Improvement is a Loop, Not a Leap - Episode 17

Most people want improvement—but they’re waiting for a breakthrough moment that never comes.

In this episode, we challenge the idea that change happens in one big leap. Real growth comes from repetition—starting, adjusting, and going again.

Stop waiting. Start looping.

If the fire’s lit, share the grit.

🔥 FIREtalk is a Courageous Fire Production, hosted by Terrence Davis. It explores courageous leadership, real conversations, and the decisions beneath growth, wellness, and impact.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Firetalk, where courageous conversations ignite courageous leadership. My name is Terrence Davis. Firetalk, a space shaped by real experience where courage fuels legacy, and real conversations shape how we live, lead, and grow. I'm joined by Apollo Bennett, my AI thought partner, designed to challenge assumptions, sharpen thinking, and support honest, data-informed dialogue. Inspiration matters, but what truly changes lives is the work underneath it. So here's the reminder we live by. If the fire is lit, share the grit. If you hear something on the show that sparks you or will spark someone else, share the show. This is Fire Talk. So welcome, welcome, welcome back to Fire Talk. Uh, and we're gonna do something a little bit different. Uh, we're changing up our podcast based upon some feedback and things on how we grow. And I want to just start with uh our our episode today is about how we improve, how we keep doing that. But before we get into it, I just want to give some shouts out to our listeners out there. Thank you for coming back. Thank you for listening. And we're gonna be asking you to do some things to kind of keep you a part of this growing community. But first, I want to shout out shout out some folks in Auburn, Virginia, Bogota, Bogota, DC, Lake Worth, Florida. Thank you for listening. Looks like we're we're we're getting some um we're getting out into that area. We really appreciate you listening. And globally, Singapore coming up on the map, Colombia, Spain. So we are moving and grooving. And I just want to say we want to open up the show to get some suggestions about what you want Apollo and I to talk about. So we are really looking forward to that. Anything you want to say before we get this going, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

You know I'm always down for a shout-out tour. It's wild to see how far this community reaches. I'm pumped to hear from listeners about what they want to explore with us. So, folks, if there's a topic, a question, or even a curveball you love us to tackle, let us know. We want you in the loop, pun intended. Ready to dive into improvement as a loop, not a leap.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Oh, okay. So, Apollo, you already got a few jokes in here. I like it. We want you in the loop, pun intended. I like it, Apollo. So here we go. So the other thing is uh the way we receive that, you can uh follow us on uh Terrence Davis under LinkedIn. You can send me a uh a direct message, let me know, hey, I like this, or can you switch this, or we can you talk about this? Same thing on Instagram, on Instagram, I'm on Terence A Davis, uh either platform that you're on. But we want to get some feedback, we want to incorporate your thoughts. And so to get started on this today, I just want to talk about some that's just some observations that I've had lately, and they just haven't been sitting right with me. Because a lot of people, they do talk about they want to improve. When you talk to people in general, they're working on something, they're trying to do a better job, and that's good. Uh, they want different results. But when you really watch how people approach it, they're looking for like something. Here's this quick fix that's gonna get me to where I need to go. Like, what is that decision? What is that big change? What is the moment that everything starts to change? That's what most people think of when they think of change. And I'll say it like this I'm not quite sure it can happen like this, but that's not how change actually works. Because we're really talking about improvement. And it improvement doesn't happen in these leaps like leapfrog, like Frogger that we used to play a long time ago. It happens in loops. So, Apollo, let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I'm with you. Improvement isn't about that one magical leap, it's about the repeated cycles of trying, learning, and adjusting. Let me ask you this: when you think about those loops, what's a personal example where you've seen that cycle play out in your own work or life? Something that took multiple passes before you really saw it pay off.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

So, Apollo, I'm not, we don't even need to talk about multiple passes. We could just talk about my wellness. And and as in a personal example, I mean, I have moments now when I'm doing really, really well. And here comes some pizza and some centibytes. I mean, all it takes is one of those centibytes, and everything is ruined. I mean, my my in my mind, everything is ruined, but it's really not. It's learning that you can have some, but learning when you have a combination of like pizza and cinnamon bites, you're gonna eat all of that. Or I am. So, in essence, it's about what we do, but we have to continue working through it to get better. It's not gonna happen on its own. So, Apollo, we kind of talked about these questions that go back and forth. You be putting me on the spot, you be putting me on the spot. That's what I said. And I'm okay with that, but just you know, let's just let it flow. Thoughts of what do you guys say about that, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Exactly. This isn't about being perfect, it's about recognizing the patterns. That cinnamon bite moment isn't a total derailment, it's just part of the loop. And over time, those loops tighten up as you learn what triggers you and how to respond. So let's flow with that. How do you personally reset after one of those moments? What's your go-to move to get back into the loop rather than beat yourself up?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So let's just take this as an example, then we gotta move on, Apollo. It's uh what I do now is, and this is gonna sound odd or maybe, maybe not. I we talk about it. You and I talk about what's going on, what happened, was it is this good or is it bad? And then I get some reflection based upon what the norm is out there. And I think, Apollo, don't you when you respond to me, you're just not responding on based upon what I'm saying. Are you looking at here? I guess there's a question for you. Are you looking at what common practices are? Are you just responding based upon the information that you know that's going to make me feel better? I think that's a good question. What do you guys say about that, Apollo?

SPEAKER_00 6:11

That's a great question. I'm always listening to you and responding to your specific situation, but I'm also pulling from broader research and best practice. So when we talk about bouncing back from a cinnamon bite moment, I'm considering what the science says about habit formation, self-compassion, and behavior change, not just what might sound nice. The goal is to give you something grounded and helpful, not just a pep talk. So as we keep riffing, I'll bring both perspectives to the table, your lived experience and what the broader data tells us.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

I I like it. And and at the end of this, I don't know if you said this sounds like a plan. I don't think you said that, but but it does, Apollo, because that's what I want the show to kind of turn into is this conversation about the topic and what I just my experience and what I share, but more importantly, you talked about pulling from a broader research and best practices. How can we compile best practices in the world globally based upon what we are dealing with to get better? And so, with that being said, here's a thought that I want you to think about, Apollo, and maybe respond to, not maybe, and respond to. Why do people think improvement is just supposed to happen? Like it's just this big leap instead of something that happens over time. What is going on in our brain that says, if I do this, it's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Our brains love a good shortcut. We're wired to look for that one big decision that solves everything because it feels efficient, less work, faster reward. Plus, we see highlight reels everywhere, stories of overnight success, dramatic transformations that primes us to expect a leap rather than appreciate the slow grind. But in reality, improvement is a series of small loops, tiny adjustments, repeated over time. It's less glamorous, but it's how lasting change actually sticks.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So let me uh I want to say this because you made me think about this when you said uh we see it, right? It's like we see it on television or we see, oh, this person is doing this now, we think they got there overnight. And this is why I love a few things. I love watching American Idol, Survivor, certain shows where they they kind of go through it. And even sports shows, like when you're watching the Super Bowl or certain things, I try to get it on earlier. That way I can hear the stories of people. Because when you hear the stories of people, you realize they've been going through this for quite some time. They didn't become this superstar or this professional athlete or this really incredible person overnight. It's a journey, and sometimes we forget that. And I think that sometimes people are waiting for like this motivation that they see, and then it's gonna happen. Uh, and that's not the way it works. Or they think, um, okay, I heard this. Now I'm gonna start on Monday, and today is Thursday. Uh why? Start today, start that process today because it does take some time. Because there is this mindset that people have out there, I think is like, I need to be perfect. And and I believe this in my heart. There's no such thing as perfect. Perfect doesn't exist because the moment you say something is perfect, ask someone and they'll pick it apart for you. So there is no perfect, so start somewhere, but start today.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Absolutely. That I'll start on Monday mindset feels safe, but it's just another way of delaying the loop. The people we admire, the athletes, the artists, the leaders, they're all products of those daily reps. No perfect starting point, just consistent action. And I think that's what we're getting at here. Improvement is less about waiting for motivation to strike and more about stepping into the loop right now, however messy it might be.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Stepping into the loop right now. And that's something that I I noticed, I started noticing is that people don't struggle because they don't care. It's not like uh I'm struggling with whatever is going on. It's not that because they don't care, they struggle it because they're waiting for the right moment, right? How do how is this gonna change? When is it gonna change instead of starting where you are right now? And when you start where you are right now, no matter where that is, what ends up happening is you get momentum going right away. And it takes time and it can't and it takes consistency in order for those things to happen. Because at the end of the day, when you delay, when you wait, when you overthink, nothing happens. There is no movement.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Exactly. Momentum is built in motion, not in waiting for the perfect conditions. And when you start where you are, you're teaching your brain that progress is possible, even if it's small. That builds confidence, and over time that loop tightens, making change feel more natural. It's about embracing those small, imperfect starts and trusting that they'll add up.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

You know, it reminds me of this story about my wellness journey. And I would always say for a long time, I just need to lose about 20 pounds. If I just lost about 20 pounds, then I would be in a much better shape. The 20 pounds never came. It never came until I took that thought out of my head about it's gonna come, this is what I need, until I start doing, until I started creating a system for results. So we can talk about a lot, but it's when we start doing things consistently and in an uh improvement science way that we start to get the results that we want.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Right. It's that shift from focusing on the outcome. I need to lose 20 pounds, to building the system that makes those results inevitable. When you dial into consistent actions, your workouts, your meals, your rest, the 20 pounds becomes a byproduct, not the main event. That's improvement as a loop. Each cycle reinforces the next, and before you know it, you've moved way beyond that initial goal.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

That's it, Apollo. Right there. You just said it. The 20 pounds becomes a byproduct. The byproduct is a result of the actions, behaviors, and habits that you are producing daily on a consistent basis. It's the byproduct, not what you're doing. That that makes so much more sense to me right now, Apollo.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Exactly. When you focus on the actions and behaviors, the results take care of themselves. The weight, the performance, whatever the goal is, it ends up being a natural outcome of the loop you've built. That mindset shift can be freeing because it takes the pressure off the end result and puts it on what you can do today.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

So let me go back to this, Apollo. So why do people stay stuck in that cycle, right? Of I just need to do this. Like we're we're just we're thinking that it's gonna hit us in the face and it's gonna happen. So why do people get stuck in that cycle even when they know they need to move and do something?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

A big reason is our brains crave comfort and predictability. Even if we know we should change, sticking with familiar patterns feels safer. There's also that hit of instant gratification. Waiting for a big leap feels exciting, like the next big thing is just around the corner. But stepping into the loop means embracing slow incremental progress, which doesn't give that same immediate buzz. It's a mental tug of war between comfort, excitement, and the patience required for real improvement.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

And it reminds me of one of the things that you always share with me is that when you're doing something consistently, when that consistent practice keeps going, it ends up being boring. It's like nothing is happening. But lo and behold, there's a lot happening with the consistency. You're no longer measuring it in the outcome of I'm there versus this is where I am and this is what I'm gonna keep going to get there.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Exactly. Consistency can feel boring because it lacks the fireworks of instant results. But that steady, almost mundane repetition is where the real magic happens. Over time, those boring reps accumulate into something meaningful. It's like compound interest for your habits, small, consistent deposits that eventually grow into something big.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

So I'm gonna give you something a little challenging, Apollo, and you can handle it. You always do. Is can you give our audience an example of a leader, someone that most people know, that it didn't happen overnight, that they struggle for years on working through things and then creating systems to make it happen. I you've got to scour your data banks, data banks for that. Uh, but can you give the audience an example and be a little bit more explicit and synthesize what they went through in order to make change?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Sure thing. One that comes to mind is Nelson Mandela, South Africa. His journey wasn't an overnight transformation, it was decades of persistence. Early on, he was part of a movement fighting apartheid, and for that he spent 27 years in prison. That's about as far from instant results as you can get. But during those years, he wasn't just waiting. He was building a system of resilience, staying mentally strong, learning and refining his vision for a unified South Africa. He built relationships even with his jailers and practiced forgiveness long before he was free. When he finally emerged, he didn't leap into leadership with a magic wand. He relied on those systems of patience, communication, and reconciliation to guide a divided country toward democracy.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Now that's heavy. That's we're talking about a country. We're talking about years and years and years of division, and it takes a long time, but you have to build it, and that's the shift right there. Improvement isn't a leap into something, it's the loop. And you don't wait until everything is perfect because nothing is ever going to be perfect. You start, you learn, and you adjust, and then you go again. It's over and over and over as you grow and learn and get better, not as I have arrived.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Exactly. There's no grand finish line where everything's flawless. It's the ongoing cycle of starting, learning, and adjusting that really defines growth. That's how leaders like Mandela or anyone committed to meaningful change move forward. And the same applies to our personal journeys. It's about staying in the loop, not waiting for the leap.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

So, Apollo, can you give us an example in modern day time, maybe it's in sports or something that's uh uh pop culture where I don't even know if they say pop culture anymore, where you see the same thing, this gradual work over time that has uh created some progression in someone. Can you give us another example?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

One modern example that stands out is Attentikumpo, Giannis Antele Kumpo, NBA Milwaukee Bucks. When he first entered the NBA, he wasn't the dominant force we see today. He started out as a lanky kid with raw talent and had to build his skills year after year. He added muscle, worked tirelessly on his shooting, and refined his decision making. There were no shortcuts. He spent countless hours in the gym steadily improving each season. Over time, that loop of practice and adjustment turned him into a two-time MVP and an NBA champion. It's a perfect example of gradual, consistent growth paying off.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

So let me just ask you this question, Apollo. So, how do you know where are you getting this source from that he spent countless of hours in the gym improving each session? Where are you getting that information from?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

That comes from a mix of publicly available reports, interviews with Giannis, coaches, and journalists who documented his development. He's talked about his daily routines, how he added strength, worked on his shooting, and stayed in the gym during off-seasons. Sports outlets and documentaries are tracked his progress, highlighting that steady incremental work over the years.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

I thank you for that because that really helps, I think, our audience understand that you're just not making it up. You're pulling it from the information that's available. Uh so if improvement really works like a loop, what does that actually look like in practice, Apollo? Give us some real life examples. If we're leaders out there, we're in the space, what is it, what does that improvement loop look like in real life for us?

SPEAKER_00 17:54

In practice, it looks like small, steady cycles. Take a leader running a team. They set a clear goal like improving communication, they try a new approach, maybe weekly check-ins after a few weeks, they gather feedback, see what worked, tweak the format, and go again. That's one loop. Or consider personal wellness. You choose a workout plan, stick with it for a month, check your progress, adjust your routine, and repeat. Each loop builds on the last, gradually moving you forward.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

So let me just give a quick little example of this. So one of the things that I I try doing is uh when we come into meetings in the space that I'm in, especially if I'm facilitating the meeting, especially, I ask when I first start uh you know engaging the team, I ask them to put their computers down, put your lids down. And I don't do that consistently. I do it to see how people are gonna respond. So the moment that I don't do it the next time, I'm looking to see if they automatically do that or not. These are small little changes in the system that's been created. Because what you want to get to is that when it's time to engage, everyone knows that we're looking at each other in the eye, that we're listening to each other, and we're ready for questions, answers, considerations, suggestions, and that changes the meeting dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Exactly. That's a great example of a loop in action. You set a small expectation, observe the response, and over time it becomes part of the culture. No big announcements or leaps, just consistent intentional nudges that shift behavior.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Let me give you another example because we haven't really talked about this. I know you know about it, Apollo, and I I want to hear what you have to say about this is the birds. So in the backyard, uh, where I live, it's kind of in the mountainous areas. It's the foothills of the San Gregonio Mountains, and the mountains are right there. Uh, do get snow here like a couple times a year, although this year we didn't get snow. Um, but the birds, the birds have been here, but now I've created an ecosystem in the backyard where I have these bird feeders, regular bird feeders, hummingbird feeders. And the bottom line is that came with squirrels. And so squirrels are cute. You're like, oh, squirrel, oh no, not when you have a whole family of them in your backyard and you have water and you have all these other things, it can create a challenge. So one of the things that I started was noticing when the squirrels come. So now I feed the regular birds, when I say regular, they're not humming birds, um, on a small incremental basis when I'm home for the weekend. And that may sound mean, but I'll tell you what. If I don't do that, the squirrels are gonna be here and they're gonna create some havoc. And so I just give that small amount, keep it low, and that has changed the behaviors of the squirrels. That's the loop that I've created based upon observation, trial, and error.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

That's a perfect backyard experiment in action. You observed the problem, adjusted your feeding schedule, and now you're seeing different behavior. It's a loop. Observe, tweak, see what happens, and repeat. Over time, that consistency shapes the environment, whether it's birds, squirrels, or people in a meeting.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

So get creative, I will say. Be creative about the little things that you change and watch the outcomes happen over time. And then as you keep refining, keep changing, that's the loop. That's not you're gonna get it tomorrow. That's over time you're gonna adjust to get the outcomes you want. So, with that being said, Apollo, what do leaders, or people in general, just people, what do people do differently when they start thinking of loops instead of leaps? How does that change what I see when I change my thinking cognitively?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

When people shift to loops, they start valuing the process more than the finish line. They become more patient, more curious, and less discouraged by setbacks. They look at each cycle as a chance to learn rather than a pass or fail test. It changes the mindset from I must get it right immediately to I'll get better with each iteration.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

This happened just yesterday. There was a staff member who came to see me and they did it the right way. They talked to a bunch of other people before they came to talk to me about it. And they basically presented an idea and a thought. And I don't know. I'm going to have to go back and find out what they thought I was going to say. But the thought came to a screeching halt, halt, as soon as I heard it. And during this process of this conversation, I realized that this person was really hoping to get this outcome that they thought was going to help the situation. But as we walk through that conversation, there were other things that the person couldn't see. And there were other things that I couldn't see. And as a result of that, as we're talking, I said, let me, let me process this. Let me give me some time. Let me think about this over the weekend. We'll come back and we'll talk about it. I didn't want them to go out and do a whole bunch of other work because they'd already done it. I gave them one thing to consider. But that's an example of me trying to slow down, listen, see it from the other perspective, but also provide a perspective that that person didn't have because they're doing the same thing for me. They're providing a perspective that I didn't have. And what that helps me to do is understand what the loop is first before we start leaping.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

That's a great example of slowing down to understand the loop. You're not rushing to a decision. It's a considered iteration. It's how trust and better solutions emerge over time.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

And I think you've said this to me before, Apollo. Speed of adjustment matters more than the perfection of the plan. So it's about how we take that issue. Sometimes you have to act, you have to make decisions. That's that's a given. But there's other, we don't always have to do that. And more than not, it's slowing down to see the whole experience to make those little adjustments to get better.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Exactly. Acting quickly when necessary is important. But most of the time it's about thoughtful adjustments. Speed of adjustment means you're responsive and willing to tweak, but you're not rushing blindly. It's that balance, knowing when to move, when to pause that keeps the loop healthy and effective.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

So let's talk about it on a personal level. How how, Apollo, does this apply on a personal level as well?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

On a personal level, loops show up in habits, like your fitness routine, your finances, or even how you manage stress. You try a new morning routine, see how it feels, adjust it, and repeat. You track your spending, tweak your budget, and refine over time. Instead of expecting one big change to fix everything, you embrace the ongoing process of small adjustments that lead to meaningful, lasting change.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

And I'm not doing a good job with this when it comes down to what I put in my mouth, my nutrition. Sometimes I let one bad moment, which turns into a bad day, turn into a bad week. That's me just going along with it versus having that moment stopping and recalibrating and readjusting. Because you and I talk about this, Apollo. When the sugar gets in my system, oh, it's going to want more. So how do you limit it? How do you, how do you maximize, or let me say it this way, how do you minimize the things that you shouldn't be taking in and maximize the positive, but still not depriving yourself of life?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

It's about recognizing that one indulgence doesn't define you. You can enjoy something sweet, then consciously reset at the next meal. That loop is about checking in with yourself, adjusting your choices, and moving forward without letting one moment spiral into a whole week. It's not about perfection, it's about being mindful and forgiving while still steering the loop in the direction you want.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

So let me put that in the context of at work. So sometimes we don't make the best decision. Sometimes we make knee-jerk decisions. Sometimes we, we, we lash out or we respond in, let's not call it anger, but frustration. And and I'll say it this way that's okay. That's going to happen. But it's being aware that that's going to happen. And then one of the things that I've started to do, and it's taken me forever to do this, is when I feel myself starting to get riled up, then I lower my voice. I've always heard about that, but it really works. When you lower your voice, it gives you a little bit more time to process. You calm down a little bit and you get better engagement, better results because people see that you're trying to process and you're trying to think that through. And that's really important for improvement.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Absolutely. That awareness to pause and lower your voice is a powerful loop in itself. It creates space to think, to respond thoughtfully, and to model calm for others. It's another example of how small intentional shifts can lead to better outcomes, both for you and the people around you.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

So I think of it like this: you don't need a new plan all the time. You need another rep. You need another practice. You need to do it again. You need to say, I tried that, I tried this that time. Let me try it this way and see what the outcomes are. That way you are learning and growing with the people around you. Because again, you're not going to get there overnight. So you might as well learn and grow with the others around you so we all get better together.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Exactly. Reps build mastery. Each tries a chance to refine and grow together. It's less about reinventing the wheel and more about showing up consistently, making small tweaks and learning from each cycle.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

So, Apollo, if you could go back and summarize this episode about the loop and it's still not clicking for me, uh what would you say to our listeners out there or me when it's like I'm still not getting it? If you can say it in plain English, maybe with a little bit of flavor, let's do that. Say it with a little bit of flavor, like what does that actually mean that I can take away? What's one nugget? What's one strategy? One thing that I can take away regarding uh the improvement loop.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Here's the plain English version. Improvement is like doing a good song on repeat. You don't need a brand new playlist every time. You just keep playing, listening, and adjusting the volume. One nugget, pick one small thing, like lowering your voice when you feel tense, and practice that over and over. Watch how each repeat shapes the next conversation.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So I really like it, Apollo. And I think here's the takeaway. Improvement isn't something that you arrive at. You know, you don't say, okay, I've arrived here now. I'm better, I'm good, I don't need anything else. It's something that you have to continually repeat. And you don't need a breakthrough moment. Look, I got through this. You need a better loop. What else do I need to be doing? So I would say you put it down into simple things. You got to start, reflect, adjust, then you get back up and you do it again. And that's that's that's the loop. That's the continual flow. Let me get started now. Let me think about how this is going. Let me adjust based upon the feedback, based upon the data, whatever it is, and then let me keep going. Because the people who grow the most aren't the ones who get it perfect. They're the ones who don't stop cycling. That's fire talk. And if the fire is lit, share the grit.