Ep 12 | Prof. Laura McAllister | Inside the Maverick Mind | Captaining a Nation, On & Off the pitch

What does it take to captain your country on the pitch, then go on to shape how that country governs itself? 

This week, we sit down with Professor Laura McAllister CBE - former Wales women's football captain, Vice President of UEFA, co-chair of the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, and one of the most compelling voices in Welsh public life.

Laura takes us from kicking a ball with her grandfather in the Llynfi Valley to sitting at UEFA's top table as the only woman in the room. She talks candidly about what sport taught her about leadership, why she never had to choose between football and politics, and why Wales is far better regarded abroad than many at home dare to believe.

We cover the Euros breakthrough for Cymru women, the slow grind of gender equality in global sports governance, the real risks facing Welsh democracy, and why she thinks "authenticity" as a leadership concept is mostly nonsense.

This is a conversation about quiet power, honest challenge, and what it really means to represent your nation - on the pitch and off it.

Topics covered: Women's football in Wales | UEFA governance | Constitutional future of Wales | Welsh identity & independence | Public service broadcasting | Leadership, legacy & the maverick mindset

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Tonight's guest has pulled up something pretty rare. She's captained her country on the pitch and then gone to shape how the country is run off it. Our guest is Professor Laura McAllister, CBE, former captain of the Wales Women's National Football Team, now Professor of Public Policy and the Governance of Wales at Cardiff University. And the first person from Wales to serve as Vice President of UEFA. She's gone from leading a country in defence to leading debates around its future. Co-chairing the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, pushing for electoral reform, making sure how democracy actually works for people, not just politicians. She's been chair of Sport Wales, sat on the board of UK Sport, and she's a regular voice on TV and radio. But you'll often hear her making sure that the Welsh perspective lands a little louder on the UK stage. Before all of that, she was a young football player trying to find a way and discovering that there are a lot of ways to lead, whether you're wearing a captain's armband or holding a microphone. Professor Laura McAllister is our guest. Let's get inside her public mind. Welcome Laura.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Now first off, I've got to say you came on a bike today in the rain. I have deep respect for somebody committed like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Foolhardy, let's say, but yeah, no, I cycle everywhere because I hate driving basically.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

So welcome to Inside the Maverick Mine. Let's rewind before the CB, before UEFA, before the Sened commissions. You grew up in Bajend, played football at a time when girls' teams were thin on the ground, and then ended up captaining Wales. What did that journey actually look like from your side? And who were the people who spotted something in you? Because the pathway for women's football back then wasn't obvious at all, was it?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

It certainly wasn't, but um I everyone assumes that I came from Brigend, which I did, and I grew up in Brygen, but all of my family were from my stag in the Tlinvey Valley, and that is quite materially significant because my grandfather, my mother's father, was a massive Cardiff City fan and a massive football fan. And so from the age when I could walk, really, he used to kick a ball with me and took me to my first Cardiff game when I was about three or four, and my first Wales International at Linion Park when I was about the same age. So he was a very, very significant figure in my upbringing. And I spent a lot of the week with my gran and my grandpa in my stake. So I felt like a big part of my upbringing was in the Hlinvy Valley, and certainly my football education came there. But yeah, I was just mad on football from the earliest possible age, really. And I played with boys, I played with my cousins who were overwhelmingly boys, and my brother, my younger brother, and boys who went to school with me. And because I could play, you know, as a decent player, they didn't really distinguish between me and the boys who were playing. But I think I was aware, certainly as I got a little bit older, that it was unusual for a girl to be in that situation. And that's of course when one recognises the inequalities and the unfairness of the experiences that girls have compared to boys.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

You've always had this dual track, football and sport on one side, and politics and public life on the other. Was there a moment when you realised you didn't have to choose between them and that those two words could actually feed each other?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I'm not sure there was a particular moment, but it was always a passion of mine to follow both of those routes, because just as my grandfather inducted me into football, he was very political as well. He was a member of the Labour Party and um a uh NUM official in Coinant Colliery, when obviously the collieries were were thriving. And so he was very much a kind of an activist, I guess, in the community uh with a small P, not just party political. So he was a big influence, as was my mother in that respect. And so I'd only ever really known being part of a kind of political family in a political environment, not party political, but that we discussed issues to do with society and how we lived and fairness and unfairness and so on. And then, of course, football was my passion, really. So I never really worried too much about segregating them or uh imagining that I would have to make a choice between one or the other because each was integral to my life as the other, really. And I've just been fortunate as well that I've been able to pursue, you know, uh roles in both of those sectors simultaneously.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

It's amazing how formative your grandparents and your mother's influence on you, like my parents, they shape you, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Oh, massively, you know. And I mean I've only mentioned my mother's family. My dad's family were from Scotland originally, hence the name, who moved down to Brygen when the pits were closing in Scotland to work in um South Wales. And my dad, I mean, my dad's 88 now, and he is the most massive sports fan you can imagine. You know, ironically, football is probably his least favourite sport, but you know, mad about rugby, cricket, golf, athletics, he watch anything uh on television now, and always really, really passionate about um encouraging us to do sport, but also to try and get behind the thinking around sport. You know, we talked about the finance and the politics and the pressures, I guess, of of the sport sector. So I guess, yeah, very much in my blood and something that you know I can't remember being without, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Interesting that dual track forming, you know, your future direction. So you went deep into politics and governance side with LSE for your degree, then a PhD in politics in Cardiff, Professor Rose in Liverpool, and now back here in Wales. What drew you into that academic world in the first place? And did you ever imagine you'd end up becoming one of the go-to voices on how Wales governs itself?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I'm uh I'm notoriously poor at planning my own career, I should say, and I've never really had a great grand plan, if you like, you know, a sort of end point or journey that I know what the destination actually is. I've been much more sort of instinctive about doing things that are are of interest to me. Um and I suppose somebody said to me once, so that means you're a risk taker, and I've never really seen myself in that light. Because I'm not a kind of I don't think I'm instinctively a risk risk taker, but I've always had a kind of attitude of what's the worst that can happen, um, especially when it comes to my own career. I feel more mindful about affecting other people. But if it's a personal choice, especially when it comes to one's own professional career, literally, what is the worst thing that can happen? Until you have dependents, you know, and obviously I've got children now, but before you have children and a family, it's only you that's affected by a deaf decision you make ultimately. And so I never felt that was a great pressure really. And I was always, when I was playing football for Wales and for Cardiff City, I was always very conscious that that career would end at some point, because it does for physical reasons. And I was very clear that in any case, had it been a different environment where I could have been a full-time professional footballer, I probably wouldn't have wanted that because I think I would have found that boring. I like having multiple things to interest me at any one point. And whatever anyone says about the professionalization of a women's game, it's a wonderful thing, by the way, but it's not for everybody. You know, if you have other interests and you have a career that you want to pursue, then maybe being a professional athlete is not for you. And I don't think it would have been for me even if it had been on offer at the time I was playing.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Let's move into what we call the Maverick mindset, how you think about leadership and change. You've been a captain on the pitch, as you mentioned just now, and now you're vice president of UEFA. After Stints as chair of Sport Wales and on the board of UK Sport, that's a pretty serious leadership journey, whether it was intended or not. What did football literally being out there in the shirt teach you about leadership that you've carried into boardrooms, where the stakes are financial, political, and global?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

I suppose it's only with the benefit of hindsight that one realises what sport has taught you as a person and what skills you've acquired by playing at that level. But I I'd always been the captain of every team that I'd played for. You know, when I was I got pictures, you know, my mum and dad had pictures of me when I was playing netball in junior school. I was captain of the of the team and hockey and athletics and football and anything. And it wasn't that I was the loudmouth or the you know uh most charismatic or even the best player, by the way. I was always prepared to speak out. And I think I was always somebody who could persuade other people about a tactic or a strategy for something. So I always got picked as a captain, even though perhaps lots of people would have said I wasn't the obvious choice for lots of those roles. And I think now looking back, you know, you don't ever change that much as a person, I don't think. You know, what you see in a child, and I see it in my own two girls now, you can see pretty much what they're going to be like as adults, because I think personality has formed very young, and of course, experientially you change, but realistically, you know, your personality is fairly fixed. And for me it was always about working in a team, which I really enjoyed, but it was also about being very honest and forthright in my opinions, and I think that's transferred neatly into the political arena because uh we often say when we're discussing Welsh politics, you know, it's the Wales is the land of the pulled punch, really. And we're not great at scrutiny or tough conversations because we're a small nation. I think it's the same in lots of small nations. I see I see lots of small nations now in Europe who are very similar to Wales in my football role. But I mean I've always been somebody who believes that you should um speak truth unto power and you should be prepared to raise your head above the parapet and speak out. And it's not always to be critical, but just to point out some things that could be done better, in your opinion. And I think organisations and individuals only become better by having critical challenge around them. So I've always tried to follow that principle in my leadership work. But of course, the corollary of that is that you have to accept that as well as a person and as a leader. And I I think that's a learning process. You know, it's not easy for anybody to hear trenchant critiques of your style or your behaviour or your words or anything else, really. But it's very important to me that people feel that they can say that. And I think if one says that in a polite and diplomatic way that is meant to be constructive, then good leaders should respond accordingly. And you mentioned, you know, my current role with UEFA, which is, you know, I'm relatively new in that space. I mean, it's coming up to three years, but it's it's a very steep learning curve. And I've learned so much in that world of global, you know, sports governance about myself and about how to conduct myself and how to relate to other people. So it just shows that the learning process doesn't end, you know. I worry about people who get to their 40s and 50s and think, oh, I'm you know, I'm there now, I've done it, you know, there's not much more I can learn now, I just apply it, you know. Whereas I've learnt more, you know, I certainly learnt more in my in my 50s, you know, than I have at any other time in my career, even going back to when I was in university. So I think you've just got to be open-minded and attuned to self-criticism and self-analysis, but also listening to people you trust who will give you good feedback.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

100%. And I'm I'm actually learning so much from these sessions is like almost a therapy session for me. I and I think about things for a long time after it. You know, it things are landing with me, as I'm sure they are with the listener. You're a born leader and you were high on my Maverick list, and I'm so thrilled you're in the chair. A lot of that was because you've been consistently outspoken about gender equality in sport, pathways for girls, and the need for more women in governing bodies as well, not just as tokens, but as real decision makers. What's kept you pushing on that front in a sport that, let's be honest, still has a very traditional male-stale-dominated culture at the top of it?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

What's kept me pushing is the fact that the uh progress has been very slow, and and I'm seeing another side of that now with my work in uh European sports governance, because when I was elected to the EXCO, the board of UEFA, I was the only woman on the board, you know, one out of 20 members. And it just felt like going back in time, really, because obviously, generally speaking, in Wales and the UK, we've at least absorbed some element of understanding around the benefits of diversity and so on. But you know, people forget as well, and this is the international dimension that I've learned so much from. A lot of countries in Europe are very different to us culturally and politically and religiously. So, you know, we're I'm talking to people from, you know, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan and Armenia and Malta and Cyprus and you know Turkey, and they're very different culturally to us. So you can't assume that because we've crossed some important rubricons with in terms of equality and diversity, that everybody has. So I wasn't that surprised, obviously, because I knew what I was letting myself in for, and I was the only woman for two years on the board of UEFA, but that set me another challenge, really. And the way I've always gone about championing um the cause of equality is not to just kind of shout loudly and advocate, but to try and persuade people of the merits and the benefits for them. And so, pretty much the whole of my first 18 months on UEFA Exco was talking to my fellow members, all men obviously, mostly very powerful men. They could be very wealthy, powerful men, by the way, because football in a lot of countries comes from a crossover between politics and business and wealth and so on. But they had no reason to listen to me particularly, you know. I was helped by a couple of things. First of all, uh one's own profile in football helps enormously. If you've been a player or a coach or a senior administrator, that gives you a conduit into the boardroom that people from outside that sector don't have. So that gave me a big, you know, benefit. But also I think, you know, I'm I'm I think I'm the kind of person, you know, who I don't think people find it hard to trust me because they know that I'm not really in it for anything other than um the love of football in this case and wanting to see the game change and flourish. And there isn't really any other reason for me to be in it, you know, because most of my time in football has been doing things against the odds, you know, and at a cost to me personally. So I've always kind of embraced it in that way. And I hope that that comes over when you talk to people because they they instinctively then engage with what you're saying and try and understand. And by by building relationships, I think you can persuade people of the benefit for change much better than just standing up on your soapbox and shouting loudly.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

You definitely have this quiet leadership style, which I admire greatly, and a good leader will have integrity at heart as well, which is the you know, the North Star, what they do. When you take a step back and look at where women's football is now, full of stadiums, major tournaments, investment, little girls with players' names on their backs, compared to when you were playing, what goes through your mind? Uh, you know, how proud does it make you, and what do you think still needs to happen next?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Joy overwhelmingly, because um I couldn't be happier to see where we've got to, and obviously seeing Cymru in the uh Euros last summer in Switzerland was just a massive breakthrough moment for for our sport here in Wales, obviously. And never mind the results because you know we know where we are on the development um pathway, and we knew that we were going to struggle against the teams that we were drawn with. So no surprises there. Um, more importantly, it's given us something else to aim for, it's shown that we can do it because you know the first qualification is the hardest, as the men have found, you know. 2016 was a breakthrough for the men, and 2025 was a breakthrough for the women, and it reflects where we are with each part of the game, really. So nothing makes me prouder. The question I got asked most last summer was, do you wish it was you playing? And I genuinely don't, because you know, I couldn't be more grateful for my career in football. You know, it came at a time when we didn't have all the resources, but we did have great players and we did have great um spirit, and all of my friends now are the girls I played with, you know, back in those days. So I wouldn't swap it for the world. And whenever you're born and wherever you're born, playing for your national team is the single biggest thing you can ever do in any sport, you know. So for me growing up as a football mad girl from Brigend, you know, to have played international football for my country and to have captained my country is just the pinnacle, really. And I often say that when people ask me about other things I've done in my career. I always say, well, nothing will top playing for Wales because it won't, you know. Um, it's simply the proudest thing in my career. But that doesn't stop you doing other things, but you know you'll never get quite get that emotional investment that you get from representing your country.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Oh, I can imagine it's not an honour that's fallen to me, but I can imagine the joy of it. One of the things we talk about a lot on this show is how sport can hold up a mirror to a country. We've seen how the men's national team, as you mentioned there, especially around the last Euros and World Cup, shifted the mood of the nation for a while. Songs, flags, that sense of Cumbri, as you said, feeling bigger and more confident. From your point of view, what's the link between winning on the field and the mood of a nation? Can football really change how a country feels about itself?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I don't actually think it's about winning on the field. It's about how we perform on and off the field. And the amazing thing about Cumbri is that we've had great performances on the pitch, obviously, and we've had some footballers, male and female, who really are world-class, you know, and every nation, believe me, you know, because I, you know, I work with countries like Slovenia, which are smaller than Wales, you know. Um I was in Norway last week, working with the Norwegian Federation, not much bigger than Wales. So every country has its world-class stars, of course. But we've consistently and generationally had stars in Wales in football and in other sports, of course. The Gareth Bales, obviously, the Aaron Ramsey's, the Ian Rushes, you know, the the John Charles's and uh Terry Oraths, late Terry Orath, Jess Fishlock and Sophie Ingle, and all the great Welsh players, okay? But the achievements and what they've brought for the nation isn't necessarily about whether we've won or not. It's about how we conduct ourselves. And you know, for me, it's the fact that when Wales turn up, we turn up to compete. Uh, we turn up with pride, we're professional. We bring a big crowd of fans with us, obviously, for the red wall for the men's games. But in Switzerland last year, you know, we were outnumbering some of the big women's football nations with the crowd that went to support Cymri and uh Luzerne and St. Garland. And that doesn't go unnoticed. You know, my colleagues in UEFA were all saying to me, look at all these fans, you know, where did they come from? It's brilliant. What are you doing to you know keep a such a great audience for the women's game? So all of that reflects well on the nation for me, not just how we perform on the pitch. Because those fans are ambassadors in tracksuits, basically. You know, they go out there and they talk to people and they convey Welsh values about equality and diversity and about community and about fairness and all the things that are important to us. They like a drink, obviously, they like to sing, but all the things that as a nation we we're proud of, you know, and so it doesn't really matter about the performance. The performance matters because you get to the big stage, and then obviously, then you can display all the great things that there are about Wales. And it's always frustrated me that governments haven't properly utilised the opportunities that come through sport because sport touches people's lives, you know, in so many different ways and more than any other sector can ever do, because people care about it, you know, it's kind of whether they do grassroots sport or watch it on the telly or referee or volunteer or anything else, you know, people really care about sport and they also care about Welsh teams, you know. We're we're so passionate about that in Wales. We we support every team that competes in the Commonwealth Games, you know, every sport, because it matters to us as a small nation. So I'm always amazed that governments haven't had a better kind of international sports diplomacy strategy that they leverage to, you know, uh ensure there's greater investment in Wales and greater collaboration with Welsh industry. I think it's been a missed trick, really.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah, when you even look at what's happening in Wrexham, the Americans now woken up to not what part of Welsh are you from, it's what part of Wales. They know that we're a nation. Yeah. Same with bizarrely Snoop Dogg going into Swansea. And it has that ability to transpire everything. Music is the same, but I agree with you. And I won't forget the uh ambassadors in tracksuits. That's what well we need to get a sort of a plan behind that, as you say, hopefully with a government that gets that gets the power of it internationally.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Particularly as I think we undersell ourselves as a nation, and I that's exemplified in the role I have now in UEFA, you know, because I travel all over Europe, obviously. I mean, I'm away abroad at least one week in every two or three now. And uh, you know, I've visited probably the vast majority of the 55 nations that are part of UEFA, and people know about Wales, you know, and we don't expect that. But obviously, our success with the men's and women's team, the fact that I'm on EXCO now, which, you know, we England hasn't got a representative on EXCO now, nor Scotland, nor's Northern Ireland, nor is the Republic of Ireland. So, in terms of the British Isles, you know, I'm the only representative there. So people notice things like that. You know, they say, What's Wales doing that's you know, leveraged us into this position, really? And they have a much greater trust and sense of belief in the nation than some. People do at home, you know, which is kind of weird, but says a lot about the Welsh psyche as well. Because until you go out into a broader environment, whether that's European or global, you don't know how people think of you. And we assume they think of us as a kind of poor country, you know, of coal mines, choirs, rugby, whatever, next to England, but they don't. They don't. I mean, why would they? Well, Wales in football is regarded as a really modern, exciting, pioneering nation, you know. And maybe it would be good if some political figures actually went into that space and heard what they're saying about us, you know. I mean, it's music to my ears, obviously, and it allows me to then work on what we're trying to do in Welsh football at a European level. But I think people would people would be surprised if they heard what people think of us as a nation. Because it's all positive.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah, I mean, let's let's get it out there. Let's get the message we're starting today. Whoever's listening to this. Let's talk about the Maverick mechanics, how you turn big ideas into actual change. You co-chaired the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. No small brief. Looking at Wales is governed now and what are the options to the future. What is it actually like to sit in that role trying to steer a conversation that's emotional, political, and pretty technical all at once?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Well, it's hard because, you know, um I was co-chair with Dr. Rowan Williams, you know, former Archbishop of Canterbury, and Rowan and I are from very different backgrounds, obviously with different outlooks, but we got on extremely well. And I think actually we complemented each other because we're different personalities as well, but we have utmost respect for each other, and I like him a great deal. I hope he likes me, but we so we had a good relationship. But we had to uh deal with a commission that had representatives of the four main political parties. So, you know, you have a member of the Conservative Party sitting alongside uh a member of Plague Cumber, Leanne Wood, you know, who are unlikely to see the constitutional future of Wales in the same way, let's put it like that. Um, but I think to be fair to the commissioners, they were very respectful of each other and they listened very carefully, those who were non-party aligned as well as those who were coming from a party political background. And they respected each other's views and they modified views based on our conversations. But I think Rowan and I were very realistic. We were never going to come up with a kind of blueprint for uh constitutional change that everybody could sign up for. What we did instead with the Commission report was highlight the weaknesses of devolution, of which there are many, you know, the kind of sustainability of the model of devolution that we have, the inequities of it, you know, uh which in terms of funding particularly, but also in terms of other aspects of arrangements, the weird anomalies where, you know, Wales is an outlier in terms of having a parliament and a government but not having control of its own judicial system. There's hardly any country in the world like that. So when people talk about devolution of justice, you know, there's sometimes people need to be reminded that unless there's a good reason for being an exception, being an exception is a bit of a burden, you know, and it certainly is injustice in my view. And then having done that, we analysed very closely using a quite detailed sort of evaluative framework, three options for Wales' future. So enhancing devolution, that is, giving it greater clout, if you like, and strengthening it and solidifying it. Wales in a federal UK, so requires change across the UK, obviously, if you're going to create a federal system. And then finally, Welsh independence, so you know, Wales to become an autonomous, sovereign nation in its own right. And what we didn't do was say one of these is better than the other. We we analysed them against a matrix and said, you know, for example, enhanced devolution would bring benefits in these respects, but risks in these. Independence brings obviously greater autonomy in these areas, but has the risks over these financial aspects. And so our conclusion that the three options were viable, people got very excited about and said, oh, well, look, you know, here's a commission telling us that independence is viable. And I've said to all of them, of course, independence is viable. I mean, much poorer countries than Wales have become independent. The issue is whether you want to take that journey, and that's a political choice and a personal choice for electors. It's not about viability, because independence is always a viable option, but there will be risks and disadvantages as well as advantages to it. So it's kind of trying to change the narrative around constitutional solutions or constitutional futures so that people are a little bit more analytical about them rather than kind of pejorative. You know, am I for federalism? Am I against it? Do I like devolution or do I hate it? You know, I mean, I think we need to make these debates a bit more sophisticated and a little bit more mature.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

I feel a bit like uh somebody on the UEFA board, and I'm being persuaded now.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Well, you can take a pick from those three because they're all viable in our opinion. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Yeah, I know which one I'd pick. Although I know it's got its drawbacks. Um, I won't share it here. Um I'll tell you after coffee. What did that process teach you about whales and about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

It taught me another dimension of effective collaboration, definitely. I mean, co-chairing something is a really interesting process, but I enjoyed that, you know. Uh whether I would have enjoyed it with somebody other than Rowan Williams, I don't know, because that's all I've got to gauge it against. But I enjoyed working with somebody who saw the issues and the problems and the opportunities so fundamentally differently to me. Because I like that, going back to the original comment, you know, I like being challenged, and I like somebody almost kind of unpicking my natural train of thought and presenting me with another one. Not everybody likes that, I take that, but I'm quite chilled about that. I liked working with the political parties. I thought we had good party representatives who were prepared to be less partisan than you might expect them to be and to listen and respectfully listen to other people's views. And the non-party aligned people were wonderful, you know. I mean, gosh, they were just such they were just so skilled and expert in what they brought to the table. So learnt a lot from all of that. Also learnt that whatever you do, uh you'll be criticised, but that's not new. I'm, you know, again, I'm okay with that. I really don't have a problem with that. Unfair criticism, I'll always challenge, but fair criticism, you know, I often write to people who criticize me on social media and say, yeah, I think you're right, you know, and it always surprises them because they don't expect anybody to say, yes, I take your critique, you know. But if it's unfair, you know, I think that's that's different. So I I learned, you know, I I've learnt again, not that I needed to have this brought to my attention, that the more public roles you do, the more prone you are to receiving lots of unfair criticism as well as legitimate criticism. But that's life, you know. I mean, it's I I I really kind of don't stress about any of that because I think we've all got to be big enough and ugly enough to put up with, you know, people throwing things back at us. And it can become very unpleasant. I'm not trying to belittle the kind of abuse that people get. And I've I've had some of it, but nothing like as bad as a lot of people have on social media. But really, we're not gonna turn the clock back with that now. I'm afraid that is our lives, and and maybe it'll get worse before it gets better, you know. But that shouldn't stop all of us doing jobs that have a public service responsibility attached to them, you know, because without that, what are we leaving that public space to, you know, the polarised elements who want to kind of unpick everything that's good about Welsh society? And there is a lot that's really good, you know. I I'm a complete optimist when it comes to Wales. You know, I don't buy this kind of, you know, Wales is rubbish, is you know, it's a daff, it's an awful place to live. If it was such an awful place to live, why do all of us who left to go to university and have professional jobs come home? Like 99% of my friends have come back to live in, admittedly Cardiff, and lots of them are from other parts of Wales, which is a pity. But that's a kind of economic driver, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, I mean, you know, I came home, all my family did. Why not? You know, it's cross-country.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

It's the best place it's the best place, one of the best places in the world to live, definitely. And that's mainly because of its people, you know, uh scenery, beautiful sea, and all the rest of it. But it's uh it's the people that make Wales, and I do think we are special, and every country should think of itself as special, even when it isn't special, because there's a lot of commonalities. But travelling like I do now, I see things about other countries that are better than Wales, but I also see lots of things about countries that are regarded as being better than Wales that are not anything like as good. So, you know, it's about getting the balance right, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Fascinating about Wales there. I mean, you know, am I going to be a huge supporter anyway? Um, but having that ambassadorial role and seeing the different countries and how they compare. But, you know, just in Madame Debbie Gambri, there's no one just like Wales. Just changing gear for a second. You're also a familiar face and voice in the media, BBC panels, election nights, analysis of Welsh and UK politics. For you, how important is the role as a commentator? Is it just explaining what's happening, or do you see it as part of shifting the conversation and making sure Welsh voices are heard?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Both, I think. Uh, I get very frustrated with academia generally. And again, this I think reflects my brain and how I work. I could never, definitely never have been a kind of conventional academic who published for other academics and wrote books for other academics and so on. You know, for me it's always had to have some purpose beyond the university environment because it's something that I feel very passionate about. So ironically, now the whole university environment has moved to impact now, so that what we do is assessed, you know, which suits me down to the ground because everything I've done, I hope, has been designed to be impactful. But I get frustrated when people kind of say, Well, you know, you're you're having to dumb down to explain complex political things to an audience on tell or radio. And I can't say, How patronizing can you be? You know, I mean, just because it's our world doesn't mean we shouldn't take a responsibility for uh encouraging other people to think about politics. And you can't speak in very complex technical terms, and why would you? You know, only a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of people would understand anything you say. And I think it's resp it's a responsibility on us as academics to try and uh translate, you know, the work we do research-wise into accessible uh concepts. And I don't think that's patronizing, by the way, because you know, if any of my friends work in different sectors, if they were talking about what they did, I wouldn't understand it either. And I ask them to explain it to me in simpler terms. So that's all we're doing when we're discussing complex subjects. So I think that's important. I think it's a kind of information imparting educational role, and I I think that requires one to think about communication style and language and terminology and so on, and to actually show that you want people to understand what you say, because ego is an incredible thing, and academics are dreadful for this. But you know, some academics, I suspect, are quite happy to be uh regarded as unpenetrable in terms of how they communicate because it shows intelligence, you know, in theory. Whereas I just think that's kind of lazy. It's great, it's great to have a very specialist field, but it's also important to be able to translate that into more accessible concepts. And I think with with the the engagement that lots of us have, you know, with the media, it's a privilege, obviously, but it's also a responsibility. It's important to us, particularly when we deal with the UK media, because they know often know very little about Welsh politics. We're experiencing a lot of that at the moment, as you can imagine, in the run-up to the Senate elections, because for once the Welsh election is probably the most interesting one of all the elections that will happen in May. And so we have a lot of network media coming to us and really exposing their ignorance of uh Welsh politics. And, you know, I think it's up to us to say to them, well, where have you been? You know, I mean, you're coming to Wales now, you know, hundred days before the election and expecting us to educate you on what's going on here. You know, you're a UK broadcaster. Covering the UK requires you to engage a little bit with the other countries of the UK and understand their governance system. But of course, we're going to be, you know, that's going to be a very busy period now in the run-up to uh the Senate elections because there's so much going on, and the UK media will want to frame Wales through a UK lens. You know, they want to talk about how well Farage does with reform UK, whether the Greens are getting a Zak Polanski bounce. But I think it's our job to talk about those things, but also to point out that there are distinctive trends and even distinctive parties in Wales, like Plied Cumberry, obviously, that cast a different dimension to politics here. You know, we're not just a reflection of the UK political scene. You know, we've got our own politics. And if that requires all of us who talk regularly about politics to remind them of that, then that's what we'll do. You know, it's uh it's a kind of public service duty, I think.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

I think there's a potential of the governance of our country to be in a better place than the UK, if it all comes about. But um, I'll leave that to the Well it it could be in a worse place.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Yes, it could be. Let's wait and see. I mean, it's everybody's everybody's political decision, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 35:29

No, but I do believe that a lot of professors and academia I have an issue with assumed knowledge that everybody knows the same thing. Yeah, you know, you've got to partake and share of your knowledge and explain simple things sometimes because they just don't live if you're a bricklayer, you're not thinking these things every day. But you want to watch that politics show and get a grip of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

And it's no more legitimate to be, you know, an academic than it is to be a bricklayer or a shop worker or anything else. You know, you you have the same expectations from the political environment as as does anybody else. So, yeah, of course, it's our professional field, so we should be responsible for communicating it in a way that people can understand and engage with.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Your academic work covers devolution, electoral systems, gender representation. When you put your professor hat on and look at where Welsh democracy is right now, in terms of how it works and who it works for, what do you see as the big priorities for the next decade?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

I think we're um at a staging post in the sense that CENID reform, which I'm very pleased has happened, even though I know enlarging an institution is problematic, you know, in the current climate. Well, in any climate it's problematic. Um but I think it's the right thing to do. You know, we we will have a fit-for-purpose parliament after the elections in May. We don't know what the government will look like, but all the signs suggest it will be a new government and a different government for the first time in a quarter of a century of devolution. But that's up to the people of Wales, you know, if they want to vote for change they will. If they don't, they'll they'll continue to vote for the party that they support. So I I'm not making any aspersions about how people vote, but I think um Welsh democracy is in a risky position. I think we have high levels of disengagement, and certain parties will try to capitalise on that. You know, disenfranchised people can often gravitate to, you know, the more polarised ends of politics. We know that it's happened everywhere in Europe. And we're it we operate in a blame culture politically, so we're always looking to blame somebody for the position we're in. And immigration is an obvious one, notwithstanding that there should be a mature debate about immigration and and and who comes to Britain and to Wales. The language in which it's portrayed, you know, can be very polarising and very alienating, of course. And I think there are risks around where we are as a nation at the moment, you know, and there are also demographic risks with how Wales looks at the moment, you know, that we we have in migration um from England, but mostly it's older people retire in in Wales, which actually nobody ever assesses in terms of costs, because you know, the health costs of a large retired community are quite considerable. Barnett and everything else doesn't take any account of that. And I think we, you know, we have a generation of young people who mostly have only have grown up with devolution, are Welsh-focused, Welsh-identified, and yet you've got other parts of the nation that are clearly not, you know, so that's a risk, you know, that is a kind of cultural risk as well, about how we see ourselves as a nation. It's a risk to the language, uh the two languages of Wales, but obviously a risk to uh Welsh, because Welsh depends on young people using it in their communities. And if we don't have the opportunity to keep young people in communities through housing and jobs and education, then clearly there's going to be a you know an existential risk to the language. And sometimes, you know, when you live in Cardiff, and I mean I live in Canton, you know, which is kind of a real hub of Cam Raig now, you can be lulled into a false sense of security, can't you? Because you you hear Welsh on the streets and you know my kids attend Welsh medium education, so of course you feel that everything is hunky-dory, but then when you go to some of the traditional heartlands of the language, like um, you know, Caradigan and uh Kamardencha and so on, you can see how you know out migration, outward migration is impacting on Welsh cultural life. And I do think that's a big, big risk to the future. And we should acknowledge it. That should be an issue for everybody who lives in Wales, not people who speak Welsh. It's all our language, you know, it's a language for all of us, and the nation is nothing unless everybody buys into it.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Made worse, unfortunately, by the gravitational pull of the city of Cardiff, you know, from communities as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Um it's almost inevitable, isn't it? I mean, I was talking to people in um Slovenia, uh, and they say the same about Ljubljana, of course, you know, because you know, people come from rural areas and therefore there's you know depopulation of rural areas. I I just don't know if there's anywhere in the world that doesn't happen really.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

On the broadcasting side, you've been a strong voice about the importance of public service media, making sure organizations like the BBC genuinely reflect all parts of the UK, not just London and the South East. In an age of streaming, culture wars, and shrinking budgets. What do you think the future of public service broadcasting should look like? And what worries you most if we get it wrong?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Well, I hope it it will thrive. I mean, I appreciate the whole debate about the licence fee. I'm not an expert in any of that, but that has to be reinvented, doesn't it? Because it feels anachronistic now and uh out of sync with other public service broadcasting models. And the attacks on the BBC um feel worrying to me, even though some of them have been self-im-imposed, I think. Um I hope that the next kind of generational leadership of the BBC understand that this has to be a representation of the four nations of the UK, and that it isn't just um a representation through the media, but politically there's a good representation as well. So there's an opportunity for uh people from Wales and from the other nations to be vocal and instrumental in shaping the strategy of the organisation going forward. And I know again, you know, from my European travels that in countries where there is no public service broadcasting, you know, the quality of news and sport and fairness in terms of how those topics are covered is really endangered, you know, and you can sense it in the body politic as well. So I hope that we're on the cusp of a new era of public service broadcasting and that we cherish the things that are really important to us about coverage of culture and sport and the way the Welsh language is protected and obviously given its own platform through Esperec and Raja Comuni and so on. Those things are really, really important. And once you lose them, you can't regain them. No. Um they're gone, aren't they? You know, and I think sometimes we we're prepared to lose things too readily, you know. We think that something, if it's a minority interest, um, is therefore not valid. But that's the opposite way of it should be seen, in my opinion. You know, the the the conglomeration of minority interests means a good diverse representation of what goes on in society. So I hope that the risks that we can see turn out to be opportunities really for reinventing ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

You said you were a positive person, I am too, and I'm hoping for exactly that that the plurality of voices will continue. For me, public service broadcasting is about the glue that holds society together, sort of culture, sport, music, religion, the things that commercial channels don't quite get because they're not ratings driven. But the language is another thing, and the identity of Wales through S will see is imperative. You know, it's what makes us different, and we could quite easily lose that. I'm moving on to the next uh segment of our show, which is the Maverick Maxims: quick fire, short, sharp. First thing that comes to your head, treat it like gold practice, okay? You'll get it more then. First up, what's a piece of advice you'd give your younger self when you first pulled on the whale shirt?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Well, more generally, not just on the pitch, I think I'd say um take your time because when you're young, there's always a kind of impetus to race towards things and you want quick progress, you want to be there before you've even started. And I've realized, you know, that actually some things are better with this kind of slow burn or gradual fermentation, that you can't just expect things to be um achieved in a very short space of time and. By being impatient, sometimes you miss opportunities to achieve something more substantial. And I I think that's true of everything that I've done in life. You know, I think when when I was young, I kind of expected immediate results, you know, and and you can't do that in anything. So slow down a bit, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Interesting. I'll have a word with her verify the time travel box. Yeah, but it's a lot to do with your nature as well, isn't it? You are driven, you want to get the job done, so your strength is your weakness in that sense. I get that. What's one leadership cliche you hear all the time that you secretly think is nonsense?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

I get really frustrated when people talk about authenticity because I I think it's a classic example of developing a concept that doesn't need to be developed if you've got good values. You know, for me, uh being authentic is being who you are. And if you've got to try at doing that, then you're doing something wrong, or you're very uncomfortable with who you are. So, you know, when I hear leadership folk talk about authenticity, you know, I'm always a little bit sceptical because it seems to me that being a a decent person, you know, a good person with good values and respect for others and understanding of fairness and equality and you know wanting to involve people and help people is just basic, really, you know, and and if you haven't got that, you shouldn't really be anywhere near any leadership roles. And so when people talk about authentic leadership, I think you're probably overthinking it, you know. And I heard that and it's been said to me several times, so I but I've just kind of not rejected it because I know what they're trying to say, but I just think it's unnecessary.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

What's a book, a film, or a piece of art that changed how you think about leadership or power?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

It's more difficult this one because I like to engage with culture for switch off time really rather than for kind of learning about the rest of the things I do in life. But inevitably things permeate your thinking. Not so much films and stuff, because to be honest, mostly I watch sport on telly, you know, so I can't think of a film offhand. But I read a lot, and I especially read a lot now when I'm travelling uh so much. Um, and I was thinking about what what had sort of left a mark on me recently, and I read a really good book by Gillian Trigg, who was a I think she was the High Commissioner for Human Rights or the UN Commissioner for Human Rights, and I think she's Australian, I should know all of this. Um, but it's called Speaking Up, and she talks about how women particularly should speak up more, about how their voices are not heard, and that often they're told to be quiet from a very young age. And so women become more accustomed to speaking quietly or not intervening or not contributing to debates in a way that boys and men don't. Um, but she talks about the ways in which you should do it and how to do it and how people should listen. And I think it's it's a book actually, not for women, it's probably a book better from uh received by male leaders who should become better at listening for different modes of intervention, you know, and listening out for women in their teams and uh who maybe contribute in different ways to the men around them. But I really enjoyed that because it she was kind of she talked about something that she referred to as uh leading by reason, not rancor. And I like that because it's more my style, you know. I like I like to the challenge of having to present a reasonable case for change rather than, as I said earlier, just shouting or confronting people, you know. I find that's a short-term buzz, but it doesn't achieve long-term impact. Whereas I think reasonable persuasion is you know something that you can really generate sustainable change through.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yes, you can. I I agree on that one. What's one small daily habit or ritual that keeps you grounded when the email inbox and football politics and all of that kicking off at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Oh, definitely exercise, yeah. I'm a complete exercise junkie, you know. Obviously, always done sport, so you know, it would you only go two ways and you look at former footballers and you can see which way each has gone because you you either keep going and you keep yourself fit or you don't. And if you don't, then look out because you know when you've been an athlete and you stop doing it, you know, your body will change very rapidly. But I've always loved exercise, you know, I've loved running, and I still run a couple of times a week with our little uh puppy, Betty, and I play squash twice a week, and I still play football with my our vet side, Cardi City uh Gualias are now. Um, and for me that's kind of non-negotiable, you know. I mean, obviously I miss a lot of things, I miss a lot of games, I miss a lot of squash games because I'm travelling. But when I'm here, you know, I I I think of that as as important in my diary as attending the meetings that I'm at, you know, because without that, I don't think I would be able to function professionally in the way I would like to. So I've got to keep fit, you know, I've got to look after myself. And if I can't train for whatever reason, I get very, very crotchety and miserable and so on. A lot of the time for me now is training in hotel gyms, which is not my favourite way of training, but it's better than nothing, you know. So at least in the hotels I'm in, I could go and do an hour, you know, of weights or cardio, and it'll make I know it'll make me feel better, and I know it'll give me the energy to to do the long days and so on. So, yeah, that's definitely the non-negotiable bit of uh my kind of working programme.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Fascinating, I agree. And I'll I'll leave it, take a leaf out of your book there. And finally, what's one thing about Wales you wish more people outside the country properly understood?

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I think there's lots of misconceptions about Wales, as we said earlier, you know, that people think of us as us as an industrial nation, whereas we're such a creative nation, and things that we take for granted, like obviously bilingualism, stand out within the UK, but don't, of course, in the rest of Europe. And it's always really intriguing when you talk to people from other countries who want to know about the Welsh language or the Ice Deadvod or the Earth or anything really, sport in Wales, you know, because other people respect things that go on here more than us sometimes, you know. The the fact that the Earth is the largest youth movement in Europe and the Ice Deathvod is such a unique institution, you know. Imagine all these people going to perform and sing and do things, you know, on a big field. I mean, it's kind of uh unheard of in a lot of countries, isn't it? And I think sometimes we undersell ourselves, you know, we don't really uh appreciate all the great things about Wales. Lots of rubbish things about Wales, by the way, as well. But we know those. Um, it would be good for us to focus more on the positive sides and even Welsh education. I mean, again, you know, we get fed up with people talking about PISA rankings, and you know, there's a lot to do in Welsh education without a doubt. But when I think about my own education in a comprehensive school in Brigand and my kids' education now in Cardiff, you know, I can't imagine asking for much more. You know, I think the way they balance learning with civic responsibility and culture and sport is spot on. And even if I had the money and the political inclination, I would never ever send my children to private schools because I went to LSE where virtually everybody was had been in private education apart from me and one or two others, and they were certainly not the type of people that I would want my children to turn into.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

So uh oh well, I'm fully comp and I didn't do too bad. So you've navigated some pretty complex worlds, sport, academia, governance, media, and you've done it well whilst being very much yourself, which we've heard today. What's a challenge or even a mistake that really stung at the time but taught you a valuable lesson?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Oh, I've made loads of mistakes, you know, and lots of lessons learnt along the way. I don't think there's been like one massive, enormous one, which is probably a good thing. I think maybe not investing enough in the team around you to make sure that they are helping achieve the objectives of the organisation that you're working with, whether that's political or sporting. Um sometimes, you know, we all think if I don't do it, you know, it won't get done in the right way. So delegating effectively is a kind of learned skill, I think. And I'm not control freakish at all, you know, it's not my personality to be a control freak. But I think when when the odds are high, you know, when you know you've got to deliver, I think I can keep things too tightly to my chest rather than share them amongst really talented people. So I've had to teach myself that, and I suspect that's come from not, you know, from lessons learnt, you know, almost subconsciously. But I'm still learning, you know. I mean, there's loads of things I've learned now through um the work in UAFA about when to to contribute and when not to contribute, how to bring people along the journey for change, you know, and and convincing them that what you you're doing is something they should bring into. So I'm still learning a lot, really, you know, and I tend to learn more from mistakes than I do from successes, definitely, because I can be quite self-critical. So anything that's gone on that I've failed in, and there's been lots of that, I know there's kind of glued in my memory, and there'll be things that I keep returning to to make sure that I don't do it again, basically. And I think a sign of a good leader is that they know what they've done badly or less well or wrongly, but they don't let it stop them trying other things, but they don't forget the lesson either. I think if you can get that sweet spot between those things, then you know generally you're doing okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

So you do quite a lot of post-match analysis on yourself.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

Yeah, well, do you know that's something you do get from sport. I was talking to some friends of mine who are in different sports, and we all said the same thing. When you're an athlete, you're only as good as your last game, obviously, because that's the performance that's current, but you also know you've got another game the next week. So, you know, you have to get over it quickly, but you've also got to analyse it and make sure that you've learned the lessons from the previous experience. So it's a good lesson for life, isn't it? Because you know, you make a speech somewhere and it's a pile of rubbish, and instead of beating yourself up, you've got to go and do it the next week. So you learn from it and improve, you know. And if you can take that kind of self-critical mindset, I think you can continue, you know, it can be a process of continuous improvement, you know, and other people will help you with that as well, because lots of my friends and family are quite outspoken, which I appreciate too.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

They help you along the way. That's so kind of them. Um on the flip side, every maverick gets told what they should do: stay in your lane, don't mix sport and politics, don't push too hard on awkward issues. Can you think of a moment where you were given very sensible advice and you're really glad you ignored it?

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Whenever I've stepped outside academia to do things, um more conventional thinking people will say to me, Ah, well, how will this affect your research output or your teaching plans or your promotion plans when I was younger? And I think they were probably doing it for the right reasons, you know, they were asking me the question because genuinely it could have had a detrimental impact on my career. But I was always really clear that if it was important to me and if I wanted to do it and I was emotionally attached to the sector, mostly in sport, these days uh these examples, um, then I was going to do it anyway, really. And I think what that allowed me to do was to assess things differently. I mean, obviously the career route and trajectory is important, but I wouldn't have liked to have just got a personal chair, you know, and then look back and say, Well, I missed out on doing all of these other things, because I don't think that would have been fulfilling for me. So I think a bit of my brain knew that, you know, I had to do other things that I cared about in sport, or I would have felt guilty or missed like I'd missed opportunities or whatever. So I think when people were very well-meaning in saying to me, be careful, you know, don't do too much in that sector, or you'll find that you're semi-detached from your academic career. I think they meant well, but it wouldn't have worked for me, so I'm glad that I, you know, followed my heart really in that respect, rather than my head, because my head would have taken them in the same direction, I think.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Yeah, well, that's what's different about you, and that's what's great about you too, is that you listen to your inner voice, the familiar route of like lemmings over the cliff. We all do this, this is how we do it. When somebody decides, no, we're gonna go this way, that's where people feel uncomfortable. But you know, that's where the good stuff happens. We have a feature on this show called the Maverick moment. That point where you look around and think quietly to yourself, I don't think anyone else could have done this quite the way I just did. For you, what's that Mavic moment so far? Maybe in a whales shirt, UEFA meeting, which I'd love to be upline the wall on.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

You wouldn't believe me.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Or in a TV studio. What was that moment?

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Yeah, it's really hard for me to think of um any single one. I mean, I I'm kind of living through the whole uh UEFA leadership role at the moment, but I think if you talk to uh people who know me and the work I do in that space, I I hope they'd say that I'm well equipped to do that because I can get on with anybody, you know, I can genuinely get on with anybody, even if I fundamentally disagree with their politics or outlook. I don't think we can ever, you know, reject people who are fundamentally different to us. So I I I know I I have an ability to get on with everybody and I respect everybody, especially in that space. So I think that whole environment has played well to my strengths, really, because I've been able to build good alliances there with people that you would never believe that I would get on with, but I do get on with. And as a result, you know, we've been able to make some quite critical progress around things like you know, representation of women in the governance structures, funding for the women's game, you know. I mean, UEFA is a big, big organization, you know, on an average year, you know, the revenue will be around six to seven billion euros, you know. So we're talking big, big business here. So a little tweak means a big difference in terms of financial investment. I'm not claiming responsibility for any of that, but I think the fact that I've been able to establish credibility with them makes it easier for the executive team around to really push for change when it comes to those agendas because they know that I can go out and advocate for it with most of the other male decision makers around the table, you know. So I think, you know, if I mean I'm quite a modest person, so I don't like saying that because I'm sure other people could have done this as well. But for me, that suits my style, you know, to being able to be collaborative and uh uh constructive in my relationship building in order to engender change further down the line.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

But it must have been a pinch-me moment when you first start at the UEFA table, the girl from Bujent, not footballer from my stake. If I would have told her that this would be the case, she would never have believed me.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

No, definitely not. Um, and I still do sometimes pinch myself, you know. I mean, being the first Welsh person, you know, on FIFA or UEFA is really makes me very proud because I think, you know, it should have happened sooner, but it hasn't. And then, you know, I was appointed vice president the day I was elected to Exco, so I I've only ever known that role. And again, you know, I don't think that was because of me particularly. You know, I was appointed VP because the president could see that, you know, I was standing for the right things and our nation was standing for the right things. And and now, you know, whenever I speak in any environment, anywhere, not just in Europe but in the world, you know, it's always with my name in front of me with the Welsh flag on it. And that that still gives me a thrill, you know. I mean, it's a responsibility as well, because if you say something daft or stupid, then you know it looks as if the whole nation is uh speaking in that way. So it is a responsibility, but it still gives me a thrill because you know representing your country on the pitch is wonderful. But if you can do something that represents it off the pitch when you're too old to play, I mean, second best thing, isn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Yeah. You're at a stage now where you're still driving big conversations, but you're also mentoring, supporting, and opening doors for others in sport, in politics, and academia. I've heard a lot of people talk kindly about you supporting them. Um, I wanted to share that with you. For a young woman listening to this who loves football and politics, who maybe doesn't see many people like her in leadership roles, what's one thing you'd really want her to hear from you?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

Well, they may not want to hear this, but what I would say is do things that may feel uncomfortable, uh, that may be challenging, that may bring you some angst and you know, anxiety and sleepless nights, because they're the things that we need you to do as a woman in football or woman in politics or woman in education. And with the benefit of hindsight, you look back at those moments and know that it was the right thing to do. When you're going through them, it's very tough, you know, and you think, why haven't I got a nice, easy job where, you know, I don't have to make this choice. But to be, you know, in any significant leadership job, you have got to know that there's a moment to speak out or to challenge or to agitate and to try and initiate change. And it does come with baggage, of course, you know, and you'll get criticized and you'll get alienated or sidelined or whatever it is. But you know, all of those things are short term, you know. I always say to people, you know, it's tomorrow's chip papers, basically, you know, you'll you'll have some abuse for 48 hours or whatever it is, and then life will move on. And what's the worst that can happen, you know? I mean, it's painful while you're going through it, and it tends to hurt people around you more than you, of course, when you're being criticized. But, you know, we live through those moments in order to get to a better place, basically. So I think I would say to any young woman or man for that matter, you know, don't be afraid to do the difficult things, the thorny, awkward, problematic things, because they're the things that will over time give you most satisfaction and probably achieve more than anything else you've achieved.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

So Laura, complete the sentence for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

A maverick is someone who Oh, I would say a maverick is someone who retains who she is, knows what the problems are with that, but still sticks at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

And finally, when people look back on your story from Burgen to Captain Ingwales Lecture Theatre to UEFA, from the Constitutional Commission to the commentary box, what do you hope they'll say you stood for?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

It's always dangerous, isn't it, thinking about your own obituary, so to speak. I hope that people will say I was a decent person. Was a nice person, you know, that I cared about other people and thought about their feelings and their careers as well. That's really important to me because I've seen lots of people in leadership roles who are not decent people. The best people I've worked with in leadership roles are fundamentally nice. That doesn't mean they don't know how to be tough. I suppose it depends what how you define nasty, doesn't it? But I would define nasty as as saying things that people perhaps don't want to hear, but for the right reasons, you know, that's my definition of nasty. And I'm sure people will say I've done that at times, but I've done it with the right intentions and I've hopefully done it in a good way, you know, not to alienate them or undermine them or make them feel disrespected. So I think you can be nice, you know, and it's like everything, isn't it? You know, we've got uh clearly my partner and I have got two daughters, and you know, really, as you know as a father, you know, if you're nasty and rough and violent with your children, they're not going to really respect you or achieve what they're capable of. And that's the same in a professional environment, you know. It's the same when you're training a dog, you know. I mean, we've got a puppy. You know, being nice but with a tough edge, I think, is the kind of optimum personality. And honestly, I've worked with some leaders who are not nice, genuinely not nice, but I've seen how weak their leadership is as well, and how limited the scope for changes in their leadership roles. When whereas I work with some other people who are just good people, fundamentally good people, you know, with the right values and the right attitude, and you can see how much more they achieve. But I think professionally, I hope they think that I made a contribution to politics and to sport that was progressive and that paved the way for another generation of women, ideally, but people to then take the next step forward, you know, that the conditions were there then for future improvements in both of those sectors. But that's all any of us can do, you know, we're on the planet for a finite amount of time and you know, impossible to change the world. So you change aspects of it and the conditions in an ideal scenario, which will allow other people to come forward and pick up the ball and put it in the back of the net, basically. So if if you can do something that provides them with a lovely pass in front of goal, then I think that's probably the best thing you can do.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:08

Oh, I think it's a good cross.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

Good cross, good set piece, anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

Laura Diocalon, I can't thank you enough. From pulling on the red shirt to sitting at UEFA's top table, your journey is exactly what the Mavic Mind is all about, and I'm really grateful to you. And to everyone listening, remember the world doesn't change by playing it safe. Stand up, speak clearly, back your team on and off the pitch, and keep that Mavic mindset alive. We'll see you next time on Inside the Maverick Mind.