A Fashion Brand's Dilemma: Greenwashing vs. Greenhushing

A Fashion Brand's Dilemma: Greenwashing vs. Greenhushing 

Should fashion brands boldly communicate their sustainability efforts – or stay silent for fear of being accused of greenwashing?

As consumers become more skeptical, regulations become stricter and scrutiny intensifies, fashion brands face an increasingly difficult communications challenge:

How do you earn trust without overpromising?

In this fascinating episode of The Fashion Situation Room, we explore one of the trillion-dollar fashion industry's most important – and least understood – debates: Greenwashing vs. Greenhushing.

Joining us is Olivia Pinnock, an award-winning British fashion journalist, lecturer and author whose reporting on sustainability and transparency has helped shape conversations across the global fashion industry.

Whether you're a fashion brand, designer, sustainability professional, marketer, communications leader, entrepreneur or simply interested in how companies build credibility, this conversation offers practical insights into one of today's biggest business dilemmas.

In this episode, we explore:

✔ What exactly is the difference between Greenwashing and Greenhushing?

✔ Why are some fashion brands becoming afraid to talk about sustainability?

✔ Does remaining silent actually damage consumer trust?

✔ Why do consumers demand transparency – but often struggle to interpret sustainability claims?

✔ How can brands communicate honestly without exaggerating their impact?

✔ What role will Digital Product Passports play in the future of fashion transparency?

✔ How will new European sustainability regulations reshape global fashion?

✔ Why are storytelling, evidence and authenticity becoming competitive advantages?

✔ How can emerging designers and independent fashion brands build trust – even without the budgets of global luxury brands?

Throughout the conversation, we also examine how journalists evaluate sustainability claims, why evidence matters more than marketing language, and how fashion brands can communicate both their progress and their ongoing challenges without losing credibility.

Amid the “global trust crisis” that we now face, one of this discussion’s most powerful insights is that consumers don't necessarily expect perfection – they expect honesty. The brands that acknowledge their challenges, demonstrate measurable progress and communicate transparently may ultimately earn far greater trust than those that simply remain silent.

About our guest: Olivia Pinnock is a London-based freelance journalist specializing in sustainable fashion and the future of the fashion industry. Her work has appeared in leading publications including Drapers, Vogue Business and Forbes. She also lectures at the London College of Fashion and Vogue College of Fashion, and her forthcoming book, Fashion Activism, explores how fashion can become a force for positive change.

The Fashion Situation Room podcast brings together three unique but complementary perspectives on today's global fashion industry:

Michael J. Jordan — Global Communications Specialist, former Foreign Correspondent and Strategic Storytelling expert

Britta Cabanos — Founder of Inside Fashion Design and Conscious Fashion Design Academy

Peter McLaughlin — Sustainability Strategist, former Design Director for global fashion brands and Harvard sustainability graduate

Together, we examine fashion through what we call the Four S's:

• Strategies
• Sustainability
• Storytelling
• Solutions

Every episode combines real-world experience, thoughtful debate and evidence-based insights designed to help fashion professionals build stronger brands, navigate industry change and prepare for the future.

👍 If you enjoyed this episode:

• Subscribe to The Fashion Situation Room
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• Share it with colleagues working in fashion, sustainability, branding or communications
• Leave us a comment:

Do you think fashion brands should communicate more openly about their sustainability journey – even if they haven't solved every challenge yet? Or has the fear of greenwashing gone too far?

We'd love to hear your perspective, and your comments may inspire a future episode.

#Greenwashing #Greenhushing #FashionSustainability #FashionIndustry #SustainableFashion #BrandTrust #Transparency #FashionBusiness #FashionMarketing #StrategicCommunications #BrandStorytelling #DigitalProductPassport #ESG #CircularFashion #FashionInnovation #FashionLeadership #ConsumerTrust #FashionJournalism #FashionPodcast #TheFashionSituationRoom

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:40

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Fashion Situation Room podcast where we'll talk about the global trillion dollar fashion industry and what we call the four S's strategies, sustainability, storytelling, and solutions. I'm your host, Michael Jordan, along with my co-hosts, Brittany Cabanos and Peter McLaughlin.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Hello, everyone. Hi.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

In today's episode, we'll explore greenwashing versus green hushing and the rising phenomenon of fashion brands who, out of fear of being accused of greenwashing and exaggerating their claims of eco-friendly, conscious, ethical, or sustainable products, choose to say nothing at all, even if they have proof to back up some of their claims. So to explore this issue, we've invited a special guest to join us. Olivia Pinnock, a British journalist who recently wrote a comprehensive article that caught our eye about this green hushing trend, which she published in the prestigious UK magazine Drapers, which some call the the Bible of the uh the British fashion industry. Olivia, please enter the Zoom. I need to admit her, of course. Okay. We lost her for a second, okay? Olivia, drum roll, please enter the Zoom. There she is.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Welcome, welcome. Yay. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

So let me introduce Olivia, okay? Olivia is a freelance journalist based in London. Her work focuses on what she describes as making the fashion industry better for people and planet. She's been published in Vogue Business, excuse me, Vogue Business, Forbes, Drapers, and other leading titles. Her debut book, Fashion Activism, is due to be published early 2027 next year. Congratulations on that, Olivia, by the way. In addition to her writing, Olivia also lectures at London College of Fashion and Vogue College of Fashion. And by the way, just to let you know, here I should share the screen and show I do want to here is her website. Okay. A little promo there. There's her LinkedIn. Can you see that? Yes. And then here was the article that caught our eye, and we'll be discussing today. This is Draper's and how to navigate the line between greenwashing and green hushing. Okay? So we'll include this in the notes later as a resource for you all. I'd like to first start though with the first question, but but a bit of background context, which is that greenwashing, that over the past 10, 12 years, that there are certain three different time periods that experts say that from roughly 2015 to 2022 saw the rise of greenwashing, of of marketing material uh for different brands, which made claims which were not supported by evidence. Then there was a backlash from roughly 2022 to 2025 where different watchdog agencies on both sides of the Atlantic then were cracking down on various brands to and forcing them to back up their claims. And now, from 2025 now up to the present day, is this rising counter-reaction of green hushing. Okay? So we want to ask Olivia, and one thing I'm curious about is what do you see? What have you and your colleagues at Draper's seen within the industry that even prompted this article that that that enabled you, that gave you the green light, like it's time to look into greenwashing.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, thank you so much, Michael, for that lovely intro. And uh Peter and Britta as well for having me on the podcast. Yeah, this feature came about because we've started to see a retreat from talking about sustainability. We we're also seeing a bit of a retreat from action on sustainability as well in the industry. It came out of conversations that we were having with both brands and sustainability consultants who were telling us that they're not seeing the benefits of talking about sustainability so much. So it's partly to do with the backlash that has come from people claiming greenwashing for what they were doing and sort of legislative environment on that as well, which has really tightened in the UK and in Europe, and I know in the US as well and other parts of the world. But also the other factor was that because of the greenwashing that's been going on, consumers feel so confused about what to look for and what they can trust. And so they've sort of been lacking an engagement on it. They've also felt a bit personally blamed for sustainability when they feel it should be the brands and retailers taking the responsibility for it. So they're not necessarily asking for it and calling for it from the brands, they're not really showing with their spending power that they want to buy into sustainability. So a lot of brands have started to go, what is the point? If we talk about sustainability, all we're gonna end up doing is putting ourselves in a legally dubious position, and it's not really resulting in sales either.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

Now, just a a quick follow-up before uh uh before Peter and Britta asked their questions. So but there is some effect of this, there's some negative effect to keeping quiet, right? The green hushing effect. So so what's that negative impact then?

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Well, I I think it's interesting what's the point of the thing.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Sustainability efforts overall. Sorry. Just to clarify, right? For the movement.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So once I started to dig into it and speak to the brands who are willing to speak to me for this piece, you know, a lot of them said that it's maybe a bit of a myth that consumers don't want sustainability. Like that they are still telling us that they do, but I don't think it's necessarily in the way that brands were expecting. They like to see brands taking action. There's kind of like a halo effect that happens. They might not necessarily be going into a store and looking at two pieces and going, oh, well, this one has a sustainability label on it, and this one doesn't, therefore, I'm gonna buy the sustainability labeled one. They're not necessarily doing that. But they do listen and engage when brands talk about it. And also, I think amongst the industry as well, there is value in talking about the work that you're doing and sharing that with your maybe even your competitors or your peers in the industry, and also talking about the problems and the challenges and going, hey, we you know, we we're really stuck on this issue and how to solve it. Do you have any better ideas? Can we collaborate on something? Can we, you know, they all share supply chains. So, you know, there are there are many other benefits as well that come from talking about sustainability. And I think the more that people stay quiet on it, the more people are going to start to believe, even if the work is being done, they're gonna believe, oh, no one else is doing it, so why should I bother doing it? And again, coming back to legislation, I talked about it before in terms of penalizing brands for greenwashing. But you know, what we're going to start seeing is brands being penalized for not sharing that information. We've got digital product passports coming in the EU market, and which was a big thing that I focused on in the article as well. And that will affect any brand that sells in the EU markets. It's not just EU-based brands. Um, it's anyone who sells in that market. And there's also things around sustainability reporting that's going to be coming up and things like that as well. So, you know, legislation is going to be asking you for information if you haven't got that information available, if you haven't got that data, if you're not able to say what you're doing about sustainability, that is going to hurt you sooner or later.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

Well, Peter will ask you about the digital passports soon, but but Peter, what what did you want to ask now?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Well, my question was really like just to give the definition of green hushing, the that it's intentionally downplaying or concealing their sustainability initiatives or environmental, social, and governance ESG efforts from the public eye. But there's other terms that are also around this, like green wishing, where companies make bold sustainability commitments without the necessary resources or capabilities to achieve them, or green rinsing where companies frequently change or update their sustainability goals and commitments without showing real progress towards achievement of them, or even green shifting, where businesses suddenly shift the responsibility for environmental sustainability onto consumers, engaging in a form of blame redirection. So, for example, when the oil company BP invented the individual carbon footprint idea back in 2004 with the help of the advertising agency Ogil V and Mather, it all misled it's all to mislead or to divert attention from a company's sustainability efforts. But why is green hushing particularly bad amongst all of those different strategies to sort of distract the consumer?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

When you say bad, do you mean like what's the effect of it?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Well, it's like because the reason, like because your your article was great and I and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I thought it was interesting that you focused on green hushing. Like so it was greenwashing versus green hushing. And so because then there's all of these different strategies, I was kind of curious why then you focused on the green hushing part.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

I think that is a timeliness issue. Really, that was the thing that we're seeing happening right now. I think from sort of the beginning of 2025, there was a lot of talk about, you know, I know McKinsey and Business of Fashion's annual state of fashion report, which is always hugely popular and really sets the bar for what's happening in the industry each year. They were seeing that their questions around sustainability and how high up on the agenda it was of executives were slowly sliding down. So it it's not happening in a vacuum, this issue. It is partly to do with the sustainability landscape and how difficult it has been for brands to navigate that space. But we're also living in a polycrisis world, and there are many other issues that are impacting brands and retailers right now, and sustainability just doesn't seem like the priority if it's not going to get you through if if focusing on sustainability is not going to save you from all the other issues that are happening for brands and retailers right now, then why would that be the thing that you invest in?

SPEAKER_04 12:26

Interesting. Yeah. Go ahead, Brita, did you want to?

SPEAKER_01 12:30

So, Olivia, your article highlights that consumers still want sustainability information, and you kind of touched on this in the beginning, saying that they often get confused and it's maybe overwhelming even. So, what do you think they're actually looking for that a brand could say that would be helpful to at least give them the kind of general understanding of what they're doing in sustainability? Do you have any ideas or insight on what the consumer would benefit from?

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, I think consumers more than anything want to trust a brand or a person. They they kind of want someone to have done the hard work for them. And because again, even people who are incredibly knowledgeable on this or brands, you know, we throw about there's a lot of sustainability terminology that gets thrown about a lot that we forget maybe because we use it every day in our jobs when you work in this space, that a lot of people don't understand. I remember when ASOURS brought out their circular fashion collection. I mean, this must have been back in like 2018, 2019 or something, and there was a news release, and there was, you know, like lots of fashion magazines covered it. And I I went into a classroom and I was like, What like do you guys understand what circular fashion is? And they were like, No, I mean, I kind of is it recycled stuff, you know, something a little bit to that. And so, and and the brands I spoke to for this article as well said, you know, we talk about our our 2030 agenda, and and that just completely confuses them. And they, you know, a lot of them don't even know what the UN sustainable development goals are, and you know, all of this kind of stuff. I had a student ask me, like, what's the difference between the UN sustainable development goals and B Corp? And I was like, I was like a lot a lot. A lot, yeah. So I yeah, I think you know, when we get they're not necessarily looking for specific information, they're not necessarily looking for, ah, if I see this. I mean, in some ways, I think that's actually why B Corp works really well, because I think it does provide a bit of a stamp of approval of like somebody else has looked at this for you, and it might not be perfect, but we kind of trust them and they're part of this community and things. I mean, not to say that B Corp doesn't have its issues, a lot of debate and talk about that as well. But like that's what consumers are are looking for, and most consumers are accessing their information around sustainability from brands themselves. They're not necessarily I follow the sustainable fashion influencer or I read this book about sustainability in fashion, like that's kind of just too much for them.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

And they're looking for it at the point that they are shopping.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, I was thinking about when I shop with my daughter who's early 20s, and she's studying sustainability, so she's very she's also very aware of the industry and all of that. But it if you go into say HM or any any retailer, you have to like look at the hang tag almost, because there's different sections and different qualities of of clothing, and there's like a sustainable section, maybe, or it's mixed in and and it might say something on the hang tag, but unless you're actively looking for that and reading the hang tag, you you don't really know, and you might just say, Oh, okay, well, this brand is working on sustainability, so they're great, and I'll just go into the shop and buy whatever. So that's I think there's a level of knowledge and understanding from the consumer that we haven't reached yet, you know, unless you're, like I said, like us in the space, I'm looking at the hang tag to see what the fabric is and if it has some icon on the hang tag for it's you know, eco-friendly. So I yeah, it's kind of it's a big challenge. It's a big shift in mindset for this consumer to take the time to read the hang tag and look specifically for those pieces.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

So that's it takes a lot of fun out of the experience as well. You know, like like people like to go shopping because it's fun and they see something beautiful and they want to have it, you know. If you're having to scan the QR code on every single thing, also might kind of have to deny myself that thing because I don't think it lives up to what it was, you know. So I I mean I wonder if there is more room for like multi-brand retailers, again, who've sort of done that combing for you. I mean, I know I know many, many people have tried to curate marketplaces and shops and things that have those sustainability criteria, and none of them have really taken off in a big way. But yeah, but I do think this like this halo effect is the important thing. I know that nobody's child, which is a brand here in the UK, who have been one of the first to introduce digital product passports, they sort of said, you know, because because people ask them, like, is anyone actually scanning those QR codes? And they were like, no. But the fact that we have it and the fact that people know it's there if they want it and that we are being transparent is kind of enough for people.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yeah. And that's something that I think over time people will get more used to and start doing more and more. But because it's brand new, I'm sure it's yeah, not quite caught on yet. Do you know one more follow-up question on that? Do you know if the United States I we we've been hearing so much about digital passports here in the US, but I don't know if or when it's gonna be required. So it's already happening in the U EU. Do you have any sense of the US as far as like le legally? Are we gonna have a a time frame when to implement that, or is it still kind of up in the air, as far as you know?

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Yeah, I as as far as I know, it's all still up in the air. I think everyone's kind of looking to the EU to see how it goes. Because there's still a lot of information that's even up in the air about the EU. Right, like they haven't outlined exactly what information needs to be on it, and it's gonna be a sort of phased introduction. So, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

We'll see what happens here. Yeah, yeah. It's a great idea, though. I love that it's happening.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah, I think it's a great opportunity as well to be creative with your digital product passport, which is is the fun side for brands, I think.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Yeah, for sure. Go ahead, Peter. I'm sorry, it was a yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah, just talking about the the digital product passports, in your article you were saying how it'll come into the EU in 2027, but that they haven't decided what information needs to go on there. My question was around that was considering Prada along with LVMH and Richmond, they had created the Aura blockchain consortium in 2021, which is fair enough, it's around like blockchain, but it was to communicate authenticity, responsible sourcing, and sustainability. Yet Prada is now under is currently under investigation from the Italian government for unfair labor practices, leading them to recently sabotage with over 220 suppliers. So do you think therefore that the upcoming digital product passports will just become another marketing tool that can be used for greenwashing rather than, you know, because if Prada didn't use the product that they've already done to understand labor practices, or is it one of those that then that kind of puts pressure on labor practices to be a part of the digital passport?

SPEAKER_04 20:32

But but but by the way, before you answer, do you think we need a definition of what is a digital passport? Because we're throwing it around like it's so so commonplace. So what exactly does that look like? How does it work? And then, of course, to answer what would Peter ask, please, Olivia.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah, so digital product passports are initiative that some brands already have, but they are going to be legally mandated as we've been discussing in the EU market, where essentially each product has to have some kind of scannable chip or QR code or something on it that consumers can access that will give them more information about that product. So currently, if you think about clothing labels, typically they will tell you the fabric composition and the country it was made in. That's pretty typical and pretty standard, and that tells you incredibly little actually. It tells you nothing about the specific factory it was made in, the conditions it was made in, any kind of environmental impact of that product. So that is what people who are backing this idea, that's what they want them to do is to provide consumers, empower them with more information. And and I think that to come to your question, Peter, is why transparency is so important. It is you know, transparency is not marketing. Sure, I think you know. Brands will use this as a storytelling opportunity to those who have a really great story to tell about their products will tell it. Those that don't have a great story to tell about their products will have to provide us with a bit of information. But you know, transparency is not boasting and gloating about how wonderful and fabulous fabulous you are. It it's about accountability. And sometimes these things happen out outside of brands knowing them, you know, because uh, you know, their clothing was you know outsourced from like the supplier that they hired, the supplier that they engaged with and audited and did their checks and all those things. And then they that factory subcontracts to another factory and their clothes are actually being made somewhere else, or it's further down the supply chain with a supplier that they don't have direct contact with, or something like that. This is often where violations happen and why this is such a difficult topic and a difficult challenge to encounter, right? But having this transparency is about making information accessible and open to people so that we can hold them accountable, so that you know if some if there is an incident, factory or a die house or a mill or something, we know exactly which brands they're supplying. We're gonna have easier access to information. So it's still gonna be on lawmakers and campaigners and NGOs and all these things to keep that accountability there and then you know, enforce change and watchdog on things. But it's gonna make their job easier because we're going to have that information. The brands are gonna have that information. This is actually so new for brands, they're not even knowing where their stuff is being made. Like they're all scrambling to get their data right now.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, because that was gonna be my question because ultimately a lot of brands, to your point, like they they don't know their full supply chain. They can know a main factory, but the factory can be the one that supplies the buttons or the zips or things, or you know, sometimes often the fabric. So even then a brand won't know where the fabric and stuff comes from. So this I can see it also potentially being a logistical nightmare for them, the production and operations, to try and get all their ducks in a row whenever that's not the way the system currently works.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

Yeah, absolutely. And and they change suppliers, and you know, particularly kind of trend-driven brands, like they might something suddenly come into fashion and they're like, right, we suddenly need a load of scrunchies that we've never made before. Okay, we don't have a supplier who currently makes hair scrunchies, we're gonna have to find a new supplier, and they work with them for one season while hair scrunchies are in fashion and then they move on to something else, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah. Or the tariffs. The tariffs made a lot of people to try and get a cheaper price, then they literally changed country to a country that had lower tariffs to try and get better price, to therefore not put it fully squarely onto the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, we actually had quite a funny incident when I was when I was teaching a class about digital product passports, and I tasked the students with finding out as much information they could about something they were currently wearing. And one of the students was looking at her shoes. And the the brand was like more transparent than the average brand, I would say. They had some quite good, you know, kind of QA section on their website, and it said, you know, where like where keep question, where are your shoes made? And they said, We work with suppliers in three countries China, Vietnam, and South Korea. Check inside your shoe to see where your shoe was made. And she took off her shoe and looked inside and it said, made in Cambodia. Aha, okay.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

You know, just uh to follow up about the transparency question and going back even to to trust and relying on on the companies, and even with that example. You know, my my specialty is the strategic communications and and fashion sustainability storytelling and and and and the need for evidence. Say whatever you want, but support it with evidence, especially what you're talking about then with the transparencies, even with the hyperlink, okay, then to sh to to to lead the the the the reader, the consumer, whoever wants to know, back to the original source of the information, right? And but but one thing I'm curious about too, I mean, we're facing a global trust crisis. It's not just in the fashion industry. All brands need to work hard to to prove that they mean what they say, right? And and all of them with so many lofty claims. We're doing this for the environment or the planet or for for animals, for people. Uh what what I'm wondering is is how about half measures, right? Because your your article also t talked about that there may be some companies, of course, with some evidence but are shy about the scrutiny. And while I was in I lived in in China working with some Chinese organizations, and I came up with a narrative of couldn't you say that while we've achieved XYZ challenges ABC remain. Okay, right? So some half measures, like like what you're saying that Patagonia as one company that's been quite candid about about challenges that they face, why are there not more companies that would be like, you know what? We're gonna be candid, we're going to spotlight our efforts and our evidence to to prove our efforts, but we're gonna be candid about it doesn't happen overnight. And there are challenges out there. We're gonna explain the challenges, but we're gonna hope to score points with the consumer to show them that we're truly making our best effort. What do you think about those possibilities?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, I think brands are are they they're so scared of that, yeah, admitting that they're not perfect. And I think that's just their it's just not habit to them. You know, they are and this this is why we've ended up in the greenwashing scenario is brands speak marketing copy. And so much of what we need with sustainability is not marketing copy, it is transparency, as we were just discussing. It is information, plain and simple information, and but I I think they need to trust consumers more. The trust needs to go two ways. I think you know, they need to trust that consumers will forgive them for not being perfect, they understand it's difficult if you show that you've thought about it and you're tackling it. You know, a lot of a lot of brands have retreated from using the words sustainable at all. Both small independent brands and certainly big brands uh have dropped that an awful lot. But it's quite interesting that you know, that even without the words sustainable, that kind of honest communication where they're like, here's what we're doing, here's what we want to be able to do, here's why we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Like that actually resonates really well with consumers.

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Well, do we need evidence that that does resonate well? That sort of candor, because not on listening to you, I'm imagining a sustainability page for a fashion brand where the text even opens that way. We're not perfect, but we're trying and we're making progress. So you're introducing the idea of some nuance. All right. And just that storyline is no one's perfect, but there's room for improvement, you know, right? Yeah, because I think the evidence to prove it.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Yeah, because that that's consumers' lives as well. Like, aren't we all stuck in situations where we're having to compromise our own values for for convenience or for price or for you know, the other things that we're looking for or or needing, you know, we're all trying to like no one's going to say that they don't care about the environment at all. People like people say when you ask them when you speak, and they're like, Yes, tackling the climate crisis is important, you know, the the vast majority of people who believe in climate change. Um but you know, that is the majority of the world, and we all want to see action on it. We all feel a little bit stuck and a bit like we're compromising on things. So yeah, you brands become a bit more human when they say they're struggling with it too.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I was gonna throw in that I love I love the Patagonia founder when he basically like threw up his hands and he's like, nothing we're doing is sustainable. And it was so honest and open about it that as a consumer, like going back to the trust factor, I trust him more because he's being completely transparent and saying, you know, we're trying, but we just haven't got there yet. And and so I I tend to go to that brand because I have they have gained my trust because they're being completely honest about it.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Well, that's interesting. Have you seen any results? Uh it's it's worth investigating. Like if they are the canary in the coal mine for for for being candid about the nuance, we're trying, but it's hard. I wonder if they saw some uptick in sales that more people felt like you're like, I'm touched by that. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah, it would be interesting to see. Yeah. I definitely think the sentiment there was a there was a lot of talk when they published their impact report. When was it like six months ago now?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

It was called a work in progress.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

It was called a work in progress, so upfront. So narrow work in progress. And there was there was backlash to it too. You know, I saw criticism, they're like, oh my goodness, look at, you know, they've finally told us how much plastic product they're producing. And it was like, yeah, but there are also so many companies producing loads of plastic products who aren't telling us how much they're producing or what they're doing. And you know, I'm I'm always so impressed when I speak to Patagonia about how consistent their messaging is as well. Like it runs from, you know, the employees I speak to when I interview who are really high up at headquarters, through to their retail store staff, through to their social media, through to their website, through to their impact report. Like everything they communicate follows this. Like I remember reading a blog post from them in the past that said, like, you know, we have a plastic problem. That was the headline of the blog post on their own website. And yeah, and and people do, I mean, when they their very infamous don't buy this jacket ad from what year was that now? Like 2011. 2011. 2011. Oh, look at that, me getting my dates right. Um I mean, it's such a like it's like a cliche marketing example of that. But yeah, like the following year, their sales went through the roof.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Yeah. That jacket that they literally had on a poster saying, do not buy this jacket was there became a bestseller.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

There's your there's your evidence, Michael. It's yeah, proved the results and in the sales.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Just shows your contrary people can be.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:58

You know, just one quick question before Peter and and Brita continue with their questions. I'm curious, since you this is a well-sourced story that you wrote, quite comprehensive. But but early on you you you you alluded to were there companies that did not want to speak with you and why? Were they themselves hushed that we we we don't want any media attention and they turn down interviews? I'm curious about even the the story behind the story of putting together such articles.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Yeah, a great question, Michael, coming from a fellow journalist.

SPEAKER_03 34:35

I'm curious, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes, there are yes, there are always people who don't want to speak to me. They they never say why they don't want to speak to you. Usually they'll give you some like, oh, no one's available for this piece right now. I have my suspicions. Yes, no comment. Yeah, I have my suspicions.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

If you say, Oh, my deadline's been extended a week, oh they're still on holiday. Yeah, the reason why they're still unavailable. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yeah, and it it is a source of frustration for me as a journalist that you know I now, having reported on this space for many years, uh, you start to end up talking to the same people, and then you start to feel like you're not getting the story or you're not getting the full picture because there are brands who yeah, w want to talk about it, want to, you know, have the difficult conversations and they're really open about it. And and again, you know, I I also have different experiences when I speak to sustainability directors at brands. Sometimes I walk away from an interview thinking, I really don't trust your your agenda within your your role. And there are those who I'm so impressed with and I think are phenomenal, and you know, they might not be working in what we might conceive as particularly nice companies when it comes to environmental impact, but they themselves are incredibly knowledgeable and doing amazing work. So, yeah, it it it is I mean, what can you do? You've just got to keep trying and knocking on doors and hoping someone speaks to you.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

But I it's interesting because they also say that you know, like if if a company or a supplier you're working with isn't just based on what you were saying about like, you know, not a great company but a great person working there, it it's you know, if you're working at a supplier and there is, you know, issues or whatever, rather than a company or a brand walking away from there, the whole point is to work with them, to get them up to speed and get them better. So it's great that's that you know there's good people working there because hopefully their voice will eventually be heard and action be taken.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

Yeah, that's that's absolutely what we hope. And but you what you need for that to happen is to make sure that the values and the goals that are driving the sustainability team is also in line with the executive team, because otherwise it's all too easy to just go, well, our you know, our goals and our direction has changed and that person gets made redundant, or they have all their resources cut and it makes their work incredibly difficult. You know, that's also sort of what we're seeing as well, quite a bit of. And you know, as we just mentioned, they're all now scrambling to get the data they're going to need in order to be transparent, right? So a lot of the sustainability professionals that I speak to, they're like, my job is just, you know, 80% trying to get data and trying to get information, and then it's become a compliance role rather than pushing the agenda and progress and change and the things that they want and action in it. But my hope is that this is just a sticky spot. Like once you have those things in place, it'll be so much easier to maintain. And then you can work on the real progressive issues. But it we're in a bit of a crunch space right now, I feel.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

Just to follow up on the on the data question. I'm wondering if some companies, some clients don't even maybe maybe struggle to even identify evidence. Like what is what would evidence of our impact even look like? How do we identify it? How do we unearth it? How do we illuminate it? That's right, that's right. And so it's like, okay, well now there's certification, right? Uh Peter was asking about that. Uh that that's one form of evidence, but how to think they're gonna identify and and and in in terms of companies, I can only imagine that those companies with evidence would be more confident about speaking publicly. Those who are on shakier ground would keep quiet. It would seem irrational for a company that says, we have evidence and we know that we are good and delivering, but we're gonna keep quiet. Right?

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but but I I do also have concerns around how being able to quantify and evidence change, shapes the agenda of what we're changing. So, for example, carbon emissions is obviously it's huge, it's super important, and you know, is what we need to do, and it's aligned with government goals and the Paris Climate Agreement and you know, big global goals. But it's also quite good for brands because you can kind of quantify it without going into the ins and outs of the difficulty of measuring carbon footprint. But you know, you can get a number and you can talk about reducing it by certain percentage and all those kind of things. There are other elements to the sustainability story that are much harder to quantify. For example, biodiversity or human rights. You know, it's quite harder to get numbers and evidence. A lot of that evidence is more qualitative. And I think that steers brands away from tackling those issues because they can't report on it so easily.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

And also just uh just on top of that, there was even a few years ago in Scandinavia, I think it was in Sweden, because a lot of brands use the Higue index, which is now a worldly. But the the tricky thing, so they use life cycle analysis for whether it's carbon, water, those things to quantify it. But they're so expensive to do that the ones that already exist, hit the Hig index uses it for people to gauge roughly how much like carbon they're using, water they're using, etc. But whenever then that kind of came out, a lot of the scientists who did those, like you you can't it's uh comparing apples to oranges. If you're doing something, if it is a life cycle analysis that happened in India, then you can't apply that to something that happened in China. And one of the problems was talking about marketing, was that then some people were using then that in their marketing. And so it was a Scandinavian court, a judge said both to a small brand, no, you can't use this because it's not quantifiably your information, and even told HM that you cannot you can't even use that that information going forward. So they were already cutting it off before it even started, because people were then you know greenwashing all of this information.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Yeah, there's a lot of bad data out there.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to collect and it's hard to make it your own. But but but my because my question would be then for smaller brands, like what do they do? Because the big brands that you mentioned in your article, like Lacoste and Nike, I mean, they can, if they want to, do third-party verification. So whether it is about you know water or recycling or whatever, they can afford it. So I guess my question is why don't they do it more? And ultimately, because they cost thousands per year, because you have to renew them every year, what can smaller brands do for that verification to prove that their values and intentions are honorable?

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah, great question. So I think the advantage that smaller brands have over larger brands in this space, they might not have the huge budgets and resources to gather this data or whatever it is they want to do or get certification, but they have smaller supply chains. They often have better, more intimate relationships with their suppliers. They often have typically more local supply chains, not always, but a lot of the time. So they've visited them and been there. And I think that's where this softer storytelling can play a role. Like as we were saying, consumers are not looking for, oh, uh, you know, I'm going to buy from this company rather than this company because this company told me that their carbon footprint was, you know, this or whatever. They're looking for that trust factor. And that's where you can share stories about, you know, publish a visit to your suppliers, tell them who the people are, tell them why you trust that your supply chain. Like what do you look for? And you know, what do you do you have a supplier code of conduct that's in line with the ILOs, like the international labor organizations? kind of recommended things. So like like this is what we do. We can't necessarily afford huge certificates or you know all of these things because they're out of scope for us. But we can tell you with with stories that we're able to tell that bigger brands aren't able to tell you.

SPEAKER_04 44:18

But shows some authentic effort, some sincere effort at least, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

So my question was going to to follow up on Piers was I work with a lot of smaller, independent, emerging designers and they don't have the resources and capabilities. And I'm thrilled that we have you and Michael both as journalists here today and talking so much about storytelling as you've just you know pointed out. So do you have any advice or ideas that we could share with if we have a small brand, emerging designer, independent designer listening like how can they build that story from a journalist point of view to really as Michael would say like kind of prove their impact and really share that with their consumer so that they understand you know who they are using and and I guess how would they use that in their own marketing? Any advice from a journalistic point of view?

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Yeah I think I'm going to use a really annoying buzzword now but people are obsessed with authenticity at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah that is a term every day. There were terms there were terms that are used over as opposed to being safe like to be authentic.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

But you know I I think this the small brands that are really killing it are the ones that kind of play by their their own rules I think sometimes once you start plugging into the traditional fashion systems, you know, the kind of old ways of doing things it's a bit easy to to lose yourself. But you know building relationships with customers where you're open and transparent about your processes and what you care about, what's interesting, you know and I think brands that have done really well are ones that have like tapped into a specific community and said like hey I you know I'm I'm the founder of this business and I also belong to this community and I want to have this dialogue with you and I want to you know like what are the things that you care about, the things I care about and I want to show you and bring you into this brand and this business I think really works with consumers for from a journalistic point of view it's getting really hard to cover and report on small independent brands in the sustainability space because there's not a lot of new stuff because we're still tackling the same old problems and we are looking for newness and we're looking for impact right so it's no longer enough you know I get a lot of emails or messages from small independent brands and they're like hi this is me this is my brand do you want to write about me and I'm like that's not a story I'm looking for a story because I'm a journalist I'm okay if like if you don't like maybe traditional press isn't for you like if you're just spending ages putting together press releases that aren't landing with big brands or whatever I don't think you have to play that game anymore. If you have a really strong hot take if you're doing something really genuine genuinely innovative and amazing and POW absolutely tell the press about it. We'll love it but focus on your community.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Yeah I love the term I mean it's another term that's so happening is community but when I work with the designers I'll often say that through social media or however they're reaching their tribe if that's what you want to call it those become loyal consumers of your brand. So you don't have to be worldwide and selling big quantities you can you can build your brand and you're going back to building that trust building your community and then your followers and you can share your messaging through that and it might be Instagram or whatever social media you're using. But I I feel like you can tell your story find the find the right people that resonate with you and what you're what you're making what you're creating and so I like hearing that and and it's still opportunity whether you're a big brand or a small brand there's a way to go about getting capturing that opportunity for consumers and sharing your story.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

And and insert hyperlinks to your evidence.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Hyperlinks yeah support you so just as we're like wrapping up so two questions. So where do you really see all of this going in like 10 years time? And ultimately one of the things that we love to end our podcast on is really about a call to action. So therefore like for the consumers and the customers out there what advice would you give to our listeners that they can do to advance the cause questions.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

So where do I see this going in 10 years? I think it's gonna get a little bit more bleak before it gets better. I'm ultimately hopeful but I do think that the next few years are going to be rocky. I think there's going to be a lot of people still continuing the struggle continuing the the fight to champion sustainability within fashion if you're one of those people please keep going we so need you definitely right now. Don't give up don't give up don't give up I do think we're gonna see a lot of brands closing I think the crunch of fashion is such a saturated market like a crazy saturated market and at big brands the goal is still just growth growth growth more you know keep producing and that is not sustainable in a business sense never mind in sustainability sense and I think once the kind of all the various different bits of regulation and legislation related sustainability come into force it's gonna be really difficult for some brands to keep up there's gonna be fines there's gonna be lawsuits and I think that is going to unfortunately I think it's gonna hit independent brands more than it's gonna hit the big players. That's the sad part of it. But being hopeful and the optimist that I'm I identify as an idealist rather than an optimist but I I do think that it's going to again when when you remove some of the competition it allows fashion to slow down a bit to settle a bit to do things better and I think the investment in sustainability is going to keep going and it's going to grow yeah I think things are rough right now and they will continue to be rough for a few years but I think we're gonna come out of it a bit better.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Steps forward and step back Yeah especially because we had the the pandemic like there was literally a pause button so whenever you're saying to slow down and pause there was that opportunity to stop rethink and approach it differently and yeah it just came out with business as usual if not more so to cut to because then they had all that inventory they needed to sell and needed to recoup and try and get more profits to for what they lost. So and so therefore your your call to action your call to action to the people who are out there listening what do you think they should do?

SPEAKER_02 52:18

So I think if you are a consumer I think stop getting tangled up in is this sustainable or is that sustainable or like you know what do I trust and think about your soft influence and think about what you are consuming mindfully and you know where can you again I think not buying as much is so much more important than buying this over that. So don't listen to the messages of buy this buy this buy this drown that out if you can it's not easy. You are like again I don't blame consumers like you're constantly being bombarded with marketing messages but yeah don't get caught up in that and think about your soft influence in terms of your immediate community and the conversation you have with your friends and your family can you introduce clothes swapping amongst your friends can you talk to your family about doing Secret Santa at Christmas rather than buying each other useless stuff that you're all going to return to the store come January all those things they seem really small actually they're so influential and impactful. If you are someone who works in the fashion industry my call is to keep being that voice at the table no matter what you do, where you are if you're a designer if you work in retail if you like are a visual merchandiser like whatever you do like we all have a role to play and just keep being that person who stands up for the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

That's a great answer yes.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

I love that although you did say before that shopping is also fun. So you have to find an alternative find an alternative fun activity.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Swapping clothes with your friends is fun.

SPEAKER_04 54:19

Customizing your clothing is fun dropping vintage it's already new yeah well well thank you so much Olivia for this enlightening conversation this is great and and and for those of you listening or watching at home if you liked what you saw, liked what you heard please give it a like read the word for us on test comments if if there are other topics you'd like to explore like for us to explore we'd like to hear your your call to actions what you do.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yes and if you want to learn more website is oliviapinock with twoands dot co dot uk thank you for that plug and look for her book next year Fashion Activism.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Yes that's right yeah thank you until next time thank you all thank you so much that's it's it's it's it's a good