After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 22

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 22

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0:00 | 52:13

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_02

How's it going, everybody? Welcome to After the Amen. This is the podcast segment at Frankenbooth Bible Church where we take the content from Sunday morning sermon and we unpack it later in the week. And I'm joined by Nate Mausol. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Good. Good to have you back. Thank you. You're no longer an elder. I know, not currently. So we don't spend as much time together when you're not an elder. But we get to hang out now because you preach, which is great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's awesome. It's good to be back. It's been a few episodes. It has been a little while.

SPEAKER_02

Have you been? Were you on this year yet or no?

SPEAKER_00

No, this is the first time this year, 2026. First time in 2026. Well, welcome back. Thank you. How's life? Life is good. Life is good. It is uh, I will say it, it's a little quieter when not an elder. Yeah, that does that does change things a little bit, but no, life is is good. Blessed uh with an awesome family. So it's great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, cool. Yeah, we uh um we're just chatting before you got all sorts of things going on off of family stuff all the time and and all that. So you're you're busy like all of us, but we're glad that you carved out time to join us for this.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm excited to be here and excited to talk through a little bit more about Ecclesiastes chapter 10.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, before we jump into chapter 10 per se, yeah, uh you are stepping into Ecclesiastes. It's a series. I got a chance to launch the series and kind of carry the first half or so, a little more than half. Then Mark picked up a little bit. I've been over at launch site, right? And you jumped in to to this one chapter. You're a one and done for the series. Yep. But approaching Ecclesiastes, what was that? What kind of uh feelings did that evoke in your yeah?

SPEAKER_00

So Ecclesiastes is pretty interesting, right? Obviously, and um it was uh yeah, out of the gate when when we talked about potentially jumping in on this one, it was a little like okay, this is definitely you know different. It's very different than a lot of books, especially New Testament stuff, of course. Um, so that was um something that was unique, you know. Also, as probably people have noticed, there there's a lot of um repetition in Ecclesiastes. So there's there's that component. Now I would say um these this later part, there's still some repetition, but it's it's different than the beginning. So that helps a little bit. And I felt like the content in 10 was a little unique, but that was that was good, but it's definitely different. And and chapter 10 in particular, uh the the kind of just even the way it's structured um is is different. Uh I talked about it in in the sermon. Mark uh shared this with me, and it's very true. You know, it's it's got some proverby feel to it a little bit, right? So a little all over the place, not necessarily some major thematic unit running through the entire chapter or anything.

SPEAKER_02

So I think chapter 10 is one of the harder chapters. Yeah. I did chapter seven, which is a little bit uh framed up like chapter 10, where it's like kind of a smattering of proverbs, and you're kind of like, well, how do I preach this whole chapter when it's just kind of you know getting proverbial uh words of insider wisdom? But I think you did an awesome job. So appreciate that. Um so coming into your prep, yeah, beginning to look at that, what are some some resources that you used? And maybe you could even unpack like what are resources you normally use when you you're asked to preach?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sure, that's awesome. Um, so first of all, uh you've been talking a lot about this one particular book. I'm not gonna remember the name off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_02

Looking like backwards is probably the main one.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so um we have that at the house, and um, I was like, okay, this is gonna be great because it's gonna really be a great resource. And so I get it out. This is pretty early in the prep time. I get it out and I flip to the back because it actually kind of has like the references to which part of Ecclesiastes you might find stuff in. And I see Ecclesiastes 9, and I keep looking, and then I see Ecclesiastes 11, and there are zero references to Ecclesiastes 10. Yeah, and that makes it so that cracked me up. I was like, all right, that's not gonna be as helpful as I was hoping for.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so that's there's a few moments, and I think even chapter seven might be another example of that.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure that's how it goes, but that's fine. You know, um, I you know, a study Bible is always helpful. It really is. It just can get you that beginning part, right? Just get me rolling a little bit, get me um started. So I I I tend to do that a lot of times. I uh and and I've learned this from you, of course, but I try to get my text on a sheet of paper, uh, spaced out nicely so I can kind of write on it, make a bunch of notes on it, uh, write, you know, definitions or whatever, whatever I want to put on there. So I did that, go through the study Bible, see what I've got there that might be helpful to me. In this particular case, Mark was really generous, which is awesome. Yeah, because he's preaching kind of before and after me. Uh, he went through a little bit too and guided and said, hey, here's some thoughts you might use to guide your thinking. And that was very helpful. It's good. Um, so that was good. And then it just was, you know, kind of reading through. And I don't know, you know, we we talked a lot about on Sunday, like uh the chaos component and like the world being upside down. I think, you know, and and I that was just something that as I read through it more and more, and I think that's a key to whenever we preach, right? It's like just spending time in the text. And for me, it has to be like spending some time in the text and then leaving it for a little while, and then spending some time in the text and leaving it for a little while, allowing my my mind just to even be working on it at times when I don't even realize I'm working on it, right? Like it's just kind of back there. Um, but as I did that, I kind of came through and found, you know, it found verses five through seven that really describe this whole concept of the world being just broken in a lot of ways, or it doesn't work all the time, or it's doesn't make sense, right? And so that's what that once I kind of saw that and Mark had pointed out like wisdom helps us succeed, uh, I was like, oh, okay, I think that can be a really good way to structure this, right? Um, because we do need to pay attention to that, and it is frustrating to live in this world of ours sometimes. So that's great. Yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Well, um, was there anything in particular, this is just like big picture overarching, but that like really to you, as you were like one of the things I have experienced when I'm preaching, I kind of live in the text for a week or or longer, depending on how long you have to prep. Um, were there things that kind of challenged you or stuck out to you kind of um in a personal way that was like, I'll admit this is really good?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, I I just think uh more, you know, we talk a fair amount about the idea of of the upside down kingdom or right side up kingdom and upside down earth, right? Um and so that's something that I've learned from you over years and years of of sitting into your teaching that that's just uh important for us to realize. But I've almost always connected that with Jesus and his teaching, right? And how he came and he he he in the Sermon on the Mount, he says, You've heard this, but I tell you this, right? Like these where he just literally almost turns everything upside down, right? And so I've always connected it in that way. Um, to see it in Ecclesiastes and go, Oh, here even we're seeing really the same evidence of just how backwards this is, right? Um because when Jesus is doing it, it's it's it's almost um there's almost a component of it that's like, hey, religious leaders, you're doing it wrong. Sure. Right? There's that component of it, and that's true. That is what he's trying to teach on, right, to some extent. But the reality is the upside downness has always existed since Genesis chapter three, right? Like that's not that's not new, right? And so it existed in Ecclesiastes, the preacher's picking up on it, and then we see Jesus pick up on that theme too, but also with a little bit of a twist of hey, people who are supposed to be doing this right, you're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think part of that, you know, I mean, we're spitballing here, there's not anything, but just um the law is given because the world is upside down. Right. It's you know, the law was meant to be a right sizing, but then people were, you know, correct take the letter of the law and then manipulate it. And so Jesus is like, hey, I'm gonna authoritatively explain to you like this is what the kingdom of God is like, right? It's our our right sizing, you know. Yes. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00

But that is where the law is helpful, right? Because it helps see helps us see just how things are wrong. Yeah, right, points it out to us. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh you started the message. So one of the cool things about uh just talking a little bit about Cedar Point and your experience there. And um yeah, so you your whole family is into this thing.

SPEAKER_00

We are we are big uh enthusiasts of roller coasters and amusement parks. How about your family? I mean they're younger.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we're younger, so we've not done a Cedar Point trip. We've done um we've driven to Florida a few times and done like Busch Gardens or things like that, which you know, they've got some pretty good rides there. It's not Cedar Point level, but like it's pretty good. Right. Um but what's interesting is I'm probably like lame. Like that's probably the issue now. Like I used to like roller coasters a lot when I was younger. Yeah, but I would say mid-20s is when it like I was kind of like, no, I'm just I just don't feel good. Like I get off a ride, I'm like, I'm like dizzy, and my stomach kind of and also it probably doesn't help that all the food you can eat at those parts makes you feel awful anyways. So like I try the things I try to eat a little bit clean, but it's like, oh, I'll have like six churros and then go on a ride. Like that just is a recipe for a headache. So every time I think about Cedar Point now, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna have a headache and feel bad. Yeah, like it's no thanks. Yeah, it's very interesting. Um, unfortunately, my kids have kind of a lame father. We we will probably go at some point, but it won't, I won't be driving that train, you know what I'm saying? I'll do it because I want to be a good dad, but I I will not be like, let's go to Cedar Point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, we do still enjoy it. We do, and even now, I I I really do still go enjoy going there. But I it is a very different experience than when I was younger because I could just like go. And my dad was my age at the time, right? And he would go all day, all day, and and just ride back to back to back to rides. And I'm like, I mean, I just can't.

SPEAKER_02

I just can't I can't do that anymore. Me and Allie went when we were dating, it was one of the last times we went, or maybe first married or something like that. I well, we we might have gone twice, maybe when we were dating and it was really fun. Yeah, and then it was one of those second times where I was like, Oh, I don't enjoy this as much anymore. Exactly. So okay, so uh you used that as an illustration. It was a great opening, and it hooked it hooked people right away because you had a lot of people who resonated with that, and yeah, some who didn't, and some who really liked those thrill rides. Um but then you kind of use that to say, hey, like, you know, now that you're a little older, there are times where you're a little disoriented to that, and it's not as enjoyable at times. Right. Oh, and it surprised you, and you connected that to life a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

So care to unpack that just a little bit more for us so we can I just think that that's a a kind of a real experience for people, right? When we, you know, we we can think, and people say this, right? Like they have a metaphor for life being like a roller coaster, right? And it I just think it's true. Like as we walk through life, um, you know, there's so many analogies that come through that, like whether it be not knowing what's coming next, which can be the case when you're on a ride and you, you know, you don't know exactly what's about to hit hit you next, um, or just the ups and downs, the twists and turns, these inversions, whatever. That's that is a part of life for us in this world of ours. It is just a part of life. We're gonna have moments that uh we just we don't even see coming, and all of a sudden it the wind is knocked out of us, you know, a diagnosis, uh whatever, job loss, whatever, right? Lost pregnancy. I mean, there's so many different things that we uh walk through and then we find ourselves just disoriented, probably needing to sit down for a minute and trying to, you know, catch our breath and figure things out. And so I just think that that's helpful to uh rem remember that that's a reality that is a product of the world that we live in, and what a little bit about the preacher's talking about. Um and uh so I think it's good to remember that, and it's important because we got to know that that's probably coming our way, right? Like regardless of what our past has looked like, there's probably gonna be days in the future they're gonna look a little bit like that for us. So we need to know that.

SPEAKER_02

That's good. Yeah, that's one of the things I've loved about Ecclesiastes, is it's so honest. Yeah, very real. It's kind of like there's a comfort, like it could be depressing if you're just living in Ecclesiastes, and and I think if you're well, if you're wrongly interpreting the book, it can be very depressing. I think it's actually a very comforting book. Correct. I agree with you. But it's comforting in that it doesn't, it doesn't it strips away the facade, right? And it gives you the kind of the raw reality of what life is like, makes you deal with the facts, right? Yeah, and when you face those things, but then I think one of the keys to understanding the book is when God comes to bear in that perspective, um, it allows us to enjoy.

SPEAKER_00

Even though things are still counting. But and we talked a little bit about this on Sunday, but I think that's one of the keys to Ecclesiastes too, is to remember uh to try to think that through from the non-Christian perspective. Yep. How Ecclesiastes is dark and depressing, right? When you don't understand the other side of the coin. Yeah. Um this book is very real and raw about how life is, and it depicts it pretty accurately. And so to understand that that's how people without Christ uh live, I mean, it is it's it's important to remember that. And so hopefully it drives us a little bit too to you know engage with people and um help them understand where our hope comes from, where our joy comes from to make joy uh make life joyful, um, comes out of the fact that we understand the bigger picture.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Right. Yeah. Um one of the things you talked about in the text, you started kind of you know to work through the text and you Yeah, I think you did a good by the way, good approach. Now we're getting a little bit more into like homiletics talking about preaching, but like great approach because you had a a text that was that was very much so kind of meandering through different things because it's it was proverbial. Yeah. So you didn't feel the pressure to have to start from verse one. So whoops, uh good good approach, I'll say that. Um but when you began, I think you started with verse five or something like that. Maybe first one. Yep. And you kind of gave the you unpacked really helpfully um how there's the example of the princes who are walking, and then the servants who are on the horses, and it's this backwards, like that's not how it should be. Right. And then I think you very helpfully explained to us that that's life. Life is not the way it should be. Yeah. Um, but then you leaned into this idea, but wisdom helps, which I think is that what was moving into your first point through some of that. Exactly. So help me understand some of that tension a little bit, because it's like we can't guarantee things, things don't happen the way they should. Right. But but wisdom helps. Yeah. What are your thoughts on on that? Maybe just unpacking that a little further.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that's um that's where the text is probably pretty difficult, right? Because um, it's like it and it it'll probably get into a conversation we have a little more about the big idea in the long run uh around wisdom, and uh because it it wisdom's not gonna solve all the problems, but it does help us be a little more successful because I think especially when we think it with it think about it within the context of godly wisdom, we think about it within the context of like, um, man, if I understand what scripture reveals to me about who God is, and think about about that kind of wisdom, um, then it just really does open our eyes to understand things differently. It just changes our perspective, right? Because the reality is the the world is goofy, it's not like it should be. We see that all the time. Um, and so I just think that that's helpful to be able to to maybe almost like draw back, right? Like pull back from this current situation a little bit and have a grander view is what's key here. And I that's where I that that was the way I tried to lean into the text a little bit of like, okay, we see these examples of how the life doesn't work the way it's supposed to, right? Or at least maybe even the way we would say it should, which is a whole nother thing. But um, but wisdom, godly wisdom, means uh seeing a bigger picture. Yeah, it means it means viewing things from the full council of scripture. Uh and that really does uh help us be more successful because we understand our current circumstance differently. Yeah. We're not so narrow-minded around what's happening at this particular moment. So I think that's that's uh how I feel like uh it's helpful a little bit. That's great. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, and I think even just kind of leaning into some of what you said a little bit, like that this we call it under the sun because that's that's what life is. But when the framework is that life under the sun is all that there is, that would be pretty depressing. Yes. Because then it's like there's nothing you I mean, the heavel part of it, you've nothing you can cling to. Yeah, Christians have this perspective that no, there is there is life beyond life under the sun, you know. Um, which which is pretty cool. And we're I we're gonna we're gonna press into that more near the end of the book, but yeah, pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's really cool. And I, you know, I don't know, I've thought of this a few different times as very probably off topic, but and maybe a really bad example or or reference, but sure with Havel, you've talked a lot about that, right? In this like miss thing, and it's it's it's literally impossible to to grab, right? And and you've said that a couple different times, and I my mind always goes to uh you know Jesus, right? Which when he's when he talks about the fact that uh equality with God was not something that he grasped, which we really translate maybe a little more held on to because he came to earth, right? And it just is something like when you think of that eternal perspective, I just think those are similar in some ways, like obviously very different because what Jesus is doing versus us, but the point is like uh even Jesus could have just stayed with God, been equal with God, right? But instead, he freely opened his hand to that equality in order to come to earth. And in the same way, when we stop trying to hold on to this life of ours, this heavel, this momentary stuff, uh, we get out of that eternity. We get out of it. What Jesus came very perfectly to provide for us. And it just I it's just I don't know why, but that's where my brain has gone when you've talked about that a few times. It's great. Um, because I I love that scripture, I love that picture of that's not something he uh tried to to grasp or hold on to rather in the same way. Don't try to hold on to this heavel. Sure. Don't like that, like view it bigger than that. There's more at play than that.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, no, that's great. Yeah, we we try to secure something lasting for ourselves in that, and it's it's fruitless. Yeah, it's yeah, vanity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

It's great. Yeah, so um you talked a little bit about uh kind of leaned into this idea of the fear of the Lord. Yeah, and I just want to you know jump into there. That's obviously Proverbs, right? So we talk about wisdom, which helps, but um the book of Proverbs tells us that that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. The Lord is the beginning of wisdom, yeah, exactly. So maybe help for the person who's listening who you know, they're maybe they're that this is new to them, maybe the faith journey is new for them. How would you help them practically understand what it would be like to like fear the Lord? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

That's a that's a unique one, right? And so when when kids read that verse, they go, okay, you know, so um, you know, I think that most people talk around a lot of um the fear of the Lord is really not meant to be like this ultra scary thing, right? Um, but rather uh a kind of a reverence for this is the king, this is the king of the universe, yeah, right. And so in the same way that we would have reverence for somebody who's right, we put on a pedestal here on earth, uh, somebody who's famous or somebody who's got a lot of power, um we would have we should have reverence for the king of the universe, right? And uh so when we recognize our place before the king, which is utterly lost, utterly distraught. Like this is the king of the universe, he made everything, and uh he desires from us to live in a certain way, and we are completely unable to do that. Despite our best efforts, we can never do that. And so when we recognize our position before that king, yeah, that's the fear of the Lord. It's it's a reverence before him that just recognizes God, I I deserve nothing from you. I deserve absolutely nothing from you. And yet uh you still want me. It's it's incredible, you know. Um, and so I think that that that is the beginning of wisdom. Yeah. That's good. Because because that's where it all starts. Because everything else, everything else is your attempt to climb up to him. Sure. Everything else is you trying to figure out yourself, everything else is uh a Jesus plus you, right? And so when we recognize our true position before an almighty God, that's the beginning of wisdom because now I'm open to what's been done for me. Now I'm open to what he's calling me to next. Now I'm open to everything else. So that's how I think that that verse is is is powerful. And and that's why I I do think it's the beginning of wisdom, right? Like it's really truly understanding God.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's who we are. That's really good. One of the things I've even thought through a little bit about fear of the Lord over the years, and I I think use illustrations like with my dad growing up, like he was super loving. Yeah, not nothing, there's nothing I could do that would make him not love me. Right. Gracious, kind, all those things. Yep. But I also like you don't trifle with that. You know what I'm saying? Eric, it's like you also like Yeah, he's not one to mess with. Don't mess with him. And that's also like there's that that idea of fear is a tricky word, and it's maybe semantics, but in English, it's like we think about, you know, the boogeyman, the monster under the bed, fear. It's not that sense, but there is this healthy respect. Respect. I mean, reverence carries with it a little bit of that weight of like, you don't trifle with. And so it kind of even made me think, is it the Chronicles of Narnia where there's a point where someone says about Aslan, right? Who's the god figure in the in the book? Like, is he a tame lion? And I think the answer is like, no, he's not tame, but he's good. Yeah. And it's like there's that sense of like God is um he is supreme and he is the king. Absolutely, and he is loving and gracious and merciful and all those wonderful things. He's also one that we should have a healthy respect for.

SPEAKER_00

And when we rightly understand. understand him um and we rightly understand that he is good um then whatever that next thing is that we encounter in life the next spin or whatever um it it hopefully should help us understand and go back to the fact that he's he's still a good God. That doesn't change. Absolutely. Right? That that doesn't change. When I understand exactly who he is and what he's done for me then that that diagnoses or whatever it is that we're walking through doesn't change the fact that that this is the God who, as you said, loves us immeasurably more than we could possibly think.

SPEAKER_02

And our frame of reference is so small. God is so big and we it's we've you know continue to go back to that but there is a puzzle that's being put together that we don't right we don't see all the pieces and so part of that is that it's idea if you know if he is king if he is in control and he has a plan then we might not glued into what that is at all at all times but we certainly can trust him right for the things we don't know. Yeah so yeah that's great. You one of the things that you did in the text you then went back up to verse one. Yeah. And that's the fly the ointment one and you talked about how a little bit of foolishness a little bit of folly right can really ruin wisdom and that was a strong poignant illustration you talked about the potato salad which I don't know if everybody resonates with that but I'm the same way you are like if I see the fly in the potato salad I'm like I'm not eating that no thanks that's just good and I'm pretty like I'll eat anything but like I'm just why would I choose to eat that? Like I'm just not going to do it.

SPEAKER_00

I I picked potato salad on purpose because I think a lot of people would be like I don't want to eat the potato salad to begin with.

SPEAKER_02

Well and you bring up a point Nate I mean if we're at a potluck my question is always how long has that potato salad been sitting out there's stuff in it that does not last.

SPEAKER_00

I have some things with dairy I'm a little bit like a good choice I thought it would get get people's attention but um when when they talk about that though in the chapter um just a little bit of foolishness you know why do you think you connected some dots what do you think it is about some of those small things that we experience in life that's just so tricky to navigate and like I don't know exactly why that is right I I mean it it's true with lots of of parts of our life right like it it just is I mean uh dieting right like you can be on the path right and like okay and then one little thing right one thing takes you off it so it's true across the board not just in the spiritual uh perspective of our lives that I and I don't know exactly why that is but I I think um I think it is absolutely true. I think you know scripture it tells us that for a reason right and and uh we I referenced Paul talking about the the concept with yeast in in the New Testament too right like we see this several times over where we we just have to pay attention to how quickly things can uh turn and so we we want to pay attention now not in a way that says hey uh we got to be overly down on ourselves if we get there but rather just be mindful of that and and pay attention to that in life because uh I think sometimes it it just it just goes that way sometimes it just does you know I I don't know it's it's a part of human nature I think that that's how we operate. Yeah you got any insight on that's a tough question.

SPEAKER_02

No I mean I think you answered it pretty well it's yeah I think that's just part of the nature we well one of the things um we're distractable. Yeah we just are and I even preached on it earlier in my chapter this wandering of the appetite I think there's also this sense of like we we it doesn't take much for us to lose focus. That's right. You know and so when we take our eyes off what's most important even for a moment we then find ourselves off course which is just it's human nature. So yes yes hey it's tricky it's tricky and that's a battle I think though for people today you you know tying in things about your phone or whatever like it's like well such an easy example right in relatable for all of us everyone you know but it is true.

SPEAKER_00

We are I I agree with that we are are very distractable uh so easily off task and off target um so it's good to have the reminder that we need to pay attention to that right yeah but give yourself some grace exactly it's gonna happen yep give yourself some grace yeah and get back on track.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah yeah uh one of the things in the message one of the things I like about all your your preaching every time you preach um you are really good at being practical and relatable and down to earth and your application is always really strong. Yeah um and you weave it throughout your message you don't just say you know some people like go through the text and then apply it at the end. Like you you you give healthy doses throughout the message. So again that's just my observation from a distance I appreciate that about your preaching. You talked a little bit about like the words we say in the message and then talk through how the text leans into that in chapter 10 but like it does you mentioned some Proverbs and then James. Six different proverbs love the book of James um you know thinking through that a little bit like words and also you asked a question I I think I wrote that down at one point because that it was not a primary feature of your message but it stuck out to me when you said what do your words tell people about you I was like oh that was convicting yeah so anyways um but thinking through that like when you think about words like what maybe talk about that a little bit what do what do words reveal about the human heart do you think and just kind of your thoughts on that whole thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah so that's that part is and this is the the part of of chapter 10 that's very Proverbs like right where he he just kind of hits these random things and and the words part's not a terribly long part of the chapter but he just kind of all of a sudden hits a little bit on the fact that hey there there's we need to pay attention to wisdom in terms of the words that we choose right and so I was able to lean on some other parts of scripture because it's not a major factor in Ecclesiastes chapter 10 but but because it is something that I feel like scripture does speak to it's something that uh we see in a lot of different places as I mentioned through Proverbs and and James. But yeah I just think that it's um it's really important I guess I think of it a lot about um when we think about our our witness to others right like um you know every day we have the opportunity to demonstrate Christ to other people right right and so words are cheap. We all know that words are cheap. Now they're different uh whatever quantity for different people because there's certain people that are really quiet and their words are worth a little bit more right the person that's super quiet that finally says something and you're like hanging on everything they say. And then there's the people who are not as quiet. Babbling Brooks you know but either way generally speaking words are cheap. We we say that right actions speak louder than words right so they're they're cheap they're easy and because of that I think we have um sometimes we're we just use them without really paying attention to the power that they have and the scripture would tell us especially James would tell us that the tongue is a powerful part of the body it has the ability to have major impact on our ability to impact other people and to be a witness for Christ. And so I think that's just important um to remember uh you know a lot of times people will say you know well like truth truth rules out all times right and so I think that's sometimes an excuse to be overly harsh with our words for example right and so I just think it's important to pay attention to that wasn't what I was getting at but it just kind of comes to my mind as we're talking a little bit today because you hear that too especially from the um from the Christian circles right a little bit you hear that like truth truth truth and um and of course truth's important of course it's important but um I think how we say it's important too and I think that we should pay attention to it because I think um that matters so so just something to pay attention to it's it's what you always say and I I just quote you often on that one but it's it's super important right uh everything that we say must be true but not everything that's true must be said right like so just having a little bit of wisdom and I stole that somewhere somewhere but I'll give you a lot of but I appreciate all the credit I always quote you on that one but I think it's extremely true. It's extremely true right and so just paying attention to that because uh listen hopefully the people around you in your life know that you follow Christ I hope they do. Yeah if not there's another discussion to be had about why they don't know that but if they do and we're just loose lipped we just say whatever happens to come to our brain then what is that doing what is that saying about Christ and his church I I I just think those are questions to ask ourselves sometimes. Yeah because that that can be and and we know God works in the heart. So I'm not going to try to put too much on any one of us on somebody else's salvation. But at the end of the day he chooses to work through people and uh so I would sure not want to ever be a stumbling block for somebody else to encounter Christ because I I poorly choose my words. Yeah. So I don't know that's a little bit about what comes to mind I think and why I think scripture puts a high emphasis on it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah that's good. I think in chapter seven I leaned into a little bit of that that's my some of the repetitious part you know and I think I mentioned that message you know it's possible to be totally right and still be wrong. Right. Yeah that's the way that the the mouth yeah that's great. I I it's a good the way you even teed up that about talking about how flippant we are with our words it's just good this is a just a good reminder.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm thinking through that it was it was definitely one of those things and I and actually the line that question I asked is funny. I I didn't have it written down and in 830 you know the spirit just is awesome. And so I I said it and I was like that was a good question. I well I noted that for the future because it it's it's like it is it is a good question for us to all reference even though that wasn't even like the main core of the text right but that's what I think is awesome about preaching in general but this one probably lent itself more to that like you don't know what might be something that just is needed for some people right like the spirit works in that way and um so that might hit somebody different than others that's that's cool.

SPEAKER_02

One of the things neat things about preaching through third service you know so my Sundays I've been at launch site at the 10 a.m service and I've been doing the following Jesus class at 8 30 and so I was sit sitting through 1130 when you said that it it stuck with me. I was like oh that was a good question. Like I thought about it for a minute. But then when I prep for this I re-listened I was like oh gotta rope that one back in it again it was just quick but it was a great yeah great question. Yeah. Um verse 14 I'll read the verse but he says a fool multiplies words though uh no man knows what is to be right and who can tell him what will be after him right so just thinking through that my question is you know you tied in this idea that we don't know what tomorrow holds we don't like we just don't know what the future holds. Right. Um even though we've heard that in Ecclesiastes a bunch from your perspective because this is your first time you preach yeah why do you think that that's such a hard thing for us to just handle that we just don't know what tomorrow ranks.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah um that's a that's a good question. I think um what comes to mind for me is a little bit uh control yeah comes to mind right because for so many of us and I think probably for pretty much everybody but others some more than others but uh control is just one of those things that we really prefer. Yeah right so the planners in the world right like they really um they're always thinking about what comes next right and so when when it's hard to reconcile that we really don't have that control. Like it's it's just not a reality for us. So I I I think it's uh um a little bit natural but you know that point that went with that was wisdom still requires faith. And you know throughout scripture that's what we see is God calling us to not know everything that's coming next not figure it all out. Yes we should use wisdom yes he's given us brains to think but but at the end of the day it we need faith. There will always faith will always be needed. Right. Faith will always be needed and uh you know I think a big component of that is that it keeps us from thinking that we are God that we've got it figured out that we are in control. Faith puts us back in the reverence position before an Almighty King who deserves me saying I I trust you with what comes next. You know so I think that that's why it's important um and I think that that's good it you know is is important for us to remember and and it I think it's important for us for that reason um it probably like if if we had the ability to control you know how what would we need what we need God for like you know it would it would put us in more of a position of control and I think that would be problematic. But I was gonna reference too um but I I just I didn't have really space for it. But um you know in the in the gospels um I think it's end of mark probably in other ones too but um you know Jesus is telling the disciples right like they he you know you don't know what's coming he's right going to the cross but you don't know exactly what this is going to be like but he says what like stay awake right and be alert and like that's good you don't know what's coming next like the your your task is to be focused on what I want you to be focused on and keep doing that until the day that I return right and I think that's our charge today right is like hey even though we don't know what is to come and wisdom will never reveal that to us fully because wisdom still requires faith uh stay alert yeah right stay alert and be ready for whatever it is that comes next whether that be Christ's return or that be whatever he calls you to next in this lifetime yeah under the sun so that's great and we have pressed into it a little bit especially when we we began the series but there are the whole body of wisdom literature is so helpful because it kind of covers it emphasizes certain areas of life you know and I think we can't control outcomes but wisdom tells us that there are things that we can do that are beneficial.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So you know the book of Proverbs is very helpful. Um I think the technical they call it like the retribution principle this reaping sowing that if you do this this will be the result. Right. Well generally speaking that's often true. Yeah and so when proverbs Proverbs tells us raise up a child in the way they should go and they won't depart from it when they're older right generally speaking that's the case. Correct. But Ecclesiastes is that like it's that it's not pessimistic it's the realistic like yeah but not it that's not always the case. Right. And you need both. Yeah because if we just live in the world of Proverbs um then then when when the variable does something happens that wasn't the outcome we expected we're like well this is right a all alive. Yeah what what can I trust? And then if you just have ecclesiastic the the the parts of ecclesiastes that say that everything you know you can't control there's nothing you can do you you could almost throw up your hands and go well I guess I'm never gonna plan anything. Right. Why am I you know studying for the test? Doesn't really matter you know and so wisdom helps us navigate through that to say hey ultimately you're not fully in control but you're still you still should yeah make plans and you should still should use wisdom. Absolutely helping navigate yeah that's great that's good good balance. You did something I have never done nor thought to do in a message you had three big not ideas not big ideas. Yeah not the big ideas yeah so that was that was fun that was fresh that was a helpful way to frame it. So you know I think to set the table for anybody who either doesn't recall or maybe they didn't even listen to the message but you talked about the fact that chaos is just it's a reality of life. Yep. So chaos is part of life we've seen that throughout the series and in the text. Yep and part of the ideas uh the big the not big ideas was about how godly wisdom yeah um and I'll get I'll probably butcher some of this but it it doesn't um make sense of the chaos right it doesn't control the chaos doesn't correct it doesn't correct the chaos doesn't solve the chaos right um what why do you think that was really helpful for us yeah to frame it that way yeah so um I'll I'll I'll back up a little bit um so when I when I'm writing a sermon for whatever reason we talked a little bit about like you know beginning of the process where you're like you know you're just starting with a text and you're letting it ruminate right um when I get to the writing component I've done this stuff for the last little while um and I've found it to be helpful for me for whatever reason I write the ending.

SPEAKER_00

I write the ending because I I know um at that point typically I know the big idea like what do we really want to land with and I really like to to just write that ending to know kind of okay here's where we're gonna be when we're done and obviously it all comes within context of the verse because you've been spending all the time thinking about it and you've gotten your outline of where you're going. But so I I was I was doing same thing I did this time I'm I'm I'm early on in writing and I'm like okay I want to settle in and you know I to be honest I live in your shadow when it comes to big ideas because you're really good at writing really good big ideas. Thanks that's the truth it is you're you're very good at it you these these short phrases that are are easy to to to remember and just great and so I'm like always like how do I I really want to synthesize this down into something and so the first big idea I wrote was godly wisdom makes sense of the chaos that was the first one I wrote and I was I I tried to spend a little time just like before I you know settle on anything you know give it a little time and and I got thinking about that and I'm like I don't think that's true. I really don't think that's true. Like there will be times where we're left going I don't this doesn't make sense it doesn't right and and so then that got my brain going a little bit on like okay sure so what does godly wisdom do and what doesn't it do and and so I you know I I thought through a couple other things that you know it really isn't gonna it's not gonna do that either right it's not gonna correct it. It's you know and so uh I was like you know maybe it might be fun just to change it up a little bit to be and I think it's important i in in this particular one because I I don't want to suggest as you were just talking about that godly wisdom is going to solve all the problems. Right it's it's just not it's not going to and I and I wanted to be able to bring it back to Jesus in the long run anyway. And so I felt like that was a good way to kind of get there right like point out these things that it's not going to do yeah we'll point out what it does which is bring clarity and then we'll re-emphasize that the only thing the only thing that's ever going to fix this mixed up world of ours the chaos that we live in is Jesus. Yeah his return. His return is what's going to really fully finish the fixing right um he's come and he's given us a lot more guidance and direction which is where the godly wisdom peace comes in of course and that helps it helps immensely but in the end all things will be restored when he returns yeah and so I it that was what I liked about it a little bit was it allowed us to um uh point out these things that might be misleading because again like you I I I would hate for somebody to walk home and go okay let me I just gotta dive into scripture more there if I just do that yeah that's gonna make all the problems go on understand it. Exactly and that's just not true. It's just not true.

SPEAKER_02

So that's great. I think it's helpful I think um the idea of the not big ideas is very intuitive for Ecclesiastes. Like it it's on brand is my point with that. Like when you think about the book yeah because Ecclesiastes repeatedly tells you the limitations of things. Yeah and the preacher did that in chapter two if you remember he went on this whole tour about I sought out pleasure and he experienced everything and it was heavily and he said the same about wisdom. Yeah he pursued all these things you know it was like the preacher was trained in the most prestigious of institutions and he still found himself lacking. Yep. And I think that's a really helpful way to say like here's what here's what wisdom isn't but then here's what it does. Like here's what it doesn't do and here's what it does because then it just it helps us to right size what it can do for us. It's not it's not ultimate. Yep it's not the thing that it's not the thing that we can um use to have mastery over life. Yep life is chaotic. Yep but but to go into your big idea now you talked about that godly wisdom brings clarity from chaos. Yeah which I think that was really good.

SPEAKER_00

So maybe I mean anything you want to say on unpacking that a little bit what does it look like and yeah we we talked a little bit about it but I I I think you know I think it's you know I use the optometrist's example right it's just it's it it it's it's similar in some ways right because I think and I I think it just comes down to the more that I understand the full story of God. Yeah the more that I understand the full story of God the more that I can understand the ups and downs that I'm about to face. The more I can it doesn't mean they're gonna be fun. Nobody said that it doesn't mean that it's not going to be painful at times. Doesn't mean there's not gonna be mourning we all know Ecclesiastes three right there there's there's gonna be all that stuff um but it just clarifies it clarifies. I was actually having a conversation on Sunday after church with somebody and and they were talking about how like um life is kind of like being in the woods right and you can you can see what's around you right but you might not be able to navigate a path or whatever. Right. And and I think godly wisdom when we understand scripture and God and who he is and what he's done for us it just it lets you uh start be up above that force from a different viewpoint. That just changes everything. It just makes everything clearer in that way. And so I think that that's that's what I I I would say. You know it's just great um it's it's super helpful to have the full picture. It you know uh and we maybe even talked about this on another Another episode, if I did, I apologize, but uh it's it's why the Jesus Storybook Bible, which is so simple, so good, is so amazing because it it's written from this perspective from up high, right? And so that's important. It's important for all of us as Christians, regardless of where you're at with your faith, right? Like grab that little Jesus Storybook Bible and and have have this bigger picture view of God because it's so helpful to understand everything that life brings to you. So uh I think that's important um to to remember for sure, too. So um and one other thing uh I've been listening to this is a uh little shout out to one, I think something that's pretty good. It's called 10 Minute Bible Talks. Yeah, you've sent some of those to me. Those are good. And they are good. Um I just quick, but um, one of the episodes they talked about um, and it's actually from the beginning of Luke, um, when when uh the angel visits Mary and he says greetings. The word is kaire is this word, and it's like greetings, and it's like a it's like a positive, like I hope things are going well for you kind of thing. And it's it's kind of what we all hope for, and but they talk about this and they were talking about this word chire, and there's another spot where this word is used, it's Jesus and the soldiers when they're mocking him and they're putting the throne, the corn of uh the thorn of the crown of thorns. There we go, couldn't get those words scratch together on his head, and they they say chire, when they say hail, it's the same word, Kairei. And when they were talking about this in the episode, it was just I I got thinking about this whole thing. Like, what we need to understand, like when we talk about like uh wishing well in this life of ours, right? Like, we need to understand this the full story that the same word chire comes when Jesus comes as a baby, and that same word is used as he prepares to go to the cross. Yeah, that's that's the totality that's so important that we have that viewpoint in our lives, that we understand that both those words can be used in both those very different circumstances for Jesus, right? And so I I just think that that's it just jump demonstrates how powerful it is to know scripture and understand exactly what God is doing and what he has done, and how that then allows us to have cheerfulness, to be able to have uh, you know, this uh positive outlook on life. Um, so it's just something that I I thought about when I was uh studying and happened to listen to an episode when they were talking about it. It's neat, kind of neat.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that whole section and unpacking that big idea and even helping us understand how you know it's not like full clear, like the clarity is is it's in it's increasing clarity. It's not we're not gonna have that full picture until we're with Lord until you know. But um that was helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think that's why I liked it. That's why when I landed on that, I spent some time really landing on that. But brings clarity doesn't mean everything's clear. Exactly. Clarity comes in different layers, just like the eye doctor, right? I mean, so that's the thing you have to understand because it doesn't mean everything's gonna be perfectly clear, but it does bring clarity. It still does bring clarity.

SPEAKER_02

Have I ever told you my eye doctor story? I don't know, I don't think so. So I uh because it's just us and the people listening, yeah. Figure I might as well tell a story. I have good vision, have always had good vision, don't wear glasses, no contacts. Uh about a year ago, I was my I was my vision was blurry. Okay, like kind of perpetually for a while, a couple weeks, like just like really struggling. So I go to the eye doctor and they run all these tests or whatever, and they say, Oh, your your vision's fine, seems like it's great. I said, Well, what's the problem? And they said, You're you're old.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, maybe you're getting old. Yeah, and you probably just need uh eye drops because your eyes are probably just too dry. And so just use some eye drops, and and lo and behold, that was the cure. Really? Yeah. So my eye problems are I'm old, so that's fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I have been to the optometrist a long time. I actually got glasses and contacts like late high school. And then um my eyes kind of got better. Like I don't wear any now. Like they've actually kind of improved, which they say they can do. And I they mine were never really like terribly bad. Um, but I've noticed, just like the cedar point thing, I've noticed that I have to hold things a little further away from my face now. Um, it's starting to oh, the joys. It's starting to come my way. Yeah. Well, that's all very ecclesiastes, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02

It is, it's all hell.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly right.

SPEAKER_02

Anything uh that I haven't asked that I should have, or anything, one final word that you want to bring from today.

SPEAKER_00

I think this has been a good discussion, so um, I don't know that there's anything crazy there, but um, you know, I would just encourage people to um, you know pursuing godly wisdom comes in a million different ways. Yeah. Right. And so um I would just maybe say to everybody who's listening, you know, do something to try to do that, right? Like do something, like move toward it somehow. Um, because I think it's just so much there's so much reward for that in terms of understanding of God and understanding of life. And it it really can settle the storms. It really it's not gonna make everything perfect, but it's just gonna, it's just gonna smooth the road a little bit, right? Because you have better context. And so um I would I would really encourage people at FBC, you know, to get involved with our groups in some way, shape, or form, right? Community groups, growth groups are great ways to be able to do that with other people in community where um you have you get to learn from each other, of course, and there's a little bit of accountability to it, which is good. Um I just think that that's that's important. Um or you and use technology today. There's so many different things. Tem the Bible talks, one little thing, you know. Like it's so there's so many different ways to engage with scripture. Yeah and uh and of course just you know spending time with God and prayer is important. So uh I that's uh I guess that would be my my um you know biggest thing I I would say.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm biased because I, you know, the local church is what I do as a profession and I believe strongly in it. But I think I think God has given the world, the church, yeah, for the purpose of saying, hey, there is a community of followers of Jesus who who all want to foster this sense of of drawing near to God and growing in our understanding of Christ and the gospel and what he's done. And so you know, for people who are connected here, yeah, there's lots of things. I a lot of people maybe have heard about the following Jesus class, but for anybody who's like, hey, I want to begin to dip my toes into some stuff, that's my highest recommendation if you haven't taken it yet to begin to kind of press into those things too. Yep. But um, yeah, that's that's great, great word.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's just good. It's good. It it's it's the huge blessing of FBC, obviously, and and other local churches too. But there's there, you know, it's it's a place where you can be connected and you have um a community of faith where you are united under Christ. And and that's man, there's there's a lot of power in that. And so I I think that that's really really good. And I'll just maybe say too, you know, it's it was at the end of the message, but uh the tojer quote is just awesome, right? Like, you know, it's it's so encouraging to me that um we'll never ever be able to fully get all of God, and that's a good thing. That's a good thing. There we there's not enough time in eternity for us to praise him for all that he's done for us, right? Um, and that that's that's just awesome. It goes back to the reverence thing we talked about. Um, just really encouraging to me that we could we get to we get to continue to pursue him for all eternity. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Nate, great conversation as always. Love it when you preach. Thanks. Appreciate it. Just really thoroughly appreciate sitting under, you know, just your God is good.

SPEAKER_00

Uh He deserves all the glory because I I mean He just He's good. So All right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, hey, for those of you who tuned in, yeah. Uh thanks again for joining us and uh look forward to connecting with you guys next week as we continue this. Take care.