Intelligence-Led Literacy: Exploring Social and Environmental Determinants and Life Trajectories. A Conversation with Demetrius Paschel

In this episode of The Advocate Podcast, we explore why literacy is not just an education issue—it’s a justice issue. I sit down with an expert to discuss the social and environmental determinants that shape early childhood reading comprehension, and how struggles with literacy by third grade can lead to negative long-term outcomes, including dropout, suspension, and even justice system involvement.

We dig into the factors outside the classroom that impact reading, the ways academic frustration can be misinterpreted as behavioral issues, and what schools, families, and communities can do to intervene early. This conversation is essential for parents, educators, and policymakers who want to understand how equitable literacy opportunities can transform a child’s future.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome back to the Advocate Podcast, where we challenge the narratives around schools and give families, educators, and communities the tools to advocate effectively for children. I'm your host, Dr. Christy N. Love. And in recent episodes, we've discussed early literacy and why reading proficiency by third grade is such a critical milestone. Students who struggle to read by then often face greater challenges later. But literacy doesn't exist in a vacuum. A child's ability to read is shaped by social and environmental factors, access to resources, early experiences, community stability, and the systems surrounding them. Today we're going deeper. My guest is Demetrius Paschal, a strategist and researcher specializing in data analysis, risk assessment, and systems evaluation. He helps us uncover how early conditions influence long-term outcomes and how systems can either help or hinder a child's growth. In this conversation, we explore how social and environmental factors impact early reading and what communities can do to intervene early and change those trajectories. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

She specializes in culturally responsive teaching, restorative practices, and social emotional learning. Through the Advocate Podcast, she amplifies voices, challenges an equitable system, and keeps children at the center of every conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Hello, Demetrius. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I'm great. Good afternoon. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

I am well. I want to welcome you to the Advocate Podcast. So glad you could join us today.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yes, we have a very important conversation to have today. So for my listeners who may not be familiar with your work, can you briefly explain your background and how you became interested in analyzing at-risk environments and behavioral forecasting?

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Okay, sure. So uh I guess I would say that I've spent my life navigating, I would say, the gray space that's between like safety and uh system failure. And uh my background isn't just one thing, it's uh it's mostly multifaceted, it's a composite of being a father, a researcher at UAB, research fellow, uh, an educator, and a practitioner who has worked alongside the Secret Service, FBI, Bureau of Prisons, and other governmental agencies. And uh I founded um Deeds Corp, uh, which is my company, uh, because I saw a fatal flaw in how we handle risk. It's more reactive instead of being proactive. And uh uh essentially I developed the Pascal Theorem, which is a variable-based regression algorithm or SAS, if you will, to uh move from guessing to forecasting. So in this instance, in education, it was a variable-based regression algorithm that has the capacity to forecast the likelihood of, say, an at-risk student to engage in behaviors that may lead to a suspension and expulsion or an arrest. And so uh we look at um data not uh to label the child, but to uh but to humanize the statistics and intervene before a pre-redetermined outcome becomes a headline. So in this space, it's more prevention and behavior, where those two things, prevention, both prevention and behavior are key. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Indeed. I like that you have all these different perspectives and that they feed your work.

unknown 4:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Um and as I study your work, I see that you often talk about identifying and forecasting risk within systems. When we apply that lens to education, what are the earliest indicators that a child may be at risk academically or socially?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Okay, I would say in the RIBIS framework, which is what I do, and that's an acronym for your risk index and behavior intelligence score. That's your scoring system. In that framework, we look for, I would say, leakage or or you know, problems. I would say academically, it's not just a low test score because people, you know, students have a tendency to bump those up, but it's the avoidance of the task, you know, what's actually a part of that ecosystem. And socially, it's like um hyper-vigilance, a child who is scanning the room for threats instead of uh the page for the meaning. And so they're distractions, if you will. And if a child can't decode a sentence by let's say age seven, uh, they begin to decode the environment for survival, whether that's school, whether that's home, or wherever. So that shift from learning to read to reading to survive is like I would call it the loudest silent alarm that we have. And so I think that's a fundamental way of kind of explaining that.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Wow. Yeah. Very interesting. So when we say social and environmental determinants, what does that really mean in the context of early childhood literacy?

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Right. So I would say in my work, it means like the zip code mandate, if you will. Uh, in literacy, it's the the word gap, the reality that by age four, a child is in a who is uh uh in a high stress, low resource environment has heard uh they say 30 million fewer words than their peers. So it's the difference between a home where books are furniture and a home where survival is the only curriculum. So it's it's definitely those social determinants, those environmental determinants, what what children start to see and understand because they start to emulate what their experiences are.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yes, and then um my podcast last week, I just talked about experiences and just conversations that um parents have with their children. So with me, my son may hear vocabulary words that are much more complex than from um a parent who didn't graduate high school talking to their child, and how that can play a part, a big part in literacy for them. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Okay. So from a systems perspective, how much of third grade reading proficiency is truly about classroom instruction and how much is shaped by factors outside the school building?

SPEAKER_02 7:22

That's a very good question. Um I would say um uh the classroom is only about 20% of the equation. Uh uh, and that's my in my view. I'd say if a child arrives at school and let's let's say a cortisol fog, uh, because of let's say domestic uh volatility or housing instability, the best teacher uh in the world is fighting a losing battle against uh biology, if you will. So you can't teach phonics to a brain that is stuck in fight or flight mode. And a lot of times these kids come to school, they may come in and may have their head down. And uh two, uh I guess when you're looking at their initial impulses, you know, they're lazy or something, you know, or whatever, but you know, but what they don't realize is that child may have uh been up late due to um gunfire the previous night, you know, or uh it could be it could be a nutrition thing. Let's say, for instance, they they've been eating sugary cereal. A lot of these kids, you know, they're very codependent on eating at school, but sometimes when they get home, they may eat cereal or eat something that's not of a great nutritional value. And so essentially it has that type of impact on them, you know, it makes them sleepy or tired or or whatever that that might be. So we have to really consider those things. But I I I say uh the classroom is only 20%, maybe just a hair more of that equation. Um, and uh and it's it's a very serious issue that that we really need to take heed to.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Absolutely. Um, we I know I discuss brain research a lot and educational practitioners needing to understand child development, and then on top of that, how trauma impacts the brain and uh things like that. So, yes, what you're saying is so important for us to discuss and and unpack so that our children can get the best education possible so that we know how to serve them the best.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So, what environmental stressors most significantly impact a child's ability to develop reading comprehension skills?

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Um I would say predictability. I would say the greatest stressor is the lack of it. When a child doesn't know uh where they will sleep or if their power will be on or anything like that, their prefrontal cortex, uh the part of the brain, you know, needing uh needed for reading or comprehension, so on and so forth, it shuts down. So their attention span is on that as opposed to getting academic instruction. So we call these cognitive landmines. And so uh and so I think those are uh very significant uh environmental stressors.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yes, and I wonder how often adults think about how our own minds wonder when we have certain stressors we we haven't eaten or haven't had our coffee. You know, that's a big joke among among adults. Oh, I haven't had my coffee this morning, and we know how it impacts us, but do we allow that same grace and understanding towards kids who have what we may consider insignificant, or we even know it could be major things that are that's impacting their thinking in the school space?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Absolutely, yes. Okay, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah. So research shows that students who are not reading proficiently by third grade are more likely more likely to drop out of high school. Why is third grade such a critical turning point?

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Uh well, we call third grade uh the continental divide. So before then you are learning to read, and after that, you're reading to learn. So if you miss that jump or that transition, uh uh every other subject, whether it's math, science, history, or it could even be a favorite subject, becomes uh a foreign language, if you will. So you are effectively uh locked out of the economy of ideas, uh not having access to that because of that deficiency.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Third grade. Um I know that as a teacher who's been teaching 25 years or something like that. I remember during COVID and when we came back. I mean, our students who were in third grade during COVID, it has been such a struggle when we look at their lives, you know?

SPEAKER_02 12:11

Yes, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yes, and um, it's been an uphill battle trying to uh fight that loss, you know. Um yes, they're great, very important. So, from a forecasting standpoint, how does early reading failure correlate with later disciplinary issues, suspension, or even justice system involvement?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Uh, I would say uh, you know, the math is cold, you know, it really is frustration equals friction. So when a student can't keep up with the curriculum, they seek social currency elsewhere. So uh if I can't be the best reader, I'll be the best disruptor. We we used to call them back in the day class clowns. So uh, but essentially my theorem shows that early literacy failure is a primary variable in forecasting future uh uh contact with the system. So we do uh an assessment uh of a number of different things. It's more so individualized and holistic, and from that uh we derive a um uh a RIBA score, but also along with that we have coded interventions that meet kids where they are and take them where they need to go because every single child is is different. And so the cookie cutter approach, if you will, isn't going to be uh as effective as if you took that individual child and looked at their uh you know, the social determinants, environmental determinants, their internal makeup of that whole ecosystem of things and their experiences and make determinations based on that. So that gives them the best opportunity to pivot uh and win.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yes. So, you know, practically every child needs an IEP, right? This individual individualized education plan based on um their specific needs. So would you say it's fair to say that literacy is not just an academic issue, but a public safety and economic issue as well?

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Absolutely. Uh literacy is the uh I would say the ultimate body armor. So a literate population is less susceptible to the economics of the street. Um, if you can't read a job application, you're you'll eventually find a way to read a hustle. So we are either going to pay for literacy coaches now or prison guards later. That's the thing that that me and my team we talk about. And as you know, violence uh is a is a major public health problem uh by way of the CDC. So that's that's very important.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Well, you know, in many districts we see disproportionate discipline for subjective behaviors like defiance or disruptions, those behaviors defined by the teacher, which can be filled with biases, right? So, how might academic frustration, especially reading frustration, be misinterpreted as behavioral defiance?

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Well, I say in in this space, this is where like I would say my law enforcement background meets uh my pedagogy. So a kid acting out is often a kid masking their inability to read. Uh they would rather be called bad than stupid, or uh, or and we treat uh the defiance with suspensions or or even worse, in some cases, which just gives more time to you know for the kid to fall uh farther behind. So it's like a self-licking ice cream cone of failure. So, but having a better understanding of that individual student's uh by way of like let's say uh behavior assessment uh may better equip us with ways to be more proactive in this case instead of reactionary by the way that we really see and understand and provide prevention resources and interventions for that kid. So the more we know on the front end and the the uh we can understand those things, but more importantly, we can forecast those likelihoods of risk and also provide intervention before it actually occurs.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Man, what you're describing is very important work. I'm so proud of you and so glad that you're on my team. I am just so serious about this. Like, we gotta, yeah, this is essential work you're doing. I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yes, thank you.

unknown 16:45

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

So, based on your research, is the so-called school to prison pipeline more about individual behavior or about how systems respond to predictable stress points?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Hmm, good question. So uh school to prison pipeline, uh, I say I would say it's a design flaw that we could that we can improve. So the the pipeline isn't a fluke, it's a predictable output of a system that that I would say prioritizes compliance over comprehension. So when we respond to academic trauma with law enforcement style discipline, we aren't stopping a pipeline. We're actually just basically building the plumbing, if you will. And if we uh if uh I I just think uh we must ask ourselves if if we're really working to cure the root cause. And and uh if we look at it from this purview now, I don't think so. I think there's so much more that can be done to to uh to cure what what the issues are. Uh and we have a there's a canvas out there and we have a blank canvas, and I just truly feel that a whole lot more can be done uh collectively also, not pushing anyone out, but making it more of an intelligence-led way of of uh approaching it and uh and going from there.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Indeed, indeed. So if you were advising policymakers, what upstream interventions would you prioritize to prevent negative downstream outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Um I prioritize uh intelligence-led literacy. Uh uh, as I was kind of alluding to, we must uh we need to uh as I would say literary first responders, say if you know, not just coaches, uh, but trauma-informed specialists who really understand the neurobiology of poverty and and how education education is applicable to that. Um but uh and I would say that we need to fund say home library initiatives that that uh treat a lack of books like it's a lack of clean water. We could use an upgrade in our literacy ecosystem to indoctrinate our children early on. So really making it a priority early on. I can recall when I uh before I started kindergarten in in my house, my mom made sure that all of us could count to from one to a hundred. Uh we we knew how to write our name, we knew our addresses, uh just some number, some timetables that we but we often heard that. So these were our indoctrination protocols. So if you grew up in my mother's household, you were prepared, you know, you want she wanted you to have two pencils sharpened and everything. And so I just feel like that uh that type of pedagogy, that science, that uh that form of uh responsibility and indoctrination will will change things uh uh uh very significantly, uh I should say. Uh I wouldn't say what percentage, but I know they will definitely have a significant impact on the on the lives of children.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

I wonder if in universities that are preparing these literacy coaches or the programs that are preparing these literacy coaches, if they even um consider the trauma informed support that you're providing. I know that I was an interventionist at a school and I had to go through this training, and none of that was a part of it. It was all about decoding and repetition and you know the literacy terms, but not um the brain research behind it. And I wonder if there are programs that prepare educators to go into the work space knowing that, or if this is another place for you to get involved and um share your expert expertise to build these um spaces for these experts.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Well, I'd be delighted to yes, I think you're needed, sir.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Okay, so how should communities rethink literacy investment if we truly see it as prevention rather than remediation?

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Uh, I think we need to stop viewing it as uh like an education budget, you know, and start viewing it as like a systemic risk mitigation fund, you know. Uh investing in a first grade as a vocabulary is a capital expenditure uh that prevents uh liability 10 years down the road. So uh forward thinking, really taking it serious seriously. And uh I think that would be uh the first uh order, you know, uh the the first order of importance.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

And as you're saying, all this st amazing stuff, and I'm thinking about My work. I wonder how much of this is intentional towards certain populations, but we'll talk about that later. Okay, sure. Okay. So uh for parents listening right now, what is one concrete thing, one concrete thing, sorry, they can do before third grade to strengthen reading outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Okay, uh great question. I would say uh narrate your life. Uh uh even if uh you aren't a strong reader. Some parents aren't strong readers of obviously they can read, but not strong readers. If you're not a strong reader yourself, talk to your child, you know, uh talk to your child, make it uh I know uh it was important for me to have conversations with my child. We're gonna every day we're gonna at least spend 45 minutes of time talking, uh, whether that was at for dinner or just having that conversation. So you can describe the grocery store, the street signs, uh, the weather. Uh and you know, you're build building their uh like an oral vocabulary or something like that, uh so that when they finally see the word on the page, uh they have a mental hook, you know, to hang it on. So, and and you know, children they they do what they see. So, so read, let them see you reading, uh, encourage them to read, uh, and and and most importantly, uh then ask them to explain what they read. So that's where you get into that reading comprehension uh uh space because a lot of kids they can read the words, you know, but when you really process them, what is that passage or that paragraph or those sentences actually saying? What is it conveying? So I would, you know, encourage those for consideration, just my two cents.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Absolutely, and I know that with my sons very early, that their libraries were filled with things in which they were interested, right? Like they loved um superheroes, so you know, most of the books were about superheroes, right? Um but then you know, connecting that to real heroes, you know, how can we stretch this, you know, their their learning. But really early on, kids are interested in some amazing things. And if we fill their vocabulary uh their books with those things in which they're interested, it can only um entice them to read.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Right, absolutely. And I uh uh and I really like that uh your perspective. The uh the other thing that's culturally relevant pedagogy and information and like uh allowing children to read books that are relatable and identifiable, they're more prone to pick it up and read it again and really uh understand the dynamics and relate to it. So if they see characters that uh, you know, you know, you have you do have some inner city kids who love Harry Potter and all these others, you know, uh books like those, like those. But uh if a if a kid in the inner city is reading about uh kids who do things that they do, or they may have friends that they can identify with that do those things and talk about the things that actually happen in the inner cities, they're more prone to want to be more interested and pick that book up and continue to do that. So, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Yes, absolutely. So, for educators, how can we better recognize when behavior is actually a literacy struggle in disguise?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

I would say uh the bravado, I would say uh look for the mask. Uh when a student becomes like the class clown or the silent sleeper during reading time, don't reach uh for the referral slip just yet, you know. Uh reach for like a diagnostic tool. So ask yourself, is this a heart issue or a phonics issue? And usually it's the latter. So we really have to give you know kids the benefit of the doubt or create mechanisms or diagnostic tools that give us uh uh an ideation or an opportunity to really take and take into consideration those things and look a little bit you know further into the dynamics of that individual child.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yes, and it seems easy to me because you know I know the class clowns, right? It seems easy to me to be able to take the child to the side and we talk about some things and even do some reading diagnostic to um find out what the issue is. It seems so easy, but it appears so difficult in the system, you know.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

So if we changed how we approach early literacy over the next decade, oh wow, what you know, what what long-term societal shifts could we realistically see?

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I personally think that we would see a massive uh de-escalation in the justice system. I really do. Uh that's that's you know, literacy is it's a big deal. I I think we'd see a workforce that is adaptable adaptable rather than replaceable. Um, if we solve literacy, I say we solve 50% of our recidivism problems uh before they even start. And uh I I really and truly think that that's something that we should really consider uh shifting to those types of considerations because literacy is it's magic and uh it's definitely very serious.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yes. So what gives you hope in this space right now?

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Uh I have a lot of hope. Uh data, I would say because data is finally becoming human, you know, people are starting to listen to the the theorem or theories about this, and and that we can actually see these outcomes coming and change them. So the fact that we're even having this conversation through the lens of determinants, remember, social determinants, environmental term determinants, rather than bad kids, you know, that moniker gives me hope for sure, most certainly.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yes, yes. And, you know, as I talked about the intentionality about not fixing it within those schools that service traditionally marginalized students, right? I just think this that's the perfect space. That's where we need your work, that's where we need my heart, you know. And I'm very hopeful that through this conversation and the work that we're both doing, that those who need us most will receive this, you know.

unknown 29:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Um, so let's sum this up. Let's try to sum it up. I'm gonna give you this tough question. Okay, okay if you had to summarize this entire conversation in one sentence. Oh wow. What would you want possibly? I'll give you two sentences if you need it. Okay, so what would you want policymakers, educators, and parents to understand about third grade reading and life outcomes?

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Okay, so um why don't I do this? So I will I will do that in a couple of sentences, but there's a couple of perspectives that I want to share as well that I think are are very important. So to but to your point or your question, I would say parents, educators, practitioners, if we don't teach them to master the word by age nine, we are effectively drafting their indictment by age 19. So, and we must do this now because children are our present and our future. So we need to uh really get off our butts, be assertive, and and and and be practitioners of change. And so uh that's that's my I guess my my two sentences, uh, but my perspective, I have uh a few perspectives that I want to share. Uh, please do apply to and so so uh firstly, the intelligence-led shift, okay? So education must move away from, and this is just my two cents from standardized testing uh and toward predictive analytics, uh, treating a literacy gap with the same urgency as a national security breach because it it has a it has a very serious uh uh outcome, you know, uh the lack of literacy. And so uh next, I would say uh the cognitive cost of chaos. You know, children in uh I feel that children in high-risk environments aren't slow learners. I think they are high performance survivors, they're very bright and uh and whose brains are simply optimized for the wrong environment. But once you give these kids, once you level a playing field and give them what they need, uh I have absolutely no um uh no doubt that they that they can perform. Uh and it because you know the the environments are keen, you know, what they what they see and what they understand and their ability to learn and unlearn are are very important. Um thirdly, I would say the ROI of prevention and uh I would say from a business executive's view, uh the return on investment for let's say a $50,000 or $100,000 literacy program uh in first grade is exponentially higher than the $50,000 per cost of a prison cell in the 12th grade in Juvie or on the on the adult side. Okay, so we have to look at that. Let's say the let's call it the I don't know the 50-50 approach, okay? Um next is uh I would say alliance, you know, the seamless alliance, if you will. Uh just as I've worked with uh the Secret Service uh to protect VIPs, I've been a partner with them for a number of years. Uh schools must work with community alliances to protect the VIPs of our future. And those are our third grade readers. Uh definitely our third grade readers. They're so important, so so important. And not just being in third grade, but what happens prior to that, the K through three. So, and lastly, uh I would say, and I'm being a little biased here, the fatherhood variable. Okay. Uh, you know, uh a father's presence in the litter uh in the literacy journey isn't just about you know reading stories because uh, you know, uh I have read so many stories to my daughter, uh, it is unreal. Uh it's it's it's about providing the I would call it the capable guardian status that allows the child's brain to exit survival mode and enter into learning mode to where they don't have any worries or stressors. So this and this reminds me of like the routine activity theory. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's where uh crime occurs when three things are are are present and and they uh converge in space and time. That's a motivated offender, a suitable target, and the absence of a capable guardian. So that again is very important. That capable guardian can be a police officer. We most certainly need them. It could be a teacher, it could be a parent, it could be a nosy neighbor down the street, it could be a best friend, it could be anyone uh that that's available, you know, to redirect those types of recalcitrant behaviors, and uh, and I just truly feel that uh uh fathers are so important. So shout out to all the great dads out there. I'm rooting for you, you know, uh keep working at it. You may not get it right, but but keep working at it. And so uh as uh as I think I saw that on finding any mode, just keep swimming. Just keep swimming.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yes, uh, you know, I am a single parent and I have two boys, and I just remember thinking, like, you know, we wait until our children, we can't wait until they're teenagers before we can leave them alone and do, and I I was like, no, that's the time I don't need to leave them alone. I need to so when my son was in middle school and early high school, I was not leaving him alone. You're going to grand's house. Because you can get in much more trouble than if you were seven or eight years old, you know, that's what I'm just thinking in my head. But yes, that you know, having that uh support from my mom was very important, and we do need each other in this fight. We really do.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah, so it's definitely a partnership.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Okay, yes, definitely. Well, is there anything you want to share with us about future endeavors or what we should be expecting from Mr. Pascal anytime in the near future?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Uh I've I've got a I've got a few things brewing. Uh a couple of things I can kind of uh maybe paraphrase, can't speak too much about them, but I do I'm working on a uh ironic K through three documentary. I'm in the planning phase of that, so I'm excited about that. Really looking forward to working with the people and the uh and uh looking forward to working with you on that, you know, for for sure. I also have a novel I'm gonna be releasing this fall, uh entitled Offspring. It's a it's a hybrid novel and Paschal Theorem Pedagogy. So it basically uh it takes the Paschal Theorem, the whole analytics, and and basically transitions it into more of a story-driven type of approach with a central character uh and the different environment environmental and social uh uh determinants that impact his life when it comes to this is a young African African-American male, uh 14 years old, navigating uh through the you know, through the inner city without a father. He has a deceased father and uh has a uh a younger sister. So I'm using this platform to really uh talk about um social determinants, decision making, choosing friends, uh how to deal with you know violence, uh challenges, those types of things, the things that kids, you know, can really understand and and and that they really have to uh uh encounter. And these are real things. And so hopefully uh there's uh there's young men and women who can who will pick this book up and see something that's relative to them or relative to someone they know, and they can use it as a tool to to uh to do better, to be better, and maybe impact the lives of not just themselves or but for others, you know, and and just basically sharing that information.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yes, that sounds like a novel that needs to be in schools, like required reading for um a certain population of kids. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Yeah, that would be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Thank you. Well, sir, I know that you are traveling and you took the time out to have this interview with me. I really appreciate you and look forward to you coming back and whatever other things we have um that we can partner together.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

So I really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah, absolutely. And it's mutual. I really appreciate you, Dr. Love. Thanks for everything that you do, and thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to doing whatever I can to add value to what you guys are doing, or or anyone for that matter, anything uh to better the lives of these young people.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Ditto, ditto, my brother. Okay, well, you have safe travels, and I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Thank you. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Bye.

unknown 37:55

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

That was my conversation with Demetrius Pascal, and I hope it gave you as much to think about as it gave me. One of the biggest takeaways is that literacy isn't just an academic issue. It's deeply tied to environment, opportunity, and long-term outcomes. When we talk about reading proficiency by third grade, we're really talking about access, stability, and the systems that surround our children. As educators, parents, and community members, we all have a role to play. And when students struggle, academically or behaviorally, it's important to look beyond the surface and ask the deeper questions about what's really influencing their growth. If you found this conversation valuable, share this episode with a parent, educator, or anyone in our community who cares about the future of our children. Awareness is the first step toward meaningful change. Thank you for listening to the Advocate Podcast, and as always, keep asking the hard questions, advocate wisely, advocate boldly, advocate informed, because our children deserve adults who won't stop fighting for them. I'll see you next time.