Introduction: The Fashion Situation Room Episode #1

The Fashion Situation Room is a podcast offering unfiltered conversations about what’s really happening inside the global fashion industry — and what needs to change next.

Hosted by Michael Jordan, Britta Cabanos, and Peter McLaughlin, the show brings together nearly a century of combined experience across fashion design, sustainability strategy, education, journalism, and brand storytelling. Each episode blends strategies, solutions, sustainability, and storytelling into thoughtful, evidence-informed discussions designed to be both practical and human.

This isn’t trend-chasing or surface-level commentary. We track the most significant movements shaping fashion today — from supply chains and technology to mental health, ethics, regulation, and creative resilience — and translate them into clear insights you can actually use.

What you’ll hear:

• Honest, informed conversations about the challenges and opportunities facing fashion today
• Strategic analysis of industry trends — and what they really mean on the ground
• Stories from the frontlines, featuring designers, educators, founders, and change-makers
• Actionable perspectives that bridge creativity, responsibility, and business reality

Episode 1:

In our inaugural episode, we introduce who we are, how we came together, and why this podcast needed to exist. We then dive into a wide-ranging conversation on:

• The most defining fashion and sustainability trends of 2025
• What we see coming next — and what to watch for in 2026

Whether you’re a student, designer, brand founder, creative professional, or simply someone who cares about where fashion is headed, The Fashion Situation Room is your space for informed dialogue, grounded insight, and forward-thinking conversation.

New episodes drop every two weeks.
 Pull up a chair — the conversation starts here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Fashion Situation Room, a podcast from the front lines of the fashion industry. I'm your host, Michael Jordan, and these are my two co-hosts.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello, I'm Britt Cabanos.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

And hey there, I'm Peter McLachlan. In this podcast, we offer you real talk about what impacts the fashion industry, particularly through the four S's: strategies, sustainability, storytelling, and solutions. With our finger on the pulse of the most meaningful business trends, which will also bring to life with impactful guests along the way, we aim to provide you with actionable insights that will benefit you. Thank you for joining us. Let's jump in. Welcome everyone to our first ever episode of the Fashion Situation Room, a podcast from the front lines of the fashion industry where we offer real talk that explores the four S's strategies, solutions, sustainability, and storytelling. All of it aimed to provide you with actionable insights that ideally will benefit you somehow. I'm your host, Michael Jordan. No, not that Michael Jordan. My background is as a foreign correspondent, uh, global communications specialist. And nowadays I also focus on fashion sustainability storytelling. These are my two co-hosts, Brita Cabanos and Peter McLachlan. Brita, go ahead, please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yes, hello, Michael and Peter, and everyone listening. My name is Britta Cabanos, and I am the founder of Inside Fashion Design and the Conscious Fashion Design Academy. I founded those really started in 2017 when I had been in the industry for many, many years, and I found a lot of people coming to me just asking for career advice or behind-the-scenes stories. And I enjoy writing and photography. And so I launched as a website and since 2017 has evolved into online education, resources, industry insights, inspirations, workshops, events. So we keep evolving and adding to our program and offering readers and our audience a place to go to find help and support and guidance, career advice, even including mental wellness, because that's so important these days. So, so really expanding and building a global resource hub for the fashion design industry.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

As I describe Brita, I say that you're on the front lines of conscious fashion education. And Peter, go ahead and tell us a little something about yourself, please.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Hi everyone. My name is Peter McLaughlin. I'm originally from Belfast in Northern Ireland. I'm a sustainability strategist and former design director with a global career from working in Milan for Versace, Kritzia, in Amsterdam for Tommy Hilfiger, and here in New York, where I currently am for Ellie Tahari, Jennifer Lopez, and Ellen DeGenerist. I got a master's in sustainability from Harvard during the pandemic, where I like to mix the deep roots of the fashion industry, leading teams, building brands across Europe, Asia, and the US. So I bring a creative, cross-functional approach to design, innovation, and strategy. And so ultimately, I really just love to work with brands and help them make better decisions.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

And especially compared with my colleagues here, I'm the one with the the least amount of fashion experience. My background, as I mentioned, is primarily in journalism. I was a foreign correspondent for 20 years, reporting from 30 different countries. I've been fortunate enough to have lived in Europe, Africa, and Asia. And now having evolved into global brand communications, media strategy, media relations, and as I said, fashion sustainability storytelling. And so while we know that there's a wide range of fashion podcasts already out there, already contributing value, what we believe will distinguish our podcast is how is our perspective, our unique trio of historical perspectives over the past three decades or so. We don't need to get into how old exactly we are. But in addition to sharing our perspectives, keeping our finger on the pulse of the fashion industry, talking about some of the hot button issues of the day, we will also have unique guests, one guest per episode who's on the front lines of some unique aspect of the industry. And they will not only uh provide us with with their own analysis and observations from what they see on the ground, but also some real life stories, storytelling, evidence-driven examples to really illuminate some of the challenge, challenges that we'll be exploring as a team, right? Let me ask you before I move on, anything else that I miss that uh that our podcast will be covering?

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Yeah, I think you've I think you've covered it. And like you, like Michael mentioned, talking about strategy and solutions too, because there's so much talk out there on what needs to be done, but how do we really solve the issues or work towards you know making improvements? So I think we're gonna hopefully our aim is to really offer some calls, call to action with folks where or give ideas and suggestions on how we can take those steps to make a better impact and solve some of those problems that we we need solutions for.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yes, and I think that one of the key things that we bring to the table that maybe is that we're taking it from a business perspective. So it isn't just focusing on sustainability, but it's really uh solutions and strategies for businesses, by businesses, to help businesses make those better decisions.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

And I should say that I I can't guarantee that we'll produce uh definitive uh solutions to some of these challenges, that we will always strive to be evidence driven. That uh showing on screen, for example, some of our own research, uh pointing to some of the most important studies of the day or leading articles. We even have a few to show you in a few minutes from from Forbes, from Vogue, from from others. And so we'll always try to show you where our facts and evidence are coming from so we can all make the most informed possible decisions.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah, I'll add in another thing is that this is also for consumers that are just interested about the fashion, the state of fashion. So if you're a fashion, you know, love fashion, want to learn about fashion, it's a great place, or just a customer who enjoys fashion. This is also a hopefully will provide a lot of information as a consumer and customers of of fashion on how you can also affect what happens by where you spend your money and brands you support. So looking at it from both behind the scenes within the industry and as a consumer perspective.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, that's a great point. It's really what's going on from a business perspective, but also that will inevitably affect consumers, how they purchase, why they purchase, and really what products are available to them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

That's that's right. And and I I do want to also say we touched a little bit on on the audience. You know, we do see us see this podcast as trying to reach a fairly wide audience, anyone curious about these issues, but including fashion students and those who have recently entered the industry with their startup companies, for example, startup brands, those who are working for for larger operations and want to understand some of these issues more clearly. So, so anyone curious and interested who wants to learn a little more within our 45 minute to 60 minute podcast, always aiming to deliver at least one, two, three things of of value to you that you can even apply to your your operation moving forward. Actionable insights, that sort of thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Very important and and plus the added benefit is that the three of us are are friends. In fact, let me just explain how how the three of us, despite our disparate uh and diverse backgrounds, how we we met. I first met Peter a little more than three years ago online during COVID. He was volunteering for a large nonprofit based in France and Geneva, Switzerland, right? An international organization focused on aid and assistance for NGOs, the nonprofit world. And so I offered a training in SDG, sustainable development goals, storytelling, and sustainability storytelling, how nonprofits can prove their results, prove their impact, more than just words, how to support that with evidence, folded into real life stories, storytelling to bring to life challenges nonprofits face on the ground around the world. And then Peter, as a member of that organization, then organized a second such session. Maybe at some point we'll show links to that training, that webinar that we had on sustainability storytelling. So then we had met a few years ago, right? And Peter and I then agreed that we got along so well. And plus, I'm in Manhattan, he's in Brooklyn, or you were in Brooklyn at the time, now also in in Manhattan. And then it was a year and a half, so we agreed to to somehow cooperate in this fashion. We stayed friends and friends and colleagues. And then a year and a half ago, I met Brita during New York Fashion Week, September 2024, right? At an event. You are hosted as you know, you you're you're headquartered in Portland, but you're often here in New York. In fact, you were just here for a few weeks for for now. We're recording, it was February 2026, New York Fashion Week, in case this is ever in the archives in the time capital.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

But it's still coming up next week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

That's right. And so you are you're here for every New York Fashion Week, right? Twice a year, often hosting your own events, very actively involved. And so I met you at one of your events. And what do you recall about how how we met, Brita?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah, this is I love this story because we met briefly. I was hosting the event and running around, you know, making sure everything was running smoothly. And I met you very briefly uh through through Siamanda, our mutual friend. But what happened after is that I posted something on LinkedIn about the event, and we had these amazing lineup of speakers. It was all around sustainability, had some key, you know, key industry players that are working in that space share their stories. And then afterwards, you had, after I'd posted on LinkedIn, you made a comment and you said, okay, this all sounds great and the event was great, the speakers were great, but show me the proof.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Show me the proof.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Yep. And that really, at first I I was like, oh, okay, I wasn't sure if I should be offended or should I you know, is he being is he being a jerk or is he really, you know, so I gave it some thought and I'm like, absolutely, you were 100% right. We talk about sustainability all day long.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

In con conscious fashion.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

In conscious fashion, but where's the data? You were you were saying, show me the data of what these people, they say they're doing these things, but where's the results? You know, even if they hadn't reached that top uh final goal, what progress are they making? So I had reached out and replied to your comment, and I think I said something to that effect, like you're absolutely right. And how do we do that? And we started this dialogue of proving your impact, finding the data, sharing the data so that it's evidence driven, keywords I've learned from you, and now I look through everything that I do with that lens. So so you've really inspired me and influenced my work in the last year and a half, and and I've evolved in the content that I produce because of you calling out that it needs to be proven, you need to show the data behind it. And so thank you for doing that. And I really appreciate it. And I I do feel it's it's progressed me forward more because I am being more thoughtful about what I, you know, what I print, what I share, what I promote. Because if you don't have, I mean, we all know about greenwashing, and without that proven data, I can't just, you know, I'm posting stories about ethical makers and promoting someone saying, hey, I love this brand. And then you can start digging deeper and realize, okay, they say they're sustainable, but yet they're using horrible materials in their collections or whatnot. So anyway, it's a long drown out answer to your question. But I I do have to say, like you really influenced my work and shaped the way I do things today.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

It was good to get the receipts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

And and and you know what? Just just to to add one one point to it, because uh this is gonna come up in in in future episodes because it's even about the the role that I'm playing, that that you guys are the fashion industry insiders. But as I did that night at the first event where where I met you a year and a half ago, while I may have been a bit of a jerk, I was actually bringing my my journalistic sensibility to to the table, which is I hear lots of nice words, right? But to persuade a smart, smart enough but skeptical audience that you had speakers saying, Yes, we're doing this for sustainability and that for a conscious fashion. And I said, it'd be nice if you presented some evidence. What kind concrete, credible, verifiable evidence that you present transparently, right? And so I pushed back gently, I thought, respectfully. But that's that's what one thing that will come up uh throughout the these episodes, and and that's the role I'll happily play here, is as we're talking about various issues, and companies are making claims, or governments are making claims, or individuals, that I'll I'll have those eagle eyes as far as well, are they providing any sort of credible evidence to support their claims or accusations, defenses, that sort of thing. And for all of you to know why this matters, I mean, not only for for those of you who might want media publicity, earned media attention, and how to reach that that standard of attracting, let's say, women's wear daily. Okay, if you want a leading industry publication or mainstream publication, how to present your your your your your your content in an evidence-driven way. But all of us need to prove our words if you're approaching investors, donors, watchdog agencies, journalists, partners, consumers, clients, anyone, we shouldn't recognize that the standard will be very high to persuade a smart but skeptical audience.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

But not only that, it's also about adding the critical thinking. So for any reports that a company may bring out, it's also about really scratching the surface to see, you know, okay, like what is the evidence? Because a lot of companies will bring out glossy reports, but it's really getting into the nitty-gritty of that to really understand how they are reporting it, what are they missing, what are they leaving out in the reports that you know can be very subtle or blatant, and really under the understanding the gaps that are missing.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Okay, so there you go. And and and by the way, this is a podcast that we will be publishing online. And and besides us obviously making a pitch, as all podcasters will do, if you like what you heard and will like what you see, give us a like and that sort of thing. We really would encourage you to ask us questions or even to suggest topics that you might want to want to see us explore from our unique, three-headed perspective, which will become clear to you as as we move along, right? Whether it's sustainability, journalisticslash storytelling, that sort of thing. Okay, conscious fashion. So, any other comments from my colleagues here before we move forward? No, I think we should dive into it. Okay. Okay, so we did a bit of research to see what some of the industry observers had to say about 2025. Here we are now early in the new year 2026. And so we thought, okay, it'd be very timely to take a look back at 2025, the year that was, what were some of the hottest trends? But now also looking at the the year that that's arrived and and in what form those we would expect to see those those issues evolve and and emerge, and other hot button issues that are on the horizon. Okay. So let's begin with sustainability. Sustainability.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

It's a very common, very common, very over well used word over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Well, that's exactly what I was going to uh what I was going to say is that this term, as as you know, it's a buzzword that's come up over and over again. On the one hand, is it overused? Is it too vague and overused? We'll ask my my colleagues what they think about that. But also, of course, entering 2025, there was a certain political, political influence emanating from Washington, D.C. He who shall not be named. No, no, we will name him. Uh, of course, President Trump and the Trump administration, and there was a lot of talk about what he was going to do and actually did do on the first day regarding DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And there was anxiety that he would do something similar to sustainability and ESG, environmental social governance criteria. And so what's what the observers are saying is that word of sustainability's death and demise have been greatly exaggerated. Perhaps the way a better way to describe it is that for sustainability issues, two steps forward, one step back. There's very interesting research out there regarding what global CEOs have to say, that 99%, wait, let me quote this 99% figure comes from an Accenture UN Global Compact survey that 99% of global CEOs still, despite what was happening in Washington, global CEOs around the world still see sustainability as an issue that they were going to continue with their programs aimed at sustainability. Why? We'll explore more of that, why it makes business sense, but it's also what consumers, more and more consumers are demanding. But also at the same time, there was another survey where half of them, let me let me quote this accurately too, where in the same poll, excuse me, same survey, half admitted that they're uncomfortable communicating progress that they're making in sustainability. So keeping their heads down because they don't want to draw attention from anti-sustainability forces out there. Okay. So two steps forward, one step back. So let me ask my my colleagues here, Britta, Peter, what do you think? Is sustainability still relevant? Is the is it is it dying? Well, how do you see it emerging and or or continuing in 2026?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Well, I would say that it's definitely still very relevant because ultimately, if Deloitte is saying that 80% of companies have increased sustainability investments in their company over the last year, I mean, that's just proof because ultimately sustainability isn't just a nice thing to be pretty and tie on a bow and show that yes, we vaguely care about the environment. Ultimately, nowadays, for companies, they have no choice but to look at sustainability and incorporate those initiatives into what they do because now it's just purely risk management. Considering like there is so much overconsumption and overproduction, that where are they getting these resources from? Because the earth does not have an an infinite amount to supply these companies to make their products. So now companies really need to invest in this so to protect what they're doing, what they're making, and how then they're going to be able to produce going forward.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

And you I'm I'm curious, Peter, can you give an example of of such a thing? You said that they have no choice essentially. Can you give it a question?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

Well, for example, like if a company wants to do cotton, if a fashion Brand wants to do cotton, or you know, preferably organic cotton, then the like one cut the amount that is produced in the world today, one company could use that, you know, like PVH, Zara, whomever, like one company could use all of it, so there is not enough to go around. So, whenever you get companies like Patagonia, for example, who are working directly with cotton, are ensuring their supply chain. So they know exactly where their cotton's coming from, they can show traceability within their product, and they know how much that they will be able to get, and then how much they need to additionally put in their supply chain. So they're just protecting their business by going directly to the the farmer.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

And and and just to follow up, because of course uh uh we want to hear from from Brita, but I was thinking of that example too. For example, Uzbek cotton farmers, organic cotton farmers in Uzbekistan, where I've been fortunate enough to to visit and report from that that there are growing numbers, strong uh majorities of of consumers say that they care about how fashion impacts people, planet, and animals, right? So if a company is gonna say that, oh, and and here's how we organically produce our cotton in Uzbekistan, enough of the their consumers will want to see facts, will want to see evidence and not just words, that words are not enough. So then how to prove that you're truly not doing harm to that community, exploiting that community of Uzbek organic cotton farmers, for example, right? To prove that.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Well, the whole thing, uh Uzbekistan, they, you know, within their cotton, it goes into tricky territory because there's a lot of child labor that does that. They have gotten into hot water because of, you know, they make all the villages, including people who aren't farmers, whether it's doctors, ch children, whomever, they shut the schools and make them all go out and pick cotton whenever they need to. So that is an element of slave labor. Of course, then there's the Uyghur population in China, which is, you know, Chinese cotton is like a quarter of the entire global cotton supply. So really understanding, therefore, where your product comes from, knowing the traceability of these is where we can trace it back, then really protects and insulates your brand and company from any potential harm that may come from the traceability of knowing where your cotton is.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Reputational risk. Yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Yeah, so sustainability to me in my world has become such a common term almost that it almost doesn't mean anything anymore from a consumer point of view. It's like, oh yeah, sustainable, everyone says they're sustainable, which leads to greenwashing.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah, who can prove who can prove that they're truly sustainable?

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, yeah. My dog is going nuts, hopefully. We don't disturb it. She wants to be in on the conversation. So what so I was doing a little homework, you know, preparing for this. And what I found really interesting is now there's a there was the term greenwashing, which was stating false claims that your brand is, you know, being green, where they're really just taking advantage of a marketing term and not really having that proven, you know, proven facts to show that they're really doing what they're say they're doing. So now it's the opposite. There's this term green hushing that is now the thing. And so it's the opposite effect where companies are nervous, they're nervous to share what they're doing because they feel like they might get accused of doing something wrong or they're not following regulations. There's this, I, you know, jotted down some notes that I found really interesting was it's perfection or silence mindset. So they're feeling the articles I was reading were saying if the company, a lot of companies, if they don't feel like they have it 100% perfected, then they're going to be accused of, you know, not doing what they're claiming to do. So they should want to be, you want to have that transparency, yet they're scared, you know, that they're not perfect because all these places are not perfect. It's baby steps, right? It's, you know, they might be making a move in their materials, but maybe they're still, you know, shipping from China to Vietnam to, you know, five different places before it gets to the consumer. So now it's a different angle to think of, is this green, green hushing, which I think is really sad. Because I'd rather a company have full transparency and say, hey, okay, we're we've replaced using cotton from this one location from slave labor. So at least now we're using cough cotton from a certified, organic, proven supplier, but yet, you know, we still have all these other steps that we need to achieve. You know, so I feel like if companies have that goal, you know, it's gonna take years for us to get there. It's like steering the Titanic, you know, but at least, at least start heading that direction. And as a consumer, I would much rather know that they're making the effort and they're being fully transparent than for them to say nothing or something false.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

I mean, the only thing with that is it can get very complicated because ultimately, for example, HM, they did take a stand and they had it even on their website because they came out against the forced labor in the Uyghur population. However, then the Chinese government they took issue with that and then basically told their people to not shop at HM stores. And so this became, you know, they started really bashing HM to the point HM then ended up having to back down and took it off their website. So it's it it gets it can get very complicated.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Very complicated. And I think that's what's leading to this green hushing, which is really sad. It's you know, let's celebrate the efforts and the progress we are making, you know, instead of getting reprimanded for, you know, they're taking baby steps, but they're not perfect, you know. But it's still good to know that they're working on something, you know, they're trying. We're all trying our best. And, you know, and like going back to Michael, your point, prove, you know, and show us. So if it is HM, I I found a stat that I can pull up where it came from, but HM was rated, they did a a rating on their their products, and they were one of the top rated places for achieving some of the goals, which really surprised me because I think of them as just big mass market, but they've got a whole sustainability team and they're making the effort. So I feel like we need to celebrate those small improvements along the way just to, I don't know, give some hope, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

See now a guy like me would wonder well, who produced that that survey? You know, was it uh uh HMPR department that said we were a cheating?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

No, they no, what no, what Brett is talking about though is true because it it comes about transparency and they consistently score very high because they are open and they do reports, but again, it's it's what we said at the start, it's bringing your critical thinking into it. They do do a lot of effort, but it's also because they do do a lot of harm. The way that their business model is set up is that their margins are very small, which means they need a lot of volume, which is why they have a lot of stores, and so they need to sell consistently a lot of product to make their profits. But then, of course, that's consuming a lot more, encouraging people to consume more, and then there's a lot of waste at the end because the quality of the product for the price isn't worth reselling, and a lot of the polyester that is used isn't quality polyester to be able to be recycled, which means it all ends up in landfill. So it's it's it's just balancing the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:33

Yeah, yeah. And and by the way, I should have pointed out that here's the the article that uh we we drew the subject matter from fortune and focus on the 2025, the year sustainability didn't die. As I said, we always want to to show some of our sources, but you know, it's also important to keep in mind all three of us are here in the US, but of course, sustainability isn't only going on here, it's not only an issue here. And so the the European Union and others are are are passing new new rules and policies and all that, imposing sustainability. They are ahead of us. That's right. And and more and more Chinese companies will we'll talk about China in a moment. I lived in Beijing for five years, and I know that more and more Chinese companies have sustainability along their the the top of their masthead, their banner on their websites too. So it is becoming much more the norm despite what's happening in the US, any any sort of political pressure, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

And also just to say what No, I was just I was just gonna like go on top of what you were saying, Britta, about like, you know, sustainability being an overused word, that companies are acknowledging that the ones who have also done a lot of work, like Nike, Nike don't even use it anymore. And what theirs is because it's such a huge umbrella that encompasses so many different things from different tiers within people's businesses, that now Nike do move to zero. So they're focusing on their carbon and to therefore, you know, making it relevant to them with the term move, but it's also like what they're really trying to do is get to carbon neutral.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Well, you know what, and and and even for our viewers to to realize that as we were coming up with the name of this podcast and a little subhead, the sub the description of the podcast, we even debated whether to include sustainability among our S's. Because I thought as an insider outsider, mostly outside the industry, I thought, well, it's a good umbrella term that that people can grasp, but the two of you were saying, well, it's so overused that maybe it means nothing and that it always requires a definition, perhaps. It's too vague, that sort of thing. But I'm curious to ask you guys just one more thing before we move on. How how would you explain to to younger folks, the younger generation, why does sustainability matter?

SPEAKER_02 33:11

I think the younger generation has even a more a bigger understanding and a bigger grasp and a bigger concern because they're the ones that are the future, right? And so my daughter, for example, is 24 and sustainability is the top, one of her top priorities, and she's getting her master's degree in sustainability, and it's become more and more common. So I feel hope that they're they're grasping it or striving for it than more than maybe the older generations, you know, because we didn't grow up that way, and it wasn't a thing. Even when I was in the industry, we were mass producing like millions of units of things for mm, Walmarts and targets, and it didn't even occur to me the amount of volume that we were working on, and now it's a whole mindset shift. And I really think the younger generation is gonna be way more on top of it than well, it's not in the in the prime of you know, it wasn't it wasn't even a concern. So I feel very hopeful that the younger generation is they're the ones that are gonna have to take this on, right? We're leaving them the mess.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

So well, the only thing like I totally agree with you, and I think the younger generation is amazing because you know, whenever you get your Greta Thumbergs and the people who are really planting a flag in the grind to be like, we can't do this anymore. But at the same time, there is a thing which is the gap. What people say they do and what they say they believe and what they actually do. And a lot of the times, a lot of the fast fashion of Sheen and Timu are being driven by the younger generation. They're the ones that are buying this, and then they go on, you know, YouTube doing their unboxing videos and and how many outfits that they can do, and they're harsh, how much you can yes, look how much you can get for a hundred dollars. So I think it's again, it comes back to critical thinking about being mindful of it. And ultimately, I think we should really have a I think this is a great topic for a future, you know, episode, because on top of that, I think a lot of the younger generation aren't really aware that if what they do buy from Sheen and Timu really it's it's very harmful. There's a lot of toxic chemicals in there, and because you buy direct and you're not buying it from imported store, they don't have to follow any of those rules. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

And I'm sure we could find some data for you, Michael. Yes, that the the mindset is there and the desire is there, but yet, like Peter is saying, where you spend your dollars is really proving where your values are. You know, you might think it and believe it, but yet you still want that dress for that party, you know, for 25 bucks. So spending those dollars is really, you know, kind of guiding that mentality where, you know, I think they're hoping and they want to strive for that, but yeah, they're spending their dollars in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Right. So yeah. I think we could go on and on about systems.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

We could be a whole episode in a sense.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Of course, we'll revisit this in the future in in various forms. But let's let's move on to our second topic. Speaking of how just to not be so US centric with our with our view of the fashion industry, China and and China's role uh leading the global acceleration in the clean economy. And if if you only watch the US, only paid attention to the US, you'd think clean tech was slowing, right? But globally in the transit globally, the transition has has surged, led by China. And now I know a bit about this because as I mentioned, I lived in Beijing for for five years. I work with some Chinese tech companies in in media relations. I just returned a few weeks ago from the world's largest tech show in in Las Vegas representing a Chinese uh laser tech company in media relations. And of the 4,000 companies there showing their products and services, more than 1,000 were Chinese, and many of them focusing on their various forms of clean technology. And so, and and plus, it's also important to know that while someone like President Trump is is touting the virtues of coal, which is largely pandering to the coal industry donors and voters in coal-producing states, that of course many, many other countries and companies are turning away from such a dirty resource. But but vis-a-vis clean tech and and fashion and China's role that China produces anywhere from 30 to 60 percent of of the the world's clothing and and and textiles, as as as I've learned some of these concrete numbers, they're also producing a significant proportion, some some 20 plus percent of electric vehicles. And so it's important for us to also keep an eye on China as the world's second largest economy and and the engine of the global economy to pay attention to what is happening in China and how it affects the fashion industry. So, Brita, Peter, anything to say about China and its role today?

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Well, yeah, because ultimately the amount I think the numbers that I had seen was from 2022, but like China is of all the global carbon emissions, China is the largest contributor with around 30%, and America, the USA is second with around 15%. So if that was 2022, and now China is really like moving towards clean energy because they were focused a lot on coal, and then you have the US that you know is stopping trying to do clean energy and is moving backwards into coal and oil, then those numbers will really shift. And what I also find interesting is that uh the other developing countries like Pakistan, India, and African countries, where a lot of factories and fashion factories are, particularly as the middle class rose in China, a lot of those factories that are based in China then they opened in you know Cambodia and now African countries because they're chasing Vietnam too. Yeah, yes, because they're chasing cheap labor. So the fact that now the those countries aren't going into solar, they're like skipping over the whole dependence on oil and coal and going straight to solar. So I think America risks being kind of left behind a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Well, just to interject before we hear from Brita, I I hope, we hope that that's only lasts as long as this presidential term lasts and that uh America will return to to a healthier, cleaner path. Not that it to hold it up on a pedestal, of course, right? But but of course, uh, we do see these as retrograde policies dragging us uh to the past. So so Brito, what do you think? Anything to tell about China?

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Well, I'm a fan and I'm always hopeful that we'll bring some manufacturing back to the US, but it's so hard to compete and it's so expensive. So in my ideal world, we would be producing here and not relying on those countries. But since we do rely on those countries, I'm happy to hear that they're implementing a lot of these, you know, new tools and resources so that it is better for the environment. They're, yeah, they're years, light years ahead of us, I think. We're just falling behind. And so while everything is being so produced in all of those other countries, you know, it's I'm happy that they're able to do that and reduce the environmental footprint. But I I'm concerned about, yes, the US just being so far behind. And by the time we do get a new administration, like we're gonna have so much catching up to do. And yeah, so it's it's I don't know. I don't know how we're gonna achieve that. It's gonna take years to get that. And yeah, like you were talking about the coal-producing states, you know, for them it's providing employment, but at the same time, it's just contributing to the the pollution and the fossil fuels. And as my daughter would always remind us, remind me, we only have so many years. You know, we have 30 years of left of good soil or of this or that, you know, and it it's coming up so fast, all of this harm, it's within our lifetime, you know. So, and now we're losing more years because we're just not addressing it.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Well, not only that, there is a finite amount of oil in the planet, and ultimately, you know, America, that's the reason they're like running out, and that's why they're going into fracking, and then going into Venezuela, because Venezuela is an untapped resource. So, even regardless, like as this then exacerbates the amount, it'll be interesting how that affects things.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, I mean, we don't want to get too political, of course, but but that's no no, but it but it's interesting because it's all interconnected.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

So, for example, the other thing I would also bring up with China, which I find interesting, is that like in January, like big designers are now working there. And whereas beforehand, so it was interesting. Like, I had a friend from whenever I was in Milan who worked at Prada, and he was developing this, uh he was working with these Chinese companies, and instead of made in China, it was made for China, and so instead of China just being the factory that made everyone else's products, they were really trying to be insular and making things for themselves. I even went over because you know, Western designers have been working there for a while, and I went also to potentially get a job there, and ultimately, you know, I decided against it. But I do have friends from those days who did do that, and so now you're seeing big names like Kim Jones, who was working at Louis Vuitton, and Fandy. And Chris Van Ash, who was doing Dior menswear, like they are now heading these design houses in China. So China's no longer this, you know, factory making everyone else's. They're now creating product that they're going to export and literally compete with the luxury brands that are European or American that already exist. So even how we frame and think of China will eventually have to change because they're they have moved on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Well, you're right. Speaking of that, you know, that one of the the old stereotypes, I speak as someone who having lived there and and and and worked with many Chinese, and I was also a visiting professor of international journalism in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong. So I'm very fond of the Chinese. For example, that you might receive over the holidays that would break after one, two, three usages. That stereotype of poor quality. But in fact, now, as many of you realize, that China is on the cutting edge of all forms of technology and AI. China is also the world's largest consumer market, the world's largest exporter. And they're just extremely savvy and sophisticated about how to sell products. As you see with Sheen, with Timu, that sort of thing, despite the controversies, right, that some will find those prices and a range of products irresistible. So it it is important to understand more about uh about the Chinese. And at some point, we'll we'll we'll have a uh a Chinese guest who can help explain. I have a couple uh colleagues in mind who can shed some light, bring some insights regarding the Chinese markets and Chinese plans for the future. Anything else on this, colleagues?

SPEAKER_02 46:05

I think it would be great to have some future guests so we can all get a better understanding of the landscape of it, because it's it's such a big topic and it's a whole shift in the global market. So it'll be something we could really dive into a lot deeper, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:20

Because as you guys alluded to, it's not just what China's doing, but also how the Western world is responding to it, the fashion industry and all of that, right? So China is a real key player in the fashion industry in 2025 and now in 2026 as well. So let's move on to our third topic, which is AI. Everyone's talking about AI, but specifically, you know, they're talking about so many of the pros, so many of the cons. Let's focus on what it's doing to the fashion industry. I mean, one thing I'm curious about, I find very interesting, is the issue of creativity and how it's infusing fashion design and fashion designers, some of whom come up with brilliant ideas. But as we we even discussed at a recent fashion show where we all met a few days ago, that it's not old-fashioned working what on a uh on a on a model or or pinning. How do you describe it, Peter, the other day?

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Like draping on a mannequin.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Draping. Draping on a mannequin. Okay, you guys know the terminology. It's not quite that, but feeding information, your creative ideas, and allowing AI to take the ball and run with it, I guess, right? So I'm wondering if it should even lead to a new specialized occupation, not just fashion designer, but AI, fashion designer to give credit to. Yes, we're using the machinery versus the the draping of the mannequin, the old school old school way of doing it. What do you guys think of that? Since this is more specifically how it's affecting your industry.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

You want me to jump in first, Peter?

SPEAKER_00 47:56

You you go for it.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

A lot more. Not just this could be this will be future episodes as well, because we could really dive into this. When we were first talking about this as one of our topics, I think we described it as the good, the bad, the ugly.

SPEAKER_03 48:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

So with AI, there's the good, there's the bad, there's the ugly.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah, let's hear some examples from the front lines.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah, yeah. As a designer myself, I love the new tools. It is so much fun to play with. It's so much fun to be able to create that quickly. You know, I went to FIT. We learned draping. We were in the lab for hours, you know, pinning, sewing, stitching, steaming, like all those things, making patterns flat, you know, by hand, every adjustment for the pattern. You make a paper pattern, you cut it out, you try it on, you make fit revisions. You go back, you take your paper pattern, you add a quarter inch here, quarter, like you could go, it could go on and on, many iterations. Now you have tools, browse wear and cloth, where you can put it on an avatar. You can build your avatar in the exact measurements you want. If you're doing children's, if you're doing a brand that's for tall people plus size, whatever you want to call it, you can build that avatar and do all of the patterning digitally. Even the seam placement, you can visualize if you want princess seams or darts or what have you. So the amount of iterations that you're saving and keeping in mind, every iteration is a cost, right? Probably being made in China if you're at a big company. So you're shipping things back and forth, you're making samples over and over again, using fabric over and over again. All of those samples that don't fit are garbage. So, in the with the point of view of development, it's incredibly sustainable and making a big difference in that waste and time. So I would say that's that's a really positive thing that you're gonna get out of AI. Plus, you could do, you know, if you have a meeting with a buyer, you can come up with a 10 colors to show them through AI generated examples and they look like they look like real humans, like right? You can't even hardly tell which one's AI, which one's human. So you can show potentially show a buyer all the variations of one style without having to actually make every single one, dye the fabric and all those things. I could go on and on about that, but there's so many positive things that are coming from the tools and the AI that we have that is, you know, people are working in now. Yeah, speaking with But you know, then you've got the whole opposite side where there's, you know, how do you know it's real? How do you know the who's the person behind it? Is there really a designer behind it, or is it all completely AI generated? Is it inclusive? Is it I mean, there's so many questions. So I yeah, it's it's really looking at both sides and kind of finding that balance again of how you use it, how you use it properly, how you use it to improve your process for less waste and achieving more sustainability. Um, you just have to re-be, I think we have to be really careful on what we put out there and being honest about it and transparent and not using it to trick the consumer, but being open about what was created with AI, perhaps. And I don't know, Peter, I could go on and on. What what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 51:38

To interject, I hope I didn't distract you, but but there's this article, for example, we were referring to as well. No, the AI models replacing fashion models and business models, right? From from Forbes. But go ahead, Peter, please continue.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

I mean, just as Britta was saying, I mean, Clow and because I do, I agree with you. I think that it can save a lot of time and resources and fabric and things like that. That, you know, it it just means if you have an avatar and you want the collar longer and things like that, it immediately automatically does it on the pattern, and you can print the pattern out. But the way I would see that more is that's like a software tool. Whereas I think AI can get, I think where companies can use it is to predict maybe where what consumers are going to buy, which means that then they don't have to overbuy, and hopefully then the overproduction can be really lessened, which will help a company to therefore not have to pay more, that reduces waste, things like that. I think because there's so much clothes is just sent to landfill that haven't even been worn. So it can definitely, I think, be useful for that. The example that you just showed, Michael, is is like really scary. But and I think companies need to be careful because I understand trying to like save money that you know advertising campaigns can be expensive, but to you to like I feel that women in particular who you know in any magazine who are held up to models and fashion models and that can feel bad about themselves as it is, and now they're being compared with people that don't even exist. Like, how are you meant to keep up with that? And just as an example then of this, Coca-Cola, for example, got really a lot of criticism and pushback for their Christmas 2025 campaign because people felt it was soulless and because it was all done by AI. Whereas Apple, they got totally praised for the crafting that they had done. It was all like hand done, their new marketing thing, their new logo for Apple TV and things like that. That was all done, and they released then the visuals of that. So I think it it will show that there will be a move towards handmade, crafted, you know, that to show because I was even shocked. I don't know if you saw this, Britta, but there was during the couture shows, one of the couture people designers, like it was all on AI. Like, so you couldn't actually the whole point of of couture is you know, the craft, the the man-made, the hours, the hand stitched, and then somebody's just doing this. It it just it felt very cheap, lazy, and uncreative. Especially like if a designer can't even design something and is asking a computer to do it for them, then then what do we need you for? You know what I mean? Like you so you're then your name is just on the back label, that's it. All right.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Should there be a new title that you are an AI fashion designer, not a fashion designer?

SPEAKER_00 54:54

And I would make designer out of it. They're not a designer. You can be an it's more like a tech yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Like are you figuring out are you figuring out the you know, the proper terminology and code to make it do what you're trying to achieve? It's it's like creating animation, you know, it's a different thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Yeah, because the people who are talented are the ones that make the garment. A person who can just print, like press print on a printer and then hand it to the actual artisans who's gonna make it, they're the ones that then have the talent, not the person who press prints. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

We gotta revisit this issue because it's it gets people fired up. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Yeah. And I I really wonder on the education side of things, you know, what are if I were to be a design fashion design student today.

SPEAKER_01 55:49

Or professor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

Yeah, what what do I need to learn? Am I just gonna learn computer skills and not learn draping and pattern making? Is it all gonna be how to make AI? Like, like I don't know what they're you know. I've been asking a lot of educators that I do work with, you know, what are the students having to learn? Because when they enter the job market, are they gonna be expected to know how to use all these tools? And so it's a completely different landscape, and it'll be interesting to see.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

It's the same as fast, you know, fast food, then there's slow food, like farm to table, and you know, there's fast fashion and there will be slow fashion. And I agree with you, like I don't know what students will have to learn, but ultimately there will have to be a product there at the end of it for someone to actually wear. Like people, you can do whatever you want in your portfolio, but if you don't know how to achieve it, make it fix it whenever it comes back and it doesn't fit well, like then you know, like you're not you're not going to be really maximizing the capabilities of what the job needs or entails.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

And that's great.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Sorry, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

I was gonna say there's great tools for a fashion designer to use to support their work, but don't lose that craft. Like we can't lose that that craft of actually being the creativity behind it, the construction, you know, that should all come from the designer. And if it is fully AI created fashion, that to me is a completely different role. But use the tools that support your work and make it more efficient and sustainable. But yeah, there's a a separation between the two for sure.

SPEAKER_00 57:39

I mean you I wonder if it'll come become soulless. You know, the way people work were you know what I mean? Like you can see like creativity, and if as people were criticizing the Coca-Cola campaign, you know, the you can kind of tell, I feel.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

Yeah, it's almost like your your Italian mother that's putting the the love behind that meal, you know, versus fast food. It's you know, are they putting the love and the soul uh into what they're creating, or is it yeah, AI generated, mass-produced, sent out to big box brands, and there's a big difference between the two. It also yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Well, I was just gonna say what what you just said, Brittes goes to the heart of AI itself with the the handcrafted versus asking a machine to do it, it affects so many industries, right? I mean, uh my industry, journalism and and and and storytelling and and and all that, how many people are now relying on Chat GPT to do the writing for them, to do the research for them and all that. So many industries are are impacted by this, right? But Peter Wolverine.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

Yeah, that made me think of think of another point to all this is I use AI almost daily. You know, it's helped me so much in my work, in my research, and perplexity and chat GPT, and I love Midjourney and some of these other tools. And speaking to my daughter again, who is now studying sustainability, she's yelling at me because of the energy and water usage that it takes to generate the AI responses. So that again, like that when I first started using it, it hadn't even occurred to me like how is it generating that? And the amount of water it using and electricity and gener, you know, all of that is kind of you don't really you don't see that. So you don't even realize. So, in a way, you're contributing to more environmental harm, perhaps, by using these big oh, but I will throw in, I don't have data. I can't prove this, Michael, but I did go to Textworld a week and a half ago, and there was a talk, a panel talk about AI, and I forget the gentleman's name, and I'd have to maybe I can look it up and we can put it in the show notes. But he was saying, because somebody asked that exact question, how much energy are we using to for all of these tools? And his response was that in the future, it's all gonna be powered by light. So he was kind of like, don't worry about it, because in a few years it's gonna be generated, the power is gonna come from light. And he he wasn't able to expand because it was a short panel, but I thought, well, that's really interest interesting. And I did Google it. I think I might have even used perplexity to say, is that gonna be true? And there it's it didn't have a solid, firm answer. So we'll have to wait and see again what the future is holds for that, because that's at the moment burning up a ton of resources.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

But yeah, and so many, so many companies, fashion companies, are all jumping on that bandwagon, you know, to give an experience for their consumer. And if it is one of those that it's like, okay, you know, again, it could in theory be helpful if it's one of those that a person can try on an outfit and see what it looks like on them before they even purchase it or you know, sand for it. But like if if all of these companies had have jumped on green sustainability initiatives the way they're jumping on AI, because I think it it just blows my mind that chat open AI that does ChatGPT doesn't make any money. It's the same as and they're looking for I think another 40 to 100 billion dollars of investment to try and get themselves there. I think they make uh the last I read, I think they made like four billion dollars last year, but ended up spending five billion. And I think Microsoft owns 20% of them, so whatever comes in automatically quickly has to go out to pay a lot of their bills. So they're doing that Amazon thing where it's like grow and grow and grow and become, you know, the people can't live without it to the point that, and then hopefully they'll make money. So there could be a huge big AI bubble that could burst in the future. Ah, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Huh. Well, again, another topic that that that we can explore uh uh in depth because there's so many angles. I mean, like you even said, talking about about jobs, jobs being lost, that sort of thing within the industry and and losing skills, losing crafts is is really a fascinating topic. I'm happy to hear how your daughter keeps you grounded.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

She she does that generation.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah, she keeps you tapped into so many trends.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:42

And everything she tells me, I'm like, really? I had no idea. And so she's you know, she's studying this every day. She's some of the best teachers in that are in that world. And so it's really interesting to hear what she's learning and what they're teaching at, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

And and let's point out that that we each have have friends and connections to Parsons School of Design, Fashion Institute of Technology. At some point, we will invite one of those professors onto the uh onto the program to to ask about what they're teaching, what they see the trends are in fashion design education and and how they're doing what they're doing, what the students are demanding, what they see as as a few the future for their students, that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:28

Well, Breta, I also just would command your daughter because the one of the things, because Harvard did a sustainable fashion course, and I was the TA for that for a few years, grading, having to grid the essays and stuff that were put in, and you could tell which ones were written by Chat GPT, as opposed to the ones where people researched it. But the thing that I was more concerned of, again, it goes back to critical thinking, because if people are just going to switch the brain off and believe what ChatGPT tells them, whenever Chat GPT is just scouring the internet and coming back and saying these are the results I've found, whenever so many people have come out and said that ChatGPT hallucinates, that it can it can have one conclusion from the article, which was not actually written in the article. And if it is scouring all of the internet, well, anyone could write anything. So it's coming back to you saying these as facts, whenever no one will go back and look at the where Chat GPT got these um information from to check if it's accurate. So if people are going to switch their brain off and really not check, that's again and lose critical thinking. That's the part that would really concern me going forward. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

You know what? Uh on a personal note, I think that while it's important that we have um uh the those those checks to to identify what's been AI generated or Chad GPT generated, I see there's a need for the flip side, which is to earn a check if I write something from scratch, okay. Like we should we deserve credit that no AI was used in the creation of this product. It's yeah, like that point like non-GMO products. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Like non-GMO products, you know, food products.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

Yeah, they get that stamp, they should create a stamp. You get to put it on your article.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

This is human it could create a certain desire, which is I want that stamp is I want to prove that I'm using my hands to create this. I deserve that credit in this day and age.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

I feel like that's really sad for writers and journalists because the years that you put into building a writing career, yeah, and now anyone can just whip up a yeah, a novel if you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:50

You could just graphic designers or whatever or fashion designers.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:55

Yeah, like setting a prompt and make me address in this color. What?

unknown 1:05:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

There was a Chinese company. I don't need to name the name at this point, but a Chinese company I I found at in Las Vegas at the the CES, the that world's largest tech show, you know, where you can feed a script into the software and they will create a film based on the script. Okay. It's getting to that point. It's not just, hey, can you create a PowerPoint for me? Can you create a thumbnail for my video? But can you create a movie for me based on this information? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

It's crazy. And it's happened so fast. I feel like it was overnight. Yeah. You know, one day my husband was like, Oh, have you heard of Chat GPT? And he told me about it, and I was like, ah, and then, you know, a week later, I'm playing with it and I'm like, this is amazing. And then and it's overnight. It's it's so fast. So what's gonna what's it gonna look like in a year from now, two years from you know, five years from now? Well be completely different again.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

So well, let's move on to our fourth topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Yeah, what happened to our our 60-minute podcast? Well, yeah, you know, these are good topics that deserve a lot of attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

So we had a hunch that that some of these that we would go over. That we wouldn't have a shortage of things to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:19

Now we're confronting the reality. For our viewers, once again, this is this is an experiment, you know, get uh uh please be forgiving. We're gonna iron out some of the kinks, and we expect that by episode two, we'll be a smooth running operation.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Okay, where we know I'll say this is part of the reason we're doing the podcast, is because the three of us started working together, and every time we had a call, we had so such good conversations that we just kept thinking, oh, we this is where we want to we want to share. We want to bring people into the conversation because we like you said, we all come from different points of view and different experiences. So it's yeah, it's just there's so much, so much we can discuss and share.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

So we also know that many people are suffering from sleeplessness and insomnia. This is our contribution.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

I hope we're not putting people to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

Maybe just a little nap.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

Okay. Our fourth, our fourth topic, supply chains. Okay. There's the role and reputation of supply chains, which on the one hand were rocked by scandals, on the other hand, by US imposed tariffs over the past year. Okay. And so one of the themes has been the uncertainty and how it's affected supply chains over the past year. So I'm wondering how the two of you see supply chains being affected over the past year and what you anticipate for the year to come.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

Well, I mean, it was very because of the tariffs, a lot of companies had to very quickly pivot because if China was being, you know, gonna have 25% tariffs, then they would go to Cambodia or Vietnam that maybe only had 10%. And then that left a lot of factories in China or countries that they moved really high and dry, that they didn't and you know, they're losing a huge chunk of their business. If they had invested into sustainability initiatives and, you know, at the behest of these brands, and then they suddenly pull the rug out from under them and saying, Yeah, we're going somewhere else. So they, you know, they have a workforce that they need to pay and all the rest of it. So it it wasn't that yeah, it was the and ultimately all of this gets paid the the consumer pays for it. Like any additional cost, they just the company adds it at the top, and the consumer pays for it at the end. It is not the companies or the government of that country.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:56

And what what would you like to add to that, Brita?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

Yeah, it's it's so confusing, I think. And from what I've heard inside my network, is that the the makers, the designers, the brands, they don't know what to do because it changes from one week to the next. So they start shifting and moving things around, and then it's like, oh no, wait a second. Uh we'll we'll just put it on pause for you know a month. And it's like, I don't know how anyone's getting any anything done efficiently because it's just, I mean, maybe it's more set now. I don't know the latest, you know, facts on where we stand with different countries, but it's just, I feel like it's just a mess. Like, how are you supposed to know what to do with your business, with your pricing? Everything's up in the air every day changing. And there was one brand I heard from at Texworld. It was one of the panelists again, and they produce in Asia, and they were saying they absolutely are not changing their pricing. So they have kept their prices as they were before, and they're just taking a hit, they're taking a cut. But that was their priority, which I thought was really admirable because I'm sure their profit margin was hugely shrunk, but yet they they didn't want to give up their manufacturing. They had years of partnership, you you build up years of partnerships with these makers, you know, unless you're a brand new company, you've maybe been using that factory five, 10, 20 years, who knows? And then all of a sudden you're just gonna say, sorry, you no longer get our production because we can't afford it. And all those people are, you know, cut back on jobs, on employment, on you know, paychecks for these people that have relied on it for years, and it's just a sad situation. It's such it's a butterfly effect, domino effect, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:49

So because every every product, like I've been in those meetings where you, you know, you have the the factory that's making it, and then like the production will be arguing over the penny, over the half penny. Because if they're ordering like tens of thousands of this product, that will add up. And so you're really talking about pennies and nitpicking. So if they're going to suddenly add 25% tariffs to things, it really does have that domino effect that you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, well, Peter, let me ask you about what role reputational risk plays as a motivator for change. For example, the uh the Italian uh the scandal with Loro Piana.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:31

I mean, listen, that that is also huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

How would you summarize it first of all for our for our audience to summarize?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:39

Well, because the Loro Piano, whenever it came out, for example, that they had these artisans in Peru in the highlands that do the cunha, which is like this ultimately super soft, softer than cashmere, but it also costs a fortune. And they were being paid nothing. And Loro Piana is then selling these things for thousands of dollars for a sweater. So I think it really shifts the foundation of what people believe luxury is, because you go in believing that luxury isn't fast fashion and that it isn't a Zara or a Sheen or a Timu that you believe, like, oh, it's the craft because that's the image that is sold to you. And then you find out actually there is sweatshops as well. So this was a bigger scandal because there was like 19 brands that now the Italian government is looking into for exploitative labor practices, and you're going from Yves Saint Laurent to Lauro Piana to Todd's to there's like Alexander McQueen was even one of them, which those are some of those are owned by LVMH, so it goes to the bigger thing of again people buying into the the idea of made in Italy, but then you find out that actually made in Italy doesn't mean say me by Italians. And I I was in Milan around the 2000s whenever everything started being shifting towards China, and even big companies like you know Armani and Versace and stuff, they were getting things made there for their lower label, the lower brands, and then trying to keep the higher brands like the main lines done in Italy. But then the Italian government, like they had the crisis of like, okay, so what does made in Italy mean? And at the time they had they came up with the idea as long as three things was done in Italy, you can call it made in Italy. So that means the majority could be made in China, and then it comes back and it's like finished off, or the label soon on, or maybe the buttons, or things like that. But one of the things that I find really interesting, and I didn't even know this in living there, is that one of the biggest Chinese communities in the world outside of China is actually in Bologna. So they have factories there that again, just because it's made in Italy, don't mean say it's made by Italians, and so all of these like Chinese workers are working in these factories, they just happen to be in Italy. So if people don't believe in what luxury is, it just puts a big question, then what am I buying? You know, you think you're buying luxury and you think you're buying craft, but if you find out whenever the curtain is pulled back that it's the same sweatshop as you know, other brands, fast fashion brands are being accused of, then what's really the difference?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

You know what? Uh Brito, do you have anything to add to that? Because that's a nice segue to our next topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

But go ahead, we're yeah, I it made me think of a documentary I saw on Brandy Melville. And it was called Brandy Hellville, and that brand was started in Italy. I believe the founder, uh the co-founders, whatever, are are Italian, but it was exactly what you were saying, Peter, is it's made in Italy, but it it's still a like a Chinese populated factory that they were using, you know, at very cheap prices, cheap, cheap materials, you know. And as a customer, you go into the store and all the labels made in Italy. So you don't you don't know. And and that leads me to another thing that it's digital passports. You know, there's this block the blockchain and the digital passports that are becoming more and more common. I I'm I couldn't quote anyone on this, but I I believe that in Europe it's becoming a requirement, or maybe it already is a requirement in some places where you're following the entire process lifecycle of a garment and every step where it's made, where it's coming from, all of that. So again, kind of being optimistic about the future, you know, getting digital passports into products. I don't know if it'll be re required here. We'll have to wait and see. But having that option for the consumer, if they were to scan a garment, a QR code on a garment, they could see, okay, the cotton came from Peru. It was sewn here, it was stitched here, and then it traveled here. So I think I would be interested in learning that. I'm not sure we'll have to see what the consumer, if they actually would, you know, scan the QR code and really read the story and the the traveling that that garment has gone through to get into their hands. But again, a thing coming up in the future that will be really interesting to explore further.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:41

Well, just to go on top of that, yes, it's meant to be required in Europe, I think it's by 2028. And also, and also on on top of that, that since we're also talking about solutions, the irony here is that because Prada is one of the other Italian companies that are being investigated, and Prada, well, it was started by LVMH, but Prada, LVMH, they there's a thing that they kept brought out, which is about blockchain for digital passports called Aura. And they then, and so Richmond is also that was another partner, and now uh OTB, which is by Rennie Russo, his company, they're also now part of the consortium. And so the whole point of that is that it's digital passports. So I find it a little ironic that these companies have the solution that they develop themselves, and it's also a non-profit, by the way, or as a nonprofit, because what they're trying to do, it it's trying to be inclusive so that everyone and any brand can then use the technology within it to, you know, so that they it can be traceable and you can see where it was made and who made it and things like that. So I find it just a little bit ironic that they're not using their own product.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:02

That is interesting. I like hearing that they're nonprofit, though. Then it it speaks to me as their values are in place and they're doing it for, they're not doing this for profit, they're doing it to to make it accessible for people. So that's good to hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:19

Well, moving on from speaking of uh luxury, luxury retail, our fifth topic, our fifth trend was uh actually pinned to pegged to uh uh what happened to to SACS, SACS Global. I want to to show you, share the uh the screen to show you this article from from Forbes, Sachs bankruptcy, which happened just a few weeks ago, rings alarm bells for luxury retail. And and just for for those of you unfamiliar, that that Sachs declared bankruptcy, which they say is related to the the purchase of Neiman Marcus, right? That the burden by over 2.5 billion in debt, largely stemming from his 2024 acquisition. And here's a key line here. Why does this matter? Big picture underscores a broader seismic shift in luxury retail, the decline of the multi-brand department store model amid soaring e-commerce and economic pressures. So that's what I wanted to ask my my colleagues here. Is what why does this matter? How do will this affect other brands, even shopping culture itself? What do you two think?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:42

Well, I would say definitely, yes. I mean, what's really interesting is that these multi-brand retailers, like Saks is another one, that means also Neiman Marcus will be going down. It happened to Barney's, and it's even happening on the online retailers. You know, there's Essence, there was Matches, Farfetch, you know, like a lot of them are really struggling. And the sad part is that the smaller brands, like a lot of the bigger brands, use it a lot because SACS, I think Chanel is the one that's owned the most, but there's Gucci and all the rest of it beyond that. But then that was the platform for smaller brands to have be validated for our consumers to go and see these small brands, you know. And the annoying thing with SACS is all of these small brands really live hand to mouth. They need the money from the orders so that they can pay for and buy the fabrics to make the next order. And so because they weren't getting paid, a lot of them then were struggling. So if they don't have this revenue stream, like it just then puts a lot of pressure on only direct to consumer for you know on their website, and there's so much noise on the website, how do they break through? At least a consumer can go and peruse and have a look in a department store. But if if multi-brand department stores are dying, how how is any like smaller brand or designer going to break through and reach a larger audience? 100%.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:18

Yeah. As a student, when I was at FIT, one of my favorite things to do would be to go shop at those stores. Like Henry Bendel's used to be one of my favorites, and Barney's. And you could you would see the big brands, the big labels, but you would see those designers, emerging brands. You know, you I wouldn't know their name, but you could tell from the the rolling rack and the merchandise that he had. It was, you know, it was a special brand. It was small batch, it was maybe an independent designer. And that, like you said, it gave them the platform to, and how exciting as a designer to be in the mix of a store like that. You know, that's what's gonna get your name out there. And so that that is really sad. And I do like the idea of sort of the mom and shop, mom and pop shop boutique retail space where maybe that will drive business to them. But it's it's again, it's like a consumer shift, mind shift, I guess, because you know, you got a wedding on Saturday, you need a you need a party dress, cocktail dress, you just go to Amazon or wherever and you can get it overnighted, you know. So shifting that thinking as a consumer, you know, go to your local boutique, find that local designer and go and shop there. And and you get the experience too. Those big department stores, you know, maybe if you're in the luxury market and you can shop and you can get the service at those kind of stores, you know, they bring you dresses to the fitting room, they know your measurements, they know your size. But if you're not in that space, how do you get that experience? And so the smaller shops, you can go in and they could start to know you and understand your your style and your taste and and getting that kind of service and experience, I think is I hope it's coming back, you know, and I hope that can support those smaller stores. But yeah, I'll have to wait and see and how that, yeah. Are they gonna disappear completely, these big department store platforms?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:28

I mean, it's it's just it seems so weird because it it then it's like there's already these huge monopolies happening within fashion of LVMH or caring, you know, buying up all of these brands. But if you're if you don't even have the space to grow, like I would say Alexander McQueen was probably the last house that was, you know, able to be built. And even he only really got that far because then like Gucci bought half of it, you know, and so therefore, with that cash injection, then they were really able to explore the vision of what he wanted to do with their own stores and you know, and expand the products and the licensing and things like that. So you really it's the chicken and the egg, and I worry that it's just it's just gonna kill a whole level of creativity. I mean, talking about students coming out, if you wanted to do your own brand rather than go and work for someone else, like where where do you start? Like it's just it used to be there were obvious steps, you know, get into a showroom, the showroom then would show to the buyers, the buyers then will put you in these various stores. But if that isn't an avenue anymore, uh it's it it's it's a bit bleak if all that creativity is going to go away and it's just gonna be about commercial sailing and what you know they believe will sale.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:49

Unfortunately, yeah, it's influencers, social media. You know, I hear so much like a designer getting advice that they should build their following first, you know, build up an audience and you know, get all these followers and then start, which I guess in a sense, you know, you start asking them what they want and what you're gonna produce based on their feedback. But yeah, how do you compete with that? And not everyone wants to be on social media to run a design brand or to run a business as a designer.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

You know, social media takes so much time, it's it's a full-time yeah. And being a designer takes so much as it is, and so much resources that really, if you're devoting your whole time down social media for you know, people just to be, oh, that's cute, that's not, or worse, is opening yourself to getting ripped off, you know what I mean? So many of these like small up-and-coming brands also are battling with Amazon or all of these like large companies, then just going in and going, oh, that was a good seller, let's copy that. So it's it it's it's very difficult, it's a very difficult landscape. And moreover, the thing that I also thought was interesting in that article, Michael, was that they're talking then that there is no aspiration, they're getting rid of the aspirational shopper. You know, if you're getting Chanel that has the exact same bag and they're just gonna up the price by$1,000, so now it's$10,000 for a handbag, that that that's who they're gonna then focus on. If there isn't going to be these multi-brand department stores where people could go in and browse, and there's different levels, there's like high-end, mid-end, you know, you have your different levels of brands, then they're just gonna do away with it and then just focus on the top 1% who are luxury customers. And so, where does that leave everyone else? Well, how do you think people should how do you think brands as come from a communication perspective? How what do you advise either small brands to Break through the the noise or for these bigger brands to really help communicate?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:07

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:08

Well, it's a great question for a future topic for sure, because I as I was listening to you, I was thinking, well, this should should be an episode for sure, which is how to build a startup, right? How to break through and to invite someone on who can who has the experience of of having broken through and what their their best advice would be. I mean, if we're talking about in the in the fashion space from a communications perspective, thinking through short-term, long-term objectives, what exactly you're trying to communicate, what's your core message, what's your brand story? Storytelling. Storytelling, how to build up that content. I mean, researching where your opportunities are, your comparative advantage, your value added, and how to prove that with your words, with supported by evidence, right? From a communication standpoint, and how to bring that to light. So, but maybe at this point we should move on to our sixth topic, our sixth and final topic.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:11

And final. Sixth and final with our we could go, we could talk for hours and make several episodes. So we'll have a lot of good, good juicy content for future.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:22

And so our our our final topic for for this episode is the materials that we use, regenerative, especially materials that we use in in fashion. And even we've talked a lot about sustainability, but is regenerative, the term regenerative, is that the new sustainability? Looking at the materials we use from the seed, from the soil, from the farm, that 2025 saw growing investment in regenerative agriculture for fibers, with brands backing farms that improve soil health and long-term material resil resilience. So looking at is regenerative uh a new the the new sustainability? And here's an article that that we looked at specifically, just to share with you. If you can see, can you see it fully on your end, guys?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:18

And just reading down key drivers of sustainable fashion, here I found this to be a key paragraph here. Fashion businesses must struggle to adapt to the current industry trends by incorporating innovative materials and circular economy solutions that truly embody eco-friendly fashion. On the other hand, if anything is encouraging about the process, it's a percentage of consumers willing to pay for sustainable products, presumably including Britta's daughter, right? But anyway, um what's what what do you think about regenerative as a new sustainability in 2026?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:57

Well, it's new terminology, probably for most consumers. So it's almost, is it, you know, just switching over from the term sustainability. Now the new trend word is regenerative. But in my mind, it's that closed loop system. So we could be using sustainable materials, but are we still are we thinking about the entire circularity process and closing the loop? So in my mind, that's seed, what did we call it? Cradle to grave, you know, starting from the birth of the the seed, you know, whether it's a sheep or whatever, wherever the fiber is coming from, to how is it ending its life? Is it going into a landfill or can it go into the soil and be regenerated into something else? So my perception of it is thinking in a more complete circle rather than just one or two elements of being the there, you know, a couple sustainable elements are included, but what about all the other steps and thinking about end of life? And from a creative standpoint, I would love the challenge of starting with the end in mind. Kind of reverse, reverse engineering, right? You think about how is that t-shirt gonna end its life and what can I do to work backwards to make sure all the steps that precede it, precede it, you know, are done properly, that it can have that regenerative quality at the end. And Peter, you had mentioned more from a farm and soil point of view, which I also found really interesting because I was thinking of it as kind of this closed loop system that I just described, but it's really about the soil and and you know how that whole process works.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

Yeah, yeah, because the like uh what you're talking is like the circular economy, which is it's true, like and and it is feasible. Like CNA in Europe, they did these five$15 t-shirt or 15 uh euro t-shirt that they offered in multiple colors, and so they started at the back, and it was that it was organic cotton, that it was organic dyes, the thread were organic, the labels in the inside were organic, so that if it is ends up in a landfill, it will do the soil no harm. And they even then have various denim and stuff, but it was a success, and they do then now have various denim ones. But people like brands should look at the circular economy definitely to see how they can implement it, because it will reduce waste, reduce toxicity, toxicity, and but the regenerative part, because I know it's it is a big trend that it's happening also in fashion. Again, like wool is the perfect one because what you were talking about, because you shear a sheep, the sheep's still alive, and it will produce then wool then the following year. But it also then goes into like food, and normally, normally, just to give a brief what regenerative is is so that rather than plowing up the soil, you leave the soil where it is. If you have a field, you divide it into four, you put your animals in one quadrant, and then move them to the next, and the next, and then the next, so that by the time you get to the first one, the grass will have grown again, so that then they can eat that. Or if you're doing it for you know crops that you're not necessarily tilling the soil, or that you're supplementing it with a different crop in between, so that that will give nutrients to the soil, so that it's always about soil health, because actually, whenever you till the soil, you're actually releasing a lot of carbon. So, so it's an interesting topic, and I I love the fact that it's also coming into the the fashion world.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:56

You also mentioned, by the way, that you went, I'm showing this photo, you sent me this photo of an event you went to regarding all these regenerative products or regenerative needs.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:08

These are all regenerative products from went to this event, and that also it, as I said, it did talk about fashion because the representative from Eileen Fisher and stuff was there. But these were then examples of all products that they use, which is regenerative grown greens, they make wine, but it is definitely better for the soil, for the environment, and ultimately longevity for the product.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:32

Well, this is definitely a topic we should explore in the future as well, with someone on the ground, on the front lines of uh uh regenerative fashion and farming and that sort of thing. Any any final words about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:49

There is so much to dive into in this space.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:52

So as we wrap up this maiden voyage, our our first episode, I feel very fortunate to have a ringside seat uh uh next to you two as experts. And just just to mention to our viewers, again, you know, we're we're trying to provide some evidence and and uh to support anything that we say. But keep in mind that all these claims that you hear from companies, even from us, you should always do your homework and try to confirm these things from from from credible, reliable sources as well, to to quote your own reliable sources and hopefully they present their their information transparently and verifiably.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:36

Yeah. Anything we refer to, we could put in the show notes too. We can put the links to the articles that you pulled up, Michael, and have those references available.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:45

And and we shall. Those will be my my final words, but anything from either of you that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:50

Yes, well, for for us, I think ultimately what we're asking then of the listener, we're going to end each episode with a call to action. And so we can go through each one and then just see what we would like, whether it's just to bring some attention to some things that we talked about or just to inform the listener of things that they could do to sort of help things move forward. So, Britta, what's what do you what would your call to action be?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:21

My call to action today. I think it would go back to what Michael is saying is do your research. You know, even if you're just you're a shopper and you're looking for an outfit for your next event, do your homework and just consider where it's coming from. Think twice about how you're spending your dollars. And I have to remind myself of that all the time. It's so easy to run into Target to get some milk and walk out with three t-shirts in my hand because they're$9.99. So I'm constantly having to remind myself, okay, do I really need that? Do I really need another t-shirt, another tank top, or can I live without it? And just slow down. You know, think about it as a slower pace, less consumerism. What do I really need? Where do I want to spend my dollars? So just giving it that thought before you go out there and throw those three t-shirts in your shopping basket.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:22

Just to follow up on what Britta said, following up on my call to action, which is yes to as I learned in journalism school, if your mother tells you that she loves you, check it out. Confirm it. But but the onus shouldn't be on us alone that we need to to confirm these things, but also even to put pressure on the manufacturers, on the producers, like I did with Britta the very first time I met her, which is prove it. Okay. It shouldn't just be like I need to collect the evidence, but that anyone making a claim in our lives, but especially from the fashion industry, should back it up, back up their words with with the evidence to persuade us as a smart enough but skeptical audience. So, Peter, anything you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:14

Oh, yeah, I would just like to echo what Britta said. I mean, I think Vivian Westwood said it best whenever she was like saying, buy better, buy less, and look after it. Yeah. So rather than buying a ton of stuff, like save up and buy something better that will last longer and then look after it whenever you have it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:37

Words of wisdom for sure. Thank you, Vivian. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:41

Well, I'm super excited about all our future episodes too, because between the three of us and our network and our you know, years of experience, we have some, I think we'll have some really exciting guests that we can bring in. We're gonna talk about not just sustainability, but we'll get designers on here, we can get educators, you know, people from all different aspects of the industry to get all those different perspectives and points of view. And so I'm really excited to dive into future episodes and and the guests that we can bring on. And and we won't be covering six topics necessarily in every single one, but we'll have some focus on, you know, based on the the guests that we bring in. And and so I'm really looking forward to having those conversations.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:26

Great. Yeah. And so so uh I'm sorry, Peter, you want to add something?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:30

No, I was just saying exactly. I think each episode will just be around like a topic or two with people bringing their expertise that we can dive into. So it can necessarily be this long. That's right. But where we have more of the chance to explore and investigate and again come up with solutions to how you know what other people are doing, what other companies are doing, and the things that how people can make better decisions in going forward.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:59

This was an exception because we we we covered six different topics and we we introduced ourselves, but but absolutely moving forward. I like the idea of focusing on one, diving in deeply so that there's real value in in each episode. Okay, with as we said, with a guest from the the from the the front lines to illuminate the the the on-the-ground reality. Okay, so thank you all for for tuning in. If you like what you heard, please please subscribe, give us a like, follow us on socials, leave comments. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:34

Let us know what you would like us to talk about next.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:37

Yeah, or maybe if you want to be a guest as well. Maybe you're in the industry and you have a have years of experience, or maybe just starting and have something to share, let us know.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:48

Great, great. Thank you all. Thank you all. We'll see you at uh episode number two.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:54

Thank you. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:56

Sure, bye-bye. That's it for today's episode of the Fashion Situation Room.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:03

Thanks for spending time with us on the front lines of fashion.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:07

If you find value in this conversation, please subscribe, share, and leave a review. It helps us bring more meaningful voices to the table. And what call to action did you take?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:17

Let us know in the comments. See you next time.