Ep 7 | Sunil Patel | Inside The Maverick Mind

What does it take to build one of the UK's most celebrated sports production companies from scratch - with a new baby, a gut feeling, and no safety net?

Emyr Afan sits down with Sunil Patel, CEO and co-founder of Whisper, the award-winning team behind Channel 4's Formula One coverage, the Paralympics, International Cricket, and the BAFTA-winning A United Kingdom: Women's Euros 2022.

Sunil opens up about growing up the son of a corner-shop family, discovering his passion for sport and TV at Teddington School, and the defining moment he walked away from a BBC staff job - and nearly became a police officer - before co-founding Whisper with
Jake Humphrey and David Coulthard.

In this conversation, Sunil and Emyr explore:

• How ADHD became Sunil's superpower in high-pressure decision making
• Why diversity of lived experience - not just background - drives creative output
• The maverick philosophy behind remote production and Whisper's Cardiff Broadcast Centre
• What it felt like to step back into the VT coordinator's seat at the British Grand Prix
• The legacy of Eddie Jordan and lessons from two decades of taking the shot

From the Formula One paddock to the Paralympics, from London to Cardiff, this is a masterclass in backing yourself, building culture, and refusing to stay in your lane.

🎙️ "A maverick is someone who takes risks and lives with the consequences." - Sunil Patel

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Picture a huge night of sport. F1 under the lights, the Paralympics, a tournament final. Millions are watching, the drama's real, and on screen everything just works. Most people never think about who makes that happen. Our guest not only thinks about it, he's built a company around doing it differently. Sunil Patel is the CEO and co-founder of Whisper, the award-winning team behind Channel 4's Formula One, the Paralympics International Cricket, and the BAFTA winning UEFA Women's Euros 2022. And there's no doubt Sunil's got that Maverick streak. The kind of person who, when someone says you can't, simply quietly thinks to himself, watch me. Let's get inside his Maverick Mind. Sunil, welcome. Good to see you. I'm thrilled that you've come in. Honestly, and find the time has been a mission, I'm sure. Before we get into your Maverick mindset, let's start with your origins. Take us right back before Whisper, before the BAFTAs and the big rights deals. What did life look like for you starting out in TV and what pulled you into sport and broadcasting in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Well, first and foremost, thanks for having me. Um great to have the chance to kind of just share some stories and hopefully inspire some people who might be thinking about their journey. My journey started when I was at school. I was very fortunate to go to Teddington School, which was one of the only state schools in the country that had access to TV equipment because we were next to Teddington studios back then. So we would get sent all their old equipment and we'd get a chance to play with it. And I took GCSE TV studies, partly because I felt that wasn't real work. Um, and I was never someone who could sit down, memorize passages of text or or was super bright when it came to maths. I was okay, but not exceptional. At that point, I I started to think about what did I actually want to do long term in my life. Strange kind of for a 14-15-year-old to think like that, but I was good at cricket, I was not good enough. Um, and that meant I was never gonna play any level of high-level sport. And I thought actually, well, I love sport, I'm obsessed by watching whatever's on TV, whenever. And I kind of thought, well, actually, how can I get close to sport as a job and and and kind of as a lifestyle? And I thought, well, actually, if I kind of build a career in TV and content, that's going to allow me to get close to my passion. And my view now, actually 30 odd years on, is if you can find a job that is a passion, you'll never work a day in your life. And I don't feel I've probably worked a day in my life.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I share a very similar journey. Wasn't quite quite good enough to be. I was in bands touring and all that kind of stuff, but not at that level, and sport as well. Yeah. And I've ended up running a production company office music and sport. But what a great place to be. Yeah, you just gravitate towards your passion, and and I can't believe it's a job, but it is a job. It's it's hard, it's become harder over the years, mine. You spent a big chunk of your time, your early career at BBC Sport, uh working on the Olympics, Euro 20 2008, I think, Wimbledon. When you look back now, what did those years on the inside of a big broadcaster teach you that you're still drawn today as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

I think those environments are very different to kind of when you're running your own production company and the and the risk is on you and the decision making is on you. I think the fundamentals of relationships, um, getting on with people, learnings from people who do things very well, but also learnings from things that aren't done very well. And that really helped me when I went forward and and set up Whisper um to kind of put all that into practice, really.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

So in 2010, you, Jake Humphrey and David Coulter decided to launch Whisper. Can you take us back into that founding moment? What was the conversation or maybe the frustration that turned into let's stop talking about changing things and actually build our own company?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, I I was very fortunate to work with both David Jake and Eddie Jordan in the Formula One team. Sadly, he passed away, and he was a Maverick, by the way, one of the greatest. I was working alongside the guys, the BBC had decided to move the sport department up to Manchester. I lived in London and despite having been at university in Manchester and loved it up there, I didn't want to move. And and actually at the time we were working in Formula One, a lot of the teams and sponsors in Formula One were coming to me directly saying, Look, we love what you do on the BBC, can you do it for us? And I I I couldn't. My my kind of day job of running kind of content for the Formula One coverage was was keeping me busy, and I didn't want to kind of make that jump. And actually the moment was when I realized actually, could I make the most of all those kind of relationships I'd built up and kind of the situation of being kind of not forced out the BBC, but the decision became easy. I thought, well, hang on, here's the opportunity. If I leave the BBC, set up a production company, um, I can service a lot of those people in the Formula One paddock alongside Jake and David, who had the profile and the opportunity to sit down with Christian Horner or Toto Wolf and say, Look, can we make your content? And um, that's really how it kicked off. And on reflection, it was quite a brave decision. But I think when you're in the moment, I didn't over-process it. I kind of it was have I got enough savings to to kind of get through the next year, and we just had our first child as well, and it was a quite critical moment. I think if I had over-processed it, I probably would have said no. But I I th the gut feel was there, and I'd always wanted to do my own thing, never been talented enough. But then this opportunity came, and then with Jake and David around me, it was kind of made meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

It was meant to be because you've created being successful, but you wouldn't believe the mavericks I've heard, the same story where they didn't have enough in the bank, they did have a kid on the way, but their gut instinct said, We need to do this, we need to do it now. And the timing of that, that instinct, that maverick instinct, I would say, is really important. You uh because if you didn't take that moment, that moment would have passed, and you wouldn't have had the chance again.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, and and I think that's kind of something I've learned and um I try and pass on to the team every day is take the shot. Yeah, you've got to take the shot. Um whereas others won't take the shot, it's it's better to take the shot and and miss than it is uh to to not take the shot. That's kind of been a bit of a kind of default for how I've always operated. I'd rather rather give it a go and fail um than not give it a go. And as long as you're learning when you're making the failures and it doesn't work, if you keep continuing to make the same kind of mistake, then there's a problem. But uh give it a go.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I'm 100% for that. I mean, I call it a vanti because it means to go forward, to go for things, to try things, you know. The culture in Ireland and America is very much forgiving for entrepreneurs to try and fail. But I think in the UK sometimes you're not allowed to fail. Well, you're going to fail sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Well, you sorry to interrupt you. It's not just about failure, it's about success. People don't necessarily see entrepreneurs and risk takers and those that create their own success as a good thing. They like we like to knock people down rather than kind of that look, there's lots of challenges in America, um, and I'm not saying it's perfect, but they do back the American dream. And like say in Ireland too, like there is that kind of right, go, let's go for it. Good on you. Whereas I think sometimes I guess some of the learnings, like those voices you have around you and the negativity that's sometimes thrown your way from people that you don't even know, um, that can get you down, but you've got to gotta stay tough.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Well, funny enough, I think that's why I'm doing this show to a great deal, is that I respect people like yourself and others, and I want to celebrate, and also for it people to realize I will be asking you about problems, I'll be asking about challenges because it's not easy. Do you mean I had a billionaire sitting the seat and I needed to hear from him saying, No, actually, there were days I wanted to give up. There were days I wanted to walk out of the office. We need to hear that because I have those days, you know, and you've had those days, no doubt. You've talked about this idea of shaking the tree constantly, looking for new opportunities and refusing to just settle. I recognise that in every maverick. Where does that come from? Your book background, your family, your personality, and how did it shape your decision to step out and create whisper?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Shaking the tree is a line that I picked up from David, David Coulthard. He's always talking about right, let's shake the tree, let's kind of give it a go, let's kind of see what's there. But actually, I think kind of the genesis of my kind of get up and go has always been from seeing my mum and dad, who ran a newspaper shop when I was growing up. All I'd see is them waking up at half five, opening the shop at six o'clock on the dot, and then closing it at six o'clock on the dot every day. Bar Sunday, where it would open at seven and it would shut at two. So our family time was really kind of Sunday afternoons together, and and just seeing that that relentless nature of dad just getting up and going for every day um almost kind of drilled it into me about kind of work ethic and what it takes to kind of that consistency of turning up, um, what it takes to kind of achieve something. And and neither my mum or dad came from kind of highly educated backgrounds, but that small kind of role modelling and uh played a massive part, and that's why it's important to have positive characters around you and and kind of in business as well. Like I'm still learning from people around me, um, and I I try and and ensure I just have positivity around me, and that's not just people inflating your tires and making you feel good, it's about people just having the right energy. I just want people to kind of see the positive in the situation, not the negative, and that's kind of what I try to carry through as well.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

I always refer to it as radiators and drains. Some people are radiators, they have warmth and they're giving and sort of supportive, and other people drain you. Do you mean and I try to, I mean, there for everybody, but I try to stay closer to the radiators not because I'm cold, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

No, I think kind of your your DNA is your DNA in terms of how you operate, but talking to your point about not mistakes, but kind of some of the challenges, sometimes it is going to be tough, and sometimes you are gonna be a bit frustrated. Or I often walk around the office now and kind of I'm in the zone and people think, oh hang on, is he happy, unhappy? I'm just thinking because I've got so much process in my in my mind. But the default, no matter what the situation is, is kind of a decent person. And if you can kind of be that decent person, try and make the right decision for the in the right way and lead with that positivity and the right energy and and kind of radiate the positivity, then it it just kind of it comes from the top culture and some people look at you all the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I mean, I've seen it in the office. When I've had my worst days, I get more of that, more conversations, and you just have to go somewhere and be the leader. Yeah. I learned early on with Sky when we were bought, we bought it back later. But they taught me to be a statesman and to have that kind of candor that would help people around me to feel calm. Because if you are going to worry, I'm worried before now and I can't hide it. But you know, it's just keeping that kind of proverbial swan in the lake when it's going like this underneath to it.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

But but then there's also that element of um, whilst Sky might have taught you to be a statesman, there is also in everything we do, and and as I've matured and kind of grown into kind of what I'm doing now, and the responsibility that comes with it is actually just being authentic and being yourself. And far too long I tried to be someone I wasn't, and I was fortunate to kind of have a coach. I struggled with reading, it takes me a long time, concentration was difficult for me. Um, but I read a lot of books from other people who were really successful, and he was like, Look, just stop reading books, just be yourself and and kind of be authentic to yourself. And that kick started the journey in the last probably five to ten years of just just being myself and being authentic. So I think that's kind of important. You that's kind of what the word the magic is, it's you, it's your it's your kind of USP.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Oh your drive. I love the fact that you acknowledge your parents because I saw that same work ethic that and you need that drive, you need something that propels you. I prep I tend to look out for when I employ people for self-propelled individuals, people who you don't have to say, they're just gonna do it anyway. Let's move on to what we call the Maverick mindset, the way you think about risk, creativity, and people. Whisper has a reputation for doing sports differently, not just pointing cameras at events, but telling stories around them. Where did that mindset come from for you?

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Well, look, I think the bigger picture of kind of risk and kind of decision making and ownership of decisions and and kind of giving it a go and that fearless nature sometimes actually comes probably from the way my mind is wired. I am uh neurodiverse, I have ADHD, which I think actually contributes to the kind of a lot of that mindset that you're talking about. I think kind of often sometimes that's seen as a negative, but actually it's my superpower. Uh the ADHD has helped me kind of frame that superpower of being able to make multiple decisions a day, um, being comfortable with those decisions, taking the risk, and being comfortable when it doesn't work out. My son's been diagnosed recently, and I like the fact that he's got a role model of someone he can talk to about it and and kind of actually see a positive um outcome from being diagnosed with with ADHD.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

This is fascinating because I'm a high-functioning visual dyslexic, and I didn't know till a lot later in life that I was, and that's why I can direct up to 20 cameras live. I don't think about it, I just do it. It's a superpower. I relate to the same, I design sets, interior design. I just think that way, and I think it is a superpower. I I love the fact that you acknowledge that. And I'm about to start a campaign which is called Don't Diss Me, which is DYS Me. You know, because there are entrepreneurs in classrooms right across the country who feel different, feel they don't fit in. I can read, I can write, of course, but I choose to have an audiobook or I choose to do something visual because that's where how my brain processes learning. Do you mean it's it's crazy, but you've got to know yourself and see these as strengths, not weaknesses.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Uh absolutely, and I and I think having been through that and and kind of we talked about culture and who you put around you, um I actively look for people like that now because they do have that superpower, and it's where everyone kind of goes and fishes in one pond. Well, let's kind of open up that into a lake, right? And let's go for kind of people who think differently, because that's where sometimes you get the magic and and that those super powers are sometimes suppressed because whether it's in education when you're a young kid, everyone's boxed in, and the curriculum doesn't allow for people who who have different mindsets in terms of how their brains operate, and you're very quickly pigeonholed as someone who is dysfunctional or or lazy or or kind of um impatient, and and actually it's just because your mind can't control kind of how you behave, and sometimes those people often come out as kind of high-performing individuals in certain areas, like you say, being able to kind of see 20 feeds coming in and being able to make decisions in the moment and being very comfortable. That's not natural. Um, so uh I'm I'm uh I'm all for tapping into that kind of world of um people with uh differences can can come together and you then create something even better.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Oh 100%. And also, I wasn't the easiest in the classroom because I was asking the question, why all the time? What why are we doing this? And you asked, Why are we doing sport this way? That curiosity is the mother invention. There was a moment that must have been when you realised that TV could feel more like drama. Sport could be it's the biggest drama on earth, isn't it? When you do see a game or whatever, but I think the conventional coverage we'd get wouldn't convey that. But that's what Whisper for me has managed to convey.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Oh, thank you. Um, yeah, we're we're very fortunate that we've got an incredibly talented team who buy into a vision of being ambitious, being bold, being creative, being diverse, being honest, entertaining, and relentless. And that's how we look at things. And I think my view is we want to create content that creates an emotional reaction with with the audience and makes them feel and engage. We tell stories and we don't want stories that wash over people. We want people to feel something, and sometimes it's hard because you like right kind of pushing people beyond kind of the comfort zone, and that's kind of where I think we've really kind of honed who we are. Sport isn't just a live feed of capturing what happens on the pitch or on the circuit, on the track, whatever it might be. It's it's kind of how do we kind of create entertainment around that? How do we kind of make it more than just kind of the sport itself and and adding that layer of entertainment and the human stories and the kind of rivalries and and kind of articulating that and and kind of curating that for people at home is is kind of where we've really excelled, I think.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

I can see a bit more of that in sports personality of the year this year with the whisper produced, had that increased storytelling, sense of occasion, moment. It wasn't beige, it was technical.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Uh look, credit to the team, massive credit to the team, and and I'm involved in that production, I love it because I grew up watching it as a young kid, and it seems strange to be now doing it after the BBC had done it for 70 years, to be kind of given the responsibility. Natural treasure. Yeah, to kind of produce that was huge for us. Um, but again, I kind of pushed the team. Whilst respecting kind of what had been done in the past very well, we wanted to make sure we were giving it our all and and not just dialing it in and playing it safe and like kind of sometimes did trying things differently uh within the kind of spirit of the relationship, which is great with the BBC, and that they were very good with us trying things different. It's not always easy. You look when when we watched the VTs uh a couple of days out, and I'm saying, look, can we just shift out music or can we kind of try something different here? And people have been working very hard on that, and and I bet you were popular, yeah. But but I think kind of when it's in our DNA that it's okay to challenge as long as it comes from the right place, yeah. Uh and we're all in it together and we're just trying to make the product better. Um, I think people might be frustrated and might find it hard in the moment, but ultimately if it's if it's for the interest of making the product better and improving everything, people buy into it. And I think that that was kind of something I learned from David. And David was a Formula One driver and he'd go out in free practice, come back and tell the engineers and and the team everything that was wrong, and then they go out again, and that then those things would be fixed and the car would go faster and it'd be sort of more grip in the corners, whatever it might be. And we've tried to kind of instill a culture of it's okay to feed back and tell us what's not right, as opposed to telling me what's right, and that that helps kind of find those marginal gains, create content that isn't just kind of um copy paste. Um and that's kind of I guess how we kind of operate.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

It's definitely got that edge, and I think that pursuit of excellence uh does require that. Well, I polish till the last minute if I can, and you do have to step away and say, no, that's it now to me, and that's the hardest part. You're working across F1, Paralympics cricket, women's rugby, and football, all very different audiences and expectations. From a Maverick mindset point of view, how would you balance innovation, new formats, remote production, digital content with the need to keep the heart of the sport authentic to the fans?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

I I think that's uh it's pretty straightforward. You've got to respect the product, right? The heritage that it comes with and and not interfere with what the core product is. It's kind of what you do around it and how you gently kind of test kind of the the kind of threshold of where you can push things through through to. And if you suddenly kind of rip it all up and and and try something different, and and you lose the kind of audience or you lose the kind of trust and and relationships with the athletes or the teams, or ultimately the commissioner and the broadcaster who's kind of paying you to do the work, you're never gonna get the job again. So you it there's a limit to how far you can push it, and you've got to take people on the journey with you. So whether it's it's getting the the the the team, the the the athlete uh to buy into kind of what the idea is, then that's that pre-kind of warning the commissioner that you're gonna try something different when you come on air. So you're not just kind of landing it with a big bang and a shock, you've you've got that buy-in as you go, and I I think we always try and do that rather than just think, okay, well, we know what's right. Actually, what does the what is the what does the commissioner want? What does the athlete want to do? And how do we go about kind of bringing that all together to feel like we're pushing it on?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Oh, it's enhancing definitely what's on the pitch or you know what's happening. I never forget uh when I was in ITV, a drama director, very big name, came in to do sports coverage, a football game, and he took the gallery and everything else, and I thought, oh yeah, we go. And uh he said, Right, I want a big close-up of the guy taking the penalty, I want a big close-up of the you know, the goalkeeper on beads of sweat, everything. And he missed the penalty because he didn't have a wide shot. He's trying to milk this drama that wasn't there. Do you mean you've got to have the wide shot? That's the thing. You know, you've got to respect the medium, and people at home want to see the structure. They want to see, but the storytelling on top of that, you could say that in the VT before, you don't need to. Speak of doing things differently. I know you share my passion and that of my son Oshan for pushing towards net zero broadcasting, with this track record of cutting plastic use and relying on rechargeable tech. You've already led the way in sustainability. How important do you think these things in net zero targets that is for the future of sports coverage?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I I think it's incredibly important, um, whether it's in sport, production generally, any genre we work in, um, I I think we've got a responsibility for for the next generation of people coming through to have a uh an environment, a world that is sustainable and allows kind of everyone to live in a way that this planet should be enjoyed, and that sounds quite kind of hippie, but we should be able to do what we're doing in a in a in a in a respectful way to the environment and the people and the the the kind of animals that live on it and and and kind of we we play a a kind of tiny part of the ecosystem. But if we can be finding innovation that leads to a cleaner way of producing, then so be it. And and we've done okay, but there's people like Sky who are doing wonderful things with with their initiatives, um, and some other production companies are doing incredibly well. But we've we've done what we can and we're doing a little bit on that front. And our um breakthrough was really within uh remote production, and uh even before COVID, we'd pioneered remote production before it became a necessity. So when it COVID hit, we were very very au fay with kind of going straight into remote production because we'd tried it with Cell GP, who were also forward-thinking, also uh very, very driven by sustainability and and kind of trying to do things differently. And and we learned from them. It wasn't suddenly us that came up with the idea, we were almost inspired by their relentless kind of questioning of can this be done differently, which played into kind of our strengths, and and actually uh yeah, we partnered with people that allowed us to kind of uh cover the Sydney Cell GP uh event in the harbour, but actually remote product uh remotely produced from London, um, which had never been done at that point.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

And just for our listeners and uh viewers to understand, this means not having 200 people on site in a sporting event. It's about having maybe 100 or 50 and everybody else back at base where they live. So they're not travelling, they're not consuming, they're not taking hotels or you know, flights, everything else. That's the remote essence of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, the the the you're not you're shipping less kit, you're you're flying less people, um people are also spending more time with their families, um, which I think's also got to be factored in. It's the front end that that remains the same. So you still need your cameras, you still need your sound operators uh to capture the the action, but it's all fed back to one remote production facility where you have all your technical staff racking the cameras, doing the sound mixing, cutting the cameras, all of that sort of stuff that the production team kind of operates from back there as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

I really hope we can go on this journey together because that's exactly where we're at at the moment. We've got the largest fleet of outside broadcast vehicles in Wales, but we are not resting there. My son Oshan, it's uncanny this interview, because yesterday we went to the factory to see the 300 kilowatt hour battery we bought. I asked the technician, I shouldn't have asked him really because he was a real geek. I said, How many mobile phones can you charge with it? He said 17,500. Oh wow flipping. And and then they said, Well, you could power 30 homes for a day on it, or uh one home for a month. But for outside broadcast, we can power our trucks for 33 hours and it's also silent, but that's where we need to go. It's a big investment, but who's gonna pay the cost otherwise? The climate? Do you mean that's what I feel? And what's nice for me is that I went with my son Oshan and um he was on the Eco Council in school because he got a lot of stick for it because it was, you know, but he cares about the oil. He went off to study mechanical engineering, uh, masters in in Birmingham. And I'm thrilled that his generation, to your point earlier, do care, do see it. You and I probably were part of that get there fast, you know. It wasn't us, we didn't understand, we didn't know the facts at the time, but this next generation really sees it. So I think that's hugely beneficial for the future. Uh but we not we can't get there quick enough.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Agreed. Yeah, I can I completely agree and admire people and companies who are doing more than we are, because that inspires us to be better and pushes us. Um, we can't be brilliant in everything we do. Um, and we need competition to push us on, and it's great to see people doing um wonderful things in this this space.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

What I couldn't get over was it's recycling on a grand scale. In this factory, there were they're all Tesla cars, so our batteries four Teslas on top of each other. Oh wow, effectively, with incredible tech inside it, and you can speak to it anywhere in the planet. And you know, I was inspired, you know, with the reuse of material and that because we have to do that as well. Right then.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Uh sorry, I just I just could say it's I love the way you're talking about it as if it's a new child that you've just kind of uh kind of bought into the world. It's uh you can see the kind of passion and the the kind of warmth again for it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah, we did this huge event last year. We do it every year the year they said, and we we measured that we'd gone through 65 tons of CO2 in the compound with the 130 staff. We dropped off 30 in terms of remote production, but still 65 tons. That's the equivalent of flying to Australia nine times or going around the equator seven times. So Oshan and the team in Ivango managed to bring in hydrogen battery year after 15 tons. And then we weren't even trying Sunil. So next year we're going for net zero and we'll bring the headcount down, we'll hire locally. We're doing a lot more remote production. So that but it's challenging, but it's also a you know a thrill to do because I know you like a challenge, and the company broadcast centre, which we'll come on to, is a huge challenge which you pulled off with that ethos in mind. So I'm sure you were like a child in Christmas when that was born as well. But I'll come on to that. Um Whisper is also known for this culture, that people-first, diverse, inclusive setup that keeps winning best place to work awards. In your own words, what is the Maveric mindset behind that culture? What do you believe about people that maybe not every CEO does?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

I have a belief that you come into work because you have to, but what you want to do is flip that. You want people to come to work because they want to. Um, and so therefore, you need to create an environment where everyone feels safe and everyone feels um kind of respected, all the basics in life that people want really. And and look, we're not perfect. Well, I'm sure there'll be people who've worked with us that are not happy, but the intention is always there to be kind of a good place to work, and just the being nice to people, treating people fairly is what we aspire to. Coupled with that is creating an environment where you reflect society. So if you have people coming in from different backgrounds, they can see themselves in other people, which is going to create a more harmonious, joined up team, and people feel at home. Now that's great because it makes everyone feel good and and and want to come to the office, but then I think it has a uh uh huge impact in in our output as well, because you end up having people from different backgrounds coming up with different ways of thinking, solving problems differently because of their background, their lived experiences. Diversity isn't just about kind of gender or skin colour or sexuality, it's kind of lived experiences, and that's why I'm I'm a huge believer in um diversity because ideas come from anywhere, whether it's kind of our runner who's day one in the business or CEO who's been running it for 15 years, ideas can come from anywhere, and it's kind of what you've seen on the way into work, what you've spoken about the night before with your family. Um all those things help shape different views and different opinions, and and kind of yeah, like I said, we want to uh we want to reflect society so when you're getting the training to work, you see kind of all manner of people walks of life, um, and what we want to do is be a reflection of that journey, really.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Very smart because I always think of everybody's brain and that resource. It doesn't matter if it's the accounts clerk or the cameraman or the the ideas come from everywhere, and sometimes they don't maybe the cap the technical person doesn't know how to write that idea, but somebody else does. Yeah. But they get you to that place of that idea because their life experience is different to your experience. So it's a territory we haven't thought of, or whatever. I love that. And personally, as a founder, how has your mindset evolved alongside Whisper's growth from three founders and a few jobs to a group with offices all over the world and a lot of staff? What did Sunil the producer have to let go of to become Sunil the CEO?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Um, that's a really hard question because probably a bit like yourself, you you look back and you go, How on earth have we got to this point? And it's not as if one day I woke up and said, look, I'm gonna put a suit jacket on and I'm gonna dress differently, I'm gonna come into work differently. It's just evolved over time, and and I think you get wiser obviously with age, um, but you also get learned to kind of just be a bit smarter with your time about where you can add value and where you have to empower people to get on and and pick up the reins and let them forge a way of doing things. So actually, as much as I'm love the creative process, there are and I can add value, but there are better creatives in in the business than me. There are people who are better at the financial side, the the planning side. So you try and bring in people who are better than you and in areas and let them get on with it whilst trying to kind of manage the overall kind of vision, kind of mindset and and kind of way of working, and then kind of keeping that drive and energy and positivity around what you're doing, even when it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

You talked about managing your time there. You got your hands on at the British Grand Prix last year, stepping in as a VT coordinator, as part of the crew delivering for Channel Four. What was the reaction when you put your hand up and said, I can do that? And honestly, now how daunting was it to be back in the hot seat? And secondly, how valuable was it? Not only as a way to cover a need, but to show leadership and maintain a hands-on and deep understanding of the business. Yeah, what did you take away from that experience?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Oh, so much. It was actually um it was a it was a very moving experience for lots of different reasons. But it it stemmed from being in the office, talking to my team and understanding there was an issue where we had a busy weekend doing lots of kind of production that weekend, and one of the key roles, the VT Cohort, on the on the live um Grand Prix weekend, the usual person that that did that role couldn't do it that weekend and was pre-booked somewhere else. And we had a we had a gap, and actually that was one of my favourite roles because I just enjoyed being in the heartbeat of the production. I was never a director, I was never a program editor, but I spent a long time in VT Cohort. Um, and I loved it. And I put my hand up and I said to Ann Somerset, who I've worked with for many a year, I'll do that. And she looked at me and was like, Are you sure? And uh no one believed me. No one believed me. They thought I was joking, and I and and then and then after a while they were like, No, someone's actually blocked it out in his diary and he's he's gonna do it. And then then the word got around the office, it got around the production team, it got around the talent, and everyone was like a little bit on eggshells. And from my perspective, I'd seen a Lufthansa uh CEO do something similar where he went back to the shop floor and actually went onto a flight as a flight attendant and served and did all the roles that you'd expect of a flight attendant, and it was kind of his story about connecting with the business, showing that you still understand, that you care, and in this instance, being a team player, we talk about being team players, and when there was a moment of need and we needed to step up, I actually stepped up and kind of gave it a go, even though there was a lot to lose. But I thought it was a great opportunity to make some content to show people kind of what their role was. I also mentored Daniela, who was just coming into the industry and kind of as her first British Grand Prix, and kind of really kind of showed her what I knew. And that knowledge transfer was kind of something that actually you thought, oh wow, this is pretty special, kind of helping someone coming through the journey. And I've been fortunate where people have helped me along my way, and I feel it was good to repay that and also learn what we weren't doing right. There were certain things that I picked up from that experience. I thought, well, hang on, this could make the experience much better for the team or certain individuals if we actually elevated this element of uh the production workflow or how people turn up. And um, yeah, it was uh it was fun, it was um very intense. Uh, and I'm just yeah, I'm I'm so happy I had the opportunity and people trusted me to do it, and the team were uh at the end of the day uh okay with me kind of going back into that role.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

I love that story, and I tried to get on the shop floor as much as I can, direct lead, and I get the same as you the buzz and also the little bit of a shock. When you were walking into the truck, the steps into the truck, we did you have any second thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

I uh look, that that morning was on the on on race day, uh it was kind of pretty daunting. Thankfully it wasn't a truck, we were doing it from uh the CBC uh and it was all remote, so that that helped. I think it was it was about shutting off all the other noises that you have going on um as a as a kind of leader in the business. And it was like, look, my job today is to run VT uh and be part of the team that delivers the British Grand Prix. And and once I'd got my head round, don't answer emails, don't worry about the meetings on Monday, just deliver a clean show. And and I loved it, I loved it, and um yeah, it kind of took me back to the kind of uh the early days of my career when I was in running VT and and kind of um yeah, it was very nostalgic, but uh yeah, just very happy.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Jonathan Davis is um number 10 for Wales. I've got a show here for ten 20 years. I came up with a format and we didn't have a director that day, so I said I'd direct it. But to your point about focus, so I was in the read-through and um Jeffy looked at me and said, Be where you're at, because I was trying to be the CEO and the director. You can't. You have to respect that job. And that's one lesson that I learned is that be where you're at is something I try to do in whatever I'm doing now. And he said that that's how he manages things when he was kicking a penalty for a major rugby league final is Be Where You're At. Don't think about crowd or anything, just be there. So let's shift into what we call the Maverick Mechanics, how it all works under the bonnet. Now, here in Wales, Whisper Cumbrie and the Cumbrie Broadcast Centre in Cardiff have become a real engine room. You talked about it earlier with this event. Explain how it came about and what what is it about it that's so celebrated?

SPEAKER_01 36:53

I sat down in a meeting maybe eight years ago and um I asked my team at the time, look, what would our peers least like us to do? And um I remember Kay Satley, who works with us, phenomenally talented lady, said, Well, I think people will find it hard if we kind of open uh uh an office in the the nations because there was a lot of investment from the broadcasters and requirements to put things into the um the the nations and we kind of thought, well actually it's a really good idea, but it's gonna take a lot of hard work, and and I was like, look, let's just get on and do it and then make it happen, as we say. We went to Scotland, Wales, went to uh uh Northern Ireland and and we settled on Wales because we had a fundamental belief that the Welsh loved sport and there was a deep-rooted skill set in the region for TV production and um it could have been it could be kind of developed, nurtured and and and grown. And we were lucky we worked with some people early on, and then I find I finally met Caris, who runs Whisper Cumry for us. When you talk about energy and putting people around you with drive and ambition and lift you up, Caris was that individual, and and she's a force of nature in a positive way and makes me kind of elevate everything I do. And we we brought her in um and and kind of she had a company at the time. We brought her in to whisper and thought let's get behind it and kind of try and and go from two or three people to what where we are now 30, and we've got 30 people from the region that have kind of we've bought into the business. We've got a few people that have moved from London to Cardiff, um, and we've got a really sustainable model that allows young people to come in, learn, stay with us, and and then go out to other parts of the industry. So it works unbelievably well for us. Um very proud of what we've managed to do and how we've kind of impacted the the economy positively, how we've kind of given opportunities to people, how we've brought international sport into the region, and how actually kind of our future growth is going to be very much focused around the opportunities in Wales. We're we I was very fortunate to be invited to the the investment summit um at Celtic Manor recently and and kind of just being around the likes of uh the first minister or Lord Mervyn Davis or Karis uh uh kind of spending two days with her just kind of filled me with kind of ideas and and kind of energy to kind of give keep going. And um I think there's uh there's so much that we can do here. Um there's so many good people uh that we can connect with and support and and bring through that this is this is a huge, huge kind of um hugely important part of our our future vision.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Huge kudos to you for and the team for building you know real capacity, you know, proper teams, proper facilities, rather than just sticking a Welsh postcode on the website on flying in crews from London. I am so glad, and so many of us you know have applauded the centre. You know, otherwise it would have been what we call the panda principle eats, shoots, and leaves. I certainly eat. So for people outside the world, remote production hub can sound a bit abstract, but in in practical maverick moment terms, it what does the broadcast centre actually enable you to do differently compared to what you did before? And also the what's the quality of work that's come from there?

SPEAKER_01 40:22

Um well, I guess it comes back to that sustainability and and uh cost efficiency. Um, it allows us to um not fly so many people to site, therefore, there's a cost saving, therefore, there's also a human capital saving in terms of people spending more time with their loved ones, which is often a challenge in TV when you're flying around the world doing late night shifts in hotel rooms. It allows people to be at home, it allows us to kind of double down on the talent based in this region um and kind of pool it and have um uh a kind of catalogue and a volume of work that can kind of sustain um a kind of an infrastructure and an ecosystem of people down here. In terms of the quality of work, the kind of way of measuring it is people at home shouldn't be able to tell the difference. You shouldn't know whether it's a remote production when you're watching it on on TV or an app or or kind of um a device at home, it just should look like any other production. But the reality is you're you're saving a huge amount of um uh emissions and and kind of saving money as well.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

Well, I'll be honest with you, when I heard that the Paralympics are coming from Cardiff, I did second take. I mean, because it's a huge statement, you know, and and and then F1. Yeah, you know, it's it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

But I I think it again it comes down to like a lot of people like, oh, we can't do that. And it's like, well, there's no reason we can't do that. We've got just got to get the right people with the right mindset, give them the the kind of target and let them go at it, and and kind of way smarter than me, kind of people with with technical experience and and know-how of how to make these things happen, and they did it, and that gave everyone confidence that actually, okay, well, we'll start with the Paralympics, um, but then we'll bring the Formula One here. Or actually, there was the weekend I was in uh VT for the British Grand Prix, we're doing the British Grand Prix, we were doing uh India versus England Test match highlights, which ran late and um was a tasty uh on air experience for the cricket team. Uh, we were doing work around the British and Irish lines as well. So we had three different productions all kind of coming out of that facility, which if you thought about that eight years ago, you go, there's no way that would happen. But we're very fortunate that we've got partners such as Channel 4, partners such as um BBC Sport that have really got behind um us setting up and and building a remote production facility in Cardiff and and really kind of helped kind of funnel not just low-level sport but the most important projects they have are coming out of um our broadcast centre now. So massive kudos to Karis and the team and Beth and Evans and and everyone who helped build that and and the team that run it now. And again, it's just created more jobs for people, it's created opportunities for people to come in and learn about production as well. So it's a it's an unbelievable asset for the region, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Oh huge. Do you find yourself as a business leader? Yeah, if somebody says you can't, then you are gonna say watch me because that's the best thing I find is somebody says you can't do this. I'm thinking, well, I think you can.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Absolutely. I think um I don't necessarily think it's healthy, um, but that that gives me the fire in my belly and it creates that kind of almost um devil on the shoulder, which which you're fighting constantly and going, Well, that person said I couldn't do it. Well, come on, let's let's go off and do it. And whether that was when we were just started off as a production company doing branded content around Formula One to then going off and doing all the sport you've mentioned, lots of people said just stick to branded content or stick to sport. And then I remember being at Channel Four, who were wonderful partners and And own uh part owners of the business helped us grow. I remember walking in and saying, 'Look, we're gonna look at documentaries and we'll do entertainment unscripted,' and they were like, 'Just kind of stick to what you're doing.' And at that point, I I remember vividly saying, 'Look, I think it's probably now time for us to find a new partner because our ambition is here and we're not gonna have kind of uh any limitations in what we can or can't do.' Yeah, it was it was always that point of wanting to prove other people uh that we can do it and prove to myself that it can be done as well.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

That sounds very familiar. Full disclosure, my company Avanti, provides outside broadcast facilities for super rugby cymri for your Wales office, and we work closely with the Wales Broadcast Centre and enjoy that greatly. At the heart of that, as you said, is Carais Owens, a force of nature MD at Whisper, also another force of nature, Jamie Mackage, the head of production there. You've built some other mavericks, really. I mean, do you know these are people that you empower, which I think is fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Yeah, I I don't necessarily think we've built them, but we've we've certainly empowered them, right? These people always had that talent there. It's about unlocking that talent, giving them the platform, and taking a risk on people maybe other people wouldn't have taken a risk on. And just because you haven't got that traditional playbook or experience or CV, uh, I'd never run a business before, and I'm now running a business that's doing pretty well. So that also allows me to kind of take risks on people that I see have the right mindset, have the right passion, have the right kind of ability to communicate and be nice to one another, um, and also run at the pace that I run at. And you that's what you want. You want a team that it will kind of run with you and and follow you over the uh over the top if if you have to go into kind of tough situations as as you often have to. And um, I'm very, very fortunate that we've got the likes of Karis, likes of Jamie, and the wider team uh in all areas because it allows you to then go, actually, do you know what they're just they're just getting on with how we want to run and operate the business. And you you you just see you look back and go, I'm very, very fortunate to to lead a team of Mavericks, as you say, in their own rights, who are doing phenomenal things, and we've nurtured and developed and backed talent that wouldn't not necessarily have been an automatic choice for that role in other places, and and I love that.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

But you see yourself in them, didn't you? You see the self if you've given the material the choice uh you know to back someone with ambition. I've seen Caris just grow and flourish, and it's been lovely, you know, to to witness that. We've both contributed to the Pact Made in Wales film, which is all about content genuinely rooted here. When you think about Westbrook Hemery's place in that ecosystem, what do you want your Maveric mechanics to achieve in the long run for the business and for Wales?

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Uh I think it's about not just making local content. Uh we want to be kind of um local but global, uh, is is the saying. But being able to bring the world's biggest productions to to Wales is what we want to do, um, and then create an ecosystem that is sustainable in terms of bringing in talent that we train up, put on our productions, and then can go off into the wider network of production. So just kind of creating that kind of model of being able to train people, give them opportunities, and then let them fly and go and find their own way through it. So that's what we're gearing up and working towards. Um, and and that is a it's a great kind of vision to have.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

I I'm gonna lob in a bit of a personal twist here. You don't know this, but I actually gave Steve Jones, who fronts your F1 coverage, his first presenting job back in the day. He was working in a factory and I think and he came in. He was the 200th that day. Wow. And you know, a bit rough around the edges, but he had it. When you look at presenters like Steve now fronting huge shows, how much satisfaction do you get from backing talent on the camera as well, not just off the camera?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Uh uh huge. When we've taken kind of punts on talent that again would not be the usual pick from the usual people, and that's where diversity comes in. If you've got people from different backgrounds who are prepared to take a different risk profile on different presenters, reporters, uh, commentators, that's when you unlock some um fantastic talent. I'm not going to take the credit for Steve Jones on Formula One. What we did was we put the infrastructure and support around Steve to make sure he didn't fail. The learning curve for him was tough because there's a lot to learn in in motorsport, but the team really kind of supported him through that. And and um it's incredibly proud when you see Steve or or Rose, um, who we use Rose Ailing Ellis, who was on East Enders and one strictly come dancing, um, who uh is deaf. And what I wanted to do was have a different role model on TV for the Paralympics. And I said, look, why don't we put Rose in a in a live environment? And everyone's like, How are we gonna do that? She's deaf, and how are we gonna be able to kind of interact with her and and kind of tell her when kind of what to go to a break or the race is about to start? And um, I said, That that's the challenge. I'm giving you kind of this is kind of where we want to go, and I know you'll get that because that's how we think, and then you you are best in class at what you do, and you'll find the solution. And and credit to the team that delivered the Paralympics, they put an environment around her, they came up with workflows that allowed her to be a pundit on live sport, and it was phenomenal, and and that to me is what we have the power to do to make those decisions that put role models in front of you that will inspire kids who just didn't think they had the chance or the opportunity to do it, and that's where uh yeah, we can make great content, that's what I'm paid to do, that's what we're paid to do. But it's all the fringe stuff that we can do that will leave a bit of a legacy and a lasting mark.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

We do need broadcasters, channel 4, BBC, you mentioned, to also see the need to gravitate outside London. My daughter worked in the London office until you know the direction of travel was to where you know in the regions and nations, which is incredibly important, and now she can raise a family here, and she's you know delighted because the quality of work is here, the fact that you're doing you know big stuff. We couldn't do that before. Isn't it fantastic? I think that the broadcasters realised the strength in the legions.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Uh absolutely the talent's always been here, yeah. Like the the passion's always been here, it's just the opportunities haven't um necessarily. Um, and now we've kind of broken through that. I think it'll be much easier to bring more and more uh global events here and more and more global talent that want to be based in in Wales, and then therefore that creates role models that people are going to learn from, and that's that that can only be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Definitely. Time now for our Mavic Maxims, the short, sharp round where we get your gut answers. First thing that comes to mind. First up, what's a piece of sports TV, a match, a documentary, an opening sequence that made you think that's the standard, that's the bar we have to hit?

SPEAKER_01 51:10

I watch lots of content and um and try and learn from different genres, and it's like people know when I've been watching TV, because I'll come into the office and say, Oh, I've just seen this. Do you want to why don't we pick that up from this genre? So a bit to your story about the drama director. Okay, he got it wrong or she got it wrong in terms of not having the wide shot, but actually the learning of building the tension to how a drama director would do it, to what a sport director would do it, is is a good philosophy. You're learning from other people in other genres, and that's what I love is actually taking things from other people and seeing what other genres are doing and applying it to what we do, and that's where actually this whole kind of philosophy of being multi-genre, we do documentaries, we do entertainment, esports, live events, branded content, sport, each of those genres feeds one another with ideas and it allows us to be kind of really broad in our thinking and not just be very, very tunnel vision about documentaries alone or sport alone.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

Second, in TV and production, there's a lot of conventional wisdom, as they say. What's the one bit of business advice you hear all the time that you actually think is nonsense?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Um, it has to be stay in your lane. Growth doesn't come from playing it safe. You've got to kind of stretch out beyond kind of what the comfort zone is, and and people who who who are just too often kind of very safe players just want you to kind of tell you, oh, just keep doing what you're doing. Then it's like nonsense. Absolute nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

There are times you need to stay in your lane if you're doing something focused, but uh you know, life is too short. I mean, I've got things to do. I mean, I'm sure to hear you say that is a huge encouragement to me.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

But but it creates that excitement, doesn't it? It's it kind of gives you the it makes things exciting and and and feel that you can go off and do other stuff and learn and and and keep it kind of fresh. Like if you keep doing the same thing every day, you're gonna get bored very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Oh, tell me about it. Thirdly, uh long production day, late finish, early call the next morning. What's your non-negotiable bit of kit app or habit that keeps you functioning?

SPEAKER_01 53:15

I I think kind of more so as I've got older, I've I've really kind of focused on kind of well-being and mental health, and and uh I've got a whoop and and kind of a lot of people around me will probably be bored of m hearing me talk about kind of uh the data that kicks off, but that helps me keep very focused on on kind of how I am looking after myself because it's no different to kind of a car. If you put the wrong kind of petrol in a car, it's not gonna operate. So kind of um I I've focused much more on managing kind of my mind and my body to allow me to perform, no, I mean kind of perform in uh an athlete sense, but just kind of turn up to work and feel kind of charged out for the day and not be tired because I haven't slept properly or haven't slept enough, and it's it's it it's been kind of quite transformational in that sense.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

And canily in the first episode of Um Inside the Maverick Mind, Alad Miles, CEO of IntelliStack, shared that he thinks that CEO stands for Chief Energy Officer. That that you've got to be looking after yourself to do your best game, to see the market and the energy of the market is one of the things I was most inspired with, and and seeing and hearing you say that is just reaffirming the fact that if you're not right, nobody's right.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Yeah, and look, that that doesn't mean you can't switch off and have fun, and and kind of I've enjoyed a lot of fun over the years, and um I've worked hard, play hard, uh mentality has has always been there, and and I think it's I'm just entering a different phase of my career and life where I I just need to manage myself and for me to kind of deliver my job and and I the responsibility is huge now. We've got over 300 employees, we've got offices around the world, we've got multiple clients. You need to be kind of on it, and and if I'm not prepared for a call to happen at any given point and kind of things could go wrong. So uh yeah, there's much more focus on managing myself as opposed to just enjoying myself.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

You've been a runner, a producer, and now a CEO. Which role do you secretly miss the most when you're in back-to-back meetings?

SPEAKER_01 55:20

I love being in an environment where you're around the table and you're coming up with ideas and you're taking a bit from here and there and you're bouncing off on another. We've had it just now. We've got um we're we're redoing our brand film, and um I'm working with our creative director who's super experienced, worked with him for years, worked with him at the BBC, highly regarded. And every time he walks past my office, I'm like, Rich, come on here, let's let's talk about that brand film. And and everyone's like, You just love that, don't you? You just love kind of and and and that's why I think we are who we are, because I'm not a CEO who is from a financial background, I'm not a CEO who's gone through business school or or kind of necessarily the conventional room. I'm a founder CEO, loved making content, and therefore I still get passionate about what we output, whether it's on sports personality of the year or uh Tom Brady documentary for Amazon or a brand film and and kind of where I get the opportunity to kind of really sit down with people and bounce off people and come up with ideas and then see it come to fruition and people kind of then elevate the idea is is where I see a lot of kind of pleasure. People who can do anything, right? It's just whether you they have they get the moment where they take the opportunity, and it's and that's what it's about. It's like keep saying take that shot, and um where other people stand still, kind of like for me, standing still is going backwards, right? So you've got to keep moving, keep that momentum going forward, uh, and give it a go. And and that's across anything in life, like you've got to give it a go, and um that's kind of what you want kind of people around you to kind of um take on.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

With your restless nature of reinvention, you approach sport wider now, don't you? You're looking for different funding models and mechanisms. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Yeah, look, I think um it is getting tougher, there's more people um producing and budgets are getting tighter, so you've got to think about how do we protect the business? How can we make sure the business is still relevant in three to five years' time? And there's nothing kind of wrong with what we're doing at the moment, but actually to protect us going forward, what other elements do we need to add? So we've gone from doing branded content to sport, to docs, to entertainment, uh to esports, uh, to live events, and that's kind of given us diversity of portfolio and security in a in a content market that if we'll if the ad market crashes, then kind of the docs market might be flying or sport as a consistency, and that mix has really protected us. But actually, going forward, as it gets even more unstable with kind of um linear declining and streaming kind of on the rise, I think for us it's about what other assets and and skills can we offer our partners to go deeper with them. Um, so uh that's kind of where we're looking at what who else can we bring in to make sure we're offering more to our more value to our partners.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Future proofing the business is a constant job of a CEO, and I think that that mindset to think differently, because there's a landscape of broadcast at the moment we've never seen before. We're pivoting in Avanti into different directions, and you've got to not stay in your lane to do that, haven't you? You've got to be able to embrace new ideas which you have.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Sometimes you've got to force yourself to think differently and uh act differently, um, and that's what's gonna um lead to to kind of evolution. Um, and we've got to continue to evolve, otherwise we'll go backwards.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

What's one small daily ritual, could be a walk, a coffee, a playlist, that helps you reset your Maverick mind when everything is moving at speed?

SPEAKER_01 58:54

I I'm very fortunate that I've got uh wonderful kids and family that will call me out and um call me out on any BS. Uh and likewise my my best friends speak to them every day, pretty much in the car. Um, unless I've got morning calls or evening calls, I always call my mates and they keep me very much grounded and rem uh remind me that I'm just a little kid from Twickenham that grew up and um uh got into TV and sport, and that that that's it's quite a nice place to be when when you get grounded like that because it just keeps you uh very much kind of uh rooted in your your background and doesn't let you get too high on your own supply. Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 59:35

Let's get into your Maverick moment and some of the big decisions around it. Nobody builds something at this scale without taking a few hits. What challenge or even a mistake that really stung at the time but taught you a lesson you still lean on today?

SPEAKER_01 59:51

I've made loads of mistakes. I make mistakes every day, and I think, as I said earlier, I think it's about not making those mistakes over and over again. Just learn from what what that failure point is. I think kind of hiring like often the people you have around you uh and over a period of time, um, I'd rather that hire uh good people than um uh exceptional dickheads as we call them. It's better to just have good, hardworking people that you can kind of get to a certain point on skill set and experience than having kind of a few exceptional people that are just gonna rip the culture apart and make it not a fun place to work. Um like I said, I want our environment to be a place people want to come in, not have to come in, and and that stems from who you have around you and what you what you tolerate becomes acceptable. Very particular on the environment we create, how we kind of respect our space and make sure people feel like they're coming into a tidy workplace or a clean workplace or a a kind of just environment they can do their best work.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

On the flip side of that, we all get told what we should do, keep the staff job, don't rock the boat, don't take on too much risk. You're the opposite of that. Can you think of a moment where you were given perfectly sensible advice that you should have followed and you're really glad you ignored it?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

I started my career at IMG as an intern. Uh I then went to ITV Sport, ITV Digital, um, and the launch of ITV Digital, which famously crashed and burnt after a year, and I was made redundant very early on in my career, and and I didn't have the experience, I didn't have the network, I didn't have kind of any of the opportunities I've got now in life. Um, and I was I was petrified, I didn't have a job, didn't know what I was gonna do next. So I decided to rethink and I um applied to be a police officer. I just thought I've had enough, I just want a secure job, I want a secure salary, and know that for the next 30, 40 years I'll I'll be okay. I'm not gonna you don't get made redundant from the police. Um went to Hendon, did did all the police training, did the physical, did all the kind of the exams, and had a start date. And then a friend of mine who I'd worked with at ITV Digital um phoned me up and said, Look, uh I'm leaving my position. Do you want to come take the job? And um I went for the interview. I was fortunate to get the job, um, and I had that decision to make of do I give it one more go? And I gave it a go. And kind of you think, Christ, what would have it been if I hadn't? And at the end of the day, I I wouldn't have known. I would have been a police officer and doing something in in that field and and hopefully enjoying it. But you again you've got to live and die by your decisions, and thankfully I made that right decision at the right time.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

I'm glad you did, and 300 people in employment are glad you did as well. But sometimes you have to reach rock bottom, don't you, to get to the point where your trajectory starts there.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

I think people just look at kind of what the end product is, and anything worth doing takes time and and and requires a lot of hard work and giving up so much. So, kind of those nights out with friends early on, or weekends away with family or or or friends, they're the things I've had to give up over a long period of time to make sure we've got to where we've got to. And I've been very fortunate that actually having had to give up too much for my kids because that's probably the most important thing. It takes a lot to kind of build something, and and that's what I try and stress to my kids is if you want to give it a go, you've got to be all in. There's no point in in trying to half bake it. Um, so um, yeah, whatever you whatever you go for, give it give it your all. It's not often about how smart you are or how experienced you are, it's just about when you see the opportunity going for it and giving it your best shot, and that's kind of um where I've always kind of just keeps coming back to kind of taking taking that shot and and I have and it some have paid off and some haven't, and it's not one single moment. I get I guess meeting Jake and David, they've been phenomenal partners, friends, supporters, and people I look up to, learn from all the time and challenge me in the right way. And they've believed, and I and that's that's kind of one thing. Kind of I've always had them around me where earlier on in my career I didn't necessarily have people around me that believed in my ability. Jake and David have always believed in my ability, and that that sense of confidence that gives you is phenomenal. Um it makes you feel ten foot tall when when they call you and I I ask what do you think about this? And like, son of what you just back your intuition, back your gut. You've never let us down. So um they're they've they've been phenomenal in that. So I g I'd say kind of coming together with them and the way they've they've let me empowered me, but also backed me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

You need champions, you need somebody that sees what you don't see in yourself sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. What did you learn from Eddie Jordan?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Eddie was unbelievable. He he had more front than anyone. He would ask the question, he would push the limits of what was being done at every given opportunity, and and and he was never afraid, completely fearless, very much about getting it done there and then, but also was incredibly kind and generous. This belief that to be successful you have to be uh a tough character or or not particularly warm or or likable. Eddie was the opposite, he was incredibly tough um in in business, but also generous and loving and kind and and funny and warm. And um I learned so much from him, and and often actually in the last year it's been tough for for lots of different reasons and and kind of uh I've found it hard for for various things and and kind of always come back to what would Eddie say uh and and kind of he's look got lots of little lines that I can't necessarily repeat, um, but I have them kind of uh circulating in my mind, and I think, yeah, I'm just gonna channel my inner Eddie here.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

If you zoom right out over the whole journey from runner to BBC producer, co founder, London to Wales, and now in the US, what do you think has been your best decision? And what would you honestly enough to call

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Your worst best decision um giving it a go. Um it would have been easy, and there were people at the time that said don't don't leave your staff job. There were two big production companies that pretty much owned the space. I remember going into channel four saying, Look, Endemol, we've tried it, everyone's tried it. What makes you think that you can do it by yourself or with Jake and David? And um I I I was just kind of just had a belief that if I put the right people around me uh and we did things a little bit differently, um, we'd be okay. So kind of giving it a go would probably be that best decision.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

We always talk about the Maverick mentor, the role you play for other people. You've built teams that stretch across different countries, genres, and sports. For someone listening who wants to build something of their own in TV, sport, or any creative industry for that matter. What's one piece of advice you'd really want them to take to heart?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

I think trust your gut, always trust your gut. Actually, some of the worst decisions I've made is where I've listened to other people and I I kind of had uh a deep-rooted kind of gut feeling that actually I should do this or I shouldn't do it, and um I haven't been confident enough um to listen to my own kind of uh voice. So yeah, trust your own judgment, listen to other people, take it all in, but but go with kind of what you've deep down believe in, and um uh yeah, I think that that would that would be it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

That's so true. It sounds kind of simple, but sometimes part of it is actually just simplifying it. There's no kind of magic wand here, it's it's just some simple basics of how to kind of operate, kind of allow you to kind of achieve magical things.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

But turning down the noise sometimes is what I have to do to focus on what my inner voice is telling me, my gut is telling me if this is right or wrong. I've had more right than wrong by listening to my myself. Do you mean all the experience over the years? We always finish with this line, so Sonny complete the sentence for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

A maverick is someone who takes risks and live with the consequences. That's profound. I like that one. You've got to be able to own your decisions and and front up if it goes wrong, um, but also kind of share the share the joys of um success as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:21

When you look back one day at the shows, the big nights, the teams in Cardiff, London beyond, what do you hope people will say Whisper stood for?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:30

If there's one thing uh that I'd want people to think of Whisper and what we've created is just a good bunch of people doing good things. Just kind of that like the basics, kind of great, great product, great people, um, great environment. That's kind of what we aspire to. We don't always hit it, but that's kind of what I'd want people to think of what we've done, like doing things in the right way, having fun along the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

I've certainly experienced that and long may I continue, I would say. Very much. Sunil, it's been an absolute pleasure. I'm so thrilled to have you with us. From shaking the tree as a young runner to building whisper into one of the most exciting production companies in Europe, I think more than anything else, investing in Welsh talent and making a significant difference in our communities. People talk about it, but they don't do it. You did it. You and your team did it, of course. And I think that team has shown through your interview with me the importance of that wider collective group. So thank you. Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. And to everyone listening, remember the world doesn't change by playing it safe. Stay sharp, stay bold, and keep that Maverick mindset alive. We'll see you next time on Inside the Maverick Mind.