Leadership & Solo Parenting in Tech with Karis Dorrigan

Navigating Career Growth, Leadership, and Work-Life Balance with Karis Dorrigan

In this episode, Karis Dorrigan shares her inspiring journey from early days in product management to leading innovations at Qantas and Freely. We explore themes of intentional career design, overcoming systemic workplace gaps for women and solo parents, and reimagining the future of work to foster greater inclusivity and wellbeing.

Karis is a Head of Product in InsurTech, Coach and Solo Parent.  Karis has led companies to their first million dollars of revenue and led product billion dollar enterprises, shifting  organisations to customer-first, product-led and outcome driven. She is a coach for mid career women in product and tech, looking to step into senior roles. Her mission is simple - to help more women get into leadership roles on their terms. Holding ambition and life together. When we have more women at the top, systems change, customers win, the economy grows

Key Topics:

• Karis’s background growing up as a solo parent and the systemic challenges women face in the workforce
• The importance of persistence and learning from failures in career growth
• How intentionality, networking, and self-promotion can accelerate your career
• Innovating in large enterprises through customer-led thinking and continuous improvement
• Lessons from launching digital initiatives at Qantas, including voice experiences and international check-ins
• Navigating public speaking nerves and practicing for impactful presentations
• The systemic gaps faced by solo parents in workplaces post-COVID and advocating for flexible, inclusive work roles
• Theory and practice of gratitude as a tool for mental wellbeing and maintaining ambition
• Practical ideas for rethinking workplace design: asynchronous work, core hours, four-day work weeks, and role flexibility
• Advice for young professionals: building networks, choosing impactful work, and focusing on outcomes rather than busy work
• Karis’s upcoming project helping product managers elevate into leadership roles

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction and Karis’s career overview

02:05 - Personal background and systemic challenges for women and solo parents

03:23 - How early career experiences shaped her approach to product management

05:07 - Advice for those uncertain about their career path

07:10 - Transition into travel at Qantas and key innovations

09:06 - The power of persistence and dealing with rejection

12:00 - Keys to career acceleration at Qantas

13:54 - Networking, visibility, and self-promotion strategies

16:04 - Overcoming public speaking nerves and practicing effectively

18:11 - Solo parenting challenges and systemic gaps in workplaces

20:07 - Post-COVID workplace redesign and flexibility solutions

22:37 - The importance of inclusive role design to retain women in tech

26:35 - Future of work: four-day workweek and impact-based pay models

28:38 - Practicing discomfort and testing innovative ideas in the workplace

29:57 - Cultivating gratitude and balancing ambition with mindfulness

35:07 - Advice to young people entering tech and the importance of relationship-building

36:01 - The value of focusing on impactful work over busywork

37:13 - Upcoming initiatives and how to connect with Karis

Resources & Links:

• Karis Dorrigan on LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/kdorrigan/

Connect with Karis:

• LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/kdorrigan/
• https://www.ambitionandlife.com/ 

Some people thrive in sales. Others in systems. Some build fast, others build deep. The difference isn't discipline. It's design. 

MoneyCareer.app uses your Chinese Ba Zi chart and Psychometric profile to show you the career and money path you were actually built for.

www.moneycareer.app

Are you in tech, get equity in your compensation and tired tax shocks?

Check out www.equitytax.ai 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Fiery Fans, the podcast for high-achieving women, rewriting the rules of work, wealth, and the next chapter. I'm Sheena and each episode gives you the strategies and mindset shifts to build a career and life aligned with freedom, not burnout. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Iris, thank you so much for being in the Fire Fams podcast. How is your week going?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

My week is going lovely, thank you. A bit of a challenging week last week. So excited to chat and excited for the week ahead.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

I know. Well, obviously, I've known you for um a while now since last year. Um, you're an amazing product queen, head of product at Freely. And uh you've worked with a number of tech companies beforehand as well. Why don't you introduce yourselves to the audience? What do you do? And um, I guess what's used in your wheelhouse?

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Sure. So I am currently head of product at Freely. Um I have been in product for, you know, way too long, um, since before I even really knew what product management was, and I was told I would be good at it. Um I have worked in large enterprise, um, in Qantas, we had a $3 billion portfolio really driving their agile and customer change, um, looking after innovation and mobile, um, which was a really exciting time where I got to really lead and scale teams rapidly. Um I've also then worked in scale-ups, and now I sit in corporate venturing, where I am the head of product at Freely, and we really look to shift the travel insurance business to get to provide much more value to customers beyond just the paper that we provide in terms of claims management. So, you know, how do we provide our customers with much more value for their, you know, for interacting with us?

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, absolutely. And before we dive in into like the more career side of things, what is something on your LinkedIn that, or what is something that's not on your LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_00 2:05

So I think not on my LinkedIn is really who I am as a person and my and my history. And I think that's really shaped who I am and what I want to achieve in this life and this world. Um, you know, growing up, you know, quite poor, getting handouts, and you know, being raised by a single mum of five kids, which I think is, you know, extraordinary. Um, and that's just really shaped who I am, you know, why I really care about changing the world for women. Um for making sure that women have a seat at the table in product and tech and that we're really creating workplaces that help women, parents, and I'm a solo parent, helping them thrive and be able to succeed in all asset aspects of life.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Yeah, absolutely. And um, that's such a powerful thing to be um a single mom raising five kids. Like that is a CV in itself.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah, yeah. In a very different time, right? So kudos to her.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Very different time. There's no Google Maps at the time, I think. There's no like Uber Eats delivery stuff to get the groceries delivered.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Like that is Yes, I haven't even thought about that. You were so right.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Maybe that's why you're a great product leader. Um, awesome, awesome. Well, um, so what has made you decide into moving into like product as um you know, I have to say, in my early days career, I wasn't really intentional about my career.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

You know, I remember pulling majors out of hats at university. I recall really early on in my career, I worked in digital and print marketing and I made this total stuff up in a guidebook I was putting to print. And at that moment, I was like, I can never do print. I need to be working in a um area where I can change anything at any time. And so that's when I really pivoted into digital. Um, and I've been there ever since. I think really, so I think early days it really wasn't that intentional. Um, and as I've kind of grown in my career and also in my life, you know, I place much more intention on how I manage my career and what's important in career and outside of career.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Right. So definitely you've felt the pain of physical products and it being so hard to change if you do need to. And you're like, I think digital is for me.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, I definitely felt that way. Had a um, it was like our wedding, and they had to, you know, like the welcom sign. And I um it got delivered weddings like in three days, and I'm just like, what am I what do I do? I'll just cover that misspelling with like a flower or something. But yeah, no, that's a that's a nightmare. But um, it seems like you've had such such an incredible career um for product starting from like that um mishap with a guidebook.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Mm-hmm. Crazy how one, you know, big failure in your career can really shift it for a lifetime.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, definitely. And because you mentioned that you weren't that intentional with with like choosing a career path, I guess the same as me, to be honest. What would you say to those people who are was probably listening to this and thinking, I actually still don't know what I want to do as well or my career. What would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Look, I think I think we're told to know our career path very early on, you know. And I think for many people for some people, they know what they want. And that, you know, it's been something in their mind for from day dot. But I think so many of us don't really know what they want. I mean, I'm still evolving and learning, you know, my purpose and what I want to bring to the world. So I would just um encourage them to try different things, to listen to what parts of what they're doing they really enjoy and what parts of what they're doing drain their energy or just is not giving them joy or satisfaction in life. And just nudge your way into a career or role that starts to give more, you know, that's more interesting, that lights you up, that you're doing more of what you like and start to really shape your career around those areas that lift you up and give you more joy. I think early on in my career, that was small things like moving from print to digital. Um, you know, working in travel, I love to travel. So I was like, well, I'm gonna get a product role in travel. Um, and so it was really around trying to figure out how product management could be shaped in other areas that I was really interested in. So, you know, if you don't have a clear passion, what other things that you can just find a little bit more satisfaction in your career or test and learn? And I think the other thing is just don't be scared of trying something new. You know, I think I have feared for a long time leaving the career that, you know, is I've invested a long time in. Um, but we live such long lives now. If you don't have a lot of um pressures around, particularly around finances or family in your earlier in your career, I think you have a lot more capacity to try new things and be bold in pivoting um to test and learn.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

I love it. So yeah, big advocate of testing, learning, and seeing which one you actually enjoy.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

And can you tell us more? I guess you already mentioned it a little bit about um you love travel. So you were quite, it sounds like you were quite intentional about choosing quantas as totally.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Dream job at the time. Um and yeah, I feel very blessed to have got that job. And I think at that time in my life, it was all around, well, I'm here to make people enjoy their lives more to experience travel. And that was what really lit me up. And the work, you know, we were doing great product, created new experiences across, you know, mobile app. And we launched the first voice experience when Amazon Alexa hit the market. So, really thinking about how do we help customers in their traveling journey. Um, and I think something in my career that's always stood true is bringing that customer-led thinking into businesses and organizations. And I think the second area is really well, how do we constantly improve? You know, what are the what, you know, we may be great, we may be the best team in Agile and Customer in this business, but what else can we do? So I think constantly having that view of let's improve, let's learn, let's grow as a team and individually.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

Yeah, beautiful. And how did you get into Qantas? Did you like cold apply or was it a referral?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yes, cult apply. I actually had applied for Qantas Loyalty many moons ago, and I got I was a second candidate and I didn't get that job, and I was so gutted. And then it might it was a there was a long time in between, and I saw this role. It was a product management role at the time, and yeah, it was a cold application, and I was lucky enough to land the role, but it was really tight as well. So by that time, I was number one, and you know, someone obviously in my position in quantas loyalty didn't get the get the job. But he actually got a job later on, so it's interesting that persistence and if you something you really want, it may not happen the first time, and don't let that, you know, slow you down or or stop you on your path to try and land something that you really love.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

That is such a beautiful message of sometimes you don't get it the first go, but you just have to persist and if it's something that you really love.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Totally. And I think, you know, especially in today's world, we think everyone has these really clear paths, and some people do have really clear paths, but I'd say they're probably the lucky ones. You know, behind any successful person is so many ups and downs and bumps and failures, right? So yeah, just it's it's about persistence in thinking about okay, well, I really want this. This is kind of my North Star and being comfortable with those ups and downs until you do find that right uh role for you.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Absolutely. I think it, yeah, a lot of people sometimes it's something that I also have to remember is um you only really see the success because it's what gets celebrated, but you don't see the 99 times that they actually tried and failed to get that one success. So persistent.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

Which product at Qantas would you say you're like the most proud of? I mean, if you can share.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

It's so hard to pick one, right? Probably, I don't know if this is that exciting, but certainly launching international check-in digitally for the first time in Australia was a really big milestone. But also getting to work with people like, you know, Amazon to build a f the first voice experience. Um, and my team got to go to um Cupertino to share our Apple Watch experience. So so many big innovation highlights and the opportunity to work for a major brand where these big tech companies are really interested in the experiences you're creating and wanting to help you create the best experiences in the market was definitely a really big highlight.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

It's amazing. So you're telling me that you're one of the people behind the experience of checking in internationally while I'm packing my bags a few days flying.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

It's hard to believe that you couldn't do that once upon a time.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Um literally, thank God for technology. It's crazy. What what did we even do before um the ability to check in um a few days before so seamlessly too?

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I'm sure we were very frustrated in very long lines.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah. Maybe we also had more patients, I feel at the time. We probably did have more patients. I completely agree. And from the outside, so how long were you um at Qantas for? I was there for five years.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

I and sorry, Hugo.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yeah, yeah, you go.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

You know, I think I had a lot of great opportunity. Uh my career really accelerated at Qantas. You know, I was giving new opportunity after new opportunity after new opportunity. And, you know, I came on as a product manager and leading, you know, one team and I left looking after mobile innovation um and managed a team of 70. So, you know, that was probably a real acceleration of my career and really helped me get to where I am now.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

That's a pretty that's a really good acceleration for five years as well. What would you say were vital to that success? What were you mindful of? And what would you say is in in hindsight you should have thought of?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, you know, I think being surrounded by great leaders at the time who really lifted me up and advocated for me was really important. I think a lot of it was luck. You know, I came on when mobile apps were not important or lower in importance in Qantas, and then, you know, mobile accelerated, and I had the skills to then take on more innovation. So a lot of it was around my team was a natural fit to take on work and just taking it on with gusto and you know, rolling with the ups and the downs. So I'd say, yeah, great leadership and right time, right place in in many cases. And, you know, of course I worked really hard and and I think I definitely brought my strengths around, you know, how do businesses think about customer centricity? How do we up deliver agile in large enterprises? And how can you really communicate and influence multiple different stakeholders and people within a business? I think the top three sort of strengths I brought to that role to help me succeed. And then in looking back around, well, what didn't I do? Well, I'm such a typical female, right? Work hard and expect to be recognized, take on more and expect that taking on more is going to give you that next role. And I think, I think I missed a lot of opportunities when the business was smaller and I could have so many corridor conversations with the very senior executives, and they were always saying hi, asking how my work was going. And I probably didn't lean into that in and really share what I was achieving. I would be very humble and change a subject or chat about, you know, some of the problems that I was having would actually, there were so many strengths. So, you know, I think certainly now in my career, I really realize the power of networks. And I probably found them icky back then. Like, I don't, I'm an introvert. I don't want to network. Like, I'd rather not be in that lift. And now I really realize how important having the people around you is, and that networking is about finding people that you've got shared alignment with and shared values. And when you find the alignment and the values, you can really take the ick factor out of it and go, okay, you know, we're building real relationships here, and I'm taking the right opportunities to build my credibility and my my personal brand within this business.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah, networking gets a bad rap, but I think people's perceptions are you go to an event and you collect as many cards and names and add them onto your LinkedIn. Whereas like it's the exact opposite, you can just find one or two really valuable people that you actually connect with the most and you go from there.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Yeah. And that you're so right. You know, I'm that traditional go into a cold room and meet people where it really doesn't have to be like that. And I think to your point, you only need one or two people who really believe in you that, you know, have that seat at the table, a couple of ranks above you that can really change the tr your trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

And um, it's good to hear as well that while, you know, it's something that I have also done before that if I just like hit my metrics, it speaks for itself. And looking back, it's you know, I should have promoted myself more, marketed myself more. And I guess like that's something that we can share to to a wider audience.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah, totally. And at Contrast, I was really good at that. Not necessarily because I wanted to, but because they had a big culture of showcases. And so um, I would have to share our work in very large auditoriums. So whilst I wasn't naturally necessarily leaning into that, and I think I could have unlocked a lot more career potential by building those relationships early, I was pushed into the position where I had to constantly share our great work to very large audiences at all levels. So I was naturally through the culture, you know, building that credibility, building the the success of the outcomes our team were achieving through those forums, which are really part of Quantas' culture at the time.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Now, you mentioned earlier that you're a natural introvert and speaking in big crowds, big auditoriums where like all eyes are on you. That must have been nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

It was horrendous. I remember when I first started and a product manager was presenting in this huge auditorium, and I was like, there's no way I can do that. Like, oh my God. But then by the end, it just becomes so natural because you're building your reps, you're practicing, you're putting yourself out of your comfort zone, and it just becomes so normalized. I also used tools and techniques to have to not present as much, like an awesome video, or you know, showcasing the amazing talents of my team because I was a less natural position for me to be in. But I do believe, you know, I remember when I was really early in my career at Fairfax, we did this public speaking course, and I almost I couldn't even think, right? I was like so far out of my flywheel. And now I still get the ner nerves and jitters, and I still, you know, get that level of anxiety for really important meetings. But just from practice, from repetition, from being put challenging yourself to be in positions that you are not naturally comfortable in, um, it definitely helps you, you know, find a space where you're comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Absolutely. And would you say that how many times would you practice before, like, let's say, like a big product launch and you're gonna be in in the stage, all eyes on you. Do you have a specific number of like times that you're gonna practice by yourself in your lounge?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah. I mean, I think it took me a long time to learn that people practice. I thought, oh, everyone just gets up there and they do really well. I would practice three times. Like I think by the time you do three, well, for me, one I'm fumbling, I'm like, I kind of read my notes. The second one, it's you know, pretty good. And the third one, I know my message. So three tends to work for me.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah, amazing. So there you go. We have a we both have our magic number. Yeah, what's your magic number? Three is also like my number of awesome. Must be something in it. Yeah, definitely the rule of three, right? But yeah, if I can do it three times without notes, great. Yeah. That's so good. Well, um, a bit of a change in your journey in like the solo parenting and how you've seen the systemic gaps in women. Um but can you tell us more about your experience in um, I guess like the solo parenting and the systemic gaps for women?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah, sure. So I've always been a really big advocate for women and you know, helping to change that and bring equity into the workforce. Um, but becoming a solo parent and I'm an only parent, you know, it's just my mind is blown daily on how much this world is not made for solo parents and how much there's assumptions that solo parents have a backup parent that can help them. So, you know, little examples like at work, I have asked for meetings to be in working hours, training meetings, and been told to, you know, organize that with your partner, who obviously I don't have a partner. You know, I've if I'm commuting into the office, my commute to work is two hours, and I physically could not be in an office from nine to five with childcare and school after before school, after school care hours. You know, it's just actually impossible. The maths don't add up, right? Yeah. And so, you know, I've I think I've just, it's just there's so much that just does not work for parents, but specifically for solo parents. And, you know, honestly, we have come so far in customer experiences, in how technology has advanced, in that, you know, AI is here. You know, in my career, the iPhone dropped, you know. We have evolved so much in our lifetimes and we have embraced cultural change, technology change, you know, how we work. But for some reason, we still sit in this workplace design and that just has not really fundamentally shifted. Um, and obviously COVID was a really big disruption moment. But I've certainly found now, a few years out of COVID, that a lot of those changes that would have would have that helped parents and solo parents are being rolled back, or it's really a lot harder to find them, you know, the part-time roles, the really flexible workplaces, organizations that don't have return to office mandates. And so, you know, in so many instances, the working world is setting women and solo parents up to fail. And we have everything in our toolkits that mean we don't have to be excluding solo parents from the workforce. You know, we can make it a place that parents and solo parents can thrive. We have everything that we need, yet businesses are not innovating or disrupting, disrupting as fast as they can and should be, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah, that's that's such an interesting angle as well, because you're right, like with all the it started with uh going back to the office once a day, twice, I mean, once a week, twice a week. Now it's at least three days. I know that they're on-site only um workplaces as well. So yeah, we're we're definitely just going back to how it was.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

100% we are. You know, even things like um before post-COVID, finding a company that would agree to a four-day working week was quite easy. I would say 90% of organizations would say, of course. Now I'm finding that's more like 10%. And that's my anecdotal experience from people out uh reaching out to me around roles, this real inflexibility to um cater for different working rhythms to support different types of people being in different roles, um, which I think is really disappointing. And ultimately, most women will get these um adjustments if they've been in the organization for a while and they've earned that um right, for want of a better word. But I think there's this real opportunity to think about well, if we're going to give it to someone who's been in the business for five years and has been achieving these outcomes, why aren't we giving it to people? People who. Now, why aren't we designing that into the role from the start so that we attract a bigger pool of talent, particularly in tech? We know women over 40 are leaving. You know, we know that it's there's some work to do around equity and getting more females into this particular field. If all businesses were designing roles at the start to allow for inclusivity and role design that suits different people at different stages of life, I think we would just have such a better opportunity to attract new talent into technology.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah, and that's such an interesting insight that more women over 40 are leaving the tech industry. Is I I think I saw that on your post um earlier.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Is that like a new um Yeah, that I can't remember exactly when it was launched, but the tech council of Australia did some research into this. So it's relatively recent um around, you know, what is happening? Why are women exiting the workforce within the tech sector and particularly ones with technical skills at a faster rate than men? And there's a lot of reasons, but certainly a big one that we we can point to is caring responsibilities. And then if I add my sit solo parent lens on, everything is getting 10 times harder. Um, particularly if you don't have a co-parent. Um, but even if you do have a co-parent, you know, you're still with them, whatever, whatever the shared care arrangement is, you still have to manage that on your own with limited support.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I can imagine as well paid care, if you're gonna hire like a a sitter, anything like that, they're pretty expensive. I I find in um in Australia and in Sydney in general.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, it's not, you know, it's impossible unless you're in a very good financial position, like extraordinary financial position, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah. I also find that how I'm like thinking, oh my god, like the ability to trust someone as well, if it's not family, the ability to trust someone, like for your kids is is pretty hard. So it's like putting parents in that position of when you have to pay money to someone so that you can work these hours, but also like somehow you have to give them this trust that your kids are gonna be okay. So yeah, it definitely puts solo parents in such a difficult position. Yeah, definitely. And for you, in an ideal world, how would you design like the the new workplace?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I mean, big question. And obviously, I don't have all the answers. I think, you know, innovation create, we need different minds coming together to really think about what could this look like and what is our North Star. But I think it's interesting, right? Because I actually think there are a lot of things that we can do today that are not, you know, they're not groundbreaking. They're super simple. You know, can we think about um I've got a a really amazing thought leader, Dr. Um Ford, has a movement called hashtag work school hours. Um, and she's advocating for things like let's just adjust meetings. So meetings start at 9:30, not nine, you know. Um let's have core hours. We we're you we're living in a time where we can do a lot of asynchronous work. So maybe businesses adopt core hours from 10 to 2, and then we do async outside of that. You know, what I mentioned earlier, let's design roles. If we're gonna give someone a adjustment to a role, like part-time, flexible job share, you know, different hours hours, let's give the let's put that in the role from the start. Like let's let every role um start from the lens of inclusivity. And so you don't have to earn this right to get special treatment. Because it's not special treatment, you know, we're still expecting the same outcomes, we're still expecting, you know, the same impact to the business. But let's like open doors through job applications. And I really think that will help women move into senior roles too. And in because if we think about the C-suite, a lot of people are like, well, I want to get there. I have the ambition to move up, to have a seat at the table, but I am not willing to never be able to do see my kids after school to, you know, have to work 80-hour weeks. You know, there's this real perception of what that looks like. And I think if we can really think about what great looks like for parents, solo parents, and honestly, I'm sure the younger generation who want a different working world, then I think we can increase well-being, increase your attention, attract amazing talent. You know, we have a talent shortage in Australia, particularly moving with the AI generation, how are we going to get all these people into tech? Something needs to shift. And I yeah, I think I think there's some ideas, but I'm sure there are brighter brains in this world that can come together and really rethink the workplace. There's great research as well around the four-day work week, right? That we're getting the same outcomes with a four-day rhythm, higher well-being, higher retention, you know, better connection to family, be that doesn't have to be kids, you know, your broader family and community. And so it's time to take some of these things seriously and really go all in as a society, in my humble opinion.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Well, if you think about it right, apparently back in the days, we used to all work seven days a week, which I'm like, I cannot comprehend. But, you know, maybe we're just a few decades away from the hopefully not a full-on decade, but I can certainly see that more and more companies are seeing, you know what, if we can just like focus, concentrate, and have all of our work done in four days, why not?

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah, 100%. And, you know, I remember when I was at Quantas, actually, I hired this amazing um product manager. And at the time she negotiated for a four-day work week and one day working at home. So she was three days in the office, one day at home and one day off. And so, you know, paid an 80% um pro rider salary, right? But she was my highest performer. In her four days, delivered the best outcomes, you know, delivered over and above, was my, you know, second in command, um, for want of a better term. And yet she was given an 80% salary, 80% bonus. And though, so on paper, oh, if we're compensating by hours, she was paid the least. If we had, if we were compensating on outcomes, she would have should have been the highest paid person in the room. So I think this, this, the paying by hours is hopefully will change in the future, but it certainly doesn't, it certainly doesn't equate to impact or the outcomes that people are contributing to businesses.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Absolutely. I think uh the I'm a big fan of performance metrics anyway. I've never really been paid per hour. I've seen the light when it comes to like like performance-based payments, but it's it's if if you're in touch, she's probably still killing it. And uh she is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for someone to actually negotiate at the time to negotiate the way that she negotiated, I think.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

And I felt so uncomfortable. This is pre-COVID, right? And pre-me being a parent. I was like, what? She wants that? But I was like, okay, let's trial it. So we're always gonna feel discomfort when we do new things. Even I feel discomfort as this big advocate for changing the working world. But just sit with that discomfort and give it a crack. Trial, experiment, test, you know, and see what the outcomes, see what outcomes your business delivers because of it. Um, but it will feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

There you go. It is very it is very uncomfortable to like ask for something, but she got it in the end. You were uncomfortable, she was probably uncomfortable. And I think when you're negotiating at a new role, at a potentially new role as well, it's like, what if they take the offer back?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah. But if you're if you're the person, you're the person.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Um go for it. No, that's it. And speaking of discomfort, um, I know that we talked earlier a little bit about like social media, about showing up on LinkedIn, on social media. And when every time that we do it, there is something that shows up, like an opportunity presents itself. I'd love to talk a little bit on the comparison in the social media age, but also how we foster gratitude to kind of like combat that. How do you cultivate gratitude while still allowing yourself to like dream big and I guess like have this ambition set for yourself?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

I think it's really hard, right? Uh, you know, what are we striving for and what is our North Star? But how are we comfortable in the now? And it can be really contrasting. And I'm certainly someone who's always thinking, what next, what next, what next. And I've had to really learn to be content with where I am now. And, you know, for me, the gratitude practice, which is very evidence-based, you know, it's not, you know, I think we probably still think it's very woo-woo and it doesn't actually have any scientific benefit to it, but actually there's a lot of evidence that says that gratitude practice can be really supportive of your well-being. Um, and so I do gratitude in many ways. You know, I've had a gratitude journal in the past. Um, I don't use one now, but what I found through that experience was that it shows themes that really bring um more happiness into your life. So, and they're usually quite small, you know. For me, it's getting to the beach, having a coffee in the in the morning, you know, spending time with my family. And so, you know, we might have these big dreams for a bigger, bigger house, a pool, whatever it is. But actually, the things that bring us contentment, contentment will show up in our gratitude journal, and that and we can do, we can do things that are really achievable now. But now I use gratitude more in just reminding myself of what I have. You know, I have two amazing children. We have a home, we live by the beach, and just, you know, in the age of social media, in the age of all of these things that we think we can have, I think it's really important to recognize what we have now and remind ourselves that, you know, we are lucky. Yes, you know, my family's gone through a lot of grief, but we, you know, a lot of people don't have kids and they want kids, and I have my children. And so really being grateful for those things that we do have in life, I think is really important. And always I also try to cultivate in my daughter. And I just ask her every night, you know, what are you grateful for today? Or what put a smile on your face today? And she'll often be like, Mom, like, I don't know. Um, but I'll still do it because event, you know, it'll just help to bring that appreciation to into a little ritual in our family.

SPEAKER_02 32:05

I think definitely gratitude is so big. Um it's yes, it's woo-woo, but to your point, it's there's like some studies in it. The more that you're thankful about things, the more you actually see the good things in your life as well. And for people who are religious, what I've noticed is typically they're more one, they're happier, which is a win-win, but they ha always have more to give. They know that there's more to come. Um it's because they um, I mean, their gratitude is um praying. So I come from my parents are quite religious and they pray like for meals. I guess like what they do as well when they wake wake up and then before go going to sleep. And that's usually the format of a prayer is like being thankful, acknowledging what we currently have, like for food. And then I guess like asking for what's next. So I love that. That gratitude ingrained almost in their lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Yeah. And it's a ritual for, you know, there's a ritual that may work for religious people around prayer, which is amazing. And then it's well, what works in your life. You know, if you're religious, amazing. Maybe having a more format to that how you pray. And if you're a non-religious, it's like, well, a journal, a little ritual in your family, just something that you think about, you know, every morning, building those habits around making sure you're recognizing what you do have of and the abundance in your life, even if it, you know, and you know, we don't all have great lives, but there's always some, there's always a nugget in there instead of focusing on what we don't have. And I think in the area of social media, it's so easy to be focused on what we don't have.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Yeah. And I always tell myself as well, it's like maybe that person doesn't actually even own that house or own that Lambo.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Uh it's pretty good. My financial planner often tells me that, right? Like a lot of people who look really wealthy on paper, it's debt, you know, it's the loan for the amazing car or the huge mortgage. And so you don't ever know what's going on under the surface. You know, as as we said earlier, there's the glossy version. You don't know, you know, how people got there. So run your own race if you can.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

What a beautiful message. Thank you for that. I think again, like that just resonates to a lot of people, what you see on social media, but also what do you actually have that you should pay attention to and be grateful for?

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah, and what's important to you, right? Like how are you designing a life around what you want? Um, it's so easy to have social compared comparison, but we we're gonna strive for things that maybe are not even important to us. And so I think that's really an individual around finding what really gives us joy and purpose in life.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Absolutely. And um, as we, I guess, like getting close to um wrapping things up, I would love to hear about, I guess, you know, you've been in tech for a while now and you've seen all the changes. It was super luck to see a lot of things like the iPhone, the iPhone launch, COVID, the changes in mobile and innovation, and now AI. What advice would you give to 20-year-olds today?

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah, you know, I think for me, I would spend time curating my network and building relationships with people. I think, I think is part one. You know, I think network, especially in in today's world, is often as important as, you know, doing all the work. I think for particularly for women, one thing I did earlier in my career is do all the work, work really hard, you know, take on extra work and grow your scope. And I think that can be great, but that doesn't always lead to the right outcome for you. Because if the work you're taking on is not promotable or it's not seen as a valuable, um, it's like the busy work, not the important work, well, you're still not going to be recognized and maybe move up in your career like you'd like to. So I'd be mindful of the type of work I take on, you know, thinking about if I want if I've got capacity to do more, make that work impactful for you and for your personal goals in career and life.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

I would love to double down on this for um our women listeners. One of I would say the mistakes that I did, and I I loved it at the time, but looking back, do I need to be in the party planning committee at LinkedIn?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

No.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Exactly. Exactly. Was it a promotable thing? Was that a credit thing? No. But you see it all the time. Almost all the time, the party planning committee of whatever companies, of whatever like organization of the business that doesn't actually move the mid the needle for the business is almost usually women.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

So you can't do that. My biggest, one of my biggest bugbears. Exactly. And if you love it, fine. But if you were thinking about how you contribute, you know, risk value your time and invest it in the areas that get you where you need to get to. And that might be in career. It actually might just be that you have another half hour to go to the gym. Um, you know, so value your time and spend it in areas that will get to your end goal.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

I love it. Um, great advice, great advice. And I know that you are building a wait list. Tell us what you're gonna be up to in the next few weeks or in the next few months.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah, sure. So I will continue on my corporate career as head of Project Freely. I'm loving what I'm doing at the moment. Um, but I'm also really keen to spend more time doing what I really love and again leading to my purpose. So I will be opening a wait list shortly, really helping um product managers, product designers, and tech, you know, mid to senior in their career to really elevate into leadership roles through coaching, uh, through building capabilities, and some other exciting things coming soon. So yeah, if you want to know more, jump on and find me on LinkedIn and the wait list will be ready very soon. I'm very excited. Awesome. So excited. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

I'm so excited. Thank you so much, Caris, for joining us. And we will see you shortly.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Beautiful, so much fun. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Bye.