After The Amen - Ep. 29

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hello, everybody, and welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frank and Mouth Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And so hopefully you're joining us some point later in the week after this past Sunday's message. And I'm joined by Mark Hazen, our associate pastor. Mark, how are you doing? Good. Good to be here, Joe. Having a good morning.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Having a good morning. I'm sitting here having a cup of Joe with Joe. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

I have a very good cup of Joe. Um so Jordan Lewis made some nice coffee today. And so I don't know if you're nice. Had that yet.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

I did not get into that, but I will know after this is over. Yes. You know, it's a good morning for you and me. It might be 10 o'clock at night for listeners.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Three in the morning. Who knows? Could be any time. I do have a soothing voice, so hopefully it helps put people to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

We could advertise this as a sleep aid. That's right. Exactly. Well, we're pressing back into Sunday's message. Yeah. This is good. You know, looking at more content or pressing into application. It's just unique uh to have the conversation between the two of us and invite other people into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Yeah, I think early on when we started the podcast, we talked about how you just put the this time effort into a sermon, and you have to distill the material into kind of a short, palatable Sunday morning message. And so there's always more to talk about, more to think through, ways to apply it. Um so these conversations are fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, yeah, they're good. Well, this is uh we're in a parable series, and so we're on week two. Right. Uh week one, uh, we looked at the lost and found. Right. So we looked at the the found sheep, the found coin, the found sun, and the sun who remains lost. That was week one. Uh this last Sunday we looked at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Right. Uh again, both of these are very familiar parables. Um, as I was considering both the past two Sundays and these parables of Jesus, uh, I was taking notice that Jesus uses really extreme illustrations, which is kind of fascinating. So in the first parable we looked at, the rebellious son is like the worst case scenario. Like as Jesus is describing this guy, uh people would be disgusted. I don't know the right word, but they would just be incensed at this guy.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Asking for an inheritance before his father's dead, and then wasting that inheritance on selfish, immoral advantages. Yeah, all yeah. He he he's the worst case scenario. Then he comes home and he's welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

And then he gets to the lowest of the low. I mean, when you describe his his He doesn't go be a wheat farmer or a crop farmer, he's a pig farmer.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah. So Jesus is is using a story, and in the story it's an extreme illustration. And then the older son who looks compliant and obedient and uh actually has a very dark heart, and at the end of the story, it leaves with it, he's unrepentant. Um so kind of a another unique extreme.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Uh, this past Sunday you were talking about the the good Samaritan, and as Jesus tells the story, answering the question, Who's my neighbor? He uses the Samaritan.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Which again, the listeners, the people there in that proximity of the story are gonna be like, the Samaritan is the good neighbor? Yeah. I mean, in the context as you pointed out in your Sunday's message, they were inhospitable. They didn't they were they wouldn't house Jesus and his traveling disciples.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

And so And there was real animosity, uh animosity at that point in history, just historically, even between Samaritans having strife and conflict with uh Jews. Yeah, it was not a they were not viewed as your loving neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

In no in no way.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

So as I'm thinking through these stories, and we've only looked at two of them so far in our a series of five messages. Um, Jesus is using just extreme illustrations, extreme examples in the story. Uh any thought toward that? Any reason why you might think Jesus is using extreme examples in the storytelling?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Well, I mean so stories are memorable and powerful as it is. I think that's one of the reasons that Jesus uses these. Um and we might even talk about at some point, just kind of the parables are unique because the parables are lost on certain people. Some people don't understand the parables, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:03

And then Jesus at times has to explain the explain and reveal them, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:06

And there's some intentionality there, but um with the the fact that Jesus is telling a story and then he's using some of these extremes, I think it's just so much more memorable. It's shocking. Okay, it has shock value, and it gives kind of that sense of um it's something that's gonna really like stand out and make it really clear. I think using the extremes, he kind of takes it to the furthest furthest extent so that way he can draw from that to teach some sort of principle. So I think it stands out. I mean, and part of it too is the hyperbole is one of those things that Jesus employs a lot. And uh we use it today. It's a device, a teaching tool. Yep. That uh when you speak with hyperbolic statements, and and you know, even Jesus talking about it's easier for you know a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to go to heaven. It's like that's almost it was almost comical. Jarring. Yeah, jarring and just absurd, yeah, over the top, but man, memorable. And so I think that that's maybe one of the reasons Jesus uses these extremes. Um so that that's possibly helpful.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Um I mean it does make the stories, as you said, vivid vivid, memorial, yeah, all of that. I was also wondering um if, like the Good Samaritan, or actually the lawyer, the expert in the law who's asking the question, who's my neighbor? Sure. Um is looking for a way either to one up Jesus or or to put Jesus in his place, but also to be like um to justify himself. So to put limits on his love, I wonder uh if some of the extremes are for that as well. We're not told that specifically, so I'm just wondering out loud because sometimes we like to think like, oh well, that doesn't apply in this extreme. You know what I mean? It's true. Jesus told us to love our neighbor, but clearly not that far. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

And so I I wonder if some of the extremes point that out too of like Christianity works in the ordinary and to the uttermost, right out to the ends of the Yeah, he he he places these things out at the margins so that way there's no room for for us to try to qualify.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

If it applies there, it all the way down. Everything between. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yep. That's a really great thought, too. Yeah, for him to put it all the way out there. Um yeah, and I and it's it's uh it's it's interesting too because I think we then when we when we understand it rightly, like the some the idea of the Samaritans and the Jews and their relationship.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

That application for us is a really that's really helpful when we understand that rightly because then we can just take it to the extreme in our context, whatever that looks like, you know. Um yeah, yeah, that's a really good thought.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

It is interesting because they it'll show up in other parables as well, as you already mentioned. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

He tends to do that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yep. He's right out when you use the extreme, it includes everything in between, as you said. Um again, going back to the first week, we looked at the you know, the lost and found, and um again, the audience that Jesus was speaking to in that context were it was two different audiences. One were the people, the renowned sinners who'd gathered nearby to listen to Jesus, to hear from him. And then you had the religious uh that were staying aloof.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

But so he tells a parable, and then there are two audiences and there's two messages.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

One for the renowned sinners along the lines of you know, God's just open arm reception of people who repent. And then to the religious, kind of like earnestly wanting their repentance because the welcome and grace is available to them as well. Sure. But there's there's one parable told to two audiences, two different messages. Yep. This week's parable is told to an expert in the law or a lawyer, uh, but uh an expert in the Old Testament Torah, the law. And so again, this parable is told to a religious man. Yes. Uh how does paying attention to the listener uh help us interpreting the story that Jesus is giving? How wh why is that important? How is that important?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah. Well, I think as a general principle, anyways, when we read the Bible, context is always really helpful, you know, especially when we look at the the gospels or the stories of Jesus, and those stories are told, and I think even the way in which they're composed, it's there there's intentionality behind understanding what's going on in those circumstances. And so generally speaking, as a principle for interpreting the Bible, it's really important to have a handle on hey, the context. And and it's not just textual, you know, what's happening before and after, but situational context, cultural context, historical. There's a lot of context in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

It's a and even in the context of the immediate context textually, you have the context of the book and the context of the Bible at large. That's a broader conversation.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

And I and I also don't want to discourage people from just reading their Bible because sometimes you go, Oh, I don't understand all those things. I'm not gonna keep reading it. Keep reading your Bible. And the more you read it, the more you just intuitively have the context in the back of your mind. You have that framework. So that that's the beauty of it. But I think the the in particular with these, Jesus is not just telling a story in a vacuum, right? There's a situation that's at play that helps us have an uh a healthy understanding of why Jesus is telling this or what his goal is in telling this. And so um for your parable that you preached on that first week, for mine this past week, for the one I'm thinking about this week, they all have circumstances that precipitated the telling of the story. And so those give us a clue into the the heart posture behind why Jesus would tell it, or the questions, or the thoughts, or the emotions. And the cool thing is all those also happen within the context of of human interaction. And so um, I just think for us it's it's it frames up our understanding of of what we should be thinking about as we're hearing the story, yeah, and how to better apply it in our own context. So that's kind of the most immediate.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I don't know if that's what you're oh no, that that that's great and very helpful and and good to be reminded of. Um, I'm also thinking along the lines of quite often we read our Bibles and we read into the gospels and we read these parables, and we immediately say, Oh, this parable's for me. Yeah. Or he's telling the story to me. Well, in a sense, yes, the Bible is written so that we might know and understand God and uh a number of things, but but to pay attention to who the listener is cues me in better to like not just immediately trying to draw a line into my life. He's speaking either to a religious person, he's speaking to a renowned sinner like a Zacchaeus, or he's speaking to his disciples. And so that's just helpful to keep in mind as we try to draw those lines into our own life.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Um, that I was thinking that that line as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Well, and I think the thing too, just as again, going back to just kind of overarching principles of of reading your Bible, you have books like the Gospels where Jesus is interacting with people. You want to understand those relationships and how that interaction is taking place. That's helpful for understanding. But then you also have books that were written to people from the past. You know, the um the Bible, all of the Bible is for me. Not all of the Bible was written immediately to me. Yeah. You know, you have Luke, who's writing to Theophilus and trying to give him this account of the life of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Always writing to Pastor Timothy.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Exactly. So you uh you you just have understanding those things helps us understand how it's for us, yeah, and and how it speaks to us and what it means for our lives in a far greater way.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

So um, yeah, and all and these parables, I mean, boy, I I probably should know this as we launch in the series. There's some something near 40 parables in the Bible, I think some people have characterized. Somewhere around there, I'm sure. But I think a pretty large number of those are connected to conversations that Jesus has that launch us into a parable. Yeah. So just helpful.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

And it's a variety of audiences, as we've already mentioned. Oh my goodness. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh just thinking uh out loud on this is you know, Jesus, you know, when you think about the four gospels and if there's 40 plus parables, uh, there's a bit of me that goes, I wish I would do that, because stories are so impactful. Oh my god. Yeah, but they don't come so easily, uh, to me, anyways, in conversation, but they're so instructive, so poignant, so part of.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

And I think the thing about it too, that's really cool. And again, we're we don't, we weren't there, so we don't know, you know, we have the what what Luke records and through the power of the spirit, you know. Uh what we need, what we need, we have what we need. Yep. We don't know how long it took for Jesus to tell those stories, but we know that our our versions it's you know, one to three minutes. And I think there's part of that too, where like with preaching, for example, they talk about the power of a story. Um stories can can illustrate in such a great way. Um but like as a preacher, you know, I I want to use stories more and use them as a tool, but but you then obviously want to explain what the story illustrates, right? And so Jesus has these just short, simple, clear stories that make you think, make you wrestle, make you walk. And I just think it's a really powerful way to communicate. So yeah, for sure. I want to do that well.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Again, thinking with you, the two parables that we've looked at so far, there's been a particular audience that Jesus has spoken into. Right. You have um irreligious people, right? Sinners, uh, you have religious people, those have been the audiences so far.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Also sinners.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah, also sinners as well. Um, and then down the line, as we look at more parables, he's you know, maybe speak to the disciples or different audiences. But um, in light of what we've heard so far and the audiences that Jesus has been speaking to, uh, I heard a preacher say uh a while back that in this world there are irreligious people, people who are not religious at all. There are religious people and then there are Christians. Oh yeah. He said irreligious, religious, and Christians. And then he went on to say that the religious people are the worst.

unknown 13:34

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Which was an interesting uh comment. So I'm curious your thoughts on that, and also connected to the audiences that Jesus is speaking into, not only in the parables that we've looked at, but just in Jesus' ministry, he encountered really bad sinners who were actually coming to him to hear him, religious people. Yeah, and then he also encountered people who became Jesus' followers who put their faith in him. So they're different audiences. The the preacher that I listened to was was largely putting the whole world in those three categories. Sure. Interesting. Uh irreligious, they just don't care about spiritual things at their present context of life, and then religious people, and that's a broad spectrum. Yeah. But I just curious your thoughts on religious, irreligious, and Christian.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Yeah, that's an interesting thought. I mean, I think the cat that category uh makes sense. Uh, part of it too is that you know, I don't know the the person that's listening to this podcast. In some circles, the word religion has a connotation to it that's very negative. You know, you frequently. I shouldn't say all the time. You know, James talks about religion that's pure and undefiled. So there's you know, the word religion can be used, can be, can be used in a really positive way. But sometimes in some circles, we use the word religion as opposed to you know having a genuine relationship with with God, for example, with Jesus, right? Faith in Christ. It's it's our activity that we try to merit righteousness, and and so you know, I think, and then some circles that's not you frequently used that way. Yeah. But for just to clarify terms, yeah, I think I think the idea there is you have you have irreligious people, uh, sinners, known sinners, yeah, um, and in the gospels, you know, a lot of these people they realize um that that their life has put them at odds with God.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Oh, yeah, or something's just amiss.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And there's something amiss. And so when they're encountering Jesus and they're having somebody who who is willing to associate with them, who is willing to extend love and grace and mercy, and he shares the news of a loving God who's willing to accept them and embrace them, that's um attractive to that group of people who encounter Jesus often in the gospels. Um obviously his disciples are people who've already repented, place their faith in Jesus, they're followers of Christ. Um and then the the term religious, you know, would be again to use it in the sense of people who are seeking to merit for themselves something before God in terms of their own righteousness.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

They don't think it this way, but I'm somehow gonna do um act and live in such a way that I'm gonna put God, whatever that God might be in their context, in their debt. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah, instead of them having a debt toward God, he owes me. Now exactly they're gonna they're gonna earn for themselves something that God will owe them, yeah, you know, in the age to come. And uh yeah, I mean it the religious being the worst, I can understand what uh what uh that guy is saying in the sense that the the challenge for the the religious person um is they the the barrier they have to Christ is the the their lack of understanding of their need for a savior.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

And I think that's where I mentioned even in my message, like it's like when the when the lawyer is approaching Jesus and he's seeking to justify himself, Jesus takes him to the law, and I think that's appropriate. Yep. It's wholly appropriate because this guy needs to understand, hey, you you you don't measure up to the standard by which you claim to. Yeah. Um and and I think Jesus is trying to bring him to a place of understanding that. And so uh those who are religious, it's tricky. Yeah, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, and I think it's interesting because as you look at the, you know, when you think about the religious being the worst, um, as that you know a preacher said, and you look at the gospels, the the most difficult audience that Jesus encountered were the deeply religious. Yep. And the rich. Oh, yeah, that as well. That's interesting too. Uh because I I think somehow we would think the opposite of like the deeply religious are just going to be congenial, gracious, you know, at least thoughtful. But as you read through the gospels, that religious audience was the received the most harshest words from Jesus uh and most um extreme communications and actions. But again, in the context, Jesus really loves them, he's pursuing them. That's the other fascinating thing. But in the context, the religious audience, as you read through the gospels, is the most challenging to Jesus Christ Himself.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Absolutely. And I think the thing too is Jesus knows what's in man's heart. Yeah, that's clear from scripture. He knows what's in someone's heart. And Jesus is wise enough, he's a good enough um uh leader, uh, where he recognizes that you know, when you're engaging with people, it's not you're not playing checkers. Not every piece moves the same. And so his response to certain people is immediate compassion. You know, it's hey, and he he heals people, and then it's it's an opportunity to engage with uh the gospel. And so he responds to certain people in certain ways, but there are other people because he knows what's in man's heart that they they need to be maybe rebuked or come to an awareness of their sin, you know. And so I think that that's but but again, the motivation behind both is love, yeah. Uh seeking for sinners to repent. Um, but it's challenging for those who think they have nothing to repent of.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah. No. Well, you you commented in your message that uh this lawyer is an expert in the law, which means he's an expert in the Old Testament law. Sure. Uh you mentioned that he has a posture of he's gonna kind of one up Jesus. He's you know, kind of presumably presumably put Jesus in his place. Sure. And it's um and if that's the case and Jesus recognizes that or acknowledges that, it's interesting that Jesus takes him to the law, right where he is an expert. Right. So he takes him to a place where he should be really comfortable. Exactly. He he would have the basis of knowledge of it. So he takes him to where he's an expert, and then from that begins to peel back, like, yeah, as you've said, you've you've we've tr transgressed this law. We've we've missed the mark on this law by the application that he gives in the story, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Well, and it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

I thought of that prior, that Jesus takes him to the place of his own comfortability.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Oh, absolutely. Well, and part of it is just so interesting, too, because again, you we talked about the extremes earlier. This guy has established a boundary in order to justify himself.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Yeah. I'm living in a boundary.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Jesus explodes the boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Intentionally, we we're not told how that parable ends in terms of where it how it lands on the individual hearing. But we also are given other examples in scripture of comparable situations where people walk away, you know, feeling downcast because it's like, oh man, they're like you know, just got crushed. Exactly. And I think again, that's done out of love, I think. But um I if I had to guess, I think that that would be the way it would be received because Jesus makes it really clear hey, these boundaries you've established to in order to justify yourself before God, these are these are not the boundaries that God has. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

That that's another interesting thought. The parable is told, and there's no conclusion to this one as well. Right. The the message lands on the lawyer, on the expert in the law. Uh Jesus expands the boundaries that he had established for himself. I'm loving my neighbor, and Jesus, like, yep, your neighbor's That's a very narrow view. Yeah. And uh and then the story ends, and you don't have a response. Sometimes responses are given in the gospels. You know, people who come to Jesus, they hear the parable and they respond. Yeah, and Jesus, you know, will say, go and send no more or whatever, you know, whatever. But this one is another one where it doesn't end. We don't know his response.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah, and I think we already talked about this, so it's it's redundant. Um, but I think that's a wonderful tool. Another tool, yeah. Absolutely, because we we're left waiting at the edge of our seat, and then it prompts us to think. And Jesus ends by saying, you know, go and do likewise, and then that's it. And then we move on to the next thing. And it's like, oh, there it is. Well, and that's a big part of that for a while. That's a big part of why I think I even told you before the message. Like, there's a whole there's a whole lot in this parable that can be unpacked and thought through. But that um that command, that imperative kind of force behind what Jesus says, that should fall on us. We should feel that weight as well. As we're in again, this is to the the lawyer, but it should prompt us to think through oh man, what does it look like to love our neighbor? What does it look like to you know, yeah, live in this way?

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Uh one of the thoughts I post the message I was thinking through is the fact that you know, in our modern world. Technology has made the world a smaller place. And and um so we're just informed on things that are happening not only in our neighborhood, but our state, our country, or in the world. And we're informed continually of what's happening. Uh any influence, how how should that influence you know, our exercise of neighbor love? Uh, because you can easily become overwhelmed with need? Yeah, for sure. Uh even ministries that contact me on the daily by way of emails. Yeah. Um, you know, so how does that influence the fact that the world is a small place? I'm aware of needs from Ethiopia to Cambodia to Saganal County.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Well, it's unique to you because historically that's that's that's more of a modern challenge for us, I would say, because you know, a hundred years ago, my context of what was going on and the challenges were were mostly probably relegated to the people who lived in my you know, 150 years ago Frank and Mooth knew Frank and Mouth. Exactly. Yeah, you and you're engaging in your neighbors in a regular rhythm. Um so I think what it does is it probably just spreads us thinner in terms of our actual ability to to engage in a substantive way where we don't have the capacity to to solve every problem around us or help every person in need. We just don't. We don't, we're we're limited. Uh we're creatures. So there's a part of that where it probably limits us, but it's at the same time, I think it also enables us to be more thoughtful about the things we do engage in, uh, who we do connect with, uh, the ways in which we can make the greatest impact with the resources we have. The ways we can actually help. Yep, or even you know, my hope would be even that it would just foster a greater sense of prayer because I think for for us, prayer is far more um manageable. You know, I might not be able to help every person who has a need, you know. I I read on Facebook when someone's diagnosed with uh cancer, whatever it is. Um you you could see five of those a day depending on how many friends you have on Facebook, right? So it's like my ability to even say, Hey, I'm gonna take that to the Lord, um, maybe is that that becomes a little more of a regular thing for us too.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Uh or even just reaching out, hey, you know, praying for you, hope things are going well. Just opportunities to make those smaller touches. Yeah. Maybe or a practical way we can do that, but we can we can't help everybody, and so we are limited and makes it challenging.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

So the yeah, it just makes me think along the lines of the parable of the Good Samaritan and helping he helps the man who's in need and who's right in front of him, who's right in his proximity. And I and that proximity has been helpful for me because I can get an email regularly, a daily email from Voice of the Martyrs, where I have brothers and sisters in Christ around the world uh suffering a variety of things. Right. And uh and I may choose to contribute to that as a ministry on a on a regular basis just to help their ongoing needs. But my actual engagement in helping my neighbor is going to be in my proximity, the people that God puts in my path. That's really good. And uh so that's that's helpful because I don't want to be, nor do I want others to be overburdened by people they should not be overburdened with because they're they're not in their immediate proximity.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

I think that that's a really good that's a really good thought because we we can be so it's two there's two ways.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

I I I I encounter people who get like just overwhelmed, like and almost like crushed with the burden of global need that they're just living in the state of like overwhelmed. On the other hand, I don't want to be uh calloused, I don't want to be so aware of overwhelming need around the world that I'm just like I can't do anything. So I I stop doing anything. You know what I mean? They're the extremes for you again.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah, there's a great balance. But that's a good thought. And I think uh obviously uh God has positioned us as human beings, you know, spatially. We we uh live in a digital world, but we're still bodily creatures, you know. So I think part of it is it's a whole bigger conversation about the level to which our culture has changed and we've we've moved relationships, you know, now online. And I think there's a sense in which there might be a reorientation of thinking through what it really means to engage with our neighbors.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

It's part of a probably a larger conversation, but I think that's a good word. Uh you're we we own we are because we're limited, it's really important that the people who are in close proximity to us are the people who probably receive the lion's share of our ought to.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

You know.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, it's just interesting. That's a great thought.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Good question. You landed your message. Your big idea was be the neighbor Jesus has been to you. And again, that's connected to the gospel. Jesus has been the ultimate neighbor to us. And and so be the neighbor that Jesus has been to you. Yeah. My response to that big idea was first of all, that's conviction. Yes. It's convicting because we haven't been the neighbor that Jesus has been to us.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

So, like it fell on the lawyer, it falls on us, like, oh, we've missed that mark. Uh, we have not been the neighbor we should be. Um, so it's convicting when you say, be the neighbor Jesus has been to you. I'm like, yeah, I haven't done that. Um it's also comforting because again, that connects us to the gospel. Jesus was the ultimate good Samaritan, he was the ultimate good neighbor, met our need, uh, found us in our wounded, broken condition, and and has healed us, rescued us. So it's convicting, it's it's comforting, but then it's also challenging because when we come to faith in Jesus Christ, we're joined to him in a vital union. He begins by his spirit to work in us, conforming us into his likeness, into his character. It begins to be produced in us. And so convicting, comforting, challenging, yeah. Uh the questions uh I want to interact with is you know, can we be the neighbor that Jesus has been to us? And how do we begin to be the neighbor that Jesus has been to us? Just you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

One of the things I'll um just to start, part of that uh statement, you know, to the big idea statement try to distill a little bit is we tend to this is just the natural thing. We tend to put ourselves in the situations where in the story we make ourselves the hero of the story. That's just a tendency.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

It's that's the the typical David and Goliath. It's like, hey, which which giants are you overcoming this week? And it's like, well, we're we're Israel, who's needs a savior, and Jesus is the greater David, right? So I do think because Jesus says go and do likewise, we're to put ourselves in the shoes of of the Samaritan to some level. Yeah. So we're we're to be neighborly. That's certainly that's a part of it. Well, in Christ we now can. Exactly. But part of it too is is the the be the neighbor Christ has been to you reminds us that oh, we we we were also the person who's on the road, right? So it's in that statement, it's like I think part of it is the understanding of of because of what Christ because Christ was neighborly to us, um, and because now we've been redeemed unto himself and transformed um and through God's Christ's redemptive work in our life, we're new creatures. Yeah, yeah, we we now have been brought into a new kind of life in Christ, and so it enables it, it frees us to live in a new kind of way that that's that's completely impossible. It's impossible before it was impossible. Yeah, we didn't have the capacity to um to live. You know, that that's that would be a crushing thing apart from the work of the spirit in our life and God's saving work in our lives. At the same time, part of just understanding the doctrine of salvation, we we're still in a fallen world, we still have you know this old this flesh, this body of flesh that we still deal with. We're we're never gonna be the perfect neighbor that we need to be on this side of glory, I don't think. We're gonna we're gonna fall short of that. But at the same time, our our quick growth and conformity to Christ enables us to to be chiseling away at those things that were connected to that old way of life. We can begin to release ourselves from the bitterness toward our neighbors. And for you know, that's part of where I was trying to lean into. Um, we should pursue this as the ideal, and we have opportunities to be those neighbors um that Christ commands us to be.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Never perfectly, but by God's grace, we're He's Lord willing, making us more and more like that good Samaritan Jesus, you know, who was was to us.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

So I think I've mentioned this here before, either on the podcast or in a sermon, uh, particular theologian as he related to our sanctification, our growth in Christ. And um he talked about the fact that when we're born anew, born again, born of the spirit, brought into union with Jesus Christ, we're uh we come in as infants. We're born anew, so it's a a new birth experience. And so we we mature in that relationship, and and God matures us in that relationship. But he uses the term and it applies to children. Children learn things by playing, right? You know, they play with things and they learn how things work and how things fit and and come together. And so uh there's a bit of be the neighbor that Jesus has been to you. Well, we know the neighbor that Jesus has been to us, he's he's the perfect neighbor, he's the ultimate Good Samaritan. And now it's like, oh, do that. We can begin to play with it. I like that. You know, we can just begin to play with that, experiment with that. What does it look like for me to be neighborly to the people in my proximity? Not necessarily the next door neighbor geographically, but the people who are in my proximity. And uh, I I've I resonated with that. It's so helpful to like play with it, figure it out, just play around with it. You're not gonna you're gonna make some mistakes, you're gonna do something that you think is really neighborly and it's not gonna be well received. And you're like, oh, I don't I don't do that again. But then there may be uh ways in which you can be neighborly that you play with and learn. And like well, that's the thing too about sanctification. And also being neighborly to different people, different personalities. Absolutely. That's fascinating. So play with it.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

And I'm sure we yeah, that's the uh we'll probably get into some of that maybe with some of the more questions you have, but that's the thing about sanctification that's just so interesting is that sometimes we can go to one side of the extreme with our sanctification. It's like, you know, I I need to do the work of making sure and and there is work to be done in our sanctification, or I'm gonna sit back and let Jesus transform me. And it's like, no, the sanctification is both passive and active. You know, it's God is doing a work in me and through me and enable me. He's in the spirit is at work in me, prompting me, encouraging me, convicting me. Yeah, but I'm I'm to be active in my sanctification. I'm to be to be engaged and working. Um, you know, so putting putting it into practice, playing. Put into practice, playing. That's great. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I'm having a funny story come to my mind as I'm thinking of this. In my neighborhood, my geographic neighborhood, uh, I walk to work, as you know, walk to work every day.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

And uh I I have a neighbor in my proximity, in my neighborhood, who has a flagpole in their front yard. Yep. And on the flagpole they have an American flag. Yep. And then right below that American flag, they have, you know, one of your favorite places. They have a flag of Michigan State University.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Oh, there you go. Yeah, there you go. State fans. Uh they're they're they must be wonderful people.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

But all winter long, this has been a cold and windy winter. All winter long, I've watched the Michigan state flag diminish in size. Somehow there must have been a thread that was loose, and it literally is shrinking. So it's gone from a full state flag to now it's down to about a quarter of the state flag. Most of the Spartan head is now missing. Oh my goodness. And so I've been I've been thinking like, oh, I just ought to buy that guy a flag. But I don't know how that would be received. You know, I don't know that they'd be like, you know, pay attention to your own flag, you know. Or you might be like, hey, thanks for the great gift. Yeah. But that's part of just you know, how do you how do you serve people well? And you you learn things.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Exactly. Yeah, I recently had uh uh I don't want to get into the particulars of whether, but I had an experience with a neighbor that was a really cool they were in need of something, and so it was just like a chance to to help them out. I mean, they actually reached out to me about that this need and then in return, completely un you know, unsolicited, they did something for me. I was like, oh man, it's really cool. But like that's uh it's an opportunity. I think um it's funny because all that happened in the context of me prepping for this message. Oh the opportunities that we have around us are plentiful, they just really are, and I think it's part of it is just that awareness of like, hey, what does it look like to just love the people in our proximity? Love the people that we um live next door, insofar as we have interactions with them, you know. The the unique thing about this is you might not sound like you probably don't know who that neighbor is.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, right. So it'd be a little strange coming to the door, like here's a new flag for you.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

So there's part of that where where your neighbor, you know, and Jesus made it really clear that every you know your neighbor includes everyone. Optimally, your neighbor are is somebody that you know well enough to know that they'd like the flag, right? So at some point, you know, maybe that's uh something to do. But yeah. Anyways.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

In the good Samaritan. Yes. The the priest and the Levite pass by on the road, right? They don't help the man for whatever reasons not given in the story. Don't need to know. But the Samaritan does stop and help the needy man.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Um, took care of him, met his immediate needs, yeah, got him on his horse, gets him to an end, pays the fare for like take care of this guy.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Um, but then he also went on his way. Which is we never we never lean into that part of the story at all. Right. At least I haven't historically. And uh, you know, so he he helps his immediate needs, sets him up for the care that he needs in the immediate, but then goes and says, I'll I'll be back to settle accounts, basically. You know, I'll come back and if you're there's more, you know, I'll I'll pay it.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Uh but I I found that interesting. Is there anything we might learn from that?

SPEAKER_00 35:18

That's a really great question.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

My goodness. Um Well, maybe I obviously like the Samaritan was traveling. He was going somewhere, so he had a purpose. This interrupted the purpose.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yes, and this was a strange these were strangers, right? So obviously, like he these are great example of helping people you don't know. But I think maybe one of the things that could here's maybe a good way to think about it. Um we're we're gonna now live in the area where we're gonna have some creative liberty and we're gonna think through things that we don't know because this is a story Jesus told with no yeah. Um the Samaritan probably had a business partner who also was his neighbor, and had a wife who was his neighbor and kids. He's going to Jericho for some purpose. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

The point in that is uh He's either going on business or picking up groceries at all these for his whatever. Right, whatever it is. He had a purpose, he was going there in purpose.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yep. That that also demanded their attention the attention.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

So I think part of it is there is a sense in which um our loving of neighbor um needs to needs to be thought through in such a way where where it also enables us to not be so it goes back to what we talked about earlier, so bogged down by the needs of that neighbor that we neglect the other areas of life that that need attending to. Yeah. I don't know. So it just and and interesting about that, he delegates some of the responsibility of care to the innkeeper whose job includes making sure people are well housed. Yeah, yeah. So there's a maybe maybe that's a maybe I'm overthinking it now at this point, but there's a part in which he he helps the guy, he goes over and above. He's super generous. But I would presume that he's not neglecting the responsibilities he has, and he's also delegating some of the care to something that's more sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And set up for that.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

And set up for that.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

So yeah, and I'm yeah, I don't know if you have a thought outside of that. I'm just kind of stripballing here in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

That's kind of where my mind was going. Uh, it is it is interesting that's that's part of the story.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Um if we're yeah, if we're so benevolent that we we create problems for another neighbor for another neighbor, I think that we need to reevaluate how we're doing that. And then maybe it means we need to put them in a situation where there's something more sustainable.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I hadn't thought of that too. That's a good point. Along the lines of I might get engaged in helping a neighbor and in that process immediately recognize John Doe can actually help this neighbor better than I can. And then there's a bit of humility to be like the real care you need. The real care this guy needed was an innkeeper who could watch him for the next few days. Yeah. And so there might be humility not only in loving the neighbor and loving the neighbor in the extreme, uh, the ones that are in my proximity, but also recognizing the care that's needed here goes beyond me. I can still engage in that. Like the the Samaritan paid a fare to be like, take care of this guy, but obviously wasn't able to stay at his bedside for the next two, three days. So it's interesting. Just an interesting thought.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

It's making me think a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Good. Uh hopefully it's making our listeners think a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

How long have you been a pastor?

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Oh, goodness. It's been a long time. I was Oh, I was six years as a youth pastor, a year as an associate, and then twenty-seven as a senior. Okay. So thirty years. A good run. A good run. More than thirty years.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

So you part of your role, certainly probably self-viewed, but even externally viewed, is caring for people.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

You know, that's that's a challenge as someone in ministry. The needs are plentiful. Oh, more than you can handle. And the capacity you have as an individual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Praise God for the body of Christ. Thank God for the body of Christ. That's great. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You uh pastorally, you encounter more needs than you could ever handle. Correct. And uh you could go to bed, or you do go to bed every night, a little bit of um of ministerial guilt, like, oh man, there's just more needs to meet than I can meet. Sure. But thank God for the body of Christ, because they're the body meets the needs of the body as God intended it to be. And he places people within the body for that purpose, not only for caring for one another, but exhorting one another, building one other up, serving alongside one.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

And even because the body is a relational entity. We we are part of one another at the same time, yeah, but we exist in relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Those who are in close proximity within the body also have maybe more of an opportunity to engage in a more substantive way because they have that established relationship, which is really crazy.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

Absolutely. I I appreciate um the groups model we have here.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Correct, community groups.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Get people connected both in serve groups, community groups, because those are gonna become neighbors and good neighbors, um growing neighbors, maturing neighbors. But um in that kind of context, you will receive better care than you might receive pastoral care in a church this size. Some of that pastoral care is gonna be administrated within the context of those communities. Exactly. Whether it's a community group or a serve group or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

We've got a uh prayer team which just does a phenomenal job of communicating and connecting with people who are in need and praying and interceding. Yeah, just awesome.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah. Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Great.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Uh yeah, I think I'm gonna go all the way back to the beginning of your message. You you shared an illustration of the fact that when you were a little kid you weren't all that great of a neighbor. You and you had stories about bricks and smoke bombs and stuff like that. And uh so I was, you know, has Jesus made you a good neighbor? Fortunately, have you matured any?

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Fortunately, I've not lit any smoke bombs in my neighbor's uh garage or anything lately, so that's good. Throwing bricks in your neighbor's yard. I've not done that lately. Yeah. Part of Yeah, it's funny because those are maybe even some of the extreme examples I can think of as a kid of doing things, you know. I I was a normal kid probably for the most part, but kids just do silly things like that. And I had older neighbors who didn't appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

It's amazing with little kids, like you there's times where you watch them and you're just like, What are you doing? And what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Why are you doing that?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

And so let's talk about Christians who do that when they're new baby believers. Just like, oh, what are you what are you doing? But keep playing, keep playing with it, figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Yeah, yeah. You know, by God's grace, I think uh I'm growing to be a better neighbor. Um, but at the same time, I have a ways to go.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

At least I have a ways to go.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

I for sure do. And um yeah, and I think you mentioned earlier, I think it's a good, that's a good there's an extreme. We can go over and above caring so much for those neighbors that we neglect the other things, and then we can we can go you know the other extreme and just not really care.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I can't I can't help in every case, so I'm not gonna help at all.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Exactly. I probably need to find a better balance in that. I I probably could do more helping, if I'm being honest than I do. I probably I'm probably on the side of the spectrum where sometimes maybe just overwhelmed by everything going on that it's like I'm maybe too selective. You know, maybe I could be a little more but um yeah, by God's grace, I think uh he's working on my life in this area. And neighbor again, because it's not defined by I don't we don't put boundaries around that. Oh, yeah. That's where it gets really unique too, because loving your neighbor is loving the anointing people in our life.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Yeah, that's probably the last place I was gonna go in this conversation. Um, you know, loving your neighbor and Jesus blows the boundaries off, you know. Um because again, you were talking about the expert in the law, his neighbors were the his Jewish right peers and companions, and and Jesus uses the extreme example of a Samaritan who's neighborly. Um and so um the categories are expanded. You know, loving your neighbor is is having a posture and attitude and a practice of loving the people um in your proximity, your vicinity. Um, but it also in our context, in our world in which we live, that literally may not be your geographic neighbor. Exactly. You know, I I talked about the neighborhood I live in, and I'm getting to meet some of my immediate proximity neighbors, my next door neighbors. I I met a neighbor last week that I hadn't met over the winter, and yeah, yeah. So I'm I'm meeting neighbors. But um we may have um a number of neighbors in our life that aren't our geographic next door neighbor. Yeah. Uh co-workers, co-coaches, people you do softball with, people you do little league coaching with, or soccer, um, school, you know, co coworkers. That your neighbor is not defined by sure next door.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

That's a good thought. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that that's To use the example that Jesus uses, it's uh particularly challenging for us when we have regular engagement with people who maybe there's a kind of a world of difference between whether it's political persuasions or whether it's whatever. Uh you know, could be a a host of different things. But um but that can be in particularly a a challenging situation when there's when when we would naturally be at odds with our our neighbor or something.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Yeah.

unknown 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Well good. I yeah. The the last thought we'll leave with is the uh the fact of again going circling all the way back to Jesus was the ultimate good neighbor, he was the ultimate good Samaritan makes you think through Philippians 2, humbled himself, left the glories of heaven, came down to earth to serve our greatest need, to meet our needs, considering our needs and and met them. And uh so for me, um just the desire to uh grow in humility, which means just growing in a in a realm of self-forgetfulness and focusing on others. And if if Jesus lived that way and lived the ultimate life, um that's that's best. It's just best, it's the way we were designed. It's it's conforming us to the image of Jesus Christ is considering the needs of others and serving them.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Yeah, and as Paul is giving that Christ him, you know, he precedes that by saying, Have this mind in you, which is also in Christ Jesus. Yeah. You know, and it's it's that's part of it. It's like, hey, this is who Christ is. Having to the gospel we can. Exactly. So now put into practice, as you said, the the things that Christ has mu already done.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Yeah, add to your faith these virtues.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah, humility, love, brotherly kindness. Yeah, good, real good. Hey, uh, real quick before we run, uh, where are we heading Sunday? We've we're still we're in the midst now. This we'd cross the halfway point. This is a five-week series, so this will be uh parable number three. Where where are we going Sunday? Uh passage in in parable.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

So wonderful question. I think I told you yesterday that I was I actually was debating, you know. So for the for the podcast listener, this is Wednesday morning. Yeah. So at least in my rhythm and world, if I don't know what I'm gonna do by Tuesday night, I'm usually in a heap of trouble. A little stressed. I had mapped out this series a long time ago and I had put some parables in there, and as I've gotten closer, I've I have the freedom, I feel like, a little bit to say, hey, do we actually want to do this parable?

SPEAKER_01 46:12

There's 40-ish parables to do this.

SPEAKER_00 46:13

But you want to pick a different one. Um, so as of last night, I kind of made an executive decision, and we're I'm doing the rich fool from Luke 12. So we're still in that whole kind of same section of Luke's gospel. So you started with Luke 15, I moved to Luke 10, now we're in Luke 12. Yeah. So again, this is a parable that has some context related to uh conversation that Jesus is having with someone. So there's some similar things there. It's also a very simple story, cool story. Um I I don't think it's gonna be overly complex in terms of understanding what the story is about, um, but it's a good one. Yeah, I like it. I like it too.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

It begins, and I won't read the parable because I will leave it to the listener to read. It's Luke 12, but it begins with someone in the crowd said to him. So there's our starts the context. We summon a someone in the crowd. There's there's a crowd around Jesus, and someone raises their hand if you will speaks out, and Jesus tells them a story.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Exactly, which is really cool.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yep, excellent. I'm looking forward to Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

I am as well. Yeah. Hopefully it all comes together, unless I'm like I'm sure it will. Okay. Otherwise, I'm like, you know him to call, Mark. I'm not ready for Sunday. What do you got? I've got nothing.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

So that's very good.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Well, this has been a great conversation, always enjoyable.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah. Well, hey, everybody, thanks for listening. We appreciate you tuning in. And uh once again, we hope to see you next week.