After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 23

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 23

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 48:25

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_01

Well, hey everybody. Welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frankmooth Bible Church where we take our content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And once again, I am joined by Pastor Mark Hazen. You're back at it. The preacher of uh this last Sunday's message, but not the not the preacher of Ecclesiastes. It's a different voice. Yes, that's right. But good to have you here. Good to connect with you again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, glad to be back. Yeah. Always good to be here. So what do you know? What do I know? That's a good question, isn't it? What do I know? There's probably a lot more that I don't know than what I know. Ecclesiastes teaches us.

SPEAKER_01

Fair enough. I just figured I'd ask you. That's uh for those I'm most people who are listening to this podcast, I I hope listen to the sermon. It's it makes a lot more sense if you listen to the sermon and then listen to the podcast. But uh for those that don't, maybe didn't hear that. Mark talked about how your dad would always say, What do you know? He wouldn't say how you doing.

SPEAKER_00

No. He you know, when you think about that, he really had to discipline himself to to to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Was it intentional or was it just like a quirky thing?

SPEAKER_00

Oh no, I think it was intentional. Yeah, yeah. And and my dad had a unique way of of asking lots of questions. He was a curious person, so he could he could pull out of you. He'd he'd he'd spend a lot of time asking questions. So he'd begin with what do you know? And that would just be enough to shake you and be like, Oh, he didn't say how are you? He said, What do you know?

SPEAKER_01

And so if I were to ask you, What do you know, naturally? How would you respond to that question? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Do you have any like Yeah, the the natural response is like, about what? Right? What do I what do I know about what? And uh or or you just go big picture. I know that God loves me. Yeah, he's shown that clearly in Jesus Christ, you know, or just things that are obvious.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I would probably say, like, oh, and like laugh or say, hey, or yeah, that's true. It's a unique, it's a unique way to it was a unique way to start a conversation. What do you know? Well, Ecclesiastes, as you mentioned, is uh this chapter, your chapter 11, which is the second to last chapter. This has been a fun study.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's been good. It's been good to go through the book again and again and again over the series, been fantastic.

SPEAKER_01

Great. But we looked at, and it was very clear, you kind of drew that out from the text. There are three things in the chapter we don't know. You don't know, right? And so maybe to re-rehash some of those, I've got some some of them here. We don't know uh what disaster might come. We don't know what God is doing, and we don't know what will prosper.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, those come right out of the text, chapter uh 11, verse two, five, and six.

SPEAKER_01

I was thinking about that a little bit. Limitations, the limitations that we have as humans is a really big theme in Ecclesiastes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So um, why do you think the preacher has this propensity toward circling back around to this over and over again? Do you have thoughts on that? Or oh, just on the limitations? Yeah, just in limitations in general.

SPEAKER_00

Uh limitations aren't a bad thing. We were created with limitations, so they're not sinful or evil. And I think the reminder from the book of Ecclesiastes of the fact that we are limited. We are limited in our knowledge to go, what do you know? There's a lot more I don't know than what I know. Sure. And um, I think that's a good reminder. I think that's a it's it falls on us as like, oh yeah, it's it's helpful, it's beneficial. That's good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I think for me too, the throughout the book, it's like this idea of, you know, we've called it under the sun, uh wisdom from the book of Ecclesiastes, but um the our limit uh our limitations as humans is much of what we just are characterized. Like it's it's helpful for us to frame uh or for the preacher to frame that in a way because I think even though we're all if we all, you know, to seriously think about that, oh yeah, we're all limited, but in the way that we navigate through life, we often act as though we're not limited. Yeah. That we're gonna live forever, or we're gonna, you know, we we have uh better vantage point.

SPEAKER_00

Anyways, yeah, and we uh uh there's a bit of this has been stated earlier in the text, so there's a bit of review here, right? But again, we need to hear it again and again and again. We we genuinely don't know what disasters are going to come. Yep. And you hear that, and again, we've already said this before, but you you hear it and you go, Yeah, that's true. That's right. No one saw name the disaster coming. Exactly. You know, 9-11, COVID. We could name big ones or small ones. You just don't see them coming, right? But they come. And uh so we don't know the future, basically. Uh we don't know what's gonna prosper, what's gonna fail, and uh, we don't know all that God is up to. This is kind of uh he's nearing the end of this this book, and so this is a repeated message, but clearly we need to hear it again and again and again. I felt that way going through Ecclesiastes, all the way through Ecclesiastes. I'm like, these are just great reminders.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. Yeah, that's that's yeah, and I think for for sure you read that and you think about it for a moment, and you're like, oh yeah, the preacher's just telling us the truth. He's just giving us you know the reality of what life is like.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh you use that as kind of a springboard because you talked about you right out of the gate, I appreciate this about your approach to preaching this this text. You kind of unpacked kind of where how you were gonna navigate the text right from the beginning. So we weren't left guessing we're what we're gonna focus on, where we're gonna go. Yeah, but you talked about how hopefully that keeps people attentive.

SPEAKER_00

It can go the other way. Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, we can talk about from a preaching perspective. Wake back up and cover you gave me gave me the big idea and everything I needed to know right at the beginning. So I don't need yeah. No, I think it was good. I think it was helpful to frame up the message, but you um you very early in the message said, Hey, there are there are these three things that the t the preacher is telling us we don't know disaster, prosperity, and what God's doing. These are meant to motivate us toward action. Now, what's interesting about that, and you touched on this, why do you think not knowing some of these key things for some people might have the opposite impact? What why might it paralyze people, do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I think that's more common. Right. Um, and so I that's why the the text is so helpful because he's literally doing the opposite of the human response. And again, maybe we can talk about the upside-down kingdom and the right side up kingdom, because things that we don't know, whether it's forthcoming disaster, forthcoming prosperity, when we don't know something, if you're like me, and I think we're we're all this way, boy, you really start to constrict, you really start to limit, you you really get conservative. If I don't know what disasters are gonna come, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna circle the wagons, I'm gonna hold tight. And he's he's telling us just the opposite. He's telling us this is the way life is under the sun. You don't want to live your life that way. You'll waste your life, you'll waste your time. So this is so practical, so helpful. Yeah. Because if yeah, if you're like me, and I think everyone is like, man, if there's something I don't know, I'm gonna wait, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold tight, I'm gonna hold those cards close. And it's just the opposite.

SPEAKER_01

And we want those predictable outcomes because it's fearful to press into the unknown and not have certainty about what might happen and what we struggle because we want control, which means we want to be the small g god of our own life.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And that's what we're still that's what we've repented of, and we turned to God, and this reminds us that God is. We're returning to it, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, so that this you know, earlier in our even our podcast earlier in the series, uh, one of the things that this book does to me is open me back up to like, oh yeah, generosity is the way life is supposed to be.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh holding things loosely and enjoying what I you know, all of these things just keep coming back up in the text. Yep. So yeah, the limitations are not meant to restrict us or paralyze us. They're just are. They just are, they're just there. Keep living. Yeah, yeah. We'll press more into that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and well, so so you your comment, uh, if we wait for the perfect conditions, no something about we'll wait forever or we'll never do anything, or or something like that. Um, how do you if we get a little bit practical, how do you see that play out in people's lives in a really practical way?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you know, it's kind of funny. I mentioned in the sermon and uh just a one-line kind of if you're waiting for blue skies and no wind, you're never gonna get out on your bike. Not in Michigan. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's a genuine reality. You know, those of us who like to bike, we we're looking for days that are clear skies and no wind. Exactly. And that just doesn't happen. And um, but it made me think of this is kind of a silly illustration. You know, we go on bike trips that are multi-day bike trips, and you get up in the morning, whether it's raining or not, I have to get to the next 60 mile down the road destination because this is a a planned trip. But um, yeah, so it's kind of interesting that I that I mentioned that. Um I I re-ask your question, make sure I'm answering the.

SPEAKER_01

Well, no, I just I did the question was um the statement if we wait for perfect conditions, we'll we'll never do anything, we'll never act. Oh, yeah. I just practically, how do you see that play out in people's lives?

SPEAKER_00

Is yeah, it practically plays out with people waiting indefinitely. Yeah. And then all of a sudden a decade rolls by and they realize I've never done XYZ because I've been waiting. And uh and again, a preacher in Ecclesiastes is saying, Don't play that game. Sure. Um, it's an indefinite game.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I've it's interesting, and may maybe this is not the wisest way to do this, but like as a pastor, you get asked some big questions, you know, like um, well, I have this career opportunity and this is something I'm considering, but like I don't, you know, or one of the big ones is like, you know, I've found somebody we want to get married, but I want to make sure that you know I have the these things in place first or some of that stuff. And there are times where I don't want to make decisions for people. You know, I want to be thoughtful. They have agency, I'm and I always kind of give that caveat, like, hey, yeah, I can give you some insight, but like if if you make a decision and that turns out bad, don't come back and blame me. Let me just give you some insight. But often I've repeated that same thing. Like, hey, if you're waiting for everything to be perfect, you know, before some people even like with kids, for sure. You'll never have a child. You're never, yeah, exactly. You're never going to get the the things that you're expecting to line up perfectly, they'll never materialize. It's that's just life. Yeah. The way we the world we live in doesn't have those predictable outcomes. You know, Ecclesiastes has taught us that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I just think it's really good. You know, sometimes you just have to do something.

SPEAKER_00

You sometimes you have to act because you're never gonna have everything in place. You're never gonna have anything in a row. Uh kids is a good one. If you're waiting to have everything together before you have a child, the time will pass you by and you'll find yourself too old. And you're like, I missed that window. Uh, you can think about it in the ministry, a ministry context. You know, I'm I'm gonna wait till XYZ is in place, I'm gonna wait to do that, and uh, and all of a sudden you realize like he says here repeatedly, life is heavily, it's short, it's fast, it's a breath. You we you and I just don't have the time to wait to act. And uh, and this book frees us up to be like, look, we have a good God, he's in control, he knows what we don't know. Right. Fear him and get after it. Fear him and do as you please. Because if you fear him, you'll have the right desires. You'll have the right, you know, if you're fearing God, you'll have the right desires, you'll have the right impulses, go for it. Yeah. Not without wisdom, but fearing God is the beginning of wisdom. Sure. Fear God and go for it.

SPEAKER_01

That's so great. It's and I have found in my own life times in the rearview mirror where I went like, either good for the for good or bad. Man, I'm glad I did that when I did it. Oh, yeah. Or I wish I would have done that when I was thinking about it, because now there, you know, I had a window and thinking we're we're doing little stuff around the house right now. We've got, you know, it's the kind of the we have five kids. So the way it works with five kids is there's always something moving and shuffling and changing because you know, these clothes these clothes don't fit that kid anymore, and you know, these toys aren't played with and you look at some of the things that we had when we had a firstborn, we had a first child, and how like we're already, you know, we're beyond the baby, like that stuff transitions out, and we have five kids, so like um there's just looking back in the rear view mirror, yeah, days sometimes feel like forever, but the years fly by. Oh, absolutely, and you're just like, man, like that season's gone forever. Yeah, and there was a window of time regaining that. Yeah, and I think even thinking through like, oh, should we do X, Y, and Z? And and you sometimes looking back, you go, Oh man, like, yeah, that there was a time to do that, and that time passed quickly.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And the phases of life and the seasons of life move so fast that before I know it, we'll be empty nesters, and before I know it, you know, you'll it's just you Yeah, life flies.

SPEAKER_00

And we hear that all the time too. We hear that from the elderly, you know, hey, time flies by, and we hear it so frequently that I think we discount it. But the preacher in Ecclesiastes has been telling us life is short, life is heavily, fear God, get after it, get busy living. We'll talk a little more about that even in this conversation, I'm sure. Because um, we just don't have infinite time. We don't uh think about it in the realm of economics. Yeah. You know, if you wait to start investing at 65 for retirement, you aren't gonna catch up. Yeah. You you just it, you know, there's just there's just so many lanes we could talk about this. Don't you and I wish we would have invested in Apple back in 1993? Sure. You right? Because now it's in a sense, wow. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it just applies in so many different ways. It it ought to apply in our uh our ministry context um as well, just doing life with the Lord, fearing the Lord and going for it. Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_01

Uh well, let's see where we're at next for some some questions here. Um I think we covered some of these.

SPEAKER_00

That that lesson would be good to um use as encouragements in one another's one another's life. Oh, yeah. Like uh there are uh so many things that we're gonna do that are not uh morally right or wrong, and we have the freedom to do those and to have a friend, a brother and sister in Christ to come alongside and be like, hey, if God's if you feel you want to do that, go for it. Exactly. Did to have that encouragement be better than it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and we well, it's a whole can of worms. I don't want to go too far, but we can also there are times where people will over-spiritualize every avenue of life, and it's kind of like, you know.

SPEAKER_00

They're they're you can pray about something that's not been specifically revealed indefinitely and never move on an impulse that is just a good impulse.

SPEAKER_01

Which is why they're one of the things I'm known for saying when I'm counseling somebody or whatever I say is, you know, one of the most spiritual things you can do is a pros and cons list. It just is. It's God has given you agency, He's given you faculties to utilize. Talk to good wise counselors, think you know, think through the options and make a good choice and move on. And you know, as long as the one's not inherently immoral, yeah, we have the revealed will, which we'll talk about later. That's very clear. Like you can you can make decisions with wisdom in the dark a little bit, but with as much knowledge as you can. But you yeah, to just wait for God to give you the sign.

SPEAKER_00

And we we also don't know when we make that decision, we don't know if the decision's gonna be successful or failure. But if it is a failure, it doesn't mean the decision was a bad decision. Exactly. God could very well be using that failure in manifold ways in our own life and in the lives of other people.

SPEAKER_01

It's not indicative that you're outside of God's will if the outcome is unfavorable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we we might determine to do something and it may succeed beyond what we expect. Yeah, it could crash and burn. It doesn't mean we made a bad decision.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's very ecclesiastic.

SPEAKER_00

God does not waste experiences here. Exactly. That's that's the providence of God and the sovereignty of God that we that we rest in that frees us. That's why we need these messages to be active.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I and in that sense, the good thing is our limitations should spur us on toward a deeper sense of trust because there is a God who is in control of everything. In an uncontrollable world, there's a God who's yeah, sovereignly at work carrying out the counsel of his will. Yeah. That's great. Uh, you you talk through in this message, you know, you kind of walk through some of the obviously the things we don't know, and you then started leaning into the importance of living. Yep. Get get busy living, spend your life living. Spend your life living. Life is short, and you talked about lanes, yeah. Uh, which was great. And those are derived from the text, which is which was super helpful. You talked about four things in particular generosity, productivity, joy, and wisdom. So just pressing into some of those a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

With generosity, you talked a lot about I think you uh started by kind of uh framing it up like why be generous? Yeah, you know, which was good to just to think through that because the impulse by nature that we have is we we have resources that should be used for self.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. But also on the flip side of that, as we come to church and we expect to hear a message of be generous.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so to to plen plunge into that, to be like, let's really think through this.

SPEAKER_01

You one of the things you pressed into quite a bit was the fact that we've been made in the image of God.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that we have a God who is generous and who for all eternity has been demonstrating his generosity and and and so constantly giving, constantly giving every day, both to the just, the righteous, and the unrighteous.

SPEAKER_00

I I I mentioned in the message, and I want to press in on it, maybe it'll show up in our conversation. That's great. I I said the paradigm of our salvation comes from this overflow of God's giving nature, his rich generosity, his gracious beyond attribute, his nature. This is who he is. So we have a God who is constantly giving. Uh, he has given pleasure and delight to one another indefinitely. He's inviting us into that freely, generously. So our God is a generous God. That was the that's the the main thing that that comes out of this, right? Right. We give because we've been made in God's image. Our God is a giving God. He's He's a giving God, He's a sharing God, He's a compassionate God. We have been beneficiaries in that relationship. Yeah. So when we become generous, we realize that, oh, we're imaging our creator. Exactly. We're not doing something abnormal. We're doing what should have been normal. This is the way I said this is the way life is meant to be lived. So living generously, that makes me think about thriving. Isn't that their uh isn't that their thing? Living generously literally is like this is how life is meant to be. And again, I need that reminder. Yeah. Because as we deal with unknown, I want to constrict. I want to hold on to things. And the preacher and the reminder is like, no, God's generous. Yeah. Give it away. And see what God is God is a richly generous God. So what we've what we've been given, share that. Sure. There's because there's it there's a sense of like there's more coming. Exactly. We don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01

We live with a scarcity mindset. Oh, yeah. As if to go back to Ecclesiastes, this kind of we've talked about a lot, this K Sarah, uh Sarah, like this is, you know, it's hey, and you talked about Carpe Diem sees the day. It's like, hey, this is if this is all that there is, we might as well try to secure what we can. Oh, yeah. This is not all that there is. You know, this Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's also interesting to think along the lines, we have been duped by the world system that we live in. Yeah, that my greatest joy will be will come from me accumulating as much resources as I can and spending it on myself. Absolutely. That's been that's the we're educated with in in the world in which we live. And to be re-educated, renewed in the in the in our thoughts by the spirit, to be like, your greatest joy will actually be sharing with other people. And Jesus demonstrated that.

SPEAKER_01

And I love how you, yeah, you tied in the gospel. That's so that that's so helpful to frame that because you know, we yeah, the the ultimate expression of God's generosity is seen in Christ, is seen in the gospel. God did not withhold his own son, but freely gave him a message.

SPEAKER_00

He shared him, right? And Jesus shared his life so that we might enter into his life. So, what is best for us? It's so incredible to hear this. What is best for us is to share what we've got with others. And our greatest joy comes from not withholding those, but actually like sharing those blessings. It our joy is is uh brought to its apex, it's brought to its full when we share.

SPEAKER_01

So to to uh piggyback off what you just said, that was something else that you talked about. You you moved from, and again, I'm I'm going back to what I remember from the sermon you preached, which I think we were jokingly mentioned, I might know better than you because you're already pressing into the next chapter. And I listened to your message again last night, but you you moved from there to talk just a little bit about the commands of God. And what you just referenced was doing unto others. Living generously is not it's for our best good, it's in our best interest. And you mentioned that the commands of Jesus, and yeah, you to do unto others as you would have them uh do to you. Is that I'm gonna misquote you, but you said something about is that a command given to bend our will toward obedience or does Jesus have our best interest in mind?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, has has Jesus, do we believe that Jesus told us the truth and that he's right and his way is best? That and uh man, I'm I'm telling you, as I think through these things and at rethinking through Sunday's message, I'm just reminded I need to hear this. Yeah. Because I am not in my old flesh, I'm thinking through out loud here. Yeah, I am not naturally generous. The gospel, being made in God's image in the gospel is the only thing that's gonna free me up to this generosity. So as it comes to obedience to commands, you know, do unto others as you would have done unto you. Is this to be like, oh great, I've got to do this? Or do I do I be like, no, Jesus He told me the truth and it's right, he's right. Yeah. And literally this is best. Not only is it God glorifying, but it literally it it's best for me. Yeah, this is best for the world. Yeah, this is living. This is living, this is living under the sun in all of the brokenness. Yeah, this is this is living. Think about um how that translates because you mentioned scarcity. We live in a world of scarcity that's part of the fall. I'm convinced part of the fall. Because in the new heaven, new earth, there is not scarcity. We don't know what it's like to live in a world where there's not it's not marred and marked by scarcity. Uh but in a sense, we get the privilege of exercising that kingdom life under the sun to be like we can't comprehend living without scarcity. Sure. But as we begin to practice generosity and image our creator who's generous, we begin to live into that kingdom life. It's remarkable. I need to hear this. I need to be reminded.

SPEAKER_01

I mentioned to you well, we were we were chatting just briefly we when we met before, for those who are listening, we met before this podcast, and so we're just we're chatting, but um that reminds me of two things. So I was reading out of Deuteronomy, there's a whole section where God is reminding Israel about their faithfulness to the covenant and hey, like uh his provision for them in the land and all these things. So it's again there like the idea of living with scare a scarcity mindset is just part of we all have inherently. It's all inherently we have that. But I also mentioned to you, I think one of the things that stuck out to me, and again, your sermon was probably on my mind. There's a section in uh that I was reading just this morning in Deuteronomy where God says through Moses to Israel, um uh something about uh as a parent disciplines their child, so the Lord disciplines you. And I think I'm I mentioned to you, I was I was just thinking through that a little bit. It's like as a parent, I don't discipline my children for my benefit. Yeah, it is far easier to avoid the discipl the difficult like discipline is tricky.

SPEAKER_00

Let's just let them run feral. Yeah, let them do their selfish.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, if I don't care about my kids, then do what you want. Yeah, discipline is for their benefit. And the obedience is is uh to those things because I want to speak truth into their life. I want to tell them what's gonna help them flourish and prosper in life. Yeah, it's for their benefit, you know, ultimately. Yeah. Now I think I mentioned to you, if I'm if I'm trying to be punitive, maybe that's for my benefit. If I'm just trying to, you know, get back at them. Beat it out of them so I can uh get my way. That's probably my benefit. But but true discipline, biblical discipline, which is correction for the sake for the sake of of training up and and restoring and that is for the benefit of the of the child, and God does the same thing for us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that principle from Deuteronomy is repeated in um Hebrews, I think, twelve. God disciplines those he loves. Yeah. So there's the relationship there. He loves them and he does it for their good that they might share in his holiness ultimately. And Proverbs And so again, when we discipline our children, we're imaging our creator who does this for us. Yeah. So yeah, that whole made in his image is a very powerful thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. God's commands are for our good and they're true. That's just a good good reminder for me. That was just great to chew on. So um generosity was the first one. Generosity was the first one. Let's see if as I I've got some questions prepped here. We might skip some, we might press into some other ones. But you um uh you talked about oh, productivity. I think this is it. So you you you said we don't know what will prosper, but you said we do know something that we knew do know something that's guaranteed not to prosper, doing nothing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

To sit on your hands indefinitely, you will not prosper. But we do know this.

SPEAKER_01

So do you have any firsthand experiences with this in your life? And you might not have anything that comes to mind through it away, but do you has that been an impulse that you have demonstrated in your own life?

SPEAKER_00

Interesting. Sorry, I'm throwing a zinger your way. Yeah. Is there anything that I've sat on my hands and not prospered?

SPEAKER_01

I guess I mean have you have you have you learned the wisdom that you spoke in the message? Is that uh obviously that comes it's informed by the text, but have you have you also been informed through life experience of being like hey, doing nothing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, it uh you know, I don't have anything in the that's coming to mind immediately related to the history. It it might be more um, as we've talked about thinking through life, thinking through ministry, realizing life is short, and realizing I'm not gonna have indefinite time. And I we know this, the book reminds us of that. Uh maybe a little more of like if I don't get active, that that production, whatever it might be, is never gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And um so yeah, thinking through my rear-view rear, that's an interesting one to be like I probably need to give more thought to that. Sure. But I'm oh only to depress myself. You're fine, yeah. Well, and I'm this is But I'm I'm also wired. Um I yeah, this is interesting. I think I'm more wired to make mistakes and pressing into things I shouldn't be doing. Yes. That's my wiring than um not doing something. I was gonna say the same thing. You know, this is one of there, there are um I as it relates to waiting on the Lord, I'm often running ahead instead of lagging behind. That would be my propensity. And I realize different people have different propensities. Some people will wait around indefinitely and then life passes them by. Uh, if if I'm gonna get disciplined by the Lord, for me, it's often running ahead.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. And so I would say that I'm exactly the same way. I tend to be a doer. Yeah. It's the wisdom piece, which we're gonna get to, that sometimes I need to exercise more wisdom and discernment in my doing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, and I love how the the preacher gives it that us that balance because he's not just saying, Hey, go in a direction without gaining any, you know, in uh without any reconnaissance in advance. I know we we need to be we need to be thoughtful and wise about how we do things, but um yeah, I'm the same way. I tend to to make foolish decisions.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm my own per propensity, as they've said, is probably running ahead instead of lagging behind. And if I look in the rear mirror, uh this isn't really productivity, although uh, and we've talked a little bit about this. The things I might look back and say I should have devoted more attention to by way of being productive, is is and this is gonna show up or come up in the conversation, is in the lanes of joy, celebration. Um you're um, you know, family celebr family Christmases they happen once a year. They there's other uh celebrative events. Um don't let those pass you by. Yeah. Because you only have so many of them. And uh so that would be another thing of not necessarily in the lane of productivity, but uh in the lane of of celebration, joy, joy sharing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um leaning back into some of those you talked about joy just now. That's another lane, right? So we we have um uh productivity was the first generation. Generosity, productivity, and then joy was the third lane you talking about.

SPEAKER_00

It's a good segue then.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. So you you highlighted, I think I'm I referenced this um when I was preaching through the series as well, but there are seven different times where joy is spotlighted, yep. Uh kind of rises up from the text. Uh significance to any of that?

SPEAKER_00

Like I think some of it is is I think that through uh again, this is clearly the seventh time where it's very clear that we are we are commanded to be joyful. We need to put it on that level. It is an imperative. Right. It's almost like God threatens terrible things if we will not be happy. Yeah. And so it's a command to be joyful. And I think it's it's seven times in this book because as we've gone through the book, Life Under the Sun is miserable. Yes. There's there's it's it's pleasurable and it's miserable. And there are disasters that happen and there are successes that happen, and it's just a mixed bag, as I mentioned on Sunday. It's it's just filled with variety. And uh so I think the command to be joy is good to land on us, to lift our heads, yeah, to be like it's appropriate to weep with those who weep and to weak weep in our own laments because there's things that we experience that are just in just he mentions in here things that are just not just, right? Things that are not fair, things that are not the way they should be. Yeah. And I think it's appropriate for those of us who fear the Lord to weep and lament those things, and to realize that the weeping and the lamenting kind of makes us homesick for heaven. We're we're homesick for everything to be right. Yeah. So that's appropriate. It's appropriate to see life under the sun as it is and be like, man, this is hard and this is heavy, and sin has really messed this place up. Right. You don't get lost there though, because the decades will pass you by. You have you have gifts every day. You have and so the reminder to be joyful, it's kind of like we said earlier in the in the in the message, uh, death is an enemy, death is a gift. Yep. Weeping is real, we ought to lament, bad things happen, bad things happen to good people. Uh un unexplained things happen, which makes us life hard. So I think the command to rejoice is in that context. Yeah. So it's not a rejoice all the time, everything is wonderful, ignore your griefs. It's in the context of life under the sun. We got pain and we got pleasure. And if we're gonna be honest, life under the sun, as bad as it is, has far more pleasures than pains. Yeah. We just seem to sometimes gravitate to those pains and stay with them. And he's like, Don't stay there, don't stay there. That's good. You need to weep. You need to when when the time is you know when the time is there and it's life is hard and heavy, weep and weep with those who weep. But don't forget, tomorrow the sun's gonna come up. Yeah, and you're gonna probably have friends and food and family and fellowship and and just gifts every day. Yeah. So I think that's the good context for seven times in this book of rejoice, rejoice, rejoice.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and you we earlier, and I think in these conversations, I talked a little bit a little bit about um Bobby Jameson's Everything Is Never Enough, how he kind of frames up the book with different levels. And the the ground floor is kind of our experience of life under the sun being marked by difficulty and and death and yeah, you know, unpredictability, all that. Yep. That never we that never goes away in the sections where we rise to the next level and and and are commanded to re find joy in what we're doing. That's it's not because that is is gone. It's just what what rises above is this idea that there is a God who is in heaven, who is, you know, who we can fear and trust. And when we rightly understand the world for what it is, and that what we have is is what comes from the hand of God, I think it enables us to have those moments of finding joy and the simple things that God gives each and every day. Uh and then the seven, you know, that's also kind of significant. Obviously, we got a number of the number of perfection. Yeah, the number of perfection, completion. Like, hey, there's there's a good reminder there too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's interesting to think through this is a weird illustration. I don't know what why it's coming to mind, but um insurance companies do well. And insurance is a great thing. You know, it's helpful. They they set aside money for disasters. But insurance companies can be insurance companies because there's far more good days than bad ones. Exactly. Disasters come, death happens, disasters come, crops don't come up. Right. But that's rarer than the blessings. Does that make sense? 100%. This next or this year, 2026, you and I are gonna go to way more parties than funeral parlors. We did that's just the way it is. So even as challenging, difficult, hard life is under the sun because of the brokenness of sin, even now, God's common grace is like we have way more good days than bad days. And so the command to rejoice. So that's also a factor back in my own life. I I said, you know, my propensity isn't to be failing in productivity, it's to be failing in rejoicing, celebrating. That's not good. Yeah, I need to be attentive. If I think through these areas of generosity, I need to be generous. That's the way life is meant to be. My God is a generous, I need that reminder. Productivity, I may need that reminder less because I'm inclined to does that make sense. Oh, for sure. But then for you, so there's as I think through these lanes, there's lanes where I'm like, I need to I need to hear this because I need to be freed up to live this way. I need to freed up to be lived generously. I need to be freed up, I need to be reminded to be joyful.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that's a good, another good segue. You talked a little bit about the idea of productivity and joy. And I think sometimes people will categorize. We even talked about the quote of your dad uh used to talk about, uh but uh the uh the that there is, you know, you work, but you really live for the weekend. It's kind of like you have you have you have work in one category and you have joy in the other. Yeah. One is drudgery, and you know, one is freedom from work. You challenge that a little bit and talked about how work in and of itself is an avenue for us to begin to experience or exercise joy. Joy, absolutely find joy through our work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um we were made for work before sin came. Yeah. We were made to be responsible, we were made to be productive before sin entered into this. So it's not sin is work is not a part of the curse. Right. Work was a part of the original creation.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting to think that through by way of again made in God's image.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We're made in God's image, we're made for relationships, we're made in God's image, we're made, God is a productive God. Yeah, He sustains the world every day, everything that we see and don't see. Yeah, God is working. Jesus said, God is my God, my father works even now. And uh, so that again, our work is how we image our creator by doing good work and the work that we've been assigned to do.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's really valuable to keep that in mind. And we know that there's a burden associated with work and that's part of the fall. But yeah, I think Oh, yeah, work has become hard.

SPEAKER_00

Work has become hard, and a little bit meaningless because it doesn't last.

SPEAKER_01

But again, especially through um through the gospel and through um our union with Christ and through, you know, I we're being conformed more and more into his image, you know, he's the perfect image. And I think you know, the the joy of work um can be experienced here and now, like you mentioned. Oh, yeah. And I think in the age to come, there's also maybe a something about productivity is part of a new creation, I think. You know, that's what's my take.

SPEAKER_00

I think so. In the parable that we'll talk about in a moment, yeah, they are given greater responsibility in the master's kingdom down the line. So I think there's productivity there. It's also interesting to think through the context of I think we categorize work like ministry work, people who are doing people who are uh involved in church ministries or missionaries, that that's that's a uniquely important work. And the other work is just gonna have to happen. Right. That's so untrue. Um, it's so such a uh a wrong concept of theology. But I'm understanding my if I'm a carpenter, yeah, and I go and build houses and I don't scrimp and I'm not selfish and I I do it well, that's that's gonna how I best love my neighbor by doing quality work. That that is an act of God. That is an act of worship and it's it's glorifying to God. Absolutely. Um yeah. We just came from creation coffee. You got your cup here. Yeah, to to do that well as under the Lord. Yeah, you can do every job you want to do that. To do that as under the Lord, God's eye is on you. Yeah, he's a great rewarder. To do that as for him, unto him, for others, every labor can be an act of love and an act of worship.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. The beauty of the podcast is that we do a lot of thinking on the fly. So again, I could be wrong with this. Any fact checkers who want to jump in there and help out, but I seem to remember reading like accounts of Christians in the first century in the Roman Empire being like applauded. Well, I mean, it might even be in and I don't know. I'm drawing a blank on where the source is. Yeah. But best essentially being applauded for being like the best employees to have. Oh, they should be because they were they were so focused on on doing what was well in their job uh because they were ultimately reporting, not not to the you know, their their boss or their supervisor was somebody who they were supposed to honor, but they were ultimately, you know, seeking to please the Lord, you know, working under the Lord. Yes. And it uh became evident within the Roman Empire that hey, these are really really productive people who are really good employees who do a really great job.

SPEAKER_00

Right, you know, in their life speech volumes. Yeah. Absolutely. In their life speech volumes because they're literally imaging their creator who is productive as a worker. Yeah, good. That's great.

SPEAKER_01

Um we we had the different lanes we talked about, right? So again, generosity, uh Productivity, productivity, joy, and then the last one was wisdom. Yeah. One of the things you talked about that you kind of leaned back into this, and I think you touched on it a little while ago. We talked on one of these podcasts or one of the weeks you preached, we talk about uh Deuteronomy 29. The secret things belong to the Lord our God.

SPEAKER_00

Things revealed belong to us and to our children forever.

SPEAKER_01

You talked about that a little bit. You uh talked about we we know, we know we don't know God's secret will, yep, but we do know his revealed will. It's obviously most um most demonstrated, most plain. It's seen in Christ, yep, and it's seen in scripture, written down, seen it, seen in God's word. So um, what does that look like for us to be operating with wisdom, uh responding to the revealed will of God? Like how would you, if you were to try to instruct somebody for practically what that looks like through their life, what would you encourage them to do?

SPEAKER_00

Well, some of that I make sure I'm thinking in the same lane that you're asking that question. You know, some of that is going to be get into God's revealed will, get into what He has has shown us, what He has told us. So, so um get into God's word. If that's where God's will is being revealed, well then get into that. And then uh the commands, if you want to get into that, because we're gonna get into instructions that we are given. Uh so often the New Testament epistles, as an example, you know, they the first part of the letter talks about the overwhelming grace of God that has saved us unto himself, and then it gets like, now live this way. Yeah, put off these things and put on these things and do this and don't do that. Um if the commands are falling on us as this is wisdom for life, and if it's falling on us wrongly, like, oh, if I do these things, I'll achieve favor with God, then we're gonna, it's gonna be a disaster because we're gonna look to try to bend our unconverted will to commands to gain righteousness. But to know that Jesus is our righteousness, the relationship has been established and freely given in Christ, that's the generous, generous nature of God. And those commands aren't for me to achieve his favor, but it's like, oh, this is how life is meant to be lived. Exactly. So this is the wisdom component. It's like, oh, he's telling us the truth, and this is right, and this is the way life ought to be. It's a totally different paradigm. But yeah, by way of to get to answer your question, if someone's like, How do I know God's will? Well, he's he's shown us, he's told us. Uh he's he's told us specifically, our you know, my will is this, my will is your sanctification, you know, and he tells us how to do that. So yeah, get into God's word.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I think like we talked about again, that's that's part of this idea of of of making decisions, doing something. There are some things, you know, to maybe even clarify for the listener, we we talk about secret and revealed will. We're we're kind of leaning into some theology here a little bit. But the secret will would be the things, you know, disasters happen, like you talked about. Like what, why, why did this thing happen? Well, I don't know. Yeah, we don't know some of those things. Um but when it comes to living out the revealed will of God, there's some things that we don't have to question. You know, if it's something's going on in life and you're frustrated by something and and you go, I wonder if I should be thankful about this situation. We don't need to ask that. Yeah, you know, the New Testament is very clear. You know, be thank be thankful in all circumstances, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus. Yeah. We have very clear instructions from Scripture that we live in accordance with, and that's living out God's will. In the mystery, we we trust Him, we make wise decisions, we you know, we don't know everything. So that's a little bit about the secret will.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah. Um and it's it's a little bit interesting how much we desire to know that mysterious will, that unknown will. And my counsel would be, man, live in the lane of what you know to be true and what you know to be right and good, and you're not gonna you're not gonna miss. You're not gonna you're not gonna miss the God's you know secret will. Again, don't waste your life waiting around for that because there's just stuff we're not gonna know. Right. We can we can trust him for those things. It's out of our bandwidth, it's out of our job description, it's beyond our pay grade, however you want to say that. Um you're just not gonna know that. Right. And uh so it's interesting to think through I and um mentioned you know Matthew 25, that that parable, but that's in the context of the disciples saying, Well, when are you gonna return? Jesus, when are you gonna return? We want to know when you're gonna return. And instead of telling, he literally says it's not for you to know. But here's the instruction for how you it might it might be longer than you want, so live this way. Right. It might be quicker than you anticipate, so live this way. Exactly. He does that four times over. And I man, we just need to learn that. We have God's re revealed will. There's things that we're just not gonna know.

unknown

But

SPEAKER_00

We're not left like, oh well, I don't know what to do now. Right. No, we have to none of the dark. No. Nope. He literally says, You're not gonna know that. Exactly. It's not for you to know. Right. And uh that's that's good. Yeah, that's that's super helpful.

SPEAKER_01

Uh we're we're just about there. We're uh I love how you talked about how many hours it takes to read the Bible. That is helpful for me.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. And maybe even a little convicting. You know, you're like, oh, that's a little more accessible than I thought. You can do it. I think with that, and I again I mentioned on Sunday it takes 70 hours to read your Bible. So if you read 40 minutes a day, five days a week, you're gonna get through it more than twice in a year. Sure. Um just get into God's word is the real prescriptive thing. Uh your time. I'm not worried about times and how many times you get through it and all that. I I will say this the Bible's a big book. A lot of it is narrative, so it's story. It's a lot, there's a lot more story than there is instruction. Right. And uh, and quite frankly, for the person who's getting into their Bible and saying, hey, 70 hours, I I should probably read the Bible between now and the end of the year. I can I can actually do this. Just realize that there's a lot you're gonna read that it's not gonna be you're not gonna understand it all initially. It's um you're gonna have more questions than answers. Keep reading. Sometimes your questions are answered later in the text, and just keep reading because sometimes your answer will come three years down the road as as you mature and grow in faith, and then also realize some questions are gonna be unanswered. Yeah. And you're gonna learn to live with mystery.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So well, I've got one more. Okay, bring it up. And it's less of a question and more of just a statement as we get to wrap up some of this conversation. But you the landing place for this message, which obviously, you know, the the the the thrust of the message was hey, get busy living. This is what living your creator, remember your creator, get busy living, get busy living, which is great. You then brought in the parable of the talents, which is just a great way to uh these are tied in. So I've clearly Jesus was well aware of the book of Ecclesiastes. Clearly, yeah. Um any comments on that in particular that you want to make just on that parable of the talents and just how we might want to think through you know that in terms of practically living out life?

SPEAKER_00

I think that what stood out to me the most as I thought through that particular parable is here's a guy who was given one talent. He didn't lose it. Right. Didn't lose it. So there was no loss, but he wasted his life. Yeah. Wasn't productive, wasn't joyful, wasn't and then the the connection for me is like the challenge with that in that particular parable is the two managers that were faithful with what they were given were praised, applauded, rewarded, and given greater responsibility. The guy who did nothing with his talent is judged poorly. Like, I mean, he's he's cast into outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing. This guy goes to hell. Yeah. And we're like this that really sinks teeth into this. It does. You you don't want to waste your life living. He literally would have been better off if he like, I was just super generous, I gave it all away. Yeah, had the best time of my life. You know what I'm saying? He just he just failed in this in this regard.

SPEAKER_01

But you connected really well. What the what what was the impetus for him burying it and doing nothing with it? The unbelief.

SPEAKER_00

The unbelief. He doesn't he doesn't believe, and it says in there, he believes, he does believe that his wrongly, he does believe wrongly that his master is cruel, exactly, stingy, harsh, hard. And that unbelief of his master's goodness resulted in a wasted life. Yeah. And Ecclesiastes is just saying the opposite. Remember your creator, you've been made in his image, know who he is, get busy living. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I yeah, it's kind of weird to say, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, fear God, get busy living. If you fear God, you're gonna have the right desires, so you don't have to worry about living your life. Right. If you fear God, you're gonna be generous, productive, joyful.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, and regardless of the outcomes, right? Like we talked about.

SPEAKER_00

We'll leave those with him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, really good. One more week in this book. One more week. Mark, this is a great conversation. I think I appreciate pressing into it. It was great to sit and hear your your your teaching and uh yeah, just appreciate where you're taking it. Excited for the conclusion. I think it's gonna be a great uh chapter to lean into to wrap up this series. And then we got Resurrection Sunday. Yep. Good Friday coming up. So Good Friday and Resurrection Sunday next week. Wow. It's crazy. Yeah, looking forward to that. Be a great time as a church. Yeah. Well, again, if you've been listening the whole way through, thanks again for joining us for the podcast, and we hope to see you next week.