Pilot Episode

In this Pilot episode, we meet James Collins of Heroes In The Sky Foundation and Shawn Hibbard of Nautical Salute. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Welcome everybody. This is James Collins. I'm the president and founder of Heroes in the Sky Foundation, and we are embarking on an exciting new journey with Breaking the Silence Together, the Aftermath of Suicide podcast. I know you see a different co-host over there. We're excited to have Sean Hibbert join the team as a experienced leader in military operations as well as an experienced leader in business management. And I just like to say experienced leader in taking care of veterans and those close. So welcome, Sean. We're great to have you here. Thanks for having me. And I'm glad to be uh on this journey with you as well. All right. And so before we get started, we do want to recognize our sponsors. We we want to thank the American Legion Post 135 in Savannah, Georgia. Um, they are our title sponsors this year. And so American Legion Post 135 is located in historic downtown Savannah, Georgia at 1108 Bull Street. It's a member of the largest veteran service organization in the nation. They were founded on the principles of service to our veterans and to our community, state, and nation. Their membership is open to any veteran who has served honorably and to active duty service members. They are home to the local 1110, Betty Bombers, Brighter Day, Centennial Bean, Lee Chai, and their bar is open to the public. They hold several events in their ballroom each year that are open to the public, and the ballroom is available to rent for functions. So thank you, American Legion, for being the sponsor this year. We really appreciate you. So we're going to get into this. I am, you know, James Collins. I'm a retired staff sergeant, medically retired in 2013 from the United States Army. Spent 27 months of my military career in the combat theater of operations, OIF. Um, really enjoyed my combat time, really enjoyed my military service time until it came to a to a halt there with injuries and et cetera, where I was medically discharged. But um really appreciate, you know, I really appreciated the values and lesson life lessons that war taught me. That the the resilience that it instilled in me, the just the mental capacity that you don't know you have until you have to use it in a in a war or combat zone where it's your life versus theirs. And I I just really feel like that made me mature as a leader, as a person, as a soldier. And I'm I'm actually grateful for my time in in uniform and time in combat. And so, but that but that but combat time and and service is nothing new to Sean as well, but because between the two of us, we've got 57 months of combat experience between OIF and OEF campaigns. So take it away, Sean. Let's tell let's introduce the audience to our brand new co-host and your life experiences.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Well, uh that's a very that's a very tough thing to follow there, my friend. Um, but yes, Sean Hibbard, I spent a total of 22 and a half years in the service. Um, some people know this piece, but some don't. But uh after 10 years of being in the in the United States Army, I actually went into the United States Air Force and became a flying crew chief on a C5, which is nicknamed the Flying Bus. But um Air Force life didn't uh actually suit me, so I decided to get to get a discharge to back into the army. Um in um yeah, I so I spent another you know 10 years uh back in the army after that, and two deployments overseas and uh a stateside deployment, uh to to backfill some some service members who had gone to Iraq, um, SWAT certified, snipers qualified. Um yeah, I did a little bit of everything actually. I was kind of like the jack of all trades, but uh I ended up retiring and ending my career at the uh Joint Chiefs of Staff uh out in Suffolk as part of the Pentagon uh in the cyber assessments division, actually, of all places. So you got an infantryman and a sniper who's actually running cyber operations. So being able to adapt, I guess you could say, is what the the the army really taught me is to be uh a versatile Swiss Army knife, no pun intended. But uh absolutely yeah, and then helping veterans I've I've actually been helping veterans through different nonprofits since uh 2008. Um and you know, decided to start my own nonprofit and uh in the end of December of 2024.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

So and that nonprofit is Nautical Salute, and if you haven't, if you're not aware of them, check them out because what they do is they take veterans out fishing, produce much needed camaraderie, letting those veterans and those families know that they're not alone. And I personally have been on a few of those fishing trips and they are very fun. Um, we do we do make the jokes what stays on what happens on the boat stays on the boat, but it's just one of those things, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yep, absolutely. Right? Having having a space where you can you can be yourself and be vulnerable, um, and and not feel judged is probably one of the biggest uh quote unquote uh safe spaces for veterans uh today.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

So and I think what with with those with that language that we that's what we want to turn this into. This podcast, we want that when we start, you know, allowing engagement from other guests, which we will, we want it to be a safe place for those veterans and those families, children, anybody affected by post-traumatic stress and suicide, this is a safe place. And that's that's that's that's the design of it. Is we want we're trying to focus on what comes after war. Like when you take that uniform off. Now, when we say war, that doesn't mean you know, theater, it could be it could mean theater of operations, it could be, you know, your your time in the service as if you know, other deployments that weren't that weren't war-based. It's it's when you take the the uniform off in general, yeah. It is what we're trying to focus on here.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And even as the war within your own mind, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah, it is. It's it's a it's a mental war, you know. And so, you know, we talk about the mental war and what some of those mental wars look like, you know, with with ex with heavier trauma, um, you know, lost loss of loved ones, you know, maybe that loss of loved one is in the line of duty, maybe you lose him to suicide, uh, just just the trauma associated and affiliated with serving this country and wearing the uniform, and then them abruptly just saying, Hey, okay, you're done, take the uniform off. We really have to start talking about what comes next.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Well, I think in and one of the things I know you're gonna you're gonna touch on, but with with that uniform piece, that just because we take our uniform off and we leave that theater of operations per se, um, we also have our family members who have been living a different war, and sometimes that war is us and yes and the battles that we are going through. So I I I know you're gonna cover a lot of this, and uh this is a conversation uh that is is not gonna be easy. Um and it's and it's not gonna be uh something that we should shy away from either.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

No, raw. I think I think we need I I think we just need to use the words that what it's gonna be. Yeah, you know, raw, real you know, and when we talk about that, you you don't know how many people I see shy away from that even military veterans that shy away from talking about this because of they've lost two or three warriors to suicide, but they don't feel comfortable talking about it. Yeah, because it it's it's it's uncomfortable as a warrior.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

You're you're taught not to compartmentalize, drive on mission first, mission always, right? And it it's it's now becoming more acceptable uh from everything that I've seen, and especially in the last couple years that I serve, right? It's right now becoming more acceptable to not be okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Exactly. And it, but it you but we have to normalize the discomfort of saying we're not okay. That it's hard for some people to say that because then in in their minds, they they see they see it might be as a weakness or something like that, right? Well, I I think we need to, as we're talking about these conversations, we need to get rid of that, dispel that right away. Because I don't see PTSD as a weakness, it's it's not a weakness at all. And it's it's just something we have to talk about openly and truthfully, because any other way we're not making a difference.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah, like you know, one of the one of the things that that yeah, we talk about that I I I think you can kind of touch on is you know the blast radius from from this this taboo subject, right? And you know, and and what how far does it extend?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

You know, so that's well, and we put let's put that into perspective for those who you know we're blast radius is kind of a military term, right? But for those of us listening, for those listening that may not understand what that is, that is the area that's affected once we lose somebody to suicide, how far does that suicide loss extend? How far then the family, how far in the community, how far just in your local, you know, your local towns when they hear about it? That's what when I think of blast radius, that's what I think about.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

So the area, area of impact, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

So yeah, and it's it's growing. It's it's not a very it's not a small area of impact. I mean, we talk about if if we want to quantify that, we use that we use veteran rates right now. We're you know, we we lose 44 veterans a day to suicide, but then every suicide is going to affect five family, a minimum of five family members, probably more, and then 135 community members. So you can do the math there and see what how big this blast radius actually is. It's around 29,700 people affected daily by just veteran suicide, not first responder, EMS, corrections, not the other trauma populations that are exposed to this and have elevated risk. This is just the veteran population.

SPEAKER_03 11:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

And so I, you know, ironically enough, you know, the shirt that I'm wearing, you know, it actually has a lot of those statistics that you're covering about first responders, veterans, um, you know, firefighters and such. And this this shirt and and this graphic that's on the back, um, it really is a conversation starter on most cases. And I think that's why you did it.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yes, yeah. And so FY, if you this if you want the shirt he's talking about, go to go to heroesinthesky.org, hit that shop button, go go support us. But you can see the shirt he's talking about. And everything we sell on that store does not go into our pockets, it goes back to the mission. 35% of all proceeds go right back to Heroes in the Sky, and we can continue to take care of our families and advocacy. So if you see the shirt he's wearing, go check it out. But yes, it's it incorporates all of the different dynamics and that suicide effects. I like to think of it as the elephants in the room because no one talks about firefighters with the seven hold holding a 72% greater risk for suicide than the general public. Like, how many if you ask somebody who has a higher suicide rate and you say a veteran or a firefighter, most people want to say a veteran because we have not educated people on what the suicide rate for firefighters are. We haven't educated people on what the suicide rate for corrections officers or police officers or EMS personnel. And so that's what that's why this is really going to get raw and real because in this podcast, we're gonna touch on this stuff in depth. Yeah, and so if you fall in one of these populations, or you let's say you're currently serving as an EMS or public safety official, we want it to be a little, we want it to be very uncomfortable for you so you understand the challenges facing you.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the that's the biggest piece, right? Everybody hears statistics and numbers that's covered on TV, right? There's VA has their specific numbers and and you know the veterans are are continually being put in the spotlight, while you know, in my opinion, the the men and women who serve on the front lines in America, uh, as you know, police, firefighters, paramedics, uh even dispatchers, right? Nurses, don't forget nurses. Yeah, exactly. Nurses, nurses in the in in the trauma, the amount of trauma that they experience in day to day is greater in a lot of aspects than we served at in uh in war because only 10 of the the military population that deploys even sees generally combat, right? So so you have a fragmented group of of a service members where that's getting the highest concentration. That's that's what you're seeing on the TV, but but not the things that are around us every single day.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

And those are the questions that need to happen. And I I believe the resources need to be uh expanded upon for them.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Well, and there's questions unanswered because when you start breaking into populations that aren't typically talked about, then you have all these you you break into the realm of you hear the statistics, but then you're like, Well, what can we do? Or why are their rates so so much higher or elevated than these? And it it comes down to exposure, is you and you hit on it. The as a military personnel, you know, you know, and yeah, no, whatever unit you're in, your operational security is gonna determine your your purpose is gonna determine how long your deployments are. Some of them are three months, some of them are six months, mine were 12 and 15 months, but 12 and 18. Yeah, 18 months, you know, say and so they're they're they're all gonna vary, but the difference is after those tours or those times are up, those military service men and women come home for somewhat of a desensitation period. Yeah, right? They come home, they they get to reintegrate back with their family, and it's not a lot of time. I understand that, because do you have to retrain and and get back into the fight, but it's more time than a public safety official person gets. Because if you look at the average police officer working 12-hour shifts, they've seen whatever they've seen in 12 hours, and then they're expected to go home and and then be sensitive and be back in in under 12 hours, and that 12 hours doesn't include you know, spending time with their family, doing their hobbies, eating dinner, driving back and forth to work, sleeping, but sleeping. So it they it's very little time in between where our first responders, our firefighters, our law enforcement officers, and even corrections work in 12, 14-hour shifts. They don't get a lot of time in between to process what happened, and then they're expected to mentally be ready to go back on the same shift the next day and like nothing happened. Yeah, yeah, it's and that's and that's why their rates are elevated, that's why the suicide rates in our first responders are there because they're just not they're not talked about enough, but they are it's prevalent enough that we need to be focusing on it. And here's in the skies that's that's half of the stats from the back of the shirt you're wearing are for first responders, and and so we have to put our focus there. But you know, and then we look at we talk about silence versus conversation, right? How many people suffer in silence? With you know, maybe, and that could be anything, that could be you're you're in grief because you've already lost somebody to suicide and you're just you just can't talk, you know, you don't want to talk to anybody because you feel shameful or regretful or whatever they whatever stigma is behind it, but then you also talk about the silence that our police officers face because there's not much many incentives for them to open up and actually articulate and conversate about how they're feeling. Because what's gonna happen is you're gonna you're a police officer and you you actively say, Hey, I'm I'm having troubles mentally. What's the first thing they do?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

They pull your service weapon, weapon and your purpose, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, they take the entire purpose that you have for doing that job because they're it's not a lucrative job, they're not making six, seven figures. It's not they're there because they genuinely want to touch the community, yeah. And so we're adding to the elevated suicide risk when you take away their purpose, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

I mean, and and even with that, right? Sitting sometimes just in that um in that discomfort, right? And having the ability to talk to somebody um who's who's not gonna automatically go to the most extreme um situation of, hey, let's pull you out of the field or let's pull it. Sometimes it's just sitting with that person relating because I don't really think we should ever really say understanding, right? I can't because James, I we we have been in similar situations, but I don't I can't understand what you've got going on, you know, and how you're processing it. Neither do our other firefighters and police officers and service members. Um they oftentimes just want to be heard or know that other people have these similar feelings, and it's gonna be okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Well, they they want somebody to sit in the discomfort with them. Yep, just sit there, they they they understand they're it's gonna be uncomfortable, they're living it every day. They want somebody to sit in that discomfort and not judge them, you know, and and then when you feel alienated, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:42

And you and you feel like you you you're alone, right? All that does is create more of a void, and uh once once and allows people to sink deeper into their own without actually being able to process it, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

It's right. What now then talking about that? How much do you think the maybe because there's stigma, because there's shame, because there's regret, because people don't want to talk about it, it produces silence. Yep. How much do you think silence factors into elevated suicide risk, perceived burdensomeness that they don't belong here, all these myths and and all the myths that we're trying to dispel surrounding suicide? Most of this stuff starts with silence.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Yep. Well, it's easier to be quiet, right? Right. It's and it's easier to shut the world out because you don't want to bring your burdens on them, you don't want to bring the mood down, you start isolating, pulling back. Um it you know, I write I write about this in my book literally called veteran isolation and And isolation and silence has become the number one killer amongst the population.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Well, and then you talk about when the when they when they go silent and they start isolating, that starts a multitude of so many other problems. What people don't realize, intimate partner, intimate problems with your relationship start to suffer because you're now you're now no longer communicating effectively with them, so you don't feel close with them. You know, you you're not openly up talking with them, so they don't feel close to you. Monetary issues, financial issues, stuff like that, all of that stuff is going to compound, and it all starts with one thing. When you start to silence yourself and you start to isolate yourself, here goes everything else in the rabbit hole. Starts.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Well, and it's easy to just self-destruct and just continue to because you feel like you're taking yourself out of the equation, but really what you're doing is you're creating more of a problem where everybody else also feels like they have to tiptoe or they need to start pulling back so they don't make somebody mad. Um, yeah, it's I mean, as a man, I'll tell you, like my ego used to be my biggest downfall. I'm a man, I can take it. I I don't need anybody. And then it that actually fed my issues worse, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Oh, yeah, and you're gonna do, and that's when you start having people tiptoe around you and they they feel like they're not comfortable around you, or or for whatever reason that may be, that starts producing so many other issues. Because now you're not only are you isolating, your family is now having to isolate because there's no contact, or the trust maybe not be there, or you don't know who you can trust, or and it's not intentionally, but when you get when you get into a mental state like this where your mind is sick, you don't see rationally, your your thoughts aren't rational.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

But that leads to your own your own demise and your own truths, right? You start creating your own truths around it, and and that is literally extremely discomforting, not for just you only, but everybody else, which continues to go back to what you talked about earlier, the blast radius, right? It's another piece that just feeds everything else, and you know it's uh but when you can but when you can like rationalize and normalize like some of these truthful aspects about yourself and as a veteran or as a first responder and and how things are actually affecting you, that's really how it starts to begin the healing piece, correct?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Well, you have to you have to identify the things happening within you. Yep. Like if you're gonna make a difference, it starts with you. Like you can't expect a change from people around you if you're not willing to start working on yourself and maybe dealing with some of these uncomfortable truths about where you are in life or emotionally, how you're you know, what your behaviors are like. You have to acknowledge those so you can begin healing.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

You know, there's there's two movies that come to mind, you know, that that I actually really enjoy watching. Um, and they're hard to watch. They're because it covers a lot of like everything, right? Um, it it does cover loss, uh it does cover uh veteran suicide. Uh the first one being, you know, thank you for your service. I think we've talked about that before. I mean, that is such a hard, gritty movie to watch, but you have the different facets where you know, some of the service members who come back, you know, they some have a supportive family, some have one that just don't understand, and and they just compound on just tell me, tell me, tell me, and they're not ready to talk yet. Or, you know, the veteran who ends up dying by suicide because they just can't take the environmental strain of everything else, of how you go from being this uh operator of of you know just opt tempo, hi, hey, hi, and you come home and you're like what now, right? And then you know, there's another one called Mending Mending the Line, uh, which is you know more about a veteran who deals with the loss of his brothers and in theater, uh, and then comes back and is integrated into the VA system, right? And then gets connected with a peer uh from a different war, but still a marine, right? And you get to see these bonds where both of them were isolating, both of them were avoiding the truths, right? Sitting in their own stuff, but not willing to take the next step. And you know, it it comes back around at the end of the movies, and you but it's things like that that sometimes could be a very, very simple, you know, conversation starter, but correct.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah, and you put because then you then you when you when you start bringing people to get together, and you there's more connected connectedness, right? I'm not alone, I'm not alone, and we so we start to dispel some of these myths. I'm not alone, I am enough, I'm not a burden to my family, my family needs me here. And the more you have those conversations with that peer, peer-to-peer, where you were both in that area of of darkness, you both start to heal. Wait a minute, we are needed here. And but then it also opens us up to even talking about what PTSD really is, because one of the biggest complaints I have with some of the VA statistics of how they identify suicide rates and research is but to actively and fit to actively determine how to fix the problem, you have to be able to define the problem. Yep. And one of the issues that we see, you you talked about it earlier. You mentioned something about the disparities between the numbers that we educate people on and then what the VA produces. And those numbers are off for several reasons, and and it does, and it's and it's not a good thing. Because the reality here is that I'm gonna make some people mad here, but that's what I'm really good at. I'm I'm here at Ruffling Feathers, and we're bringing awareness to something that needs to be said. The reality is if you died by suicide tomorrow, the VA would only count you in their statistics if you were in if you were on active duty orders or on contract, if you had more than 180 days of consecutive service, or if you have been discharged, if you have an honorable discharge. So, how many populations do we just exclude and research?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah, we or potentially for the fact that you have a PTSD diagnosis and you're being treated VA, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Like that's or yeah, and if it's on if the death certificate does not have the set does not have the language on it that it needs to, the VA does not count you in their suicide statistics. So we're excluding National Guard, reservist, other than honorable discharges, dishonorable discharges, death certificates that did not have suicide or trauma related. And you now can you see why the numbers are so far off? Because we're excluding four or five populations in this research that we should be counting.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Do you think do you think, in your opinion, um, and just how history kind of goes, do you think that they'll ever amend that? Uh, or how how do you think, or what will it take to get that amended?

SPEAKER_00 30:43

I would like to, I don't know that answer, but I would really like to be the one to figure it out. That would be really that would be really awesome to and and awesome is probably not a good word here because we are talking about rates surrounding suicide. But the way I look at this is we've already lost them. Like we have already lost these warriors. So by excluding them from research, we're not doing them any justice, we're not bringing any awareness to their families. So yeah, it would be I don't know what I honestly don't have an answer for that. I'd like to know what we could do that when when it stumps you, yeah. That's the golden, that's the golden question is how do we get the VA to start including more of these populations in in the suicide statistics so we give the public a more accurate representation. So when I tell somebody 44 veterans today, they don't look at me like I'm a liar. Yeah, and but that's that's just the the the landscape we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

But there was a there was a uh actually that number came out from a study, correct?

SPEAKER_00 31:53

That was done an independent, several independent studies is how they kind of got to that number where 44 44 is documented on multiple studies from collegiate universities, peer documented research, it's legitimate, legitimate numbers. And some of them, you know, some people quote up to 60. I never use that just because I haven't seen the studies to validate that. Am I saying it's incorrect? Probably not, because we're not even we haven't even started talking about the people who are suffering in silence and didn't tell anybody anything, and nobody's even counting them.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

I mean that are better veterans who don't have any family left anymore, and they're they've already you know died by suicide, and they're and there's no one to even identify it.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah, historically, there's no one trying to identify them for their service for them being included in the numbers. So, yeah, and it but that opens up to what PTSD really is, and we have so many people that I've heard comments, so many disheartening comments about people claiming to have PTSD for the purpose to financially gain from it, or so they don't have to work or accept accountability or responsibility. When that's the furthest from the truth. That I can't even, you know, when I when when I heard when I hear stuff like that, it really does make me upset because that's the furthest from the truth. There's no advantage for me to claim I have PTSD. My life is so turned upside down. My wife and my kids have had to account for a completely different life than what they wanted to because of my PTSD. There's nothing, there's no advantage to me claiming to have PTSD. I'm not where am I benefiting from it other than mentally? I am struggling and my family's struggling as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

I don't know if you feel comfortable, James, uh, with this or not, but um, you know, obviously both of us being diagnosed and and and having to deal with uh PTSD on a daily, uh daily basis, uh hourly basis, right? It's like, do you feel comfortable like sharing some of the things that you you have experienced as it relates to PTSD?

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Sure. I mean, I I always go back to we're not able when we take the uniform off, I always call it that fight or flight. So in that combat zone, that fight or flight that kicks in real fast because it's you versus them, right? But when you're home, that there is no the escalation, like people, you know, you'll what what it takes to get somebody mad or triggered, some people have a very low tolerance where the smallest thing can trigger them just like that. And most of it's combat veterans whose flight or flight responses have been activated in in war. But I I struggle definitely with hypervigilance, just reactivity, like reliving things that happened in those combat zones. And people don't realize it's always not what you think this is. This could be as a simple fact as your air conditioner goes out in your house and you have to put a window unit in your bedroom so you can stay cool. But then when you open you put the window unit in, you've now created a less secure space in the veteran's mind because that window's open all night and they feel insecure and they feel the need to protect their family. And I've personally done this. I've been I've stood in front of my bed watching an open window with a pistol for hours on end every night because I thought somebody was breaking in my house. So it's PTSD looks different for everybody, but it's a lot of things people don't equate to. You know, or the whole this whole conflict right now we're having in the Middle East now with Iran. People are like, well, how how was that triggering to you? You were in Iraq. Do you not realize that the munitions that Iraq and they've been using in the global war on terrorism, most of them came from Iran? They have Iranian letters on the side of them that they were using to blow us up in Iraq. Like, PTSD is so much more than what people claim it to be. It's not some, oh, I have PTSD, give me a handout. It it really uproots your life and changes the trajectory of how you live your life because you now you have I can't do the things I used to because now I have triggers. I'm I'm I'm subject to noises that I can't take anymore. I can't do fireworks because they whistle, almost died by a rocket. There's so many things PTSD does to you and your family that people just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

So so that right there, you know, it it does alter the course of your daily activities, right? It it for you and for what you even want to like have your family experience, right? Because you know, what if this happens to them, you know, and it's like like me, I can I I can be fine. I'm fine sitting with my back to the door and things like that because I just don't care. And I'm half the time I'm like let something happen. You you know what I mean? It's like it's like um, or you know, I see randomly out in the middle of the country on a drive, and you see rocks stacked on top of each other. Well, you know what that is when you're overseas, it's usually an aiming point, right? Or you know, like a trigger instant in like instance, but you know, a lot of times for me, you know, mine is what starts playing in my mind, the what ifs, right? And and then some of the depression stuff kicks in, and then I just don't I don't want to do anything, and I just and I start feeling all the loss and and just the pain, right? Like I start feeling the pain, and then I start thinking about my brothers, you know, who you know, my one who died by suicide in theater, you know, and you have to find them, you know, like in the in the visuals, like so what what what it looks like for me is definitely probably different than from you, but that's the key. Everybody's journey is different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

And and and PTSD is exactly it it's a it's not a weakness, it's it really is a mental sickness, it's a wound that we struggle with, and the long-term effects that this has on. I I have recently started saying if you serve this country, you put that uniform on, you raised your hand, and whether or not you went to a combat zone or not, it's elevated if you did. But do you realize that when you take the uniform off, you've already you're already sacrificing your life? And people are like, Well, what are you talking about? Well, let's think about this. Putting the uniform on, you're sacrificing your life if you fall in the line of duty, if you fall in a war zone, if you if you pass while you're on active duty, you sacrificed your life. Well, you're still sacrificing your life if you die by your own hands because of the trauma that your military service gave you. So we're still sacrificing our warriors there too, because we're they're dying by their own hands. And then think about the, you know, this is the one that gets everybody. Think about the warriors that get out and just over time, mentally and physically, that long-term toil that you feel, your PTSD just eats at you slowly over years and years and years. So no matter what, if you put that uniform on and you wore that uniform, when it's time for you to take it off, you sacrifice with your life. It does not matter that it's in one form or another, you're sacrificing with your life.

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Your purpose, you know, what you thought your what you thought your purpose was or what it was at one point and is now it's changed. You know, the it's the misunderstanding, right, of what PTSD is and how it affects everybody. Here's a here's a quick example, real quick, uh, about something that I experienced when I was at the Army Geospatial Center as a subject matter expert and sniper and counter IED operations, right? I actually had a boss tell me uh who was government employee but never in the military, knew that I was a sniper, literally almost mocked me one time, and is like, Oh, I better not make you mad. I'll come in here one day and you're a sniper, so you might shoot me from afar. I'm like, Did you really? I'm thinking to myself, did you really say that?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

But I can't really react to that because then if I do, he's gonna and it's like, wow, like well, there's there's career like there's career, there's career implications if you respond to that.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Because if you if you look back at it, people misunderstand what I yeah, do people sometimes have physical outbursts and such and reactions to to p a PTSD incident and moments? Absolutely, but to be shamed by somebody and mocked, right? Oh, you're gonna be you know, you were snipers, you know, if you go crazy, uh it's like you don't even really understand how this affects them.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

No. Well, and then we're we're talking about the size of PTSD too. Yeah, like how many how many populations, you know, we're not talking about just the veterans living it. Who because who else is involved in this? You know, your families, you know, everybody, your families, your battle buddies, your parents, everyone's involved in and and them trying to misunderstand like that, and the biggest thing that we see in these cases is that misunderstanding, right? Where they think, oh, he they don't love us, or they they haven't, you know, maybe your your your wife or your partner's like, well, they haven't been the same person, they haven't tried to touch me in two weeks, three weeks. It's because they're depressed, and it's not that they don't love you, it's they're they feel so isolated in despair that they can't get out of their own mind to feel any emotion. Yeah, but it but it's that's the sides of PTSD that nobody talks about. People only think that PTSD affects the veterans living it. No, it affects everybody involved.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

There's secondary PTSD as well, you know, the family members who have to live it and and and they become you know triggered or fearful of well, I don't want to do this because I don't want to invoke you know destructive behaviors or some of these other high-risk behaviors that that I have, you know, part about that in the book, self-destruct, right? Veterans, veterans who are chasing something to either calm their urges or feel a different one, you know, sense of control, right? You know, looking at some of these behaviors is not just about the obvious. It's suicidal ideations and behaviors or actions, right? There's more to it.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

It's got to, is, it's, it's, it's, it's sometimes it's more subtle subtle stuff like people making comments, well, I don't care if I live or die. Or and that's not always the case, because there are some people legit that aren't scared to death. I understand that. But when you pair that, that feeling of not caring if you live or die with recklessness, isolation, despair, and then you start getting into substance use. And I highlight substance use because this is critical in impulse control. Because when you become impaired due to certain substances, whatever you choose, whatever recreational substance you choose, when you become impaired, your impulse control shoots through the roof. So you're not thinking about the decisions you're making, or if it makes any sense, or if it's good or bad. You're just doing it, you're just acting on the fly. Because your impulse control is elevated, and but that's that that comes from the substance use.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

Or or sometimes just that dopamine hit uh or that or that adrenaline that you get because you feel like you can control a situation.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Oh, yeah. And that's always that was me all day long, like right. I want to be able to control my environment. I don't care about controlling people, but I want to control my environment.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Right. And and when you can't, that that produces anxiety when you are in places where you can't control that environment. And though those are telltale signs of PTSD that the subtle signs that nobody talks about. Right. And I mean, we've talked about this earlier, too. All these myths surrounding suicide, like when you're in that, I call it the cone of despair when all you can see is I'm mentally hurting. This is my only way out. You believe these myths.

SPEAKER_01 46:08

It's all about right now. Nobody understands me, nobody gets me, nobody cares. Yep. I just like no one, no one, no one knows what I've done and what I've been through.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

I'm a burden to myself, I'm a burden to my family. You know, nobody loves me, nobody values me.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

You you oftentimes I'm just a provider, and that's it. Yeah, I'm a patron.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Oftentimes, yeah, you'll see those that right when they're getting close to dying by suicide, they will try to put those emotions in their families. They will try to get their families to hate them, they'll try to get their families to be uh to validate what they're feeling. And it's all myths. It's it's that's what we have to do to make a difference in this in this sector and our families and those affected by suicide is turn that the negatives with the myths and the miscommunications and insert positive values with those. And so let's teach these warriors that they are enough. I am strong enough. I'm not weak because I get help. My family does need me here, my battle buddies need me here. I am strong enough to fight this. When we turn those ties and we reverse it and we try to put insert positive emotions where these negative myths used to be, I think we can really make a difference in some in people's mental health.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Well, as we say, you know, this is not a comfortable topic topic, right? This is not a a I'm gonna make you feel good topic. It's it's also not a feel-good um progress for the veteran, right? It's it's gonna be a struggle, it's gonna be painful, but are you willing to actually put in the time and the energy to save your family and yourself?

SPEAKER_00 48:09

You know, that I had a conversation with somebody today, um, very high-ranking person. I'm not gonna do the security, I'm not saying his name, but we had a conversation, and the conversation was about he's he was a career firefighter become he became a city official, right? And he told me in a sentence, do you know how close I have had days where I wanted to end my life? But the only thing I fear in life is what is my family gonna be left with? Yeah, that's the only thing he fears is what what is my family going to do? If I'm not here, who's going to protect my family? What is my family going to be left with? And that's what's holding him and so many other people and veterans to this world. Maybe it's just one thing. Maybe it's your it's it's you don't want your children to feel, you know, to go through what you're going through. You want your children to have a better life. So that's the only thing holding you here because if you're not here, you don't know the kind of life they're gonna have. Yeah, and sometimes that's the only thing holding people to this world. That's the only thing people grounding people from them from dying by suicide.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

But that's powerful, that is their purpose, you know, for them in that moment. I was like, you know, I don't want to be selfish enough to say I do this, I'm also robbing my family of the person that they love.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

Correct. Well, and then let's talk about this because you choose to die by suicide. You the another myth that we just talked about is my family's gonna be if if I'm not here, my the worries go away and my family's gonna be okay, they don't have to deal with it. Well, that's the biggest myth I've ever heard because that is the farthest from the truth. All they're gonna deal with. Yeah, they that all that emotional pain and scars and isolation and despair that you felt when you die by suicide, you transfer it to them. Yeah, that now they are not only dealing with their grief because they're dealing with your loss, but now you've compounded on top the scars that you that you hid that you that you took your life for.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

At what point, um, since you're kind of talking about some of the purpose and and the pieces like that, at what point was it for you, James, that you that you had this calling or knew what your purpose was with educating? Because you're you're an educator in a lot of ways. You are an educator, um, and facilitator too, because you you're bringing the raw aspect of this and smacking them right in the face with it.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

The journey started when I everything we've talked about isolation, despair, I'm not good enough, I'm a burden, my family's better off without me. All those culminated into my last suicide attempt on a beach in Tennessee. And I took a spot on a PTSD retreat where I didn't know anybody, and that was a perfect reason because I was I wanted a plan, but I didn't want any of my family to find the body. So I took that retreat, and then I sat on a beach at 2, 3 in the morning with a backpack neck backpack and a 40 in it, and I had my hand on the pistol, and I'm not gonna say her name on here for privacy reasons, but there's a young lady who I still call her battle buddy for life. She didn't know who I was, but she knew I wasn't okay, and she she didn't leave me alone. And she sat there and talked to me for hours on that beach and would not leave me alone. To this day, when you ask her if she knew if there was a pistol in that backpack, she never knew. She didn't know what was in that backpack. She just knew I wasn't okay and she wasn't gonna leave my side. And so that started it for me because I had survived my self-attempts at destruction. I have survived putting myself in harm's way, you know, and in a combat zone, riding the 50 cal, thinking, okay, there's no way I'm not gonna come home in a box. Never happened. Explosions in front of me, explosions behind me. I've got three confirmed concussions in the TBI registry from IED blast, that close to them, but they never killed me. And so that was it for me when I realized that I'd failed at both self-attempts. Every other attempt failed, I'm like, okay, well, I got to do something. Because it I have to help people. Because if I'm feeling this way, somebody else is feeling this way. And that quickly turned into a focus to the families. Because let me tell you something. When you're standing on a podium doing a ceremony honoring a warrior that we've lost to suicide, and that warrior's mother is in front of you, the pain that you see in that mother's eyes is unbearable. And at that moment, I realized that Heroes in the Sky was so much more than just putting a warrior's name tape on a board or a vest. This has to be for the families. The families have to be uplifted. We have to advocate for them. We have to give them a voice, an identity, and a purpose because those families have higher suicide rates than anybody knows. A mom that's lost a child to suicide is two times more likely to die by the same fate. A spouse that's lost another spouse is three times more likely to die by the same fate. And then, did you know that children of military parents inherit the trauma from their military parents?

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Well, I mean, they they grow up with within it. Yeah. In and day out, right? And so that's it. And you do have like the mom or the dad sometimes being like, just just give them space, don't say anything, don't make them mad, you know, or don't don't push the buttons. They're like let them have their time, right? Uh I think that breeds that breeds there's a squirrel or something or a cat out there. Um, but it allows it, it it just fosters that environment where it's like, oh, we just gotta shy away, right? And and and that that breeds that uncomfortable silence, you know. And I mean, just looking that, you know, every veteran, first responder, uh, even family member, right? And survivor of either, you know, an attempt or a success in in the veteran's eyes, right? Um suicide is what is their purpose now in the aftermath?

SPEAKER_00 55:24

And so you know what? We have a program called Deterrence Through Truth, and even a program where we have suicide survivors on a panel waiting to help other people through grief, it turns that pain into purpose. It when we give them a voice, when we show them that they have a reason to be here, that they can affect other people, that they can have a positive value on somebody else's life, we do a couple things. One, we've just reduced their suicide rate because now they want to stick around and help people. But two, we've given them a reason to continue going, something to cling to. That they are validated, that they are wanted here. And our families need that. Because when I you're when you're a family member, and I don't know what this feels like, and I will never act like I do. If you're a family member that that has lost a warrior to suicide, the grief that you must feel, the emptiness that never goes away, we have to find some way to instill purpose back in them and give them something hopeful to talk about and live for. And if any, I don't care if it's just, well, this family needs me because I'm helping them, then we've won because we're keeping you here.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Yeah. That's the most important piece, really, is one, they're no longer alone. And oh yeah, somebody that has has you know been in their shoes. Um, you know, the situation may be different on on you know how their loved one or or their child or their father or whatever uh has passed, right? The situation may be different, but just knowing that somebody else is out there is thriving, right? Or or they're not. You know, that connection, that human connection will allow them to either, hey, I want to, I want to get involved, or you know, I need to heal for myself a little bit. I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I gotta do, but I can't give to other people. Yet, you know, I mean, not everybody's meant to to share, you know, and they're not built to, but giving them a purpose and an opportunity, I think it's something that I'm grateful that that you do um through through the education and and the deterrence program.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

I I never thought of myself as an educator, I never thought of myself as anyone facilitating anything until I saw the demand for what we do. Yeah, and I'm not even say it's me because I'm not claiming any of this is like I'm the I'm just the one delivering the message.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Uh I think Heroes in the Sky is the platform in which um you know, stepping up to the plate and and and taking a lot of it, you know, at all.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Well, and we're and we're able to educate companies, people, populations nationwide about what this looks like and why and why we need more reform. And we, you know, and as we close out here, I think one of the biggest things that we talk about is some of the small stuff matters. Like if you know if you like reach out, show up. Like if it just that little that little thing, if if somebody's struggling and you just show up to something they're doing, maybe you validate a little hope in them that somebody cares about them. Give them a phone call when you know, even though you're tired, you had a long day at work or whatever's going on, and you're just mentally beat down and you know someone's in a bad spot, send them a text or a call and say, Hey, just checking on you, you know, or it's just the little stuff. We don't have to be perfect, we just need to be present. That right there, that's yeah, we need to be present for our battle buddies, for our families, for our friends, and we need to support them.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

You know, you know, before we before we close this out, you know, I one of the things that I loved so much about the army and what it taught me was to always have a battle buddy, you know, and and to to show up and and have somebody to lean on and be there for me as well. I mean, when you deploy and you do these things and you train for a year and then you go for another 18 months, you you know these people better than you know your own family, you know. But absolutely right here, yeah, have a set of dog tags in there that says battle buddy. And I am a firm believer in the battle buddy approach to to life. And and I I I feel like you know, heroes in the sky is it can it fosters that environment of where you know these these families and these service members who are part of it are battle buddies.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Absolutely. We are battle buddies to our families, and that's I've never I've never heard it put that way, but that's that's what we need to be. And together, we're gonna break the silence. We're you know, we're we know that we're going to we are going to continue to lose people to suicide. That is an unfortunate truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

But what are we doing to reduce the numbers? What are we doing to to instill purpose and validate hope in people who may be suffering? It's all the little things that what mean that there's some things I do with Heroes in the Sky that sometimes it's in front of 10 people, 15 people, or 20 people. And I never judge our education pieces or our travel pieces by how much money it raised or the the number of people in attendance. If I can touch one to two people and make them feel validated and know that they're wanted here, if I can touch one family and let them know that they have a purpose beyond that loss, then we've won. So yeah. So I think you know, let's let's close this out in a way. Um, we'll we'll do some final thoughts. That maybe what is one thing that if if someone everybody listening right now, what is that final thought you want to leave them with before we close this out tonight? And then we'll go to a final word from our sponsors.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

For me, uh the what I if I I could leave you with one thing is don't be ashamed to ask for help. It's never too late until it's too late.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Mine is always we we repeat this, has got to be on repeat. But and and if anybody that knows me has probably heard me say this a thousand times. If you are contemplating suicide, understand this fact. When if you die tomorrow by suicide, you have just transferred all of your pain, all of your demons, all of those scars that you were running from, your family now has to deal with them. So stay. It will get better. You don't know when those, you don't know when that when that storm's gonna pass, but that storm will pass. And when it passes, you will see the light and you will be here for your family. So let's um we'll close this out with a word from our sponsors. Um, so it just so you know, and and you want to follow this podcast, please do. We need your support. We film every other week. So um we'll film uh 24 episodes a year, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:24

Um so that way, and some some weeks there'll be part one, part two, um, and maybe even a part three that will go with these. Uh, but generally, uh every every week there will be a separate topic or guests or multiple guests, and you know, we appreciate you you tuning in.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Yeah, and then and you'll see a different platform here in the next once we get into May. Um, thanks to our our our title sponsors over at American Legion Post 135. We are moving this to the StreamYard platform where we can not only offer you the same live experience of of watching this podcast and touching these families, but you could be a guest, you could be a part of our conversation. So we look forward to having so many of y'all come into our conversations and talking with us and conversing with us so we can make a difference in the community. So at this time, we are going to end it. So look out for it. Uh, you can find these on YouTube, Here is in the Sky Foundation. They will be on Apple, Spotify, wherever you find your podcast, just type in Here is in the Sky Foundation. You can find the episode there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

We'll also add it onto the Nautical Salute website as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

There you go. So you could catch it on Nautical Salute as well. And then soon enough, it'll be as we stream live. You will not, we will you will be able to watch our podcast as we stream on StreamYard, Facebook, TikTok, no, I'm sorry, Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. It'll all be a live feed simultaneously while it's happening. So you can watch us on all three platforms. So we're gonna close this out with our title sponsor. We want to thank American Legion Post 135. They are the title sponsor for this year, allowing us to purchase StreamYard and touch so many families. So American Legion Post 135, they are located in historic downtown Savannah at 1108 Bull Street. They are a member of one of the largest veteran service organizations in the nation. They were founded on the principles of service to our veterans, to our community, our state, and our nation. Their membership is open to any veteran who has served honorably and to active duty service members. They are home to the local 1110, Betty Bombers, Brighter Day, Sentient Bean, and Lee Chai. And their bar is open to the public. So throughout the year, they're going to hold several events in their ballroom, and they are open to the public if you want to rent their ballroom for your for your private function. So thank you, American Legion Post 135. Thank you, everybody, for listening. We'll see you on the next episode. Heroes in the Sky Out.