Why Many Women Wait to Invest And How to Break the Paralysis

Navigating Investment, Creativity, and Career Transitions with Chenelle

In this episode, Chenelle shares her unique blend of investment expertise, creative pursuits, and international experiences. We explore topics like gender equity in venture capital, the power of building relationships, and the importance of creative curiosity in professional growth.Key Topics:

• Chenelle’s role as Investment Director at Female Led Ventures and her focus on investing in female founders and capital allocators
• The impact of diversity in investment decision-making and expanding funding to women-led ventures
• The concept of syndicates in angel investing: what they are and how they democratize early-stage funding 
• The importance of thinking long-term in venture investing and understanding risk management frameworks
• Balancing creativity and analytical skills, including personal projects like food newsletters and art explorations
• Career flexibility, transitions, and the value of persistence and relationship-building
• The shifting landscape of education, the value of university experiences, and advice on scholarships and self-directed learning
• Entrepreneurial resilience: handling rejection, follow-up strategies, and embracing the non-linear career journey
• Encouragement for young women in tech and the need to shed perfectionism and societal expectations around standard success metrics

Timestamps:00:00 - Intro and technical issues with recording setup
 02:19 - Sheena's health update and personal news
 03:24 - Exploring recent changes in Australian investments and startup community insights
 05:36 - Chenelle’s role at Trawalla Group and her focus on gender lens investing
 08:19 - Celebrating recent female-led startup successes like Phia
 10:00 - The importance of diverse investment decision-makers and leveraging LPs in venture funds
 12:09 - Chenelle’s creative side: art, food blogs, and merging creativity with finance
 15:16 - Her journey from Manila to the US and Australia, and embracing a citizen-of-the-world identity
 18:03 - Starting a syndicate: what it is, benefits, and how to get involved
 20:53 - Long-term thinking in angel investing and the value of exposure to different industries
 22:39 - Risk management in venture investing and the importance of portfolio diversification
 25:00 - The influence of age and life stage on investment strategies
 27:18 - The importance of starting early and building a long-term investment mindset
 28:33 - Women's research habits versus their investment behaviors
 30:05 - Decision-making frameworks and Annie Duke’s Thinking in Bets as recommended reading
32:30 - Using poker as an analogy for investment decision-making
36:52 - The value and changing perceptions of formal education and advanced degrees
39:17 - The cost-benefit analysis of MBAs, scholarships, and self-education
42:30 - Applying for scholarships and the power of persistence
44:22 - Celebrating persistence with real-life stories of success through follow-up
45:29 - Advice for young people: embracing risk, building relationships, and saying yes to opportunities
48:25 - Challenging societal narratives around passion, money, and societal pressure
49:34 - The importance of financial literacy and strategic planning for women in tech and entrepreneurship
50:28 - Closing thoughts and gratitude for the inspiring conversationResources & Links:

• Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke

• Aussie Angels Platform

• Female Led Ventures at Trawalla Group

• Phia Startup

• Startmates First Believers Program

Connect with Chenelle:

• LinkedIn

• Twitter

This episode offers valuable insights for aspiring investors, creative entrepreneurs, and women navigating their careers across industries and borders. Embrace the long view, invest in relationships, and keep curiosity alive in your professional journey.

Join Invest Like a Women Workshop for August

https://events.humanitix.com/august-workshop-or-invest-like-a-woman

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Welcome to Fiery Fems, the podcast where high-achieving women build wealth, redesign their careers, and create lives with real freedom. I'm Sheena, an accredited investor, former tech sales professional, and the founder of Fiery Femes. After a decade across global SaaS, startups, and my own reinventions, I realized the most powerful thing a woman can have is optionality. So in every episode, we explore the future of work, the psychology of wealth, and the practical strategies that help women build careers and lives that evolve as fast as they do. Chanel, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so excited to begin. Likewise, yeah, excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Um thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah, definitely. I think your career is so incredible. Definitely, I think you've pioneered the portfolio career and career transitions. So super excited to dig into that. And you have a really cool uh role. And I'd love to know how how how do you define it and what's your what's your title right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:30

My title right now. So I currently work as the investment director for female adventures at Truala Group. So it's a family office, but I am in a very lucky position to run a specific gender lens portfolio venture portfolio within that family office. And so I work for a woman called Carol Schwartz. And the long of the short of it is really that gender equity is such an important advocacy for that family office. And, you know, there's a real belief that one, and I'm sure I don't have to repeat these stats to anyone. I'm sure you've discussed this on this podcast, but the percentage of capital that goes to female founders in general, right? It's it always feels a little abysmal. And so as a society, it really does like a touch. It's it's a little small. Just a touch, you know. And so, you know, I think we really feel um like it's very important to where we can move the needle and where we can sort of move it towards a direction that we want it to go, meaning more equitable share of capital, then that's what we'd like to do. So sorry, that's a long-winded way of saying. So I run female adventures, and so what we do is invest in female founders. But actually, more recently, we've had a huge focus on investing in female capital allocators. So, what that means is we take LP positions into venture funds that have been founded or are led by women. And the thinking really here is, you know, we we want to get more female founders funded, but that's going to be really hard to do if all the investors investing are largely not women. So we need more women at the table making these investment decisions, deciding where capital goes in order to make that more equitable. Look, it's one answer of many, but we think it's a really important lever to let to to have and to do. And so that's what I do on a day-to-day basis. I we make investments in funds and we make investments in female founders.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

That is so beautiful and so timely as well, because today uh FIA announced that they had a 35 million seed round. Yes, I saw that. Yep. And most of their most of their investors are women. That's right. So we love it.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

We love it. Um, you know, it's it's really I love fashion. I think Via is a fantastic startup. I think I'm I'm excited to see what you know, Phoebe and what's her name? I think it's Sophia.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Sophia.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Right? Well, I'm impressed that I could command that information. But um, you know, the female economy is large and it's growing, right? If we think about the general population, it's 50% women. And so we love to see women building in the space to cater for women and their needs. Yeah. I don't know. Just very exciting and really exciting to see a lot of capital flow through startups like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

I agree. And on top of that as well, women typically are the buyers in households anyway. Yes. So it's great to see that, like one, we actually have more intel into that decision-making process, the thought process, the the user experience and the buying journey. So uh this is a great time.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Absolutely. No, uh excited to hear it. We need more of it. We need more women building in this space. We need more investors. I think, you know, in their cap table, I think the article or the headline I saw earlier today has a lot of celebrity names. A lot of women, right? Um, but I think that's really exciting as more women get the confidence to invest. I I think it's it's really important to sort of see that trend continue. Huge.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

It's also amazing because they focused on who can get the most eyeballs. So that brand awareness piece, and then people will be thinking, oh, how can I invest in seed rounds? And uh it's it's all gonna be happening um from that side. One thing that I want to ask before we dive a little bit deeper, what is not listed on your LinkedIn profile, Chanel?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, you know, I had to think about this question. Uh what is not listed on my LinkedIn profile? You know, I think I like to consider myself like a really frustrated creative, right? So you look at my LinkedIn profile and it's a lot of roles around data, analytics. I'm an investment today, venture. And, you know, in my in my in another life, you know, I would love to, I I love art, fashion. Like there are sort of this spectrum of things that I really interested in and spend a lot of time surrounding myself with. And that's a long-winded way of saying, I think one, I love that stuff. I have a secret food cooking newsletter, which I will not disclose today, but you know, that's not on my LinkedIn profile. But I think there's really something to creativity. I love creative people. I think investing requires a level of creativity. I come from a liberal arts background. I went to a liberal arts college. I studied economics, but I also studied French. And so having that breadth of exposure and experience to not just, you know, one area, whether that's like math, like, you know, math, quantitative stuff, you know, I think we grow up often being told you're either left-brained or right-brained, you're good at math or you're good at art. And I think we shouldn't have to choose. And so even if I think at first glance, my LinkedIn profile probably looks very like like she's a serious finance data investor person. I don't know if that's the only dimension I would define myself with. I hope that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so interesting because you're the second person on the pod who's creative, analytical as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

But love the creative, like just the flow. Sure. Yeah. And, you know, I would I would probably argue I'm not the second person. I I I would argue to everyone has like that creative side and that analytical side, right? It's just like, you know, allowing it to flourish, which to be honest, I'd say I'm on a journey figuring out what to do. Talk to me in 10 years and see. Maybe have changed careers again.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Well, how does the creativity manifest for you? I think what what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 8:15

That's really interesting. Like personally or professionally or both? Personally. Great. Uh, how do I how does that manifest? Look, I think you know, spending time surrounding I think I think being creative means being very curious. And so personally, right? It means really exposing myself to things outside my day-to-day, whether that's art and like going to a museum or like having a hand at like painting, I suck, but you know, like let's let's call it that. And then professionally, I think I think that curiosity really lends itself well from an investment standpoint, right? Because then you're thinking about the businesses that you're seeing with a different lens. Like it's not a pure, what do the numbers look like? And that's that. Like you look at different angles, you look at things like branding and positioning. Like you look at, you know, how it's i there's a people element to it. And I think that requires a level of creativity and and curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Got it, got it. I love that you said like you're a uh frustrated creative, and uh and you also have a food up.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Personally, it yeah, it's very much in hiatus, but you know, I I I I do it with a friend and we just like to write about what we eat and what we're making, and you know, it's a fun time.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. That's um that's actually my creativity as well. Like I love cooking. Yeah, great. I personally love the process of chopping, of obviously like peeling. I actually like that creating.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

I just like the mixing. I mean, I'll do it because it's part of it, but uh yeah. I should really learn knife skills. I mine are terrible, but you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, definitely. I think if my theory or my thesis is if you have a dull knife and if you don't know your knife skills, you tend to hate cooking. But if you like get to master them, you're usually fine. And if you have a sharp knife, yeah, you will love it. Yeah, no, I I agree.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Um yeah, I'm not quite maybe I'll get there, but I still love it.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely and awesome. So I love that. Like you're frustrated, creative, you you have you love food. And I also know that you're Filipino and you moved to the US and to Australia. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Which did you go to college in Philippines? Yeah, no, I didn't. So I grew up in the Philippines, born and raised. I'm from Manila. I know you're Filipino too. Come on, born and raised in Manila, but I moved to go to uni in the States when I was 19. Um, I was really lucky. I got a scholarship to a full ride to go to a liberal arts college in the Northeast, which, you know, really was a completely different experience. Again, I majored in econ, but I also did French. And so I think, you know, I just like found myself in a completely different world at a very young age. Um, and then I I moved to New York for work. I spent eight years there. And then I got sent to Australia for work again to set up our offices here for the data analytics company that I that I used to work at. Um and the rest is history. I'm still here, you know. Where will I be in you know a couple of years? Who knows? But yeah, I'm Filipino born and raised, but sort of a citizen of everywhere, if you will. Citizen of the world.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah. I I think I think it's definitely uh very common. I see it with my friends and myself all the time. Yeah. And I'm I'm excited to have you here because I think there's that funny in-between of, you know, when people like ask you, oh, where are you from? Well, why do you have that accent? Like, yeah. So it's a very unplaceable of us.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

It's an unplaceable accent. There's a lot of us, you know, and I'm sure you know this, right? Filipino as Filipinos are one of the largest diasporas the world over, right? We're everywhere. And I think, you know, there's a certain profile that's well known about what that looks like, but I think there's a real diversity across that diaspora in general, right? People doing lots of different things, not just the ones that we're well known to be, which is amazing and it's great. But I think the Philippine, like it's it's it's a really interesting uh beast, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah. Uh actually I'm getting to meet a lot more um Filipino women in tech. Yeah. And I got like especially here in Australia, and she was like, hey, we should set up like a dinner. Like, do you know if there's any like certain community? And I'm like, actually, no, we don't, but we should, we should have it. Yeah, who are these people? Who else? Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

I'll I'll gather around.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

I'll gather around. Beautiful. Well, one thing that I wanted to talk about is um, you know, starting a syndicate and um the thesis of the family office where where you're at. So you talked a little bit about it, but I know that you've had the experience of starting a syndicate a few years ago. Would love for you to share what a syndicate is to the wider audience and what made you start that syndicate. How did you find the experience?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Yeah. So I started a syndicate with a couple of friends of mine. I want to say it was about two or three years ago. It was coming off the back of a program that I think you had also participated in called Start Mates First Believers Program. And the objective of that program is really to create and continue to create a critical mass of angel investors within the Australian startup ecosystem, right? Because we really want more people to be involved to invest. I think angels are sort of like the quiet engine that really power the ecosystem here in abroad, really. But, you know, we had come off the back of that program and we were really keen to sort of like get going, right? It's, you know, if if if there's anything I'll say about investing, it's fun to talk about it, but there's doing it is a completely, completely different experience. And so getting those runs on the board, making those investments, you know, we really wanted to be able to do. So I think long-winded way of saying formed a syndicate, and what that is, is really like a collection or a group of people that come together to make investments together. Now, you know, the level of involvement across each person in that group can differ from syndicate to syndicate. Some syndicates have a lead and they sort of make all investment decisions and then everyone just follows along. And then some syndicates, you know, are smaller and maybe they collectively decide on what investments to make. But the purpose really is the syndicates enable smaller investors to write bigger checks into startups, right? So one of the things that when startups are raising money, it's really hard to manage a cap table. And so I don't know if you've discussed cap tables on the podcast before really. I was gonna say. But you know, the short of a cap table is really like who's invested in the startup, right? Who holds who holds equity in the startup? And it's one thing to have a cap table of like five, six people. It's another thing completely to have a cap table of like 50, 60 people. It becomes quite unwieldy. And so many startup founders don't want to have, you know, 10 to 20 different small checks on their cap table, which is why, you know, people coming together for syndicates um really helps that out, right? Because then I individually can write a check for $5,000, as will my next friend and my next friend and my next friend. And together we can maybe put together 25 to which is a more sort of fit-for-purpose check size uh for these angel investments. Um where do you want to go from there?

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yes, yeah. No, I I I think it's great. And I think it's uh it's good because we're talking about it in a way that like people can hear about it. Like, so if you're interested to to form a syndicate to invest in um startups, you don't have 200 million. Yeah, that's okay. Like we can pool all our money, form a syndicate, and invest and in into um different companies as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Pretty much. And so, you know, I formed a couple of a small syndicate with friends. We would make investment decisions together. We would meet every week to sort of discuss what we were seeing, what was interesting to us. And then we would decide, hey, do we put in a check of $25,000 into XYZ company? And I think that was a really good exercise and like really good training for all our investment muscles, right? Because then you have to go through the process of thinking through, you know, what startups are interesting, the decision-making process of like what's good, what's not, disagreeing, agreeing. That's like a really, a really good exercise. That's one kind of syndicate, I'd say. The other kind of syndicate is one, you know, and there are amazing platforms these days that you can leverage to be able to see, you know, people running syndicates like platforms like Aussie Angels, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Like if you want an education around angel investing, I think joining some of the syndicates that exists within platforms like Aussie Angels is really, really helpful because those deal leads, you know, will bring deals in, write really amazing investment notes as to why they're investing in a particular company. And you, as a regular angel investor, can just decide, oh, I'd like to participate in this particular, in this particular deal. So I yeah, I guess just from a learning curve standpoint, I think that's a really, really good entry point.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah. Huge. And you've learned so much. You get to understand how, okay, it's not a hot topic right now, or it's not, or it's not a hot product, it's not a hot industry, but in five years' time, 10 years' time, it will be. So, like that lens of thinking, because most of the time, the angel deals that I I would get presented are things that I'm like, why are we even talking about this? But having the lens of in in five years, 10 years' time, this is what everyone's gonna be talking about.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, I mean, angel investing, investing in general, right, requires you to have sort of a really longer time horizon in in your head. My joke is that, you know, for investors like myself and many, many others, is it's really hard to say we're good at this until 10 years later, right? When we actually see returns, et cetera. But you really are forced to adopt, you know, a long view of things. Cause where what might not make sense today might make sense to your point five, five to ten years from now. And getting that taste and understanding, you know, where those opportunity sets are, I think comes from being exposed to as much of it as possible, right? Like just it's sort of like exposure therapy, if you will. The more you're around it, the more you meet founders, the more you learn about different industries, the more you're more finely attuned to understanding where trends are going, where the world could possibly be five to 10 years from now. Which I think is an important muscle in investing.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Absolutely. And how have you how do you talk to yourself when it comes to like risk management on things? Because I also advocate for having having runs in the board, but I think for people who haven't done it, one, if they haven't invested whatsoever in an obviously that any investment asset or asset class have some risks associated with it. So how do you talk to yourself when you're about to invest? What's what's this how do you think about it?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

How do I think about it? Well, for angel investing, right? For venture investing, that's highly specific because it's very, it's a very high risk, high reward space, right? Often you're you're investing at a really early stage. Sometimes they have the maybe it's just an idea and a dream, really. And so I think, at least from an angel investing standpoint, from a direct investing standpoint, you have to be comfortable. I don't know if this is a hot take. I don't think it's a hot take at all, but you have to be comfortable with like losing that money, right? Like it's sort of it's it's really high risk. And so with a really high sort of liquidity lockup, it might be five to ten years before you see any of it. And so I think for anyone, like you sort of have to play that calculus. And for angel investing, I think that really does sit in the highest risk bucket. I think ultimately it becomes a question of like how you construct your portfolio. And so how much do you have in that super high risk bucket? Things that you're like, I could lose that and like still be okay. Don't invest your emergency fund into angel investing. And then the other is the end of the spectrum, right? Whether it's fixed fixed income or like other sort of investment instruments where the risk is significantly lower. I don't know. I think I think you just have to think across that whole spectrum and what percentage are you putting in those different buckets. Um depends on your risk appetite, really. I don't know. I don't know if that answers the question.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, it does, it does. And uh one thing that I've said in my workshops before was five percent typically of your portfolio is can be allocated to alternative investments or like venture like high risk investments. Some people are 10%, and I feel like this would be on the riskier side if you're 20%.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

For sure. And it also depends on things like your age, right? And like where you are in life. Like it's very different for a 20-year-old to do that versus like a 50 to 60 year old, like the how you construct that portfolio. I think everyone should be investing at every age, but that also changes as sort of you as you get older. And so I think part of what's exciting here is, you know, with your audience also, is the earlier you start. I mean, people talk about this all the time, right? The better because returns compound over time. Like time is your best friend when it comes to investing. So start young.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

I guess. Yeah. I I just can't help but think of like 20-year-old me thinking about Angel investing back in the right, like totally like not even in the realm of possibility.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

But I think that also comes down to I think that's changing maybe a little bit these days as people are more exposed to technology, the possibility of what can be built, especially in the age of Claude and AI, right? And so I think there's a little bit more awareness these days. Um, and so hopefully that translates to not irresponsible investing, but I think an openness to making those bets or learning really sooner rather than later. Got it.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

And uh would you say we talked a little bit about how women in general are very prepared, like do all the research, uh, prepare everything, have decks, have uh slides, but never really investing. Yeah. Is that is that something that um you've seen repeatedly?

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Or I think women, like like you said, we like to be prepared, right? We like to like make sure all our T's are crossed, our I's are dotted, as much information as possible. I feel like the risk sometimes is that it's creates a sort of inertia. And, you know, we're always waiting for the next bit of information so we can make a better decision. But the reality is we often all have to operate with imperfect information, right? And so it's striking the balance between preparedness, which I think is really important, and you know, action. Whether that's investing or founding a startup, whatever the case might be, I think it's really important to sort of like be able to draw that line for yourself as and say, I think I have as much information as I'll possibly have. You'll have to make it a decision one way or the other. Whether that's making an investment, whether that's building a startup, I think. And and that line is different for different people, right? And so you have to know that for yourself. But it's work I think people have to do and have to be conscious of because it's It's really easy to get like analysis paralysis. More so for women, I think, than you know, the other half of the population.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

But yeah. Yeah, definitely. I I think there's something to be said about um analysis, paralysis, and waiting for the best final super clear information. This always I I'm always interested about like decision-making frameworks and books. Do you have any recommendations for like books or any decision-making frameworks that you personally use?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

I mean, I you know, it's I I can't really recommend the book because I'm meant I'm still about to read it, but I just ordered Annie Duke's Thinking and Bets. And so she's have you heard of it? No. I mean, I can't speak to it comprehensively because I literally just bought it, but um, she's a professional poker player, and so she I, you know, she writes about, yeah. Um, so she writes about, I think, what it means to like make these bets, right? With imperfect information, which I think is a really important skill to have. I actually attended this sort of startup poker night a couple of days ago, which is pretty cool. And, you know, my colleague who sort of organized it, you know, one of the things that she talked about was around poker. Think about it. Like, what does that space look like? It's also very like male-dominated, not a lot of women, because there's a there's this sort of feeling that I don't have that skill set, right? That's hard to do, that's like a guy's game. When in reality, there's skills to be learned, there's strategy, there's and then you like just have to make decisions on imperfect information. And so, like building that confidence to say, this is something that I can also do. This is not a space that's you know for men only. Um, I think it's really important. So introducing women to these spaces, I think. Anyway, that's the book. I don't ask me questions about it because I haven't read it, but it is meant to be, it's meant to be quite good. I can't believe I'm recommending a book I haven't read. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

No, no, no, no. I'm curious about it because definitely poker is the one that, you know, you see a lot of it's it's in the media, right? Like you see it in the movies, it's one of those cool card games. For sure. And you're right, it's definitely something that a lot of I I also find this, it seems like there's a correlation with strategic uh and high-performing people to knowing and playing poker well.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Totally. There's strategy to it, right? There's, you know, you have a limited finite number of cards, finite kinds of cards. Um there's a bit of chance, and it's like, how do you make bets? How big of a bet do you make, depending on what you have and what you don't know and what you know? Like, I think, but it's really a it's in in many ways, it's both as complicated and as simple as that. So, you know, especially for investing, or especially if you think about a framework, I think I think poker is probably a good sort of analog, to be honest. I joke, but sometimes this job is gambling. Don't quote me on that.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

But well, I think we have this discussion. Yeah. But in in some ways it is, and that's actually the reason why we recommend for if if people are thinking of venture investing, it is you put them money that you're kind of okay to lose. Totally. Because it is high risk, high rewards. Yeah. And it is it it is that it is what it is. Yeah. But I love the fact that we have were able to talk about the angel investing domestication and like talk about like the how risky it is and the complexity of it as well. So the last thing that we were going to talk about was um our views on education. Right. Is education, university, MBAs, masters, are they still valuable?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Hot take. Okay. I mean, I went to college, I went to university, I have a double major. I think, I don't think I would necessarily be where I am without my particular education. That said, I don't think I'm successful because of the particular content I learned, right? Like while I was in school. I think education is important if only it gives you the space to put yourself in situations you might not otherwise find, right? So like when I went to school, I'll use myself, yeah. If I use myself as an example as an example, when I went to school, I took like the weirdest classes. Like I did like the classic math, economics, the usual, right? What I was expected to sort of learn. But I also took like Javanese gamelon, Korean art. What? What's that? It's like you know Javanese gamelon. It's like the that instrument from Java. We have it in the Philippines too, called Kolintang, but like the Javanese version of it is like, I'm sure you've seen it, those like metal gong things. I was gonna say, it's like the triangle-looking thing. No, it's like those, like, it's like a it's almost like a piano, like all these different sized gongs like in a row, and you like go like that. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Like I took strange and weird and quirky classes, but I think ultimate and you know, I don't use it day to day. Like, I don't play the gomalon, but like I think like turning on that part of your brain, again, that back to creativity, um, I think is really important. I think, you know, it's an opportunity to meet people and build relationships with people you might not otherwise know. And so I think that's a long-winded to say way of saying, like, look, people can study all they want, but like, unless you like create an environment for yourself where you're meeting different people, trying different things. I think that's ultimately what's important and experimenting. I don't know, like, I think that's what's actually important, right? And so you can go to school, but if you don't do any of these things, I I think you know it is, it'll be challenging. The world is also changing quite rapidly, right? And so people can learn on their own far easier than they ever could before. And so I don't want to discount that. I think that's a valid pathway into life. But it's just about, for me, it's about finding and creating venues for yourself to experience and experiment and meet other people. Sometimes that's cool, sometimes that's not. Totally up to you.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Got it, got it. And last uh, last night I was interviewing a founder and uh she's quite deep in like the AI space as well. So ask this question, and yeah, kind of similar to you. It's like, yes, there is a value in it, but in this day and age where technology is so fast, and what matters more is agency and where you position yourself, what you're truly interested in and what you do with that opportunity is huge.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Totally. I mean, you know, people can have a million master's degrees, and sometimes it means something, sometimes it doesn't. And so, like, it's really what you make of it, right? If you can make something like it, it is completely up to you how valuable it can be or isn't. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Did I tell you that I started like a master's degree in the beginning of the year?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

That's exciting. How's that going? And what? I dropped it. I dropped out. I mean, you know, a quick decision is better than no decision, right? Like what what were you like that? What were you studying or looking to study at least?

SPEAKER_01 30:08

It was applied finance. So I was just like, you know what? I wanna, I wanna study, I wanna get a master's degree uh to prove to myself, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I want to do this. And then I did it, and it was it was one of the most expensive universities in Australia as well. And then maybe because I've been in tech, I know about what a good user experience looks like, what a good UI looks like, and if I'm paying $80,000, it's a lot. These this is my expectation. Correct. Yeah. And I just got there and I was like, what do you mean this is how we're learning? Yeah. And just the way of teaching, the way I was learning, it wasn't enough. And I didn't think it was worth 80k.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

And on top of that, what's the ROI of this? What's the value of this now? Can I get it in any other way? Totally. So that was a short-lived master's, but I'm I'm glad that I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Solid experience. I know. It's good that you decided. I think it really depends on what you're trying to solve for, right? Like if you're young and you know, and you're solving for meeting new people, trying new things, uni can be a great place to do that. But if that's not of interest to you and you want to just build something, that's fine too.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Yeah. Yeah. All I could think about was I'm so glad that I went to uni, that I had my first experience. You had your experience.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know what you're saying. I mean, like, I don't have, for example, I don't have an MBA. And like, I so I have my bachelor's degree. It's so far gone. Like, you know, from very long time ago. But I don't necessarily have an MBA. And on one hand, I'm like, should I do that? That might be interesting. You know, be in the classroom, meet people. You know, there's there's a bit of that, right? It's about like being surrounded by particular people that have experience, that have that are also doing cool things. People do cool things in school sometimes. Yeah, yeah, they do. But at the same time, if I'm trying to see, be like, I want to learn how to like run a financial model, to be honest, I could probably learn that on my own, right? So it really depends. You have to know what you're walking into and very be very clear on what your goal for doing it is. If that's unclear in any way, then yeah, it's hard to get value out of it. That's true for everything, so not just education, but yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

So I think that's a an incredible insight on education, very hot topic right now. And I think with MBAs as well, a lot of schools, I guess, like besides the top-tier level schools, have been discounting their MBAs. Really? That's why I didn't realize that. Because there's less uptake of MBAs. I guess. Maybe Gen Z. So expensive. Yeah, I think maybe Gen Z have realized, well, I can't even get like a really nice paying job. I don't think I can afford to get in debt for this MBA or have the upfront cash for sure to get this.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah. I mean, the cost-benefit analysis is really, I mean, if you run it. Look, I it sometimes is useful for people, right? You go to like a top-tier school, you meet all the right people. That has value, sure. But is it worth, you know, $250,000 in debt? If you go to America, right? Like that's sort of like I think it's even more than that these days. But uh crazy, crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

It's a lot. Yeah. Well, uh well, this is uh a message for those thinking about MBA. I mean, think about it. It could be right for you.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

I don't want to say I don't want, I don't want to be like, don't do it. Yeah. It could be right for you, but you just have to know what you're getting into.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Also, caveat, see if you can get a scholarship in these universities because I find not many people apply to the scholarship. Kind of like to the scholarships or like they discount themselves.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Don't discount yourself.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Sometimes you think you just have to try. Totally. I it's you know, I think there's so much value in that. Just try. Just ask, right? The worst that could happen is you get a no. Okay, great. And more information.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Sometimes exactly. And sometimes it's a no, and then the person that they've offered it to is like some somehow they can't do it or they can't take the offer. Sure. And guess who will call who they will call in the wait list. Exactly. Person who followed up.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, apply for that scholarship. I wouldn't be, I went to school on a scholarship, and I, you know, it was a really sort of, you know, they picked, I'm not trying to sound whatever about it, but like it was a scholarship that went to two people in the Philippines every year.

unknown 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

And so, you know, that's really competitive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

And also in the Philippines, it's so competitive. Yeah. It can yeah, it can be very competitive. And so, like, you know, what did I know? But you know, sometimes ignorance is is better than knowing too much. And so apply anyway. Like, what do you have to lose? Yeah, sure, the time and effort takes to put something together, but if you can afford it from that perspective, time and effort. When you're young, especially, why not?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

Yeah. Well, I love it. Um, I I got a scholarship as well in one for my high school in the Philippines. And that's why I know that it's like it's pretty competitive as well. Yeah. And there's a lot more people and uh for uni in Singapore. Oh yeah. Did you go to uni in Singapore? Just for like a program in Nanyang Technology University. Okay, cool. Good school. Yeah. But it's one of those things that I actually didn't, I didn't get it initially. Yeah. I wasn't in their top 10 recipients. Yeah, yeah. And then I called up and followed up and they they they said no. But later a few weeks ago, a few weeks later, one of the top 10 recipients couldn't do the program. So they offered it to me. And I'm like, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, that's amazing. I like, you know, persistence and just real focus. I think. You know, we we we put a lot of value on talent and all that, which is great, right? Like, but there's a lot of value also in just being persistent and and hard work and like focusing your energies on the things that you really want.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

So yesterday I got uh with with uh my interview yesterday with this founder. She said that one of her friends sent like 25 follow-up emails. Or is it 25 or just 20 follow-up emails like no response whatsoever? Yeah. And then it just like maybe a few months later, they got a $25 million deal. Yeah. I was like, from 20, I was like, wow, I give up after like three.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Yeah, I know, right? Rejection is, I mean, look, rejection and like your reaction to rejection is a very human emotion. Like, I think that's valid. I think you can feel bad, but like then it's a question of like just keep going or like keep doing it. If this is something you really want, right? Like, but you have to be very clear about like how important this is to you and like if it's something you really want.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can talk for ages with you, and I think we've touched on this already, but before we wrap up, you've been in the working scene for a while, you've done career transitions and you've moved countries. Yeah. What advice would you give to 20-year-olds today?

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Invest early in time compounds. No, I'd say, you know, I think building skills is important, but also building relationships is also really important. And so you never know, you know, the next it's often the unlikeliest of people that might sort of help you in your next step, right, of your career. And so I think building skills, do it, they're in all the things, but you know, also build relationships. I think that's that's really key. And I think the other thing is just like say yes to things, even if they're kind of scary or even kind of uncomfortable. Like, you know, the non-linear career moves. I've jumped around a bit and you know, maybe my act three is in some creative space. Talk to me in five to ten years.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Manifesting for you.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, exactly. Thanks. Um, but you gotta back yourself, and sometimes that means you might not feel ready, but you know, just do it. I think if you're 20, then you have the advantage of youth, right? And so if if it doesn't work out, you're not, you know, you still have so much time. You can figure something else out. And so I think saying yes to things, even if you're suddenly comfortable uncomfortable, backing yourself, even if you don't feel fully prepared. Prepare as much as you can, but you don't have to be. I think it's a it's a myth that you can ever be a hundred percent prepared for anything.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

So yeah. Yeah, definitely perfect. And the last question, I promise. What is one thing you wish people would stop telling young women founders or women in tech?

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Look, I I think in the same vein, right? Like we tell, you know, people of color, women, minority, like you have to be like we say things like you have to be twice as good to get like half as far. We say things like that because we are sometimes held to like a different standard because society. And on one hand, maybe that's motivating. On the other, I think it creates again this trap of perfectionism and having to be 100% prepared before you do anything. I think you sometimes you just have to be good enough and then, you know, raise your hand and do it. I think that's that's definitely one thing. And obviously, I think which you'll agree with, you know, there's all there's always this myth of like find your passion and the money will will follow, which is great in theory. But I think it is really important to be financially literate. You can be passionate and build things that you really like or you're really interested in, but you know, you have to be strategic. It's it's taboo, but money is important, it makes the world go round, right? And so, like getting that comfort and literacy, especially for a population women who have, you know, historically been told stay in your lane, right? Not not your place to do. Like, I I think that's also really important. And I I think from a capability standpoint, like you are more than capable. You just if you need a confidence boost, here it is. Like, you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you. I know that a lot of people will want to hear that sometimes you you just wanna you just want sometimes someone to tell you that, like, look, rejection is fine, give it a try. Make sure that you're financially stable and you can follow your passion once you're financially stable. I I actually agree with that. I mean I agree with that a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

I don't know about like I'm saying follow your like I I think you can do both, right? Like, or you know, I think keeping an eye on it and like figuring out, I think you just have to be smart about it and don't be scared to learn about it, I think is more more more that than anything else, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah, definitely. I do I the people that I've met who have followed their passions and they didn't really think about like the financial or like the livelihood implications typically have come from generational wealth.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Totally, right? And so that's not like I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah, that's nothing to say about privilege, right? Like peep some people will come from really privileged positions, others will not. And so whether we like it or not, that really plays into it. So we're thinking about it. Yeah, huge, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

Well, Chanel, thank you so much for being on the pod. Thank you. I can't wait for this to be released. I know that a lot of people will find this super insightful and aspiring.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Great. Thanks for having me. It really a pleasure. Good to chat and chat about whatever all day. So absolutely. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Thank you for listening to another episode of Fiery Fems. If this resonated, share it with a woman in your life because we rise higher when we rise together. Don't forget to follow and review. It helps more women access the tools and conversations that build wealth and confidence. For more career and financial empowerment, come hang out on Instagram and YouTube at FieryFems. I'll see you in the next episode.