Ep 9 | James Sills | Inside the Maverick Mind

Inside the Maverick Mind | James Sills — The Choirestarter: On Fear, Belonging & Why Everyone Can Sing

What if the most powerful tool for connection, wellbeing, and culture in your workplace isn't a strategy, a workshop, or a wellbeing app - but singing?

James Sills is the man they call the Choirestarter. A musician, author, facilitator and founder of Sofa Singers - the online singing community that launched in lockdown, broke the Zoom room on day one, made the six o'clock news reaching 17 million people, and earned a Prime Minister's Award. 590 live sessions later, it's still going. Because the need hasn't gone away.

In this episode we go deep on why James believes every single one of us is born a singer - and what it actually takes to help people believe that about themselves. We talk about Bantam of the Opera, the Bradford City fans choir he built from scratch that sang on the pitch at Valley Parade, performed for the King, appeared on BBC Sports Personality of the Year, and is now the subject of a BBC One film. We talk about what it means to lead without ego, to make belonging your life's work, and to build communities that outlast you.

James also opens up about the dark year that taught him the lesson every leader needs to hear: you can't pour from an empty cup.

In this episode:

• Why singing is the fastest way to bond a group of strangers (Oxford University's Icebreaker Effect)
• How James gets a room full of sceptics singing - without them realising it
• What Sofa Singers taught him about the global hunger for connection
• The message from an IVF patient that changed everything
• Why he walked away from a safe teaching career - and never looked back
• What "finding your tribe" really means in the age of loneliness
• His maverick moment: conducting the BBC Philharmonic with 50 football fans

🎙️ Inside the Maverick Mind is the podcast exploring the mindset, moments and maverick moves behind extraordinary lives.

📖 James's book: Do Sing — Reclaim Your Voice, Find Your Singing Tribe 🌐 Sofa Singers: [sofasingers.com] 🎵 Bantam of the Opera: 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Most people think singing belongs to singers. Our guest thinks it belongs in living rooms, football stadiums, and even boardrooms. He started the Sofa Singers in lockdown, turning strangers on Zoom into a global choir and earning a Prime Minister's award for it also. He leads Bantam of the Opera, a Bradford City fans choir that sang on the pitch at Fahley Parade, performed for the king, and is now on BBC Sports Personality of the Year and in the BBC One film Sing When You're Winning. He's also the author of Do Sing, Reclaim Your Voice, Find Your Singing Tribe. And he has taken this into business, working with clients like Coca-Cola, Expedia, and the NHS to show that singing isn't just nice, it's a serious tool for culture, connection, and performance. I first saw him at the Do Lectures, where over two days he somehow had all of us singing, including me, singing an incredibly emotional version of Perfect Day. It was one of the most powerful things I've seen in a room. On this episode of Inside the Maverick Mind, we're talking about fear, courage, belonging, and why a Maverick leader might want to start with a song. James Sales is our guest. Let's get inside his Maverick Mind. James, welcome. Thank you, I'm in. No problems. Good to see you actually. Nice to see you again. In a while, isn't it? Yeah. I think we were in uh West Wales in Dulex.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

We've only ever seen you in the summer when you know it's a beautiful uh Welsh evening, you know, drink in hand, song in our heart. Yes. It's uh rainy day in Cardiff, but I can still feel that warmth.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Oh, I'd say it's there for you. When did you first realise singing with other people did something deeper than just sound nice?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

I think through feeling it myself. Like my my formative singing experience wasn't in a choir, um, though that was to come later. It was on the football terraces with my dad when I was five. And just being surrounded by that sound and just feeling so intrinsically part of something. So for me, music making, singing in particular, has always been about belonging. Um, and it's always been the place where I feel that I feel I belong. Um, and I guess as my career has progressed, I've just wanted to create that feeling for other people. Oh, I think you have.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Was there a point when you thought I'm not going to go down the traditional choir route? I'm going to do this differently. That was your maverick move, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, I suppose I've always felt a little bit like a maverick within the singing world because I didn't actually come up through the kind of choir tradition. My background really is an instrumentalist, so I grew up playing trombone in the local brass band, in swing bands, orchestras, and when I did my music degree, you know, I was principally a brass player, but I also play guitar and bands, and so I I always sang, but it wasn't kind of the soul focus. And for a long time, you know, when when I was first working within the singing world, I kind of did feel a bit like an imposter because I thought I haven't come up through this path, you know, this isn't my world, but I've actually come to realise that that's actually quite a strength because I I don't carry a lot of the baggage that there might be with with kind of with the traditional choir world. Um, and so I feel like I'm maybe able to bring singing to to more people in that I I I'm not carrying a lot of that kind of baggage and heritage kind of with me.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

It's funny because I was speaking at the do lectures, that's when I met you, and what you did in those two days, um, I think I said on the last day, there's a kind of open mic, isn't there? And I said I was gonna sing again because I was a former recording artist performer, and it was you that made that difference. I don't know if I've told you this, but you know, I bought a guitar after that, I'm back singing. You know, I'm thinking of trying to require, but I can't find the time for it. But I get it, you know, and I I very sort of shyly got into that crowd. But how you got a room full of slightly skeptical people and unified, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, I appreciate you saying that, and I'm just so happy that you've reconnected with your voice. And one of the things that I love most about my work is you know, seeing the transformation in the moment when you see a room of people stand taller and and unite and and feel the joy, like I love that. But what I all almost love more is hearing about the ripple effects, and sometimes that might be years afterwards. That that it was just that little entry point, that little bit of reconnection that you needed, like the I gave you the permission slip that you needed, or whatever it was. And and that's the real joy of my work, is just that kind of um creating um I I think Caris Matthews said about my book, she's which we're gonna go, I know we're gonna talk about, but she said she described the book as a as an open door to the joyful world of singing, and and that's kind of what I see my role as now is someone who just kind of gently opens the door and hope that people will walk through it with me. And so my style is very much, you know, it's a very gentle approach. Um, I I like to carry it really lightly, even though I take singing very seriously, and um and I know that the impact of singing can be really profound. My way into that with people is is is to treat the experience lightly and playfully and just gently encourage people to come along with me.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And you're not bothered if they can sing or not sing?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

I start from the perspective that we're all born singers and that people just forget along the way or they get told along the way that they can't sing. I mean, when when people describe tone-deafness, which is something you hear banded around a lot, oh I'm tone-deaf, you don't want to hear my voice. The actual kind of definition of tone-deafness is um um something called amusia, which is where basically you know music makes kind of no no sense to you. So so that if you derive pleasure from listening to music and you're able to assemble those sounds into something that is satisfying to you, it means that you don't have amusia, which means that you're not tone-deaf. So it may all just mean that you're out of practice or that you've got a lot of baggage around singing, and I really get this, and such a big part of my work is trying to dismantle a lot of these pr preconceptions about singing. So I absolutely do start from the perspective that everybody is a singer, which might sound quite naive, but um, just from the breadth of people that I've worked with, you know, from CEOs to community groups to homeless choirs, you know, um a full spectrum, beautiful spectrum of humanity. Um, and I've I've got all of them singing.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

We forget that the voice is a muscle. And I know when I picked up my guitar again and started singing, it wasn't great to begin with because I was picturing myself where I was, not where I was going to be, but practice makes perfect, and then you s your voice becomes strong. I was blessed once to do a documentary on the voice, and uh which led to going to Los Angeles to work with different artists to see how you know big performing artists and the trauma. And I actually have never seen down the throat of anyone before, but then you see the magic of the voice, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Singing is so multi-layered, and um there are obviously people who are just incredible technicians, incredible artists, and and you know, if we use like the sports analogy, they're the elite athletes, you know, they're the Olympic gold, you know, runners. But actually, what I think I'm most interested in is taking people for whom singing, you know, maybe they're not aspiring to be, you know, like the next Adele or Ed Sheeran, but they just want to do something that's gonna make them feel good in their body, that's gonna help them connect to other people. And so I actually love the analogy of Parkrun, um, which which is a really beautiful um venture where anyone can turn up on a Saturday morning and can do a 5K at whatever speed they want to, and it's not really about the running, it's just about all the positive effects that come out from that. So I kind of see my work as a little bit like you know, that kind of um model of you know, parkrun or carrots to 5k. Like we don't all need to be elite athletes, so we don't all need to be elite singers, you know. Um, and and I think that's one of the preconceptions that people have that if you are gonna sing, people set this really high standard for themselves. And actually, a lot of my workshops, we might be singing a song that's just got three or four notes, but you can actually just sing something really powerful and makes you feel good um and connected to other people from just really simple musical material.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

There's something scientific about singing in unison together, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I described my formative experience on the football terrace, and only really now am I starting to understand that, you know, the kind of the processes and the psychological and social processes, why that does feel so good. I mean, in terms of the science, that the study that I always returned to is one from Oxford University called the Icebreaker Effect, where they looked at um adults engaging um at strangers, people who didn't know each other, engaging in different activities, including singing. Um, and they found singing to be the activity that bonded people the quickest and the deepest, even though they weren't face to face, even though they weren't talking to each other. So for me, that has real resonance, you know, that really tells us something important in this so-called age of loneliness, where you know, people are getting sicker and lonelier and more isolated and spending more time you know behind their screens. And and and that for me really is the driving force behind my work. And in terms of you know, the the science of singing, you know, there are so many things that that we can measure and social and scientists have measured, you know, whether it's our cortisol level, uh, our stress hormone lowering when we sing, improving our posture, oxygenating the blood. Um, and and and this is why we we get so many kind of singing for health initiatives um around the country. You know, there's there's a brilliant ten of us choirs here in Wales, um, which is for people who've experienced um cancer. Um, and um, you know, they've they've pioneered some amazing research about how actually singing and engaging regularly can help people on their recovery journeys. But we also have you know singing for Parkinson's groups, sing for well-being groups, um, you know, and there seems to be a real groundswell um towards singing being something that is worthy in itself for the process and not just the the kind of the performance outcome.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Well, the land of song has to back it up in some way because we were known in the industrial valleys for having the male voice choirs, and I'm sure that a lot of what happened in the mines and the pits came out in the singing and that unified voice that you'll never hear anywhere else in the world. A male voice choir will still put a you know a tingle in it in your in your spine, but also uh you know, mixed choirs and youth choirs, it's all coming through now. It's so what I like is the fact that you apply it to everybody, you know, and I I think there's no sort of elite class here, and that's what choir and singing does. Let's talk about the sofa singers. Uh, for someone who's never heard of it, what was it?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

So the sofa singers um came about as a bit of a knee-jurt reaction to the first lockdown. So May 2020, um, I closed the doors to all my choirs when it was obvious that that we were gonna be stopping singing for a while. We thought it was for a while, it was for a very long time. And um I just thought, well, what can I do? I feel really helpless in this situation. People are at home feeling scared. We just need something that's gonna help people feel joyful and connected. And I kind of floated the idea on my social media feeds about is there something I can do online? And everybody was like, James, if you are anyone's gonna do it, you need to do it. I just released my book at this point saying do sing, you know. So I was very much in the zone of promoting the the well-being benefits of singing, but suddenly we were faced with the fact we couldn't be in the room to sing together. So I thought, well, this is interesting. And look, there's an incredible amount of support from different people, including Katie Durham at Radio 3. I'd just been on her show to promote my book, and she said, Look, if you get something up and going, um, we'll promote it on Monday on Radio 3. So it happened really quickly. I literally remember just being in the kitchen with my wife. What should we call it? Couch choir. That sounds a bit like couch potato, so for singing. Yeah, so for sings, okay, okay. So I bought a domain name, I got a Zoom account, I had no idea how to use Zoom, and I thought, I'll just go on Zoom, I'll sing a song and get people to join in with me. Let's just see what happens. And what happened was that we kind of broke the Zoom room, 500 people, only 500 people could get in. Uh, and then the next morning the BBC rang me. David Sileto, the arts correspondent, said we want to run a story on this. We think, you know, you're you're ahead of the game here because you know, people are gonna need things that are gonna keep people connected and joyful at home during the lockdowns. And so 24 hours after our first session, uh, we were on the six o'clock news, and apparently that went out to 17 million people because it was when before the first lockdown had actually happened, and all this was in the air, and then it just went bananas, as you might expect. You know, we were on TV in the States, we were all across the the press um in the print media, and you know, tickets for Sophie Singers were like hotter than Glastonbury tickets, you know. I think one of the real successes of Sova Singers is not just that first flourish of excitement, but actually the community is still strong. Uh yesterday, two days ago, I ran our 590th live session. So the community is still there, and it's still serving a need for people around the world to connect with each other and with their voice and with singing, which maybe was heightened during COVID, but actually it's helped me realize that there's a lot of people out there who want to engage with singing, but maybe don't want to walk into a room or can't walk into a room to sing as part of a choir. And so I've now, you know, that's kind of part of my um, you know, that's one of my kind of streams of work. So I've I've got a team who work with me on that. So I'm not delivering, you know, the hundred session live sessions a year, but I'm delivering you know around half of them, and it is a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

It's incredible, you're right. Um, Zoom gave confidence to people not to sing in front of others. It it it was just a filter, wasn't it, that enabled people to do that. When did you realize? I mean, by the way, I love the fact that you just got on with it. That's very Maverick, you know. You see an opportunity, you could you had a choice of watching all the Netflix movies you never got up with. You said, No, I'm gonna do something, and by doing it, you know, you've chained and touched the lives of so many people. When did you realise it had grown into something much bigger than you expected? When was that moment?

SPEAKER_00 13:35

I mean, you you could say with the TV footage, but anything can be in a flash in the pan, can't it? I think it was in the weeks and months after our first session where we had got so many messages from people saying how important it was, how central it was to maintaining their mental health, their physical health, their connection to other people, their sense of joyfulness. Look, over the years we've had messages from people saying it's helped them rehabilitate from life-changing conditions. We've had emails from people saying I was having IVF treatment for years and then I stopped. And because I feel more comfortable having doing Sova Singers each week, I've now got a young child who now joins them on screen. I mean, you just wouldn't believe the messages that we have. And that is the fuel that that keeps driving us, you know. So for all the TV footage and and all the awards, actually, what really motivates me and the team is just hearing that feedback from people. And and what's beautiful is that people are still discovering it. We still have a lot of people from those early days, but people are still discovering it and there's still a need for it. And as long as people are still discovering it and and have a need for it, then we'll continue to run the sessions.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

You were given a Prime Minister's award for your work. What did that moment mean to you and the people who've been singing on the sofas? Because you represented everybody.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, I really felt it was for them. Um I like on a personal level, I felt quite conflicted when I received it because the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson, you know, there were so many question marks about not only him but the whole government, and you know, I don't want to get into politics, but on a personal level I did feel a little conflicted. But what I did do was graciously accept it on behalf of the whole sofa singer community because I think it just really felt like it validated their experience. There were a lot of people, you know, we talked a little bit about the traditional choral world who were very scathing, not specifically about sofa singers, but Zoom singing, saying, Oh, it's a pale imitation, you know, let's not bother until we get back into the room. And I think for those um people who are part of the sofa singers community, just it receiving that award and the recognition felt really important. I think they felt seen, and for me, it was you know, a big part of my mission has always been to bring singing into the mainstream conversation around health and well-being. And actually that really helped to do that because it was, you know, it was on the news, it was um uh, you know, a really felt like a really big moment. Um, you know, not just for me and the sofa singers, but just for kind of placing singing in that bigger continuum, the bigger conversation around mental health.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, no, I I think you were right. I mean, more than anything, you know, I think that music is the lost language of the soul. You know, you give expression at a time, such a dark time. You know, it connects in a way nothing else does, you know. Let's jump to Bantam of the Opera. How would you describe that choir to people?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

So Bantam of the Opera is 50 Bradford City fans, the Bantams, and it came together through BBC Radio Leads who had, I think they came up with a name first. They thought, what a great name, Bantam of the Opera. What what might that look like? And it looked like 500 Bradford City fans from 500 applications who provisionally came together to sing for the memorial of the Bradford Fire, so which happened uh 40 years ago, so it was to commemorate um the 56th lost in the fire. So the plan was to come together for a few weeks to sing on the pitch for the memorial game and then maybe see what happened. And this is all part of the Bradford City of Culture 2025. Now I'm I'm from Bradford, I'm a proud Bradfordian, um, and so to be asked back to my home city to lead this project because I grew up principally when I was, you know, a kid, I was a big football fan. Football was my first love, and then the music and the singing came later. So to bring those two worlds together was was just a dream come true. But essentially, Bantam of the Opera is 50 people, an unauditioned choir, taking people from the stands to the stage, and oh my goodness, what a what a journey it turned out to be. But these are football fans, not choir types.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

No. What surprised you most about working with them?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

I think just the emotional honesty from almost day one that people were just so open to the experience. And what I really love about Bantam of the Opera is is just the diversity of the group. Bradford's a multicultural city, it's a very young city, and that is represented in the choir. And so just the excitement in the room on that first rehearsal was was palpable. But just the way that we hit the ground running, I think, really surprised me. The just how open people were to the experience. But also more generally, what surprised me, I think, about Bantam of the Opera is how something that seemed quite small and quite regional suddenly became, you know, um something that people were interested in nationally and had this huge kind of ripple effect that that went much further than football and much further than Bradford. Um, yeah, astonishing.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Well, you took them to the Patriot Valley Parade, to performances for the king, and then singing on Sports Personality of the Year in the section, remembering sports hours that were lost, and that's not easy. What was it like standing in front of them in a moment like that?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I remember we got on stage and I just we were just waiting for the VT to finish before it was our section, and I just mouthed at them all. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you because I really felt they'd earned that moment. You know, you could say, Oh, what a privilege to be asked, and of course it was, but they worked so hard, you know. We had such a you know, these are people who've got jobs and lives and kids' responsibilities, and you know, showing up every week for rehearsals, doing so many performers, I asked so much of them. You know, we would do we've done live broadcasts, radio two, radio three, sung for the king, sung on the pitch. It's just been such a big year, and I just wanted them to really enjoy that moment, and I I wanted them to just feel proud of themselves. Um, yeah, so it it was it was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

The BBC One film, Sing When You're Winning, follows their journey. What changed in those 50 people over that year, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I think everyone would agree that they've grown in confidence in all kinds of ways. I think there's something about singing that really feels like you're seen and and that you're kind of uh validated and that you can kind of really be true to yourself. And and that is if all the conditions are set up right for singing. I think there are a lot of situations where you might walk into a choir and you don't experience that. But but when all the things align, and I I think that's what I felt with Bantam of the Opera is that so many things aligned. People came into Bantam of the Opera feeling like they had a deep sense of belonging with a football club and and with a city. A lot of people did Bantam of the Opera because they wanted to do the city proud. Braffa gets a bad press and they want to do something positive for the city. So you had 50 people who were in this kind of shared mindset already. So we we went in at quite a high bar. And I think from that place, people just you know, I I can just think of every single person in that group, whether it's people who at the first rehearsal sat at the back and kind of shied away, and then by week three or four were standing up, or thinking of you know, one of the members who came in incredibly kind of shy and reticent, and then later in the year she actually put her hand up and and sang a solo and stood up in front of everybody, and you know, just everyone in that choir has got an amazing story to tell, and what they found is is kinship and and and family and a real real deep connection, and and beyond the performances and the rehearsals, I mean the WhatsApp group is just kind of going day and night, but there's you know, there's the Bantam of the Opera, they do parkrun on a Saturday morning. Some of the people all you know play five-side football for rehearsals, and they really support each other, an incredibly diverse group of people who have this common thread of football, of kind of civic pride, and now the choir. So all of these things kind of supercharge each other, and it's I think they the people in the choir have been surprised at well as well at how deep those connections have been felt. You know, a lot of them said, I didn't know that I needed this, but I'm so glad that you know I put my hand up to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Is that what you mean uh in your book, Finding Your Tribe? It's exactly what I mean in my book.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, so I mean I think generally it's important that we find our tribe. You know, we're social creatures and um I think a lot of the ways that we live in the twenty-first century is at odds with our nature and at odds with the way we've evolved as a species. You know, we we are designed to be um in groups and and to be connected and to feel part of our community. And For 101 reasons, you know, that is becoming less and less the case. Not everywhere, but for for a lot of people, you know, it's becoming the default. And so I think it's so important for people to find their people, you know, find a place where they feel that they belong. And for me, as a musician and as a leader of singing, I know that I can help facilitate that through the singing experience. So, you know, finding your tribe, I think, is a really important thing to do anyway. But actually, if you can find that, and and I the the the the kind of uh the the subtitle of the book is Find Your Singing Tribe. And I guess what I mean by that is that there are a lot so many different singing groups out there, there are so many ways in to the world of singing, you know. It could be singing at a folk session, you know, in in your local pub, or it could be, you know, I run a lunchtime choir at Lloyd's Bank, just singing with your colleagues for half an hour just to like get away from your desk and and you know, just have a little bit of a boost, or it could be singing in a choral society, or you know, there are just so many ways um in into communal singing, which which doesn't have to be within the trappings of a formal choir.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

And there's a hunger for this right now, isn't there?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I think so. I mean, I think there's a hunger for for connection and and belonging and experiences, you know, and and as we dive more into the world of of AI, I think people just want visceral human experiences as well. Like I'm not pretending AI doesn't exist and it's not useful, but we we we can't lose sight of the fact that we're human and and we we we need connection and we need belonging, and and that's what I always kind of go back to.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

A lot of business folks still don't see the link between music and the workplace. And you mentioned there the the bank choir. How would you explain that link?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

I think I explain that link by saying, Well, let's not talk about singing, let's talk about you know what is it that you want for your team, what is it what that you want for your company? And almost always it's you know, we we wanna we want to build trust, we want to build connections, we want to listen to each other better, we want to work together better, you know, we want to take risks more together, we want to be creative together, you know, all these different things. And and I actually know, again, through my experience as a musician, as a facilitator, as a teacher, that the communal singing experience does all of these things. And so when I'm having conversations with, you know, with HR departments or people who are interested in bringing me in, I never talk about the singing or the mechanics first. I say, well, look, what is it that you want for your team, you know? And I think post-COVID there's been an extra hunger for this. And I think perhaps because more and more people are working flexibly and remotely, you know, for me, like the workplace is one of the few last places where people can actually come come together and and and and commune. You know, we we've seen the decline of pubs, you know, people aren't going to church as much as they used to. You know, that there's been so many facets where traditional community is in decline. So I actually think workplaces have have, well, I wouldn't say they've got a responsibility, but they've got great capacity to support their workers and to bring people together. Look, I've been freelance for almost 10 years. I certainly wouldn't go back, but one of the things I do miss of being employed from my career as a teacher was actually just you know being in the staff room and having colleagues. And I think that's a really important part of work. And so if I'm able to come into those environments and to help people feel more connected, like you know, I mentioned the icebreaker effect that that singing makes people feel bonded really quickly. Sometimes when I'm working with a business, it might just be 10 minutes at the beginning of a of a conference or an away day, just to kind of get people out of their heads, into their bodies, feel a little bit more connected, and then they're actually ready, ready for the day.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

What is it about you, James, that makes people trust, that come to you and give their lives? What is it about you?

SPEAKER_00 25:42

You probably have to ask them. I think it's a really fundamental thing of people, I think feel safe when I'm leading a group, and that's like the first starting point is that they kind of feel safe with me and that it's going to be okay. And quite often at the beginning, I'll say, Look, I know you've only just met me, but trust me and trust yourself, like this will be okay. So I think in the moment people pick up on that, you know, and and I just love being in that space. I feel incredibly relaxed walking into an environment. You know, it might be 300 people at a conference who weren't expecting to sing, I've got no interest in singers. I feel really comfortable and calm in that environment, you know. And then I think in a way, people feed off that. But I suppose, you know, before you get to that stage, people might look to the fact, you know, I've got the book, you know, I've I've got a TEDx talk. Um, you know, some of the things I've done in terms of my career with sober singers and Bantam of the Opera. So there is kind of history there, but in in terms of my work with with companies, almost all of the work that I do is repeat bookings because people say, Oh, okay, well, I've experienced it. Now I want it for my team, you know. And so I'm working with a company next week in Germany, and then the same company in February in Dubai, and that they've you know they've got divisions all around the world. And I did one conference for them a few years ago, and because people feel it for themselves, they think, Oh, okay, you know, it it's it's quite a hard sal if you haven't experienced it for yourself because you you you think about singing and and you people have all this baggage, but actually, if you're like you were at the do lectures, you know, if you're there and you're experiencing it and you you feel the benefit, often you then become quite um evangelical about it. You think, okay, well, great. Trust me, my team, you know, this is what my team needs, you know. So I think there has to be some kind of a buy-in.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Well, that's where you're in the chair. I want everybody to hear this. Like, you know, what I experienced and I've seen and your passion. I think for me, it's your unassuming nature, but you have confidence as well. You know that you're gonna be safe with this person. You try it's not about you, and I think that's a big part of this.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I you know, I'm there, I I love the term like facilitator because you know, like the origins of the word from you know, from the French word facile, I'm there to make it easier for people, like I'm not there to make it about me. There are plenty of conductors or people in that world who do make it about them, and and that's why I really shy away from the word, you know. People, if they describe me as like a choir master, I'm like, ugh, it makes me feel icky. Like, no, it's like I'm I'm not really a master of anything, like I'm and uh you know, because then that's putting me on this big pedestal. And I think when I'm working with the group, I want them to feel like we're doing it together. Like, obviously, I am I'm in a leadership role, and I'm not I'm not shying away from that. And I think a lot about leadership and about how I scaffold the experience, but I don't want it, it isn't about me. I mean, it really isn't about me. Like I said, some of the biggest joys of my career have been when I can just take a step back, whether it was with sofa singers, we've now got a team of five or six people, so I can step back and just it can roll, you know. Or there's a men's community choir that I set up ten years ago who now go out and perform without me because they just want to go out gig, and I just don't have the capacity. And I'm like, great, just go and do it. You're not elated anymore. Yeah, no, and and I think I I've come to realise that's you know, that's something that really excites me. Like I love getting things up and running, but it's also really nice sometimes just to step back. Like, I don't want people to be reliant on me, you know. And so I think yeah, I think part of the way that people receive the work that I do is because I am relatively unassuming about it, and I'm not I'm not in their face. It's um it's gentle and it's playful, and I think we probably need a bit more of that in life, particularly in business.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Oh, tell me about it. What would you say if you were honest enough was your worst and best decision looking back?

SPEAKER_00 29:20

It's interesting, is it with worst decisions? Because look, there've been so many projects that haven't landed, or I've started something and it's been a cul-de-sac. But I genuinely think that that every no in life strengthens your yes for something else, you know. So there isn't one thing I I would go back and change, which doesn't mean it's all been plain sailing at all. But you know, if you had to pick one decision, when I was in my teaching career, um I took on a kind of a pastoral responsibility that people was like, Oh, you should do that, you should do that. Okay, maybe maybe I should do that, and I shouldn't have done it, you know, because it took me away from the thing that I loved, which was the music, and it was such a big job, you know. I had like an hour a week to you know, I was working with like 200 young people, and there were so many things that I could have been, you know, I needed time to attend to, and I think all that did was probably slowed up the process of me going freelance, and it kind of took me away from my core mission, which is to, you know, to make music accessible and engaging for everybody. So I suppose you know that m might be considered a misstep, but at the same time it strengthened my resolve in what I did want to do, you know. So um I you know, I I don't think I would have changed anything. And in terms of my best decision, I mean, I guess broadly from a career perspective, it would be making that call to say, look, I'm going freelance now, I'm gonna go for it. Um, but I don't think I would have done that if I had to, if it wasn't for my wife. And so, um, you know, whether this is a personal thing or a career thing, you know, actually asking my wife out for a date. And then I remember we we went for a a really long walk um a few months into our relationship in in Cornwall, and um we were talking about it, and she was like, Why don't you go freelance? Like, why you know why don't you? You know, and and you know, and by the time I did go freelance, you know, we'd we'd got a mortgage on a house and we knew that we wanted to start a family and and all these things, you know, that that it it feels like you should play it safe and have a regular wage for. But she was the one kind of saying, Look, you I believe you know, so she's been you know, she's been my greatest cheerleader, but also keeps me in check as well, you know. So I genuinely don't think I would be doing what I'm doing if it wasn't for her, you know, amazing support and just and just belief as well. And I think that's such an important part of what I help to give other people is I help them believe them in themselves a little bit, you know, and I think that's really important in life. And whether it's you know a teacher or or someone in your community or a family member, if there's just one person who believes in you and then you start to believe in yourself, then yeah, that's when amazing things happen.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

We all need the champion, we all need someone in our corner. My life partner, my wife Maya, she she was that person and still is to this day, you know, because we just need that nudge every now and then because it is a scary place, you know. Stepping into your known, but that's the quiet confidence of a Maverick.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah, and uh there's something about trusting instinct as well, in that as well, you know, uh to have the self-belief to trust in your instincts and be, you know, be aware of the should and and just you know be aware that that that that path is there, you know, for you to forge if if you want to.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

But you must have had dark moments.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Oh yeah, of course. I mean, luckily with COVID, I didn't have too much time to think about the fact that my business model, which was essentially get people in a room to breathe on each other, you know, uh, wasn't really gonna work. You know, by that point I was all in, you know, but then Soversing has happened and and that just escalates. So I didn't really have time to think then. And look, of course, you know, I think I I feel so much of freelancing and kind of running your own businesses is about mindset, you know, and there's been times where I've had an incredibly abundant mindset and opportunities just seem to be everywhere. And then there are there have been times where it it's felt like the opposite. You have a scarcity mindset, and you think, what about this, and what about this, and what about this? And um, I think that's part of the human condition. But a big part of you know, making sure you're on the positive side of that is surrounding yourself with with good people and and finding your community and and finding your support networks and and finding good people. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

You've worked with some pretty big clients, Coca-Cola, Expedia, the NHS. How much have you seen, you know, the scale of it and trying to make a difference? Has anything intimidated you in those scenarios?

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Oh, yeah. I mean, um, quite often I'll get a call. Let me give you one example that there was um a brilliant um charity I was working with, and they said, We'd love to bring you in. We've heard great things about you, but could you just not do any singing? What do you want me to do? Or maybe just some chanting? And I said, I could, but honestly, like, trust me, trust me, like we'll get there. It might take a while. I've got my ways of doing it. And eventually they came around with the idea, okay, you can do some singing. You know, we don't we we think they might they'll be won't be very receptive to it, but okay. And that that same charity, I went and did their away day, and you know, there are lots of ways I go about it to kind of um make you know, I kind of chunk up the experience. We might do 10 minutes here, a little bit more here, build trust. And by the end of the day, you know, I've got almost everybody on board singing in harmony and all that kind of thing. So I was really happy. And then about six months later, I got a voice memo from one of the um senior managers at this charity. It was um a charity that that that take people out into the wild and and do, you know, kind of adventure holidays, and it was a voice memo of of him leading the song that I taught at their away day to young people around the fire. So he'd taken that and he'd then started sharing it with other people. So when I talk about the ripple effect, that's the kind of thing that I mean. So that look, that's just a little example, but yeah, there's a lot of um, you know, sharp intake of breath. I'm not sure this will be for my team, you know, and you know, there have been situations where it it's felt really hard, and and I have to work really hard. But what I always say is that I always get there in the end, and sometimes you come in and there's already what feels like quite a deep level of connection already. So for banter with the opera is a great example, leading singing at the do lecture is a great example. People come, they're in the same space, they're kind of open to a new experience. So that's where I can kind of maybe come in. You know, if I'm aiming for a 10, I'm coming in at a six or a seven already, okay? But you know, I remember doing a big, it was a big um supermarket company, it was this, it was a finance department who's just not up for it. It was a Tuesday afternoon, it'd been a demoralizing quarter, you know, and so then I'm starting at zero, you know, and I've got to work really hard to get it up to a five or a six, and then by the end of the day, you're up to a ten, hopefully. But that's yeah, that's all part of the challenge.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Let's get into the mechanics. A room full of people, the CEO was said, my lot won't sing. Where do you start?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

Well, uh what I don't start with is the singing, and what I don't start with is being introduced as the singing facilitator. So I always ask, just introduce me as an external, introduce me as an energizer, introduce me as a whatever, just don't tell them we're gonna be singing, okay? And so I'll go on, you know, I'll I'll talk a little bit, um, and then I'll say, oh, you know, let's just um we've all been sitting down for a little bit, let's just maybe get let's just roll our shoulder, you know. And I just gently, gently, gently, gently start to scaffold the singing experience. Like it, yeah, it's kind of quite sneaky, but but for me it's all about building trust, holding the space lightly, and kind of just taking people to a place without them realizing it. And and quite often that's the feedback that I get from people is like, how like how did you do that? Like, you know, it's almost like not not like hypnotism, but you know, that kind of thing is like I just want to guide people gently through the experience. But for me, it's all about how you set it up and it's all about the language around it. If I came in and I was like, hey everybody, we're gonna start singing. I mean, if I was in that room, I'd want to walk out. You know, I'm I'm I'm the last person who's a fan of organized fun. But because I know what singing can do, and I know what kind of magic moments you can create, I just have to find a way, find a way in to help people walk through that door with me.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Well, if you decided to do lectures we're gonna be performing at the end to everybody else, I think everybody would have walked out. But you don't start there. I love that. You know, everybody wanted to by then because they were ready to. What's the one thing you do differently on purpose from a traditional choir director?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

I think I make it about the process and about the experience, and that the performance is almost like a byproduct of that. I think quite a lot of people in the choral world will start with the final performance, and whatever it takes, we will get there, you know? Whether I beat it out of you, whether, you know, whether we have to leave some people behind, because all the work that I do, and I don't think I've I've said this, is completely open access. Like, you know, I don't audition for any of my projects. That's a really important thing for me. Um, you know, Bantam of the Opera, a lot of people say, Oh, you know, God, you've got 50 great singers there. None of them auditioned. You know, there was no audition process at all, and and for me, that is part of the thrill. So I think for me, I really prioritise the process, the experience, the listening, and I think as well, I try and just simplify it. Like, I think singing, particularly group singing, can be overly complicated, whether it's the terms that people use or the musical arrangement that people use, or just all this kind of baggage that can be around the singing world. I just like kind of like to get rid of it. It's like we're all it's such a fundamental thing to sing. We you know, we sing to our children when they're young, we sing lullabies, you know, we sing on on the football terraces, we go and see a big band in concert, you know, we we go and see Elbow, we were all singing one day like this at the end. Like, none of those things are kind of mediated in any way. We just kind of know what to do, and and that's what I want to tap into, is what people kind of already know what to do, and so I feel like I've done my job is when I can kind of then get out of the way a little bit. So when we did the final performance of Perfect Day at the do lectures, I just remember the sense of being able to just kind of get out of the way because people knew what they were doing. They were singing, we had soloists doing the verses, we had Michael on the piano, it was just really beautiful. And I just remember being in the middle of it all thinking, I'm just gonna take I took a literal start.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

I saw you reversing back into the crowd.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yeah, it was wonderful, it was wonderful, and and that's that's always a beautiful moment for me because it you know, um, I don't feel the need to be in charge the whole time. I feel like I'm just there as a catalyst to get things up and running, and then at a certain point, the volition of the group or the experience will, you know, may well take over. And it did in that moment, so I just stood back and was like, ah, it's lovely.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

That enabling that inclusivity is a beautiful thing. What's a small practical thing someone listening could try this week to bring more singing into their life or workplace?

SPEAKER_00 40:04

I think the starting point is no judgment, is like don't judge yourself, don't judge other people, yeah. Um, and just find something maybe when you were younger that you used to love to sing, you know. I think so often we forget what excited us as kids or the things that we're into as kids. And and part of Bantam of the Opera for me has been rediscovering that love of kind of football culture and and you know, even playing football. You know, I play five-side football with members of the choir, and just kind of you know, maybe go back to a time where you were you didn't have this internal voice around around your own singing, you know. Um, and I think that's a really good place to start. Um and and also just don't go straight in with like Beyonce or you know, something incredibly technical, you know, like I was saying about elite athletes. Like, start start with something relatively simple. You know, if you look at the songs that we sing as children, like nursery rhymes, they've got quite a small vocal range. So even if you haven't sung for a while, they're they're absolutely singable, or you know, like songs that we sing on the football terrace. You know, they're there's you choose something that is singable by big groups of people or big groups of regular people. You know, that's why you know I'm I'm quite drawn to kind of folk music and traditional music, because it's music that is designed to be sung and performed by everybody.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I think discovering and rediscovering the joy is essential to this, and um, thank you for enabling me to do so. I'm gonna go on to the Maverick Maxims, which is this quickfire section, which I enjoy. You need to answer with anything that comes to your head. So here we go. Do you want to you better get some water first? Yeah, yeah. I'm preparing. Me, me, me, me, me. Vocal warm up, ready? Right. Okay. A song you never get tired of teaching.

SPEAKER_00 41:43

Only You by Yazoo and the Flying Pickets. It's a beautiful song. I've done it with so many groups, in pretty much every single group I've ever led, and it always lands, it's always beautiful, and it always feels special. It's just there's something about it. The yearning, the bitter sweetness, the just yeah. I mean, maybe if you're you know, if the viewers and listeners to the podcast want to start with a song, start with that one. It's just so beautiful. Um, it's relatively simple to sing, and it for me it just packs such an emotional punch. Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

I'll I'll try that tonight. Yeah. A song you'd love to arrange for a huge crowd.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

There are so many. Um, I think the song that's in my head when you say that is Um I Shall Be Released by Bob Dillam or Bob Dillon, the band. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one. It's got this beautiful big anthemic chorus. I see my light come shining from the west down to the east. Any day now, any day now, I shall be released. It's just like this beautiful, like, oh wow, what don't know, it just feels big and profound. And it's also, you know, with my musician hat on, it's just perfect for a big group to sing. So, in fact, I'm I'm doing a workshop with a company next week, and I think that's going to be the song because that's on my mind at the moment, yeah. Um, and and and sometimes I think songs often carry their own kind of baggage with them, and I'm aware of that as well, which is almost why I didn't do perfect day at the do lectures, because it almost feels like I'm trying to force something, you know. So sometimes it's quite good to do songs that are a little bit more left field and maybe aren't quite, don't have quite the cultural kind of resonance on on a big scale as well. So, yeah, that's another reason that I would pick that song as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Okay, what about one myth about singing you'd love to kill off?

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Oh, there are so many. That's the first part of my book. The main one is I think the main myth about singing is that it's about performance and perfection. Whereas actually for me it's just about the process and it's about listening and engaging and just reconnecting.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

What's one thing group singing gives you that nothing else does?

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Being totally present. Being in the present moment, not thinking about anything else other than what I'm doing, you know, accessing that flow state, the that elusive flow state, you know, which is a thing that I think so many of us Chasing.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I think you're right, you know. I mean that's what I've experienced, but nobody's ever articulated it. You know, we're so busy running around, but that's when I'm completely present, when I'm singing or with a group of people, nothing else is on my mind because the space is you know full of music and joy. What's a small daily habit that keeps you grounded?

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Having three young kids, undoubtedly. I wouldn't I wouldn't say that's a habit. Um, I think just getting outside. Um, I'm lucky to live in the hills outside Wrexham. So getting out, walking, um, go swimming a lot, like to, you know, jump in the sauna and jump in the cold water, and just getting away, you know, one of the joys but also perils of doing something that you love and that you're so passionate about is that boundaries can become blurred. So I really make sure I spend, you know, a good chunk of my time doing something that's nothing to do with singing and music, just to give, you know, give me a different headspace.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

I want to get on to the lessons learned in your life and your best and worst decisions, and we've all got them, if you've got the honesty to share with me. What's a tough moment or a mistake that taught you a lesson you still lean on to this day?

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Came a few years ago when I just wasn't looking after myself, you know, um physically or or mentally. And I think there's something about when you're the person at the front holding space for others, um leading others, creating a space that supports their well-being, that you can quite quickly lose sight of your own, especially, you know, young family and life's busy. And so, yeah, I had a pretty dark year um in 2022 where I just kind of lost sight of that, and it took me quite a long time to get back to the point where I felt like um I was able to give again. You know, there's that old adage you can't pour from an empty cup and all that. Yeah, so that absolutely stays with me. So I'm very I'm quite strict with myself now about making sure, you know, my schedule is flexible enough to accommodate all the things I've been talking about, going out for walks, to spend time with friends, to you know, get away from things that aren't that aren't work because um yeah, because I I I can't do I can't do justice to my work and to the people I'm I'm working with if I'm not looking after myself.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

I love the fact when you said you were traveling down, I'm gonna take a later train, you said a picture of you and just your son going for a walk. Right and that touched my heart.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

That's a prime yeah, it's a prime example. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, right, I'll get on the train to Cardiff, I'll uh get on my laptop, and then I pick my son up from nursery, and he's like, I'm so glad you're here. I was like, Oh, I'm so glad you're you're here. And then I'm like, Do you know what? I'm gonna get a later train, it's a lovely day. Should we go for a walk? You know, and it's just things like that that you know, um, that are so important, yeah. And I'm not gonna regret.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Can you think of a time you were told to play it safe and you're glad you didn't?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

I think all the things that have felt big and profound and where I've had my most impact is when I've taken risks and I've kind of gone against the grain, whether it's teaching football fans to sing opera or getting people singing online behind the mute button and things like that. But I think you know, there is a version of my career and my life where I I did where I might have played it safe, uh, and if I had, I wouldn't be here now, I'd be in a classroom, in a suit, um, still teaching. So I was a classroom teacher for almost 10 years. Um, and um I remember when I went to see the head teacher say, Look, I've I've made a decision, I'm I'm I'm going freelance, I'm I'm I'm gonna go for it. This is what I really want to do. Had my first child on the way, you know, and remember she said, Okay, and she's like, What about what about this? What about your pension in 10 years? You could be this, you could have. I was like, that's not what I want. Like, that's not that's not my path, you know? And so it would have been very easy to play it safe. It was a lovely school, you know, I was comfortable. Um, but I just it wasn't that I was I wanted to move away from teaching as such, it was that I wanted to stride towards whatever came for me in in this world of self-employment, and I couldn't have foreseen, you know, all the things that have happened, you know, the book, um, doing the talks, working with companies, sofa singers, bantam of the opera, none of that would have happened if I had played it safe and stayed, stayed in the classroom.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

That's why I identified you as a classic Maverick when I met you, is that you had that choice and you took the brave option, but you know, with with a plan. But I do think also that the 10 years of teaching held you in good stead when it came to teaching. You know, you had that in the bag.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Yeah, yeah, I d I don't regret it at all. It was a wonderful, it was a wonderful time, it was a wonderful chance to learn, and I think, you know, I I bring all of my life experiences to all of the work that I do, as we all do, you know, we can't help but do that. But I I certainly think that stood me in in in really good stead. And and and what I will say is the whole time I was teaching, I was still touring the world with my cappella group in the school holidays. I was running community choirs. I mean, this was before kids, and you know, so I was burning the candle at every end and in the middle. Um, but I guess I was able to retain my identity as a musician, and in that time I was just gravitating towards group singing, group singing before it, and then it just got to the point where I just had to make the decision and and I decided to jump in with two feet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

We have a feature in this show called the Maverick moment, the point where you look around and think, well, think to yourself, no one else could have done quite what I just did. What's that moment for you?

SPEAKER_00 49:31

I think probably m almost everything I've done with Bantam of the Opera and and straddling those what feels like very different worlds of kind of football fans and sport um and kind of the world, you know, kind of choir and opera. And I think there's one particular moment um in at me in Media City, just last month actually, where we were invited to sing with Bantam of the Opera with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra. And we we recorded three tracks. We recorded a song from Phantom of the Opera, we recorded uh a song from BZ Carmen, and we recorded a version of the Brafford City anthem, Take Me Home, Midland Road. So we had the orchestra, which is that kind of a whole world in itself, and a world that I, you know, I understand as a having had a background in orchestral playing. We had the Bantam of the Opera choir who I'd worked with all year, and I understand kind of that world. We also had Chris Camar and Leslie Garrett who were singing solo, and I was kind of just in the middle of it all, just kind of pulling the levers, making it all happen, helping people talk to each other and kind of you know, inter interpreting all. And on that day, I didn't do any conducting, I was just there, a bit like at the doolectures. I just love just standing back, and it's like I've helped make this happen, and now it's in motion. And but I just thought, well, all you know, all I was bringing all of my experience to the table there, you know. Um, and um, yeah, it was a really proud moment.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Oh, it's just lovely. We always finish with this line: complete the sentence, a Maverick is someone who maverick is someone who forges their own path in life and is able to bring other people with them. Great, yeah, 100%. And finally, years from now, when people look back at Sofa Singers, Bantam of the Opera, and the work you've done with choirs and companies, what do you hope your story stands for?

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Uh it's something I've said a lot today, but I hope it stands for connection, a connection to self, to your voice, to your creativity, to your humanity, to your playfulness, um, to your joy, but also to connection to other people, you know, connection to community, connection to others, empathy, listening. All of these things are bound up with with the singing experience. So, yeah, connection.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

That's a great answer. James, thank you so much. Your work shows what happens when you refuse to keep music in a box, break the rules, and use it to change how people feel and work, and you know, it's fantastic. To everyone listening, the world doesn't change by playing it safe. Maybe the first Maverick step is just to open your mouth and sing. We'll see you next time on Inside the Maverick Mind.