Life After the Closet
Life After the Closet explores what happens after we say the words ‘I’m gay’...and real life keeps going. From messy healing and identity shifts to joy, love, humor, and growth, this podcast dives into the raw, honest, and often hilarious stories of gay life beyond the coming-out moment.
Life After the Closet
Leaving the Church: Caleb's Story of Self-Discovery After Religion
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Caleb shares how he grew up in a strict, Bible-based Christian church, attending multiple services weekly, discouraged from outside relationships, and not celebrating holidays (except Thanksgiving). He left the church because the lifestyle felt controlling, which led to excommunication from the church and major family estrangement. He discusses childhood shame, “praying away the gay,” finding chosen family and acceptance, and holding a complicated but ongoing belief in God.
Caleb, thanks so much for being here because when we talked, your story is not uncommon. It is not an uncommon story, but everyone's experience with growing up in a religious household, it's unique. It's different. And your story is very unique. And I can't wait to dive into it. So thanks so much for being here. Caleb, let's start off with talking a little bit about your life, your childhood, what things looked like before you came out as a closeted gay man that was also raised in a religious background. Yeah. So I grew up in almost like a big family.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there were five of us. Five siblings or five total? Five five total. Five total. Okay. Yeah. So I had for a while, it was just my older brother, me, my younger sister. And then like eight or nine years later, you know, my younger brother came. And we were very into church. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, what religion?
SPEAKER_01So it's non-denominational Christian, but it's very Bible-based. And, you know, we have kind of like other religions, you know, we have a prophet, and the prophet, you know, explained a lot of extra things and really, you know, helped to create a lot of the rules, I guess, that we had. And it was a great childhood. I'll say that. Like, I actually had a great childhood. My parents were amazing people. Yeah. I grew up in Tucson. And, you know, we went to church three times a week. Three times a week. Wow. Sunday morning. Extra credit. I know. That's not a vote anymore now. I racked up enough extra credit. I'm good. Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. Okay. And then you also participated in things like the children's choir and stuff like that. So there were extracurricular activities tied to going to church. Gotcha, gotcha. You know, some of that took place on Saturdays or Fridays or Thursdays. And I mean, like I said, it was a great childhood. I was the middle, I am the middle child. Oh, I'm the middle child. Oh, we need to unpack more things. There's a little bit, there's a little bit to unpack there as well, for sure. And my older brother was incredibly smart, like intelligent, smart, which I think caused a little bit of riff between him and I and the way that you know he was treated and the way that I was treated. And not that we were treated unfairly, but you know, it just he was the smart one.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's understandable. Like, you know, there's always a favorite. Like I was the favorite of my parents. So, you know, it's the curse I bear being the youngest child.
SPEAKER_01So my younger brother is a favorite right now, too. And I think there was a lot of expectation that we would follow in the same kind of footsteps. Yeah. And I mean, I I think I'm smart, but I just wasn't at his level. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, so there was already a lot of angst, or you know, maybe a little bit of competitiveness, feeling like you have to live up to some sort of expectation from a young age. Right. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So growing up and being so close to the church, you were only like, I wouldn't say allowed, but highly recommended to hang out with just people from the church. Yeah. And so it was a very equally yoked. Yes. So it was a very close community. Yeah. And so what's interesting is that my mom's side of the family was part of the church. Most of them. I would say most of her family was part of the church, but none of my dad's family was. So I actually grew up not very close at all to my dad's family. Like I saw his mom, my grandma, maybe twice a year. Yeah. The cousins through that side of the family, not very close. So now I'm a lot closer to them. Okay. But growing up for like 25, 26 years, we hardly saw each other. Yeah. But my mom's side of the family, we saw them a lot. So we did a lot of the activities with them and holidays. And that was another thing. We did not celebrate any holidays except Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_00Wait, so you weren't Jehovah's Witness? We're not Jehovah's Witness. Interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So just Thanksgiving.
SPEAKER_00As you're talking, I know you said you're non-denominational, but in my head, I'm like, wait, that sounds like Mormonism. Wait, that sounds like Jehovah's Witness.
SPEAKER_01Now when I tried to explain it, I'm like, it's a little bit apostolic and a little bit Mormon, a little bit Jehovah's Witness. Like there's so many. No, we made it that you guys made it your own.
SPEAKER_00Literally. So when did you start becoming aware of your own sexuality? How did that start to come about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that was probably my later teens. Okay. Because even in, I remember like in elementary school and in middle school, like I had girlfriends. Yeah. You know, to me it was normal. Like I felt like I was doing normal things, you know. But at the same time, I remember actually in I think it was seventh or eighth grade, one of my close friends, her brother, he was older than her, he was gay. She asked me one time, she was like, Hey, so I just I don't want to offend you, but like my brother's gay, and I was just wondering. And so clearly I wasn't hiding it that well. I denied it. You know, I'm like, oh my gosh, you're crazy.
SPEAKER_00That's when your voice went an octavo right of no, I'm straight. Of course I'm straight.
SPEAKER_01So, no, I would say later teens where I felt like I, you know, knew this about myself secret. Like there was nobody I could talk to about it, nobody I could get advice from. And preachings on those three times a week services, yeah, was very anti-homosexual.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, did they do a lot of preachings on homosexuality? Yes, but there was nobody out in the church. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If there was anybody gay in the church, nobody knew about it. It wasn't as if we were talked about like there was people in it, it was more like that happens outside of the church. Yeah, which is why even when I started like messing around with guys secretly, I almost didn't feel like it was I was doing something wrong because I the importance of the church, the teachings was like men and women don't do anything together unless they're married. Yeah, like that was the we weren't even allowed to date. Like, if you wanted to get married to, you know, obviously marry a woman, you had to court her through her father and her family, and like the pastor was involved, and it was like a whole thing. So me doing the secret and with people that were not associated with the church at all, I kind of felt like, well, I'm I'm not really doing anything wrong.
SPEAKER_00When you told me that, I thought that was so interesting because you're like, okay, yeah, we were taught that you know, men and women having pre-mergal sex or whatever is wrong. You're like, Well, I'm not with a woman, so it's almost like you found a loophole. I convinced myself I found a loophole for the gays, they'll find the loophole, they will find a way. So you said like later teens, like, give a number to that, like you know, 16 yeah, I would say probably senior year of high school. Yeah, yeah. Okay, and you said you were doing some things secretively. What did that life look like for you being in the church still, but also doing things secretly? Well, I didn't actually mess around with a guy until after high school. Did you ever have anyone proposition you in school? Like, did you ever have a guy like which I didn't either? And I know this is gonna sound like I don't know, like messed up or whatever, but I'm like, I kind of wish I had because I maybe would have come out earlier. You know, like no, I was so nervous to ever show my sexuality that I was like, if a guy had actually made a move on me in high school, would I have done something? Right. And then would that have sped up my realization? Like, hey Queen, right, you you gay.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, no, that never happened. Like I said, it wasn't until after high school. And obviously, we didn't have like social media back then. Oh, thank god, right? Right. I know. So kind of being exposed in that way wasn't really a thing. You know, I mentioned I like I went on Craigslist and like the man. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, when you told me about Craigslist, like that is a blast from the past. Yeah, that's how I met my first hookups. Wow. So when did that happen? The whole Craigslist stuff. Was that around the same time or a little older? It was a little old. I mean like 1920, 21. Okay, for sure. And remind me, when did you come out? How old were you? So I didn't actually come out until I was like 28. Wow. Yeah. So you started doing some things 1920, but you didn't come out. Talk to us a little bit about that. Like, why the long wait? What was going on in those years?
SPEAKER_01So I was still part of the church. I didn't officially leave until I was 25. Okay. I even took some time to be comfortable with myself and understand who I was and what I was presenting to the world. And so it took a while for me.
SPEAKER_00You needed to go through your like dark night of the soul or journey through the woods or whatever metaphor they use. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And what's interesting, we can get into this later, of course. But I, in leaving the church, like I didn't really even have to explain to my family, like, oh, well, I'm gay, so I'm leaving. I just decided to leave and that cut off everything. So there wasn't like, oh, he's leaving and he's gay. It was just like he's leaving, so now, you know, we're not gonna have a relationship with him anymore.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So yeah, I have two questions. One is since it wasn't because you were gay that you left the church, what was it that made you leave the church at all?
SPEAKER_01I didn't want that lifestyle. It was too constricting on what I wanted to do. You know, I wanted to go on vacations, like you could never miss church service. Yeah. So that Sunday, Wednesday, you were never missing. So there was no way to like explore the world. I wanted to go to college out of state, not an option. Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Even if there was a church in that state. No.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Because we didn't really like associate ourselves. Like there were other churches that are like us, but the mentality in the church was like ours was the one. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I'm sure it was just your church that has that.
SPEAKER_01No other churches have that belief at all.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. He said we sarcasm.
SPEAKER_01Right. I don't want to talk ill about any of my parents, still go there. My everyone in my family still goes. But there is a little bit of a superiority complex that they have. Yeah. And you know that, and that's how I was raised as well. So coming out of this, I thought I was better than people, and I thought that I was better than gay people. You know, talk to us a little bit about that. So, yeah, like my parents, when they would see like a gay person or when we're out to dinner as a family, I would get so uncomfortable because I knew how badly my parents would talk about them. And again, it wasn't like trash talking, but it was like, oh, like, you know, beneath us. Yeah. And so I would in my mind, I'm like, why do you have to be so gay? Like to telling myself to the other person, you know.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha. Like, tone it down. And then people won't make fun of you, you know. And now here I am. Well, and that's kind of what's funny too. When I came out, or right before, I was talking to my friend Jody, and I remember telling her, and she still makes fun of me for this to this day. I said, Okay, I think I'm gay. I think I'm gonna come out as gay, but I don't want to be like too gay. Right, right. And now, like I said, years later, every time I mean she sees me in like some rainbow speedo or some bullshit, she's like, but it's a good thing you're not too gay. And I'm like, shut up, you bitch.
SPEAKER_01And I think like now, where I'm at in my life now, and even kind of getting to this point, I realize how how confident those people were, yeah, and how much mental strength they had. Because even like being gay is a lot more accepted now than it was 20 years ago. And I was 17 20 years ago. Yeah. And so for those people to already be comfortable with who they are and be willing to express themselves naturally, I have to go back and give them kudos for that and say, you know what, like, wow.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's even still true to this day. Like, let's be honest, like, that there's no one size fits all for a gay man, like just like for straight people. Yeah, and every time I see someone that is more on the flamboyant side or whatever, I always think to myself, you know what? Good for them. Yeah. Because we all share one thing in common as gay men. We once were not living a life authentically ourselves. Right. So when you see someone that is, you know what kind of freedom that brings, you know what relief that brings. I remember doing things when I was a kid that were like, oh my gosh, you're so gay. And I always remember thinking, like, if my parents or friends ever found out that I did this. I mean, even as simple as like, I took the bed sheet off my bed and made it into like, you know, a fabulous, glamorous dress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course. We all did. Towel for hair.
SPEAKER_00I actually remember my sister yelled at me once, and I don't know if it was because of this or just I was being obnoxious, but because I put a towel on my head and recorded myself on the family recorder pretending to be Faith Hill. And I was giving a production for I was like, oh my gosh, looking back, I was like, you little gay boy.
SPEAKER_01I know. And I really think like I've never actually had this conversation with my mom, but I think our moms like no.
SPEAKER_00They they you know they have to have an intuition. I remember my mom, my dad asked my mom, how long have you known?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And she said, since grade school. Yeah, but it's like for whatever reason, they think it's a phase, they try to cover it up or deny it, or whatever it might be. But mothers have that intuition.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so too. And like I've never had the conversation with her. I think I will at some point because I, you know, I'm actually starting to have a little bit more of a relationship with my parents, which is I'm gonna ask you, what does your relationship look like with your family now? Yeah, so my younger brother and I are very close. He's I think nine years younger than me. We're incredibly close. And we came to that place about, I would say, about four or five years ago.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And my older brother, I haven't talked to him in 12 years. He has five kids. My sister, I haven't talked to her in 12 years, she has five kids. 12 years. Wow. I know it's been a while. My parents, we would exchange like a birthday text throughout the last 12 years, essentially. But within the last six months, we've really kind of grown our relationship a little bit. They visited me, I visited them. Okay. And so I had some health complications that really kind of push that relationship together. So I think that one of the conversations I had with them was like, what is this? Because, you know, for the past 12 years, we've had little to no communication. And what do I expect after? We can get into it and you know, the conversation at a later point. But I guess a little bit of me was worried, am I getting you for a certain time period and then it's gonna go back to the way it was? Yeah. And I'm fine either way because I have healed myself to the point where I'm like, if you're in my life, great. If you're not in my life, that's okay too. Yeah, I've made amends. I made amends.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay, so one question before we move on is I wanted to ask you. You had some strife with your family. You even use the word excommunicated, yeah, right. So did that tension and strife happen, do you think, because you left the church or because you came out later on? Where did the definitely from leaving the church? From leaving the church.
SPEAKER_01And it wasn't just me, like that was the way things were. If you left the church, you were excommunicated from the church and from your family. Okay. Right. And I mean, as long as your family was true to the beliefs of the church and family like that?
SPEAKER_00They were. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Some families, you know, weren't as much, so they would kind of still have a relationship with their kids that may have left. For the most part, I would say 90% of the families completely excommunicated their kids. And a lot of those kids ended up in really bad situations.
SPEAKER_00Um, because yeah, like you're cut off from what you knew love was or your support system.
SPEAKER_01So I can understand. Yeah, you're you're cut off, and the church really encouraged like homeschooling and not going to public school and not going to college. Because we don't want to fill your mind with sinful things. Because otherwise, because that's what will make us gay. And my parents, thank God, were like very pro-education, gave us the option if we wanted to go to college, we could, and I did. My older brother did as well. And so when I decided it was time for me, like, hey, I'm getting out of here, like I planned it for about six months. Yeah. And I had to like save money and find an apartment for myself and just get myself even mentally to a place where I knew I was ready to make this decision. Thankfully, I had my education to fall back on, and it's helped me get to this place. But a lot of these kids who left, they turned to drugs or they got themselves locked up or just in bad situations.
SPEAKER_00So sad. I know you know it too. It's just like these parents, it just absolutely blows my mind that these religious, zealot parents put this quote, faith or I'm gonna call it religion because I think there's a difference, but this religion above loving your child, they cast their child out in some capacity, and then you know, of course the kid turns to unhealthy things, and it's I just it's just blows my mind. I can't understand that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it it was a struggle for sure. I remember actually it was about a month before I had decided this is I'm leaving. My mom had gotten a new car and she was excited about it, and she was like, Oh, do you want to drive my car? She was trying to be nice to me because she could tell my disposition, my attitude, my mental something was off was off. Yeah, and I was like, no, I had to get myself to, and my mom's my best friend, like I love my mom growing up. I had to get myself to a place mentally where I just did not care about my family anymore because I knew that once I left, they were not gonna be there for me. Yeah, and it was hard. And I remember I cried for months and months after leaving. I didn't feel like it was the wrong choice, I just felt alone. I didn't have support. And what do I do? Who do I turn to? I had some very close friends, but even them, you know, they were doing their own lives and doing their own things.
SPEAKER_00Because you were a shelter, you sheltered back, you were only hanging out around people that were in the church, right? Did you ever connect or reconnect with people you grew up with that have also left? I have one or two people.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so it wasn't like a bunch, but you've had no, and I feel like a part of me would like to, yeah, because we obviously have that in common. But then when I have connected with the one or two people that I have, it kind of led to a little bit of drama. And because you know how the church is, like people we all still have people tied back to the church. Yeah, somehow information gets back, and yeah, and then you have you know, my younger brother who's still part of the church, but is very close to me, reaching out and saying, Hey, like, why are these people saying this? And I'm like, oh. You're like, I'm just gonna say, never mind. Yeah, let's just let's just say that. Like I left for a reason.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let me no longer have that in my life. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about, because we kind of talked about a little bit about, you know, there's these defining moments when we were kids that, especially as gay kids, yeah, our families reacted to in a negative way that kind of stick in our brain. You had a couple and you mentioned, share a little bit about a few of the experiences you had where a family member kind of called you out or treated you badly because you were doing something that was gay appearing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, like two instances. One, I was much younger, I think probably like five. Okay, maybe going into six. And I was at my grandma's house with my mom, and uh, my uncle was there as well. We did a lot of things at my grandma's house, and I remember she had this really long hallway. Oh my gosh, see the runway stage. We see our runway exactly, and I had put on her shoes. Shoes or heels? Well, so the women weren't allowed to wear like heels, but it had a heel, it had you know it had enough heel. Yeah, we can pretend enough to make the fantasy alive, yeah. And so I remember I was walking down because I liked the click-clack, you know, down the course, the that stiletto sounds like ASMR or whatever. And think about that. Like, I'm five years old. I'm obviously not influenced by I didn't have no TV growing up, yeah. So it's not like you know, I didn't get it from Devil Works Property. Like there was nowhere for me to get that from. And I remember my uncle scolded me and made me feel awful. Like, put us in that situation. Do you remember exactly what he said? Or it was along the lines of men don't do that, we don't do that, take those shoes off. I remember one of my aunts was there too. She was like, Oh, he's just playing around. He's like, No, no, we can't let that happen, you know. And to this day, I can remember the way it makes me feel. Yeah, I can't really remember the exact words he said or who was in the room, but yeah, it broke me. Like something inside me just completely broke me.
SPEAKER_00And you said, like, even to this day, you still I still can feel that emotion. Does that get triggered randomly, or does that get triggered like wearing heels?
SPEAKER_01I mean, let's be honest, we're still wearing heels and wigs. No, if I think about it, I can still take myself back there. But the other instance was this was probably about six years later. Maybe I was in my early teens, and one of my cousins was at my house, and she was much younger, and she was obviously repeating things she had heard, you know, from in her family, and she's like, Oh, are you a frescoline? A frescoline. And that was a word that I don't know if this is like a a word that everybody uses in the Spanish or the Latin community, but my family used that, and that was like what they would call a gay person. Okay, right. And so I knew exactly what she was talking about, and I don't think she understood what she was asking, honestly. Like, I think she was that young that she was just repeating something that she had heard in their family conversation, and I remember again that like jolted me.
SPEAKER_00You're like, oh my gosh, yeah, I thought I was hiding it so well.
SPEAKER_01But at the I didn't really even think I was gay at that point, I just was you know, myself, but clearly it wasn't me, you know. That it wasn't it was obvious to other people. I remember feeling like so ashamed and I was so bothered by it, and I kind of even I think from that point stopped hanging out with my aunt and her family as much as the cousin, the daughter of the uncle. No, oh okay. So my mom has a lot of brothers and sisters, okay. So it was the same family. It was not the same exact family, but we were all still my mom's one of my mom's siblings, and I knew at that point that it wasn't her talking, it was my uncle, my aunt talking about this and having that kind of idea or sentiment about me. And so that kind of made me a little bit bitter towards them because I was like, obviously, I didn't want to be that, I didn't think I was that, you know, but I was giving off that energy.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's also like you know, you don't want to be the subject of family talking in a negative way. And when your family's so big, like I I can relate as well. My family, we're a Catholic background, so mom has nine brothers and sisters, dad has eight brothers and sisters, huge family. And and I don't know if you ever felt this, but you're like, you see how they talk about other people's family, so you're like, oh my god, what are they saying about me? You know, are they talking behind my back? So, like, it's it's a it's a jarring situation.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00I want to go back to the exchange with the uncle because both my exes are from the Latino community. Traditionally, men, regardless of your community, typically don't deal with homosexuality very well. I mean, we're getting better, but you know, there's a lot of strife there. But in the Latino community, specific Latin community, it's I understand it's even more like what's the word? Machismochismo, yeah. Did so you got the religious element on top of you being gay, and then you've also got being in Latin community. Like, how did that make it uniquely different of a struggle for you? Or did it?
SPEAKER_01I don't think it was as much as uh people might expect from my experience. And I say that because I think the church really took precedence. So, you know, being a man of God or being a you know someone respected in the church was more important than being like machismo in the Latin community. Also, my parents, their first language was Spanish. Both of them and they learned English growing up in the school system. They did not teach us Spanish. So all my brothers and sisters and I do not speak Spanish fluently. So we didn't really grow up in a very like Latino household. I'll be honest. I don't know a lot of the customs. We did not listen to any type of Mexican music. You know, we sang Spanish church songs. Yeah. But that was really the extent of it. So I really don't think that that affected me. I mean, that thankfully, because that would add another layer of it's like an onion.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be a crazy onion. Oh my gosh. For my religious background, I mean, I it took me forever. I was raised Catholic, but at 16 years old, I decided I wasn't Catholic. I was just Christian. You know, I just wanted to go mainstream Christian. And I was Christian from 16 to 27. And I was a devout Christian. But that being said, like I always knew there was something different in me. And so I tried all kinds of ways to get rid of the, you know, because when you're raised to think something's wrong, like homosexuality, at least in my case, I was like, well, if it's wrong and I believe in God, there must be a solution. There must be a way to fix it. And so what were did you try to fix your homosexuality in any sort of way? Yeah, I mean like praying the gay.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't like anything official, but yeah, I would pray for it to leave or for me to not be this way because I wanted what I thought would be a traditional life. I wanted to get married like the other guys in the church do and have a family. That was just the expectation. There was really no alternative, especially like I mentioned, there was nobody else in the church who was gay. So it's not like I had the role model in the church and be like, oh, you know, I can still be here and be a gay man. I know they don't give you that option.
SPEAKER_00No, it's one or the other. And that's actually, I hope to one day dedicate an episode to that. But this whole idea of, well, you're either Christian or you're gay. Choose. And I'm like, no, like this whole I have to choose spirituality over sexuality, like that's a choice. Like I have to make one decision. It's just asinine. In hindsight, when I was in it, it it made sense. That's what caused a lot of the stress. But yeah, you have to, you know, there is no gay role model in the church. No, at least back then.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I mean, I know for sure the church to this day, that church still doesn't have anybody.
SPEAKER_00I'm a C and E Christian. The Christmas and Easter Christian because my family, you know, guilt me to go. And sometimes I go, sometimes I don't. But you better believe when I go to those services. Oh, I open a grinder. Imagine. I want to see who's on the grid. Stall number three is the profile. Maybe in the back room. Yeah. In the rectory.
SPEAKER_01I did try to pray. Like I did have that ambition to do that. It never left. And that's not to say to anybody that God doesn't answer prayers. It's not really 100%. It just it wasn't, it didn't go away, you know.
SPEAKER_00Well, I feel like in hindsight, I often like to give God a like a sassy attitude because I really do feel like, you know, he's everything. And so like when I finally accepted myself after trying to pray away the gay for so many years, I feel like God was finally, finally, bitch, like you come to accept it. God, like me. Right, right. Because yeah, you're it's like I feel like he was like, Why are you praying for something you can't fix? Why are you praying for me to take away something that is it it's you? Yeah, it's how you're made.
SPEAKER_01Well, and we were, I mean, the preaching was that it was it's a demon spirit. Yeah, you know, you ideally you should be able to relieve yourself of a demonic spirit, right? And so that's you know, why I was like, Well, you know, let me get rid of this. I mean, it it just never went away. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you came out, remind me it was like 28, 29. So tell us a little bit about that. Like after coming out, what did you feel? What was going through your mind? Yeah. What did your life look like?
SPEAKER_01Well, what's really funny is that I I met this guy and I was like obsessed. Because of the guy. I feel like not that one guy that when we came out and we became obsessed with. Yep. That and because of him, I decided like I was like, okay, I'm telling people about this. You know, I told my very close friends, I took my childhood friend to dinner, and I said, I'm sorry you stood up for me so many times in high school, but I have to tell you she was fine with it. Yeah, I was really into this guy, and he it was that that really caused me to like be publicly okay. Yeah, I hated saying I could not for years come say I was gay.
SPEAKER_00Like I was I like guys. Do you know what's funny? I'm glad you mentioned that. Because what's funny is even today, I've been out for almost nine years now, even today, it's still so difficult for me to go up to a stranger and say, you know, I it's not like in my introduction, but to say I'm gay. Yeah, like because we were raised, that's such a negative connotation. So yeah, I I I have the exact same feeling.
SPEAKER_01I struggle with it, like you said, I still even struggle with it a little bit now, but definitely back then, yeah, came out to the close people around me, and then from that point, it kind of just snowballed into the next boy, and then the next boy just kept tumbling down that hill of glitter. At that point in my life, though, I had met some really wonderful people who I consider to be my like chosen family, and they rallied around me. Like I truly to this day believe I was placed in their care and protection to be able to come out and to five. Because I mean, the sh I she's not I mean, obviously, she's not my mom, but the mom of the family that took me in, she's like, I always wanted a gay son. I was so mad that my own son's not gay.
SPEAKER_00Don't you love that? Like, I mean, I love that. Yeah, I I used to be heavily involved in youth group when I was in the church. So I did high school Bible studies and me leading them. And so obviously I got to know the parents very well. And so when I came out, I mean, a lot obviously a lot of people just for whatever reason, you know, they just don't reach out. But there were some moms specifically that were just so happy for me, and that was really healing because in our brains, I don't know about you, in our brains, you just kind of basically say, Okay, once they know I'm gay, that's a relationship gone. They're gonna think terrible of me, they're going to turn their backs on me. And I did have that. I had that in a couple of instances. But when you get the opposite, that not only do they not do that, but they love you and celebrate you still authentically, because I always hate the I don't love the sin, but I love you. I hate that. I'm like, bitch, don't give me that. Like, no, like I hate, I think that's bullshit. So it's nice to kind of have those positive people in your life that can just truly you feel fully seen. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they, I mean, once I had come out to them for years after following, they would come to gay clubs with me and to brunch and you know, do whatever I wanted them to participate in. You're like, we're gonna warm up right to the orgy situation.
SPEAKER_00You're not invited to that, but no, they they were great, they loved it. They love drag bingo. Right. Because let's be honest, like gays, we know how to have fun, we know how to keep life in.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Well, then when I after coming out, like I hardly ever went to a straight club after that. Because I'm like, what's the point? Why would you?
SPEAKER_00If I'm involved, we're doing gay stuff. If I'm in charge of the itinerary, it is not going to Old Town Scottsdale. No, no. I went there one time with my friend because you gotta compromise and whatever. And then we went to this fun club, and I was just looking around, there was women everywhere. I'm like, this is not my vibe. Yeah, I've had like a good time once or twice, but it's not a regular thing. I would never do that. And I try to dance in a way that's very obvious. This, this, this guy gay. He's gay. Don't even try to whatever. Well, so what does faith look like to you today? I know we kind of talked a little bit how you still have elements of your faith, even though you walked away from your church from when you were growing up. What do you believe? What how does that look when you're trying to combine that faith element with your sexuality?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I feel like I have a very complicated relationship with God and like with faith in general because I, you know, for 25 years, I was so dedicated to this church, this religion, and it being the sole source of a relationship with God. And so even now I almost feel like a little bit imposter trying to be a gay person, but then also trying to have a relationship with God. I am I think that's part of it. The other part of it is like I've done so many years of this, like I just don't want it to influence my life anymore, which is sad because I think that faith can actually be a really beautiful thing. Yeah. And I think a lot of people are mentally healed in a lot of ways by tapping into their faith, and there's great community behind that. That just wasn't my experience. And to this day, it's complicated. Yeah, it's complicated. I don't know where I will find myself. I think it's really just out of sight, out of mind for me right now. I don't put myself into the church situation, I don't really think about it, and so I'm just kind of living my life, you know, with no religious direction. Not I'm I don't consider myself like an atheist or anything.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna ask you. If someone were to ask you, hey, are you Christian? Are you an atheist? Are you agnostic? Yeah, what would you answer to?
SPEAKER_01I would say I I believe in God. Yeah. And I almost want to say I'm spiritual, except I'm not doing anything to like consider myself spiritual. I believe it's there. Yeah. And I there's a little tire of me, I think still, that I deal mentally with the church and you know what I was taught and who I am now, and am I even accepted by God? And I know people listening will probably be like, of course you are. Yes, yes, you know, God, but I have to mentally get myself to that place, and I'm just not there yet.
SPEAKER_00You're just and that's totally fine. I love how you said it's complicated because it is. You know, we were raised in a black and white world where it was cut and dry, right? It was spelled out what's right, what's wrong. Anyone that has lived any sort of considerable years on this earth knows nothing is that simple. In fact, I would argue nothing is really that simple. There is a lot of gray, and I think it's great to I think whether you believe in God or whatever, I think God honors when we say, I don't know. I'm open to things and I'm trying to be the best version of myself, but I just don't know because you do have a lot of things from your childhood kind of tied up. Like, for example, for me, so I don't usually say God, I always say the universe. I'm like, oh, the universe gave me this sign, the universe said this. Now, when I say that, I know deep down I actually am talking about God because for all intents and purposes, if someone were to say, hey Matt, what are you? I'd say Christian, just to keep it simple, because more or less I feel like that. But I always tell them, I literally, I said, I'm Christian, but there's a big butt right after it. I'm like, I am not a white American evangelical asshole. That's the best way I like I can literally add like because that's what people think. Yeah, and is that all Christians? No, like I know a lot of people that are still at the church that I grew up in, and they're salt of the earth, amazing people. They dare I say they they get it, yeah, you know, but obviously there's a lot that don't. So, but I say universe instead of God because I actually get triggered when I hear God, when I hear the name Jesus. I Jesus is even worse. It's awful because I'm like, hello, that's what the faith is based around. Right. But if someone says, you know, Jesus, this, that, and the other, I'm like, oh Jesus. Like, I can't, I have a trigger. Yeah. And I need to work, I don't know how to work through that. But the nice thing is, at least for me, I'm like, God's like, look, we're gonna take this one day at a time, one step at a time. He's like, you can call me whatever you want. Like you can call me, hey, queen. And I'm sure someone listening to this podcast that is super religious is like turning.
SPEAKER_01I agree. I mean, even there are some sacrilegious moments that make me very uncomfortable, you know. And even like a lot of people refer to the church I grew up in as a cult. Me hearing that, it still makes me feel very uncomfortable. Why? I think partially because everyone's still there that I, you know, my whole family is still there. So I'm I would be then admitting that they are part of this. And the other part is I don't want to blaspheme. Like, what if I am calling something that's truly of God a cult, you know? Yeah. So I I'm I'm imprisoned a little bit by my how I was raised.
SPEAKER_00Your old belief system. I was gonna ask, you know, and we don't want to make anything triggering on the podcast, but do you still have any fear, like, oh my gosh, maybe I am living in sin still, and maybe I am gonna be punished when I die? Like, do you have any of those anxieties or triggers or anything like that?
SPEAKER_01A little bit I do. Yeah. And I I think I've just convinced myself to accept it.
SPEAKER_00Right. There's gonna be a slide of baby oil right out of hell.
SPEAKER_01I mean I'm going face first. I mean, I I guess I believe that hell's real and I believe that heaven's real, you know. And a part of me is like, you're probably going to hell. Yeah. I I couldn't really tell you, to be honest. I couldn't articulate exactly, you know, what's gonna happen. I don't think any of us can. I I just I hope that I'm not. You're like fingers crossed. But again, it's one of those things I'm like, I'm not gonna think about it. Yeah. Because I'm gonna die at some point, and there's nothing I can do about it. Everybody does, yep. So what are you gonna accept it as it comes, whatever happens.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything from your childhood, your faith, your church background that you still do carry with you in a positive sense? So it's something that you learn, something that you were taught that you're you know what that still resonates positively for me.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if there's one specific thing, but I will say I had an incredible childhood. I was raised, I think, very well. I had wonderful parents, and I think that caused me to be a very good person. I think for the most part, I try to be a good person. And so there are a lot of values that I hold that I think, and not to say that you had to be raised in church to hold these values, but yeah, I attribute them for my life due to the church, you know, very respectful of women, for example, and kind of composing myself in a certain way and making sure that I'm not making a fool of myself in public, you know. Um I miss that memo for not a bad thing, not a bad thing, but I think it just ties back into like you kind of had to be proper and had to be, you know. Yeah, so I would say those are kinds of the things that I've taken and allow myself to like celebrate from my upbringing, but most of the rest of it was not very good. Like, we're just gonna get rid of that. Yeah, yeah. I put TVs in my house, I did everything that oh man, you really are a sinner now.
SPEAKER_00Christmas tree, all of that. So it's funny, is a couple years ago I tried to read the Bible again. I was like, I just got to a point in my life where I'm like, hey, I spent so much time ignoring spirituality and ignoring my sexuality, that didn't work. But then I, you know, on the flip side, I was like, I spent all my time after coming out focused on the sexuality, no spirituality. And that didn't work for me either. So I was like, there's gotta be some sort of whatever. So the only thing I knew was obviously what I was raised with, and so I ripped out the Bible and I was like, ooh, can't do it. Too triggering, too triggering, because I would read verses that people would use against me, right, you know, for whatever reason. And so I had to close it. But there's always a couple things that I still carry with me that I still, and this is actually why I would still consider myself a man of faith. And so the the first one I always remember is Jesus saying, like, the measure you use against others will be used against you. And I'm always like, Well, I don't want to be judged, right? So I'm not gonna judge others, like I don't want that against me. And I also remember the verse where he basically is like, I wish you were hot or cold, but you're lukewarm and I spit you out of my mouth. And I take from that, like Jesus is like, God, universe, whatever. Like, bitch, stop being inauthentic. Like, okay, either be a nun because that's really what you are, right? Or be a flaming homo, but just whatever you are, like be you, yeah, be authentic, because I think what he can't stand is people that are living secret lives. Yeah. And so I I always hold on to that, and I like to encourage people that have been in a similar situation that we are honoring, if you believe it, we are honoring God by being our authentic selves. Yeah. And he's like, okay, we can deal with that. We can work with people that are authentic. So I would like to hold on to that. Pretty much a lot of other things, like Leviticus.
SPEAKER_01That's great. I mean, and what's interesting about the Bible, not to get too much into it, but I think you can really find a verse for any anything. And they do. They use it for the bad parts, like, you know, damning you to hell. But you could mean you could also use it against there's an episode in The West Wing where a reporter you remember that where she was asking the president about, I think it was about homosexuality, right? And he was like, Well, you know, I guess we can't play football anymore because we're touching the skin of a pig. And how much do you think I should sell my daughter for? She's almost 18. And the reporter was like, Okay. Your point is made, Mr. President. Right.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, you can use it both ways, I guess. Yeah. I know you came out at 28, 29, but did acceptance happen for you right away, or did it take a little while for you to fully accept that you're your authentic self? Like, what did that healing journey look like for you post-coming out?
SPEAKER_01It took a little, it took a while for sure. Because at first I was like, okay, well, it's about me liking a guy, or you know, me being into guys and you know going kind of crazy with the apps and the you know apps with this, you know, just monsterella sticks. Oh my god, I love that app. It did take a while. I couldn't call myself gay. I knew I was out, but I didn't want to say those words about myself. And when I started dating guys, I was like, well, I'm not kissing them in public. That's never gonna happen. So it did take a while. I think it was 30. I started dating a guy. He actually lived in Phoenix. I lived in Tucson, and so we would drive to see each other. And through that relationship, I really, I believe, found a lot of love from this person to me for the version that I was who I was.
SPEAKER_00Was there anything specific that jumps out in your head as an example of him showing love to you when you wouldn't have loved yourself for it?
SPEAKER_01I when I'm thinking of the relationship, it's interesting because since then I have dated different people, and I feel like that relationship taught me what it felt like to be loved. Yeah, but that didn't happen until I was out of it already. In hindsight, in hindsight, exactly. And he kind of got me into drag race and got me in talking with drag queens. I was terrified of drag queens. Really? Why terrified because I felt like they would be so fierce, they would give people I thought unnecessary attention. Like I don't want to be called out in a crowd. Like gotcha, you know, don't just let me slip his eye to the back. I'm an observer, right?
SPEAKER_00I'm an observer, exactly. And there's only two kinds of people in the world. Right. The ones you entertain and the ones who observe. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01And you were the second exactly. And so he really like helped me branch out into you know being a gay person and being comfortable with myself and hanging around other gay people. And so eventually when I moved to Phoenix, we were still together, and I was introduced to a bunch of people through him, a lot of his friends, and you know, getting myself really just involved with into the gay community. And that to me really helped me find acceptance. Yeah. And through that, I remember, you know, there were times where I would like go to bed and I'm like, I'm just genuinely happy with who I am. I love that. And that I never had felt that before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. And you know, that reminds me of something, the importance of authentic loving community. Because for many men, when they come out, they are cut off in some way, shape, or form from their past, their family, their friends. They might not be like outcast, like for example, I was never disowned, but you do have to leave something, yeah, and you feel that grief, and you're it's very much like I feel alone now, like I've left something, but what am I going to? And even though it feels great to be honest with yourself that you're gay, you're still kind of walking into a nebulous unknown territory, and you're like, all these gay men, like are you know, who's gonna who's gonna talk to me, like who's gonna accept me, who's gonna bring me in?
SPEAKER_01And you're doing that sometimes at 29, 30 years old. Oh my gosh, yeah. You know, you're not six or five years old anymore, yeah. Where you're on an even playing field and everyone's willing to be your friend, yeah. You know, when you're in your early 30s or like someone adopts me, please. I mean, I think it's harder for anybody to start friendships in their 30s, straight or gay, it doesn't really matter. And you know, as a gay person trying to find friends, like it I wouldn't say it was hard because people are always willing to hang out and do stuff, but then to like really create a community for yourself. I mean, you it took a minute to find that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything that you miss about the religious community that you were raised in that maybe is missing in your gay community?
SPEAKER_01I don't know if there's something specific missing wise. I guess this is the best example. I love Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving was my holiday because it was the only holiday we celebrated growing up. Hey, we get to get we can get turned right in your own way. Right. And it was always a big deal. Yeah, we would invite people from the church as well, like other families from the church. And so Thanksgiving was always 25-30 people at one house with a bunch of kids, and you're playing games and doing church activities, and then you usually end up someone's on the piano and you have a bunch of like singing people, very traditional. And so I think part of that I miss I miss being excited about Thanksgiving. Yeah, and there's just people in general outside of my church are not as excited about Thanksgiving, and I kind of feel like I've lost that a little bit. Yeah, you know, it's just another day, like now it's a filler holiday, whatever it's between Halloween and Christmas. And it used to be such a big holiday for me.
SPEAKER_00So I do miss that part of it. Yeah. For me, and I'm not saying this is widespread, I know it's definitely possible, but I know one of the things for me is even though I walked away from the little sea church, meaning like I don't go to church, I walked away from that, but I remember all the good times that we had, whether it was me with the students that I was leading, or whether it was me with peers, and we all had that faith together. So we'd go out to dinners together and all the things. And obviously, that's not to say I don't do that now. I still have dinner, but there was something very wholesome about we'd have a game night. Yeah. We would do things like we'd go out and do things outside the gay community, it's very big on the bar scene. And going to dances, like circuit parties, which there's nothing wrong with that. But I do sometimes kind of miss that element of community that is not necessarily based around well, alcohol needs to be involved. And I know that exists. That's not everyone's experience. That's maybe my experience over the years. And I'm learning to make my own community, but there is that element that I sometimes miss.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I never really got into that type of the gay community as much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because you seem to have a really good, solid, foundational community from what I've seen. Yeah. Great people in your life. And I knew too. Like if any of my friends are listening, I promise I'm not talking about you. But you know, it's helpful when you can find that great healthy community that is able to accept you in your true authentic gay self. Yeah. Yeah. Is there any religious triggers nowadays that if something happens, if you hear someone say, I know I mentioned a few of mine, but are there any for you that trigger something? If something mentions mentions a religious aspect?
SPEAKER_01I mean, like if someone talked about cults, I get a little bit tense because I'm like, well, you know, I I had experience in that.
SPEAKER_00So when you hear the word cult, you kind of Yeah. There's another word that sounds like cult. So like, what did you just say? Oh, right, cult. Yeah, got it, we'll give it back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't I don't like either of them. No, I I I think that's you know, definitely a trigger for me. And then just talking about like my experience with the church in general, I think I've mentioned this to you before. Like, I tend to get very, I think just protective over my experience and over the people that are still there. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I want them to live their life and be happy. Like they didn't cut me out because they hate me, they cut me out because they felt like that was the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's oh my gosh, that actually, I'm glad you brought that up because it's so hard to remember this, but I always remind myself, Matt, this is their way of acting in love. Yeah, it's it's awful. Yeah, you know, I wish they would realize it's actually not love, but in their own minds, what they think they're doing is loving. 100%. And I remember even I would always say I was fairly moderate to liberal by Christian standards. I was still a conservative, but in the church, I would be a little bit more lenient with certain things or had belief systems that weren't as rigid. But you know, that being said, it's like that I did things that in hindsight, like that was not loving. Yeah, that was not loving. And I wish I could go back or find those people and say, I'm so sorry. I actually have done that. I don't know if that is something you've ever done, but I actually had to go back and look some people up. I was like, you know, I I said this and you may not remember it, but I was like, I'm sorry. Like in hindsight, I'm sorry. I remember my I used to journal every day. Okay, and I wrote about my sister, and I wrote because she was, you know, getting into some things that she shouldn't have been getting into. And I remember just like writing in my journal, like, you know, she's going down a dark path. I I want God heal her, fix her. I don't know what I said exactly, but I was talking like that while she read it. Oh wow nosy bitch. Her and my mom. Oh my god, I'm like, dear diary. Dear diary. Today was really my day. But nobody, and so that caused, you know, pain. And in but in the moment I was like, but Casey, like I love you. Like that's that's yeah, it's meant in love. But now in hindsight, I'm like, whenever someone comes up to me, which doesn't happen often, they're like, I'm gonna pray for you. I'm like, okay, okay. Just save your breath. Don't pray for me with X, Y, or Z. Like, I don't need it. Don't need it. I know. I need therapy. I still got some things I gotta work through. But it's just, yeah, it's I like that you mention they were just simply acting in love. And it's hard to do this, but that reminds you you've gotta be patient and meet people where they're at as much as you possibly can, while also still, of course, having boundaries and all of that. So as we kind of wrap up with everything that you've gone through with religion and coming out later in life and still kind of having that religious pullback with your family. What does hope look like for you? I mean, we we know how to answer that when we were in our church days, but when someone says hope, like what makes you hopeful, what does hope look like for you?
SPEAKER_01I think for me, hope looks like just feeling comfortable being who I am and being able to help other people feel comfortable in who they are. I think we've seen a lot of growth just in general across the world. We talked about things being different 20 years ago than they are today, and it's great to see the progress that we've made, and even you know, like seeing prides happen, for example. I think that's still a really nice way to give hope to people. Yeah. And for people to have a moment or a month or whatever to celebrate themselves. And I would like to be an inspiration to someone. I see other people who have inspired me. And so I do think that's I put my hope in that one day we'll have definitely more acceptance. I don't know if we'll ever get in my lifetime. I don't know if we'll ever get where we need to be. Yeah, it's definitely an uphill battle, sure. Uh battle. And you know, you think about how far we've come in the last 30 years, there's still a lot more to go. And I feel like even every year, we sometimes possibly take a couple steps back.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness, yeah. It's like you're climbing up that staircase and then it turns into a ramp, and there goes your ass, right now. Exactly. We deal with it.
SPEAKER_01But there's some hope in the sense of I'll say my experience coming up was hard. And if I had to have that conversation with my parents, I know it would be super difficult. And my partner, for example, seven years younger than me, did not have to have that experience. When he had that conversation with his mom, it was very accepting. And so, even in that small year, seven-year difference, there's a lot more acceptance happening already. So I can see that the younger generation of gays are not going through the same struggles. And I think that that is a good thing. Yep. You know, there's hope in that. I think there's also strength in going through struggle. Yep. I am grateful for the experiences that I had, even though some of them were hard and were difficult. Yeah. I still think I'm I'm glad that I had some of those struggles because it's really built me into this person.
SPEAKER_00It really does. Your character, your strength. Absolutely. And for me, I love, even though I don't go to church and I don't really have any desire to right now, I love driving by certain churches and you see the rainbow flag. Yeah, exactly. That for me is a step in the right direction. No. And I love seeing because that honestly takes bravery from the church to do that because you could lose at the best, you lose members. Yeah. At the worst, you could get vandalized. If they identify you as the pastor, you could get whatever. So it does take a lot of courage, but I'm so glad that there are churches out there that are standing up because strength in numbers. Yeah. I always like to end the show with something like this. If you could talk to your younger self, pick whatever age, yeah. Caleb and heels, Caleb, you know, whatever. Is there any specific thing that you would tell your younger self?
SPEAKER_01I think I would say accept yourself sooner. Yeah. You know, find a way to be comfortable with who you are earlier in life. I feel like I missed out on being gay in my 20s, you know, and I think about that all the time. Maybe I would have liked that, you know. Maybe I would have liked that. And I also would say it work hard. Nothing's gonna come to you for free. Yeah. So work very hard because at some point you're gonna find yourself alone and having to, you don't have a fallback plan. You don't have parents to say, okay, well, here we'll take care of you, or a family to be like, we got you. You're gonna have to figure it out on your own. Yeah, and so work hard, get your degrees, make your money because you know, you have to have you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. No, that's great. Caleb, thanks so much for coming on and sharing that story. Like I said earlier, your story is not unique in the sense there's a lot of gay men that come from religious backgrounds, but your specific story is so powerful and it has such a great message. And I love what you said that you hope to be a positive influence for other people. I have no doubt in my mind that not only are you doing that, but this episode and just sharing your story is gonna definitely be empowering to men that are going through or have gone through your similar story. So thanks so much for coming on and sharing.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.