After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 25

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 25

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Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome back, everybody, to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frankenmuth Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning and we unpack it later in the week. And uh once again I'm joined by Pastor Mark Hazen. Yes. Mark, how you doing? I'm doing good. Really good. Glad to be back in the conversation. It is good to be back. We took a little break last week, a little hiatus from the podcast. As many of you know, it was Holy Week, uh Resurrection Sunday, and Good Friday and all the things. And so we we took a little little break, but we're back at it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, probably a good pause too. We did a what 12 or 13 week conversation on the book of Ecclesiastes. Good series, finished that series.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, great series.

SPEAKER_02

And then Resurrection Sunday happened.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Great day. Um interesting, I was thinking about that. You preached Resurrection Sunday, which we've not commented on this podcast at all. Um I'm curious how many other churches across our land uh had Revelation 1 as the text for uh Resurrection Sunday. Not many, is my guess. It was excellent. Well, thank you. Jesus holds the keys. He holds the keys. Right? Through his powerful death and resurrection, he now holds the keys to different things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think one of the th the not that we're planning to talk about that, but it's one of those things you probably are familiar with this, but as a preacher, you you have those moments in the calendar where you focus on the same subject matter. So Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Every year we're gonna talk about the resurrection of Jesus specifically.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, hopefully this is not a spoiler for people, but next Easter, next resurrection Sunday, we're gonna talk about the resurrection of Jesus. Yes. And then we'll do it the year after, and the year after and the year after. Uh Christmas, you know, we'll talk about the birth of Jesus, the incarnation. I mean, uh so it's just as you go through um years of doing this, you you know, obviously we have I've probably preached from all four of the gospel accounts, preached from 1 Corinthians 15, passages. Yep. I think I did a uh uh 1 Peter uh message once on anyways. So um yeah, just nice to kind of give it something different, something fresh.

SPEAKER_02

Revelation one was good, yeah. Uh it was yeah, it was it was really good. But anyways, we did 12 weeks of a podcast on Ecclesiastes, took a break just uh for post-resurrection Sunday, busy week, and we're back at it. You kicked off a brand new series this week. I did Secret Service. Yep, short one, yeah, short series, focusing in on the Christian activities of um giving, praying, and fasting. Yep, but not giving, praying, and fasting to be seen, but uh doing that in secret. Right. And uh so that's where we got started, kicked it off this last week. I'm curious, as you think about, you know, we just mentioned Christmas and Easters are certain times in the year that you preach on you know where you're going with the preaching. Right. Matter of fact, I do appreciate before we move off that you commented even on Resurrection Sunday that every Sunday is somewhat of a resurrection Sunday and that we celebrate the resurrection of Jesus. That was good. Anyways, uh pivoting back in, you we're in a new series, you kicked it off, and uh, I'm curious as you you work with the elders, sure. You look at the calendar, you plan out, you know, a year of preaching, um, you put that together. I'm curious how and why you landed here on this, you know, three-part series. A little feedback into that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, there's a probably a number of reasons.

SPEAKER_02

A little pastoral conversation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There's probably a number of reasons, and um happy to kind of talk through some of that. So I try to plan things well in advance. There are certain maybe it's even just my own idiosyncrasies or things like that, but I tend to like to um button up things in the in a calendar way that kind of makes sense. So like I if we have a series that we're running before Resurrection Sunday, I typically like to to land the plane on a series before then. Yeah, just so that way, because it's you when you when you take that break and then maybe you focus on something else, like uh the resurrection. So it just enables us to I don't know, not feel like we're yeah, we're breaking through that. So sometimes that uh is is part of it. Last year um preaching through First Corinthians, it was cool because we ended with 1 Corinthians 15, right? So that was uh uh not ended, we had obviously a week after. So that was a little different, but it was actually part of the Corinthian series, which was fun. So um you have a shorter window of time after Resurrection Sunday before summer. So that's one thing to consider. So uh we chose a short series here and we have another short series, then that leads us into the summer. You also typically, at least just what we've tried to approach, is that we want a series that maybe is palatable for people who are exploring.

SPEAKER_02

Coming back after Resurrection Sunday.

SPEAKER_01

Resurrection Sunday tends to be one of those Sundays where people might try church, and so they might try again in a couple weeks after. And so there's an element to the series where when you begin to talk about Christian activity, I think I talked about some of the spiritual disciplines, things like that. There are things that that people maybe you're curious about, you know, and so prayer would probably be the one of the biggest ones. We're gonna talk about that that this coming week. Um but prayer tends to be one of those topics that you know, people who are exploring faith, they really are interested in things like that. It's very new for them, might be not so new for somebody who's been a Christian for a long time, but some of those activities connected to the Christian life, I think, are helpful for people. Um, so there's that. I think it's accessible for people like that. Um the other thing that we're gonna press into it more. I don't want to maybe steal too much thunder for later sermons. We're in a culture today where we have given people a window into elements of our life that previously we didn't have the same opportunities to do. So what I mean by that is things like social media. Oh I now probably know if I'm on social media a lot, you know, at times what you have for breakfast because you might post a picture or whatever. Yeah. Um we give people a window into our life and much of our lives It's a highly selective window. It is a highly we curate the best version of ourself to those around us. Yeah, and there's a tendency to to have a posture where we want we want to have followers, we want to have attention drawn to ourselves. Yeah. Again, I'll press into that a little bit later. Later, I don't want to take too much of my thunder, uh, especially probably for the last week, just because it it I'll have the real estate in the text to be able to press into that more. Um but I think it's healthy for our people to just consider the fact that we don't there are certain things that we don't need to broadcast. I'll just say that. And I think it's really it's a it's a it's a it's Jesus said this 2,000 years ago, but it is as fresh and relevant for us to hear as ever. So I just think it's a good time to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, good. Uh it's interesting because you've got this three-week series coming right out of Matthew 6, uh, giving, praying, fasting, doing it secretly, if you will, doing it silently, doing it not to be seen. Um I I I appreciate the comment on the fact that you know we have uh guests that will come that are uh maybe were invited to resurrection Sunday. They hear about the resurrection of Jesus, the power of Jesus holding the keys of life and death this past Sunday, or the Sunday before. And uh and then following up with this really basic, you know, giving, praying, fasting. Yeah, uh, that's interesting because it gives them, they know this is true about Christians, but they they may know it to be true, but don't know much about it. And so let's press into that. There could be some interesting pushback on the immediate after Resurrection Sunday. You talk about giving. Sure. But you commented even in this Sunday sermon that giving is really gospel connected, really Christ, you know, connected. And um because God has been so generous, excuse me, because God has been so generous to us, it makes us a generous people, and I think that was valuable to communicate that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think, and you know you would, I'm sure, echo this. Uh anytime we preach, you know, Christ is going to be have a central focus in some capacity, right? I mean, Spurgeon talks about that around, you know, you want to find your way to Christ. Yeah, this is an easy one. It's easy, and I think that's the other piece about some of these this series. It's the Sermon on the Mount, which is obviously um incredible uh section of scripture and Jesus teaching, and he's teaching valuable things for um for kingdom citizens, for for believers, for disciples. But yeah, the that in particular, when you think about generosity, it is so easy to communicate the gospel because the gospel it oftentimes is even presented to us in in language that's that's uh clearly economical. It's it's clearly related to you know, finance, things like that. So think about redemption. Yeah, think words like that, purchase. We've been purchased by the blood of Jesus. That's just explicitly biblical.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So um even justification, which I talked about a little bit, you know, it's like it's like we have a we have an account, you know, with a negative balance. And oh yeah, and you know, you think through it in that sense, that kind of uh terminology that the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us, and he's taken our debt.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, it's just it's all so clear. Yeah, it's also interesting when you consider the various people or peoples that encountered Jesus in the gospels and and then realized who he was, the promised Messiah, the promised deliverer, the one they were waiting for, sinners encountering him and finding you know forgiveness in life, and a variety of responses to him, but even so many of those were immediately generous. And you could, of course, you can think of Zacchaeus as a you know, here's a man who built his life on acquiring for himself wealth, right, and uh encounters Christ and is immediately giving wealth away. You think about the woman pouring out uh a year's wages on Jesus' feet, and so it's kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_01

It is interesting, yeah. And I I also just think um, while there might be some some thought or pushback about that, I think um it's it's clearly biblical, it's clearly an important topic for Jesus. It's not the only time he talks about that, talks about quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Our God is a generous God, as you mentioned Sunday, and his benevolence is so rich.

SPEAKER_01

Well, well, and it makes us a w a generous people. And I would suggest, and that's part of this, you know, what I I I pressed into a little bit thinking through that. Um encouraging people to be generous is not primarily just for other people's benefit around them. Oh it's for our own benefit. When we can lit, and that's very Ecclesiastes, you know, we went through that a lot. When we begin to put more weight on the things that are gifts than they ought to be, when we see them as ultimate, yeah, and we don't see the giver as ultimate. And the gifts is just, you know, blessings that we have in this in this moment that we don't get to take with us. You know, it's just very Ecclesiastes. There is a there is a freedom that can be experienced for somebody who who can live open-handed. It's for their benefit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

They don't, they don't you know, yeah. The way life was meant to be. The things that we have are meant to be enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, they're they're meant to be enjoyable. We enjoy them, we we enjoy them for what they are, we don't make them more, and and we become slaves to money. You know, money can become a snare for us, and I think it's just and living generously is for our benefit. Yeah, you know, as well.

SPEAKER_02

So well, this Sunday you pressed into Matthew 6 and you tackled this first one on generosity and on giving. And but I'm gonna go back a little bit uh just before that, preceding that, um, even you brought it up in the message. I want to see if we can lean into it a little further. Uh, the fact that Matthew chapter five talks about letting your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your father in heaven. So that's in the preceding chapter. Yeah. And then in Matthew 6, it says, you know, don't give or pray or fast to be seen. Yeah. And so can you lean into that a little more? You you did on Sunday morning. I thought it was great. I think it's valuable because it's like, hey, let your light shine, let your good works be noticed, and then don't don't be noticed.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think uh one of the things I tried to lean into with that in particular, you know, one, obviously, you you you look at the section that Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5, it's that you're you're the lights of the world. The world is a city on a hill can't be hidden. He goes through the whole section about uh the church being called to be distinct from the world, um, and you know, the salt and light, kind of this idea of of not only shining forth the gospel, but but enhancing, improving, blessing the world. Oh, yeah. So there's a part of that where our testimony to the world around us um should be evident as believers. I think he's really leaning into that. He's now moving into a section where, you know, I and I'm not trying to draw a hard line distinction between this, but but you know, in the synagogues, these are a little bit like the community of faith and some of that. But what I think Jesus is really pressing into, I I think, and I try to capture this in the message, is is the motivation of the heart is really, I think, the crucial way to distinguish between those two things. Because if if our motivation is to do things for the approval of other people, it's always gonna result in a distortion of what God's in intends for you to do with those activities.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

If that makes sense. Yeah. Um well said, I think. What why why we give matters, you know. Um why we do any of the things we do matters to God. And uh ultimately, you know, I I think that that's the biggest biggest distinguisher in between how how to how to think through that in a practical sense. And so um, because I think, yeah, all the time we do things in front of people.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But if our desire is to honor God, is to serve God, to love him, to love other people, if our intentions are right and it's not about likes or applause or all those. Or me, or me. Yeah. Then I think that that's the easiest way to navigate through it, if it makes sense.

SPEAKER_02

The value of the sermon series for people who are in Christ and who are wanting to live a life that glorifies God and serves others well, the value of hearing this again is it's just a good reminder that we're still being sanctified. This is still this is still something that we uh need to be reminded of and still something that we strain against.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I think I when I talk through, you know, you can do all the right things, you know, for all the wrong reasons. I think that's part of it, is that these these the it it is not it's not just the activities that God cares about, it's the heart behind the activities. Yeah. Right. And so I think that that's you know the approach I wanted to take with drawing, you know, clarity between those two things, Matthew 5, Matthew 6.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Another interesting uh, as I was sitting through the message and and taking it in, I thought about the fact that this is well illustrated further in the book of Acts. So after the Gospels, you get into the book of Acts and the the um continuing work of Jesus through his spirit and the lives of his people. And it made me think of uh the illustrations of Barnabas and then Ananias and Sapphira. They're back to back in the sc in the book of Acts. Acts 4 ends with the example of Barnabas, Acts 5 begins with the example of Ananias and Sapphira, both contributors, both givers. Yeah, but I uh that you know maybe we want to talk about a little bit of that history.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02

Uh because I think it really illustrates the message that what you were getting at.

SPEAKER_01

That's great.

SPEAKER_02

Um they're both giver, both giving.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I think, well, I I think I talked to you because you had you had uh mentioned those two. I think it was yesterday or whatever. You mentioned those two individuals. I was and I I jokingly told Mark, I said, Hey, you gotta start asking the questions before I write the sermon, so that way I can leave it in. Because I think that's uh really great practical uh example of of thinking through that. So yeah, so Acts 4, we can go there.

SPEAKER_02

Uh well yeah, Acts 4, you have a man by the name of Joseph. Yep, great name. Who's yeah, this is true. It's a great name. Why why'd they ever rename this guy?

SPEAKER_00

It's funny. Although his new name is great to you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, his name is Joseph, but they rename him uh Barnabas, which means son of encouragement. Yep. And literally, so he's giving, he he had a piece of property, right, which is also interesting because he's a Levite, right? We won't go down that road, but he has a piece of property, he's a Levite, sells that piece of property, and gives the proceeds of the money, of the sale of the land, to the apostles, which is largely going to meet benevolent needs within the church community at that time. So he does it, it's obviously known. So he's given public. Yes, he he's given. It's not secret per se, in that people know it, right? But his his motivation was not for praise or applause. And so he gives a gift, it's so encouraging to others. Others begin to give. I think that's why they call him son of encouragement, because his generosity has moved others to give. Immediately following him in the text, you have Ananias and Sapphira, right, have a piece of property, it's also public in their gift of it. And they sell it and they give the proceeds, but they give a portion of the proceeds, yeah. But they intend to have the same impact on the community, like, hey, look at us. Correct. We we're just like Barnabas, but they're keeping back a portion of it. Sure. Which the text clearly tells us, and the apostles clearly say to them, you could do that, you have the freedom to do that.

SPEAKER_01

You could have given it only a portion of it, and that'd have been fine.

SPEAKER_02

And you could have kept it. You didn't you didn't even need to do this, right? But you've you've done it. But the fact that you've lied about it, yeah, lied to the Holy Spirit about it, yeah, and did it for the purpose of, hey, look at us.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_02

It's fascinating. It is fascinating.

SPEAKER_01

It I and then they drop dead. Yeah. And then the fear strikes the whole, you know, assembly.

SPEAKER_02

Interestingly, God isn't doing that now. Right? Because that's still happening. Right. Oh, for sure. Because that's the point of the message. Like, exactly. Don't don't give to be seen. But clearly that was a message for the church then, and they they learned something with God. God did immediate judgment on that and taught the the church a lesson, which is which is fascinating. It is. But yeah, I think that just is a great incredible illustration.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and it's um I think it's a healthy way for us to understand because on some level you there's a lot of similarities between Barnabas and Ananias and Savira in terms of the activity.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But again, I think you're right. I think that motivation, the heart behind it, and uh obviously then the greed, or you well, I think it's I wouldn't even say it's so much greed. Maybe it's partially greed, but more it's more so just the pride of Ananias and Savira to glorify us, you know, and um and lie about it, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And it and it shows it shows how um ingrained that is into our old nature that as husband and wife, they literally agree about it. Yeah, so they they they had a conversation on this.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Well, because that's not part of the text, right? It's like he dies first and then she comes, and then Peter, Peter discerns, is it Peter that discerns kind of oh she she knew as well. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I mean it wasn't difficult for them to have the conversation to be like, look, this is what we're gonna do. Right. And uh very interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think the other thing too, and you meet you made the the point, there's like there's total freedom in the community, which is also just really interesting, too. And it's not it's not because earlier not everyone did that in the church. Earlier in the text it talks about everybody had all things in common. And I maybe this is reductionistic, but I've heard people kind of talk about, you know, like communism as taking from other people and redistributing that wealth. Yeah. This communism or whatever it is, is this free sharing of what what you have for those in need. And uh the the early Christian community obviously had this this heart behind taking care of one another and um and being generous toward one another and yeah, helping support those who were in need. And so Barnabas just, you know, purely out of his motivation to love his brothers and sisters in Christ and love God, just was free to free to do what he wanted. And uh great example for the church. And then others just, yeah, they took advantage of the whole situation. And it was interesting.

SPEAKER_02

It's also interesting the trajectory. I'm I don't know why I'm thinking of this now, but Barnabas has land, sells it, gives the proceeds away, benefits the church. It's part of the the church, as you just described, was very generous and was giving. Have a couple that like, oh, we're gonna do that same thing, but do it with the wrong motivation, wrong results. But it's also interesting to think about Barnabas is now totally freed. He you know, he becomes the traveling companion to Paul. He's not bound by anything, he's just really interested. He's not mowing his lawn anymore. He's not mowing his lawn, yeah, he's not trimming the edges.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and he's he's your guy, too. I seem to remember in a previous message that isn't when Ginger mentioned he he might be, was it the one uh Phineas is one of your guys, but did you I think you mentioned Barnabas too as one of your guys, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's that's an incredible example. Oh, yeah, he also navigated the conflict and discipled John Mark well for a long period of time. Yeah, great character. Yeah, anyways, I think it was just a good illustration of of the sermon. So I'm glad we're able to circle back to the podcast and bring that up.

SPEAKER_01

And that is the beauty of this podcast, is those things that are missed on Sunday morning. If you want to enhance the experience, get everything in on Sunday morning. Well, we were just talking on the way up, you know. So this next week I'm preaching on prayer. And I, you know, I have 35 minutes to talk about the topic of prayer. This will not be exhaustive.

SPEAKER_02

This will be the definitive message on prayer for all time. Yeah, make sure you tell people that before I preach it. That'll be great. Uh well, back into the tech. In in the sermon, you talked about, you know, again, giving. Um, you said something. Let me comment on this. You said something that I think was really um significant. Uh, you said that giving in order to be seen isn't really giving. So if you give in order to be seen, it's not really giving, it's a transaction. Yeah. When you're giving to be seen, to be, you know, applauded and praised, you're actually purchasing something. Yeah. You're purchasing the the praise of others. I thought that was just a really uh good comment. I hadn't never thought of it that way, but I think I think you're accurate and you're onto something. So how how do we go about shifting our desires from the immediate praise of other people, which is a real desire? Yep. We can't deny that. No, so we all struggle with it. We well, we appreciate being praised by other people. You mentioned you used uh early illustration in your message about even your parents, you do things to be praised, right. So how do we go from shifting our desires from the immediate pleasures of people praise to the eternal plause of heaven, the eternal reward of heaven, which comes up later in the text, right? You you referenced that in the sermon too, laying up treasures in heaven. Yeah. Um so how how how do we go about doing that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's not easy. I think Ecclesiastes is a really great opportunity for us to press into some of those those things as well about holding the things that we have here a little more loosely. But I think I think a one of the biggest things is I think and this is probably true of every passage I'll ever preach, but our affections for God just need to be stirred far more.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, that's a good way of saying that.

SPEAKER_01

Far more. I I I think that's one of the biggest things I'd start by saying is that we we tend to overvalue the temporal, the stuff that's immediate, that's right in front of us. Sure. And there and that's a natural tension that I mean I'm I don't want to um that that's why the Bible talks about it so much. Because what what we are promised is something that is right now is unseen. It's eternal, it's kept in heaven for us. You know, there's this sense in which it's harder for us to have to get excited and have affections for something that's not right in front of our eyes right now.

SPEAKER_03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um but I think the biggest thing for us is you know when we pre when we preach the gospel to ourselves and we re repeatedly meditate on who God is and what he's done for us and and um his character and nature, and our affections are regularly stirred for the Lord, I think it enables us to um more easily, if I can use that term, through his power, through his enablement, yeah, begin to let go of of the things of this world, this world that we tend to cling to. Again, going back to Ecclesiastes and just hold on to his promises and and live more for him, for his glory, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, in a weird illustrative way, you know, when you get invited over to a friend's house and they're gonna they're cooking steaks on the grill, yeah, and you're gonna have steaks and sweet potatoes and you know, green, a great meal. When you arrive, they're not handing you a uh, you know, Snicker candy bar.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And not not because they're withholding from you, but that you know there's a there's something better coming in an hour and a half, we're gonna have steak. Exactly. And so we're not gonna fill up on on Snickers. Oh, exactly. But it's interesting to take have our affections for God continually that flame fan where our affections for God are continually growing, and also taking the long the long-term view of the rewards that God is storing up for us in heaven, and the rewards that we can lay up for ourselves in heaven are just of great value.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And I and I think too, again, we want to hold these things in balance. There is a place for maybe praise is too heavy of a word, for um encouraging people. Barnabas' name is son of encouragement. Encouragement is a virtuous thing, it's a great thing to take time to encourage those around you. Um and when, and I think it's okay to receive encouragement. Oh, you know, yeah, like that's a wonderful thing. Like you, we compliments or things like that. Again, I'll take it back to the motivations at the heart. When we begin to internalize that and we begin to take those compliments, and then we we we bend them so far inward that we now, you know, yeah, it's our it's because of us and all our goodness, and I talked about that a little bit, all our greatness that you know, that's where we we can begin to have problems.

SPEAKER_02

But that that that brings up a good conversation. You know, how do we go into um in light of this, not doing in this specific, not giving to be praised by people, but how do we go about now thinking through praising people for the good that they do? Sure. So how do how do we because we ought to be as we grow in humility and we're not only God-oriented but others-oriented, we should be observing the good that other people are doing and praising them for that because they do people do praiseworthy things. Yes. So we need to think through, you know, how in light of this, you know, how do we go about genuinely praising people for the good that they're doing? Yeah. And then on the flip side of that is how do we go about receiving that kind of praise? Even if we begin to um cultivate our heart in a good way of like we're living for the glory of God or we're doing our things for Him and unto Him. But how do we how do we give praise to others who are doing good things? And how do we receive that praise? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great, great thought. I think um it's it's natural, first of all. I mean, when we see encouraging, celebrating other people, some of the things they do, it I think that's a good thing. That's a godly thing. Nothing wrong with that. And I also think part of what's cool about it is that we, you know, we were created in the image of God. Uh God is good, infinitely good. His character, his nature, you know, the things he does um are perfect and glorious. And being creatures who reflect uh and represent God on earth, the things that there are things that we should engage in that are just good things that we that can be enjoyed and celebrated. Yeah. But again, it's it's understanding that that difference between create creator and creature um are uh our praise were were worthy things are are derivative of our relationship together. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like uh I try to even talk about that a little bit. That the light that I shine in Matthew 5 is not self-produced. I'm not I'm not creating my own light. I'm simply reflecting the light that I have from the from God, from Christ. And so part of it is just it's a sign, it's assigning it its proper place. I don't know if that makes sense. It's when we begin to when we give praise and we begin to idolize the person and and begin to make make a person this you know, the celebrity culture, all those things where we tend to make them more than they are.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um you know, we're we're anything good that we have is just from our creator God. And as creatures who reflect his image, it's it's you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I wish I could remember where I heard this, but um one way in which because we we encounter people who are doing good things, and it it generates within us like that's a praiseworthy thing. Right. And and we encourage them by praising them. It often too, when we see someone doing something good, they may be doing a good that they're just good at, that God has made them good at. Right. And so to praise them is even an act of humility on our part, like I just don't do that well, and they do that great, and so we praise them. Um but yeah, that's just uh is really interesting. So we you know, we should be praising the good that others are doing. Yeah, absolutely. It encourages them, it encourages us. Um and it also in praising the good that we see in others is instructive to us. Like sure. There's also good that I could be doing that is the same.

SPEAKER_01

So it's exactly yeah, and I think a big part of it is it's I'm even talking about conceptually, like what foundationally just our understanding of humanity and God and his redemptive work in the world and his creation, you know. Cause when I when I see you do something great and I'm like, hey, awesome, awesome job on that, Mark, or whatever. I'm not going okay, like I'm not taking time to think through, okay, well, Mark is a creature and God is the it's just it's natural. Yes. But but I think part of it flows from I think theology does shape that and form the way that we engage with others around us. And so for me, it's the foundation behind all that stuff. And and you mentioned part of the question too, receiving on that other end. Oh, yes, yep.

SPEAKER_02

Receiving.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. That's true.

SPEAKER_02

So you so you preach a you preach a sermon, yeah. You preach a sermon Sunday morning, a sermon that you've labored on. It's on giving. And uh and you go out in the foyer and sort of like, hey, that's a great sermon.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right? There's an immediate reward for the sermon.

SPEAKER_01

You know the Spurgeon quote on that one, don't you? Have you heard that? Remind me. Well, I'm gonna I'm this is not verbatim. This is my paraphrase of Spurgeon's quote, but he apparently preached a sermon once and uh went out in the foyer area after or whatever, and an old woman came up to him and said, Pastor, that is the best sermon I've ever heard anyone preach in my entire life. And Spurgeon said, Well, well, thank you. Satan said the same thing to me a few minutes ago or something. So to that effect.

SPEAKER_00

Like it's like almost like he just uh kind of like uh put her in her place a little bit about like, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Um but all of us, because you you said that it's natural to praise people for the good that they do and for the good that we're beneficiaries of. So it's natural to praise people. So if someone comes to you and like that that message really impacted me, that message is really good. And I I needed to hear that, either as convictional or as helpful or instructive, but they you get praise for that. Yeah. And we praise people for the good they do. So wait, we and we don't want to limit that or restrict that. That's a valuable thing. But how do you re begin to receive that without cultivating the heart that's already there of like who do I like that?

SPEAKER_01

That's a that's a practical question. Um, so for me, it's interesting because that will happen periodically. People will make comments. I think one of the first things I do is I I thank them. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because I didn't think the sermon is a lot of work. And you get to look into it.

SPEAKER_01

And um, I think also people if they're if they go out of their way to make comments like that. Um, again, Spurgeon is kind of funny. I I'm I don't wanna I don't want to make someone feel like they shouldn't have done that. You know, you want to thanks. Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you. If they're pressing, a lot of times it just sometimes it's natural and sometimes it's a reminder. If they're like, no, I really want to talk about how much that whatever it was, um, for me it's it's often like I want to then say, well, hey, awesome. Praise God. You know, it's there is that sense in which on a practical level just even bringing God into the conversation, into the mix of that conversation. Into the mix of the conversation, but it's that's even for my own benefit. You know, it's not like I'm saying that to correct the person so much, like, hey, yeah, you need it's like there is a sense in which what I believe about preaching, so I do believe that it takes hard work. I believe um God gives gifts. Yep. Um, so there are there are uh there are all those factors. I enjoy it. Um and uh both the preparation and the delivery of it. Absolutely delivery of it. There it's yeah, but it's a gift to you to be able to do it. Correct. And ultimately, the even what I believe about like the word, you know, you're I'm a herald. Uh preaching is the Greek word is caruso. It's uh I'm I'm the town crier who says, Hear ye, hear ye. There's a message from the king. Yeah, he is delivering the message, but he is not the source of its content, if if that makes sense. Yeah. I might package certain things, you know. Pastor Joe packages things so that way it's it's received well, but the source of my content, the message is is the text. Yeah, I I have the privilege of being the herald who gets to to cry out what God's word says.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So a big part of that is just that's again some of my just theology about what preaching is. I think preaching is powerful, it's valuable, but it's powerful in so in so far as it's it's it's communicating the word. So God's word and God's spirit has the power to transform lives. Pastor Joe doesn't. You just become a vessel. I become a vessel, an instrument that God uses, and it's a means that God uses to to to proclaim his word. Yeah. Preaching is a divinely ordained means that God has established for the church to receive his word, and so it's awesome. Love it. Yeah. But ultimately, it is it is the Lord's word and it's the Lord's you know, fruit and all those things. So that's just for me, it's again reminding myself of what I'm doing. Um, there are times too where what's helpful is feeling insufficient when approaching the pulpit, which I know you've done many a times, I'm sure, over the years, as I am. There are there are some times where I'm coming in like, oh, I feel really rap, really prepped. And then you're humbled. And I'm humbled. And lo and behold, isn't it funny for me at least? The times I'm like, this one's gonna crush it. Like when you begin to, when you get the little whisper from, you know, uh, this is gonna be a good one. A lot of times, in terms of the congregational response, you're you you often are like, oh, I don't know if that landed. Yeah. When you're done.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. This is the best message I ever preached. Why is no one saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's the times where I'm like, this is I I'm desperate. You know, uh, my prayer, my my prayer before a message. If I'm just being, and I'm I can this is podcast, I guess. I guess I could get to dis disclose honest. I pray far more when I'm feeling insufficient before a message in everything than I do every day, every lane. Yeah, so those moments are always it's just uh they have a course correction for me. Because it's a lot of times in those moments that God uses his word more profoundly when I'm really desperate and desperate needy. Really needy. Yeah. So there's that. There's a whole lot more I could talk about.

SPEAKER_02

When we do good works, when we do good things, when we bless others, uh the praise comes. Yeah. And and it ought to come. Uh it goes back to the Matthew 5. Do your good works before your, you know, so that you might be seen, so that your father might be praised in heaven. And so uh we're gonna do we're gonna do things that bless other people, or we ought to. We it it it should be a part of our Christian experience. Absolutely. Now that the Spirit of Christ is in us and we begin to live in that new life, it's gonna result in praiseworthy things. Yes. I just that even from unbelievers, they're gonna see your good life and say, wow, that's just different, and that's a blessing.

SPEAKER_01

Uh this morning I was reading John 15, and that's also another just reminder that hey, I'm our it is our connection to Jesus that is what produces in and through us this, you know, opportunity. We're it's it's uh we're wholly dependent on him. He's the vine, we're the branches, and apart from him, we can't do anything. So it's there's just those reminders are really healthy, healthy too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know. And this this whole part of the conversation really is just kind of keeping the calibration set on we're not giving to be seen. Uh we're giving to glorify our Father in heaven. But the fact, the reality is, um, it also because we're not giving to be seen, doesn't mean that we're not going to give and receive praise. Yep. It does, you know, we're not, we're not a we're not a community of believers, like don't praise them. Exactly. Yeah, don't ever tell you. Don't ever thank the intention of this part of the conversation is. Yeah. Uh getting getting toward the end of the message and thinking through this through, um, kind of the, and we've circled around this already, but the real question at the bottom might be you know, how how do we become less self-absorbed, yeah, self-promoting, self-glorifying, which was a part of our old broken selves. That's we all were in that lane. So we we need to say that as well. Everyone lived there. There's no one who didn't live in that lane of life is about me and I'm out for my own glory, my own advancement, my own promotion. But how how do we, you know, now that we've come to Christ, uh, how do we how do we as believers become less self-absorbed, more God uh oriented, more others oriented? How do how do we go about doing that? We've already kind of hinted at it, but let's get specific, if you will.

SPEAKER_01

It's a big topic. Well, yeah, I I guess I'd even start by saying, you know, you look at creation, that was the fundamental problem is that we we can be like God.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You know, we we creatures can uh not embrace who we were made to be. We want to be something more, something greater. And it's the self-glory, this pride, this self-exaltation that we're still self-promotion that really was the first fall. Yeah, you know, in the new creation, you know, as as Christ has has uh risen from the dead and offered his new life to me and resurrection life. There are there's the regularly putting off those those things. We still struggle with that. That sin nature is still connected to us. So we're not ever gonna be totally free of that inclination toward self-glory. Yep. But little by little, as we're conforming more into more into the image of Jesus, I think that we are, you know, our minds are being renewed, we're being transformed day by day. And so part of it is just it's the whole, it's it's the long game. You know, uh there's no quick fix to our ability to say, hey, I was selfish yesterday and I glorified self yesterday, but today it's no that's no longer a problem.

SPEAKER_02

We're good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Um sanctification is painfully slow, but it's a lifelong process as we are uh leaning into learning, growing, uh, perceiving uh a truth, proclaiming the truth, reminding ourselves of those truths, yeah, trusting.

SPEAKER_02

You mentioned that earlier, and I I think we can, and you're you're hitting on it now. The the matter of preaching to ourselves the gospel, uh the ordinary means of grace of just spending time in God's word to be reminded of these things. Uh Eric McCowan does the following Jesus class, and I've attended a number of two of them now, and and he talks every time like, hey, we're gonna cover the gospel, yeah, which is great. Even if you're very familiar with it, we just cover this constantly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that has a cultivating effect on our own heart of just being reminded of this all the time.

SPEAKER_01

And we and we have a tendency to relegate the gospel just for the unbelievers. Hey, this good news is just for unbelievers. No, it's for me. I need to hear it today.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. And so, yeah, how do we go about cultivating a heart that's you know less self-absorbed, more God-oriented, which we talked about earlier in this conversation? It goes to that ordinary means of grace of you know, we've got the gospel, which is good news, and we need to hear that all the time. We have a great, benevolent God who has rescued us unto himself, redeemed us for just all that. But then the other ordinary means of grace is just doing life in the community.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The community of faith, doing gathering together because we look at one another and we're reminded of God's kindness and grace, not only to me, but to everyone. Yeah. And uh, and then also in that community of grace is where we literally do good to one another. And um be that's how we become more both God-oriented and others-oriented. That's great isn't the ordinary means of gathering together as God's people. That's great. Yeah, yeah. Uh well, the last last part of this conversation. I I was wondering along this lines of you know, you're you're you're gonna press into this giving and then praying and then fasting, and doing that not to be seen, but doing that for our Father who's in heaven for his glory. Um as you think through these activities, and we'll just center today on giving, sure, as we begin to put that into practice and to be living generously and and doing it for God's glory, doing it for the good of others, does that our habit, does that activity, if we were to begin doing that, does that begin to affect other areas of our life? Is this kind of like one of those unique meta-disciplines that as I grow into this lane, yeah, it actually begins to influence other areas of my Christian exp Christian life?

SPEAKER_01

I think so for sure. I mean you're talking about just just holding in on giving.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. Or you can talk about giving, praying, fasting.

SPEAKER_01

These are these are Yeah, those and these are three big ones. I think we know we well, we've got uh, you know, every once in a while people know if we have little books in the back, but there's some when we begin talking about the spiritual disciplines in general, there are all sorts of activities that Christians can engage in that are fruitful, beneficial. So I brought uh Mathis's Habits of Grace. Great book. Uh that's maybe my favorite book, maybe my favorite book on spiritual discipline. It's one of my favorite books on spiritual disciplines. Uh Whitney's classic, uh Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian life. And there's there's others, and um, but you know, these practices obviously are are opportunities to to live out our faith. And um, and so I think when it comes to things like generosity, you know, well, if we just hone in on that, I think that that begins to touch every aspect of our lives. And again, part of it was to go back into something you mentioned earlier where I talked about the transaction piece is that the idea, like the concept of generosity, is I'm taking my resources and I am freely letting go of them for the benefit of for out of my love for God and love for others, which again in the end does reap heavenly reward. So there there is a payoff, so to speak, in the end. But in terms of my experience in this life, it's it's I'm not I'm not holding on to these things. And that's why I talked about the idea of if the the purpose of your generosity is to receive praise from other people, that you're not you're not releasing, you're not releasing anything, you're exchanging for something else.

SPEAKER_02

Transaction purchased.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And so this idea of actually leaning into generosity, hey, um, there is a God who is benevolent and who is generous. I've been created by him. I have been the recipient of his generosity in ways that I cannot fathom, far beyond my ability to even understand. Um, and the things that I have here are opportunities to resources to be utilized in ways that glorify him. Um, it just that I I can't see how that doesn't touch every aspect of your life. It just reorients your your perspective on the world, on who you are, on who God is, on what you were created to do. Generosity permeates, I think, almost anything.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And well that and the whole the whole gospel orientation to this conversation, yeah, which we started at the beginning, and you also did in your message. This whole gospel orientation just changes the whole conversation on generosity.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's not the pastor, it's not the preacher saying, Hey, the church needs your money. Right. You've not done that, we're not doing that. It you you know what I'm saying? Because that's the complaint that some outsiders have as they consider Christianity, oh, I go to church and they just ask for my money.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if that's the case, then something's being communicated inaccurately, you know, not correctly. Yeah. The posture of we have such a benevolent God who's been so richly kind to us, that just changed that that paradigm changes the whole conversation on general.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And and it almost, I think, when we give we're Yeah, we have got uh a God who um who gave his son and and we offer nothing good in return. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah um it it's there well the Romans 8 conversation on that is if if God gave us his son, yeah, which is the most his highest treasure, yeah, he's not gonna withhold now.

SPEAKER_02

Right. You know, if he gave the if he did the hardest thing by giving us his most precious thing, right, he's he's not gonna be withholding what we need as his children for our benefit and for his glory and for his good.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, but anyways, uh really good.

SPEAKER_02

This is an interesting conversation. For some reason, I'm uh thinking through the old um John Wesley paradigm he had of uh make as much as you can, save as much as you can, give as much as you can. That's a that's that could be a whole other conversation. But that was his approach to this. Uh, as Christians, be as productive as you can be because you've been made in God's image to be productive. So make make make as much as you can, save as much as you can, be wise about what you do with your resources, but at the same time, give away as much as you can. It's an interesting paradigm. That is a good idea. Or a paradox, yeah. But they they fit together. That's good. Yeah, I like it. This is good. Well, I think we may have run to the end of our conversation uh today, but I I I agree with you. I think this particular practice of giving is one of those kind of unique may meta disciplines. Yeah. We begin to do this, and and you said at the end of your message, which I really, really appreciated, uh you came um back at the very end of the message, like there's ways you can do this, and there's ways you can do it now. You even had a couple of um uh funds here at the church that you can contribute to that were you know, a benevolence fund and a scholarship fund, and you can give to these, and it it's something you can do. Yeah, and go directly. And I I I appreciated that as well. There are ways in which to do this, it's not just an idea.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and that was part of the intention too. I guess I didn't hit that at the beginning. We've done a lot of initiatives as a as a church. Oh, yeah. Um and and that that are intentionally corporate and visible, and that's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. Part of what I want to just spur in people is that we don't we don't need to only do the things that are visible. Um, we can do it quiet and to have our a church, you know, be the church and live out these things in ways that are that are purely, you know, maybe maybe nobody sees it is it's just a great another another approach toward um yeah, toward being uh living out our faith in a way that honors and glorifies God, you know. So so part of it too is I was hoping that we could foster that, you know, a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's really good. So really good. Fun stuff. This Sunday we'll gather again. We will. We'll take the next step into the series. Yeah. So giving, we'll praying, praying, looking forward to the definitive message and prayer. Yeah, but it's gonna be exactly 35 minutes. I'll cover everything you can say about prayer. It'll be great. Uh it'll be good from this context, the Matthew 6, Matthew 6 context, and uh talking about praying. Yes, praying and praying to our heaven, our father who's in heaven. I'll look forward to hearing that message. Yeah, so we'll gather here, we'll sing the gospel, yep, we'll preach the gospel, we'll hear a message and prayer. Uh our our East people are gathering for worship at the Grove at 10 o'clock. Yep. That's uh an opportunity for them to worship with their people, with their zone, with their with their region. But it will be a worship service.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we're doing the preaching will be live cast there.

SPEAKER_01

So we're doing services now there at the Grove. Um, right now we're still, you know, encouraging zones in particular to be there. We'll have a little element of homework at the end for them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but really service.

SPEAKER_01

That's what it is. And so hopefully that just enables people to take part in that and uh gather with people in their community.

SPEAKER_02

And so same song set, same preaching, same message. The message that is here will be will be there.

SPEAKER_01

So it'll be it'll be the kind of mirrored for what we do. That'd be helpful.

SPEAKER_02

Looking forward to Sunday, looking forward to gathering me too. It's been a good conversation.

SPEAKER_01

Me too. Awesome. Well, hey, Mark, appreciate the time that you took to great questions. Uh, appreciate anybody who's been tuning in this whole time to listen. We're thankful for you guys and uh look forward to connecting with you next week.