The Judgement Free Zone

Welcome to our Podcast!

Faith Curious is a podcast for skeptics, seekers, and the spiritually tired.

We’re not experts—just two guys having honest conversations about faith, doubt, and the hard questions around Jesus.  No pressure. No easy answers.  Just a place to explore what you believe, at your own pace.

https://faithcurious.buzzsprout.com/2569002

You Tube:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6LMmRuPXqtRFaYp8JuA7Wg

Reach Jim & Larry at faithcuriouspodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hey everyone, welcome to Faith Curious. So, what makes this conversation about Faith different? Hey, we're just two guys with no hidden agenda. What you see is what you get.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Now, so I'm joined, hey man, by you? Ah, surely! Who are you? My name is Larry Horton, and I am uh hi Larry. I hey nice to nice to be here. Nice to hang with my man.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

I'm Jim McCauley. Amen. Why are we here, man? What what in God's name brought us uh to this place?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Well, here's here's a great question for you. All right, so you're tuning into a podcast called Faith Curious. How do we end up with that name? Tell me what the meaning behind the name is.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Well, the reason we call it Faith Curious is it it's it's descriptive of kind of the audience that we seek, but maybe more importantly, it's funny. Amen. I mean, it's it's it's we're not taking ourselves too seriously, let's be honest. Yeah, it's uh it's got a little, I don't know, it's got a little double entendre ring of truth to it, you know, it's just kind of funny. But really, um, you know, we Larry and I want to do a podcast um about faith. And we want to reach people that are maybe curious about faith, maybe have been hurt by faith, maybe, you know, um that you know they're they're they don't believe and they don't want to believe and they think it's ridiculous, but there's still a curiosity there, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

That's who we want to talk to. I believe that people have questions that they don't ask. Did your grandma ever tell you people don't talk about two things, religion and politics? Right. Right? And and and there's a lot of folks out there who, oh, I don't want to talk about that. Yeah. But at the end of the day, if you can't have the conversation, then you're left to your own thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah. And you're just rolling around in your own head. Let me ask you this, Lar. What's your goal? How many people do you want to convert to Christianity by this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, zero. Zero. At the end of the day, zero. I how great would it be if you just had an open, no expectations, no strings-attached conversation where you could just ask it all.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:37

It's been rolling around in your head, and you just ask it all.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

And you're not asking somebody who has been to seminary, who has committed their entire life to, you know, you're asking two guys who've really screwed up in life and who have who have won and who have lost, and who just, you know what? Um have been there. Have I I've had questions. I I would imagine you've had questions. Absolutely. Still have questions. Every day. Yeah, still have questions, yeah. And how great would that be if if we because I never had that. I don't know if you ever had that, where you could just show up and just, hey, I'm doubting here.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Yeah. Um, no, never had that. Yeah. And I think most people go through life like that. Like, uh, it it because I think it's a longing in us to believe in something bigger than ourselves, but then there's so much noise out there. You again, we're not experts, right? We're just two guys who um found how incredibly meaningful having a faith is to us. We're, like we said, we have questions every day. We're trying to understand it and be better at it. Um, and again, we want to share our experience with anyone that is wherever you are and having some of the same questions and thoughts and curiosity about why faith, what is faith, which faith, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

And if you're not curious, don't listen. You know, if you're not curious, yeah, then don't listen. If your mind is made up and you're just not interested, yeah, then we're we're not we're not wanting to ice skate uphill, man. Do your thing, do you, man.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

This is not about us convincing you otherwise. Yeah, but if you have a question, which I sure hope you hell you do, if you have a question, or if you're even even slightly just confused, or or or you're actually pretty pretty solid in what you believe, yet you've had questions. You know, man, take a listen. I I would love it if down the road we got questions from folks who are listening and and really just challenged us. Like, don't pull back any punches.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Right, right. Um, so I'm a uh I'm a host on another podcast and um completely different, right? Uh, Larry obviously knows this. Um it's called the 360. Great podcast. It's it's three 60-year-old guys that have known each other for 50 years. Okay? So, you know, we have fun, talk about the past, talk about interesting things, whatever. The reason I say that is one of our faith comes up every now and then because, you know, I'm the faith guy, and then there's, you know, a guy who um is more agnostic, and then, you know, a guy kind of in the middle. So we all have different views on it, and it's come up. And we had an episode where we talked about like what are the what are the three things you wanna, you want your kids, you know, on my deathbed when I'm gone. Like, what are the three things I want them to get from? I love that, right? And one of them for me was the idea of wrestling with faith. I I I want them to have that. I don't want Jenny and Haley, I mean, sure I do, but I'm not indoctrinating them to Christianity, and I won't, because that's not meaningful, right? I I want them to seek their path um and find it on their own because that's gonna be the most meaningful thing for them.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

What I love about that is who we are as human beings, and we I had talked about this a little bit last night, we're physical, we're emotional, we're intellectual, we're sexual beings, we're not religious beings, we're spiritual beings. Like to deny our own spirituality is to truly deny who we are in our existence. And so here you are talking about what you impart on your legacy, and that is not, oh well, here's how to religion. You're what you're talking about is here's how to engage with the core of your existence and your spirituality.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Now, and how to be a critical thinker. Amen. I'm not gonna tell you what to believe. I'm not gonna tell you you should be a Democrat or a Republican, or I will tell you you need to be a Cubs fan.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Alright? I'll tell you not to be a Dodger fan. So I mean, right, I mean that these are things that are just corridor existence.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Well, we just lost. I I saw I'm looking at demographic stats, you know, on the screen, and we just lost all of LA. Yeah, the West Coast is out is out, and and Wisconsin is gone, yeah. So was Missouri. We lost our first city in uh in five minutes, but that's alright. That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

It's okay, you know. We picked up Chicago. Truly just don't care.

unknown 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Like, I want you to get to know what we're bringing to the table, and it's and it and it's weird, right? You've never met us before, but I want you to trust that we're we're truly going to say, yeah. Um we're we're we're gonna accept your curiosity and not not come at you with some kind of agenda.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

But to that point, I got a good friend, one of my best friends, guy in the podcast, Terry, you know who you are, right? Shout out. Who who one of the questions he likes to ask me or has asked me about religion, spirituality, whatever, is do I believe that if he doesn't believe what I believe, he's going to hell? Right? You know, I love that. I love that so much. And and what I tell him is, Terry, I love you, but I don't it's not my job to um to worry about where you're going or what you're doing or how you're living your life. Right? Amen. I my I believe, you know, my faith tells me because I believe I'm going to heaven. But that does not mean that I have opinions about other people. I do not. I I can't I I can't carry that. God, can we bold print that?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's fascinating how this is this is what's sad, is somebody came along to him and said that to him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

And and and maybe it was some cat on the corner as he's walking into a football game, and they're they got a big sign and they're yelling in a megaphone, and and and that's fine, right? I I'm not trying to judge those guys as well, but that's not what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

What we're talking about here is I have a relationship spiritually, and that relationship spiritually is not uh a license to judge, it's not a moral high ground, it's not it's not an ivory tower. What that is, is uh uh a relationship with with uh something so much bigger than me, man. It's just just celestially like universally bigger. But it's about you, and it's connection, it's about you, yeah. And and my job in in that relationship is not to go around and judge other people and tell you what your future's gonna be, or even pretend like I know what the big man's plan is. I mean, how arrogant would that be?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Tell you how to live your life, or if you do this, then that this means that about you, and yeah, no, none of that. None of that.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

Well, my job is to do, and this is gonna sound a little hokey and if you want to do a kumbaya and start holding hands, that's fine, but at the end of the day, you know, I'm my job is to love you.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

And that's that's not an easy thing to do. I don't want to, I don't want to just throw that L word around like it's nothing, but like that that means that's a very that's a very difficult process to love you, whoever you are, in whatever situation you are. You know, my son taught me unconditional love, and it wasn't pretty. It wasn't pretty at all. But that unconditional love is acceptance and sacrifice and generosity, and it's and that's the true love aspect of it. It's not judgment at all, in any way, shape, or form, you know? Um, and and that is really what we're talking about here, as we're bringing in listeners to have questions about the things that we want to address.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

And I'll say, you know, uh going back to love. I love you, right? Amen. You may you may piss me off at times, right? And that's okay, yeah, right? Because that then challenges me to see beyond um your defects as a human being, because we all have them, right? And I have them. Um and it it challenges me to accept you as who you are and get over the fact that whatever you did pissed me off and still love you. And that that's ongoing with all the relationships in my life.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume, I'm gonna assume that some of our listeners that just that what you said right there, that's unique to their lives. You know, in in some of our listeners' situations, they don't have that freedom to just be uh accepted. I mean that's a that's a foreign concept to them. And then now I want you to take that acceptance and I want you to layer on this faith conversation that we're gonna have and say, is that even possible? That you can accept me for me, not want to change me, and at the same time answer questions that I have about my spirituality.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

And we're here to say, if you're faith curious, absolutely. Wow. Oh that was that was like so close to professional.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Like I But just far enough away from the people.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

No, no, no, no, it might have even been professional. I don't know. Um, but I couldn't, I admittedly I can't give that to you right out of the gate. I wouldn't if I were you. Well, because you don't know me. I know you, but I don't know you.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Who are you?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Who am I? Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Well, obviously you're a father. You've talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

I I am a father. You're a podcaster. Um I'm a father, I'm a podcaster. You're an actor. In more in more ways than one. Um so I I referenced before three six-year-old guys. I'm a 64-year-old um dude uh living in Arizona. Um dad with two daughters. Matter of fact, most things in my life are female. Yeah, crazy. I've got uh four sisters and a brother. Any dog I've ever had has been female. Um any animal, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Wow, I'm I'm like, that's I'm just now realizing and you say that I have a similar situation.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

So you're a dog guy, you're not a cat guy.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

I'm a dog guy, not a cat guy. You know what I you know what I learned, you know what I take away from all the females in my life is I put the toilet seat down. Oh I mean, you know, like it's the least we can do.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

From the hilltops one.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

It's the least we can do.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, holy cow.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Um I have uh a history of recovery, uh, and and deal as Larry mentioned, you know, we've we've messed up in our lives. Amen. I certainly have. I've hurt people along the way, um, but I've owned that and I've learned from it, and I've tried to be better.

unknown 14:30

Right?

SPEAKER_00 14:30

So you're not perfect? Is that what I'm here? I am not anything close to perfect. Um I'm not anything close to perfect. And here's the thing going back to faith. I know I'm going to heaven because I believe, and that doesn't mean I have to be perfect. It doesn't mean I have to be just good as. It doesn't mean I have to, you know, just live a good life and be good. Like that's not what I believe, right? Right. Um, but I'm still I have screwed up and I will screw up.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

That that's a distinction that I think, God, I wish I could highlight that too. Like, how can you highlight speech? But um, yeah, I think that's that's a huge point that you're making right there.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

The other thing that I'll say about me is uh I would I would uh categorize myself as I'm a gatherer of communities.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

I love that. That is a great idea. What an accurate description that is of you, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

I have so many communities in my life that are real important to me, right? Um church, I mentioned the podcast, high school friends, family, recovery friends, right? Uh where we met, right? Amen. I know you're gonna talk about that. Yep. Workout buddies, bike riding buddies. Uh I go to a breakfast joint where I I know the servers, I know what's going on in their life, and that's important to me, is is just having community and getting to know people and being seen and trying the best I can to be authentic and vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I I wanna I wanna punctuate that and and say that you are you have a talent for connection. Thank you. You have it and and and it's a talent, it's a skill, but it's all it's a gift. I mean, yeah, and I think that those who know you will absolutely agree with this as they're listening to this. You have a talent for really connecting with people in a way that's authentic, whether or not you've just met them or whether or not you've known them for a long time. And I don't think anybody listening to this podcast who knows you would would disagree with that. I I I truly, and that's one of the things I admire about you, one of the things I love about you. Because it is it is about authenticity, um, and it is about just you know appreciating uh the presence of another human being. That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Well, thank you for that. That is very meaningful. Um I now realize that I'm gonna have to find something nice to say about you when we talk about who you are.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Well, let's not get too crazy. So you know, you're you're already being judged for being a Coast fan.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

So I I hope I hope you give me some good material. Um just to finish up on me. I like to think I'm funny, you know, I'll let you be the judge of that.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

You know, sometimes maybe, sometimes not. I I, you know, back in the community thing, I crave deep relationships. Like, if if we're just gonna sit down and talk about the Cubs, there's nothing wrong about that, right? Like, I like Cubs, but that can't be all our relationship is. Right. It cannot be because it's superficial. Um, and I and I crave deep. I don't do fake well in relationships. Like uh, I don't do me, me, me well. Um, I'll admit it, right, wrong, or indifferent. Um, I just don't. And then, you know, lastly, I believe in Jesus and would love, you know, to to help you uh on your journey, whatever that journey is. Uh I'm I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. Oh, you're gonna talk about you?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Well, I will. I will. But I I want to further kind of, you know, I think some things that are very important there. Uh what industry did you come from?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

I was a uh in your work life. I I was a sales guy in the health insurance industry.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Okay, okay. Yeah. So like there's some corporate stuff going on there. You know, it's not like it's uh Johnny come lately, you're you've you've had uh some significant business acumen. Um do you what do you like to do in your spare time? And and you know, this is I'm gonna hint to you with a little hand gesture.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

I've became I've become a vicarious reader. Um, and I was not like I was a one to two book a year guy. Um I you know, I was a I was a good enough student way back in the day to get by. Right, right? Like just good enough to get by. Yeah, did not apply myself, did not care, had very little interest in in school. I got older, and all of a sudden, now like the last I don't know, five, ten years, you know, just reading a lot of books, books on spirituality, books on history, you know, I I had no idea how fascinating some history could be.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Um the history of this country, World War II, um, just you know, fascinating. Um I love memoirs, I love books about people that are successful, yeah, and I'm I'm really interested in like their story, typically when they're young. Like how did they get started on their journey as a musician or an actor or businessman or whatever?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

I just think it's really interesting. That tracks because you are curious and and you are relational. So that's yeah, that all tracks really, really well. So let's talk about me. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I I am I'm very funny, extremely humble.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Um, I'm the most humble guy in my family. Um I've got a wife and a daughter. My daughter is uh uh young. I had her at the age of 42. I'm I'm I'm in my early 50s right now. Uh is that right? No, 44. Holy cow. I I was told there'd be no math. So um I I my wife, I've I've made a lot of mistakes in my time. I that my wife is uh uh thank god for her. She she is amazing. Um and at the end of the day, uh I've I've been married a couple times. Uh why you ask? Well, I I was in law enforcement. So those two things go together. Um I'm a 20-year retired Phoenix police officer. Um and then I I uh, you know, I I moved to Arizona for that job. I I I ended up starting out in Oregon. Um my mom is uh she she came to America from the Philippines, um deeply Catholic. And I laugh because I grew up in Catholic school and the whole I was an altar boy. Same uh, which is like I look back on that and I just kind of I don't know how I feel about that. Um right now I I'm I'm I'm I'm wonderfully uh free. I I'm I'm living off of my pension and and some investments, and and uh as a result, I've got some freedom to to do some things. And I've really in 2014 I I met this guy uh uh while I was going through 12 step recovery, and uh which is another massive aspect and and a lot of the reason why I have a spiritual connection like I do. And I started attending this church, and and and my faith just exploded. It grew so significantly in relationship and just uh philosophy. Now ironically, in that time, I also became this closet economist. Uh I I I have this hobbyist mentality about economy, because economics to me is the anti-conventional wisdom because it's based on data, and I love that. I I I I am just so hungry for that. I'm a I I love podcasts. I I admittedly, I'm a freakonomics guy. Uh, I've read all the books and listened to them pretty pretty regularly. Uh, but I love I, you know, if you ask me a question, I'm gonna come at you with, all right, you know, what's that based on? And I think that plays into, you know, I'm a data guy. I really appreciate the data, and I and I appreciate that uh especially on a monetary, on a financial, on a fiscal level. And some of you might say who are listening, well, that doesn't make sense that you're also uh faithful or religious. And and I'm telling you, it it could not support my faith more. The data thing is a big deal. And I the cynics out there are gonna say, well, you're just trying to justify your own ideology or methodology, and um, and that's fine if you say that. But as we have this further relationship and conversation, and our listeners go further into episodes with us, they're gonna see where that that that passion for data and facts actually does translate to emotional intelligence and spirituality. And it's gonna be a fascinating journey. Um I've never been to seminary, I'm not some kind of uh, you know, uh religious guy. I I appreciate uh conversations and and and having you know having my faith challenged and tested, but I'm so imperfect, I can't even tell you. And I think lastly, I'll close with, you know, I can kind of be intense. It's a it's a thing, it's a passion. Um, but I also enjoy, you know, I don't take myself too seriously, which is a weird like paradox. I can be super intense, but I also just don't take myself too seriously. I I truly don't think like, you know, hey, uh we're all trying, we're all in this together. Um, and and there's a lot of imperfection, so let's just kind of embrace that. But when I do get passionate about something, I dig in, man. It's fun.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, you do, man. Yeah, you do. Um you uh so as much as I read, I'm a podcaster too, but you like blow me away. I do like a podcast. I will walk up to Larry's car, and there's I don't think I've ever been a time where there's not a podcast going on.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I just do one on the way over here.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Um in a weird coincidence, Larry and I both spent time at the University of Missouri. Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm from Chicago area. Larry is from Oregon. We both I spent a year there, but you spent four years there.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, when I saw that Harpos cup in your kitchen, he blew me away. Oh my gosh, that was crazy. Um, did you mention your daughter? Yeah, yeah. Oh, you did. And my son is 31. Okay. Uh he's from a previous marriage. Um, and I'm not gonna give you his name because I'm gonna talk about his journey. He he is uh in recovery as well, um, you know, considerably younger. Um, but at the end of the day, uh, you know, I I adopted him at the age of 14, and and ours has been a pretty up and down relationship because I've I've done him wrong on quite a bit of stuff. But at the end of the day, you know, I've I've really just tried to stick with that. And um, you know, in the imperfection, him and I have grown together. Uh I I'm I'm I just love him, man. I love him. Uh and and I'm just proud of him. I'm proud of who he's become and and and his his his grit and his fight. I dig it. I dig it.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

And Emery is how old?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Emory's six right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Six, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah, she's getting to the point where she can lift things with her mind. It's fascinating to watch. She can set things on fire just by looking at them. Wow, that's amazing. Very mentally powerful.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Yeah, no, she's awesome. And dude, you're a great dad. Um you know, you mentioned uh you mentioned you did him wrong. I think you did him right too. Over and over and over and over and over again. Um and I I realized uh I did not mention my wife Sarah. You're right. I did not mention that, so married for the third time again. So you're picking up some of the uh some of the You want to see a perfection? There you go. Some of the roadblocks, some of the roadblocks in the past, the potholes of our history. Um, but uh, you know, the love of my life, an amazing woman um that I am with, and two daughters, Haley 20, Jenny 35, Sue Louis 36. Wow. Um yeah, yeah. So uh yeah, that's kind of all of who we are. Um and I and our our goal is to continue to share that with you, right? Not that this is about us, but you know, if we're a couple guys talking about faith and why it's important to you, you know, you you should have a full story. Yeah, you need to know who we are. You have the full story, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Uh before you just which I I would love it if you just basically took everything that we said as Bond. Um probably not gonna happen. The the fan duel on that is a pretty low, like probably negative 150. Yeah, but um, so yeah, I uh I got some questions for you. Now now that you've got you know I've kind of gotten to know you. If I'm if I'm a listener out there, I you know, I really kind of want to know what what does this mean? Because you're not in Scientology, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Uh, you know, you don't subscribe to uh the the religion of bass fishing, like you you've got some different things that you're subscribing to as we're talking about this faith thing. Yep. Alright, so there's there's there's guardrails, there's there's lanes that you're in and you're not you're not out of. So I'm gonna ask you. Um you believe that God came down to earth in the form of a baby born of a virgin? Yes. Alright, talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

That's pretty crazy. Um, well, it's in the Bible.

unknown 28:48

Right?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

Okay, yeah. And so let's just start there. Um, you know, I believe that the Bible's the word of God. Um, so you know, it's different authors, you know, people have all kinds of issues with that, and I'm totally fine with that. I I don't need to litigate it, right? Um we're gonna bookmark that exact thing for a future episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But that's what I believe. So if it's in the Bible, um, I believe it to be true, right? Right? Um and again, this is faith, right? It's not science. So there are things that we're not gonna understand, and maybe we've never seen again in society with anyone, but I'm still believing that it's true because it's in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

You believe that there is a man, a human being named Jesus Christ, and he walked the earth. Yes. And I think that's historical. We can kind of agree on that.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

It's as historical as George Washington. Right. Like he was here, people saw him, um, there were there's people who wrote about both of them, you know, right? There's no difference other than time.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Right. Yeah. But the things they wrote about were pretty significantly different. You believe that that Jesus Christ performed miracles like making blind people see and making lame people walk and raising people from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yes. Which is intense. Um, yeah. Um, but again, because there were witnesses. I mean, you know, like like back then, you know, they didn't have the internet, they didn't have cable, like they wrote everything down. And it's not like one guy wrote it down, or you see a story in, you know, one of the gospels, right, in the New Testament. There are all kinds of historians at that time that were capturing what was going on on a day-to-day basis, and different people captured the same stuff.

unknown 30:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

You know, um, so yeah, I I mean it it again, historic historically, it happened, there were witnesses, people captured it.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

So you believe that Jesus Christ died uh on the cross, was buried, and then rose from the dead.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yes. That's that's intense. It's intense and it's hard to swallow because uh I don't know about you. Like I don't know anyone else who's had that experience.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Right, yeah, the crux of our entire thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Exactly. Um but uh you know, just like we were talking about before, um there have been there were witnesses to all of this, right? There are witnesses to his crucifixion, there are witnesses that saw him being put in the tomb, big freaking boulder rolled in front of it, guards there, um and and then there were witnesses that saw him alive, groups, I mean hundreds of people over a 30-day period that saw him alive and saw him ascend into heaven. Right. So again, like none of this is fact, right? Like, like we can't say categorically this happened, but we can say, based on all the pieces of information that we can stitch together, that the most likely thing that happened is this, based on eyewitness reports and history.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

And you don't like I think it's fascinating to me that I can tell you exactly where I was when the Diamondbacks won the championship. I know for a fact you know where you were when the Cubs won the most recent World Series 100%. You have these memorable times in your life, and then from there you react to those times. Could you imagine something so significant in your life that you decided to just I mean, just go down a very painful road to be persecuted, right? But yet so driven and passionate to share this gospel. Holy cow.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Well, who are you referring to? All of the disciples. Okay, yeah, yeah, exactly. So that so that's the other piece, right? Like we have all these witnesses and everything, but then you look at after the fact, and the disciples went out and spread the word um knowing that they were in grave danger. I mean, they just saw Jesus, what he went through and was crucified. Um if if there was a shred of doubt in any of their minds, would they have chosen that pain and well when you and when you refer to the pain and struggle, what you're referring to is they all, for the most part, except maybe one, die a painful and brutal death. Lit on fire, lit on fire, beaten by lions and tigers, uh, heads cut off, skin, you know, um what's it called when they take your skin off your body? Yeah, deskin. Skin alive, skinned alive, horrific, boom, skinned alive, yeah, and crucified, and crucified upside down.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, like like you gotta really be passionate about something if you're willing to put up with that.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

And and passionate, I think, it goes beyond passion, right? Yeah. Why are you gonna put your life at risk um and your family at risk?

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Um committed and dedicated, yeah. In a way that that is just epic.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

So again, none of this is fact, but you put all that stuff together, and yeah, for me, like, yeah, that this is this is what I believe and why I believe it.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

So a couple things right there. I I I want to get this out, you know, in in the episode, because I think it's important for folks to know, you know, where we're coming from. But I also want to be really conscientious of not getting lost in the headline, right? Like, I think if you read the headline and you don't get into the richness of the story, you're missing quite a few details. And and the headline can be something that is misinterpreted or or uh it's just so um superficial, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Not that these things are superficial headlines, but they're not the entire story. There's so much more richness within the content. Because again, I'm hearkening back to you're an intelligent guy. You know, I'm a data guy. Like we're not just gonna flippantly believe these things without some kind of conversation and depth. Um, so I just want to highlight that. And then secondly, you know, as we're as we're entering into these things, that's our faith, right? Um logistics, semantics. And I don't want folks to get lost in all right, well, um you're losing your credibility immediately just because you're subscribing to this thing, because it's we're talking about more things like benevolence and true concepts of love, the the aspects of love that are sacrifice, forgiveness, which is I mean, just go there, uh you know, generosity, um true, like just uh acceptance of other people that is the these are concepts that you know throughout time and especially relevant today, like the that's where we're coming from.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Well, and again, this is what I believe, right? Right, and and when I talk about it, I can be intense, right? Because I believe it. But I don't expect you to believe it because I believe it.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

But if you do believe, and you're and you're like, wow, when you say it out loud like we just did, yeah, and and you're thinking to yourself, okay, did that really happen? Right. You know, we're putting a lot of we're putting a lot of stock into a book and a historical and and a and a and a and a god, that's that's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

And some folks are gonna have doubts. 100%, right? Absolutely. Um, and you know, not to like uh you know say just because uh two billion people in the world believe the same thing, right? Which is which is true. Like, okay, so there are two plus billion people. Um something like 60 plus percent of the American population believes in Jesus, okay? It doesn't make it right. Doesn't doesn't mean that it it's right, okay? But it's a piece of information that's interesting because everything you just laid out, all the questions you just asked me, that's a crazy story. That's an awful lot. We get that to that's an awful lot to bite off. Um but a lot of really smart, thoughtful, loving people have bowed off on it. So again, doesn't mean you should, but maybe it means, okay, I need to be why? Why?

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Okay, I got a great question for you along those same lines. So, what is your ulterior motive? What is your hidden agenda then? Because this this seems like we would be doing this podcast with some kind of underlying, some kind of uh subversive, all-empowering thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah. You know, it's um it's probably no different than anyone else that does a podcast. They have a subject that they're passionate about, that they care about, that they think is interesting, maybe other people think it's interesting, and they want to share and they want to provide information, right? That's it. No, no hidden agenda. You know, like I jokingly asked you before, how many people you want to how many people do you want to convert? Right, exactly. You know, um, you know, and you said zero, and I agree, like if it happened, that'd be great, right? If some people um move closer to an understanding of you know something higher in this world than them, I think that's real strong and powerful. If people, you know, what I get from this from myself is I get peace, I get like a direction on how to live my life, you know. Anything in the Bible, you know, I can go there for almost anything I'm going through and find an answer. Right? Um try to love others. None of that's bad. You know, try to serve others, be generous. Amen. None of that is bad, and and and and so I want to share that with people. Um, you know, yeah, I'm I'm not sharing my faith. We're sharing hope.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Oh gosh, exactly. And and oh okay, let's bookmark that because I want to go right back to that distinction later, which is uh language-wise, is a huge, huge deal. I will say this though, that we do want to create a room, a forum where folks can do something which I think is not common out in the world today, which is have the freedom to doubt. We we invite your skepticism, right? We invite your conversations, yeah. Not with an ulterior motive to have an outcome that we have desired, yeah, but with the opportunity to say, hey, I have some problems with what you're saying. And I have some problems with what your your religion is out in the world today in a relevant way, and we want to take that and then say, okay, thanks for asking the question, let's talk about it. In an open form discussion, without necessarily wagging fingers or telling you how to think. As a cop, um, if if I made an arrest, uh I had to I had to work that case, and I had to make sure that everything that I was doing was solid. Because should the person that I arrested go to court and in court, you know, they were defending themselves and I was on the stand and needed to be challenged, you know, if I did everything the right way, then I was happy to talk about it. I was happy to have that discussion in a courtroom. I didn't fear what what was about to happen because if if you violated the law and you broke it and I and I took away your freedoms as a result of that, and then it and it and you were convicted, if I did my part the right way, it wasn't about what I felt. It wasn't about you know my my gut, it was about the facts. And I had no problem being challenged about those things, and I truly believe the same here.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Um and it's not challenge, like let's argue about it, and or challenge and and have us prove our case. Right. I have no interest in that, right? Right, that's not what it's about. I will share my experience, share my thoughts, um, point you in a direction where you can do your research as well. Um, and that's it. Like this isn't, and I don't mean to be contentious, this is not a Charlie Kirk thing, right? Where, you know, we're gonna argue with you and and try to make you look stupid and try to bring you on our point. First of all, I can't do that, right? I'm not smart enough to do that. Um all what I can do is speak from my heart on what I believe, why I believe it, and how it affects my life.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I mean, I I I love that you bring up his his name because I think that our listeners are are kind of hearkening back to that. And yeah, that's that's that's a great point. I think that's a fantastic point. As as was the point that you brought up about the differentiation between sharing your faith and sharing your hope. It might seem like a s like like both of those things are the same, but they're they're not. There is such a distinction.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Yeah, and I'm gonna uh I gotta own that I didn't come up with that. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Neither of us did.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Larry and I were we go to the same church and we were at church this weekend, and the message one of the things we took away independently from each other from the message was that um, you know, we are not called to share our faith. We're called to share our hope. Who doesn't want hope? Everyone wants hope. And you should want hope, right? And it's gonna mean different things to different people. Um but I can share how the way I've lived my life, try to live my life, and with faith in Jesus being at the center of that, every day gives me hope. Yeah, and that's a that is a a freeing, amazing thing. That, you know, if I can pass that on to other people, then that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

It's not about cramming facts down your throat or reciting Bible verses to you.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Or or even yeah, trying to get you to agree to uh our version or our our side of the story, you know. Not at all. It it it's about um hoping that's not that's not great English, right? Hoping hoping that that that people can have more hope from this journey. Yes, because in my mind, uh hope equals peace, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Okay, uh we got a little bit of business to do, uh, and we're gonna just kind of tease some future episodes here. Uh I I think it's uh absolutely authentic, and right in our wheelhouse, we we dealt with recovery. So uh talking about that relationship to recovery and our faith. Uh at the same time, we're we're not gonna pull any punches, we're gonna talk about some pretty significant cultural issues, uh our faith up against things like you know, um, you know, same-sex relationships, um you know, right to life. I think these are things that that uh are real out there.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

Well, and they're and they're like they come up all the time, right? Like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? We're you know, we we want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

We're not turning a blind eye.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

What else you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Um, you know, I want to get into uh just kind of the Bible um and how you can use it to learn about Jesus, right? And I and I think it it is a it's a complicated, um, you know, it's hard to my experience was not when I when I many, many years ago tried to pull the Bible off the shelf a few times and got the King James Version and had no idea there were other versions, so yeah, not user-friendly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we want to touch on that. Um this whole idea of you know, if there's a God, why do bad things happen?

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Oh right? So, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Comes up all the time. Um, you know, and obviously we're gonna talk more about just Jesus, who he was, who he said he was, you know, and his life, and why um, at least for us, you know, he's someone worth following.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

Yeah, that that relationship is paramount to this entire thing.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

And that's just like a tip of the iceberg, right? Like uh, we're just getting started. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh, but for today, why don't we uh why don't we wrap this bad boy up? Thank you so much for taking the time and joining us.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

And take care of yourselves, guys. Peace out.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Hey, thanks for hanging out with us. Wherever you are with Faith, whether it's curious, skeptical, or just tired, we're glad you're here. And if this stirred up thoughts or questions, don't rush past him. Just sit with him. We'll keep the conversation going.