After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 21

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 21

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Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_00

Well, hello everybody. Welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frank Week Bible Church where the content from Sunday morning sermon is unpacked in the middle of the week. And uh I'm here again with Mark Hazen. Yes, glad to be back. So we see a pastor, also the preacher this last Sunday. Ecclesiastes nine. Yeah. So and it's uh right now, I don't know if people can hear, it's raining pretty heavily.

SPEAKER_02

Last week when we did this, it was 70 and beautiful. This week it's right on the edge of snow and back in the 30s.

SPEAKER_00

A couple days ago it was 70 again. Yeah, just crazy to think about. Anyways, uh well, hopefully um we don't have flooding. That's the warning I got on my phone just a few minutes ago in Frank and Move. So by the time people are listening, hopefully we're all not underwater. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. But uh to jump into this week's message, I thought it was awesome. So you know, brilliant.

SPEAKER_02

Easy I see nine, a lot there. Really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00

I was at launch site, but then came for third service and got to sit through and listen to the teaching. And um, yeah, just a great message.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, this this chapter was not all that difficult to unpack because it's pretty clear. And uh we mentioned the again, we'll we'll talk about it here, but you know, life is uncertain, death is certain, live with joy. It was it's it's clearly brought right out of the text, particularly the three paragraphs. So yeah, no, it's it was good. I appreciate that compliment. Yeah, it was good, glad to preach it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's also kind of fun because you had the chance in the message to you know, being still, I guess you're not so much the new guy not been that much anymore.

SPEAKER_02

Not been here all that long. Not that long, right? Five five months?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, but um the cool thing was you were able to just share a little bit of your story, your family story. And um, so I think the congregation got to learn more about you, but it was obviously not just for the sake of sharing a story, you were illustrating something, and you kind of open up the message by just talking through um the plans that you had for your family, newly married, all these things, and how you guys had mapped out what your life was going to look like. And obviously none of those plans worked out the way that you anticipated. Right.

SPEAKER_02

We were a young married couple, and uh, I mentioned Sunday, I was 20 and Lynn was 19, young married halfway through school, and uh had a lot of plans in place, and they didn't they didn't they didn't materialize the way we thought they wouldn't be materialized.

SPEAKER_00

Um, just out of curiosity, like you know, going through that season early on in marriage, do you think that helped shape kind of your perspective on the way that life is, uh some of the outcomes? Like how how do you kind of see that playing into your experience?

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, certainly God doesn't waste experiences, and he was taking us through experiences, which he does, and uh uh does so with his children and with his people. Um I think looking back in that, I don't know how much it was shaping at the time. Yeah. It's certainly in the reverse you can look back and say, wow, God was really doing things that um and things were happening outside of our control. I think I used the illustration we had four children. Uh Brooke came early, Melody came late, Austin came quickly, and Jesse shouldn't be here. Right. And right, and uh so those were uh it's just interesting. You talk about family planning. Sure. And we were we were family planning, but none of those plans materialize the way we thought. Um, how God used that to shape my thinking, I think I better in the rearview mirror. Looking back on it, you realize that we make our plans. Uh the Proverbs speaks of this. We make our plans, God directs our steps, and grateful for God's providence, grateful for his shining providence, his happy providence in the life of his children. He's you know, the text speaks of that. God uh already approves what you do, he's he's uh a God with a happy providence and um can grow his children and and he does that. And so I think more in the rear view mirror, I think going through it, you're just in it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right? You're just in the midst of that. And we didn't plan to have a child so soon, and and she arrived and she came. And uh, and then you're just you're just kind of in the weeds of it. So I think you see it better looking back, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And um Yeah, I've experienced that in my life in various ways. I mean, maybe not in particular as much as the kind of um with kids and everything, but I'm sure there were certainly lots of surprises and twists and turns with kids as well. So but you know, career uh I can resonate with that too. It was never anticipated being a pastor that was not on my radar horizon when I even got married or any of those things. None of us, neither of us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. No, that that uh the the illustration of the family and family planning and the kids that came into our life and uh the one that was lost, that's just kind of one snapshot. It's kind of a narrow snapshot of a of a million things going on in life, right? Plans that you make, and and um probably like yourself, I'm a planner. Yeah, I make plans, um, I lay plans out. Um when you have um a growth and grace where you view and understand and know God to be uh providentially involved, yeah. It it's it's liberating, it's not constricting. It doesn't, you know, I'm not waiting around. I'm not waiting around to make plans. Sure. Um yeah. Yeah, plans are good. Very good. Yeah, important. God on it, God, God bless us. Proverbs says, we make our plans. I you know, you probably don't remember this. Uh back in the day, like your your vehicle right now, you have a couple cars. Uh your vehicles have power steering. And so you can sit in park in the parking lot and you can turn your front wheels. Right. You may not remember years ago when they did not have power steering.

SPEAKER_00

I'm I'm aware of it, not as much from a personal experience of my own ownership of vehicles, but I've driven enough older vehicles where I'm aware of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I remember some of your early cars weren't the group best of cars. Oh no, those are you you could have had a car that had power steering that just wasn't working.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I've had plenty of vehicles that weren't working. Remember, yeah. Uh yes. I can remember some of those. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_02

Way back when you were interning. Yeah. It was like, oh, that's a beast of a car right there. An old Ford Aerostar family. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, uh when you sit in a car today, you can turn the front wheels dry. Yeah. This car's not moving. Um back in the day when you didn't have power steering, it was a bear as impossible to turn the front wheels. Um, I I always think along the lines of, you know, God can move, God can direct a moving object. It's easier than, you know, so we make our plans. And I think um our view of God's greatness and our view of God's goodness and um and the freedom of God directing our steps liberates us to make plans. And as we make plans, we just also now hold those loosely. Like we almost know we're gonna make our plans, God's gonna direct our steps. This probably won't come to fruition the way we mapped it out. That's okay. Because if God's involved in this, which he is, ultimately it's gonna be better. Yeah. Even if the plan totally falls apart, there's there's there's something better in play there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. We're totally off notes because we're probably gonna keep drifting, but I think that that I've talked about before, it's um it's such a comfort and it's such a cool thing that the Bible gives you these truths. It doesn't explain necessarily how they always work together, but it gives you a set of truths that help you like God is sovereign in and through everything, yeah. Which means he's in control. But the the choices we make and the things that we do also really matter. Like, you know, though there's there's an agency and planning and so you know, if we don't make plans ever in life, life is gonna be pretty difficult. Yeah, we if we never You're gonna waste a lot of life. Oh, we're gonna waste a ton of life at the same time. Um, if it's all up to us, life is a pretty scary place, right? Because there's no God who's yeah over all that and through all that.

SPEAKER_02

And so undoubtedly we have both heard the comment, you know, God has a wonderful plan for your life. I'm sure you've heard that. Oh, yeah. God has a wonderful plan for your life, yeah. And uh I always get a little allergic reaction to that because I wanna I want to circle back into that and say, you know, God just has a wonderful plan. Because often people, when they say that, God has a wonderful plan for your life, they're dialing into my life as the center of the of that proposition. Yeah. No, God has a wonderful plan. Through Christ, he's invited you into his life. Yeah, he has plans, he's going to work his plans out. Because he's invited you himself, you're you're free and liberated to make plans, but it's just way better to be attached to God and his plans.

SPEAKER_00

And um, yeah. And yeah, and the and the the plans for your life in particular, and part of God's overarching plan may not always be, you know, the easiest or most, you know, for sure. Um uh fruitful. Like they're there. Yeah, I we could go, yeah. I'm just thinking even the promises in Jeremiah, you know, that we often kind of cling to where it's made to the exiles, you know, and for I know the plans I have for you to praise the Lord, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I I think that's just the biggest thing is is when we come to God through Christ, there is we're in a in a real way, we are dying to ourselves. Yeah. And are made alive in Christ and happy about that. And so there's a bit of our agenda has just more because we're no longer the center. God is the center, submission to his will and his personality. We still have the freedom that he gives us as his children to grow and develop and learn and grow in grace and grow in faith. Um, and we so we make plans, but we um are liberated by the fact that we've come to God and really have his agenda as paramount, matters more. And so as we make plans, those plans fall apart. We have a a different um way of handling that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. For sure. Yeah, and as we talked about um yesterda or last week, uh the you know, the secret things belong to the Lord of God and the things that are revealed. So yeah, just that's a helpful, helpful. I don't know. We've probably gone through like half of these questions.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, this is good. But but yeah, yeah, you you talked about the fact that you know we we made family plans, those plans didn't materialize the way we thought they would. Um, boy, you look back on that and I have greater clarity of like, man, just God, God's involved there. Yeah, and it doesn't um stifle you, it frees you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Connected to this um topic that that we're we're talking through, one of the things in the chapter that's pretty cool because it's explicit, you know, it talks about time and chance. Yeah. Happened to all of us. And I think you uh explained, you know, it more literally says happenings happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, verse 11.

SPEAKER_00

Happenings happen.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, things happen, circumstances rise.

SPEAKER_00

That can be unsettling. Yeah. Um, and I think maybe we chatted just a little bit before this, that maybe even is not always um discussed or embraced in some Christian circles. Why do you think that is, or maybe you talk through that a little bit, or just that perspective on happenings happen?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because I think because we have a high view of God's sovereignty, yeah, high high view of God's providence, um, and a high view of you know, God is purposeful and his plans come to fruition, his plans will not fail. And so we have this uh we have a very purposeful God, and then things at times feel arbitrary. Right. And we want to somehow think that things can't be arbitrary from our perspective. Well, we're we're creatures, we're fit, we have finitude, we have limitations. There's just no way um we can understand or ascertain all of God's purposes. And so I think that's where the struggle comes in. We we know we have a purposeful God, he's not um arbitrary, he's certainly not capricious, um, he's not feeling, you know, he doesn't feel, and so I think that's where that tension comes in. We know that to be true, but from our perspective, there are a lot of things that just feel random, they feel unplanned, unscheduled. And and how can they not feel that way from our perspective? But we are just uh uh we're too little, we're too infant, and uh to to map all that out. Makes me think back through your one of your prior messages, God's putting together a puzzle we cannot see. Uh to feel like or that that we should know all of those purposes just beyond us. We there's no way we could contain those.

SPEAKER_00

And the and the puzzle itself is is so much bigger than just our life. Oh, that's because that's part of it too. It's you know, I think sometimes we have this pretty narrow framework that oh, it and in the end it'll all make sense. And it's like God has a wonderful plan for your life.

SPEAKER_02

He has a wonderful plan for everything.

SPEAKER_00

I'm a small segment of a much bigger puzzle, you know, and and that's yeah. Well, and I think part of it too with the idea of time and chance, it's like um I think I shared with you before, you know, I've heard people say, like, there's no such thing as luck. Oh, or you know, I hear someone say, Oh, it's unlucky, and you know, from Christian circles, we tend to maybe say, Well, with God there's no such thing as luck. And I think the author of Ecclesiastes is giving us that framework again from the kind of the ground floor of like life under the sun, like there is a God who has a perfect plan that he's executing and he's working things out for you know his per according to his purposes, but like your whole point about things not being discernible, like well, for for for God, there's nothing that happens that's lucky. Right.

SPEAKER_02

Um, for us, we sometimes don't have a box to be like that's just yeah, why were you born in America and not in Sudan? Well, exactly. I was just thinking I remember a friend of mine uh years ago said, Boy, you won the birth lottery, just because we were born in the United States, you know, in in the last century. And when he said that, you're like, the birth lottery, you know, that doesn't sound right. That certainly doesn't sound biblical. And and maybe you can press into that and tear it apart, and I understand that. But there's just things that are from our perspective, time and chance happen, things happen, circumstances arise. Right. We're yeah, they just it it's that way.

SPEAKER_00

A couple weeks ago, I had a um, we have so in the Berkami and family, we go through a lot of food because we have money mouths. I remember those days. Yeah, three boys they eat a lot. So cereal, for example, is one of those things that um you get like a normal-sized cereal box, that's not enough to just feed the children in one breakfast. Yeah, it's just not enough. So we got those um those jumbo size, Sam's Club, Costco size. We do, but all even this the the bot the it's a plastic container. Yeah, so these are these are gold for by the way, new parents. If your kids are really picky about brand name brand cereal, if you get one of those big plastic things and you get an off-brand and you dump it in there, sometimes they don't know if it's like now they do. If they're watching the podcast, they're trying to listen to the podcast. They listen to enough dad. They're not listening to me. For sure. But there's uh it's good. Anyways, well, so we use these jumbo-sized plastic containers full of maybe generic cereal, maybe not. My kids will never know. But um, yeah, it was like two weeks ago or something like that. I went to go grab a cereal box. I was probably gonna pour cereal for my youngest or something like that. And someone had not put the top on the, you know, so like hit something and a whole thing of cereal was all over the floor. Oh, yeah. And I disaster I think what came out of my mouth in the moment was why. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's just like right, why today, why now, why ever. Why? Yeah. And that's just life. Yeah. That's every day there are those moments. And um and yeah, your time and chance happenings happen.

SPEAKER_02

Happenings happen, yeah. And again, I think going through Ecclesiastes, when that's said, it's just one of those things when you say life is uncertain, happenings happen, circumstances arrive, things out of our control impinge on our plans. I think when it's said, people acknowledge it. You just go, Yeah, that's the way it is. It just is true. And uh, and then we try to get deeply theological with it, and we realize that um we're playing with a different box. We realize that nothing's lucky for God, if you will, in his omnipotence, his omniscience, his all-knowing. So he's but he's in a different lane than we are. He's a creator, we're created. Uh, he is infinite, we have finitude, and so we're we're in a different lane. For sure. Ought not try to take his lane. Yeah, that's great. So for us, there are this things that are going to feel uncertain, unplanned, unexpected, yeah. Without a discernible purpose. Like we have no idea.

SPEAKER_00

Um connected to kind of what we opened up with, you talked about how God um wrecked all my plans and gave me a a better life than I ever would have imagined. Some something to that effect. Yeah, yeah. Um did that is that something, you know, again, you mentioned the rear rearview mirror. Is that something that for you you know you've grown to kind of embrace or understand? For sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's just a that's better seen in the rearview mirror. Yeah. It's also better seen which, thanks be to God, there's just been growth and grace. You look back over your life and you you think through or I can think through simple conversations that happened between friends that just changed the trajectory of my life. And you look back on that like that's just crazy. Yeah. I mean, that was a that was a five-minute conversation. It it changed uh I mean it changed where I went to college. You know, I just and you look back over your life and you um see how things big and small um influence in influence yourself. So you see it good in in the rearview mirror, uh, growth and grace, just the realization that that um boy, we have a good God who's providentially in control. Yeah. And his plans are better. I look back on my life and and the way in which God has directed in my life and has me where I am today, I would have never, I would have never had myself on this trajectory. Yeah. Just would it is so far removed. Um it's just remarkable. Uh we could talk about that for a long time.

SPEAKER_00

But it probably also came with lots of heartache, challenges, both struggles.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, both. Um I was involved in a uh boy, uh just before uh graduated from high school, I was involved in a um high speed car rollover, no seat belts. Wow. Uh the people who observed the accident thought there's no way anyone's living out of that. I walked away from that with broken ribs. But that was my first encounter with like, wow, life is really fragile. Because I I thought when we were in the accident, I thought this is this is my last day, my life is over. God used that uniquely in my life to just I think that was my first really pondering the reality of I'm not yeah, I'm I'm not infinite. I've got to. But I um so so that was a rough thing. Uh good things, I God has used my wife in my life in profound ways to change the directory of my life. Um, so good and bad, uh, my life just is not the way I would have planned it. I thought about, you know, I'm a planner, so I make plans and I move in directions, but I look back over my life and I'm just like, man, God has directed here plans in my life that are for good and for my good. And I'm like, I look back and there's this sense of, I'm glad my plans didn't come together. Yeah. In a sense, you know, it's not as though none of my plans have worked out. Uh lots of plans have worked out, and God has blessed those plans in in many ways. But the big overall trajectory of my life, I am so glad that God has been involved and is directing my steps. Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. My my my plans would have been so little, they would have been, quite frankly, so selfish. And um, so yeah, I'm just really, really grateful about that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I have a f I mean it's interesting because I'm I'm uh I'm a little younger than you are, and um but I'm not as young as I once was. So I'm kind of at a point where there are moments where I begin to become increasingly more aware of times where I had plans that fell apart that yeah, I'm beginning to see glimpses of like, oh, had that plan have been successful, I don't think, you know, certain other elements of my life, it just feels like God in his sovereignty and in his grace put me in positions where maybe even in the moment it was difficult or hard, but I can see how God could use that for purposes that were greater than I could understand and imagine. So there are times where the dots are connected, but then as Ecclesiastes says, there are also many times where I just I have no clue what that's for and how that's gonna be used.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, and some of those change um how God changes your plans or directs your steps. You mentioned some of them are difficult moments, some of them are really good things, yeah, some of them are undiscernible, some of them happen over a long period of time, and you just look back and you're like, how was I on that path? Yeah. I I I mentioned Sunday, I went to college for a phys ed major. Uh most people go off to college because they're looking for a career that'll earn them money. And um, I went off to college looking for a position where I could maximize my fun. Phys ed isn't a way to make money, but it's it's just a fun, that'd be a great, it'd be a lot of fun playing with high school kids, doing athletic stuff. And uh so I mean that I went off to college as a phys ed major. I was not an academic on any level. Right. It's it would be laughable to look back at my high school career even before that. I was not a great student, wasn't a book reader, was not an academic, pursuing a phys ed degree because it would have minimal of you know academic regimen. I I I I'm concerned about some of the phys ed uh people listening in. It's not an inferior career. I I'm glad I didn't go down that road. I'm glad God didn't have me in that lane. I think um, boy, someone who's doing that can really have a great life and be a testimony for Christ, but that wasn't what God had for me. But to think like I went to college for a phys ed degree, I was not an academic, I graduate from college. Well, Brooke was born two years into that. So our oldest daughter, I was halfway through my degree, my undergraduate degree when Brooke was born. I graduated from college the same time my daughter graduated from high school. So I was going to college from the time I was 22 to 40. And I look back and that like that's just insane. I would have never done that. Yeah. I would have never chosen that path. And how I did that over that 18 years, the encouragement of my wife, the encouragement of the school I was involved in. But I went to college for a PE major. I graduated at 40 with a a doctorate in theology. I would have never done that. It's so far removed from me. I I can't even describe that to people. It just doesn't make any sense. Right. And so there's just so many slices of my life that way. I I told Lynn before we got married I would never be a pastor. I grew up in a pastor's home. I knew what that was like, had audibly committed to never being a pastor. And and God pulls us through. The side door, as uh, you know, we were involved in a church as volunteers, and and uh they had a youth pastor, and the youth pastor left. And Lynn and I ran the youth group for a year, and they circled around, hey, would you be a youth pastor? And we were like, Yeah, we're in. Never would have thought that would have so changed the trajectory of our life going forward. It's just remarkable. I look back and I could spend all day and look at things and be like, man, God was clearly involved and uh in ways that just radically change my life. And I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Yeah. I make plans, God directs my steps. His we sing it, His way is better. We sing it frequently here. Yeah. And um, like, that's true. That that's just true. It is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's great. And you um you've kind of so in the message in particular, you talked about the that life is uncertain, which we've really been leaning into that so far in some of these questions. You it was a good segue when you mentioned the comment about um, as a young man having that accident where you came face to face with the reality of the fact that that you could have died in that moment. Thought it was. And so life is uncertain. You mentioned in the message death is certain, yep. Which is obviously derived directly from this passage, and it and not even just chapter nine. I mean, that has been a recapitulated theme throughout the book of Ecclesiastic.

SPEAKER_02

It started in chapter three, yeah, goes maybe even chapter two, but it starts early in the book.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, I think it's alluded to in in chapter two quite a bit in terms of just uh the things that we pursue that oh yeah, yeah. Um so the preacher in chapter nine, he won he he's wanting us, kind of as as you articulate it, to to come to grips with the reality of death, that that is a certainty. Um for you, kind of thinking through that, what what about coming to grips with that is just so helpful when we think about living?

SPEAKER_02

I think just due to the fact that it is life's greatest certainty for a hundred percent. That in itself is a big deal. Uh Ecclesiastes three is where God has set eternity into our hearts. So, and then life experience for everyone on the planet, they all know that death is a certainty, and so just the knowledge of that wakes us up to that reality. And and it doesn't fall on anyone as like, oh, I didn't know that. Um, right? Everyone knows, right? And um I think uh life is uniquely buffered in that we celebrate generally, we celebrate a lot more birthdays, we go to a lot more parties than we do funerals, and um but I just having that the knowledge the the truth told that life is uncertain, death is certain makes and when it's stated, it makes the people who I want to say are wise, you know, that there's something about that statement like wisdom would demand that you prepare for that certainty. Sure. That's the one thing that is certain. And so to be prepared for that is to really begin a life that is life, to not be prepared for that, and I think we're gonna get into this, but to not be prepared for that, you are not prepared really to live. You're prepared to spend a life pretending, and that fear of death, certainty is gonna grow in you and ultimately paralyze you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think the preacher, it's really that what makes one of the things that's so good about Ecclesiastes is he's not he wants to unsettle us by by speaking truths that we tend to not want to think about because they're uncomfortable. I think so. This idea of you know, he's talked about it repeatedly about those who are live righteous and those who don't, and the same event happens to us all. Yeah. And um the just being honest about that thing that we don't want to be honest about because it makes us feel kind of not so great sometimes, and it makes it's a bummer to think about, so we try to ignore it. Um, it just really frames up the way that we navigate our life, you know. Uh well, we've talked about uh Gibson's book a lot, but it's like you know, his kind of basic premise is what the way to live is to to start from the from understanding death. You know, it's like living life backwards, looking from from that trajectory on Okay, I'm gonna die.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, with that thought, yeah, I'm a planner. You're I know you are as well. We make plans. We do. You often plan with the end in mind. Yes. That you you start there and you work backwards. So you you put you you you put into this is what we hope to do, this is what we hope to achieve, this is what we hope to accomplish, however, but you begin with the end in mind, and then you kind of work backwards from that. So if life, we've been given life by God, we've been born, uh, and and and death is that finish line of this preliminary race. I mentioned this is a preliminary, then we we if we start there, and we if we resolve that, sure, and there's a way to resolve that, there's a way to deal with death. Sure. Gratefully. Yeah. We gratefully there's a way to to to deal with that. But if you start there and you then you can live, then you can live. Without that, again, you're just gonna pretend you're gonna f you're gonna float around.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, for sure. And I think, well, you the way you framed it up is that like if that's the finish line and we're running a race, we don't have a if we've not come to grips with that real we're at the I think you said we're playing around at the concession standard. Yeah, we're which is a great illustration.

SPEAKER_02

Watch the cheerleaders waving to the standard.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're not participating in what we're meant to run. Oh, yeah. Which is great. What a weird wasted life. And uniquely, well, I don't there are people who live. I'll use, you know, if you can't, if you're listening, you're not seeing the quotation, but happy or productive lives I'm assuming, you know, in the in the world to some level. Apart from God. I'm sure they you know they find meaning or something in certain things, but they're it's it's hard for me to fathom apart from understanding Christ and having that perspective. It's hard for me to fathom coming to grips with the reality of of our impending death.

SPEAKER_02

Well, they they if you go back to the earlier in Ecclesiastes, they're gonna find their purposes in uh accomplishment, production, achievement, good things even. They they can be good neighbors, they can help, they can help the world, they can they can find solutions to medical issues, they can do good things. And that that comes from the fact that they've been made in God's image. Yep. And and and so they're they're good people, but they're gonna they're gonna run through a life and they're gonna try to find purpose and they'll make purpose up for themselves in those various things. The challenge is to get to the end of the life and it's it's stop away. Yeah. And so for the believer, it's just a totally different thing. You the the same things are done, but you have a different foundation, different backdrop, different purpose, yeah, and and a different uh anticipated eternity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it's a different paradigm. And I think you uh well, we we uh maybe we're talking about that this morning a little bit too. That life under the sun is not all that there is. Oh, yeah, right. It's what there is for this time, for this time that we're here. You know, we have a span. There's a span to that, but at the end of of this time under the sun, like God has eternity. And so I think that that part too, it's that's a liberating way.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and yeah, again, does quote Ecclesiastes three, God has burned, this is a paraphrase, God's burned eternity under our hard drive. He's set eternity into our hearts. And so we have been brought to life, we've been given life, we are everlasting. Right. And so that that finish line of death is the finish of our preliminary race. There's more to come, and people also know that as well. Right. And uh so when we have that dealt with, it just is liberating to life on levels that no one else could actually experience. Yeah, once you have that, you you're just liberated. Yeah. Remarkably so.

SPEAKER_00

Speaking of another great segue, you just use the word liberated. Um we're kind of skipping some questions here. I don't want to skip this. Sure. Because you mentioned Braveheart. Yes. That's gotta be top three all-time movies for me. Big movie. It's yeah. There's big story, it's it's pretty intense. I understand some of that. There's some intensity to the movie, but um you wouldn't want your kids to watch it. No, I wouldn't want my kids to watch it. No, not anytime soon. Yeah, but uh that line, um, you know, uh, every man dies, not every man really lives. Yeah. Um, classic line for the movie. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, just uh maybe well, first of all, thoughts on that movie. Are you are you a fan of Braveheart? Yeah, okay. Yes, all right, good.

SPEAKER_02

There's a there's another movie I I really like, and again, these movies are are great movies. You you temper them with, you don't want your kids to watch these. Uh, Braveheart was a great movie. Saw Shawshank Redemption. Oh. Shaw Shank Redemption, another great movie. In that movie, uh, I think this may come up in a in a future sermon uh because Ecclesiastes, we're still in it, got a couple weeks left. Uh Get Busy Living or Get Busy Dying is another great line from that movie.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like there's one too. I don't know which one I'm thinking about, but yeah. I wonder how much influence. Well, I don't know. I'm I'm stretching at this point, but it just feels that's just great. I mean, just I love how how timeless Ecclesiastes is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I thought you were going to talk about how much influence the scripture has on the movie production. I think it preaches for certain. Even it yeah, because again, uh the preacher in Ecclesiastes, whether that's Solomon or someone else, is telling us the way life really is. And so these are not foreign concepts.

SPEAKER_00

No, and I you know what, actually, that's a really good point. What I think is is cool about Ecclesiastes is we could preach that message to to to an atheist, and 99% of the time they're gonna be nodding their heads. Yep, yep. Because it's just reality.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, where where they will derail is the repeated joy in your creator. Yep. Seven times, yeah. They because the acknowledgement of your creator is a big deal. It means we are not the creator. Yep. So in this book, again, the preacher is waiting for the fulfillment of promise where death is ultimately gonna be destroyed. It's not it's coming, it's been promised by God. So this book is grounded in creation and God is the creator, we are created, so rejoice in God, rejoice in the gifts he gives. That's where the atheist is gonna go off the rails. Exactly. The rest of the book, they're gonna hear it and they're like, Yeah, that's the way life is. Yep, that's the way it is. I I climbed the ladder of success, found it to be hollow. Yeah, I pursued pleasure, found it to be uh ultimately hollow. So I think you're exactly right. The atheist would hear the message and just shake their head, yes, all the way to the point, except for those seven statements of joy, joy in your creator.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's a part, and I think uh in some of the books we read, and I think again I'll go back, I think it was Gibson that talked about this and living life backwards, but you know, this eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die, the the the perspective that um enjoy enjoy what you have because that's all that there is would be kind of the atheist perspective. But again, this this life is all there is. Ecclesiastes would say enjoy the life you have because it's what there is. Yeah, this is what you've been given by your creator, this is what you have to enjoy while it's here. It's not all that there is, we but it's what there is in there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and we glorify God in the enjoyment of those pleasures. Exactly. We really glorify God in the enjoyment of those.

SPEAKER_00

And I think in particular, what we're seeing in Ecclesiastes is we we enjoy um that happens when we don't when we don't just look at the gifts in and of themselves as having any ultimate ultimate value, but but we bend that those um affections toward the one who gave them to us. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's great. Oh yeah, for sure. Good. Real good. Where are we at? We're we're all over the place at this point. That's great. Um oh, you talked about uh well, let's go into maybe just a little bit more of some of the gospel kind of focus there. You uh talked about and something I think it was kind of cool, that death is an enemy, which we know we've we've shared that before, but because of what Jesus has done, because of the the the gospel from the Christian vantage point, yes, death is an enemy. There's nothing that erases that reality. Yep. Um, but it can also be viewed as a friend. Yeah. Care to unpack that just a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they're just they're just both true. Um I have another thought coming to mind, so let me segue a little bit. Sure. I I mentioned Sunday that death came into the human experience, sin came in, death came in as a result of that. Uh God didn't sin, we did. Our founding parents had rebelled against God, thought they could play the role of the creator, and uh they threw off his rule, and as a result of that, death came in. And I and I mentioned in that part of the message that you know, when death was introduced in the human experience, what did God do? And I I I uh pressed into God made a promise, someone who's gonna come and destroy death. Uh I I think it was in the third service, I said, you know, hey, when when sin was introduced into the human experience, um, what did God do? And someone from the audience said, Well, God kicked them out of the garden. And if you go back into that Genesis account, that's exactly what God did. And it was grace to them. Right. Because he didn't want them to live forever in this under the sun fallen experience. Yeah. He's he's promised a redeemer, he's promised a rescuer who's going to defeat death. And uh, and so he doesn't want them to live forever. So again, all the way back at the very beginning, not only to the gospel, but way back in the beginning, we realized that death is an enemy. We need to hold on to that. It's still true to this day. Even for the believer, death is an enemy. Jesus said death will ultimately be destroyed when he comes back, and all things are put underneath his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death itself. Right. So let's hold on to the fact that death is an enemy. And I and I I'm I'm doubling down on that because I think Christians can also get funny about this. Yeah. We're not a death cult.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_02

You know, we're not like, oh, death, that's great. No, death is still a terrible enemy. We hate it. And so we're gonna hold on to that. That's death is an enemy. But Christ has literally come. The promised one has come, and he's literally defeated the enemy. He took on death, he died. Yeah, it's lost its sting. Yes, and he rose again. And so he's defeated death. That's how the certainty of death, that's how we deal with the certainty of death. There's only one in the history of the world who's died and rose again, never to die again. Yeah. And I think I mentioned we he holds the keys. He holds the keys to sin and death. No, to death and life. And he has the power, he has the authority to give life away to those who come to him and repent of being their own God and trust in him. And so, yeah, death is still an enemy, but Jesus is so transformative that he's taken our greatest fear, our greatest enemy, he's removed the sting of it. To die today is to be present with the Lord, which is better.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And again, we some of that is mysterious. We don't know what it's like to be apart from our body, to be present with the Lord. But it's repeatedly told that we put off this tent that we live in, we go to be with Christ immediately, and that's an improvement. It's not a step backwards. Right. It's gain. It's gain. According to Paul. But again, we we talked on Sunday that they're still looking forward to even a more glorious future because we're resurrection people. We're looking forward to coming back, resurrection of the body, a new heaven, new earth. So yeah, that's the the death has been dealt with. Yeah. And so the certainty of death ought to drive us into some type of solution. The and we we don't have the power or the ability to solve that problem. Right. God does, and he has solved the problem through Christ. So that certainty of death ought to be driving people to find a solution. The only solution available is Christ. Yeah. And then when you embrace Christ, death remains an enemy because we we hate it, right? And we can't wait for it to be no more. Death will be no more in that new heaven, new earth. So it's still an enemy, but it's it's now a friend, it's a gift. Yeah. We're not to go back into the metaphor of a race. If Adam and Eve weren't kicked out of the garden and they live forever, it's just like, hey, just keep running. You know, just keep exhaust yourself, you know, just in this purposeless, you know, meaningless, heavily existence. Just keep going. Yeah. It'd be like, how it's exhausting. So now death is uh in the New Testament metaphors, Jesus refers to death like asleep. They've just gone asleep when we wake him up. It's a it's a grace, it's a gift. But Jesus has the power to do that. We don't have the power to do that. Right. So there's a certainty that we can't resolve. Christ has yeah, through faith in him, we enter into that life. That's so great. Great news.

SPEAKER_00

Great news. Um, I'm totally punting this whole paper just to know with all my questions. But just because you you mentioned it and it might be kind of woven in here a little bit, but yeah, maybe just leaning into that idea for a second, because I think maybe some people who are listening don't think about it that often. But we we think of we die, we're separated from our body. You talked about that, right? The uh the there's the material part of us, our bodies, which go into the ground, yep, or into the fire these days. Right, and we if we're uh to dust to dust, then you turn to dust. And if we're in Christ, we go to be with the Lord without bodies, like the angels you mentioned. Yep. Um I guess just thinking through one of the things maybe we don't we haven't thought through very much or very frequently as Christians, this idea of there's a longing or a waiting, uh, an anticipation um for the fullness of redemption, for future resurrection, where we're gonna be raised from the dead, we'll be given new bodies. Is it I don't know if it's Alcorn who talks about this? I'm trying to think in his book Heaven, but there's uh yeah, I'm trying to, it's something I maybe have read in the past, but there's this idea of those who have died in Christ are waiting for that. They're looking forward to this. They are so are we. Same, same desired future. But maybe not in a way that's like discontent or or no unfulfilled. Um better than we are. They're better than we are. I think they're looking forward to it better than we are.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, there you go. Um, yeah. With a greater fullness of knowledge, because they they're in Christ's presence.

SPEAKER_00

So that's perfect. So unpack that for me a little bit. What do you I mean, just thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, well, because they've gone to be with Christ. Right. Um uniquely, Jesus said he'll you know, prepare a place for them, and so they've gone to be with Jesus, which is better. It's gain, it's gain in which we cannot fully comprehend because the scripture doesn't reveal it to us. There's very little written about that intermediate state. Oh, right. So that's where we're guessing. Like, man, that I'm glad the Bible tells us it's better and it's gain and it's an improvement, it's not a step backwards. But they are with Jesus, which is better, and and looking forward to a more glorious future in no way, I think more so than we are. Exactly. Because they're just in in ways that we can't comprehend. I think there's very little written about that intermediate state. There's a lot written about the new heaven and new earth, but not a lot, but a lot more clarity on the new heaven, new earth. And um and they're looking forward to that as much as we are, even more. I I would say even more so.

SPEAKER_00

But ironically, in many Christian circles, we tend to over-emphasize the intermediate state well beyond the eternal state.

SPEAKER_02

We are we are not a die and go to heaven people, right? That's not a bad thing to die and go to heaven because that's gain. Exactly. But we're not a die and go to heaven people, we are a resurrection people. We cannot wait for the resurrection. King Jesus is going to return and rule the way Adam and Eve should have ruled, and we're gonna be partners with them in that rule eternally. And yeah, and the other interesting thing about that is we have we over-emphasize basically the intermediate state. We often ignore the resurrection and the you know eternal state, which really we have more knowledge about. But then even in that eternal state, there's that weird sometimes hiccup or fear like we're gonna get bored. Oh, yeah, like this eternity in God's presence, and that's just so far removed from the actual reality because Ephesians 2, just the infinite riches of God's grace will just keep rolling out eternally, and it's just gonna be good. And so you take all the pleasantness of our life's experience today, food, food with friends, fellowship, joy, wedding type celebrations, parties, uh discoveries, experiences, you take the best of that and put it on a an eternal paradigm. It's too big for our minds to comprehend, but it's just like exactly. But those those realities, this ties into all of this, just liberate you today.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. And it's like I'm just I even think, like you're mentioning, when you actually take scripture for what it says, yeah, it's far more comforting to me. Oh, I've shared before this idea of hey, disembodied Joe who's floating around in heaven playing a harp on clouds. That's a little bit weird. Like I'm like, I don't think that sounds maybe okay for a little bit, but there's a part of that now. Again, I know to be with the Lord is better. So I'm not yeah, I'm kind of making a point, but it's just we we aren't intended to be disembodied. That's not what we were created to be, or created from.

SPEAKER_02

We were created from the earth, we were created from dust, from the dust, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And um we are earthlings, not exactly sky things. Exactly. Yeah, um, sure, and God makes it abundantly clear even in his days of creation. You know, this is our realm. We were created for earth, and this is where we will eternally be. It's just it'll be perfect for yeah, we can go deep into that.

SPEAKER_02

Jesus is now the member of the Godhead who is embodied, and he's coming back eternally now. Yeah, so God has so highly valued, in a sense, bodily existence that Christ Himself has taken on flesh. Yep. Went into the grave, came out of the grave as an embodied person. Yep. Incredible. Yeah, incredible.

SPEAKER_00

And so I yeah, I think for me that's uh that's it's cool because that's where the trajectory of the Bible goes, it's resurrection. That's our hope. And I think that for me to think in a much more earthly perspective about what it means to to dwell with God for all eternity, it's that's comforting to me.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely. Um personally that see, and not beyond comfort, that's comforting, but it's liberating. Liberating because the certainty down the road that the preacher in Ecclesiastes talks about has been dealt with. So we're like, oh great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um I mentioned so tomorrow I'll be I'll be at a uh a burial. And so what's interesting about that is I've been thinking through that a little bit and it's kind of always in those moments where you, you know, oftentimes as a pastor, you've probably done the the graveside things where it's like, you know, dust to dust, ashes to ashes, and we are committing the body to the ground. There's there's the sense in which you know we're entrusting that that person who's in Christ is is with Christ. It is better, but that whole process of thinking through that, it's also it's not it's not it's incomplete. Like that moment where you're committing the body to the ground and they're with the Lord, you're also anticipating the return of Christ and the resurrection uh of the dead, and and the Christ is the first fruits, we're gonna follow after him. And there's the sense in which that just is um it's it's under it's probably under communicated in contemporary Christian culture in America, if I'm being honest. Absolutely, I think so. It is a glorious future that yeah, I think just brings tremendous liberation.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah, you you'll stand at a graveside tomorrow and you commit a body to the grave and you see that go on the ground, and it feels like a finality, and in a sense, there's a finality to it, but it's not the final chapter of anyone's story. It is standing in that circle. Yes, it is under the sun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but um that loved one in Christ has gone to be with Christ and is coming back as a reunion. We're gonna see them again, we're gonna see them again, be with them again. It's awesome. Um, yeah, it's liberating. Yeah, yeah. I I thought of an illustration. Um, you know, death is an enemy, death has been transformed into a gift. Um, how does that impact our life? How does that influence our living today? You know, if you were a little kid going to school and you had a bully on the playground, a bully on the bus, bullying your classroom, bullying your playground, and he just he just was horrible to you. Stole your lunch, stole your clothes, beat you up, threatened you constantly, you would hate school. You know, you would just be you would be looking for liberation. Well, if that bully's family moved away, your your your whole uh experience on the daily would be changed. And when you think about death being the ultimate bully, this the the enemy, and it's been removed. It's been defanged, it's been declawed, it's been transformed to still an enemy, but it's it's no longer we're no longer captive to it. Yeah. And it's been removed. Christ has done that. And so that changes the so the little kid going to school, if the bully's no longer there, his daily life is different, has been changed. Well, when Christ has so effectively dealt with death and life and eternal life, yeah, and you cut and you come into that, you know, you come into that by God's grace, you're trusting in Jesus, our our promised savior, and you receive him, that just changes life on the daily and forever.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, then yeah, really cool. That's great. Gospel's liberating. Oh, absolutely. Oh man, this is awesome. Um well, we have meandered through this in various ways, and some things we've hit and some things we haven't. Anything that I was going to ask that you want me to ask from my Yeah, as I I look here, you had really good questions and a really good conversation.

SPEAKER_02

I'm glad to have it. Uh you said, how does the resurrection of Jesus change the way Christians think about death compared to the way the world thinks about it? That's a really good question. And I I'm not sure exactly what you might have been getting at, but the world, if they're pretending, you know, because they're or if they even think about death, they probably run in a couple different lanes. They might think of it as a materialist, to where we're just, you know, part of this earth and we, you know, are a bunch of atoms bumping off one another. Cease to exist after we just cease to exist. We're done. That you know, this life is all there is. The kind of this life is all there is, and we die and we go into the ground and we're forgotten, and we in some you know, circle of life, you know, become plant food or whatever. So that's one way of thinking about death is the materialist, the spiritualist or even the religious have different paradigm, uh, but it's never an embodied state. It's always some ethereal, yep, some ethereal, we become one with the one, we become one with God, we will, you know, unless we reincarnate. We reincarnate, whatever. And uh, so how does uh you know the the Christian view of death and life and life everlasting, again, we've we've already hit on it some, but I think contrasting how the world approaches this topic and how Christians approach this is just radically different because we literally have an embodied existence in the presence of a holy God because He's made the way possible. So it's just a totally different paradigm, if that makes sense. But that's great. So the the people who are not embracing believing God's promise, receiving Jesus as their savior, if they realize that death is that certainty, which it's it's in their heart, and it's gonna come up with the passing of a loved one, um they probably won't want to spend a lot of time there. And they're it it's it's no real comfort to just think, well, this life is all there is, and I just become sod. That that's no comfort. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and it's no purpose, it's no well, you you also can I mean again, I'm not I'm not a philosopher, so I'm sure if Eric was here, he might speak to this. There, I think there can be inherent challenges with a worldview of this is all that there is, right? Because it can breed this kind of was a Nietzsche, this kind of nihilistic, like, oh well, if this is if this is what I gotta see, I gotta I have to seize for myself from what I have around me. And create your own purpose. Yeah, I have to seize from it, yeah. I have to create my own purpose and seize for myself whatever will maximize my pleasure, joy, lever it for my best, my power uh for the finite time I have here, because it's the because that's it, it can it can take us off the rails and it can I think it can breed historically um all sorts of really dangerous, scary kind of thinking. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Also, your your last question, you know, if someone listening today feels like life is uncertain, unpredictable, not going according to their plans, yeah, you know, what do you hope you take away? Well, there's a bit of like, yeah, well, join the rest of us because life is uncertain, things happen unplanned, experiences take place. Is that what I should tell them as a pastor? Hey, well, join join the rest of us. Um, but then then the the real takeaway is but you know, trust in your creator. Yeah. He's good, he gives good gifts. On the daily, he gives good gifts to be enjoyed. So there's a bit of common grace. I mean, everyone experiences sunshine and rain and pleasures and birthdays, and so you know, there's a bit of common grace that everyone under the sun experiences these gifts. Yeah. So enjoy your creator and enjoy his gifts. Also, to go a step further, which we've already talked about, the greatest gift we've been given is the gift of Jesus Christ. You believe God's promise, you receive him. Um, and he's just he's good. Our creator is good, and our redeemer is good. Um the fact that uh it says in Ecclesiastes 9, God already proves what you do. The fact that we have a heavenly father who is orchestrating all things for our good, and he approves of us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, I think sometimes, you know, we come into the family, into God's family as babies. We need to be born again. And so that means we're little. Uh that means we're gonna learn. When you you had five little kids, all of them learn to walk. They weren't successful on day one. Right. It took them two years to learn to walk, right? About two years. A couple years, yeah, exactly. A couple years before they learn to walk. And then when they learn to walk, you know, you you lean them up against the couch, right? And then you get six feet away and you're coaching them and you're wanting them to come, and then they have to turn and let go. And they it doesn't happen on time one. Right. When they fall, are you disappointed? Are you angry? Are you upset, frustrated? No, no. We have a heavenly father who's way kinder than we are, much more benevolent, and he's taking us through all of these uncertainties of life. He's not uninvolved, he's not he's not capricious, and he's taking us through these experiences. We're learning to trust in him, and he's got a smiling providence on us. Yeah, he delights in his kids, and so he's watching us grow. And so I think one of the books that we're reading in staff meeting uh talked yesterday about grace for today, but not enough grace to remove our dependence upon God. Exactly. And I think it was a great daily uh paradigm. And so, anyways, the people who are going through life and it feels uncertain and and plans aren't coming together. Um, boy, trust in your creator. That's so good. He's become your redeemer, he's good, he loves you. Yeah, if you've come to him through Christ, you have his approval. Yeah, he's not he's not there uh to push you down. He's he's he's he's orchestrating your life in such a way that's for your good, he'll wreck all your plans, he'll make your life better, and uh he's deeply involved. He's it's not arbitrary.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's that's a good word. That's awesome. Well, and I think too, even we have people who, as they're navigating through life, the unfair piece, like we've already even seen some of that. Like in chapter three, we have the the God who is also the judge, oh, and the one who he can, you know, the things that are lost to us in time, God can recall those things, and so he's gonna set everything right, and so we can have a confidence in the fact that he he's he knows what he's doing. Yeah, he's perfect and he's good, and yeah. That's great though. I love the the piece about the kids too. It's just that's an an encouragement for me to think about today.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I can chew on that point. I I get I don't know if it falls on us. It's in Ecclesiastes nine that God already approves what you say, go eat your bread with joy, yeah. And drink your wine with a merry heart, for God already approves what you do. Yeah, and I I'm I get uh concerned about Christians who develop a view of God that they're just not enough, doing enough, not enough. And I know and thankfully God orchestrates experiences that are beyond our understanding, right? But for our good. He's he's a good God. Good providence. That's awesome. That's good. Good stuff. I feel like that's a great place to land. We can land there. We've got a few more weeks left uh in Ecclesiastes. Um I'm not preaching this Sunday.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Um got another guy preaching who do a great job with the word, handling the word. Uh Ecclesiastes 10 is uh uh challenging passage passage to preach. Tricky, but it'll be good. I'm looking forward to it. And then we have uh chapter 11, 12. We're near, we're near the I call it the we're in the gun lap. We're we're right near the end of the race of uh the book of Ecclesiastes.

SPEAKER_00

A profitable study I benefited from. And we've got Resurrection Sunday right around the corner too, and so looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I don't know um how you know you you put together the preaching plan, which is excellent, but this Ecclesiastes series bumps right up to Resurrection Sunday. Yeah. Really appropriate for where the book lands, and that could be really good. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. This is awesome. So well, hey, it's been great to be together.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for those of you who've been tuning in and listening in, we're glad that you've been joining us for the conversation, and we hope that you join us next week. It may be who the person who's preaching might be part of the podcast. It might be a different crew. You'll never know. You have to tune in to find out, but it's good. Again, thanks for the time, Mark. Appreciate it. All right, thanks, guys.