Who is Responsible?

In the last several episodes of Idle Treasure, we’ve been unpacking reasons why money in DAFs stay stagnant.

Many people are starting to wonder who should be held accountable for the DAF dilemma.

Some say it’s the government’s responsibility to put more regulations in place.

Some say the duty falls on the advisors and DAF sponsors.

Some say it is up to the individual to ensure funds are deployed.

And many say it is a different entity entirely that should be held accountable. 

In this episode, we look at four key players in the DAF dilemma and begin asking: Who’s responsible for creating change?

Idle Treasure is sponsored by the Center for Financial Discipleship.

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Question

Speaker 1 0:00

If you've read the Chronicles of Narnia series, you might be familiar with two children named Diggory and Polly. Through a sequence of unfortunate events, Diggory and Polly find themselves at the mercy of an evil Uncle Andrew, who sends the kids into an unknown world. No one knew what this new world would look like. Would it be dangerous or delightful? Would the people there look like them, or would they resemble aliens? The only thing the kids knew for sure was that wherever they were going, it wasn't home. Curiously, Diggory and Polly don't find themselves in another world at all. They end up in an in-between place. They are neither at home nor in another world. The in-between place is a quiet forest. It's a place where nothing happens except trees grow. The air around them is sweet and dreamy, and in the in-between place, people become sleepy, forgetful, and a little confused. Upon arrival, Diggory and Polly begin to lose sight of who they are and what their mission is. Many people see DAFs as the in-between place. Money goes there with an intention to do good, but it ends up getting stuck. And our good intentions often become forgotten, and our urgency to help others is replaced with a quiet resistance. In today's conversation, we'll look at four players in the DAF dilemma and begin asking who's responsible for creating change? Let's get ready.

The Narnia Metaphor For Stuck Giving

Speaker 1 2:11

Some Christians say there isn't a problem. Others are frustrated by the amount of charitable assets not getting deployed. But this story isn't just about donor advice funds. It is about you and me. This is a story about how our culture has shaped the way Christians behave with money. It's a story about the goodness of wealth and the weight of responsibility we feel to steward at wealth. It's a story about the vulnerable reasons why we often keep money to ourselves. And it's about the opportunity of a moment. Journey with me as we seek the answer. How should Christians respond to this idle treasure? In the last several episodes of Idle Treasure, we've been unpacking reasons why money and donor advised funds stay stagnant. And a natural next question is who's responsible for creating change? Some say it's the government's responsibility to put more regulations in place. Some say the duty falls on the advisors and DAF sponsors. Some say it's up to the individual to ensure funds are deployed. And many say it's a different entity entirely that should be held accountable. We'll explore each of these in today's conversation and we'll be joined by several past interviewees. While our goal today isn't to dive deep into possible solutions for the DAF dilemma, a few will naturally come to the surface. So just know we'll cover more solutions in upcoming episodes. As we begin today's conversation, consider how you've been thinking about the DAF dilemma so far. Who, in your mind, is responsible for creating change? The answer may not be as clear as you think. Let's begin by examining government systems and regulations. So if you've been following along with the Idol Treasure series, you're familiar with the name Terry Parker. Terry founded the National Christian Foundation and helped set regulations in place that would influence the modern donor advised fund. His heart was to encourage Christian generosity and create a tool that made giving easier. And although we can celebrate the billions of dollars that have been given to charity over the years, we can't ignore the $325 billion elephant in the room. With the amount in DAFs continuing to grow, many people are starting to propose regulation changes. Some people are asking the government to place a minimum distribution rate onto DAFs in order to deploy more funds. Currently, there isn't one. So technically, I could open a DAF, put money into it, receive a tax break, and never give the funds away to charity. And for some DAF users, intended or not, that is exactly what's happening. A minimum distribution rate would force those people to start giving money from their donor advised funds. And on paper, this idea makes sense. But I think the reality of a mandatory minimum distribution rate would actually play out much differently. I actually think this might cause distributions to decrease. I know that seems backwards, but let's use private foundations as an example. Private foundations are legally required to distribute at least five percent of their net assets annually. Interestingly enough, the average payout rate for private foundations hovers right around five percent. Let's also use the tithe as an example. Many Christians are familiar with the Old Testament command to give 10% of your income. But if you look at the statistics, it appears most Christians see the 10% tithe as something to aspire to. And once they reach

Should Government Regulate DAF Payouts

Speaker 1 5:50

it, very few feel compelled to give over 10%. So in the context of private foundations and the local church, the ideal minimum requirement often doesn't act as a floor, it acts as a ceiling. The current distribution rate for DAFs is 25%, and that's without any legal requirements. So if the dialogue changes and DAF users are given a minimum distribution requirement of let's say 5 to 10%, I suspect that may put a cap on people's creativity and their ability to see beyond the fulfillment of the minimum requirement. Other regulation changes have been suggested, such as changing the timing of the tax deduction so that they occur once funds have been deployed from the DAF and given to a nonprofit, rather than being received when funds initially are placed into the DAF. One more suggestion worth mentioning is instilling a mandatory distribution timeline where funds from a DAF would need to be spent down within 15 to 50 years. These regulation changes may help deploy more funds, which would be a good thing, and I understand is the point of advocating for such changes. But as we seek the Christian response to the money accumulating in DAFs, we also have to acknowledge that simply putting more regulations in place will not account for the heart issues that lie beneath our lack of giving. Now let's shift our focus to financial advisors and DAF sponsors who help individuals open and manage donor advised funds. These folks have gotten some heat because of their perceived role in playing accomplice to holding funds within DAFs. There's a conflict of interest that's easy to point at. Advisors and DAF sponsors receive a financial incentive for managing money in DAFs. It's worth noting that some service providers have felt this tension, so they've decided not to receive income from managing DAFs, which removes any possible conflict of interest with distributing funds. Now, that solution may not be workable for everyone, but let's consider again what is the responsibility of advisors to ensure the funds are deployed to charity.

Speaker 8:21

So uh I, as the advisor, perhaps told them about the DAF, uh helped them understand the DAF. And so I was a part of, in many, many cases, in fact, in most cases, I was a part of the process of putting money into the DAF. But the philosophy that uh I had, and beliefs that I had, was that that was just a vehicle for giving. So that the giving that coming out of the DAF would have been the clients' responsibility to make that decision, of course. They were the only only ones that uh really could, but it was typically done in conversation

Advisors And Sponsors Shaping The Story

Speaker 9:08

with me.

Speaker 1 9:09

This is Ron Blue, who we met in episode one. Ron worked closely with Terry Parker, and as a financial advisor, he helped countless clients utilize donor advised funds.

Speaker 9:20

Whose responsibility was it? Well, me as an advisor, uh I didn't have the responsibility for making the decision, but I did have the conviction and the belief that the DAF was a temporary stopping point. And so my advice would have been consistent with that in each unique situation.

Speaker 1 9:45

Ron makes the point that although the individual has the ultimate say in how funds are distributed, it is the service provider's responsibility to have the conversation, to make sure there is a giving plan in place, and to even challenge or encourage clients when funds become idle. Ron uses the word consistent, meaning he would talk about giving in a way that is consistent with Scripture. Our words have weight and carrying meaning, and Christian advisors need to be cautious of the messages they're spreading, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Someone who is helping change the conversation around wealth and giving is John Rinehart, founder and CEO of Gospel Patrons.

Speaker 8 10:27

I'm friends with a lot of Christian financial advisors who work for a variety of different firms, and I love these guys and gals, and they're doing their best. What I've learned from being friends with Christian financial advisors is that many of them are trained, that the starting place in a conversation with a new prospective client is something goes something like this. Where do you see yourself over the next 20, 30, 40 years? And how do we help you get there? What are your goals, your ambitions, your desires? And how can we set up a plan that would help you achieve them? The problem with that is it's starting from the wrong place. It's putting the client in the center of their own story. The center of the story for each of us ought to be the one who's in the center of the universe, Jesus Christ. He's the center. We're not the center of our story. But even the nature of that question puts a client, a wealthy client, in the center of their own story. And that's a dangerous thing. It's starting from the wrong place. Imagine if a whole generation of Christian financial advisors started the conversation with their clients every year like this. Hey, God is moving on the earth. He's doing extraordinary things in our generation. Our time on earth is very short. What things that God is up to in the world would you like to contribute to? When you think about your life in 20, 30, or 40 years, what would you say, I got to be a part of that? I got to fuel and fund what God was doing in this area or this part of the world or this cause or this church plant or these missionaries or this alleviation of suffering and poverty? What part of God's heart have you been called to carry? And how can we set up a plan that would help you maximize eternal fruitfulness for the sake of your everlasting joy and God's everlasting glory? What if we started there? What if we invited our clients to see wealth in a much longer term, bigger picture story than they've ever dreamed? Because that's where the Bible goes. Luke chapter 16 says, use worldly wealth to make friends for yourselves for eternity, who will welcome you into their eternal dwellings. When you get across the finish line of life and it's like a marathon, and there's a whole bunch of people lining the finish line and cheering on that last mile, what we do with our wealth and our lives now does determine the number of people who will be at that finish line ready to greet us and ready to say thank you. Man, I want a huge finish line from all kinds of people who've somehow been touched or impacted through my life or my giving or my generosity. And the Bible would say what we do with our wealth now here on earth really does echo into eternity. That's not the conversation that most financial professionals are having. We are starting from the wrong place and it leads us to a wrong end then, where we are encouraging people to build bigger barns, store up more for themselves, leave more to their children, and give very little in light of eternity. Man, I think that's a missed opportunity. What if we were eternal financial advisors, helping people store up treasure where it will never, moth will never, right? It will never rust, moth will never destroy it, thieves will never break in and steal it, but it will be waiting for us on the other side. I'd love to see that happen.

Speaker 1 14:01

John's message may be directed at financial advisors, but it applies to all of us. It's worth pausing and asking yourself, who's at the center of your story? Do your actions revolve around joining in God's work? Or do you make decisions based on what you want and then ask God to bless the outcomes? When it comes to stewarding wealth, we may be starting from the wrong place, resulting in a missed opportunity. We will discuss more ways advisors can begin changing the DAF narrative in an upcoming episode. But for now, let's continue pressing into who is ultimately responsible for making sure charitable funds are distributed to nonprofits. An obvious choice is the individual DAF user. This is Dr. Gary Hoag, who we've gotten to know in the last few episodes. Gary plays many roles in the generosity space, and it's worth mentioning for today's conversation that he's a biblical scholar who served as the vice president at Denver Seminary and teaches in seminaries around the world. During our interview, I asked Gary to share how Christians ought to be thinking about the nearly two trillion dollars of stored charitable assets that are within DAFs and private foundations. We heard a piece of this clip in a previous episode, but it's worth repeating.

Speaker 4 15:44

And there's an expression in verse 58 where it says, Joseph opened the storehouses. Now, um, I believe when God provides an abundance, it's to be put to work. Now, it may not be put to work in that year. In the case of Joseph, it was put to work over a season of seven years. And so my answer is gonna be I think those resources, it's what, you know, 200. I mean, the number is probably changing every day. My answer is I think we need to open those storehouses. Okay. Now I'm gonna say to you descriptively

The Individual Call To Open Storehouses

Speaker 4 16:25

and not prescriptively. Prescriptively would be a universal answer for everyone. Do this. I'm gonna say descriptively, the people who steward those storehouses didn't get to the place of stewardship by being bad stewards. God obviously entrusted them with incredible wealth because he knew they could handle it. The challenge is once we hold on to riches, riches get a hold on to us. And so I think we need to open those storehouses descriptively, following the leading of God. In the case of Joseph, seven years. Open them up. Let's move this resources. In the case of my own personal resources, or um at uh the organization where I serve, we talk about when God provides lumps, let's put it to work over about five years. But again, this is how I feel led to infuse resources into ministry over time, not necessarily in one shot, and not just holding them for years and years and years.

Speaker 1 17:33

Gary gives a great example of Joseph preparing for the famine in Egypt, and it dawns on me that this is one of the only stories in Scripture where God compels people to save up for the future. And it's not a command for one individual, but for an entire community working together. And it's not saving for an ambiguous length of time, but there is a set purpose, an occasion for the call to save. And then I began to wonder, how many people have been taught this? How many people understand the difference between biblical saving and hoarding? Scripture reinforces that wealth can be good, but it was meant to serve entire communities, not be stored up for individual families. And as Gary mentions, wealth is meant to be put to work in God's kingdom, not sit on the sidelines. We could look at scripture and see that Jesus never commanded people to save more or build their wealth, but he did compel people to give. And throughout the New Testament, saving money was really only brought up when Paul compelled people in 1 Corinthians 16 to put aside money so that they had something to give. Paul also compels the thieves to begin working so that they can give. It's about protecting people. Hear me when I say having money and savings isn't wrong. But based on the scriptural evidence, I imagine most of us are saving up far more than we need, and far more than God actually wants us to keep. And while we hoard funds for future needs that are uncertain, people around the world are actively suffering. Right now, young girls are missing school because they must walk miles from their home to collect dirty water for their families to drink. Right now, people are being sold into slavery. Right now, people are sick from a lack of food and don't have access to basic health care. Right now, people are dying, having never heard the gospel. And another entity begins coming into view. When interviewing financial experts and ministry leaders, our conversation often led back to the church. Money is a topic most pastors avoid talking about, and the statistics would agree. The average Christian gives less today than during the Great Depression. And an article by Christian Stewardship Network reported that in terms of giving dollars, it will take 10 Gen Z givers to replace one baby boomer. Many people are saying this is a conversation the church can't ignore anymore. There are several challenges church leaders face when talking about money. The most basic challenge being the majority of pastors aren't given instructions on how to teach biblical stewardship.

Speaker 4 20:26

Well, I think the the spiritual implications behind the fact that Christians seem to handle money no different from someone else means they have lacked the instruction from their pastors. Again, part of the reason I've dedicated my life to encouraging Christian generosity is I feel like and I can I'll own this in that I went to seminary. I'm an ordained minister, so you could say I'm a reverend doctor. And when I was in seminary, they weren't teaching a class on biblical stewardship and resource development. So when I became a vice president at Denver Seminary in 2002, by 03, I was teaching a course called Biblical Stewardship and Resource Development. And the seminary students were saying, Oh my goodness, I was so scared. Watch, if they were going to be a pastor, they said, I was so scared to talk about money because none of my courses talked about it. And if they were going to go be a ministry worker, like go run a Christian school or run a rescue mission, they were saying, Oh, I'm so glad to take this course because I knew one of my responsibilities was going to be to

Why The Church Struggles To Teach Money

Speaker 4 21:34

go raise money, but I had no idea how to do it. And so I think firstly, I'll acknowledge that there's been a lack of instruction in the seminary settings created in the whole nonprofit sector, pastors as well as ministry workers, people ill equipped to talk thoughtfully and biblically about money. If we acknowledge, though, that the pastors and ministry workers are not. um articulate or not training others, then it doesn't surprise us that the people are fun are behaving no different from the world around them.

Speaker 1 22:10

There are other unique factors that make money conversations particularly challenging for churches in the West.

Speaker 3 22:16

I worked with the church in the West for 10 probably yeah close to 15 years. I think we've created an infrastructure that just takes so much money and capital to do church in the West that we have insulated our people from hearing it without the thought of an agenda. Like we can talk about this as a discipleship issue. And I think a lot of pastors sincerely mean that like it is a discipleship issue. But when you have to do capital campaigns every three to four years to build bigger and bigger infrastructure, I think people get tired of it. Like it just becomes another okay here it comes because there's going to be an ask behind it. So I think that I think the infrastructure that takes so much capital in the West can be a huge hindrance to talking about money and possessions. Because I think people feel uncomfortable about it.

Speaker 1 23:11

This is Patrick Johnson founder and visionary of Generous Church.

Speaker 3 23:15

Patrick is narrowing in on a major pain point and often a huge barrier for people giving to church I was talking to the former executive pastor of a mega church in the United States who we would we all know the pastor because he's famous. And he said let me tell you a secret he said I don't think pastors who grow larger churches most of them don't set out to create those large churches. It just sort of happens and they get stuck they get stuck with all the overhead they get stuck with all the staff that depends on the giving and I think there's something unique about the way we do church in the West which may make it more difficult to even talk about money because of the infrastructure that we have and the way we do church. And that's hard I mean that's sobering right that's sobering. And that's not a condemnation I'm I'm not judging.

Speaker 1 24:09

I'm just saying I think it's a reality so we've created a system that takes a lot of money to do church which results in a steady flow of capital campaigns. The danger is that many churchgoers now have a warped perspective on giving and financial discipleship. Let's hear from Leo Sabo, the president of the Christian Stewardship Network. Leo worked as the stewardship pastor for one of the largest churches in the country and now has the privilege of training and discipling stewardship leaders throughout the U.S. In this clip Leo is talking about how pastors have awakened to a new boldness about asking their congregations to give in light of the research that shows a large percentage of congregation members aren't giving anything to church.

Speaker 2 24:55

So as pastors have gotten this information they're thinking okay what do we need to do? We need to fix this because there's obviously a disconnect between what we're saying and what we're preaching and people's response. And so that that has caused them to be more bold I think in talking about giving now that's a good thing but it could also be a bad thing. And a bad thing because if we just talk about giving then we can actually make people more resistant to discipleship in the area of finances because it's one-sided people think well great I go to church I listen to a sermon or I bring my friend with and all they talk about money but really all they talk about is giving money. They don't talk about money in a way that helps me. And that's where I think the pastors sometimes in churches miss it. They do a good job of talking about giving that's really gotten a lot better. They focus on the giving moment you know learn how to do it well learn how to communicate well and some churches understand the need to say especially to younger generation hey here's what your church is doing. Here's the lives we're impacting and that does motivate people to give however if all we do is talk about how they can give to the church it does two things. One it says your giving between is between us and you mean you give to the church and then we'll go do great things with it. Right? And the problem with that is it makes people think well I don't do anything for God I just give to the church so they can do things for God. So it takes us out of the equation because of the communication. And then the other thing that it does unfortunately is it creates a this um almost an animosity toward the leader because they're only talking about giving but they don't know what I'm going through financially. But I'm in financial mess. I've got debt I've got financial stress me and my wife are arguing all the time about money and you're not giving me any hope and you're not teaching me what God's word says about this area and how to have victory in this area then I'm looking at this message of giving as one-sided. So that's where the problem comes in with these the the response of the pastors. They see the trends but unfortunately the solution isn't holistic. They're just trying to stoke the fire.

Speaker 1 27:09

So on one side we have church leaders who honestly want to disciple their congregation but they don't feel equipped to lead their church in healthy money discussions. The church may be growing or experiencing financial challenges which creates a sense of boldness to make financial asks but at the same time the messaging often feels one-sided like the church wants something from you instead of wanting something for you. And pastors and church leaders are now faced with the challenge of meeting immediate financial needs and investing in the long-term financial discipleship of their congregations.

Speaker 2 27:44

And it's hard for pastors because they're like in need right now right so that's what I see and unfortunately sometimes that's uh defeating rather than helping because it doesn't actually solve the problem. It may temporarily put some money on the table because people feel obligated or guilty that they should give but it doesn't really help to disciple people and help people become lifelong generous toward God's kingdom kind of people but not distributing funds to charity we have advisors and DAF sponsors who financially benefit from managing money in DAFs we have individuals who I believe have a desire to be generous but for various reasons are stalled in their giving and we have church leaders who feel ill-equipped to teach God's word about money.

Speaker 1 28:41

When you add all this up you get billions of dollars stuck in the in-between place not really helping anyone when I started releasing episodes for Idle Treasure people began reaching out to share their view of the DAF story. Everyone has an idea who ultimately is responsible and should be held accountable. And I think each argument has merit. But what I find compelling is no one has reached out to me yet specifically to take ownership of their role in the DAF dilemma. So whether you're an advisor, a DAF sponsor a ministry leader, a pastor or an individual DAF user, I would encourage you to listen to the remaining episodes not criticizing or asking who's responsible for these issues but rather asking yourself how can I become part of the solution there's a feeling like weight upon my chest a heavy heart that keeps me up all night in all familiar battle battle learning how to fight I'm gonna walk outside put my hands in the dirt gonna lay a sea in the broken earth gonna wait for the sun pray for the rain my

Owning Our Part And Final Challenge

Speaker 1 30:33

act of resistance is gardening Thank you for listening to Idle Treasure. Special thanks to Ron Blue, John Rinehart, Dr. Gary Hoag, Patrick Johnson and Leo Sabo. Our closing song this week is Gardening by JJ Heller. If you wish to support the podcast please leave us a rating and review. Join us next week for part one of the conclusion to the Idle Treasure series. We'll hear from a few new voices and begin unpacking possible solutions to the DAF dilemma put my hands in the dirt gonna let us see in the broken earth.