corporate salary, but really be advocating for employees, which is my passion. So um I think a lot of people, and we heard this in our in one of our guest interviews that's coming up soon. A lot of people think of human resources or employment lawyers as like tools of the man and that they just exist to defend the company and to prove employees wrong. That was not the case where I worked, any place I've worked. Um, you know, we really came at it from the perspective of like, let's make sure the company didn't do anything here. And if they did, let's correct it and um and make sure it doesn't happen again. So I felt like I was part of the solution for the first time as a lawyer. Um, and so I I loved that and did that for a long time and then led a team that did those investigations. Um, and then there was uh there was a really honestly a moment in time where, and I can still remember it, I just kind of woke up one day and said, I'm not really growing in this role. I've kind of done what there is to do. I was always like you, looking for opportunities to make it more interesting. So I was holding retreats internally for ethics and compliance professionals, and I rolled out this psychological safety training program that went through the entire organization. And at some point, any idea I had that was interesting to me was outside of my lane. And I always got feedback that I needed to stay in my own lane. I was always like way far afield, so to speak. Um and because I really need novelty. I mean, it's a it's a strong need of mine. I know it's a strong need of yours. It's part of why the podcast is so appealing to me.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

I had been working with all of these executive coaches. I tried to help our leaders become more self-aware. And I really liked coaches. I liked their the premise of coaching is that if you're an adult, you have all the answers to every question you have inside you. And you just need somebody to help you pull those answers out. So your coach is a dynamic mirror, someone who reflects back at you the very best of you, so that you can access what you need and live the kind of life you want to. And that's super motivating to me. So I went to uh school to become an executive coach. And at the same time, I decided to become a yoga teacher, which is a whole other story. So I also teach yoga at Yoga 6, and I was doing all three of those things. I still had my corporate job, I was running my coaching business, and I was teaching yoga and raising two kids for a couple of years until I really couldn't keep it going. The coaching business got too busy, and I was just burning the midnight oil, working way too many hours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

I need to pause you. I need to pause you because here we are again. I just thought of you.

SPEAKER_04 11:42

Three jobs. Yeah, no, that's a good point. I hadn't really thought about that, but that is true. Um, that's been a that's been a uh my toxic trait, having too many jobs, I guess. Um, too many diverse, uh disparate interests. Um, so at so at that point I had to make a decision. And because I had sort of run out of ideas that were in my lane at the company, and I strongly felt like there weren't other roles that were coming my way anytime soon that would be of interest, um, I decided to go. So I walked away from my golden handcuffs and gave up my um, truthfully, really obscene salary. And um I focused full-time on coaching. So that was a year and a half ago that I that I made that move, a little bit more than a year and a half ago. And I have never looked back. It was the best decision I ever made. So now I teach four to six yoga classes a week, and I coach individuals, and I also lead peer coaching circles, which are a little bit of a foreign concept for most people. So I want to explain that a little bit. My coaching circles are only for women, and I lead four different circles right now. I have two circles for attorneys at different levels, and then I have a circle for HR professionals and a circle for diversity and inclusion professionals, and those two circles I lead with my coaching partner, Michelle Hafford. And then on top of that, I teach a course on internal politics for UCSD Division of Extended Studies. I teach it a few times a year, and I love doing that work. Uh, and then I'm on the board of Big Brothers Big Sisters and I'm on the board of the San Diego Lawyers Club. And uh all of that keeps me very busy still raising two kids, also. So the carpool life is real um still. So yeah, that's that's the whole kit and caboodle.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Did you ever think that you would be in the position that you are now?

SPEAKER_04 13:41

Never, never, and mostly because I didn't know myself for a long time. Um, I decided to be a lawyer when I was 12. So you'll probably remember there was a career fair in our middle school, and I'll never forget it. Susan Heinz's mom was a lawyer, and she was the only lawyer I knew. There were no lawyers in my family. We didn't have that kind of pedigree. There weren't even a lot of college graduates in my family. And I remember Susan's mom drove up to school in this red sports car. She was the bomb. She was the original boss bitch. She showed up in the red sports car. It was a Mitsubishi 3000 GT for those who are fanatics out there listening. And, you know, everyone asked her, Well, what do you do? What does a lawyer do? What even is that? And she explained that she went to court, she researched, she wrote, and she argued. And I was like, girl, that's for me, you know. So my whole life was a trajectory toward that goal of becoming a lawyer. I loved being a lawyer for most of the time that I was one. I had dips when things were rough, but overall, great career, could highly recommend it. I still could I still mentor lawyers today. I had two calls with mentees yesterday. I recommend that career to anyone who's interested. Um, but what I learned about myself over time is that I become interested in something and I kind of hyper focus on it, and I go down a rabbit hole and I give my all to it to the exclusion of everything else. There's there was no balance, right? I think I'm a real believer in human spirit and human potential. I think human beings are capable of tremendous growth and change and development. I also have come to believe that we're on our own journey and that any effort you're exerting to try and control another person in any way is a fool's errand and uh a total waste of your resources, a leaching of your very limited energy. So, um, one thing I work on with myself and with my clients and with my yoga students is compassionate detachment. Just putting the best you out in the world, be the best Elsa and release the consequences. Just let the rest go. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of you, let them be wrong about you. We will get a lot of criticism for this podcast, we will get a lot of accolades for this podcast. None of that's really relevant because you and I are here for the sole purpose of fulfilling a desire that we have to bring people's stories and our own stories to the broader population. So that's kind of how I conceive of myself now. And uh for a long time I thought happiness was the purpose of life, right? Like you're just looking for happiness, you just need to find happiness. I haven't thought that for a long time. Now I think my purpose and and in my view, the purpose of life is peace. It's learning who you are and learning to accept yourself until the point that you feel free and you're not burdened by the opinions of other people. The the events of the day are rough, you know. We're living in tough times. The news cycle's pretty um painful right now. And yet there's not a lot we can do about that. So I think it's more important than ever that we learn to just release um what's going on externally that we can't control, focus on what we can control, and and let that be enough.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

How do you kind of just make sense of I used to make this big salary and now I don't? And how is the emotional toll that it's taken? And how did you cut get through it?

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Yeah, you know, for me, it's not so much the money. Um, I I I definitely like nice things. You know, I have a shopping problem, but I'm not a very money-motivated person. What I what I am or what I what I was was a person who was very motivated, though, by social status. So I don't mean social ec socioeconomic status. I mean I worked hard to get that law degree. I worked until 2 a.m., sometimes seven nights a week, for years to be a good lawyer. And I think I really was a very good lawyer in a lot of ways. Um, walking away from that identity, I mean, I still keep my bar uh certification up because it's just a part of me that I conceive of myself still in some ways as a lawyer. And then in other ways, it feels like another lifetime, almost like I'm living a different life. Um, and that that that never was me. But then I'll be in a conversation with someone like the one we had when I interviewed you, and you started talking about something in one of your employers, and I said, Well, that's a labor code violation. And it's like, oh wow, it's still in there. It comes out. Um, so getting getting over that, that okay, you're not a lawyer anymore. People aren't going to just automatically respect you or loathe you, depending. That's right. Um, that that has been more the harder part. And it it happened before I left the company. I couldn't, I'm really risk-adverse and I couldn't give my notice until I got to the point that I was willing to release that. And I had, I was lucky enough to have the help of a coach, uh, Steve Sorkin, who coached me for several years and helped me work through that whole process.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

What do you find so fascinating about actually well, doing this podcast?

SPEAKER_04 19:23

Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about that a lot. Um and I think that the reason I find this podcast so motivating, enough that it I was willing to like put in the time and convince you to do it and all the things.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Um is because I I still at my heart of hearts love the stories. You know, I still love um getting to know the ins and outs of people, including the wacky stuff they've seen. And I wanna bring that those stories to light. So for other people's enjoyment. But I also am just a huge believer in the sanctity of work. You know, not work for work's sake, but work because what we all do is meaningful to someone in some way. And I think that it's very easy in our society to look down on certain jobs, maybe because they don't require a college degree, or maybe because they're what's called blue-collar work, you know, someone who works with their hands. I think every job is super interesting and valuable. And I think you can find a lot of joy in most jobs out there. Um, and that people are doing that. And I think we should tell their stories.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Why, why me, Dee?

SPEAKER_04 20:48

I knew you were gonna ask me this.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Why? Did I set this up good enough? It's it's kind of like the chosen boyfriend, you know. Why me?

SPEAKER_04 20:55

I was just thinking that. Why did you pick me? Do you still pick me?

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I know, I'm sure I would I break, but I want to know from you. Like, let's just see if we're aligned on this.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

You know, um, because I now have teenagers, I learn all the slang. Um, and they would call you and I pick me girls because we're those people who are out in the world, people pleasing probably, like, love me, love me. Um, thank God we found each other. We have a lot of love to give. We'll just give it to each other. Um yeah, so the reason I think that you're the perfect person to partner with on the podcast is that it's it's it's multifold. One is we've been friends for such a long time and we've spent so much time together. I mean, truthfully, I think I spend more time with you than I do my husband. Um, definitely talking. I talk to you way more than than I talk to my husband or even my kids. Um we have this sort of easy camaraderie that I think you and I aren't even really aware of. It's just been brought to my attention by others. So it makes it a really easy lift. I mean, we're on the same page, um, we're very candid with each other. We can just say, like, hey, I don't like that question. Let's not ask that, or I want to pivot. I feel like this is going in a bad direction. Um, or great, awesome, good job. Love that idea. I never would have come up with it. All things are possible in this relationship, and it isn't, we don't run the risk of losing each other. Um, but the other thing is that you're an incredibly energetic person. You get as excited as I do about things, and then you'll really follow through. You know, it's nothing's a flash in the pan with you. It's it you have incredible staying power and um just are are really reliable. If you say you're gonna do something, you freaking do it, or you tell me, hey, I can't, I can't do that it you know, in advance. Um, and you're really honest about what you need and what you can give and when you can give it. And I I just I think I just need that um for this partner.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

What do you think your superpower is as an interviewer, and how do you think it complements mine?

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Um, so I think my superpower, it's hard because I don't necessarily, I'm not necessarily aware of these things until someone else brings it to my attention. But what I've been told has helped me see it in myself. So one thing is that I'm disarming, that for whatever reason, and this has been true my whole life. Um, people sit down and just spill with me. And I I don't totally know why. Um, maybe I seem harmless. I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Same is the operative word. Same, harmless, and scene.

SPEAKER_04 23:48

Um uh and then um the other thing is because I have that training at 25 years of practicing law, I'm looking for stuff, you know, unconsciously. I'm looking for inconsistencies and irregularities and um cognitive dissonance and and all kinds of things. And I'm not doing it to prove anybody wrong, I'm doing it because it's interesting to me to understand why that is and to get to the bottom of it. And so that that comes out, I think. Um, and and your style is um, I think, more relaxed and um more of a flow. And I think you said you said it best, you said that you really meet a guest where they're at. And I I think that that's true. I think you match their energy. Um, and that too is really disarming. I mean, I've never met anybody who uh who you couldn't get through to, and I've definitely met people I can't get through to. So great.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Do you what kind of stories do you think our audience is hungry for now? Right now.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Gosh. Um throughout my career, people were really engaged when I shared dirty laundry. You know, they always wanted to hear like the crazy stories. And so I would give a lot of trainings, and it was a little tough because you could go down this rabbit hole, this time suck of just telling stories. And sometimes I think we all learn best from story, and I think that that's been proven by uh by neuropsychologists. But sometimes it's a it's distracting, you know, and it's it's pretty interest versus like a need to know. And uh, and I think that um what we're doing here is leveraging that people's desire to know all the crazy stuff that goes on. And you know, it's it's not just for entertainment. What if you hear a story that helps you understand something you're seeing in your workplace a little bit better in a way that allows you to protect yourself, for example, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Um what do you I love us? What do you help listeners walk away with after hearing these confessions?

SPEAKER_04 26:13

I hope that they I hope that they smile, you know. I hope we're putting smiles on people's faces. I think we've designed the podcast intentionally to be short, you know. We talk to our guests for a long time, but we edit it down to 20 minutes or so because we want you to be able to fit it in in your commute or your morning walk or while you drink your coffee or whatever. Um, we're not trying to boil the ocean. We're just trying to bring some awareness to you. And if you come away with something that helps you better understand yourself or another person in your life, or another perspective, if it opens, you know, your aperture, um, then I think we've won because that that's kind of my that's kind of my jam, you know. I want to help people see things in a different light. And uh I think we're doing that here.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

100%. Um, what's one one workplace confession that you wish somebody would submit?

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Oh um, you know, I don't know the specific confession. I I think um you took this question in the direction that I now feel like it should go in too, which is like who do who do we want to talk to? Like what kind of guest? Um we have an interview coming up. We're posting an interview we did um in the coming months uh with a female dominatrix. And I am so fascinated by roles like that. You know, what is it? We don't talk about these things. How'd you get into that? You know, what's great about it? What sucks about it? That's where the questions come from. Um, I also am interested in talking to people like, don't laugh. Don't judge me, don't laugh. Um, I would like to talk to the guy who comes around to all the restaurants and empties the grease traps. And I don't know why, but I feel like that guy, I say guy, it could be woman. Could be a woman. You know, when I'm headed to the yoga studio at the butt crack of dawn to teach the early class, I see those people driving around in their trucks. And I just think they've seen some stuff and I want to know what it is. You know, like what do they see? What do what does a trashman see? What does a fireman see? You know, I want to I want to talk to people who are in roles that I'm not as familiar with. And so um, if you're listening out there and you're in any of these roles, please reach out to us because we have questions for you.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Regarding any of the three jobs that you're doing currently, what is one thing that you would like to talk about or discuss or confess of maybe that our audience wouldn't know necessarily? You don't have to say which job it is, but I'm sure we could figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Does it have to be one of my current jobs? Or can we be any of your jobs? Okay. Any job I've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Any job you've ever had.

SPEAKER_04 29:08

Oh my gosh. Um, there are so many. I mean, we could we could literally do a whole episode on just the crazy stuff that I've seen over the years. Um, I mean, I I have investigated cases where an employee was raped by another employee. Thankfully it doesn't seem to happen often, but I have seen that. Um I investigated a case where an employee walked out to the parking lot and pulled her skirt up and pooped in the parking lot on video. You know, we have videos everywhere, cameras everywhere, we had cameras everywhere and then denied it, even though we had video. Oh my gosh. Yeah, just there are there are so many things that come up. Last two questions.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

What are you most excited or nervous about us launching this podcast together?

SPEAKER_04 30:02

Um until we interview the Dominatrix, I wasn't nervous about anything. Uh I I want to be able to bring the raw stories to people and unfiltered. I mean, we have to edit for length, but um, I think we'll probably get some blowback. I think we will probably get some blowback based on uh some of the comments that our guests make, their worldview, um, because of the polarized nature of our society right now, and also against us, because we too are people with worldviews, and um it's not really possible to totally mask that. We're not a news organization, you know. We're not we're not here for that. Uh, we're just shining a light on on the corners that people live in and that we live in. And uh yeah. Yeah, thank you. Seriously, Alf, for doing this with me. It's super fun. I think it's gonna give us a fun little look back when we're 90 and wonder what we did with our lives.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Those two crazy girls are up to this time.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

That's it for this week's confession. We've laughed, cringed, and maybe questioned our own career choices.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Big thanks to our anonymous guests for keeping it real and reminding us that behind every job title is a story worth telling.

SPEAKER_03 31:22

If you've got a workplace confession of your own, we're all ears. Hit us up at our email address. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and share. Your support helps us keep the secrets flowing. Until next time, keep your badge clipped, your coffee strong, and your stories wild.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

This is Workplace Confessions Behind Closed Doors.