Between Two Worlds -Transition , Loss, and the Weight We Carry

Shawn, James, and John Ring discuss the difficult  conversation about one of the hardest transitions a person can face: leaving military service and trying to find solid ground again in civilian life. This Episode discusses  those challenges service members face as they leave military service and enter civilian life, and the lasting internal impact of suicide loss on families. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Mental health and suicide. This episode includes open discussions of mental health challenges and self-harm and suicide. Please listen with care and pause or step away if you need to. If you are in crisis or worried about your safety, please contact your local emergency number on a trusted crisis support service. For listeners in the U.S., you can call or text at 988 for the suicide and crisis in lifeline. Welcome. This is James Collins. I am the president and founder of Heroes in the Sky Foundation. On behalf of myself and Sean Hibbert, an Audible Salute and Combat Kitchener, we welcome you to Breaking the Silence Together, the Aftermath of Suicide Podcast. This is a space dedicated to honoring active duty military, the veterans, first responders, their families, and the invisible weight they often carry. Each episode, we share real stories about mental health, resilience, and life after loss with honesty and respect. Some conversations may touch on trauma, self-harm, or suicide. We encourage you to listen at your own pace, take breaks when you need them, and reach out for support if something resonates with you. We're glad you're here with us. The views and opinions expressed by guests on this program are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy, position, or beliefs of the Heroes in the Sky Foundation or this content is provided for informational and educational purposes only and is intended to foster open dialogue and understanding. To learn more about our podcast or our programs, please visit www.heroes in the sky.org and welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

You look up that damn hill, it seems like it's gonna take forever to get up there. But if you just look at a 45-degree angle, instead of looking straight up, taking one step at a time, keeping your same pace, not worrying about what's going on to your left or your right, promise you you'll be there before you know it. Hey, we're on day what? Nothing but 19 more to go. Can't wait. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Alright, welcome in, everybody. I know you see the we had we added a little new intro in there. We wanted to pay homage to our co-founder D'Angelo Shaw for, you know, we lost him back in 2025. And we had video clips with with him in it, so I want to incorporate that part of the intro. And yeah, so that's gonna be the new intro moving forward. Get a little bit of paying a little bit of homage and memory to him.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Hey, you know, that's what that's what everything's about when it comes to heroes in the sky, and um and just honoring those that are no longer with us.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah. Yeah, and you know, we didn't lose him to suicide, but we so we we did lose him to violence way too soon. And so we're unfortunately we're dealing with that loss as anyone else would. And um, we've got a special guest today that's that's felt what that loss feels like as well. Uh John Rings joined us once before. Uh we brought we brought him back on because we the first time we had some audio issues and we wanted to make that right and make sure everybody was heard, so we're back again.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

Yeah, everything's everything's everything's already been tested and it and is working great, so we shouldn't have that issue now.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Exactly. I'm gonna pop these comments up before we start so we can engage the audience as well.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Yep, they're rolling.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yep. All right, Patricia Mayo. Thank you. Thank you. Um so now, let me see here. I need to.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

And and by the way, by the way, our audio engineer will be logging in shortly.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Okay, cool. That way he can run everything else. He's a lot better at it than I am. So, but I just I d well, I would say I get paid to sit here and talk, but I only I get I get paid and respect and taking care of family, so yeah, we get paid.

SPEAKER_04 6:32

So um well, no like no time like the present. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah, absolutely. Let me uh few sponsors and yeah, so tonight, once again, we want to thank our um our title sponsors for the year is American Legion Post 135. They're right here in downtown Savannah, Georgia. They are at 1108 Bull Street. They are a member of the largest veteran service organization in the nation. They were founded on the principles of service to our veterans and to our community, state, and nation. Their membership is open to any veteran who is who has served honorably and to active duty service members. They are home to the local 1110, Betty Bombers, Brighter Day, Centenniate Bean, and Lee Chai, and their bar is open to the public. The best part about this is if you want to rent that space in beautiful downtown Savannah, it is available for rent. I think they read did redist did the floors, building's phenomenal. Go talk to our friends down there and tell them hey, here is in the sky center. And then we want to thank uh Mari Bennett, who's a real realtor here in our uh area, and then we'll we want to thank um Raw uh Annie Montenegro from Raw's Realty. So thank y'all, everyone who's made this show possible. Couldn't do it without you. And welcome in, John Ring. We welcome you back.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Thank you guys, appreciate it, good to be here.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Absolutely, letting those voices be heard. Welcome back, Sean. We got another fantastic episode today.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this one as well. Uh, we got some time with John, and uh I'd look forward to kind of just uh delving back into it and uh spending some time with you, sir, and uh and James as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, absolutely. So the the title of tonight's episode is Between Two Worlds, Transition, Loss, and the Weight We Carry. And that's it just goes back to the challenges that service members face as they leave that military service, they take that uniform off, leave that purpose behind, and they enter this civilian life with the uncertainty. And then also we'd be talking about that internal lasting impact that suicide loss does have on families due to the fact that they can't find that purpose after they take the uniform off. So yeah, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

And then going into that even more, you know, you you've got, you know, for the service members, you know, the end of the military service is uh not just the end of the uh the fight, but it also becomes the beginning of a different battle, uh, specifically involving um identity loss, isolation, family strain. Uh we've got employment stress and issues, mental health challenges, uh, and too many other cases also the suicide risk.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Right. And and John, you yourself are a veteran. So you you've experienced some of these challenges yourself when you when you took that uniform off, didn't you, sir?

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Um yeah, I mean, probably a little less than people that enlist right out of high school because you know you're you're kind of not seen in life yet, you know what I mean? And you're kind of structured to that military world right away as an adult, young adult. I was much older, so I I kind of you know it was a little bit more easier than me. Uh plus I did a year in my last year, I was actually walking across the country, so um I was kind of like homeless.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

So while you were in, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

I did the last year I was in, I I uh they they extended my contract for a year so uh they could uh support me uh while I was walking and and advocating.

unknown 10:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Well, I tell you, that's that's a different story, and it's a little bit more complicated than that.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

But but I will say this though, in in certain aspects, you know, I was towards uh the two-thirds part of through my career, I was able to play professional football in the army. Let me go do that while I was still in the army, you know, to kind of do two folds, right? Chase a dream, but then also kind of be you know their poster boy in that aspects of things, like we've got a professional football player while still serving. Um, so I I kind of get a little bit of that, and you know, that that had to have kind of helped you sometimes kind of clear your head too. So absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

It's you know, it's a it's a different world when you're you're advocating in that capacity, you know, it's freeing, you have a lot of time. Um, and you're just I don't know, you're just you're stumbling upon some of the best people, you know, that are really open-minded to the mission that you're trying to accomplish. And they're coming out and helping you and helping you navigate uh the day-to-day mystery of where am I sleeping tonight? Where am I eating tonight? You know, and so it's I talked about that a little earlier this morning on another on another show. And you know, it's it's very uh it's it's probably one of the best experiences of my life, just you know, being out there on the open road and just every day was a mystery. Who am I gonna meet? Who am I gonna see? You know, so I I loved it, but definitely talked to so many veterans that struggled. Um, and Jimmy's being one of them, uh, one of the guys that walked with me, 25 years, retired master sergeant. Uh, went in out of high school and uh like what six deployments, if I'm not mistaken. Um gets out and you know, he he left the military in the sergeant major academy. He was in the sergeant major academy, retired, and he was just like, now what? You know, I don't know what to do. I've been getting told what to do my entire life. Now I gotta navigate and figure it out myself, you know. So it's it's it's a challenge.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

You know, oftentimes, not to deviate real quick, but more talking about that. I often, you know, we talk about how when you go into service, you know, they they morph you and mold you into what they the needs of of the service are, right? They have to they have to get you thinking and operating the way they want you to, but they really don't deprogram that aspect of you. And that that's probably the biggest challenge for most of our our our service members leaving is they just like people get addicted or to the chaos of war, and there's just it's just you're back home. Um, there's no gradual step down to reintegrate to become normal again. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

No, and and this is one of the the toughest transitions that a person will probably face uh if you've experienced serving in the armed forces going back to the civilian sector. And we see that all the time because the research shows us that that first three um they say like they like that that that first three months to almost up to that year of separation is when you have the highest risk for suicide due to some of these factors we're talking about. Like that that direct loss of purpose, like immediately you've lost, you know, a lot of these warriors aren't getting that option like you did where you know the the um you know for the last part of it, you got to still stay in, but then still define your purpose, find you know, have that at have that advocacy to stay. But for most of our warriors today, they don't get that. They they get the hand of that DD 214 and they're like, okay, thank you for your service, and then they're left to figure everything out. And we were I was having a conversation with somebody the other day, and I was talking about how some of the smallest tasks can seem difficult when you're transitioning out, such as filing taxes, such as the little bit of everyday things that like the everyday in the army, they told you, or any military, at least in the army, what uniform to be in, where you needed to be, what was your purpose doing it, what were you there for. Absolutely. And they gave you the guidance, they gave you the structure, they gave you everything you needed to be successful. And you get out, you lose all of that because you are now in charge of making yourself successful. And a lot of soldiers getting out don't know how to do that because they never filed their taxes on their own. Someone on the base always did it for them, you know, their wife always did it for them, or somebody, like you're saying, these it's the smaller challenges that you wouldn't think would be so monumental become monumental very fast.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Yeah, and I see it being even harder, and I and I'm gonna use Trey, for example, you know, after his deployment to Iraq, he was what 18, 19 years old. I think he turned 19 while he was in Iraq. Um, you know, he comes back a different person. And so when you get back from that deployment, a lot of these guys they start drinking, they start doing other things, you know, because they're going through it, you know, and they're not really given the tools. Um, you have great leadership out there, don't get me wrong, you do have good leadership out there, but a lot of times they're slipping through the cracks, you know, and they're not talking about it, they're not, you know, they're afraid they're gonna get kicked out, they're afraid, you know, all this other stuff. And so you see these soldiers kind of deteriorating from the inside out. And, you know, now not only are they going back into society, they're going back into society already damaged, having to navigate that world itself. They, you know, I'll I'll use a perfect example, one of Trey's NCOs who handpicked him to go on the deployment. Uh, he had just come from AIT and he reached out to me after Trey passed, and he was like, Look, he was like, I hand picked Trey to go on this deployment. He was a damn good soldier, you know. And then you come back from that deployment and you start going down that spiral. Well, now you start feeling things like I'm not that soldier no more, I'm not that guy anymore. I need to be that guy, and you kind of get lost, and then next thing you know, you're out on the streets looking in, and your military service didn't go the way you planned for it to go.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Hey Rich. Everybody meet our audio engineer, Rich, the man behind the scenes. Thank you. Thank you for it.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

I don't know what happened there. He just it just popped him in.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, I guess I guess the world needed an introduction to Rich, who's an awesome guy, but hey, hey Rich. There you go.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, um, you know, real quick, you know, where we're talking about this, uh uh Amber McLam in the in the comments. Uh I ended up medically separating right before COVID and found that is found that especially hard. Thankfully, I was offered a virtual group through the VA, which allowed us to all discuss our coping mechanisms that we were all using during the transition process as well as COVID. And then started a found, then they started the foundation from that that shall not be named, but um, you know, adversity adversity always creates opportunities, though, in most situations and cases. And you know, what you were talking about, John, uh, about the leadership, right? You know, as a leader, they spend so much time on tasks and purposes, you know, during business hours. Um, and as an NCO, yeah, you need to check on your troops after, you know, when they're on their off times and such. But how many leaders actually spend time with their troops off duty really getting to know their family, really like saying, okay, as as a as a young man or woman, you know, being appropriate here, you know, um you know, how do you be an adult? Like, how can I teach you how to be an adult? Part of the problem with some of the leadership is you have a got a lot of young leaders who have never really experienced life outside of the military as well. So there's challenges there. And then when you get out and you're thrown into all these real-world problems, because I'm gonna be blunt about this. You're sheltered in the military, you're sheltered from corporate America problems, a lot of the blue-collar problems, you know, where's my next paycheck coming from? How am I gonna be able to afford health insurance? Like those things you take it for granted, and you and but leadership doesn't really ever train you for that next piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

And absolutely not. And and and and just to for Amber's point, and and thank you, Katie, for coming in. Um, Katie lost her significant other, Jeremy, um, to his internal war as well. So um we want to thank you for coming in, Katie, and um definitely recognize you for your the sacrifice and struggles that you've had to make as well. And I and listen, I just want to highlight Amber, she's also an author. Um, I met Amber through several other sources, which we won't name. She's an awesome person, she's an author, she does consulting, um, just outstanding person. So check out her books, check out her website, and thank you for being in here tonight, Amber. Um, so one of the one of the questions I want to ask is John brought this up, and it was how so many of our young young service members getting out, or even while they're still in, they're still you they they find these vices to get hooked on and they start deteriorating from the from the inside, right? So I have personal stories of these vices of what that looks like. Do either of you have any of those personal stories where it's it's you know, you found yourself struggling from the inside due to a certain vice or a certain addiction or just something, just you know, whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

Bet Sean. I you know, for me, most in most cases, it it came down to control, right? Uh, chaos for me was control because it allowed me to solve problems that were real like in my face, uh, and just one of the more that was in front of me, the more I felt at peace or at calm. I could like start dissecting the problem. And oftentimes it was me creating that problem in that in those environments just so I could fix it. Um, and that does become an addiction. Like that's chasing the chaos. Chaos is an addiction.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

Yeah, I agree with that one hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

So for me, mine wasn't, you know, drugs, alcohol, or anything.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

that it was it was controlling situations and thinking that I had for lack of better terms you know a a a a superman complex nothing could take me down uh but that could have been so much further than the truth correct well absolutely mine come mine comes more from the the advocacy side of things you know after being in the military is kind of feeling like I had to do more you know like I had to be there and that really ate me up because the deeper you dive into advocacy especially when you're doing the groundwork and I mean that look there's many factors in advocacy there's plenty of roles in it but when you're on the ground and you're in those dark moments you you don't realize what that's doing to you as an advocate like you're just wearing yourself down you know so and that's why like one thing every almost a video I do anything I put out you know I try to remind everybody look if you're an advocate thank you but listen take care of yourself because I drove myself down to like the bottom you know sitting with veterans um and I think I mentioned it the last show but you know I one point I was sitting with a veteran who was highly intoxicated he served in the Navy he had just lost his wife that day um 35 years and you know this is a guy sitting there with a gun you know what I mean sheriff's department's on the outside going we're not going in you know and I'm thankfully they didn't because it probably wouldn't have gone the way it did but you know there's so many different factors and when you're in there you kind of like just keep entrenching yourself and entrenching yourself and then I got to the point where I was like whoa like I can't help somebody if I can't take care of me and so that's why uh for the last two years I've been kind of like on the sideline you know and it's just take care you got to take care of yourself and that's my thing that was an addiction for me like I had to be there I had to be there I had to be there yeah mine for me was the the first phase of that was when I first got out I had to go through two and a half years of exposure therapy and I made a promise to myself that I was not going to turn to alcohol I was not going to turn to any kind of vices until I could to get back on my feet and mentally I was capable of handling anything because I wasn't at that time.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And then those that slowly turned into an addiction or just the use of sleeping pills to end the days because I was hurting mentally so bad that what people saw on the outside was uh I went to the gym, I went to work I was smiling and probably some of the some of the time that I've known Amber was probably some of this time that you know when we after I was done outside advocating for everybody else I would come home and try to drown out everything with sleeping pills so I just couldn't take it anymore. And that was the reality for me was I was hiding it so well that I be it became addictive that I would meticulously plan my day to know exactly when I would be home exactly when I would take them and exactly how long it took for those pills to kick in so I wouldn't hurt anymore.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

You know the other thing the other thing is like when we're talking about advocacy or even mental health providers James I I know you're you're in the mental health space uh directly and indirectly um me as well and have been in the past of I've been an intensive in-home therapist for at-risk youth and things but everybody needs to know this even therapists need therapists and advocates need advocates it's it's it's not just one person can bear the weight forever they still have to offload those those traumas that they are helping you know work through with people and um because the burnout is real.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Very much so yes I've I've stood on the on ground on scene at 2 30 three o'clock in the morning in Pooler Georgia for a port police officer that was threatening to take her her life and I I helped the police officers navigate the situation of how to get the weapons away from her of how to this this is what you this is this is what we need to do here. Because at that time the police officers didn't have the training they needed either john just said it if that the if the police officers would have been allowed inside it probably would have ended very badly and I I've seen those situations and I've been in and I've been yeah inadvertently I work in the mental health field but I've been in a mental mental health advocate for the past six seven years and it's rough and you you it's really easy to lose sight of yourself or even your family. You have to be very careful too that you don't dedicate all your time to doing the advocacy work and then putting your family in the rear view. Because I am complete I am completely guilty of that one. And I've gotten in trouble quite a bit for it. So but it's someone's gotta you know exactly it it catches up with you fast. I I would say in the in the last three years since moving to Florida I feel so much more at peace to where I don't have to chase the control and and my environment my which is my support system my my refuge my home the people I surround myself with they're not sucking the energy and the life from me because I've set boundaries to say you know what I'm gonna give a little bit and if there's something that comes back in return that's worth that's worth giving a little more to but if it doesn't come back then I'm wasting my time that's something that's something to be said too it's very important who you surround yourself with and how calm you stay or if like I I can actually say that since we've been doing working with Nautical salute and been up to Florida with your lovely family and y'all have made us family it absolutely the things that used to stress me out or used to throw me over the edge I feel like I have a better support system now where if that were to happen again I could just pick up the phone and even send a text and say hey I'm I'm hurting or it's just I don't know if the people you put around yeah the the the people you put around you is is very significant to your healing and how you maintain yourself.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

I agree with that but Sean one word that stood out to me that you said that hits the nail on the head with every aspect of life boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries when you set positive boundaries no matter what it is that you're doing especially in the veteran advocacy world you alleviate a lot of your stress yeah 100% and um that took me a very very it was like a hard lesson for me to learn that bound the the boundary of what's the first of all in the advocacy world we think we can save everybody that is just not the case you can't save everybody and you know as much as we want to um it's just not that way and so the boundaries that you set for yourself no matter what you're doing in life I think that is the key to success yeah talking about the people that we have around us you know Rich who's actually off my left here who's who's assisting and and running banners and and being you know doing what he does from an engineering side for us you know he's gotten to see a different side even of me this past week because he's with me working at the military base but you know some of the situations that I would have handled totally different in the past I I now look at it completely different because of the last three three and a half years where I have set boundaries for myself it's not it's not the boundaries isn't just for everybody else it's it's for me too to say I'm not gonna allow myself to go this far or expose too much for this I'm gonna take a breath slow down do it right and reach out to the people and get out of them the most I can for the situation right not for me the if anybody ever goes into it looking at it from a personal gain perspective they're gonna continue to struggle like you know hey I've got to save I've got to save everybody I've got this the savior complex right um but trusting and learning how to trust the right people with that peace and that and that refuge like that takes time.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah oh yeah welcome in ginger thank you so boundaries are great and what I love about boundaries is have you noticed too when you set boundaries for yourself that when you start to change that you start those boundaries that protect you maybe don't sit well with others and so they start to you know they start to you know to talk about you you know talk down about you because your your boundaries that you put to protect yourself to protect to protect your own peace you know how quickly people will turn on you once you start to protect yourself it's crazy.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Well it's easy to be a cheerleader when they're all included and you're doing all the work but when you have but when you say okay whoa it's a hundred percent it's not me give 50 James gives 50 and the scraps left over because there's still 50 to be given or received by somebody so a hundred everything's it's a relationship it's all 100% by everybody to make it work.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Absolutely yeah and the it took but it takes even in the mental health world you when you work around therapists that do this for a living it's really difficult for them to to reach out and take care of themselves because that we've already said it once that burnout is real and when you deal with this day in and day out people people look at you as like super superhuman but you you still have the same emotions and trauma to deal with like everyone carries their own set of trauma it may look different for you or I but at some point everyone's dealing or battling some kind of trauma.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Now let me ask this question John and even to James both of you did you become self-aware of of your addiction to control or sleeping pills or whatever it was or did somebody else bring bring that awareness to you that there was a problem that they had with it I'll let John answer that one.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

So for me I think don't get me wrong I mean people come up to me and be like hey man you need to take a break you need to take you know what I mean but for me I think a lot of it was self-aware because I found myself being more disgruntled you know with situations and and not responding the way I used to respond to things or just being annoyed by situations and uh you know and one thing about James knows about me is I traveled everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

You know like I would one I would be in Texas the next thing you know you're going to sleep I'm waking up and I'm in like New York you know uh so not only on top of the advocacy part I did a lot of traveling on top of that but I think I more or less became self-aware that I needed to step away like I needed the break I needed to figure things out uh and and I did learn so much about myself when I did that you know how was that how was that received by other people honestly um the people closest to me they understood you know the people that you know were affiliated with walk for vets the people that would have been there with me they got it you know and I don't think I really went in depth you know with a conversation about it but they saw it you know they saw me being worn down by just being everywhere I could be when I needed to be there and it was definitely needed you know and for the other people look I'm the type of person um if you can't tell me I don't even want to know about it you know like you know you hear people rumbling and you hear it through this person you hear it through that person like if you're not gonna come to me and tell me what you have to say I don't even want to hear it you know so uh it's just I just needed the I needed the break I needed to to figure things out and and learn how to navigate all of this yeah mine unfortunately came from it was self-aware but it was after like a significant loss and not loss to death but loss of a relationship because about this time in my life when I was relying on these pills to get me through the night and just start just where I could wake up and start over again I had completely fractured my relationship with my children and my mental capacity to take care of myself was diluted and so I could with my without me being able to take care of myself I couldn't even I wasn't taking care of the children like I like I needed to and so by the time I realized I had this problem unfortunately that most of the damage was already done and you know that relationship was already fractured and that still haunts me to this day that that that never happened or that I I could have done something better. But yeah it was it was more self-aware once once I realized what what had happened what what was the result of me doing that and then I all the relationships that hurt all the people in my life I pushed away all of those things that when you're lost in that all I could see was work gym eat sleeping pills I didn't see anything around me but that was that was so toxic from my life but I didn't I didn't know that until I started losing people around me and I had to do something about it you know now can I ask a vulnerable question to both of you guys I know I've been asking quite a few questions and not answering but at the same time of those relationships and how those situations made you guys feel at any point throughout your service did any of the training or any of your leadership ever have enough world experience to have conversations with you to prepare you for any of that no I was the ex I was the experience I was helping some of my leaders navigate some of their problems well I take I take that back I had one NCO that was phenomenal um his name was sergeant first class spring um it was two actually it was I had an officer and an NCO it was um at the time he was it was major thompson and it was it was sergeant first class spring and if I had any mentors in that military time period where I could go to somebody and talk to or that you know because I didn't develop this this this crisis or this this addiction to these sleeping pills till way after I got out but if it was if there were two leaders in my military career that shaped me or if I needed something I could go to that would I they would honestly answer me and give me good advice it was them two they were they were probably the two most sound leaders I've ever had that wore military uniform.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

You know when it comes to my side of things the advocacy side of things you know there's been a few people that have been close to me one of them I did serve with uh Sergeant Jesse Claren he's walked with me in Florida the entire Gulf he was a he's always been a great mentor for me to call and be like hey what about this? What about that? You know what do you think about this? You know, straightforward you know and then I have you know James has met Jason and and he's Jason's been like a brother to me you know we met in Texas walking um he's been my go-to for not just walk stuff but life stuff you know I think he was probably the second person that knew about Trey um because I was in a situation where my mind wasn't on right I had no idea what I was doing I was going in a direction and like call him up and I'm like dude like tell him his emotions kick in and then I'm like asking him a question and he was able he was able to be that person you know so I have good people in my life um that have that have been there to to support me when I'm down and out you know and I remember I remember when we heard about Trey and I was very um cautious but then you know I did reach out to John and he did confirm everything.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

But John's always been one of those guys too that no matter what organization we're with or no matter what we're doing in the community he's always right there whether whether if he's walking across the United States or he's still available there if you need him. So yeah John and I have known each other for a long time and that's that's just a a relationship that's developed over those years and turned into very a very good trustworthy relationship. And what I like about this is I'm developing the Sean relate same relationship with Sean and Jen and Rich that our family in Florida now. So I can see the the characteristics between those two trustworthy relationships developing at the same time and it's it's yeah it goes back to it matters who you keep around you.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Absolutely because if when you find yourself in that dark spot rock bottom do you have the support system around you that's going to understand you yeah and then like it's the purpose too like the mission you know what what is your intent? What are you trying to get out of this? You know what is your motive and when you're around like minded people that you know are willing to be like look this is this is not in my realm. I cannot do this but I can call James I can call Sean and this I know one of those guys can I don't have to try to fight through something that I don't know how to navigate. And that's where that working relationship everybody said you said earlier 100% that's working at 100% knowing that you don't always have the answers but knowing that you have people you can trust that you can send somebody to that you can all work together to help somebody get through something. And I think a lot of times when you're on a looking at organizations you're not seeing that you know you have organizations out there that work well with others you do but there's a lot of times when you're looking at relate uh these these organizations it's like an internal thing like we're only staying in-house we're not gonna work with other people they're not gonna broadcast that but they show you in in other signs you know what and that's what's huge about this is I think you and I have had this conversation this week John is the organizations you choose to partner with should be those organizations that are sharing other people like people's like minded values.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Like if if another organization in your area is doing something positive and they're helping Helping somebody, we should not be afraid to share their Facebook post. Put them out there for the good work that they're doing. And a lot, you do have a lot of organizations that can become selfish when they're when they're trying to take all that credibility and they don't want to and they don't want to turn around and say, hey, you know what? We're not doing this alone. There are these other organizations that that believe in the same thing we do. And we're all doing this together. Because that's, I mean, you that's that's what one of the first things we aligned with Nautical Salute was I quickly realized how straightforward and honest Sean was to this to this mission and what we do. And it directly reminded me of when I first met you about learning and walking across the country. And like I said, motives. Why are you why are why does Sean run this organization the way he does? Why does John walk across the country? Why do we partner and align ourselves with certain people? I like to call it a moral compass. My moral compass is I is it it's pretty it's pretty strict. And you know, the if if you if you align with my moral compass, you know it because I'm closest to you. But there there are there are people, it just doesn't, their moral compass doesn't align with what we do, and you and you have to, and that's just that's just a part of life.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I agree with that 100%.

SPEAKER_04 45:33

Hey, real quick, real quick, we've got we've got a few other more people. Katie, uh Katie Beth back in here. Um Philomena Philomena White. Uh we've got Doug from Vet Legacy Road to 100, uh, who we're gonna be spending time with in August. Um can't wait to meet you in Jacksonville Beach. And um, yeah, we you know you know the alignment piece is people should never be afraid to put someone else out in front of them and support them and drive their cause so long as it's a worthy cause built behind honesty integrity, the moral compass, um, and and just good human being, like like just good old family values, right? Because if you come to my table, I'm gonna make sure you eat.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and and and Katie's in here, and so I you know, we we don't talk about this a lot, but it's another program. I just y'all don't mind. I did when when we learned about Trey's passing, we we did let John's family know of the programs that we've been running. But so Katie is actually one of our mentors on the the family outreach, um, outreach prevention panel. So we basically have on our website, if you've lost a warrior to suicide and you're and you're lost in that grief journey and you don't know where to go, and you don't know what to what the coroner's report has to say, all the little things that you're going to go through in that loss, we have a panel already put there for you. And Katie is a valuable Katie is a valuable member of that. She, you know, she she wanted to make a difference. So I want to highlight her for being selfless and making herself available in the time of her own trauma to be a part of that panel and help others that reach out to us. So, yeah, and if you're listening and you are struggling with a loss to suicide and you're dealing with grief that you don't know how to navigate, go to heroismthesky.org, read their bios. We have all represent relationships represented. Someone we'll we'll connect you with somebody who can walk you through the grief process. And you know, the resources that we that the resources and the people we meet along the way are are very significant to our success.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

And the other thing I think that's important to share with us real quick, John, is you know, grief, grief doesn't have a time time frame. It's not it it ebbs and flows, and there's memories, there's things, there's there's sense, there's there's things that bring all that back.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

And you know, well, and then and so go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

Well, I was just gonna say, like when it came to walking and advocating in that fashion, um, meeting organizations all across the country, meeting veterans all across the country, you know, I would walk into a town, hear a veteran story, you know, and stories would stand out to me. You know, they would jump out at me. I'd go two towns down the road and I would tell that guy's story, that woman's story, and somebody'd be there like, oh my goodness, that's me. I can relate. And then sometimes I was able to connect those people, you know, two towns away, going through the same thing. And the next thing you know, they're friends, they're talking, and they're helping each other navigate what each other are feeling. And then not just that, but getting involved with these organizations, talking to these organizations and connecting people, connecting the dots all across the country and and walking, you have so much time to do that. You know, that's it's a very slow process.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

If that, yeah, you got a lot of time to think when you're walking that many miles, don't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:47

But but also what your advocacy and and that piece of it, what that does though for a lot of people is you know, when they connect with somebody who's been through similar walks of life or in similar shoes and have have experienced you know, similar type of situations, it and they're prospering, it gives hope that you know they're not gonna forget, obviously, but like they can they can live somewhat, you know, one through peace and connection, you know because I think oftentimes, you know, having an experience lost personally as well, and um through my service and in my personal life is I actually and I I look forward to having and sharing those memories with those people that I did experience you know these tragedies with, but at the same time, it it is a connection, and I know not everybody wants to relive those, but if you can focus on the positive things as much as possible and put a smile on your face, think about something goofy and silly, and like that does help.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Yeah, yeah, and and too, you know, the first part of this has been about advocacy and what what's worked and and and the how the relationships and the people we've met along the way have helped with our our success in healing. But the second half of this episode, unfortunately, is goes into a little bit of the the other side that I really that what this is the reason we created this podcast. We created the podcast to spread positivity, we we we created the podcast to put other people's word out there and talk about important topics of that transition from armed services life to civilian life, but then we have to talk about suicide and those families that have dealt with it, the aftermath of it. It's in our title, and that's what tonight what we want to remind people and we want to talk a little bit about for the second half of the show is that when you have a family or you have someone that loses a child, that loses a parent or a sibling, they see life completely different. You know, that person, the the character that that person used to be before the loss might not even exist anymore because the the the silent weight of that loss they carry on their shoulders every day. And that you you see a different person and rightfully so.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

Yeah. I know I know we're getting ready to go, I believe, to a commercial break. And um I believe if you uh got everything queued up, we'll go do that, and then when we come back, we'll get into the second half of the show.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, let me um I got it, Rich, because I'll have to um So we'll what give us about we're gonna play this video and then we'll take about a four-minute break. We're gonna come back and then we'll talk with John about what that loss of suit after suicide looks like, how it impacts families.

SPEAKER_06 53:28

I used to think healing was supposed to sound heroic, like victory speeches, like metals hitting a wooden table, like somebody finally saying, You made it. But healing, healing sounded more like silence. Like sitting in the truck too long after work, because home felt safer when the engine was still running. Like staring at a grocery store aisle, trying to remember why your heart suddenly started racing. Like waking up at 2.13 in the morning, sweating through memories you never asked to keep. See, they trained us to survive the battlefield, but nobody really taught us how to survive ourselves afterward. Nobody talked about how trauma follows you home wearing civilian clothes, how it hides in fireworks, crowded rooms, empty bottles, divorced papers, missed phone calls, and a sentence. I'm fine. Especially that sentence. I know veterans who carried entire teams on deploy that struggle to carry groceries inside the house now. Men and women who could navigate chaos overseas but can't navigate their own thoughts when the woman gets quiet. Still, they wake up. Still, they fight. That matters. You hear me? That matters. Because hope isn't always loud. Sometimes hope is just making the appointment, answering the phone, talking for the first time, saying, No. I don't think I'm okay. That's courage, too. Maybe even the purest kind. See, the world loves the image of the warrior, but healing asks something harder. It asks the warrior to become human again. To let people in. To trust again. To stop apologizing. Nobody can see. And that process gets ugly sometimes. The kids laugh after sleepers. Brothers and sisters sitting around the table. Stranger. That's where he would be. But in realizing that Charlie doesn't get too right here. You can't every veteran is still fighting the battle. Nobody sees you are not weak for eating. You are not forgotten. And your story.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

There we go. Yeah, so welcome back. And if you watch that video, you're you guys saw some of the statistics of what we're about to talk about and the effects that suicide does have on families.

SPEAKER_03 57:57

James, can you hear me?

SPEAKER_01 57:58

Oh, I gotcha. It was me. Can you hear me now?

SPEAKER_04 58:07

Can you hear him now? You may have to drop it back out.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah, hold on. Round two. Back in. Can you hear me now? No.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Alright, so I'm gonna remove you and then use there we go. Use that link to come back in because I can hear everybody fine.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Yeah. I don't know why I did it, but see that was crazy because he was already in here. Yeah, so hey. But when he comes back, I I'm gonna tell you, you know, this man's been through it. And James, you know him. So maybe maybe you speak a little bit about him uh just from a personal side of what kind of man he is, and we'll get it back up in here.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

Here we go. I'm here now. I can hear you.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

I don't know what's perfect. Okay, here we go. So everybody, welcome back. Um, now we are going into the phase where we're gonna go into some difficult conversations of what suicide does to families, but we want to give a better introduction to John, and I I just feel like I should be the person to do that because I've known John for four or five, six years. It's probably it's been a while. And just a great human being. He's walked half probably all across this country in advocacy for other veterans to raise awareness for mental health. And recently um he'll tell his story, but he is a strong human being, but recently he's dealt with his own trauma and he he's lost his he's lost a warrior to to suicide. And so he's got the courage to come talk with us today about that. So we just want to ask everyone to give him the grace and that that he needs. And if it gets, and then John, if it gets tough or if it gets tight, let us know. We can change the subject. Um, but it's just more about how families like yours have learned to love differently or protect their peace just maybe a little bit harder from what the grief and and trauma that you've been through due to the loss.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

Yeah, so I mean it's you say eye-opening, but it's definitely much more than that. You know, um, I would say you're you're never prepared for that phone call. Uh, I was the first one in Trey's immediate family to get that phone call. Um his fiance's uh stepfather called me. He was a Marine veteran. And uh I I saw him pop up on my phone. It was January 7th of this year, and I actually thought it was my neighbor and uh because they're both named Doug. And so when I answered the phone, I I kind of started out by like, dude, are you ever gonna take your Christmas lights down? And I I threw Doug completely off because he's calling me to like change my entire life, you know? And he's like, John, I I think you might have the wrong Doug, and I'm like, Oh, hey man, what's up? And he tells me, and it's a repeat. What did you just say? And it's shock, it's immediate shock, you know. Um my second thought was his mom, his siblings. And I didn't want his mom finding out from a sheriff's department. Luckily, um they live in the town next to me, and that became my mission. I needed to be the one to tell even though like like I don't put that conversation on anybody ever. That is never something you want to look a mom in the face and say to her, especially when it's your own child. And uh I'll never I'll never forget that. That's never gonna go away. You said something earlier that you're never the same, and I will never be the same as I was on January 6th. We we all handle this differently, you know, and that's one thing very important if you have gone through this, and hopefully you never have to go through this. Just understand that everybody goes through this differently, they grieve differently, they process differently. Um being in the veteran world and going back prior to Trey, I've been around this. I've been around families that have endured this loss. I've sat with them, I've talked to them, I've helped them navigate the grieving process. Not me as a counselor, but me as an ear, as me as in connecting them with other people that could help them. And so I I have a granddaughter that will never know her father. She'll know who he is through his family and through his her mom and her family, but she's gonna be um two in November. And it's just it's a pain that y you can't describe. Um I you know I'm trying to think about that week because uh if if anybody's ever, you know, just lost a loved one and had to be that person to to make those arrangements, like there's no time to grieve. There's no time, there's very little time for process because it is such a fast-paced, you know, you you lose somebody. The next day you're on the phone and you're you're making arrangements and you're starting this process and it goes on for a week to two weeks, and the next thing you know, like, oh all that's over, you know, and now what? And that's when the actual processing begins. But I will say that I consumed myself with the other people, you know, checking on my daughters, checking on Wyatt, my my other son, you know, checking on on my ex-wife, checking on my grandkids, Trey's fiance. Like I consumed myself with with being that person for for so long and like during that process that there I I do think a big part of me it was it helped me get through it if that makes sense. Um going back, you know, I I've been dealing with suicide since I worked in the prison system since 02. Um it happened all the time, you know, and you you dealt with that, but nothing prepares you for being your child. And and going back to what I said about everybody grieving differently, for me, doing this is what's helping me get through that process, but that's not everybody, you know. You see moms, dads, siblings, spouses, they start organizations. You know, they they start organizations to honor their loved one, and I commend them for that because you're taking the most horrific time of your life and you're trying to turn it into a positive thing to help other people. And for me, you know, Walk for Vest was established back in well as Buddy Watch Walk in 2019, and everything I've done to this point, or everything I've done prior to Trey is no different other than other than trying to put myself in those family shoes, I'm walking in it now. You know, I'm I'm there, I'm doing it, you know, and I hate that, but if my if I could take my horrific day and help somebody either navigate through theirs or help a veteran not go down that road, then that's what I want to do. That's what's helping me um to get through this. You know, I I I was talking to somebody the other day because there's there's for me, I've spoken to veterans that have attempted suicide, and I mean pulled the trigger suicide and have survived, they have lived to stay their side, what they were thinking, you know, and and the one thing that's out there is you hear a lot of people say is that well, we got to remind these struggling veterans about their family and this and that. And and what I try to tell people is they're not thinking about their family, you know, they're not thinking about the aftermath of their decision, their choice. Because if that was the case, it wouldn't be what it is. You know, we have veterans out there that say, like I had a veteran I met, um shot herself twice. You know, she lived. The last thing she remembers is looking at pictures, she didn't even remember, and lots of other veterans said that they had blacked out, that they don't recall what got them to that point, and so it's just very important that you know we align ourselves, and and that's the biggest thing with Trey. Trey struggled, you know. We all have problems. You know, Trey had problems before the military. There's things that he struggled with, but leaving from home, going in the military, going to Iraq, and getting out of the military, it was a huge difference. You know, he he closed himself off, he wasn't as close with his family that he was before, and he was struggling, and and he was deteriorating from the inside out. With moments of, you know, we we go to rehab. I take him the rehab, you know, he would uh he would do good for a while, but then it would come back, you know, he would start to spiral again, and we'd have to do it again. And then he would come out with me and advocate and you know, participate in walks, and we'd travel, and he would talk to these families, and he would hear the devastation left behind by suicide. And so for me, I don't know what Trey's last thoughts were, you know, but I can tell you I I'm pretty sure it wasn't his family, you know, and I don't I I just you know, and and when it happens, you're looking for everything, you know, you're trying to dissect everything. You're you know, you want you want answers, yeah. Like, you know, and the first thing honestly, you I I've you start thinking like maybe it wasn't him, you know, maybe this happened, or maybe that happened. Trey wouldn't do that, Trey, you know, this and that. And and that was the case in our situation, you know, and I'm sure it's the case in many other situations, you know. You start questioning, well, was it even him? Did was he mixed up in something? And you know, did this and that happen? And you're looking for anything other than that, and you come to the conclusion that they're gone, you know, and it's it's just uh it's something that a part of me will never understand, no matter how much I advocate, no matter how many people I talk to, um I'll I won't understand all of it, you know. But the only thing I can do is push forward and try to save other people. And if if Trey's story, if that if that story, if the aspect of Trey's life or Trey's struggles or or the aftermath of of what's left behind, you know, can can help a family, if it can help a veteran, uh, help somebody understand. Uh, because I Trey's never called me. I've never turned him away. You know, he he's called me several times, you know, dad, hey, I need some help, or hey, dad, this snap, oh I and I've always been there, you know, and and that that will never that will never change, you know. That will, you know, that that was who I am, and that's who I am with all my kids. But if he would have made one more phone call, you know, if it would have been one more day, you know, I just I think it it would have made a difference, but then again, I come to the conclusion that Trey was just done. You know, he he didn't want to do this no more.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:58

Can I ask you can I ask you a question, John? Um having continuing to go through this, because it's not you went through it, you you will always be going through this uh to some degree. Um do you have you found that do you find that it's harder to advocate now because it hits so close to home? Or do you find it easier because I know you've taken a break from walking? Um and I think you're getting back into it. So how like how how does how does how does the aftermath for you affect your your outlook and your ability to advocate as as strong as you once were done?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:51

Well, it definitely changed my mission, you know, to make it more personal. But a part of it's harder and a part of it is more understood. Not easier, but just more understood. Uh the harder aspect of it is, you know, at times I question myself, you know, should I be talking about this? You know, should I be, you know, um, I don't know, you know, this is the aspect that's complicated when you have multiple family members because everybody grieves differently. Yeah, you know, some of the people in your family, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want to hear about it, they don't want, they don't want anything to do with that. They and and it's okay, like that's their way. If you want to sit in a dark room and and work your way through it, that's your choice, you know. And maybe if I wasn't already an advocate, maybe if I wasn't around this as much as I would be, would have like I was before, maybe that's the way I'd be processing it right now, or maybe not. But that's the hard part because I don't know, like, is it fair for me to talk about it? Is it fair for me to um I don't want to use the word exploit, but like in almost that aspect, that's what you feel like, you know what I mean? You're you're you're you're putting your darkest, your worst day out there, you know, and you're being vulnerable. And we know people, people take things all different ways, you know, and uh I'm just kind of afraid for that day where you know somebody makes that comment or because like we I've seen it, you know, we've all seen it, you know. People look at things in all different perspectives, but I'm just confused to like myself is like I don't I don't know. It's it's really hard for me to explain. I I just I'm so scrambled up in my head about it. Um, I want to use like I don't I don't want to use, I want to share Trey Story to help other people, but at the same time, I don't know what limit that you know what I mean. It's just it's I don't know if you guys can understand what I'm saying. And sorry, folks, if I'm babbling, like I'm trying to to navigate something I probably have never talked about.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:39

So well, you're navigating grief that probably a lot of people haven't felt, and so you definitely deserve all the grace that that comes with that. And you know, we're just grateful you have the courage to come on here and talk about it with what you are, and you are right. I mean, there are I've had comments before about our Deterrence Through Truth series where we interview families directly and we deep dive into that loved one and you know what happened before, what happened after, asking if I felt like that was like an exploitation of that family. And I I never thought it was because we we we the family member they they knew exactly what that was before they agreed to do it. But like you're saying, you you might get some negative comments like that from people from other perspectives that don't see it the way you do.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:34

See, I'm stuck in that world of advocacy and dad. You know what I mean? So, like you're looking at it right there, I've seen the same thing, you know. I've I've done posts in the past talking about veterans and seen the same, you know, responses. And so like I'm stuck in the world of advocacy, dad, you know, and and that is a very it's a it is a really tricky thing to to navigate. Um, but it goes back to what I've done in the past and the veterans that I have reached that you know reach out and be like, dude, you know, because of that walk, I'm still here today, or dude, because of this, you know, I'm I'm still my family and we're doing great, and my kids know me, and this and that. It takes me back to those moments where if I can change that one person's life, sharing Trey's story is worth it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:36

And and I would absolutely 100% agree because we never know who's watching it currently. We never know who's gonna be watching it at 2:30, 3 o'clock in the morning when they can't sleep. Um, and we and we don't even know who's gonna just see a heroes in the sky shirt or or a nautical salute or even about the walks that you do, John. It's gonna lead people back to these moments where they can actually have a connection as well in their space, their time. And you know, sometimes just having that connection of wow, like they've been through something like I have. Like that's enough to kind of bring some level of relief and slowly in time. How do I get involved? Like, or how do how do I take the next step in my healing? Right? What does that next step look like? Which is why I think it's fantastic, you know, James, that you've got you know, the panelists, you know, that people can reach out to to have a sense of connecting with somebody who's who's lived a trauma as well, like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

Yeah, I mean, we were um, I was a past commander of American Legion Post 296 in Mineola, Texas, and Trey was a member there at one point. And so, you know, when Trey passed, the Post reached out and said, Hey, we would like to do a memorial for Trey, you know, and and so went out there and you know, a lot of great folks came out and you know supported Trey and what was going on. And I remember I was at the post and my I was keeping my composure, you know, I was keeping my composure. I mean, I just spent like probably I don't know, that might have been three weeks after everything happened. First of all, like my face hurt, you know, for like an entire two weeks, you know, because it was just I it was uncontrollable emotion, you know. Um, and so like I'm I'm trying to keep my composure and keep my composure. And Robert and Barbie Roadie uh come walking in, and Barbie Roadie, um, they are super big supporters of Mission 22. They go over the state of Texas. Her son took his own life. That was the first person after Trey passing that I knew, like, I don't know, first parent, let's say, first parent that I've seen after Trey passing that had a similar story that was face to face with me, and I just I lost it. I lost it. And and I whispered on her ear, I remember I whispered in her ear, and I was like, hey, you know, I'm I'm sorry. I think I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure I said I'm sorry. And she was like, for what? I said, I'm sorry for all the times that I've tried to ever understand what it is that you are feeling, that you were feeling, because I know at this point right now, I never had a clue. Never had a clue. And you know that that is, I think that's where, because like so Trey passed on January 7th of this year, and fast forward not even a month, and I mentioned his name on the on the last one, not even a month later, February 6th, a marine combat vet, uh Nicholas Accord Jr. took his own life, and his dad was a marine vet. I'm a vet. So now I'm talking to a dad who served. Son followed in his footsteps, and let's just talk about that. Son follows in your footsteps, and you're the survivor.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:43

That's that's that's heavy. I like I we talked about that the last time you were on, and it's like how I couldn't imagine. And because it it's gotta play in your head of if they didn't follow them, you know, it's the what if game, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:04

It's always like the whole situation's a what if game, you know, and and that there too. And so I connected with Nickel's dad, Nick Sr. And you know, we I mean, I wouldn't say we're like friends, but we've we've messaged back and forth, you know, and we've made it known that we are there for each other, you know, and and that if he needs something, but for me, it was just Nicholas was born in 1999, Trey was born in 1999, they both, I think, were deployed around the same time. They, you know, it's just it was such a similar story, and then from that moment, February 6, 26, there's probably eight more, not the same situation, but eight more veterans that I have learned about that, and there's much more, we know there's much more, but I'm saying just me personally, where I'm just like, you know, that's James's statistics that he shares, how many people when I heard James say that the first time, I was like, because you know, we did 22, 22, 22. I mean, that's when it all started, you know. We talked about 22, 22, and everybody was 22. But those statistics, knowing what I know now, makes absolute it's it's it's absolutely the way it is, you know. And for our situation, it was almost five family members, you know. I think you said five family members directly impacted by it, and then you had a hundred plus, you know, uh 129, 135. It's 135, which you know was pretty pretty close. I mean, I wouldn't I didn't count them, but close, you know. And then yeah, just multiply that by all of it's it's devastating. And so the fact that I know that John's not, it's like anything else, as a veteran, when we're advocating, when you're a veteran struggling and you're sitting there with another veteran struggling in a similar situation, and you you find it inside of you to pull yourself out of it and look at that other person and say, we can do this. It's like an internal thing, brother. You're going through the same thing I'm going through. You connect, you help each other pull out of it. It's the same thing in this situation. I see the families, the wives, the mothers, the dads, the siblings, and they're going through this. They are what motivating me now. There, it used to be, it used to be the veteran to veteran. It used to be like, you know, seeing somebody suffering, them getting better, it motivated me, it motivated. Now it's me knowing that there are so many families out there that have endured this, that have navigated this, and and a lot of times with very little support. Yeah. You know, that's the biggest thing. Very little support. And you're lost. How many, how many veterans that are struggling sit there and talk to their family about the VA system? How many family members actually know how to navigate the VA at all? So something like this happens, that veterans no longer here. They're that family's like left in the dark. And that's when you have to find that good organization that that can help navigate you through that process.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:01

Real quick, John, um Doug Wilkerson uh from Vet Legacy uh has a question uh that he would like to ask because I did open it up to questions just in case anybody wanted to. Uh he says, what do you feel is the biggest is your biggest impact or change that can help to prevent this currently? And he said, sorry if this question seems inappropriate, but um what do you feel is the biggest your biggest impact or change that can help prevent this?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:36

Um this might not be everybody's answer, but I do think this falls more on the military and a little bit of what we talked about earlier about people getting out. Uh, I will tell you that when Trey left the military, um, he was already battling substance abuse. He was pushed out the door, you know. Um, no help. You know, I will tell you I was walking across the state of Arizona and I got a phone call almost right after Trey's deployment. And his NCO calls me and says, Hey, uh, is this Mr. Ring? I said, Yes. He said, Uh, I'm your son's NCO. I just want to let you know he got a DUI. He's in jail. I said, Okay, go get him. He's like, What? I said, Go get him. That's your soldier. Go get him. Jimmy's walking next to me, retired NASA sergeant, 25 years, and he's like, go get him. Oh, sorry, sir, we don't do that no more. Jimmy's like, what are you talking about? We don't do that no more. I was in for 25 years. 20 of my years in the military, I was getting guys out of jail. What do you mean we don't do that no more? And so like I had to get them bailed out, then they went to go pick them up, bring them back. Did they get him in treatment? Yeah. Probably get put your uniform back on, get out there, bud.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:08

Probably gave him consequences.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:13

So to answer your question, Doug, um, I I believe it's while these guys, gals are in the military, helping them rather than trying to dismiss them and get them out the door and not make them your problem anymore. And then it's also making the process easier for people when they get out to get the help they need. Um before they get in trouble. Before they get in trouble, before they go down that road, before they lose that honor that they had while wearing the uniform. You know, you take somebody that was a great soldier, they get out, they don't know how to navigate outside. Very quickly do they lose that image, that honor, that self-respect, that confidence. They lose it almost immediately. And then you just throw roadblock after roadblock after roadblock. And now they're spiraling, they have nowhere to go. And by the time they get to someplace that can help them, where are we at?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:26

Yeah, and you know, we're we're gonna we're gonna um close out here soon, you know. Um, but I will say that I've how many conversations have you and I had, Sean, that those retention NCOs know who is not staying in months in advance.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:44

They know the service members that typically are there typically six to twelve months before they ETS because they're not allowing them to re-enlist or they're just leaving because they're done, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:59

Yeah, because they know well in advance when they're not getting out. At that point, that's when you give them a list of these are the mental health providers that will that in your area that you can start, you know, you can start utilizing. That these are resources you can use other than writing a resume, other than this is what looks good on paper, that you have that that six to twelve month time window is your time to start giving them the tools they need to be successful once you hand them the DD214 and say, Okay, we're done. You're done. You have that time, we're just not using it properly.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:36

Look, I and at the end of the day, that DD214, that should almost be like the diploma. Like if you think about it, right? You've done all the hard work while you served, and you've done the hard work so you can leave and graduate, right? So there has to be that wind down that I also believe pairs them with a successfully transitioned service member that goes beyond just, you know, I'm a real estate agent, nothing against anybody else, right here. But and I'm gonna pair them with you know a peer that has only been a truck driver, right? That doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:27

You know, Trey, there was a part of Trey, and I won't say any names on this, but I I talked to somebody pretty high up on Fort Hood back in those days. Trey was also a part of a situation that happened, and it wasn't just Trey, right? It was a lot of soldiers that were struggling. They were kicked out or like pushed out the door with no resources because that was around the time that Vanessa Gillen on Fort Hood. And so DC came in there and cleaned house, and they just goodbye. And a lot of the soldiers that came off of that deployment, that that last appointment, that were struggling were shown the door. So, you know, politics plays a role in this too. Let's not, you know, I mean, I'm not going down that road, but you know, the political aspect of the military plays a role in this as well. I'll say that.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:35

You know, um in the comments, real quick, you know, before I know we're getting ready to wrap this up, but you know, the TAPS class, right? The transition programs, um, you know, they're geared towards check writing resumes, you know, whatever. Um, not really the root of the problem. Oh, okay, file for your disability, you know, within 12 months of getting out. Um but you know, the TAP program in its current state does not address it's it's not it's not a cookie cutter for everybody, while it does aid certain people who might have had a different experience in the military, uh, people that are geared you know towards more of the civilian life, because we we know those troops while you're in, you know who's really a garrison troop, a field troop, or just a troop that is really a civilian just getting a paycheck. I mean, let's be honest. So we have to find the ones that love their country, you know, and provide it for everybody, but really find the ones that love their country who joined for a purpose and who are struggling too, and and really try to give a program approach for the exit.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:54

Well, we'll we need more peer-to-peer, like is you need you need more peer-to-peer that actually matters, like peer-to-peer with you know, I love the idea of because we do have to close out, but you find, you know how many retired veterans if if a if if uh a chain of command or someone in the military or would go and say, hey, we've got these soldiers getting out. We know you recently did this and that, and try to pair you with somebody like that before you get out. Like, why aren't we doing that? Like, why aren't we now why aren't we setting these soldiers up with a peer that's already navigated getting out of the military, navigating looking for a civilian job, navigating this is where you know, this is where I went for mental health. This what these things are already there, and and it would not be that much of a task to find veterans that are already out that would do this for these soldiers getting out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:54

Like, yeah, how many veterans are like a hundred percent permanent? You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. So yeah, and I wanna, if you don't mind, I want to say something. I said something wrong, I caught myself, and I wanted to give the family respect when I mentioned Vanessa Gillen. Um, that was a sad situation. Her life was taken. I said situation, I didn't like my choice of words. I know her family, so I want to give that respect. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:22

Well, thank thank you. And we're gonna close this out with in here shortly with a with a uh word to our sponsors, but we I want to thank you for the courage. I want to thank you for the courage. I want to thank you for the years of friendship that you've not only given to me, but to hearers in the sky, to every other organization that I've been affiliated with. You've always been there, and I want to say that that's a relationship that will continue on for years and years as much as we trust you. And we appreciate that. I want to say thank you to Nautical Salute, Jen, Sean, Rich. Y'all are amazing. Become family. We'll be a partner. Y'all are stuck with us. That's what y'all tell us. You're stuck. So you're stuck. Yeah. And I also want to tell everyone in the comments tonight we had a very active comment section. We are grateful for you for joining us, for sharing your feelings. There were people in the comments tonight of all of all representations. We have people in the comments that have lost warriors to suicide. We had people in the comments that that not only lost warriors to suicide, but may have started organizations to help other people. And so, and then we had people in the comments that what I like to serve, and they're still serving once they take the uniform off. And that's really important to us. It's a great audience to have. So we're gonna I'll I'm gonna give like one final word, and you know, we'll give you your final statement before we close out, and we'll go into that um that that final, we'll go into our sponsors, then we'll go into the video, and then just hang out in the lobby there and we'll close it out, John. But so we'll start with you, Sean, as we close out. Um, what are we what are we everyone listening that may watch this two, three in the morning, what do we tell them?

SPEAKER_04 1:39:11

Number one, I'm gonna tell you you're not alone. Um that you know you can reach any of us. Um, and when we see it, we'll respond. Um that you know, don't let the dark days win.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:29

Awesome. John, what what do you got to tell somebody that's maybe can't sleep watching this two, three in the morning?

SPEAKER_03 1:39:36

Well, if you're a veteran, thank you for your service. If you're a veteran and you know somebody's struggling, make it your service, help that person out, get them in contact with somebody, watch your people, watch your people, make sure everybody's good, check on them. Advocates, thank you for all you do. Um, you know, it's it you're you're a big part of all this, whether you served or didn't serve, and to uh all the families that have lost someone to suicide. Uh it's a horrible situation that does not go away. Uh, for those of you that have come out of it and became an advocate, a fighter, I commend you for that. It is not easy to to navigate any of that. So so thank you for that. And and I just want to say that I, you know, James, you you talked about our relationship. You know, I love what you're doing. Sean, we haven't met yet. There's gonna have to be some fishing going on here or something. Um, you know, we we can we could talk more on a boat, or I don't even care if we're sitting on a bridge. Whatever August 22nd.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:47

Well, August 22nd, we're gonna be in Jacksonville Beach.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:50

So Well, the next day I think I'm gonna I'm gonna make an appearance down in Jack's Beach.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:56

Hey, that'd be great. That'd be great. You know, even if we don't go on the even if we don't go on the boat, we gotta have a beach right there. We actually have a beach right there.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:04

Let's how about let's make a pact right now, us three and whoever else. While we're all in Jacksonville, let's all get together, let's all have some camaraderie, let's fish, let's do whatever. Let's get together as brothers and let's just combine and have a good time. Absolutely. All right. So um I'm just gonna close this out. I want to thank Daniel Evot's in here. I remember him back when I was, you know, early in the advocacy stages. I just want to, it's good to hear from him and and I remember talking with him, and I'm I'm grateful for him to be back in here with us and to be watching this. So, Daniel, thank you so much. I miss you too. We'll catch up soon anytime. And I'm grateful for everyone around me that has made this journey possible for me. And if y'all didn't catch it earlier, my mother was in these comments.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:58

Yeah, she was.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:00

Yeah, so there my mom's starting to become part of these comments. So when I talk about some of these right, so when when I start talking about some of these darker days that even they don't know about, I always get those phone calls the next day that like we had no idea. So I want to thank everyone for just giving me the chance to talk and get that stuff out there. Um, we're gonna close this out. John, real quick, um, give give the people your website if they want to get a hold of you to get more involved with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:32

Simple, walkforbets.org. You follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and visit our website. Anything, we have a walk on July 4th on Hilton Head Island. It's an eight-mile walk to celebrate the 250, but also pay tribute to everybody who has ever served in our military. And then we have a walk in Nebraska on September 24th, 25th, and 26th. That's Jason's hometown walk across Kimball County. It is in the middle of nowhere, and um it's actually a very nice walk because it is in the middle of nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:07

So all right. Well, that's how you get a hold of John. If you want to get involved at those walks, email them, go to the website, get involved. I'm gonna club, I'm gonna go to our sponsors real quick. We want to thank American Legion Post 135 this year. They are title sponsors. They are located in historic downtown Savannah, Georgia at 1108 Bull Street. They are a member of the largest veteran service organization in the nation. They were founded on the principles of service to our veterans and to our community, state, and nation. Their membership is open to any veteran who has served honorably and to active duty service members. They are home to the local 1110, Betty Bombers, Brighter Day, Centennial Bean, and Lee Chai. And their bar is open to the public. The best thing about this is if you are in the Savannah, Georgia area, or even if you're not, and you want to host an event in their public space, you can rent that beautiful space and it's going to be awesome. Just tell them your friends at Heroes in the Sky sent you. And then we want to thank our realtor sponsors, Mari Bennett and Annie Montenegro. Thank you for all you give to us. And then the what I will say is if you're listening to this and you want to hear your name, your business on this podcast, and you want to be a sponsor, please reach out to either james at heroisinthesky.org or Sean at heroisinthesky.org, and we can put you on the screen and highlight what you're doing in the community as well. So with that being said, I think I think I'm gonna ask our awesome audio engineer to to lead us out.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:53

I used to think healing was supposed to sound heroic.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:59

Like victory speeches, like metals hitting a wooden table, like somebody finally saying, You made it. But healing? Healing sounded more like silence. Like sitting in the truck too long after work. Because home felt safer when the engine was still running. Like staring at a grocery store aisle, trying to remember why your heart suddenly started racing. Like waking up at 2.13 in the morning, sweating through memories you never asked to keep. See, they trained us to survive the battlefield, but nobody really taught us how to survive ourselves afterward. Nobody talked about how trauma follows you home wearing civilian clothes. How it hides in fireworks, crowded rooms, empty bottles, divorced papers, missed phone calls, and a sentence. I'm fine. Especially that sentence. Struggle to carry groceries inside the house now. Men and women who could navigate chaos overseas but can't navigate their own thoughts when the room gets quiet. Still, they wake up. Still, they fight. That matters. You hear me? That matters. Because hope isn't always loud. Sometimes hope is just making the appointment, answering the phone, talking for the first time, saying, no, I don't think I'm okay. That's courage too. Maybe even the purest kind. See, the world loves the image of the warrior, but healing asks something harder. It asks the warrior to become human again. To let people in. To trust again. To stop apologizing. For wounds nobody can see. And that process. It's ugly sometimes. There are setbacks, bad nights, anger that shows up uninvited. Days where depression feels heavier than body armor ever did. But there are awesome moments. Where light gets true. The kids laugh and surprise after a sleepless night. Brothers and sisters sitting around the table telling the truth. Strangers say me too. That's where human beginning. But in realizing the trauma doesn't get too bright. Now comes the hardest mission. Believe you deserve peace. You can't go. So that every veteran is still fighting battles. Nobody sees.