Pope Vs JD Vance: Where we Stand: Episode #5

We take a dive into the political drama that went on last week between Vice President JD Vance and the Pope.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Green Dragon podcast. My name is Ryan Collins. I'm here with my friend producer, Jake Kotke. How are you doing, Jake? I'm doing good. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I got my C4 energy drink and my coffee on the same table next to me. I'm I'm jittery. Alright.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Well, I got water. So I'm a little less jittery. Hopefully we're even out.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, you're healthier than I am. I this is coffee infused morning for sure. Yeah. Jake, I have a question for you. Yes. It's kind of off the wall question. But if you could animorph style transform into an animal for 30-minute bursts, what animal would it be?

SPEAKER_02 0:44

A male lion.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

A male lion?

SPEAKER_02 0:46

So you want to spend your day sleeping? They got manes, and I think the mane looks so sick.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

You just gotta grow your beard out, man.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Listen, uh if I'm a male lion, I wouldn't have to.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

In other words, what he wants is uh his wife to do all the hunting for him so he can just sleep in the uh in the safari.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

I was uh I was in English class in high school and they asked me that exact same question. And when I said male lion, it was a class full of women, and he all got so offended. They're like, why a male lion? I'm like, because it got manes. Let me finish.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, were they upset that you said male lion instead of female lion?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yeah, they thought there was no difference between the two, and I was just Oh my gosh. Are you serious? Yes, I've been 100% serious. Hitta Heda could uh fact check me.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

That's really sad. She was in the class. They didn't know that there was a difference between a male and a female lion.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I think their feminism took over. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

We need to go back to that episode on education, man. Oh my goodness. I'd do a bison.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah, dude, those animals. They just you see ever see those pictures of a bison just staring a winter storm in its face, just like snow, ice, frozen face, the running and the herd.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

So, like, when you say anamorph, like you become a bison, like just like right where you are. Yeah, I can just transform. I feel like that'd be really hard because if you become a bison right now, you can't even get out the door.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

You wanna bet? You wanna bet. Have you ever seen a bison run?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Gain speed up in here? Okay, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Dude, there's glass on that door. I'll go right through that glass. And if I get cut.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Oh, you're a bison.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

I'm a bison, I could just have a little bit of steak. Dude.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

That's pretty dope.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah. Have you ever had a bison steak? Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Well, maybe, I don't know. I went to a steak.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

If you ever have a bison steak, you would anamorph into a bison steak.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Okay. But then you'd be self-cannibalizing.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah. That's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

That is a little weird.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Yeah, they you can get bison at uh fries. It's probably not good quality, but get a good bison steak. It's gonna be great. Well, uh, we're back uh for another episode. It's been a while. It has been a while. We're sorry.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Well, actually for them, it hasn't. Yeah, but we posted a one last week.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

We did, we did post one last week, but before that, before that, listen, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Uh I'm gonna take full credit for uh being a terrible producer because uh we had some audio problems if you watched the last episode, and I had to get the microphone to make a speech about it, just so you were aware, and it just took me forever to end up getting the microphones back to my house.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, and then I was also out of town, so we just haven't recorded in a while. Yeah. And there were some audio issues, but it was cool to know that there is at least one listener. Um on Facebook, you know, he's like my rival for 10 plus years. He's a uh St. Louis Blues hockey fan. I'm a Chicago Blackhawks fan. We just constantly rib each other. Yeah. But he uh he was cracking the whip. He was sending me messages cracking the whip on episodes and even social media marketing. So uh so we'll we'll we're gonna get back into the swing of things for sure. And this will be promoted on Instagram, and this will be promoted on Instagram uh and I'll post something on Facebook for you, Ryan. Um I'll DM him personally. Yes, yeah, yeah. You will?

SPEAKER_02 4:15

I don't know who he is.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Okay, yeah, that's true. But uh but today is a little bit different, a little bit different. Um a lot has happened in the last couple of weeks, and so this episode is gonna be kind of a response episode, not formal episode like we've been doing, kind of a response episode and some just random thoughts on what has transpired in the last couple of weeks, and it all revolves around some drama between the current administration and the Pope.

unknown 4:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Um on Easter Sunday, so like let me just try to try to chart out what has happened. On Easter Sunday, President Trump posted a pretty vulgar message on I think it was Truth Social. That's where he usually posts. And it's pretty vulgar, and he signed off with kind of like this mocking praise be to Allah at the end. Not long after that, I think, Pope Leo the Fourteenth, the first American Pope in Catholic Church history, who also happens to be a White Sox fan. That's gross. Minus three points, minus five points. Um he he was pretty vocal about our country's uh military actions in Iran. And so he he made some comments about war. Well, a week after Easter Sunday, which is the Orthodox Church's Easter Sunday because they have a different calendar from the Western Church, and it also was the Catholic Church's Divine Mercy Sunday, which celebrates God's forgiveness of sins and his mercy that he shows sinners. Trump attacked Pope Leo XIV by name, calling him weak on crime. And he claimed that uh the Pope wouldn't even be in the Vatican if it weren't for Trump. Right? So made some made some pretty big claims.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Typical Trump fashion. Typical Trump fashion.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Like you wouldn't even be in that position if it weren't for me. And then hours later, after that uh that post where Trump attacked Pope Leo, Trump posts an AI-generated image of himself that I think he got from somebody else.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, I believe it was posted first in February. Yeah, I think it was posted in February.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

And then he reposted it, and it's an AI-generated image of himself depicted as a figure healing the sick. And some saw that and claimed that it was a picture of him as Jesus healing the sick. Yeah. Uh some said it was Trump as the Pope healing the sick because of the white robe with the red sash, which you'll often see popes wearing. Well, Trump eventually took it down due to public outcry. Yeah. There was a lot of backlash. And then when a reporter asked him about it, he said it portrayed him as a Red Cross doctor. Do you buy that?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Uh no.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

I don't either. When he said that, I said, you Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

No, no, not that's crazy. Yeah, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Because I mean, if you have you ever seen a Red Cross doctor dressed like that?

SPEAKER_02 7:34

I've never seen a Red Cross heal someone like that. I didn't know they had those powers. If this is what the Red Cross is really pulling off, man, we should really give them more crazy.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

You have, you know, people with the praying hand. And you have angels or and they're all wearing red white robes with red sashes on it.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, you have fighter jets flying over crazy. Yeah, that is when he said that.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I was like, that's nuts.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Yeah. Absolutely nuts. Like part of me almost gave him like the the grandpa doubt. Like something about my grandma is she uh her profile photo was Jesus. Yeah. And like she just she loved Jesus so much, but she didn't like, well, you're like, profile photo is Jesus. No one knows it's you. So I was like, maybe, maybe you know, he's getting to that age where it's like, uh no.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Bro knows that was not a red cross.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Bro definitely knows.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Bro knows. Now, what's interesting, and I won't I won't make any more comments about it. I thought that was ridiculous. But what's interesting about this drama, this beef that's happening between the Pope and President Trump is that JD is kind of caught in the middle, right? Uh Vice President J.D. Vance. Because JD Vance is Catholic. Yeah. Right? So claims, you know. Yeah, claims to be Catholic. In fact, he's I think he's gonna be releasing a book in June about his conversion to Catholicism. So J.D. Vance is caught right in the middle, and J.D. Vance goes on Fox News, and during that interview, he says that it would be best for the Vatican, talking about the Pope, to stick to matters of morality and let the president stick to dictating policy. And I thought that response was uh interesting. And then not long ago, Vance says at a TPUSA event that the Pope should be careful talking about matters of theology. Right? He should be careful talking about matters of theology. Uh the whole thing was uh is and was uh very odd to me. Because what JD Vance said when you strip out all of the political drama from it, when I s when I saw him say that, it reminded me of a common idea that you find in American Christianity. And the idea is that faith has its lane and politics has its lane, and the two shouldn't cross. Right? The church so that the church should stick to morality and leave public policy to the professionals, leave it to the congressmen, leave it to the senators, leave it to the to the president. That's that's what JD Vance said. Yeah. And so what I want to do today is I just kind of want to give a brief uh response. It's not gonna be long, but just a brief response and consider that idea because I think that view has some theological problems to it, and I also think it comes with real consequences, right? Like, should the church be involved in politics in some way, shape, or form, or should the church just stick to its lane?

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

And so that's what I want to talk about uh on this episode of the Green Dragon. Now, to be clear, we're not we're not picking a side in the Iran war. We're not here to judge who's right in this matter, whether Trump is right or the Pope is right. We're not here even to really weigh in on any specific foreign policy question. What I want to discuss is whether or not the framework that Vance articulated, that the church handles morality, the state handles policy, and the implication that the two should never meet, whether or not that's a Christian framework. And I would argue that that is not biblical. And I and I don't believe, or and maybe I don't want to believe, that Vance actually holds to that position. Right? I th I think he's too smart to say something like that. I want to think he's too smart to say something like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Observing something like this, I think he was just trying to put the Pope in its in his place or whatever, or what he deems is his place. Um but yeah, I I think if he was just apply that to every Christian, like really brutal.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

It is brutal. Because at the end of the day, the the big question is is like, what is law? Right? What is public policy if it isn't applied morality? Right? Public policy, when you think about it, at the end of the day, is applied morality. And so I don't think that you can separate those two worlds from each other. But so often you hear from from even you know very faithful, gracious brothers and sisters in Christ, they'll say things like the church should just preach the gospel and not be engaged in politics. And I understand what they're saying, but at the end of the day, I don't agree with that. I I don't agree with that, you know, stick to your lane mentality. I do understand that there's some good instincts in that thought, right? I I do understand that there's there's good intentions, there's good uh uh there's there's it's it's coming from a good place, although I ultimately disagree with them in the long run. Right? Like I under I understand that the church should preach the gospel, right? The gospel That should be its number one mission. The gospel is the priority of the church, right? That that's that's a fact. It's it's just blatantly obvious, right? The most urgent and most important thing any human being needs in this world is to be reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:30

That's the foundation, right? That's the foundation of human existence. It's the priority of the church, preaching the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And and the truth is that no presidential or or midterm election has ever reconciled a man to God, right? Right? That's that's not how it works. Like no, no piece of legislation has ever reconciled man to God. No uh no piece of legislation can ever reconcile man to God. So so we need to understand, yes, only the gospel does that reconciling work, and only the gospel alone. So, yes, the gospel is the priority of the church. I also understand the concern behind, you know, like political hijacking in the church, right? Because that happens too. Like political hijacking and political hijacking in the church can be ugly. I mean, and what I mean by political hijacking is there are pastors who are basically political party spokespeople. Like at the last Pope. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that and like that happens on both sides of the aisle, right? Like, like you can look at some pastors and just their ministries, and you know exactly what you're gonna get. You're gonna get the GOP or you're gonna get the Democratic Party platform and you're gonna get a campaign speech every single week. And that problem exists in some churches, and it is a genuine problem, right? I would call that political hijacking. And people are worried about that, and the people who are worried about that are not wrong to be worried about that. So, so because that happens and because people have seen it happen, I understand why some would say to the church, stick to your lane, you know, preach the gospel, because that's the priority. So I I get that.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

But again, again, going back to what I talked about before, like only the Holy Spirit can regenerate hearts. And I know that's ultimately where a lot of this sentiment of stick to your lane mentality is coming from, right? It doesn't matter how learned we are or how eloquent a person is, like we can't force conversion. Right. So we may we may be able to share the gospel, we may be able to teach people and and even morally improve people, but I think it was Charles Spurgeon who said, like, you you can't make a man hate what he loved, and you can't make a man love what he hated. Right? You you you you you can't make a mourn for sin and leap for joy in God. Only the Holy Spirit does that. Right? Political programs don't regenerate hearts, you can't pass a law that makes someone love God, the Republican Party can't make somebody love God, the Democratic Party can't make somebody love God. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

And so again, from these from these understandings come that that mentality. Stick to your lane. The church should stick to their lane. But here's the thing is I can affirm those three things. I can affirm that the gospel is a priority, the priority of the church.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I can I can affirm that political hijacking happens in the church and that it's a problem. And I can also affirm that only the Holy Spirit can regenerate hearts, but I still don't agree that those three things lead us to the stick to morality, leave policy to us stance.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Because again, it assumes that morality and policy are two separate categories that can be, you know, neatly handed to two separate institutions.

unknown 17:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

But they can't be.

unknown 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Right? Because they aren't separate. Every policy decision is a moral decision. Right? Every law contains a moral judgment. So when a government decides to whether or not to go into a war, it's making a moral claim at the end of the day about the value of human life, the human the value of the human life of the people in their own country, but also the value of the human life and the people of the other country. They're making a moral claim about the legitimacy of violence and whether it's just or not, and and the rights of nations. So there's there's moral judgments that that are contained even in that decision making.

unknown 17:40

Right?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

What a government decides to do about abortion, you know, and pro-choice laws and pro-life laws. At the end of the day, that government is making a moral and biological claim about human life and human dignity.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So there's no, you know, just policy zone that's free of moral content.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

And I feel like a perfect example of this where the this pope is against deportation and it has like very different immigration views than someone like Charlie Kirk. But when Charlie Kirk talked about immigration, he's like, well, I leave my religion out of it. No, he you went back to biblical uh scripture to go and support his views. That is what you want. Yep. Is that you want Christians, Catholics, or whatever, using scripture in their faith to support their political views. Exactly. And and I feel like that doesn't mean that they're automatically right. Why? Well, look at Charlie Kirk and Pope, both Christian, but they have completely opposing views. But that is the response we wanted from JD fans, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:43

It's a biblically grounded response.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

I disagree with you, and biblically, this is my this is where I come from. Not listen, religious man, you have your lane, I have mine. Let each other do our jobs. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, that like I I I try I try to think of like what would be an equivalent to that kind of stick to your lane mode mentality. Like like tell telling the church to stick to its lane of morality and leave policy to politicians would be the equivalent of telling a doctor to stick to medicine and leave prescriptions to someone else. That that's how I see it. Yeah. Right? Like you stick to medicine, leave the prescriptions for for somebody else, for the pharmacist. But the prescription is medicine applied, is it not?

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And so policy is morality applied. You can't separate them. And that's that's how I look at this whole situation, all of this drama. I'm sitting there and being like, what's what is being said right now?

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

It it makes no sense for me. And and as a Christian, I think there's a theological foundation that undergirds all of this. And there's so many passages that we could pull from, but like the most notable would be the Great Commission passage, Matthew 28, 18, where Christ, the risen Christ, says, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Right? So at Christ's resurrection, God the Father vindicates Jesus and gives him full dominion over all of creation in heaven and on earth. This is why Peter in Acts 2 says that God has made him, Jesus, both Lord and Christ. Heaven and earth fall under the authority of Christ. He is Lord, he's king, he's master over everything, whether that rule of his is recognized or not. And the person who says, well, let Christ handle morality and the president handle policy, is is probably without meaning to saying that the author and lord of political authority has no say in how that authority is exercised.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

That's crazy to me. Abraham Kuyper was a uh a Dutch statesman and uh and theologian. He has this great quote. I think it's from the inaugural address of the Free University of Amsterdam in 1880. He said, uh, and I quote it all the time in our membership classes at our church, you know, to explain how we view discipleship within our church body. He said, There is not one square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which Christ, who is sovereign over all, does not cry mine. Not one square inch that doesn't belong to Christ. And so if Christ is sovereign over all things, and I believe he is, then there's no domain of life where the question where the answer to the question is, does God have something to say here? Where where the answer is, well, actually, that one's off limits. You know, like does does Christ have something to say here? Ah, actually, even though he's sovereign over all things, he actually doesn't have much to say in that area of life. There's there's no area off limits for Christ and his word. And that includes foreign policy, that includes war, that includes how governments handle economics, taxes, immigration, the poor, vulnerable, and so forth. And you know what's interesting about this whole thing, Jake, about uh the the Pope Leo situation is that regardless of what you think about his specific positions, his beliefs, the Catholic Church, what he's doing, a religious leader speaking publicly about the moral dimensions of a government's military actions, when you think about it, that's exactly what the biblical prophets did. Right? Amos walked into the northern kingdom and told the merchants that they were under judgment for exploiting the poor. Isaiah stood in the courts of kings and told them their governance was abominable.

unknown 23:05

Right?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Micah 6.8, you know, great verse. What does the Lord require of you, O man, but to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God? Right? Do justice is not a private interior feeling, it's a public obligation directed at how power is exercised. And then what about John the Baptist? All right, the story of John the Baptist, right? He told King Herod to his face that his marriage was unlawful. You know, he didn't he didn't send a carefully worded, carefully crafted pastoral letter. He said it to his face. You know? Like, how would you like walking up to the ruler of the land at that time and just being like, your marriage is unlawful? You know, like, and then of course, yeah, Herod had him imprisoned and John the Baptist was eventually beheaded. But, you know, Jesus looked at John and called him the greatest man born of woman. And so apparently, confronting political authority on moral grounds was considered within the scope of God's messenger.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Pretty normal.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Pretty normal. And so, Jake, setting aside, you know, whether you agree with Pope Leo on Iran specifically, at the end of the day, do you think he had the right as a Christian leader to say what he said? Or should he have stuck to morality?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

No, I mean I yeah, no, I believe as a Christian, you can enter any spectrum of topic that you want with a Christian backing. And like I said, it doesn't automatically make him right. Again, there's probably more I disagree with the Pope than I do agree. The war, I don't I'm not too sure, but 100% he has the right to talk about it, and Vance has 100% the right to disagree with it. It's shutting down that he has anything valid to say because he's a religious man is is silly to me. Because Vance, you're a religious man. Yeah. Does that mean why are you in politics if you're a religious man? You know, like it is there a point of you become so religious and so uh committed to Christ that you can't talk about politics? Like, where's that line at? Where's the line? Are you not at that line?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

So I don't know, it's just the whole thing, just the whole thing just doesn't make sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, and I think an important thing to take away from this is applying the consistent standard, right? And that is something if you I think it was our second episode, we talk about how um there's so much separation and and this basically throwing away of God from politics. Maybe in the second episode, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

But the point We've done so many episodes it's we've lost count where we're at the catalog.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yes. The the the point is is that we're trying to hold the same consistent standard to the GOP politicians, yeah. And and that's coming from someone who is uh like I'm young, but I've always viewed everything right um um on the political spectrum and on the ideas I probably still do, but I want my politicians not saying separate religion from politics. Yeah, no, I want I want every decision you make to be inspired and and viewed by your faith. You know, I don't want them to be separated. Yeah, so this doesn't you know automatically make me a Democrat 100% no. Yeah, um I don't think I could ever go that direction, but the point is is I'm trying to hold the same consistent standard because that is something I didn't like about the Democratic Party. They don't really hold standards. Their standards for a Democrat is hating Trump. Yeah, and and if if you hate Trump, then you're on our party. It doesn't really matter. You can be an AOC, you can be a Bernie Sanders, or you can be a Joe Biden, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

They just have a unit like one thing they're unified around.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah, unified is disliking Trump. Um I don't want that. I want us to be unified in thought and and idea, um, or at least source of idea. And where's that source? The Bible. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

I guess for me, like if I if I had to try and just you know make sense of how I felt when I saw that, it's like you can disagree with Pope Leo's positions on certain things, and and like you said, Vance could disagree with Pope Leo, but I think the thing that really rubbed me the wrong way is that uh disagreeing with his conclusions isn't the same thing as saying that he should have just stayed quiet. I think that's the part that really irked me is like he should just shut his mouth and not say a word. Because as I read the scriptures, the prophets didn't stay silent, they spoke. John the Baptist before King Herod didn't stay silent, he spoke. And if faithful Christian leaders like you're telling the Pope to stick to his lane, like what's he supposed to do as the as the as the face, the representative of the Catholic Church? Right? If if faithful and even within within you know the evangelical, you know, uh Protestant Christian church, if faithful Christian leaders won't speak into these areas or aren't allowed to speak into these areas, then who's going to speak into these areas? Who's gonna fill the void? Well, uh it goes back to, I don't know, whatever episode we did on that. Like when the church takes a step back, you know, culture's gonna step in.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah. And I real quick, I think it was kind of very frustrating, and I'm sure a lot of people may hold this point of view, is like the Pope is definitely uh politically uh ignorant, right? Like he, you know, he's behind the Vatican walls, he doesn't really know what's going on, he doesn't know the scope of everything, he doesn't have you know all these agencies talking to him. Like he doesn't, like I can say for certain, he doesn't have all the information that Trump and J.D. Vance have received. 100%. That was not reflected or articulated by J.D. Vance at all. No, it was not attacked by the ideas that he's wrong and here's why, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's that he should speak. You just shouldn't speak about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

And that's that's what made me so upset.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Yeah, and and that's the frustrating point is because imagine like it this is exactly what how men feel when it talks about the abortion argument. You can lay out the arguments, you can articulate the ideas, you can debate typically on the points, but then what men get told all the times, well, you don't have a vagina, you're not a woman, you can't speak on it. Yeah, it's like you didn't mention any of my ideas, my thoughts, you didn't prove me wrong. If if you are a woman and you have so much more insight about abortion, articulate it. Yeah, you're just shutting me down. But you're just shutting me down based on the premise of either what I am or what I believe in.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

So it's exactly what JD Vance did to Pope. Whether Pope is right or wrong, that is for yourselves to articulate. I'm not I'm not gonna stand behind uh his political takes. But why didn't JD Vance attack him on the premise of the ideas of what he was saying, right at the premise of what he believes in?

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Or yeah, that he spoke. Yeah, it's it and what when you think about it, it it all kind of smacks of Gnosticism to me. And and maybe J.D. Vance didn't speak, like think of this, but where where the spiritual things are sacred uh uh and physical things are secular, right? Like that's that's Gnosticism in a nutshell. The material world is dirty, the spiritual world is the real thing, and so enlightened people transcend the messy uh physical stuff and they go to the to the spiritual stuff. Well, Christianity has fought that since the earliest days of the church and has rejected that. The body's good, God made it. You know, matter is good, God created it. The resurrection is bodily, the new creation is a is a renewed material world, cosmos. So when someone says that the church handles essentially the spiritual stuff and the government handles the material stuff and they don't mix, that sounds more Gnostic to me than Christ, right? And that's that's another issue that I have with this, right? Because Christian Christianity isn't a system of metaphysics. It's about life. It's about transforming power that transcends mere intellectual ascent and entails a complete surrender of the whole person to God, right? The whole person, not just parts of the person, like certain spheres of my life, like the spiritual parts only, but not the other parts. No, it's the whole person. Because when God reaches the whole person, he renews and sanctifies the whole person, every part of his life, every sphere of his life, including his politics. And so God doesn't just reroute our eternal destinations, he renews minds and he reorders loves and he, I would say he recalibrates a conscience to the word of God. And so that person then goes back into the world, whether it's their job or their neighborhood or their community or their voting booth, you know, carrying that renewed conscience by the grace and mercy of God. And so telling them to leave that at the door or don't speak, you know, just stick to your lane uh in certain spheres, that's bewildering to me.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

And then to have it from come from somebody who, you know, is a professed Catholic and is coming out with a book talking about his conversion, it it just confused me. Um, and I I wouldn't say that that's piety. I I I wouldn't I wouldn't say that that's faithfulness either. And and you think about the consequences of it. Well, what happens if the church doesn't speak into policies and and and only sticks to its lane? I mean, it abandons the most vulnerable people, right? To political forces who may not care about them at all. You know, like Proverbs 31, 8 through 9 says, speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. That's a command to use your voice. Right? That's a command to use your influence and use your platform for for people who don't have one. And and in many real-world situations, that's inescapably political. It's going to be inevitably political. Yeah. Right? The pre-born baby can't speak for themselves. Who's going to speak for them?

unknown 32:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Right? So I don't know. I I think the people who lose when the church just handles morality but leaves policy to politicians is the people with the least amount of power. The people who aren't in that room in the Oval Office or in the halls of Congress or with the parliament. It it the people that lose are the pre-born babies, the children, our churches, our communities. And every policy swims downstream. So every policy that happens in our country affects me, it affects you, it affects our families, it affects the people in our church. And so it's it's it's all it's all moral judgments, it's all morality. But I recognize that some people are hesitant because they say that politics, you know, will tear a church apart. It can, certainly, yes. But we need to remember that the church as an institution, right, the gathered body, the pulpit, the eldership, it isn't a political party. And so the pastor isn't a campaign manager, or at least shouldn't be a campaign manager, but the church as the people of God sent out into every sphere of sphere of society, those people need to carry their faith with them everywhere they go. And that that means that they're gonna vote as Christians, that means they're gonna serve in office as Christians. Uh, they show up to school board meetings as Christians, show up to work as Christians. And so I think it was J.I. Packer who said that the church is not a political institution, but the members of the church are citizens of an earthly kingdom, and they ought to discharge their duties in both. Right? So not one or the other, like the stick to your lame mentality, but both uh areas. We need to discharge our duties uh as the church and as citizens of an earthly kingdom. We need to discharge our duties in both. Uh, and we need to do so without baptizing our politics, right? And and you know, I what I think say by what I mean by that is that Christians have a tendency to dress up their pull their their political preferences and cultural preferences in scripture and then call it the will of God, right? So like they're force forcing their views onto scripture, and I think that's that's real, it happens and it needs to be called out. But I would say that the answer to that is not to stop being involved in public policy, we just need to do better as Christians, you know? Right? We need to hold our political instincts up to scripture instead of you know the other way around. And so I think that the word of God must interrogate our politics, and that's the model. Um but then the question I I think from that comes like, well, what does that look like, right? What is what is uh faithful, grounded, nonpartisan engagement that's uh faithful uh to the Christian faith, what does that actually look like? And it's kind of what you've been sharing, Jake, and what we've kind of briefly touched on. I think first of all it's word governed, you know. I I before you form a political opinion, I think you first of all need to open up your Bible, let the whole council of God, you know, justice, mercy, image bearing, covenant, law. I think you need to let all of it, the whole council of God, shape how you think and view the world. And so I would say start there. Let the word of God genuinely shape and form your categories. And then secondly, I think you need to be humble on the secondary stuff, right? Like scripture, I th I would say scripture speaks clearly on so many issues. I think it speaks clearly on the sanctity of human life, the nature of justice, the dignity of every person made in God's image, uh marriage, uh biology, so many issues. But I also recognize that there are things that scripture uh is less clear on. On the things that scripture speaks clearly about, I think you hold those things firmly, white knuckle those things, right? It's like the conviction and opinions, like those ought to be convictions that that you just can't shake, that they are in your bones, you're digging your heels in the ground, you're saying, I'm standing on this. But on secondary issues that are more questions of prudence, you know, like think about like the best military strategy or the the wisest diplomatic approach, the right foreign policy trade-offs, things like that, where it's like, you know, to your point, like I don't have all the information, you know, like I'm just a normal guy from from Arizona.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

And you can try to find like similar situations in the Bible, but not, you know, every situation so unique.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Find principles and stuff, but but also understand that in those more secondary areas, areas of prudence, rather than where the scriptures are speaking clearly on it, faithful Christians will land in in different areas on those things. And so I think that you should hold those secondary views with a loose grip, you know, and and just because you have a strong opinion about it, doesn't mean that you know you're a prophet in that area. And and then speaking of uh about prophets, I think we need to be prophetic and not partisan as Christians. Right? The biblical prophets, they confronted kings, they didn't wear a team jersey, they didn't, they didn't wear the the blue jersey or the red jersey, and and I think they were just trying to be faithful to the Lord and what the Lord has revealed to them and his word and his standard according to his law. And I think that when your political criticism only flows in one direction, you're not being prophetic. You're you're being a pundit, you know, like and and that's why I felt like we needed to bring this up because I don't I I don't want to be a pundit, I don't want to be partisan, I have my convictions, I have my views, and I want the scriptures to form those views, and when I see it, you know, problems on the left, I'm gonna call out the problems on the left. But when I see problems on the right, I don't want to turn a blind eye to it. I still want to be consistent with my standard and call out the problems that I see on the right. Because at the end of the day, I don't serve the right, I don't serve the left, I serve only one king, and that's Jesus. And every earthly king, every earthly party, every platform gets measured by the same standard, and that's King Jesus' standard according to his word. And that's how we should engage in politics. It's not about parties, it's not about people, it's about what has God revealed for the flourishing and the good of human life on earth, in these nations, and how does one exercise authority rightly? And I think that the church for far too long has has been living in that stick-to-your lane mentality, and it's precisely why we got into the mess that we're currently in as a culture. And it's time to to change lanes. Um and so anything else you want to say on this? I I I could ramble on and on. I'm just confused by it, I'm shocked by it, but I definitely wanted to say something because this is the very heartbeat of the podcast, right, Jake? Like that our faith and God's word speaks to these matters, and therefore God's word should form our opinions, form our convictions, and we should also speak to these matters because if we don't speak, then somebody else is gonna speak, and it's not gonna be based on God's word. It's not gonna be based on God's standard. And so this idea that the church should just stick to their lane and not speak, I just couldn't stay silent about it. I had to open my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah. And I I think it's very interesting coming from one, JD Vancey is a Catholic, but it's coming from this administration. I mean, he's a heart like a huge representation of this administration, but they had no time like no problem bringing faith when it came like bringing religion when it came to an election cycle. Right? I mean there are there's many Christian messages in God being brought up in political speeches, and that's great. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but you can't then get elected and then jump to policy and say it's separate, right? If it got you elected, you need to use it in your policies. And I think that's why in America today that we're generally so upset about what's been going on is because I mean, as a Christian, I I voted usually because I'm a Christian for for Trump and JD Vance, being that uh J.D. Vance is Catholic and God fearing, and this would translate into policy-making issues. And I'm not saying it completely hasn't, I don't know what's going on in their hearts, I don't know what's going behind closed doors. Um but I will say is when you say out loud that stick to your lane, you know, or you know, separate, it's frustrating because if okay, if it was truly separate, then you're losing a lot of Christian votes. Because you get so many votes on an election cycle because Yeah, should I not vote then if I'm gonna stick to my lane? Yeah, exactly. Like religious people voted right. So when you say the religious and the political should be separate, look at how many votes you're losing there.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

And and again, understand because let's let's tease this out all the way.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Right? If I should only deal with morality and not policy, then what business do I have being in the voting booth?

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Exactly. Because like I'll I'll say confidently, I I am a religious man over a political man, but I don't like I have political takes because I apply my religion to political issues. But if I were to completely separate them and I had to choose one, apparently, if I had to be in a lane one or the other, I'm choosing religion all day, and that means you wouldn't have my vote. So it is a little bit more frustrating, being that like they had no problem bringing up religion all the time when it came to an election cycle. But as soon as a religious man has political ideas, they're like, What are you doing? You know, it's like it was a one-way street. Political people could talk about religion, religious people cannot talk about political stuff. So I think it was definitely more frustrating. We'll see as time goes. There's so much. I mean, every every uh new Trump tweet's a new day, so there's so much going on. Somebody's got to take the phone. And maybe somebody's gonna take the phone. Maybe with this last post, he was trying to bridge the gap with Jesus and Trump.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Yeah, yeah. We have a new post, uh, uh Jesus hugging Trump. It just it just never ends. I don't know. I w I wanna I don't know. I don't I want to give Vance the benefit of the doubt. Maybe maybe he only meant the Pope. You know, maybe maybe he didn't mean everybody else. Maybe he only meant the Pope, but I still just find that hard to believe. And even then, I think I think Vance is smarter than that. I think he would know that the implications of his words to the Pope is that it's it it trickles down to other people of faith, and that if the Pope of all people should stick to morality and leave policy to the president, then that must also mean that other people of faith should stick to morality and leave policy to the president. Yeah. And and I I want to think that he's smarter than that. And but it was it was very disappointing to see.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

Don't attack them on who they are. Because, like, for like, for instance, like with Pope and his you know views of like anti-immigration, but be but he's behind the Vatican Walls. You know, he's talking about building bridges over walls. He's like, Okay, well those are nice too. Yeah, and it's like it's kind of contradictory, and that is something, a point you can definitely debate him on. Yeah, but I wouldn't say, Oh, well, your view of immigration is doesn't matter because you're religious. It's like, no, like you can attack the ideas without attacking the person. So it was a little frustrating, it seemed like a little cop-out of like, oh, instead of uh attacking the ideas, I'm just gonna attack the person. Yeah, so yeah, I mean, politicians, uh, I will say I will walk away saying this, right? Uh do not put your faith in man. Politicians, uh, left and right are uh going to continually, continually disappoint you because they're man, right? They're no different than you and me. We disappoint each other. There's only one king that will never disappoint us, and it will be a a rock, and that's Jesus Christ. Yep. Um, so just hold hold strong to that. Uh draw all this politicalness, you are gonna feel betrayed, you're gonna feel uh angry, you're gonna whatever. The point is is nothing you see, doesn't matter how white knight they look, nothing you see will be like consistent, concrete. It it is literally we are born to fail each other. All right. So that's my takeaway, is hold strong to Christ no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yep. Amen. Yeah, and uh my my takeaway from all this is and the reason why we felt compelled to do it is because this does seem to be the kind of framework that a lot of Christians operate with. Um and maybe Vance has been has lived in that framework and has absorbed it, and that's why he said it. But at the end of the day, God exercises dominion over all creatures, all of them. And that includes every president, every parliament, every policy decision. And if God exercises dominion over all creatures, then that means, friends, that there's no corner of public life. There's no policy, no war, no law that exists outside his claim or outside the church's obligation to speak into. And so whether or not you agreed with Pope Leo on Iran, the idea that a Christian leader should simply be quiet because some things are policy and therefore outside of his lane, I don't think that's a position the Bible supports. Right? The prophets didn't stay in their lane, John the Baptist didn't stay in his lane, and honestly, many faithful Christians throughout history absolutely did not stay in their lane. And so preach the gospel, yes, always first boldly, preach the gospel, but preach the whole gospel, the one that declares that Jesus is Lord over every square inch of human existence, including the square inches inside the Oval Office and the Pentagon and every legislature in the world. That's my two cents. Perfect. Any final words? Um, no, I'm all good over here. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us on the Green Dragon podcast. My name is Ryan Collins. I am with Jake Kotke. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Lord willing, it will be soon, much sooner, than the one.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I won't let you guys down.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

I won't let anyone down. God bless you guys. We'll see you next time.