After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 26

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 26

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Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to After the Amen. This is the podcast segment here at Frank Mouth Bible Church where we take our content from Sunday morning sermon and we unpack it later in the week. And once again, I'm joined by Pastor Mark Hazen. Mark, how you doing? Good. Real good. Good to be back. Good to be talking to all you guys again. Whether you're listening or watching on YouTube, I don't know where people tune in or if they tune in. I don't really, I don't really know.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe driving along in their car listening to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Maybe driving in their car. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Matter of fact, I know there are some that do that. That's great.

SPEAKER_02

So hopefully we can make your drive a little less monotonous. Monotonous. Hopefully we fill something in. Yeah, it'd be great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, hey, you're week two on a three-week sermon series.

SPEAKER_02

I am. We're we're already over halfway done, which is crazy. But that's a short one. It's a short one. Moving from Ecclesiastes to here, it's a pretty drastic change, you know, just because it's Ecclesiastes. You feel like once you're in there, you're in there for a long time and your head is filled with Ecclesiastes. And now this is kind of just a short series. This is a short one.

SPEAKER_00

But all three uh messages taken from Matthew 6. Yep. Coming out of the Sermon on the Mount. Uh giving, praying, fasting is this week. And uh so we're on week two, which is on uh praying, praying in secret, which is good. Um good message again. You began the message just talking about having a good father. Yeah. I know your father. Your father's your father's a good man. Yeah, he is. And uh, but you you referenced the fact that uh and you brought up some illustrations that as a kid he taught you how to drive a car, drive a stick shift, taught you how to tie a tie, and then you mentioned that even as an adult, he came over and was teaching you or showing you how to sharpen your lawnmower blades. I'm sitting there in the message and I'm like, hey, this is mowing season. I wonder if Joe could help me sharpen my blades.

SPEAKER_02

Uh yeah, I could. At this point, I've got the I've got the jig.

SPEAKER_00

I've got that was new too. I I've sharpened blades, but I've always done it freehand. You apparently have a jig then. I guess it makes a difference. I bet it would. So I'll bring my blades over. We'll work it out. Along with you know, everyone else here at Breaking With Bible. Yeah, there you go. You got a new side hustle.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there we go. It's great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, it it was it was a good start to the uh just the fact that we have you have a good father, and you related that to the Heavenly Father and got into this sermon on prayer. But uh, I was just thinking through that, like what are one of the benefits what is one of the benefits uh of having a good father? You don't need the greatest benefit, just but what is what are some of the great benefits of having a having a good father?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, are you thinking just then in general or your earthly father?

SPEAKER_00

No, your earthly father.

SPEAKER_02

Man, that's really hard to reduce it down to like one of the one or two of the biggest things. I mean, I just think Yeah, that's why I'm not looking for the definitive one.

SPEAKER_00

Just you know, what are what are some of the benefits of having a good father?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's interesting because my um my parents just moved to Frank and they blessings for you, blessings for you. That's was close. So I've always been blessed to have family that are that's close, but um, it's just so much nicer to have them in Frankemuth, which is great. So um I just talked to my dad on the phone this morning. So it's like I think the the cool thing is just for me at least having um that person in your life who has you know the role of having a father for me has changed because I'm no longer under the household. You know, are a father, yeah. Right, exactly. My dad was the the authority in my life for many, many years, and uh moving outside of his roof, that uh you know, authority role in my life became much more of a mentor guide, you know. Uh he still, though, at times needs to help me understand, no, you should think about this, or maybe don't do it that way. But the way he approaches it is probably different. But yeah, what a just a great resource throughout my life. I know that for me, it's um because I've entered into fatherhood, I learned from my dad, you know, and he was really, really good. Um and I think that as is true probably with every person, it's like, you know, there are things that you see your father do that you you learn from in good ways, and there are things that you want to improve upon. And I know for him, you know, he there are things that course corrections he took with how he grew up, and so I was very uh well loved growing up.

SPEAKER_00

And and every father is a novice, they're doing it for the first time. Absolutely. So there's a lot to learn in that. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

But so yeah, it's just been a blessing all the way around. Um and now it's just cool too, because he's a grandpa, and so he takes on that real really well, and my kids love him, and so yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00

Dads provide a unique uh security, stability. They're just a presence, which is remarkable.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

The on Sunday it was uh interesting that you kicked off the series talking about your dad and used him illustratively. Yeah. Uh on Sunday we sang a song um which we sing here, The Lord Will Provide. And one of the repeated phrases in that song is everything my need, everything I need, my father has it. Yeah. And I thought, oh, that's just a that's just a really good truth. It is a good truth. Speaking of our Heavenly Father, everything I need, my father has it. But it also is interesting growing up with a a dad. And then you grow into adulthood. Sure. Dad just seems to have everything. He's got a jig for more. They just have it all. They've got a a lifetime of of stuff, both knowledge and resources. Yep. I have uh I've I'm a father as well. I have uh three married daughters and a son who's married as well. And it was interesting thinking back, uh, my daughters in particular. Um they go off to college and then they find a a uh a spouse and they get married. Yeah. And uh it was interesting when they were newly married, something would happen, something would go wrong or something would happen, and they'd they'd call me. Yeah, and I'd be like, Have you talked to your husband yet? And they'd be like, No. Like, well, you call him, and then if you need you, you call me back. It's just an interesting transfer at that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because it's just uh reminding them, hey, remember at your wedding when I totally gave you away?

SPEAKER_00

I'm like, glad to help. You know, but talk to your husband, and you both might circle back, but that's just interesting because dad's dads provide that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02

They are, yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_00

The other thought I had as you were uh beginning the sermon talking about having a good father, which you've been blessed with a good father. Yeah, um, not everyone has that experience. Right. And so I was thinking there's even people in the room that you're preaching to, and they're like, Oh, that's not been my experience of having a good father, right? And that's that's a heavy weight. And unfortunately, that is very common.

SPEAKER_02

And becoming more common. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A lot we could say about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we'll yeah, probably leave that for another another conversation, another time. It it made me think of uh Psalms 2710. That's uh a favorite verse or one of my favorite verses. It says the psalmist says there, uh, for my father and my mother have forsaken me. So the psalmist at some point in his experience have has experienced the forsaking of his parents, yeah. Whatever that was, whatever led to that. But it he says, For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord will take me in. Yeah. That's just like awesome. How how should that uh acceptance of a heavenly father fall on those who have have a good father and those who don't have a father?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think that that's uh that's a really good thought to consider or think through. I think um, you know, nobody has a perfect father. No uh that's earthly. We're all novices. Exactly. Yep. Um we we have a perfect heavenly father, which is great. And so obviously, there's there are always gonna be deficiencies in our earthly fathers that we can rejoice over the fact that God is not deficient in anything, you know, our heavenly father is perfect. So there's gonna be that element. I think for those who've experienced good fathers, they have the advantage of of rightly um understanding the way that God has uh and and uh uh many ways chosen to relate Himself to us because it's it's those safety, security, provision, love, acceptance, you know, um uh d discipline, healthy discipline. You know, those are the those features that we get from our earthly father. When when we experience that in good ways, it helps us better understand the relationship we have with our Heavenly Father. So that's awesome for those who've had had those good experiences. For those who've not had good experiences with their earthly father, I think it's just a source of great comfort. And I think um that's something they can rejoice in when they feel I think they also intuitively know what a good father should be like.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And so the argument, like, oh, I didn't have a good father, so I don't really relate to the heavenly father as a father, I I think that falls as inaccurate because we just intuitively know what the father could be, should be. And exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I think that that that's uh um yeah, and I think in in those situations it's um it's just great to know that like, yeah, we we have a heavenly father who is always there, he's always on our side, you know. So I think for those people for sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and the in the psalms that I quoted, you know, here's a psalmist who's been forsaken by his parents. And the fact that the Heavenly Father will not forsake us to use that same word. Uh, I mean, he has forsook his son on the cross when Jesus became sin for us, so that we would not be forsaken. Yeah, and the Father has worked acceptance for us to bring us into his family is just a remarkable truth. Of course, we delight in the gospel, glory in the gospel. So we're gonna circle back there all the time.

SPEAKER_02

But I'm also thinking I'm I can't remember exactly which psalm this is, Psalm 46. No, no, I don't think I don't think that's it. But uh the psalmist says uh father to the fatherless and a defender of widows is God in his holy habitation. Yeah. So God's um uh the the God who in in his holy habitation and and where he dwells, he is he is one who is there for those who are abandoned, you know, in that sense. Uh whether it's loss of a father or or loss of a spouse, you know, that's who God is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, anyways.

SPEAKER_00

Psalm six, you you dealt with a passage that that deals with prayer, and um and one of the even part of that model prayer, our father who art in heaven. You you talked about how that was a significant change in the mind of the hearers of like huge the relational component of that. You know, that prayer begins, our father who art in heaven. Yeah, and then you get further into the New Testament and just the relationship that has been established where God relates to us as his dearly loved children, absolutely adopted sons and daughters, all of that. That relational component is huge.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I really think that for me, that's why I started with that illustration, the the thread I would see woven like there's a lot of stuff in that section. Obviously, the series is Secret Service. Yeah, but as I mentioned, when you look at the way that the text is laid out, the the first couple verses of of our text fall in line very neatly mapped with the giving section, the praying. It's the same pattern repeated, right? About when you give, when you pray, when you fast. But this passage in particular, Jesus then he he unpacks significantly more stuff. He talks about the pagans, the Gentiles, and then he goes through the the model, the example.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But the thread I think I see through that is your father, you know, through that. It's that's kind of the repeated thing. And so I think that that's one of the things Jesus is trying to convey to us that in prayer it is an opportunity to commune, to connect with our father.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah. Yeah. So you uh as you this conversation is making me think along the lines of we have a heavenly father that we pray to, so the relational component. Uh, we often pray together and we pray in community. The church prays. Uh, this is a unique, you know, uh pray in secret. This is also a uh private thing, singular thing that we can have with our heavenly father alone, which is also I hadn't thought of that prior to this, but that's just a dear thought that we have the ability to communicate with our Heavenly Father, yeah, and do that in secret. Yeah. And he hears. Absolutely. Yeah, it's really good. Well, let's let's press into that. Your your text for Sunday was Matthew 6, uh verses five through 15. It was on the topic of prayer. Uh you led us in the text, led us in the text well. You communicated as you led us through the text, uh, first the purpose of prayer, second was the pitfalls of prayer, and then third, the pattern of prayer, just by a quick recap. You know, let's just do a one, two sentence summary of those things. Yep. So the you began with the purpose of prayer. So the purpose of prayer is, you know, what's a what's a few sentence summary of that part of the message?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think the the so prayer is a huge topic. I'll start by saying that. But I I uh to try to be as reductionistic as I can just for for clarity. For a recap of something. For a recap, yeah. I I think uh it's our opportunity to to talk with God, you know, to communicate with God. That's the the biblical means that God has given us to communicate with him. And I think that the peace I try to bring with that was helping us understand who God is. Oh, yeah. Um, so that we understand who God is, because it's I think um that that's an important feature to understand our God is a God who not only speaks but he hears. And so, um, and he's given us a way to communicate with him, which is great. And the gospel in particular and the truth about who Christ is and what he's done, um give us a whole new perspective on the fact that that when we communicate, he hears, he responds, we have open access to come before him through Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I appreciated that part of the the message where you talked about the fact that that prayer is communication, communication with God, but you highlighted in that that God speaks to us in his word. He's spoken definitively in Jesus Christ, spoken definitively in his word. So God speaks to us in his word, and we speak to God in prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That was that was helpful. That was good. Um, so that's the purpose of prayer. Yep. Communication, communicating with God. Uh pitfalls of prayer. You had a couple of them, a couple of them right from the text. Yep. But yeah, Jesus on pitfalls of prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Jesus wasn't exhaustive here, but he gives two examples. And I think the one would be obviously when when we make prayer a means of self-glory, you know, which is what the the Pharisees did. And so, um, and I think the that whole section about praying in secret, you know, I think that's a good reminder for us too, that it's like it's it's that opportunity to commune with God. Um the motive there, obviously, of praying in secret is that you're connecting with the Father. Uh the unfortunately, the pitfall for the hypocrites is that they they're not really so interested in connecting with their father, they're interested in being held in high esteem by the crowd. I think of the way I described it is they're not as concerned about their father hearing their prayer, they're more concerned about other people hearing those prayers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and so so the pitfall for for one in one essence is that we are using the spiritual disciplines, things like prayer, to make much of self. Um, the other one was I think it's again, this is a the disconnect here for the Gentiles is that they they didn't have a view of God in a relational sense. I think I talked about the fact that the pagan deities were powerful but not personal. I mean you're not in a relationship with them. You're you're trying to do whatever you can to stir up and get their attention and hope that they're not too angry for your benefit. Yeah, yeah, it's a very self-focused um and and uh um it's all about your ability to somehow do your part to get the God to, you know, and it that's it's just such a disconnect from who our father is. Yeah, and so Jesus makes it really clear, no, your father already knows. And so I think part of that is just understanding who God is and praying rightly to him in relationship. So um, so those are some of the pitfalls, not not rightly understanding who God is or or taking God of the equation and making much of self.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure there's other pitfalls, but yeah, you you said this isn't a definitive list of the pitfalls of prayer, but a couple of them in the text would, you know, being held in high esteem of others, so praying to be heard not by God but by the crowd, and then the the heaping up empty phrases to earn God's pleasure.

SPEAKER_02

And I think in the first century, too, you Jesus in those two statements, he and he um he hit large sections of the culture. Right. I mean, um the hypocrites in many senses were probably a lot of the religious leaders of his day. And um and for them, a lot of it was about their own self-righteousness, you know, and so I think he's hitting a large group there, and then you have obviously the Gentile community. So um there probably are pitfalls today if Jesus were to do that in our context, that he might have other things he would address.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's kind of interesting because I'm thinking along those lines, hadn't thought of it prior to just now. The praying in order to be held in high esteem by others, yeah. Um, we might have more of a challenge today where people who have no interest in praying publicly, so just the opposite, like uh uh just highly uncomfortable praying in public. Uh some of that is related to the intimacy of prayer, you know, intimacy with God and as we commune with him. And so to do that publicly would be really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But uh and we also don't have a culture where praying publicly would be held, would put someone in high esteem. Uh people might get uncomfortable even praying at a restaurant over a meal. So it's just a different culture. So it'd be kind of interesting to press into maybe some of the modern pitfalls, but that'd be different. All right, anyways, we're getting far afield. We're gonna we're going beyond the succinct summaries. Uh but we the purpose of prayer, the pitfalls of prayer, the last was the pattern of prayer, which you led us into the Lord's prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So yeah, in terms of the pattern of prayer, I think I would just there's this kind of a uh natural division there. I think there's the first three things he he focuses on. It's a God-centered prayer, you know. So Jesus makes it very clear that when we pray to the Father, we we affirm who the Father is, his purposes, his plans, right? And so it's um it's an opportunity to have a God be central, um, our father central in in the prayer. But then the part of it is that you're because you're communing with the father, your father cares, you know, a good father cares for his children.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So being able to then press into the elements of of our own experience and the the the needs I talked about, the our sins, our temptations. So um there's a focus on on who God is and what he's doing, and there's a focus on our experience and what we need from the Lord. And I think both are features of prayer that are wonderful, you know, a blessing. And so Jesus walks through that.

SPEAKER_00

When you think through that model of prayer, yeah, and the first part of it being very God-oriented, God's name, God's will, God's kingdom, and then the latter part being, you know, related more to our our needs, our sin, our struggles, right? Um it it makes me wonder, as it were getting back into the pitfalls of prayer, if we were to take that as a model of prayer and not just necessarily recite it, but make that a model. Uh I wonder what part of that we might err on. If you you know what I'm saying? You know where I'm kind of going with that? Oh, yeah, for sure. Because uh, and and some of it deals with our our our own immaturity, my own my own immaturity as a kid growing up in my father's kingdom, having been accepted because of Christ.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um we we are intimately aware of our needs and we easily take them to the Heavenly Father, and we're invited to, and we should. Um But being schooled to slow down in prayer, to think through God's name, God's kingdom, yeah, would just be interesting.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think um part of it's our culture, part of it's just the you know, I'm I'm preaching to the choir here, but just the busyness of everything everybody's always on the go and doing things. I think it's interesting here because Jesus is advocating for us going to the secret place, you know, when he talks about that and and closing the door, and and Jesus himself, we talked about this just before numerous times, you know, Mark chapter one, he goes and he finds a solitary place when it's still dark, and you know, he's got a lot going on, but there are moments where Jesus wanted to get alone in prayer with the Father. Yeah, and um I don't know if that's a regular practice in our culture today where many people take time to do that or carve out that time. A lot of our prayers are probably, yeah, it's like very immediate. It's it's based on, you know, yeah, either blessing this food to our bodies or help me pass this test. It's like these really quick moments. And I don't even think immediate, urgent need. Yeah, and I I again, like you said, I don't want to even say that those are wrong. I I appreciate the fact that we take those things to the Father. I think that's a good thing. One of my most repeated prayers is Lord help me. Because that throughout life there are so many things I'm like, all right, I just I need help here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I think if that's all if that encompasses the totality of our prayer, I think we're missing out on the other the other Oh yeah. Some of the some of the intimacy of communication. Oh, absolutely. And and and yeah, just connecting with the Father. Uh it's just so huge. I don't know if we have I don't know if it's in the questions, but I just know for me. Well, I'll save it. Maybe there's quite I'll bring it up later.

SPEAKER_00

Nah, don't forget it. I will circle back to it. All right. Um in the purpose of prayer is you know, communicating with God. Yeah. We're probably already scratching on that. But what do you what do you think is one of the greatest hurdles in communicating with God? And how is that hurdle is overcome? So, you know, you know what I mean? Communication with God should be rather um I want to say easy, because I mean God has done the work to accept us into his family. Yeah, he brings us on as his dearly loved children. That's fantastic. And now we have a heavenly father. And uh, but what is the what would be the hurdles of you know prayer and and how are those hurdles overcome? You know, I think one of the things, oh boy, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

You mentioned busyness. So we could that is a hurdle. Busyness, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That made me think of a book several years ago. There was a book entitled uh Too Busy Not to Pray. Oh, just kind of flip that around. It's like, yeah, we're if we're so busy, we probably ought to spend some more time in prayer.

SPEAKER_02

That's really good. That's uh interesting. Yeah, I thought you were thinking about De Young's book, uh, it's a crazy busy or anything. Oh, yeah. Um yeah, I think certainly busyness, there's a lot of uh features there. I think going back a little bit to the text and part of where Jesus is leaning in is that um I think it's just important for us to remind ourselves that God is real and he really is our father and we really have a relationship with him. I think that that's one of the barriers is that I think practically for people, and it's part of even where this habit of prayer, this discipline of prayer, this uh practicing our righteousness, which is good to practice these things. Yeah. Prayer is a thing you should practice. You should grow in. That's a it's a it's a discipline, you know. Um Yeah, I I think that sometimes we we tend to lose sight when we're praying, you know, especially if we're like, oh I got I got two minutes to pray, or whatever it is, or one minute to pray. We maybe there's the awkwardness of you know, nobody's there. You know, it just like we're when I talk to my empty room, I'm here. Yeah, and I think that there's part of that that I share that just because the essence of Christianity, it's interesting. You read passages like what Paul says in in First Corinthians about looking to not to that which is seen, but that which is unseen. The things that are seen are temporary, the things that are unseen are eternal. It's interesting that the the essence and um Hebrews also talks about that with uh what faith is the essence of Christianity is us seeing it's almost an oxymoron to say, look at the things that are unseeable. Yeah, that's unseen. It's a it's a it's a hard thing to comprehend. We say, Oh, we should we should be but no, we should continually be gazing on that which is unseen and seeing with the eyes of our hearts. And that's kind of the essence of the Christian faith is that we we're we're walking by faith, not by sight. And when we pray, we're commu we're we're actually communing with our father. But part of that discipline is understanding that that there is this sweet fellowship that can be had with the Father as you remind yourself of the truth of who God is and remind yourself of the gospel and understand your father is in heaven, he loves you. But I think a lot of times it may be a lack of faith or a lack of um confidence could be a barrier. I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

That's just me thinking through just Yeah, what you're saying makes me think along the lines of you know, God is transcendent and God is imminent, meaning God is in heaven, but God is imminent makes me think of what Paul said to the philosophers in Athens, you know, in him we live and move into our being. So God is in heaven and removed from us, he's holy, he's in the he's in a category all by himself, but he's also imminent. We it we live and move in him. So he's also near. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that before by way of prayer is realizing, remembering, recognizing the nearness of God. Yeah. He is at hand, he's he's not far away. Um and so we're in the room, we're in the secret place, he's there. He's there, he's there with us. Well, where can I go from God's presence? Right? You can't get it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I well and I guess that's where I even bring it the piece about the the habit. It's the you know, these are the prayer is a spiritual discipline, and uh spiritual disciplines are meant to be exercised. We're meant to we're meant to make these habitual parts of our lives. And when we neglect prayer, um it probably feels at times a little bit more difficult or more awkward, just because it's like you know, what we're we're we're we're speaking, we're praying, um, but maybe we don't feel I don't know. That's just a thought I had.

SPEAKER_00

Well, another thought that's coming to my mind is um you know, you've been married 16, 16 years, 17 years?

SPEAKER_02

17.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I knew it had to be around there. Yep. Um and so when you think about your communication with your wife of where it was you've been married 17 years, so where it was 18 years ago, before you were married, and then after you get married, and and where you are in communicating with her today, it's just it's developed, it's grown, it's improved. And and it's not as though you have you've worked at it, but it's not as though you've worked at it. Yeah, yeah. It just develops as as your relationship matures.

SPEAKER_02

And a big part of it, too, and I that's a great illustration. I think that's the whole, you know, he talks about father, but I mean the husband-wife relationship is also a uh way in which God reveals his our relationship with them. You know, we're we're the um Christ is the groom, we're the bride, and so um part of it is I understand my wife more. Now again, she's mysterious and wonderful, and I'm still learning who she is.

SPEAKER_00

And you will to the end rest of your days.

SPEAKER_02

But there are times where early on for example, you might be familiar with this. I'll be careful how I say this. Um men, I'm I'm speaking in broad, I'm brushing in broad stroke here. Sure. Men will often say what they want or think. Women don't always do that. I think it's intuitive to that species. I just, you know, I mean, women just kind of know that. Like it's like, I think they want you to know what they're thinking. Yeah. Or they might say something and it has implications that means something else.

SPEAKER_00

You need to interpret this accurately.

SPEAKER_02

And early on in my marriage relationship. Oh no, I'm like, you didn't you didn't say you felt that way. Didn't even come close to that. Not that I have to. And you're like, and now it's you you grow in that relationship, and it's like, yeah, I mean, um uh my wife is still mysterious and in wonderful ways. And I I um very blessed. But as I go through that relationship, I I know her so much better. So there are times where now I've I've picked up on those clues, and so our communication is far better, largely in part because I've I know her. Yep. And you've grown in the relationship. The same thing is true with our father. Sure. As we grow and mature in this in the Christian walk and in our sanctification, and we we understand who God is, uh, his character, his nature. Um, it it's helpful.

SPEAKER_00

There's there's another part of that's coming to mind is um again, for you married 17 years, I've been married 37 years. Um you you learn and you grow in your communication because you know one another better. Right. You also can appreciate and thoroughly enjoy being in the same proximity and being silent with one another. Sure. You can just be quiet with one another and and both are just immensely comfortable.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

And that's interesting to think through prayer as well, particularly in in Matthew 6, go to that secret place and pray and uh communicating with God, you know, praising him, real you know, giving him your request, but also just the comfortability of of being quiet. Yeah. That would be a part of that communication as well.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I think that that yeah, just just being together is great. You know, it's it's one of those things, and you you experience that in marriage. You you learn that through your your marriage relationship. But I think that yeah, the same is totally true with a relationship with our father, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, just our comfortability of of being uniquely in his presence by way of going to the going to the secret place and spending time in prayer. That's good. That's great. All right. The instruction here in the text, which you also referenced on Sunday, uh, the text begins with when you pray. And so it's kind of the it's it's expected, it's anticipated. That's what's going to happen. You now have a heavenly father, so pray that you know, when you pray, pray this way. Um so we've already scratched on that a little bit, but what what would it communicate to us if we're not praying? What would prayerlessness communicate?

SPEAKER_02

Boy, it could communicate some different things. I mean, I guess, most certainly. Um Yeah, I'll I'll bring it back to part of that too is maybe maybe your fellowship that you the the the your your perspective on on who God is. Maybe that's one of those things you need to remind yourself of some of those things. Um it could also hadn't thought of that.

SPEAKER_00

The the the lack of fellowship that I have with my Heavenly Father because of um decisions that I made, paths that I've taken that have hindered the fellowship on my end. Exactly. And so the John 1 9, confess your sin and the restoration of fellowship. That's interesting. Hadn't thought of that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But that's good. It's one of the things I'm just, you know, most kind of just just thinking through. But um, I think the other piece too is that I think uh uh uh your priority, the priorities that you've developed and some of the habits maybe that you developed in life might maybe also need some re reevaluation in those moments. And I think that that's also probably one of those things that just should be considered in terms of if if uh I'm navigating through my life and I'm I'm not talking regularly to the one that I've been joined to in a relationship with covenant relationship with. Um it's just important. I think the same thing. It's like it's it's to go back to the marriage illustration, it's like there are just times where it's like, hey, we need to bake into the calendar date night. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and it's just like I think when you think through that your your rhythm of life, it's important to to have rhythms that include just that regular connection. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but I think through prayerlessness personally, my immediate mind goes to if I'm not praying, I'm being arrogant. I'm like I can handle this on my own. Oh, absolutely. And that may just be, you know, running ahead, busyness, which you talked about. But yeah, when I think through if I'm not praying, I'm personally, I'll just make that my own. I'm I'm pridefully thinking I can handle this. Yeah. And uh which is a which is a mistake on many levels.

SPEAKER_02

And it gets this maybe gets into deep waters, but there's a part of also challenge, hardship, suffering. We tend to view these things in very in in very negative ways and sometimes throw up our hands and wonder why we go through certain things. Um those are also opportunities where God puts us in positions of dependence, and that's a really that's not always a bad thing. You know, Paul, when he talked about the um oh, is that an axe where he's he's going through no? I'm trying to remember where where that's at. Where he talks about um going through the hardships in Asia.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Where's that at?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's 2 Corinthians chapter 1.

SPEAKER_02

That's it, okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But he said he he burden beyond our ability to endure it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he says it's like a death sentence on me. He says, yeah. And he said, but God did this, uh, but that this happened, so that way I would learn to trust and not depend on me, but trust on God who raises the dead, yeah. And I think about that verse often in my own experience where I go, you know, sometimes I'm like, boy, this is a hard season, but I've I've realized in the hard seasons it is a it's a funnel toward God in moments that I don't think I think also that you talked about arrogance. I think oftentimes uh when people are experiencing seasons of blessing for a prolonged period of time, it's far easier to fall under those patterns of hey, I got this discovered. And and when you're and when you hit the end of your ropes, you're like, oh man.

SPEAKER_00

That that was a that was the big warning that God gave to the children of Israel as they're taking over the promised land. Like you're gonna go in there and experience blessing beyond measure that that you didn't earn, that you didn't achieve, that the total gift, and uh and be careful that your heart doesn't lead you astray and uh in in the midst of that blessing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You become self-sufficient.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

In seasons of blessing sometimes.

SPEAKER_00

Uh paraphrasing um uh Larry Osborne and circling back into what you were saying, um, Larry Osborne said something along the lines of God has an ability to take his children into need to know, need to grow moments.

SPEAKER_02

That's great.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I thought that's that's been helpful for me. He has an ability to grow us spiritually, whether it's in the matter of prayer, he can bring us into circumstances where we find ourselves on our knees. We find ourselves in that quiet place. And in it's in a real sense, God's orchestrated that for our benefit. And it may just be cultivating a deeper intimacy with him as we go through whatever that experience is. So yeah, God has I like that. Need to know, need to grow experiences.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

We we work on, you know, you you've talked about the fact that you know we need to cultivate a rhythm of regularly praying, sure, even having that quiet place to go to. Um, and we we want to participate with God and his work and and growing spiritually. Yeah, but God has an ability to do that in the lives of his children. Absolutely. Even if they're not yeah, good. Yeah. Uh uh let's press into the the model of prayer. Jesus gives uh the disciples uh a model prayer. When you pray, pray this way, and he he gives them the Lord's prayer. And I was thinking along the lines of from our uh church experience, sure, our church tradition, uh we hear a lot of extemporaneous prayers, prayers that are on the moment, they're not necessarily uh thought through prior to the prayer, sure. Um even public prayers that way that are just that are just given in the in the in the media, impromptu. In other church traditions, there are a lot of uh recited prayers. Sure. Or even reciprocal prayers where it's uh uh gone back and forth. Uh any thought on on on that, on extemporaneous prayers that are more common in our experience in other, we might call them high church or or more liturgical churches that really have prayers that are read and recited regularly. Just thoughts on that, because it's a it's a big team, big thing in church experience.

SPEAKER_02

It is a big thing. I I tried to just press into it a little bit when I talk through that. I think I made kind of a few comments to that end in the message. I think that there are some people would say that Jesus gives us you know, here here's the prayer that we should pray exactly. You know, like I mentioned, like the script, and some um it's more of a the the model. I think both are important. I guess I would probably start by saying that. I don't think that's a good starting bad one is inherently bad. I I th I would personally um recommend that that maybe like for example, so like I my kids have not grown up in that environment, but yeah, on the way to school a couple years ago, we I taught them the Lord's Prayer. We we practiced it on the way to school every day, and now they know the Lord's Prayer, and it's like they're in social settings sometimes where whether you're in other church environments or whatever, whether someone's yeah, funeral, someone says the Lord's prayer, and then we all recite it together, they can recite the Lord's Prayer. Um, I think there's value in having some memorized or scripted prayer. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think if that's exclusively what you are doing, I would I would just suggest part of what Jesus is teaching here is that relationship with the Father. You know, um I have a relationship with my wife, I have a relationship, you know, though those are those are conversations where you can uh there there's the opportunity for us to take our needs. You know, we're commanded to invited and commanded both commanded to take things to the Lord in prayer. And uh, you know, there's not a script for every one of those. So the fact that you're in a relationship with your father, I think that's an important feature to have as well. So I think both are healthy. I think um I think weaving in a healthy dose of both is a really good practice, is what I would recommend. That's probably the way I would approach that in terms of my thinking.

SPEAKER_00

Um it's interesting because we're in a we're in a church tradition and grew up in an experience where uh read and recited prayers are not common. Correct. And so we do encounter them, we do experience them. And because they're not common, I think we have a different view and take on that. We we we hear that prayer and we're like, oh, that's rich. Yeah, and that's good. And it may have been written 1500 years ago. Exactly. And we're like, oh, that's just really good. The the the flip side of that is someone who's used to hearing that every week or every meal, whatever, it might become one of those empty phrases that are just you know, we just recite this. But uh so there's it's not a pro or con. It's just a unique difference in experience.

SPEAKER_02

And there are different uh don't want to overshare, but like my my mother-in-law was just talking to me about this last week about the topic of prayer, and for her, as a child, she got to a point where she, you know, she she didn't know that she could just talk to God.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, this is these are the ways you pray.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Interesting. So, and I won't press into that too far. My point, though, is just that that is a certainly and a very important feature to consider. And I think, like almost anything, churches, if if this is your experience with churches like FBC or churches like us where it's more extemporaneous prayers, I think it's healthy for you to consider in your prayer life weaving in. Even read a book on those prayer.

SPEAKER_00

Even read a book on prayer.

SPEAKER_02

There are books of recorded prayers. Or one of the things I've not probably done nearly enough of, but I periodically try to do is I'll even like maybe pray through some of the Psalms. You know, you read it and you can turn it toward prayer. These are these are songs that are written that are recorded prayers to the Lord. Many of them are are these just prayers, whether it's David that wrote them, for sure, and taking them and praying through them is a really cool thing. And that's you know, that's a that's different than just us, you know, thanks for the food, you know, are you helping at school today? Like those, the the extemporaneous prayers that we often have, it's an opportunity for us to press into something that wasn't original to our mind, but then using that as an opportunity for prayer. So I I would say baking it, you know, so there yeah, everybody's in probably a different camp, but we should exercise, we should flex the muscles that we're not as familiar with in prayer on either side of the coin.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you mentioned the Psalms, I hadn't thought of that, but the Psalms is a massive Old Testament book that records both prayers and songs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you read through the prayers and it's instructive. Absolutely. And it's it's more than instructive. It's uh it's at times shocking. Like I wouldn't have thought of saying that to God. Exactly. And uh and it teaches us to be open, honest, transparent, authentic in our communication with the Heavenly Father. Yeah, if you're upset with him, you might as well tell him because you're not hiding it from him. Exactly. Yeah, that's good. Uh that gets us into the next question. You know, you your sermon was on praying in secret. Um, any any best practices, if you will, or things that you've done that have been personally helpful in developing a good prayer life.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, full disclosure, I would even say if you know this, so we're when we're talking about things like prayer and fasting, you know, these are we've talked about spiritual disciplines a little bit. So there are um a number of spiritual disciplines that we engage in, exercise throughout the Christian life. Um I just part of it's my wiring. It's easier for me to get in the habit of reading my Bible than it is for me to pray.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And so I So hearing from God. Yep. Morgan. I have uh I have a lot of room to grow here.

SPEAKER_00

So this is not This is one of those disciplines I think everyone would say that.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. Well, you can probably say it with all of them, to be fair. Oh, we can always do more. But I I have if you were to say, hey, talk about some of the disciplines that you really want to work on, yeah, prayer is probably always near the top of my list. Yeah, it just is one of the ones that I think I need I need more discipline with. Oh yeah. So I share these tips, not from a person who's landed there. Yeah, yeah. I've not arrived anywhere. But um a few things that are helpful for me. One is as a pastor, I frequently get people who say, Can you pray for X, Y, and Z? Can you pray for me for this? Or can you pray for those things? One habit I've learned is I always pray in the moment. Do it then. I do it then. Yeah. Because I might not do it later. I hope I can do it later. And there are times where I might try to write those down. Oh, I need to have that. Or obviously we have certain we have prayer requests through the mobile app that are submitted, and so those get prayed over. But um I pray in the moment a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because I have that relationship with the Father. I can come anytime to him. Yep. And so if someone says, Hey, can you be praying for my uncle? He's going through this or whatever, I'll say, Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I'll pray in that.

SPEAKER_00

If you don't write it down and hand it to me on a card, exactly. Let's pray right now.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. And we can. And sometimes I'll pray with that person, but I'm I'm even saying silently. There are often times where I will tell someone I'll pray for them, and I will just pray in that moment silently. Um, or you know, or I'm aware of something, something comes up and I'm aware of it, I'll pray in that moment just because I know that that's sure I know myself and I know that that's helped. That's one of the things. Um the other one that this is this is maybe more natural for me, but there are this is a little bit disconnected from the pattern, you know. That there, I think, I think there are times where for me, what I want to cultivate are more carved out times for prayer. Oh, that's probably the area of my life that I really want to grow in. One of the things that I have enjoyed is it's just the ongoing fellowship with the Lord.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I I free I one of the things that I practice that I enjoy is having just conversations with the Lord throughout my day. I'm going to brush my teeth.

SPEAKER_00

He's purchased this grace for you to do that.

SPEAKER_02

I'm going to brush my teeth. And it's like, uh, yeah, Lord, you know, just uh thank you just for yeah, it's a it's a great day. This is a this was a good morning. You know, I it was less chaotic in the house, so we're getting the kids ready for school. And it's like it's just having this running conversation. That was something that I think I developed in college that has been formative in my relationship with the Lord. It's just I get to commune with the Father. Um, then the other one is just that, yeah, the um that secret place thing, there's an there's something to that also. I will say there are moments where, and I'll go back to that, that's what I was gonna say earlier. So this is what I I was gonna press into. I have like memories when I was working at a grocery store uh in in high school and college, and my relationship with the Lord was really beginning to really develop there. And there were moments where like I have there's a there's a there's a milk room at a grocery store in Carleton where I had sweet moments with the Lord. And for me, that will always I'll always think back to that fond. Yeah, because it's like it was quiet, there's nobody around. I had you know a couple hours worth of rotating milk and checking dates and all that stuff of work to do. It's just me and the Lord. But you have those opportunities to just have sweet fellowship with and conversation with the Lord and to develop that relationship. So for me, that's been really cool. Uh those are probably some of the things I would I would say I have found helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So your your testimony talking there for a minute made me think of back I I went to college in the 1980s. Yeah. And back in the 80s, there was a um uh an oppressed Christians were persecuted in Romania at that time. Particularly evangelical Christians were being significantly persecuted, many of them were fleeing their country. And there were a number of college aid students from Romania that made their way to Liberty University where I was a student. And uh they were interesting because they would gather together regularly and pray together, which was fantastic to see that. To be like, oh, that's a unique community that had had experienced difficulty, hardship, persecution, fled their country, landed at Liberty, they'd they'd gather and pray. And uh and all of them were getting training, they all planned to go back, which is fascinating. But they also would um they would bring God into the conversation when you're conversing with them. So that was a fascinating thing to observe. Interesting. Like, yeah, they would just it prayer was uniquely different for them in that they would literally be talking to you or talking in a group and and they would just pray in the midst of that conversation. I've never experienced anything like that since then. But they they were any people, I don't know why they came to mind, but when you were talking about that, that was Things uh uh personally that I haven't I'm not doing now, I've done in the past, um, and I'm I'm thinking that through now is journaling prayers. Do you ever write out your own prayers? I have. I have as well. I'm not doing it now. That's for seasons for me, for seasons, that's really valuable. And it forces me to press into what you were talking along the lines of if my need is to work on that that secret place of having a place and a time, um, if I were to begin journaling prayers, it would slow me down and and push press me into that. Absolutely. And so there's been times when I've done that, I'm not doing it now, but as you were preaching Sunday and as I was thinking through the sermon, I'm like, that that would be an area where I could begin to begin writing a diary on prayers. Sure. Now, historically, when I've done that, uh I'll fill a notebook, you know, a spiral notebook, and when I'm done, I pitch it out. It's not as though I save it, I'm not going back to it. That's just personally me. Yeah. Because that's not the purpose of you know, recording those prayers for that end. Right. That was just uh a practice that's been helpful for me. Awesome. Yeah. Um any key biblical passages or even instruction that you've received on prayer historically that's been meaningful to you. Key verses, key passages, key instruction.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um well, there's a lot of stuff on prayer. Yep. I think that there, and that's what we would do with the kind of the running joke we had before I was jumping into that message. Like, oh, this is gonna be the definitive message on prayer. It's gonna be exhaustive. I'll cover everything. Yeah, prayer's uh uh big topic. Um so in terms of passages, I mean there are a lot of unique passages. Well, we're gonna press into a little bit, so I'll I'll save some of this, but you know, fasting, and I think there's a uh fasting are still connected. You know, I'll a little bit there's it's peanut butter and jelly a little bit in terms of what you see in the Bible, and so I'll I'll talk about that some this this week. So the some of that's gonna be probably covered a little bit this week. Um yeah, we talked about, you know, like the the prayers of Paul are pretty incredible. So we have a lot of uh prayers of Paul, so those have been really helpful for me um to to look at. Um Jesus gives parables about prayer. I think I talked about you know the persistent widow, for example. That's been a really good one for me, just because it's like, oh man, I uh He not only gives parables, but he sets the pattern in that he would get a he'd get alone, spend all night in prayer. That's absolutely more than once in the gospels. Right. Which I mentioned too, which was why that you don't it's not a prohibition about long prayers. He's not he's not condemning that in this in chapter six of Matthew. So yeah, so Jesus, his prayer life phenomenal. Yeah. Um yeah, there's just some some pretty cool. I uh did you many, many years ago did some some of the prayers of Moses, which are kind of interesting. So some of our even in the Psalms. They are some of yeah, and it's there's some interesting stuff there, yeah. Uh yeah, directly related to God's covenant relationship with his people and how how Moses prays. Moses, this is a whole rabbit trail, but he repeatedly reminds God of something that God already knows.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, you promised this, and you said this. Yeah, these are your people. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And you're like, I just that was fascinating to me because it's like I think Who's getting coached there? Is Moses Exactly, exactly? But I I think there's something to forgotten. I think there's something to that. I think it's great to it's not reminding God of his promises, but in the prayer, taking time to acknowledge that before the Lord and saying, Lord, you know, remember this. This is what you said. You know, and it's almost like just in terms of the um it's good. I don't know. So that's a Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

A couple uh, you know, we just went through Ecclesiastes, which was a great series, and one of the one of the verses in there, I'm I'm gonna blank on the chapter and verse, and that doesn't matter. But he said, God is in heaven, we are in earth, therefore let your words be few. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I I brought that up in a staff meeting, and I thought, oh, that's that's really good. Um we often pray with limited everything, limited knowledge. Right. Yeah. But yeah, God is in heaven, we are in earth, therefore let your words be few. And so we practiced that even in staff meeting. Talked about, hey, let's just pray a prayer. That's one or two sentences, and uh it was a neat ex exercise. And then um the Thessalonians five, first Thessalonians five, you know, pray without ceasing. Yep. And that you've already hit on that, some along the lines of the ability to pray continually all the time, no matter what environment. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The other thing too we haven't hit, but that's been very helpful for me. The you know, we're going through a book right now on on the fact that we're finite creatures, yeah, and our limitations as creatures and embracing that. There are times where for me it was very helpful and formative. Uh Romans 8 on understanding is it Romans 8 understanding the role of the spirit? Oh, spirit prays for us. You know, that there's that that wow so and the sun. In Hebrews, in Hebrews, Jesus prays for us. Both those passages are significant to me because it's like there are times where my insufficiency, my words, which are few, and my insufficiency to know what to pray for, to know what's happening, to know the situations, to know that I have a helper, an advocate, yeah, and the spirit who is praying for me, who who has he has full knowledge of all those things.

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

And to know that Jesus our faithful older brother. Yep, and the great high priest who and this is always significant to me, who always lives to make intercession for me. Yeah. Like um there's a sense I might I don't know if I'm gonna say this correctly. I gotta maybe think through it, but there's a sense in which the priestly work of Jesus in terms of his atoning sacrificial work is complete and done. Yep. He's finished, I'm gonna finish that.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, and in his resurrection for sure.

SPEAKER_02

But in his advocacy, in his intercession for me, it continues. He's still working in the sense of his his his praying for me, interceding for me. Always he always lives to make intercession. Yeah, those were very those have been very formative in my life too, because it's that's uh what a comfort to know that this the Spirit and the Son are interceding on our behalf.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and the Romans 8, it it literally states that the Spirit prays for us because we often don't know what to pray for. Exactly. That's great comfort. But I was also thinking as you were saying that and bringing out that truth, when we pray in secret and pray alone to the Father, because we talked about it times we pray in community, we pray with one another, we pray in church, but even when we pray in secret, it's a communal event. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02

We're not there alone. Yeah, that's just remarkable.

SPEAKER_00

We're praying to the Father in the name of the Son, to the power of the Spirit, and we have And the Spirit's praying for us, and Jesus is praying for us. So, yeah, that that's good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that that just came to mind as we were talking through that, but that's good.

SPEAKER_00

It's one of those um we could talk about this all afternoon. Exactly. Yeah. A couple other just uh quick practical questions. Uh, any particular person in the in your past that has uh helped you learn to pray? Is anyone come to mind? Oh, yeah. Anyone who's either model of prayer or uh just yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh my grandmother.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, fantastic.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Betty? She did, yeah. She recently passed away. She is incredible. Uh her, especially in her old age, she is somebody who she was homebound for a really long time, a really long time. Yeah. And wasn't, you know, she would obviously we have lots of family who would spend lots of time with her and spent, you know, did a really good job of that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But in her seclusion, it sh I think she spent a lot of time with her Lord, with her father. Yeah. A lot of time. Okay. And even just the crazy thing about that is uh near the end of her life with decline physically, just her ability, she would every time I would see her, she would ask about certain situations in my life or people around me. Yeah. People in our church, yeah, who she's never met in person. Yeah. She had a journal, she would write down and she would pray, and her mind was sharp because she would regularly just spend time with the Lord and intercede for so many people. Um, I mean, I don't, I I am I imagine that she spent considerable time in prayer just from the encounters I had with her. So for me, that's probably the best example I I can think of in my own experience of somebody with prayer. The only other uh maybe formative years, yeah, when I moved overseas, I had um some friends who were a couple years older than me. Um, I can think of a few of them. They're from, you know, uh some friends from Northern Ireland, uh various places in Europe. We would get together, this group of guys, and we would pray. We'd have, I'd say once a month, we'd have these prayer meetings. They would go for hours. Oh, wow. And uh they were and phenomenal. I I think people think of, oh, several hours with a couple guys, but buddies, you know, colleges and praying. Um, that might seem like, oh my goodness, what do you talk about? And it's just like I learned from those guys what fervent, passionate, faith-filled prayer looks like. Uh, and that was a pretty cool experience for me.

SPEAKER_00

So Yeah. Yeah, that's making me think of um a formative again. You're talking about a time when you were in college, you went to college in England. Uh, when I went to college again at Liberty University, there was a guy on my freshman dorm floor, uh, lived right across the hall from me, Tarek Moyer. Um, and he would just say, Hey, you want to get together and pray? And that was the first time where I'm having someone, he's a couple years older than me. He was, I think he went to the military first and then came to college. So he's a few years older, but not much. But to have um a young peer that would grab me a couple times a month and just say, Hey, let's pray together. And uh that was that was informative. It was it was remarkable. That's cool. Yeah, interesting. Uh, books. Any uh uh books on the topic of prayer that stand out to you, things that you've learned from? Yeah. We've got a couple of them here.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. You brought some, I think. Well, I brought up the prayers of Paul earlier. So so uh what I learned I discovered today because I read Praying Like Paul several years ago, but that's the that's called the spiritual reformation sacred. Yeah, you you informed me of that, that it's the same book. So we've got we've got both of them here. So this is my copy, this is your copy. Uh that was a good book, and you you reminding me of it and me looking back through some of my my highlights, I'm like, oh, that was a really good book. So that's uh why I called that to mind. Um you've got some other ones here. I don't know if you got one highlight.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, uh the to circle back into that, Praying with Paul by D.A. Carson, uh probably it's in the top drawer for me of it's a really good book on prayer, and it it it deals with Paul's prayers, yeah, which is it's in remarkable what they what he prays for. And several of his prayers are recorded in the New Testament. And uh so that that's a really informative book. I've got another book by Patterson, uh Deepening Your Conversation with God, very practical. I'm a Tim Keller fan, uh both of his maybe more of his preaching than his writing, quite frankly. Sure. Um, but yeah, he's written a book on prayer um not lot that long ago. And uh so informative, helpful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, uh the other ones I well, we talked about the fact that prayer is a spiritual discipline. So I I did just really appreciate Mathis's most certainly book on spiritual discipline. So um Habits of Grace, he calls it. So again, going back to the practicing or the habitual practice of engaging and exercising these disciplines. Um Mathis is very good. Uh we talked about Whit Whitney Um in his book on the spiritual disciplines, also. He's a professor of mine at Southern, so that was a really good book. Yeah, I mean I'm trying to think of other ones, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, last practical question, and you've already hit on it, uh, but it was the uh the most repeated prayer request that you make personally, and you've already started to hit on that. Yeah. Lord help.

SPEAKER_02

It really is. Yeah. I do that one a lot. And I think part of it too is because I'm I I just I find myself in situations where I'm just pretty dependent. Yeah. Um all the time. As I get older, especially, I'm learning more about my insufficiency. Oh, yeah. It's not a bad thing, it's a great thing, it's a blessing.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Uh we've I've mentioned that book that we're talking about with knowing, you know, our limitations. I think it's good to know that. So that's very common for me. Uh, is that um yeah, in terms of Lord help, because I've got nothing.

SPEAKER_00

It just is there a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I again I don't want to. I think we talked about it a little bit and I think we covered it pretty well, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that prayer.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think it's one of the most spiritual prayers we make. Lord help. Absolutely. Help me. Exactly. Help now, help them.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Um Jesus obviously is giving us a pattern, and I think that that's important to understand, you know, to weave in some of that. But there are times where it's it's uh there's brevity to it, but that that's one of my most repeated prayers. Um, I think the other one too is just thinking through you know, prayer for family, church, things like that.

SPEAKER_00

You know, just people in close proximity that you care deeply thinking.

SPEAKER_02

That's I think the cool thing is that we talked about the priesthood of all believers. I I can come before God, but I also can can intercede on behalf of others. And so the people who are close to me in my life, it's you know, um, that becomes a repeated part of my prayer.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So uh for me, help is uh, you know, yeah, we just need help, and that's a it's a valuable prayer. Uh for me in recent um experience has been just um wanting to walk in the spirit and be filled with the spirit, which uh being filled with the spirit, less of me, more of him, and just um keeping in step with the spirit. Just want to be in step with the spirit, whatever that might mean. And I I don't have an answer to that, but he does, right? So yeah, like just keep us up with the spirit. That's great. Well, this has been a good conversation, good sermon series. Um, it's gonna end quickly. This week is the the third installment of the sermon series, and you've already mentioned uh prayer and fasting are kind of like peanut butter and jelly like that illustration. They often go together. Exactly. And that's where you're heading Sunday. So I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, me too. And then we're we're done with the series and kicking off something else new. That's good. That'd be good.

SPEAKER_00

So very practical. That's been a great, great conversation. Great sermon series.

SPEAKER_02

Well, Mark, I appreciate it. Everybody else, hey, thanks for tuning in. We appreciate you joining us. Uh, hope to see you next week.