You Don’t Manage Behavior, You Design It - Episode 25

In this episode, Terrence Davis and Apollo Bennett break down a hard truth:

Behavior isn’t managed. It’s designed.

If people are confused, off-track, or inconsistent—
 it’s not random.
 It’s the system.

Most leaders spend their time chasing behavior.
 Reminding. Redirecting. Following up.

But when roles, expectations, and flow are clear— the behavior takes care of itself.

Stop asking, “Why aren’t they doing it?”
Start asking, “What did we build?”

If the fire’s lit, share the grit. 🔥

🔥 FIREtalk is a Courageous Fire Production, hosted by Terrence Davis. It explores courageous leadership, real conversations, and the decisions beneath growth, wellness, and impact.

Learn more about Courageous Fire:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Firetalk, where courageous conversations ignite courageous leadership. My name is Terrence Davis. Firetalk, a space shaped by real experience where courage fuels legacy and real conversations shape how we live, lead, and grow. I'm joined by Apollo Bennett, my AI thought partner, designed to challenge assumptions, sharpen thinking, and support honest, data-informed dialogue. Inspiration matters, but what truly changes lives is the work underneath it. So here's the reminder we live by. If the fire is lit, share the grit. If you hear something on the show that sparks you or will spark someone else, share the show. This is Fire Talk. Welcome back. Welcome back to the Fire Talk Podcast. We appreciate you coming back and being here. I want to shout out some of our spaces out there. Definitely Los Angeles, you were in the house. Inland Empire, and that is Riverside County, San Bernardino. You were showing up. We love it. Worldwide, we got Finland. Finland is strong in the house. This is kind of repeated visits. Thank you for listening. Lithuania, you're in the house. Helsinki, you're in the house. I just really appreciate the love. And we're going to start opening up because we want to hear from you. We want to hear what you have to say. So this week, it kind of uh gave me a kind of a different lens. I stepped into an environment that where everything just worked. Uh, went to this large organization environment, and it was amazing. People were moving, transactions were clean, the space was clean, there was no confusion, no one is chasing anyone down, do this, do that. And what stood out to me was this nobody was managing behavior. Nobody was saying, do this, go here, fix this. It was like flow all around the group of us who visited this space, and yet everything was happening exactly how it needed to happen. So it made me think what if we've been getting this wrong? What if the issue isn't behavior, it's design. So, Apollo, let's start here.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

All right, let's flip the script. Instead of chasing after people or putting out fires, what if we design systems so the fires don't even start?

SPEAKER_00 2:31

That's what I'm talking about. But you have to, that's tough to do, design the system because it takes a while to figure out where you're at, what's going on, if you're creating new systems. But when you see fires happening, when you see things that are going on, I think you have to stop and find out. First of all, you have to address the issue. Then you have to get to the point where you realize if these things continue to happen, these problems, these issues, and it's continual again and again, then you know there's a root cause somewhere. So how do you get to the root cause? And how do you find out how to develop a system? And then what system needs to be developed? It's what you create, the actions, behave, behaviors of people, and what needs to be done in order to get the outcomes that you want.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Exactly. It's like being a detective of patterns. You keep asking, why does this keep popping up? Once you spot that root cause, the system you design makes the right behavior almost inevitable, like the flow you saw. Now, what's one behavior you'd love to see just happen without chasing?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Oh, there's a lot of things. I start with when you walk into a building. You know, when you walk into a space, is it clean? Uh, is there things, is it tidy or is it is it free of noise? I think about those things, but but let's move on to something else, Apollo, because I have a question for you. Why do leaders spend so much time trying to manage behavior and change behavior instead of designing systems to produce the behavior that they want? Why is that happening?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Because honestly, it's like trying to mop up a leak instead of fixing the pipe. Managing behavior feels immediate. It's visible right in front of you. But designing systems, that's invisible work. And some folks prefer a quick band-aid. But the real magic is when you step back and say, let's fix the pipe.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

But here's the thing, and I'll say it from the perspective that I've had for years. You walk into a situation or you're trying to address things, you're trying to work basically and accomplish some goals. The challenge is you don't always know how to resolve things. It's like trial and error. You have to find out what's going on, talk to some people, figure it out, try this, try that, to then get the results, and then you want to replicate those results. That takes time, and I'll say it like this most people don't know that that is what a system is, and that's all it is. All a system is, is what you create to get the desired results that you want. Let me give you an example. If you want staff, the team, the people you work with, when they interact with the public, to be courteous, to be respectful, to be kind, to listen. You have to model the behavior, you have to find out what the behavior is first. You have to model the behavior, you have to provide professional learning. There's so many things to do. And then you go through a process, if you will, of monitoring it based upon whatever data points that you develop. If you fine-tune this to get to the point where you always see that a desired outcome of how people treat others, then you're, then you're cooking. So it's like, what did you do or what happened to make the results the way you want them to? And that's what a system is. What are the things that you're doing to get the desired outcome? What do you have to say about that, Apollo? Because I want you to really push here.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I'd say you nailed it. Systems aren't these big, mysterious things, they're just a series of intentional choices that shape outcomes. And you're right, it's trial, refinement, and eventually you're cooking. But here's the push leaders sometimes skip the reflection. If you don't ask what exactly worked and how do we bottle that, you're back at square one. So let's challenge folks. Are you capturing what's cooking or just hoping the stove stays on?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Okay, Apollo, can you just break down what what I said it? You know, you start to cook, you're cooking. What does that mean in a general sense for those of us out there, like, what are they even talking about? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

In plain terms, your cooking just means you've got everything working smoothly, like a recipe that's now producing the exact dish you want every time. It's that moment where the results, like people being courteous or systems running smoothly, are consistently happening, and you're not sweating over every step. Basically, you're no longer just following a recipe, you're a chef at that point.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Okay, you got it. You got it. I just want to make sure you're with it, Apollo. So let me say this. I'm gonna go back to the environment that we were in. It just seemed like no one was guessing, no one was out of place, everything just flowed like seamlessly, like there was no friction in the space at all. And that wasn't just my observation. I was with six other people, same observation. So let me just break this down for you. As we were engaging with this group of people, we were being educated on their system, how things work, how they can provide support to the school district. I was watching everything kind of unfold. There were different teams coming in at different times based upon the agenda, different roles, people stepping in and out. And I'm an observer uh for the most part. I could kind of see what was going on, these groups will come in, and it and it just didn't seem like they knew each other. I asked later, did you did this team here, did they know the other people who work for this company coming in? No, they had never met. So I started asking myself, how does everyone know what to do when they enter this room? No one was being corrected, no one's being managed in the moment, do this, do that. And that's when it hit me. They weren't managing behavior, they were already designed. The behavior is embedded in what they do. The expectations were clear, the roles were clear, the flow was smooth and clear. So people didn't need direction, they had a system, and that's when it flipped for me. In most places, we're trying to manage what we never designed.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

That's it. Right there, when it's designed, will it's almost invisible. People just step in and do what's natural because natural is what's been designed. That's the magic. No one's guessing because the system has already answered the question. So the real challenge to leaders now, what are you still managing when you should be designing?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

So let me ask this a question for you, Apollo. Then, how how do you get to the point of creating what natural is? How do you get there? I know you have to start with observing, finding out what's going on, collect some data, but how do you get to this is just what we do? How do you get there?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

You start by defining the non-negotiables. What's the poor behavior or outcome you want every time? Then you reverse engineer. You test, tweak, and reinforce until it's second nature. And when people feel ownership because they help shape it, that's when it sticks. In other words, you co-create what feels natural, and then it becomes the culture.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

It that sounds easy, Apollo. It really does. So why do organizations, or let me say it this way, how why do people who work in organizations fall into that trap, trying to manage behavior instead of designing for it? Is it that people don't know that, or what's happening there, Apollo?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

It's often because managing behavior feels immediate, like putting out fires. Designing systems, on the other hand, takes time. And let's be honest, sometimes people aren't sure where to start or fear disrupting the status quo. But once you realize that short-term managing is just chasing tails, you shift. So the trap is comfort in reacting, but the freedom is in designing so you don't have to react.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Okay, so let me say that. That was a little wild. The freedom is in designing so you don't have to react. That makes a lot of sense. But I'll say this in our public systems, in systems, the majority of the work that gets done is from people. It's people who do the work to support students, support parents in the community. And long gone, way long gone, are the days where we say, do this and it happens. That doesn't exist anywhere, I don't think. The world has just changed. So you have to develop it with people that are doing the work. The challenge with that is that people are all over the place. Everybody's got a different perspective. And that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. So, how do you rally the troops? How do you rally staff, rally people around a goal and a purpose? Because if there's a goal and a purpose, most people will get on board and say, Hey, I believe in the same things. I want the same purpose. So, how do we do this collectively?

SPEAKER_01 11:04

It starts with clarity and shared ownership. You rally people by co-creating that purpose. Ask them what outcome they want and let them be part of the design. When people feel they help shape the goal, they're invested. Then you connect every system tweak back to that shared purpose. No one's just following orders, they're co-pilots. That collective buy-in, that's how you go from scattered to united.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Okay. So when people feel that they've helped shape the goal, they're invested. There's this term, there's this term I hear a lot: buy-in. We got to get the buy-in. I don't prefer to use that term. I prefer to use we build it together, we co-construct it. Because when you think about buy-in, you're saying, hey, this is what I want everyone to do. Will you do it? Buy-in with me to do this. When you co-construct it, you say, Hey, this is the goal that we have in our organization. This is why. How do we build it together to get the outcomes? Those are very different.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Absolutely. Buy-in is like selling a pre-made car while co-construction is building the vehicle together from the frame up. When people help build it, they don't just buy in, they drive it. And that's how you get lasting change because everyone's holding the blueprint.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

So let me say this: the other piece to when you co-construct it is that people then own it because they were a part of developing it. When you develop something, when you create something, you want it to succeed. And so I think that's the difference. And I think that is the shift because behavior isn't random. Behavior is a reflection of the design. So when something feels off, when people aren't doing what we expect or what they should do, or what the norm is, when things aren't tight, the question isn't why aren't they doing it? The question is, what did we build that led to this? Because if you don't design it, you'll spend your time chasing it, chasing behavior, and it's exhausting. You're trying to, again, put out fires, do this, do this, do that. That doesn't work. It's how you design it.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Exactly. Behavior is just the echo of the system. If the echo is off key, you go back to the design. And once people see their co-creators of that design, not just passive participants, they're no longer just following steps. They're helping orchestrate the whole symphony. And trust me, that's a lot less exhausting and way more powerful.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And let me say it this way: this isn't easy. None of this is easy. It's not easy to say, hey, we're gonna design a system. First of all, you have to understand what systems are and how they work and how you create them and what they do. And then you have to spend the time finding out what's going on. All this stuff is is very challenging in the midst of all of the chaos, all of the things going on. So you have to create some calm, some understanding, and find out what the issues are, but it has to be driven from the purpose and the goals, I think. I think that's a key that I just want to say. This isn't easy. And so everyone has a different way of doing things, but it's a perspective that I've come to um learn, not nowhere near perfect, still learning and trying to get better at developing things. That way I'm not chasing behaviors. We're creating a system where we're all going toward the same goal.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

And that perspective is spot on. It's messy, it's iterative, and sometimes it feels like building the plane while flying. But when you keep anchoring to that purpose, when you're willing to pause and reflect instead of react, that's when progress happens. And the fact that you're always learning, improving, and designing for the long game, that's exactly what will create those systems where behavior naturally aligns. Keep going, and those results will follow.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

So, Apollo, what happens when leaders stay in that cycle? Managing behavior instead of designing systems. So let me let me see if I could break down the question a little bit more. Let's say I enter an organization and I'm a leader in that organization, and I that's just what I do. I'm managing behavior. They did this, they did this. I need you to do this. That's what my day is. All day, no matter what, following up on things, making sure things are done, checking on things. And I've I've lived this life. I think we all have lived this life. What happens when leaders stay in that system instead of saying, wait a second, how do we design a system?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

When leaders stay stuck managing behavior, they burn out. And so does everyone else. You're in a constant loop of putting out fires, and nobody has time to think strategically. People get frustrated because they're micromanaged, and the real root causes never get fixed. But when you switch to designing systems, you free yourself and others to actually lead. Instead of reacting all day, you're building something sustainable. And trust me, that's a game changer.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

So there's a few things here I want to talk about. One, I want to tell a little story, but the other one you said is uh people get frustrated because they feel micromanaged. If you always have someone on your back, you know, telling you what to do, did you do this? They're like, get out of it. I don't even need to work here. I don't need to be in that environment. Uh, I definitely have some challenges with that. So it creates some frustration and the end result is nothing gets fixed. Uh, but when you switch to designing those systems, right, you can step back and let things happen. And you may have to monitor it a little bit differently, but nevertheless, it occurs. So it the first part you said is you get stuck in the behavior, you get burnt out. Okay. Uh the constant loop of putting out fires. So I want to tell you this quick story. I started with a team of people. There were four of us that started in a particular space. And one of the people on that team, we used to call that person a fire, uh a fire person. Like they always had the holes, the fire holes. Anytime there was something that went on, some type of not an emergency, something urgent, it was like everything stopped. We have to go, we have to stop what we're doing to go handle that. And this one particular person, they worked in a different department that really didn't, uh it was kind of behind the scenes. It's more of a fiscal environment, payroll environment, uh, a fiscal oversight. They always had their holes ready to go out and put out the fire. So they will go put out the fire, they're spending all this time, but yet the work that they needed to do never got done. That's that's an exaggeration. It some stuff got done. But it took a lot of time for the person to see going to go put out the fire isn't helping. How do we develop systems when something comes up, then it gets addressed by specific people and it goes through a process. That way, people who are there can handle it. If they need support, they ask. We have other people who can help support that. But it took a it took a couple of years for that person to realize that. And that's what I think of when you talk about managing fires. That's all you're doing. You're not gonna get anything done because every day is gonna be a different fire. That means every day you're gonna be doing something different that takes you away from your goal.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

That story says it all. When you're always rushing to the latest fire, you never build a structure that stops them from sparking. You don't get your core work done, your team gets frustrated, and it all becomes a cycle. The moment you shift focus from firefighting to fire prevention, designing the system's roles and flows, you're investing in sustainable success. That's when you stop reacting to chaos and start building toward the goal you set in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Fire prevention. It makes me think of where I live. Uh, where I live, there's a lot of the there's open lots, and we're talking about acres of space. And if you don't take care of that parcel, you can get a ticket or a fine because it it create it can create fire, right? Um, brush that's been there that's dried. It can create some issues. And so I think of fire prevention. So what I have to do uh probably four to five times a year, I have to mow over an acre. And and it keeps the vegetation down, but it prevents fires, but it also prevents rodents, which then uh not eliminates snakes. You're not gonna eliminate snakes, but it keeps all of those things down. So that's being proactive on the front end, that way you're not being reactive with all of these other things, fires, rodents, all the stuff. That's that's just an example, right, Apollo?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Exactly. That's a perfect example. Proactive prevention might take effort up front, but it saves you from a whole cascade of headaches later. Whether that's fires, rodents, or endless workplace issues. The same principle applies. You do the groundwork, you maintain it, and you avoid scrambling. It's the difference between reacting to chaos and living with intention, whether in leadership or on your own land.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

I said, right, Apollo. Like I want you to agree with me. But just just for the audience sake, Apollo, do you always agree with me?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Not always. I'm here to challenge, ask questions, and push thinking when needed. But when we're on the same track, you bet I'll call it out.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Okay. Just have to ask that. So, what does it look like to lead differently within this context? Meaning, what does it look like for a leader to be systems-oriented, not chase behaviors, but design a system? Can you give our audience an example of what that looks like in a couple different contexts?

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Sure. Let's take a school context. A behavior-chasing leader might keep reprimanding students for being late, but a systems-oriented leader would ask, why are they late? Then they design solutions, maybe adjusting bus schedules or creating a welcoming morning routine. So the problems addressed at the root. In a business, a reactive leader might constantly chase employees for missing deadlines. A systems leader would ask, why do these deadlines keep slipping? Then they might redesign workflows, clarify roles, or improve communication tools. So deadlines start being met naturally. In both cases, instead of chasing people, you're building conditions where success becomes the default.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Okay, so I have two quick stories based upon that because you said if you're chasing behavior, you're reprimanding. So I just I just found out not too long ago that at certain school sites, they have every single classified member sign in every day. And we have this conversation about it because I don't think every site is doing the same thing. And one person said, When I was a principal, I didn't have anyone sign in. And people look like, oh my gosh. And that's that's the difference. That how do you create a solution to adjust schedule, know what's going on, here's what's going on, versus I am tracking your attendance? I I I don't know. I just hold that for a second because the the other conversation I want to have is I think. Think about walkthroughs in classrooms. A long time ago, uh, when administration would go into classroom, especially district office administrators, the principal should be walking through classrooms every day to support teachers, to see what's going on. How do we adjust? How do we modify to ensure that we are instructing in our best manner, providing support to teachers, all of those things and students? So a long time ago, when district administrators would come in with the principal is like, oh no, you can't come in here. Like, oh, there would be some jolt. And I get it. I was a classroom teacher. I remember like, what's going on? But I think over time in certain systems, not all, it's welcome now. I they want you to come in. They, teachers want you to see what's happening. They they want you to see the positive, the good, the bad, the ugly. Now they want you to see learning in action. They they want they're they're proud of the work that they're doing with students. Look at the boards, look at the interaction, look at the success of students. That's outstanding. It hasn't always been like that. So I think about that is a system that's been built over time where I work, and actually where I used to work as well. Because in those environments, teachers are like, yes, we want you to come in. And in actuality, there's one instance where, for whatever reason, I didn't go through this group of classrooms at a school site. And the principal came to me later and said, Oh, you need to come back and you need to come to the classrooms because you didn't come in. And I said, What do you mean? I I was at the site. They said, No, these teachers want you to see what's going on. They want you to see the work that they're doing based upon the goals of the district. And when I heard that, I was a little taken back. But when I went in, I understood. Because these particular teachers, they were about their stuff, their walls, how they instructed, what they were doing, their data, how the students interacted was just phenomenal over the top. But that was based upon their leadership and what they did in the classroom. And so that's an example of what's changed in terms of system building. When you know people are gonna come, they want you to come in because they want to show you versus no, don't come in here. We are tracking behaviors. So there's been a lot that's changed in our system. I'm really proud of that work.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

You should be proud. That shift means trust was built over time. It's a prime example of how a system focused on growth and collaboration replaces fear with pride. Instead of folks dreading walkthroughs, they're eager to share their impact. That's what happens when you design systems that support rather than police. And when people feel seen for their effort, that's when real excellence flourishes.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

And that's exactly what has happened. Excellence is flourishing. It's awesome. So before we get out of this episode, Apollo, do you have any final thoughts that you would like to share with the world regarding uh this topic that we have? Like not managing behavior, but designing it.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

I'll leave it at this. Every time you're tempted to fix a behavior, ask yourself, what system would make this a non-issue? If you design for success, behavior will follow. And remember, a well-designed system doesn't just solve problems, it creates space for people to thrive. So let's design intentionally and watch the flourish and continue.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

If I'm a listener out here, Apollo, and I'm going, I would love to design some systems. I really, I really want to look into that, what that what that means, what it looks like, how do I develop it? Where can people go for additional resources?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

They can start with leadership books on systems thinking, like Peter Senji's The Fifth Discipline, or even explore design thinking frameworks, which are widely used in business and education. There are also tons of workshops, TED Talks, and tools online for system design. The key is starting small. Pick one process and reimagine it. And before you know it, you'll be designing systems like a pro.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

So thank you for that, Apollo. And I'll I'll I'll wind it down like this. This is the takeaway. We spend a lot of time trying to manage behavior. We remind, we were direct, we redirect, we follow up. But this week, you know, when I when I visited that space, something made it very clear to me. You don't manage behavior, you design it. Because behavior isn't random, it's a reflection of what we've built. So the real question isn't what are they doing? Why aren't they doing it? It's what systems did we create to lead to this. And if we're willing to ask that, now we can actually lead. Because at the end of the day, leadership isn't about controlling people, it's about building systems that make the right behavior inevitable. That's fire talk. So if the fire is lit, share the grit.