After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 24

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 24

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0:00 | 53:06

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frank and Mooth Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it throughout the week. And once again, I am joined by Mark Hazen. What do you know? What do you know, Jim? Not much. Not much these days, but uh it's Easter week. It's holy week. It's heading into a busy schedule. I'm I'm going through the brain fog of uh it's the fog of war of prepping for a couple sermons. Couple messages. But familiar ground. Familiar ground. Great week. Um uh it's yeah, I mean, it's obviously in ministry a busy week, but for me it's uh the one of the greatest weeks of the year.

SPEAKER_01

Great week for the church. Gather together, remember Jesus Christ, death and resurrection for sure.

SPEAKER_00

So looking forward to that. And uh just a little plug for anybody who's has not registered for the DAO yet. If you're planning to join us for Easter, there's still space. There's still space and time, and we would appreciate that data. Super helpful for us. Yeah, it also helps us to be humble, think of others and register. And it helps us communicate too. Like if there's any kind of uh deviation and you know, something with parking or something like that, we can send out targeted information to people. So it's practical for you know beneficial for people too to register. But yeah, anyways, so how about you? You you're you're kind of wrapped up, landed the plane on the series for.

SPEAKER_01

I did the series on Ecclesiastes 12 Sunday. Yeah, so how you feeling about that? Good. It was a good series. It was uh good to go through this. We were just talking before this about I'm glad we went through the 12 weeks. I think if we tried to shorten this series, we would have truncated some of the lessons, some of the things that we learned through this. So I think it's been very valuable. So I'm glad we've done it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think the the chapter by chapter approach was really I think the the book can sustain that kind of approach to it.

SPEAKER_01

And um we covered a lot of ground, a lot of stuff in here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's a lot of repetition in the book, but there's also enough variation that it was I don't I don't think at any point it felt stilted or you know, I I think it stayed fresh all the way through. That was just my observation.

SPEAKER_01

There are clearly some themes that are repeated, but I I think probably needed for us to have those repeated. Yeah. And he kind of picked them up and looked at them at different angles. So it wasn't like we were looking at it the same the same way again.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

But it was good. It was a good series. Glad to be a part of it. Thanks for the invitation.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, take the latter half of the book. No, it was awesome. Uh so as you look back over the course of the book uh in as a whole, anything that you kind of feel like overarching thoughts that you have that maybe like, hey, I hope this has kind of resonated with people, or I hope that's the one.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, that would be a good conversation to have. So we'll probably go both ways in that. Yeah. Um I mentioned earlier uh Ecclesiastes has a way of um reminding me that you know life is a gift. So the message of enjoy the gift falls on us as we go through the book. Um so just a reminder of that life is a gift is great. Uh the fact that everything comes to us as a gift, we we come here empty-handed, we leave empty-handed. So not only enjoying life, but also um holding things open-handed. Uh that also for me has an impact on sharing the gifts that I've received, not hoarding them, not keeping them. They're not mine, they're gifts given to me, gifts to be shared. So generosity um it falls in there as well. Uh, and then and then some of that uh that shows up throughout the book is life's brevity. You know, life is just short, life goes by quickly, and so there's a lot attached to that. The whole matter of like, you know, get busy living. We've we talked about that more probably last week. But that just get after it.

SPEAKER_00

That seems to be a really significant theme all the way through.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So areas in which you want to develop, um, areas in which you don't want to develop, just don't disciple yourself in those lanes. Uh so the the brevity of life, the shortness of life, uh the life is a gift, all of those obviously fall heavy on me. How about yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Anything that I mean, I think you hit some of the main ones for me. I would agree uh that those are kind of the the key ones. I think part of it too is again, it's a little bit nuanced, it's it's going along with what you said, but I think having right expectations of the world that we live in. I think we have this false notion that we can secure or or seize or gain something for ourselves from um from this world that's that we can hang on to or cling to. So it's again connected to the brevity of life, but I think um helping us just understand, yeah, hey, this is time is limited. Uh everything we have, this is uh this is a season, and um, and it's living within that, living within the limitations of the life that we have is probably one of the big themes for me.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. It was also interesting. I'm thinking as you say that, uh, the early chapters, you have the preacher who put his ladder against several walls, yeah, thinking, I'm gonna find I'm gonna find permanent happiness here, you know. And um and then he puts his ladder at the end, like the the ultimate end is to to know God, to fear God, and to to do his will, keep his commands. And so that's interesting too, because we that was early on. Some of that his search, his search for meaning, significance, permanence, yeah, and his inability to find that under the sun and then where he lands.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and then I think, well, you touched on it too, joy and contentment are just significant themes throughout the book.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Which is almost feels paradoxical because the book is so heavy and at times it's uh so jarring. You know, I think it's uh it's kind of um it presents material that a lot of us don't like to think about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so, but I think the the with the intention of helping us to see clearly and yeah, and I think it gives us a good paradigm as well because it it talks about life under the sun, which is filled with complexities and mysteries and uncertainties and difficulties.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I think genuinely we ought to grieve those things. Yeah. Because it's not the way it ought to be. And so it gives us the capacity, the um this is right to grieve these wrongs. And at the same time, just recognizing life is short and and in even in the midst of all of the uncertainties and perplexities, we're daily loaded with gifts. And when we're in those seasons, we can sometimes forget that. Overlook them. And so both are there. Um man, we well, as the New Testament says, we grieve with those who grieve and rejoice with those who rejoice, and those sometimes happen at the same time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. One other thing just kind of popping out my my brain in terms of just thinking through the whole series, it's the the fact that um by nature we're kind of upside down. And I think often we have this default where we have a we hold a high view of self and maybe a low view of God, and I think the book helps us to reorient that thinking and say, hey, no, like we we have to have a right understanding of who we are, our limitations, our abilities, what we can do in life, and have a very high view of God. And I think the author does that, you know, especially with those seven moments. Oh, yeah. Where he talks about gift, and then at the end of the book, uh, it's it uh his ability to to lift his head above um the things that we see and to have a little bit more of a bird's eye view of who God is and what he's done. I think that helps us uh yeah take comfort in the fact that there is a God who is far bigger, far more knowledgeable than us, and uh our limitations are not a a a vice, right? It's an opportunity to trust him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's a good reminder to be reminded that we're small and that we have finitude and uh and we are limited. Uh that that's a good reminder because it also frees us from trying to take control of things that we can't control. Exactly. And uh so it's a good reminder. The whole book has been great. I appreciate the study.

SPEAKER_00

Awesome. I think that's pretty. I think we covered a lot of graphic. Yeah. Well, jumping into your message, um, you began, you talked about relationships have rules, and began to talk through that. And then one of the there was a few moments I think I shared with you that I found very enjoyable as the listener to listen to, just fun. But you talked about uh the five love languages, which I've read through that.

SPEAKER_01

Gary Chapman. 1992 is when that book published.

SPEAKER_00

1992. So you said you were married at that point, yep. Um, and that book came out. It was just a it was the rage. Everyone's reading it. So you started to read that. And uh, I'll just pause here for a moment because it was one of my favorite parts of the message. You talked about how as you guys were going through Lynn kept identifying, oh, that's my love language.

SPEAKER_01

I like that one too. Apparently, she has all five love languages.

SPEAKER_00

And I think you said they're they operate in the mysterious rhythm, which you're trying to still figure out.

SPEAKER_01

Still a mystery.

SPEAKER_00

Wonderful. So great. Uh that was awesome.

SPEAKER_01

Um the New Testament tells us to live with our spouse in an understanding way. And it's it's a lifetime project. And that's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, great. Uh well, talk let's talk about the love languages just for a minute because you unpacked that a little bit. So um, you know, how helpful would you say some of those are?

SPEAKER_01

And that's interesting. Obviously, I don't want to speak negatively of the book. It sold 20 million copies and obviously has some great. Yeah, obviously has some enduring uh in impact. Um I get a little funny about those. I I think the the value of the book is it teaches us there are a variety of ways to give and express love. Yeah, and uh that's probably the most enduring value of the book. Sure. Um I get a little bit goofy. I'm like, five ways, maybe seven? You know, is there nine? Does it have to be five? That's not exactly some of my goofiness. Sure. Uh but I think the book does have some value and the value for us even then. And it was funny. I mean, we literally laughed about it at the time. Every love language Lynn had them. And uh, but I think again, that's a little bit true of all of us. And I think the book, if I would go back and read it, he probably tempers us reading it that way. Oh, I'm sure. And uh so yeah. Yeah, but it was it was helpful for us then. I think the biggest help for us then is we were newly married, and just to realize, oh, there's ways that I think I'm expressing love that just doesn't fall on her at all. That's just like that's what you do type thing. And uh, so that was helpful. Um But relationships do have rules, and we learn them. We learn them through success and failure.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yes, we do. Uh I remember, it's just a just fired off my brain, but when I interned for you back in the day many years ago, it was the year I got married, and you tasked me with teaching a class on marriage. I don't know if you remember that.

SPEAKER_01

Boy, I probably gave you Piper's book.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, this momentary marriage.

SPEAKER_01

That's not an easy book, too. I'm proud of you for doing that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I took, and I remember I remember in the class there were people who were like, Oh, we've been married for 40 years, and it was like my first year of marriage. So that was uh a lesson. Yeah, a lesson in humility, which is great. But uh yeah, uh good book. I don't know, uh going back to the love languages, yeah, are there any that you resonate with, or is it kind of like eh, not necessarily that's the other thing.

SPEAKER_01

I think they change over time as well. Uh when I was a little kid growing up, I was a cuddler. And uh and so to either crawl up on mom's lap or grandpa's lap, and and you know that was that was special. And so I think you know, physical touch with the love language, but I I think you as as I said even in the message, as relationships mature and change, yeah, the the rules mature and change, and the paradigms of giving and receiving love mature and change. So I think that's true as well. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I would say the same thing. I don't think there's any one particular one I resonate with and you know, more than others, but yeah, probably helpful, as you mentioned, just in terms of thinking through the way that we, you know, in relationships, we're not playing checkers. It's not not everybody moves the same way. People are different, and we have to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and you have you have five children, I have four. Right. And and you see them in your kids, different ways in which you interact with them and different ways in which they respond to discipline, different ways they respond to, you know, love. And uh so it's helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's great. Uh moving on in the message, you kind of early on in the message talked about the fact that there are we you know, we have a relationship with God, and that's one of the blessings of understanding the gospel, that we we you know, God is not. He's initiated the relationship. Exactly. Made it possible, made it possible and uh made it available. The fact that he's not impersonal, we can know God, we can have a relationship with him. You you unpacked uh early on the fact that in our relationship with God, and as we learn that relationship with God, there are certain ways that some of us might bring God pleasure that might be different for other relationships. For sure. Which was interesting. I don't know if I thought a whole lot about that.

SPEAKER_01

I I connected that to being image bearers. You know, we are unique image mirrors of God, but we're not the same. We're very different. Right. And so we have different uh personalities, temperaments, likes, dislikes, uh different skills and abilities. And um, so yeah, I I I talked about that. If you're artistic or creative or productive, right, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that was a good thought. It was a good good way to think through. And then you you tied in arrogant.

SPEAKER_01

Ephesians Ephesians five was find out what pleases the Lord. That's where that came from. Right. And it's and it talks about the fact that we've been brought into a relationship. The context is you've been brought in, you're now children of the light. You know, we're no longer children of the darkness, we're children of the light. That's that paradigm and that passage of Ephesians 5. And then he just says, Find out what pre pleases the Lord. And that's just an interesting phrase because um we don't live in relationships, the rules aren't the focus of the relationship, but the rules are there. Right. And so even in our relationships with one another, we find out what pleases the other person. We do those things. And so to think of that on a our relationship with God, the divine, that's pretty, pretty neat to think through.

SPEAKER_00

That is cool. You you jumped into the story of Eric Little.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I like Eric Little a lot. I've read a couple biographies.

SPEAKER_00

Incredible story. Yeah, I I don't know if I've read a biography per se. I'm very familiar with this story. Maybe I've read like a short one of the ones that have m multiple people. And we have a little uh I just went through our basement this week. I found a DVD. There's like uh a little kids uh uh you know biography that we've played for kids when they were young. So great story. Um you another moment that I really enjoyed, uh very, very funny, when you talked about how you know Eric Little for him, when he ran, he could feel God's pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And I know that the same for you. No, I do not feel God's pleasure when I run. Yeah, nor I.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you said you felt the angel of death was chasing you, which is great. Um so thinking through that a little bit, um you know, would you say uniquely in your experience, your relationship with the Lord, there are things that you have found that have have uniquely in the way that you're wired bring God pleasure in your life through your life?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think even pulling back a little bit from that, um things that are not immoral, that are pleasurable that we do, it's and those, and as we understand those as being gifts from God, it's like us giving gifts to our grandkids or our kids, and we want them to enjoy them. And when we see them enjoying them, we're pleasured by that. Oh, that's fantastic. I just gave you know Watson a gift and he is having all sorts of fun with that. Uh and so to think of that in the context of we are in a relationship with God and he loads us with gifts, even even things that we enjoy doing. I think things that again are not immoral, things that are moral that we enjoy doing, right? It's it's interesting to think that God delights in that. I think we often, as Christians, put God in a narrow box that he only likes certain things, and that box is pretty small. Right. And so the Ecclesiastes helps us widen that box way out. Like that box is big. We are God's children, made in his image, redeemed unto him through Jesus Christ. It's a big, it's a big lane. We'll talk about that a little bit later, about the just the freedom of being in Christ. And so I just think there are things that we do that we enjoy, and if we understand them rightly, we can understand all this brings God pleasure when I'm being pleased. So when I'm enjoying my family who all come over and we're playing games and just enjoying the relationship of one another, that brings God pleasure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's great, it's super helpful.

SPEAKER_00

And I think it's also um maybe freeing for the listener a little bit to think through the fact that the things that bring God pleasure are not begrudging to us. They don't have to be things that we're like, boy, I you know, I don't want to do this, but I guess it brings God pleasure. Like our satisfaction, contentment, joy in the gifts he gives are one of the ways that we glorify God here. That's very well, I think we talked about this earlier in the series. Uh we brought out Desire in God, which is obviously one of his big, you know, that Christian hedonism, it's it's enjoying God and um yeah, anyways, I think that's that's that's a pretty good way to think through it.

SPEAKER_01

So the thing God is most glorified in me when I'm most satisfied in him, I think is the exact of how he phrases that. No, I think it's a big deal. I I Eric Little, it was interesting to see, you know, to hear him say and have that recorded, you know, God made me fast, and when I run, I feel his pleasure. It's just fascinating. If you ever watch videos of him running, it's interesting because most people had head down, half bent over, and there's his head's thrown back, his chest is out. He's it's like he's looking to the clouds.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And he's just running, he's fully loving it, fully enjoying it. And he's like, Man, this is a worship event for me. God's made me this way. Yeah, uh, I'm not a runner. So you, you know, to get specific, it would be like, what are the things that I do that just are really pleasurable? And uh and those are gonna be uniquely different. I'm not a runner, so I'm like, I'm I'm uniquely inquisitive, you uh just insatiably curious. And so I like to press into things, yeah. Like the five love languages. There's five, maybe there's seven. You know, let's press into that. So I like to I like to uh ask questions, I'm very uh uh inquisitive, and uh and then when I discover things, the sharing of those things with others, yeah. I love that. I love doing that. And I think, oh, God's made me this way. And uh so we all have we all have unique ways. I my wife is a gardener, she can spend all day with her hands in the dirt and and love that. Yeah, and God's made her that way. And I think she can stand back from a day in the garden and be pleased herself and realize that this is pleasing to God. You know, he's not just pleased when I get up in the morning and read my Bible, he's pleased with all of my life, and when I can do all of these things in a way as unto him.

SPEAKER_00

So that's a great, great way to phrase that or think through that. I think that's good. That's really helpful. Uh for me personally.

SPEAKER_01

Do you like mowing your lawn in straight lines?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I do. I do. But it's probably not, you know, here while I'm more money.

SPEAKER_01

You stand back at the end of the lawn mowing, you're like, that's great, that's a good job done.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me it's funny because I I I enjoy mowing my lawn because I get to sit there and think.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm I'm a ponderer. Oh, so I mean, so that's one of the things I think it's just I enjoy thinking about things. And I think um I have a wandering mind, and it's just it's yeah. For me, that's part of the unique way I'm I am also, you know, somebody I like goals. So I will say that. I have goals.

SPEAKER_01

Accomplishment of a task.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. But in terms of like the the straight lines, like it, you know, I'm more like, hey, I got the job done. It's it's good enough to move on to the next thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So uh but for me that's kind of the I I bring that up because you know, in the New Testament it talks about whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. Sure. Whether you eat or drink, eating and drinking is really basic. And so I I think, you know, as we begin to do life in the presence of God and bring God into all of our life, all of all of life matters in that sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And he's not excluded to certain lanes of our life. And so we bring him into all of our life, and we can stand back and take enjoyment and task accomplished, goals, yeah. And and and God, God's in that. And uh so I think it's a whole matter of, and I think Ecclesiastes coaches us that way. Yeah, um, God permeates all of life. Yeah, and when we recognize that, we really get freed up and and things become worshipful that are just quote normal. Yeah. So that's great. Drinking orange juice to the glory of God. Absolutely. Yeah, whether you eat or drink.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. Um, you it's a little bit in that same lane because then you kind of shifted to talking about point one. You said be in awe of God and do as you please. That was a great reminder. Yeah. So just a really helpful way to do that. And then you you kind of unpacked um some of what that means, and then I think there's a moment where in particular you kind of leaned into some of the young people in the room, which was, I think, a really good moment in the message.

SPEAKER_01

Well, because the the author does that. He mentions youth and usefulness six times over. So he's clearly talking to a young audience at this point.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So uh the I the direct quote I think you said when you kind of at least service three, the one I was at, listened to and then you know took notes in you, you kind of leaned in, hey, young people in the room, and you mentioned there's a f quite a few that are younger than me.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, majority.

SPEAKER_00

So desire God, learn to desire God, and then do as your heart desires.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um you want to maybe unpack that a little further?

SPEAKER_01

As we um, I mean, God has revealed himself so that we might know him. And so as we grow in our knowledge of him, and as you grow in your knowledge of him, you're gonna grow in your appreciation of him. Yeah. Um, we do that with with relationships today. People that we fear, other people in flesh, you know, people that we uh esteem or stand in awe of, we've learned about them. So God's revealed himself so that we can grow in our knowledge of him. As our knowledge of him grows, our appreciation of him go grows. Sure. And so that's where I'm like, desire God and learn to desire God. Really press into that relationship. It's accessible to you. I mean, even in him, we live and move and have our being. He's, you know, he's present and he wants to be known. And he's revealed himself so that he might be known. So as you grow in your knowledge of him, your appreciation of him grows, as your appreciation of him grows, he begins to morph the desires of your heart on his own. That's something that he does. Yeah, and it that's remarkable. And so, yeah, learn to desire God and then do as your heart desires, because your heart is going to be discipled in the right ways. Yeah. Um, so as I learned my wife, I learned what pleases her and what annoys her, and I don't do the things that annoy her, I do the things that please her, and so there's a bit of that transfer over to our relationship with God. We he changes our desires because he's risen in our affections.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It reminds me, just thinking through this, but in in the Psalms, it says, you know, delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. And I think sometimes when we read that psalm, we we tend to like to focus on the latter half of that. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01

I really desire this over here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the God's a cosmic genie that wants to grant all your greatest wishes, and the the first half of that kind of frames up the second half. Hey, delight yourself in the Lord. Yeah. And so if if God becomes our treasure, our greatest delight, if we take uh find our joy and satisfaction anchored in him, yeah, who he is, what he's done, um then the giving of the desires of our heart, well, our our heart then is fixed on him changed. And and absolutely, and he's as you mentioned, he's accessible. He he gives us himself.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And the more we press into that relationship, the more we we know. Know him, the more he the more accessible he becomes throughout the duration of that relationship. So um I think that's probably a uh a helpful thing to think through is that you know we when we find our joy and satisfaction in him, you know, it sh it shapes us, changes us. Yeah. And uh our desires change in a great way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's also true that the more I desire him, the more I actually enjoy other things. Oh, yeah. Which is that it's kind of an interesting paradox. So the more I enjoy God, the more I'll enjoy everything else.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

If I try to enjoy everything else and God's just a means to get there, I won't enjoy anything. And my life will be miserable and I'll be disillusioned with God.

SPEAKER_00

And that's Ecclesiastes.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

That's what we've learned from the book. Absolutely. And I think uh it's it's going back a little ways, but I think that's some of the sections I pressed into a little bit was that you um we we have a tendency to to idolize the the gifts.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00

To make the gifts ultimate.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And they don't they can't sustain that. Right. You know, they they don't they don't bear that kind of weight, and so it's understanding that the giver is ultimate, the more we know him, appreciate him, enjoy him, yeah, it helps us to rightly see the gifts for what they are. Yep. Not for what they, you know, we what we presume them to be falsely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. There yeah, even on a even on a self salvific level, sure. Uh I think as some of us were young and growing up in church, we may have initially been inspired to receive Jesus as our savior to escape hell, which is a proper motivation. Sure. But that that paradigm for salvation won't hold weight. Right. God has saved us unto himself so that we might have him.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And with him come all sorts of gifts, including eternal life and heaven and you know, all the all those things. We can even esteem those things and have God secondary to that, which is just broken. So but learning to desire God because He's the greatest treasure, when you when that when that is the goal and when that happens, you begin to joy everything else. Yeah. And uh everything else that comes along with that, and it's just it's good. Well to drive it the other way is just a upside down.

SPEAKER_00

And I think it's even helpful to think through there's there are times where we in our pursuit of our relationship with God, we um yeah, again, falsely assume that the blessings that come with being saved are only in down the road.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, no, they're like no.

SPEAKER_00

No, they're they're meant to be experienced here now. Absolutely abundant is available to us today. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Um again, yeah it's in part right i the fullness of it is to you know it includes grieving the things that are wrong and rejoicing over the gifts that we have. Yeah, both. Yeah. No, and uh, and the and the deeper, the more you desire God, the more you learn to desire God, the deeper you go with him, the deeper that relationship goes, you're just gonna run into more good news.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And that that is fantastic. Where you're not gonna run into something that you're like, ooh, you know, it's it's more good news the deeper you go with him. So it's really good. He's the he is the infinite treasure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and to go back to desiring God, what is it, uh Piper in the beginning, he tries to, you know, he he presses into amending, you know, so to speak, the Westminster confession. You know, the chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying him forever, you know, which is uh interesting way to think. That's great. Um Hey, moving in to the text a little further, you so it talks about youthfulness. Yeah. Six times, I think you mentioned earlier in the keep.

SPEAKER_01

He's clearly referring to youth. Do you desire God while you're young, do it now, basically.

SPEAKER_00

Then he moves into aging. A poetic description of aging. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um he's doing he's doing that on purpose because he's contrasting between you're just not going to be young all that long, exactly. It's really quickly. But the poetic description of age.

SPEAKER_00

And when he moves into that, you it's almost somewhat comical. You mentioned a little bit uh the way that it's very vivid, but um this is just a more of a fun question. Of the of the descriptions he makes of aging, are there any that you tend to resonate with more than others right now?

SPEAKER_01

Probably every one of them. Okay. You know, um, all up until I was 50 years old, I never wore glasses. I didn't need them. I had perfect vision, perfect vision, near nearsighted, far-sighted. I mean, just could see everything perfectly. And they reached a point in time where I'm like, I can't see that number on my watch. Yeah. And uh and I'm like, what's going on with me? And so now now I wear glasses, uh, largely for reading. I don't need them regularly, but now I'm finding I'm wearing them all the time. Right. Um, the other night we were watching, we've been watching March Madness, and which has been a lot of fun. And uh I'm watching the University of Michigan team, and and they've got a coach, and uh his haircut's not all that different than mine. I'm like, oh man, I like that haircut. And Lynn's like, you don't have that hair stamina. That's you're right. I don't. And uh so yeah, I'm not as strong as I used to be. Um if I if I if something wakes me up in the middle of the night, you know, the poetic description talks about that. Something wakes me up in the middle of the night, my night's shot. I'm up. Um I'm up for good now. So yeah, you read through the whole description. I think the description is somewhat humorous. Yeah, it's interesting that he wrote it a long time ago. Oh, and we read it today and we're like, oh, this is it exactly. Oh, yeah. This is exactly what growing old is like. I get weak and I don't sleep well, I don't see well, I don't hear well. I Lynn walks in the room while I'm watching Mark Madness, like, why is the TV so loud? I'm like, TV's loud? So all of the all of the descriptions, I'm heading that way, and we all are at the same rate.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm feeling a little bit of it myself, even. You know, it's it's funny. I thought the the keeper of the house, he talks about that, the guns or whatever. It's like not that I was ever like the pillar of strength and and and shape, but oh my goodness, you just notice as I'm pressing into my 40s, just like I can't do the same things. And coupled with that, I have uh you know, three sons that are all getting older. My oldest is in seventh grade, and he's getting bigger. You know, we go out and shoot hoops and all that stuff like that. And it was like you used to kind of more dominate the kids or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

There's a there's a point in time where you you can wrestle the kids, but there's a point coming where you're like, Yeah, don't don't wrestle me. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. It's and I'm even beginning to press into that now. I'm like, oh, that that kind of felt like I got moved by a grown man, and I'm I'm starting to feel my frailty a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So it is a funny description, but it's uh he the the author, uh the preacher in Ecclesiastes is making it really clear like this is coming like tomorrow. So learn to desire God and follow him now.

SPEAKER_00

Um and I just love how it's quickly, it's ancient, but it's so relevant. You know, it feels it it's like um this is something that was written so long ago, but it feels so ahead of its time. You know, it just is so great at uh wherever you're at, and any you know uh humans are all the same, you know. There's lots of things about our culture and our society change, but uh there's nothing new under the sun when it comes to yeah humanity and our frailty.

SPEAKER_01

He gets right down to the end of it and he talks about you know the the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is broken. So he starts giving us a metaphor of even uh our life's passing. Yeah, and he references interesting stuff in there that he, you know, the spirit returns to God who gave it. Yeah, that's like he said that before in this book a number of times. Like God gives you know how we don't even understand how God gives his spirit to the bones of a uh in the womb of a woman. And then here at the end, he's like, those that spirit's going back, it's returning, and uh and our body's returning to dust. And so another reminder of our frailty.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. Yeah. Um real quick, some of the implications of thinking through the how fleeting things are. We are young and that's only a short period of time, and then we grow old. Do you think that there's some implications that maybe we I mean, it's probably pretty intuitive and pretty basic, but like how that that should impact the way that we think through the time that we have?

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. That goes back to that, you know, get after it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, you just you just don't we delude ourselves in thinking, well, we have an infinite time. Yeah. And do that tomorrow. So get after it. Get after it. You don't, you're not even guaranteed tomorrow. So just just get after it. Uh develop in the areas that you need to develop, grow into those things, put off the things that are going to waste your life. You know, I I referenced in here in in up in chapter 11, you know, put away vexations from your heart, you know, the frustrations, irritations. You you stay in that lane, you disciple yourself to be frustrated and irritated. You're just gonna become a uh a grumpy person, miserable person. And life goes by quickly, and you don't want to be like, oh, I'm 67 and I've just spent the last three years upset about this. Right. Um, so um, yeah, no, get after it. Go after um the fact that life is short. Um disciple yourself in in ways that um are good, good for your development. I think some of that, if you want to press back into even relationships, um I think people can fixate on my I don't want to be like so and so, and they spend so much time there, they actually become like that person. So fix your eyes on on good examples of people who are down the road ahead of you who have who have grown and developed in areas that are just like that's desirable. Fix your eyes there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that's good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, simple.

SPEAKER_00

Moving into the second point of the message, you talked about being in awe of God and keep you know, being awe of God and keep his commandments was that point. And then began to talk about the commandments, right? And we oh yeah, tend to think of the Ten Commandments you talked about. Um, and I think you mentioned this earlier in the message, but you kind of revisited it. Um, when we think about the old covenant in particular, uh the people who lived in the Old Testament and the covenant that Moses gave, I think sometimes we tend to think about the fact that that covenant it was all about, it was established with rules, but really you mentioned that the covenant itself was was grace. Preceded by grace as well.

SPEAKER_01

I'm the Lord your God who brought you out of slavery, out of your land of agent.

SPEAKER_00

Not from not for anything that they did. That's uh reiterated throughout the Old Testament. Absolutely. That uh it's not anything you did. I was the one that saved you. Uh I chose you and I saved you and rescued you, and so that's a grace.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. God saying, I've taken the initiative and now you belong to me. Exactly. Here's the way to live.

SPEAKER_00

But then, right, and the the way to live, those are the rules that we get.

SPEAKER_01

Those are the relationships that have rules, and so that was included in the giving of the rules, there's the realization that you're not going to keep these perfectly. Right. So here's a whole system for you to atone for these sins while you wait for your ultimate deliverer. Yeah. So even in the context of the of the law that's given, there's a realization you're not going to keep these things. Right. Here's a way you can continue worshiping while you wait for the deliverer. The ultimate deliverer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I thought that was a really helpful way to frame that. Very clear, uh, and just great for me to even hear as I was just sitting through thinking through the way that you explained that. That was very helpful. Um and then part of it, you talked about the that the law is a guardian.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Right. Let us it's put in place to lead us to Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Right. So Christ has come today. Yes. Yep. Christ has come. And so one of the things you be in that means a couple things.

SPEAKER_01

Christ has come, that promised deliverer has has come as promised. Right. Uh, so the law has done its purpose for the nation of Israel, and even continually, I mean, we don't ignore the law today, we use it, but we need to use it appropriately. Right. We might talk about that a little bit. Okay. But the law has fulfilled its purpose. Right. It Christ has come. Christ has fulfilled the law and that he's kept the law. So it's kind of both. It's almost like a double fulfillment there.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. So yeah, to let's just slow down and unpack that a little bit. So so because the law was put in place until the deliverer came, until the guardian, or it's the guardian that that was there until the del. Because Jesus came, yeah, the law has come to its completion in the arrival of Christ. But then Christ also fulfills the law you're saying because He did it perfectly. He keeps it perfectly. Yep. Right. So He He is He fulfills the law.

SPEAKER_01

Plus, plus the law pointed to him. Right. I mean, he as I mentioned, Sunday. He's the Lamb, he's the priest, he's the temple, he's you know, he's the final sacrifice. Exactly. Um, he's our Sabbath, just so much, just he's he's the fulfillment of the law.

SPEAKER_00

It's um you know, one of the things it's it's cool when when we're talking about the resurrection this week, obviously, because it's it's resurrection Sunday coming up this Sunday, but when Jesus is walking down that road to Emmaus and he's teaching the people who are walking all the things that happened that are that were foretold or that that happened in the past, yeah, which were about him. Yeah, pointed to him. It all points to him, absolutely. So let's get real practical about that. So you you you talked about this a little bit. So if the law of Moses has come to its consummated end in Christ, um what about what about that law? Like, are there you know, should should we obey then the Ten Commandments? I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, how do you want to maybe? It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01

People want to press into that and because they're like, and they want to divide the law up, right? And about uh there's a ceremonial law and there's a religious law and there's a civil law and there's health laws and and then there's this moral law. And you know, suddenly we keep that. Well, in the in the sense that the New Testament, as you know, we're to obey the commands of Jesus, Jesus said, go and make disciples and teach them to observe all that I've commanded you. We discover that the moral law, if you will, is somewhat repeated in the New Testament, or it is repeated in the New Testament, because it's like this is the way life is meant to be lived. You go all the way back to the beginning, this is the way life is designed, how life is uh to be intended. And so, you know, there's people who will argue, well, the moral law comes over. It gets a little bit tricky when you go back to the Old Testament because the moral, civil, religious is all kind of mixed together. How do you parse out one from the other? Right. So, but we have uh commands that Jesus gave us, and they're reiterated in the New Testament epistles. So we're not ignorant of them. And uh and then they're also they're not overwhelming burdens when you realize, like, oh, this is the way it should be. Yeah. And the interesting thing is generally you read those and you're like, unless your heart is really broken, you're like, oh, of course. Yeah, yeah, we should love one another, we should be kind to one another. We should put off being dishonest to one another. Yeah, and so uh if we're where the law strikes us, or even where the commandments of Jesus strike us as like, oh, this is difficult, it it indicates to us as believers in Jesus, oh, here's an area where I'm still being sanctified. I'm I'm learning to live under the authority of Jesus and realizing that he's right. Right. And uh I'm I'm still being conformed in his image. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That becomes a big topic, you know, for people. Obviously, it's in so for some people, maybe it can become a a point of contention in various reasons. Absolutely. And I think uh what you're not saying is you're not saying, again, we even talked about the the the guardrails of this. There's lawlessness and there's legalism. Oh, yeah. You're not saying anything about the fact that the law doesn't matter, whether the law is valuable, it's good.

SPEAKER_01

New testament tells us that.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, right? Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But um take that in context. Right. The law was given to the nation of Israel to serve them well, they were to be a light to the nations. Right. So if they were to keep that law, which they didn't do well, right, but if they did, they would be a light to the nations. Then the the world would look at them and like they are a unique people and they live, they flourish. Right. That's that's it. You know, the world will look at that and say they're flourishing. They didn't keep the law, they disobeyed the law. That itself is a lesson. Right. If we're gonna save ourselves through lawkeeping, we're none of us are gonna make it. Right. So that's a great lesson from that. But they didn't keep the law, and then God proved faithful to disciplining them. And so that's a lesson in itself, too. So that the law, the whole Old Testament, we're not like putting that on a shelf.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

There's incredible value as we learn of God through his interaction with the nation of Israel as they wait for the Messiah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So But we're not we're not we're not legalists. I want to press into that. We're not legalists, we're not living our life like, hey, our teeth gritting obedience is somehow pleasing God, and we're earning God's favor. Right. No, God has given us Himself in Jesus Christ. We have as we believe God, believe his promises, receive Christ, we are in God's favor. We have been brought in as his as his very dearly loved children. So we're not keeping rules, even you know, gritting our teeth and bending our wills, like I'll do this because this bring cause pleasure. That's uh we're not legalists, we're also not living as though the relationship doesn't matter. Right. And everything just is willy-nilly, free as you go. No, relationships have parameters. And God, in his love for us, not only brought us into a relationship with himself, but he's also said, This is the way life is to be lived. Right. Go this way and uh and you'll flourish. You'll be persecuted and you'll flourish. Yeah. Because the world around you will be convicted by the fact that you're living in a way that is moving toward flourishing and they're not. Yeah. It annoys them, so they'll persecute you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. There's so many places we can go with this. It could be Bond.

SPEAKER_01

I I will be honest, I was nervous about that part of the sermon on Sunday because like this is this is a sermon series in itself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The the role of the law in the New Testament, the life of the New Testament believer, it could be a whole sermon series.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely. There's a lot here. We're we're way up on the surface. And even for me, it's like there's uh over the last few years been pressing into that. You know, there's all sorts of natural law theory and all this stuff that you can move into that's really deep waters, which we're not gonna feel the need to press into for this. But practically, I think it's just helpful to understand that for some people because I think um there may be some people who who get confused when they think about what the law that was given through Moses and how to think through that. And at least the way that I would approach it is that you know, I I don't obey anything in the old covenant because um because the law tells me to do that, right? Because that law has come to its end in Christ. Yeah. But insofar as the law reflects, you know, Jesus kind of gives that summation of of what it means to love God, love others. Yeah, that kind of encompasses essentially the the ethic of Christ, that you know, the the way I treat my spouse, the way I treat the people around me, the way that I honor God in my life. Yeah, like you said, that's very intuitive. I don't think it's difficult. And as we grow in that relationship, we we experience and learn and and grow in those areas too, which is very helpful.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's interesting too. To to come across to command and realize my heart doesn't want to do this. Yeah. Out of submission to my master, King Jesus, who is benevolent, I don't feel like doing it, but I'm I'm gonna do this. Yeah. And to know that even in that, how your heart will be transformed. That's remarkable too.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. There's also, I mean, again, we're we're sidestepping a little bit. This is good. But it can get into a whole category also where there are things where um maybe I'll talk about some gray areas or just uh as as Paul talked about disputable matters. You have uh some categories where for some people they may have some convictional positions on certain things that aren't shared by their neighbor.

SPEAKER_01

Um and maybe they're by their brother sitting next to them at church.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And maybe um and we're not talking about things that are explicit. Yep. You know, there's some things that yeah, we don't we don't need to debate that. That's that's areas where I have freedom where you may not. Exactly. And what we have in like the book of Romans, for example, are these um these approaches toward how to navigate those situations, yeah. And so uh maybe there's a conviction that you hold that uh you feel like is something that you need to keep or honor. Yep. Um maybe I I feel free to not have that same conviction. And so what Paul's point there is love should be at the center of that. Oh yeah. Right. So you shouldn't look down on me for the freedoms I have, you shouldn't despise me for those things. Uh yeah, sorry, you shouldn't despise me for that. I shouldn't look down on you. Yeah. Um, and as the person who has the freedom, I'm always willing to sacrifice that freedom for the sake of my relationship. Yeah. So but the point in that is is that there is a law of conscience, so to speak, that we should always honor and uh and love each other through that process. And I think that's a helpful framework for how to navigate those disputable things.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. I in the context in the context of the church, there will be those things by I I would argue by God's design. Exactly. Put those in there on purpose because how I respond to my brother is more important than my convictions on disputable matters. Exactly. And it's a really big deal. And in the areas where where a brother will have freedom, and I don't have that freedom, and it that's good.

SPEAKER_00

And in the context of Romans, I mean, we kind of understand the situational context of that book in particular. You have you have a group of people who are Jewish believers and who transitioned out of Rome for five years and they come back and their church is different, and there are certain things they they held to that way. And and how do you navigate through uh the life of uh being in Christ together, sharing that life and loving each other and trying to navigate through our differences? It's it's really helpful. Yeah, it is practical.

SPEAKER_01

The other interesting interesting thing about this conversation is this would have been a way weightier conversation in the first century of the church. Absolutely because you have just this Jewish audience that's come a millennial plus of keeping these laws because that's the way God designed for them at that time as they waited the Messiah, but they held on to those things. Oh, so you see in the New Testament matters that they struggled with by way of law keeping, uh circumcision, Sabbath keeping, all you know, and they they struggled with these things in a deeper way than we do.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're two thousand years removed from the the law coming to its consummate end. But you you have even the book of Acts, you kind of see this played out as they gather and they begin to wrestle and figure things out. And you know, Peter has his uh pigs in a blanket dream, and then you know, then all these things happen, and then the Jerusalem Council, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, and I'm I'm as a as a faithful Jew who's come to faith in Christ, I'm gathering no longer at the you know, the synagogue. Exactly. And there's gentile believers here, and they just don't they have not acted and lived like I have for a long time. So a lot of convictional things.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm briefly even pressing into, you know, that they they started gathering on the Lord's Day, you know, the first day. And so you have these unique significant things, which anyways.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we we've gone further than that. Oh my goodness, there's so much to talk about. Yeah, I was, you know, because I I I I jumped into that because Ecclesiastes ends with fear going to keep his commandments.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I wanted to be as close to clear as I could be on what does it mean for us to keep commandments? Because we're not legalists, right? We're not lawless, relationships have rules. Jesus has said, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. What's our attitude toward that? What's our response to that? So I I wanted to not uh err in either lane.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So am I allowed to boil a young goat and its mother's milk?

SPEAKER_01

Or is it can I wear mixed uh threaded clothes? Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's um well ca uh without going too we've obviously gone and hit a number of things. Things real real real quickly. We could talk a lot. But but going into the legalism and lawless, those two guardrests, can we just go back to that just for a moment? Just because I think that's helpful. So yeah. So we have two kind of ends of the coin there. We have the kind of the legalistic hey, I it's by the rules that I merit favor before God.

SPEAKER_01

My acceptance merit favor, all that.

SPEAKER_00

And then you have the other extreme, the other side of the coin where it's like, hey, yeah, I do as I please. Yeah, but it's just kind of Paul says, hey, you know, um I can continue in sin that grace may abound by no means. Yeah. So we have these two guardrails. So that's a helpful thing to think through in terms of the way that we navigate. Yep. So so for you, obedience.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, what value is there in a practical sense of of living a life of obedience?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I think Ecclesiastes would tell us, and and and even other scripture, is like this is the way in which we uh will flourish as a human. Yeah. This is the way life is meant to be lived. And when you realize that you're like, oh, the that's that's takes the commands into grace. We're like, oh, this is command isn't to limit my freedoms, it's not to limit my life, it's not to make it difficult. This command is grace to me. And this if in in by doing this, I will flourish and those around me will be blessed. Um unbelievers may not see it that way because they will um be perturbed by that type of living. But yeah, no, it's it's it's grace to me. Commands are grace.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we we presume maybe it's restrictive, it's not. And I think you talked about that last last week a little bit too. Yeah. The obedience is not you know just for the benefit, it's not just for the the the the Lord's sake, it's for our own sake. Oh God has told us what is true, what is right, what is what He is right, He is true. Yeah, exactly. What leads to flourishing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um that's great. Yeah, good. Um, well, and you mentioned something really powerful. You said the commands of Jesus are not burdensome, they're more grace, yeah. Um, which I think was a good way to even frame that up, you know, near near the end. So that that was helpful. Um moving in a little further, you also mentioned that if we do our own thing, we become slaves. Yeah. So um you briefly touched on some of that. You kind of hit some of the things that we're we're slavery to ourselves. I think you mentioned we become slaves.

SPEAKER_01

Slaves to opinions of others, people's expectations have a million masters. If we yeah, there's that there's a little bit of a paradox, and maybe we'll press into both sides of this. You know, I can I can do my own thing, live without authority, and it leads to slavery. And that just seems like okay, no authority, slavery. That doesn't make sense. But um and then the flip side of that is I can live under the authority of Jesus and be free.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And uh so that just seems like a complete paradox, you know, no authority, slavery, under authority, freedom. Um, but again, going back, the living under the authority of Jesus and keeping his commands is where flourishing is found, it's where life is found. It's it's a wide open vista. I mean, it's huge. You're gonna have people in that uh with you that have different, you know, convictions. But yeah, that it's just an interesting paradox to think that through the people who are doing their own thing and living or attempting to live without any authority are enslaving themselves. And you see it more over time. You look at it and you're like, oh, they just get to do whatever they want. What they're wanting to do isn't leading to their flourishing, and eventually it just it keeps going down, yeah. Um, and making life hard, hard for them, hard relationally. They're constantly trying to navigate relationships.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Um and you um you touched on it earlier, but I think you could say the same thing, but like so both both extremes, right? When you when we when there's no rules, no, when there's no authority, we become slaves. But then when we're so legalistic, that's also enslaving, right? And I think that we we saw that with uh the extra laws and rules that the Pharisees added that were just so burdensome on the people. And when Jesus came, he said, Hey, you know, come to me, you know, and learn from me. My my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting when you think through legalism and lawlessness, you know, the the the legalist is um the the tendency to go that way is because if you are keeping rules and then adding rules of your own, you it's it's driven by pride. Yeah. And and superior of position. You know, I I'm doing better keeping it than you are. Right. And so that's driven by um uh self ingrandizing, look at me. Yeah, I'm keeping the law, I'm a really I'm a really good guy, and I'm better than everyone else. The lawlessness is just the other end of that of like, look at me, I can do whatever I please. I'm a god by myself. And so I think people those those are are broken lanes, yeah. And I think it's wise to bring them out.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, uh that's helpful. Um well, maybe I don't know how long we've been talking, but we've had a lot of good conversations.

SPEAKER_01

Well, this is the end of the series, last of the books.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. So you I'll just maybe circle around to this. You I began uh in that first chapter. When he I kind of noticed when when the preacher begins, I'll just I'll just go there real quick, right? He begins to talk about Hebel, right? The vanity of vanities, heavily of heavels, you know, all is heavel. Breath, breath, yeah, exactly. Yep, and he begins to unpack a little bit about the the truth of what life is. And I began the series by saying that wisdom begins with seeing life for what it is.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Um, just because that's where the preacher pressed into in the beginning, you know, and he he starts there. Um, you kind of bookended it and did a good job with a little bit of inclusio for the whole series. You said the wisdom ends with fearing God and keeping his commands.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, do you see these ideas connecting a little bit, or I mean the thread there?

SPEAKER_01

I I I think at the beginning of the book, and as we walked our way through the journey of this book, um, the preacher uh, and and this book has one author, one shepherd. Yeah, um, but the preacher has done a good job of like waking us up to be like, we frequently pretend that life isn't this way.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And and so it's jarring. You mentioned, I think you mentioned that at the beginning of this podcast. This book begins to jar us with saying things that we pretend aren't so, but know they are so.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so, you know, wisdom begins with seeing life for what it is, not what we think it to be, not what we're trying to make it to be. You know, life is what life is, and um uh it's it it's all of those things. It's it's gift and it's um it's painful, it's pleasurable, it's a mixed bag of uncertainty and mystery, and because it's under the sun, and I think he's saying, Don't delude yourself by pretending it's not this way. Right. It's like wake, you know, he really jars us to to wake up and to see life as it is. And then when he lands that with, you know, the chief end, you know, I the fear God and keep his commandments, fear God and do as you please, you know, honor God, desire God, and and uh that's it's great. That's great. That's kind of the book ends of this book. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I have thoroughly enjoyed Ecclesiastes. My my part in it was enjoyable, but also my part in uh listening and receiving from that, not not prepping and preaching was also great.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you um you did uh you set up the latter half really well. It was easy to come. I came in middle of the middle of the series and uh and I felt I was uh had a great foundation to to go forward with. And Nate did a great job when he filled in. He you both he and you had challenging chapters in the two book and but it was a good, great study.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was great. Uh I I am one of my favorites that I've done or I've been part of in a long time, which is great. So um just a little roadmap for people. So obviously we have Good Friday this week, and so when people are listening to this podcast, if they listen before Friday, we've got three services on Friday. Yeah. And so um those are 3:35 and 6:30. Well done. 335 and 630.

SPEAKER_01

Kids men is gonna take place for birth to five years old.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Come, it'll be great to remember the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, and so we're gonna rip be reflecting a little bit on Psalm 22 and on the crucifixion, then Resurrection Sunday at the Dow Event Center. So that is big celebration. Yep, that will be registration uh for that. Again, a reminder to do that, but that's gonna be at the Dow at 9 and 11.

SPEAKER_01

And then we have a there are folks getting baptized Sunday, which is a fun celebration observe to observe.

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And so we may or may not have a podcast next week. It just depends on how I'm not sure how that works on the week after Rez Sunday. We'll see. Right. Um, but we are then pressing into some some fun new territory post-Easter, uh post-Resurrection Sunday. So just a little teaser out to the people who have listened thus far in the podcast, but we'll be moving into some some some Jesus material from the New Testament, which is great. Good, good. So a little bit of the Sermon on the Mount, some uh stuff from there, and then some things about parables. And so looking forward towards this spring and everything going on. Very good. Mark, this has been a great conversation. Thank you. Very helpful, informative, fun. It's been great. It's been great. So appreciate you joining me again for this, and everybody for tuning in. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's After the MN. We hope that we'll see you next time.