After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 31: "The Parable of the Sower"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 31

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Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday - May 24, 2026

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to After the Amen. I'm Joe. I'm joined by Pastor Mark. And uh this is the podcast segment here at Frankenmouth Bible Church, where what we do is we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And uh so today again we're talking about another message from this past Sunday in the parable series. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How are you doing, Mark? I'm doing better this morning than last night. What happened last night? You want to hear a crazy story? Oh, I would love to hear a couple of stories.

SPEAKER_02

We got a minute for it. Sure.

SPEAKER_01

Um Lynn and I are going on a short bike trip next week, a few days, bike riding. We haven't done we haven't done a lot of biking since we've been in Frankenmooth.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So we thought we'd better get our bikes down and get some wheels on the road for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

So last night we go biking. I do a little 20-mile trip. We bike the trail from Millington.

SPEAKER_03

That's a little trip, by the way. Yeah, it's just enjoyable.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. We bike the trail from Millington down to Columbiaville. So it's just 10 miles out, 10 miles back. And uh we've rode the trail before, it's beautiful. Have you ever rode that trail?

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man. Take your family down there. It's nice. Anyways, we're out biking and uh we're biking along and down the trail in front of us, way out there, we see there's uh a family of geese. Okay wild Canadian geese. So a mom and a dad and four little ones. Yep. So we've, as you might imagine, as bikers, we've encountered every animal encounter that you might imagine. So we see geese way down the road. So we we start hollering just to let them know that we're there and they're we're coming. Normally they just kind of wander off the path. Well, these wander off a little bit, but not far, and we're like, well, we're just gonna bike on past them. I'm gonna go around to the left. They walk off to the right. As we get closer on our bikes, the one goose puts its head down, starts hissing. You've seen them do this, yeah. Puts his head down, starts hissing, starts running at us. Seriously. Six feet away, it's running at me, takes flight. I have enough time to duck my head, and this wild goose drills me in the helmet. No way. Dead serious. I've never been hit by a goose on a bike before. Okay. So I have to stop, as you might imagine. Is the goose okay? Oh, the goose flies right back to the ground, and the other goose that was there, the the mama, puts her head down and is running at me as well. So now I have two wild geese coming at me. I have to fend them off of the bike. Lynn is behind me. Oh no. Thinks it's the funniest thing ever, as you might imagine.

SPEAKER_03

So did she get video?

SPEAKER_01

No, she did not get video, which I'm so so grateful for.

SPEAKER_03

Because I would love to see that video.

SPEAKER_01

So, anyways, that was our last night story. Absolutely crazy, crazy little ride. Attacked by geese, attacked by wild geese. So I'm doing better this morning than last night. It was wild. Wow. We were three miles in and uh they were in the way, and we we pressed them back into the abyss where they came from, and they're they're that's a fun story. It was wild, absolutely wild. We've had all sorts of animal encounters on bikes, but this yeah, this is an unusual one.

SPEAKER_03

Um, have you had aggressive animal encounters?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, mostly dogs, right? That's what that's what bikers encounter is mostly dogs. Dogs, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, geese. But not geese. Yeah, normally they just kind of wander off the side of the path, but this one, as I got closer, they're like, nope, he's going down. Interesting. Yeah. Anyways, I'm doing great this morning.

SPEAKER_03

Speaking of dogs, our last night endeavor, uh kind of late. So our dog has a doodle. It's a burma doodle. Yeah. So it's one of those, you know, Burmese mountain dog poodle. Yeah. You know, fancy kind of cute looking dogs. Well, it it it's the time of year where it's a little matted. So we work we had cut some of some of the some of the mats out and realized that it looked terrible. So then we just kept cutting.

SPEAKER_01

Oh no. Now, now a really cute yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Now a really cute doodle looks we've been calling it a junkyard dog for the last uh looks pretty rough. Yeah, last eight, eight to ten hours.

SPEAKER_01

He well ignoring you entirely. Like you've wrecked my life.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know if it's the haircut or just his demeanor, but either way.

SPEAKER_01

But we're way off track. We are. We we were supposed to talk about Sunday sermon and that we're in a parable series. Yes. Uh this past Sunday you led us into the familiar parable of the soils. Yep. Matthew chapter 13. Correct. Um, interestingly, that same parable is repeated in Mark and Luke. Yes. Anything you want to comment about that? Not not every parable makes every gospel, and this one makes it in three of the synoptics. Should we is there much we should take from that, or not really? Well, I think there's others that are repeated.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So I mentioned before they're synoptic uh gospels. So obviously Matthew, Mark, and Luke um have a lot of similarities and share some material. I think one of the things that's kind of interesting about this one, there's a part of it. Well, you launched the series. Yeah. There's a part of it where this might have been a good one to launch in, also because it's a little bit of um what's the word? It's like uh it's the parable that includes the commentary on parables. Does that make sense? So what's interesting about that is all three accounts have some additional details on on why Jesus teaches in parables, and so that's kind of unique. So it's a little bit like a kind of um um a key parable for that purpose, yeah. Because it's um and they even sandwich it between the the story and then the interpretation, which is interesting. So that's cool. Um I I also would just say it's probably significant, it's probably important one if it's in all three. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, yeah, it does have some. No, I just say uh that very thought that it's that it is repeated. So clearly this would have been a part of even first century preaching. Yeah, you have the gospel writers, and this is very familiar to them, and so it makes it in all the synoptic gospels. So some familiarity, uh, it's repeated, makes you know, highlights the importance of both the my my parable, not all of the parables, but this this one as well uh has the words in it, he who has ears, let him hear. Yes, and uh so we're gonna talk about that a little bit. Sure. Yeah, anyways. In the message that you kicked off the message and you were um uh speaking about the fact that there's a particular someone in your life who at times informs you are not always the best listener. Yep. And um, an anonymous person uh might be speaking to you and you're you're hearing, but you're not really listening. Yes. Another funny story on that one.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um Lynn has a story that she tells to our children. We were traveling together in the car, just the two of us, going down the road, we're engaged in conversation. Uh Lynn's talking to me. At some point, she notices I've checked out of the conversation. You know, how do they how do they know that that's happening? They're intuitive. Yes. And so we're we're going down the road, we're in this conversation. In the midst of the conversation, she notices I checked out. And so in the middle of her sentence, she goes, and then my pants started on fire, and then she just kept going. And she knows I'm not listening because I don't respond to that. Right. So that's the story she tells her kids, whether that's true or not. But that's Lynn's a trustworthy source. I can imagine. I tend to side with Lynn on that one. Uh the question is, you know, why why is it hard uh for us to listen? What what hinders our listening?

SPEAKER_03

Oh man, that's a really good question. There's probably a lot of things, I think, in terms of just life that hinder our listening. Maybe one would be uh I think people are tend to be self-centered by nature. So I think we tend to like to talk more than we like to listen. Yeah. So sometimes for people, they're waiting for the other person's lips to stop moving so they can say what they want to say.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That could be part of it. Could be some arrogance or self-centeredness. For sure. It's also um, well, I mean, uh there's a fatigue. I don't know how to do it. Oh, interesting. I think listening requires an attentiveness and you prolonged attentiveness. Yeah, and you have to exert some energy. And I think sometimes in life, the fatigue of um busyness and all the things around you, and noise, and you know, I think there are times where people just check out because they're fatigued. Yeah. Um I'm done with this conversation, and you're not done yet. Yeah. Well, and the other thing too again, um me not naming my source of the accusation. Sometimes the people that we're closest to, we tend to um it's familiarity. Yeah, so familiar, you're comfortable. Uh we can be maybe you already know where the conversation's going. And we can also be the best of those people and the worst of those people. And so I think probably some of our some of our lack of listening, some of our poorest listening is probably uh allocated to the people who are closest to us. I don't know. Yeah. I'm sure that that's part of it too. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you started this with that illustration. Sure. Talking about the fact that how we can hear but not always listen. And uh and we we don't make good listeners, whether that's connected to pride or arrogance or fatigue, uh, whatever that might be. You connected that illustration of not listening with the words of Jesus in the parable where Jesus says, He who has ears, let him hear.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And the and the point you made right literally in your introduction, right at the beginning of your sermon, was we need to listen to Jesus. Yeah. And um, which is true, uh, and we'll talk about that for a moment. But how how do we know if we're really listening to Jesus? Yeah. You know, he he he speaks to us and he speaks to us in this word, but how do we know we're really listening?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well how does Allie know if you're listening or not? How does Lynn know if I'm listening to the car or not?

SPEAKER_03

But well, I think again, the listening that you there's a there's there's communication taking place. And so I think the response, the the reception of it should either lead us toward action or toward some there, there's some intended goal behind the messages being communicated. I think the difference would be we can hear words, and that was part of my illustration throughout the message. You can you can hear and even to some level have a baseline understanding of what Jesus is saying, but if you're not putting into practice the things he's telling you and you're not responding rightly to what he's communicating, I think that that's that's kind of the telltale sign that you're you're you're hearing in a sense, but you're not truly listening. You're not truly hearing.

SPEAKER_01

You don't have ears to hear. Yeah, when you're listening, there is a particular response. Yep. You can hear without any response. But listening demands a particular response.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And so that's that's so if we know we're listening to Jesus because we're now responding to him.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yeah, there's a yeah. I'm well, I was thinking of a uh subject matter that gets really Well, it just makes me think, and maybe this will come up even later in our conversation.

SPEAKER_01

It makes me think of I think it was C. S. Lewis that said if Jesus is who he claims to be, then he's of utmost of importance.

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

If he's not who he claims to be, then he's irrelevant entirely. So there's no kind of middle ground response to Jesus. So if we're listening to Jesus and hearing what he says, particularly hearing what he says about himself, it it demands a response.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. I th there's um I won't get into the weeds with it. But uh through uh it might have been seminary or bible school, we uh we had to engage in speech act theory stuff. You know, so if you're familiar with that a little bit, and so I'll let people kind of look that up. But but there there is a a force behind what's being communicated from the Word of God and from Jesus that has an intent to it. And so it's possible to hear the utterance, so to speak, but not actually to have the the intent of what's being communicated land in a way that has any impact. So, you know, hearing in particular the words of Jesus or hearing the gospel should should have a impact on our life, change us or the message itself is powerful, it's powerful, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's dynamic, it's powerful, it's living, it demands a response.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Uh a non-response is in itself a response. Right. All of that. Yeah, exactly. Well, you you talked about the fact that we need to listen to Jesus, which is which is true. Uh in the Bible, Jesus is called the Word of God. Yeah. You know, John 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was, you know, made flesh and dwelt among us. And so Jesus is called the Word of God. Hebrews 1 uh talks about that as well, Jesus being God's definitive and final word. Yes. It says long ago at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he's spoken to us by his son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, and it goes on. Yeah, and so God has spoken definitively and fully uh through his son Jesus Christ, he's God's communication to us. How should that reality influence our listening? Just that that truth.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's well, I think that's really huge. Um because because I think part of it is is is there is um there is the sense, well, even in that Hebrews passage, there's like a kind of an implicit almost section to that where it's like in the past, God spoke at various times in various ways to our fathers, the prophets. But in these last days, you know, it it doesn't say this verbatim, but I think the what it's implying is that in these last days, he's spoken definitively one time, one way, through his son, right? To us, yeah, through his son. And so Jesus is the the final word um and the authoritative definitive word that that uh we should center our lives on. And so I think for us in terms of just God's communication, he he he speaks to us through his son. Um the revelation of of his son is scripture, he speaks through his word, and so for us that is the final source uh authority uh word that we should take in terms of uh life, godliness. Yeah, um it it also I think is a safeguard for us for listening to new voices or new revelations about what someone might claim to be some sort of authoritative source of truth from God. Um I would I would distance myself from that.

SPEAKER_01

Pastor Joe, I have a word from the Lord for you. Yes, a new word. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I would say he his word is sufficient. Oh it's enough and it's final. And so it's for me, that's that's I think what I would center my life on and my my faith, my understanding. You know, God has spoken.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Even even in the biblical narrative itself, as we read through the Bible, we realize that God has spoken in creation. Creation is relabatory, he's spoken in our conscience. Yes, uh, he's spoken throughout history, and so he he is spoken, but this is like he's he's spoken through his son, and this is as you're as you're describing it. This is a definitive final word. There's not another word coming. This is we don't have to wait for any other word to come, right? Yeah, it is sufficient and and uh awesome. Yeah, good stuff. Uh uh diving into the parable, uh, you know, in Matthew 13, Jesus tells a parable about a sower sowing seed, which we get a picture of a gardener, you know, planting a garden space. And according to the parable, which we'll dive into in a moment, uh the seed that's being sown falls on different kinds of soil, falls on the path, falls on the rocky ground, falls on the thorny ground, and and then uh falls on soil that has been prepared, and it's good soil and produces a harvest. I find it interesting as we're listening to this, it's a familiar parable, but we're not first century sowers. Right. We're not first century gardeners. No. We're 2,000 years removed from that. Sure. But yet when we listen to the parable, we don't have any problem imaging this, imagining this. We can we can see it. And and I'm thinking this is just remarkable because Jesus' parables, the stories that he tells, we can connect with, we can listen to, we can, we can visualize it, we can get pulled into it. And I'm thinking, man, in our preaching today, we we look for good illustrative material that connects the truth to the to the listener.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And uh so often our pair our our parables, our illustrations are very time-bound, very limited. But Jesus' stories are just like this one timeless. Yeah, timeless, eternal. What I mean, what what it falls on me as incredible. Does it fall on you that way?

SPEAKER_03

It's incredible. It's actually the the irony of it. I actually did not connect the dots until just now. But on Sunday afternoon, I was slated to help plant the garden. Oh, okay. Plant, you know, uh pumpkins, things like that. Yeah. Because of the weather, uh, some family started that before, you know, like they started that earlier in the the Sunday, the the afternoon. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I'm obviously earlier than you could arrive.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

So you weren't dragging your feet because you didn't want to plant a garden, was it? Yeah, so it's preaching, right?

SPEAKER_03

But it's preaching about a sower, which is interesting. Uh the irony there. Yeah. But uh the conditions matter, like of your planting. And it's like um, even a city kid like me can resonate with, you know, we all the the illustrations of Jesus are just um so vivid and so incredible and so relevant, and like you mentioned, timeless. But it's like even in my own our own context today, these are things that we resonate with today. And it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So today, if we're preaching and we're talking about AI or Google 200 years from now, it may or may not resonate. Exactly. Probably won't. The one about listening may that may be a timeless uh that's that's the human condition. Yeah, it's like, yeah, no, if we're not good listeners, that was. Husbands will still be bad listeners, yeah, yeah. But anyways, Jesus just tells a variety of parables, yeah. And when you when you hear them, you can you literally get pulled into it and you can visualize it, and uh, it's it's remarkable. Uh Jesus' parables, and this one in particular, while they're not difficult to listen to and learn from, according to this parable, we are blessed. Says that in the text, we're blessed because Jesus actually provides the interpretation of the parable. So he tells the story, and then in this one, he doesn't do it in all of them. He actually tells this is the straight line, this is what I'm actually saying. And uh, according to Jesus, the sower is sowing the word of God. Yes, he's sowing word of the kingdom, so he's spreading the gospel. Correct. So we can we can we can envision that. Um boy, any you you you said this in the message, but any short, concise definition of the gospel, because you have a sower sowing the gospel, sowing the message. Any short definition of the gospel?

SPEAKER_03

A short definition of the gospel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's John 3.16 is a short definitive one, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, there, yeah, that's a good one. We're actually, well, it's interesting you mentioned that because I'm gonna begin to think through that because we got a series coming up where we're gonna hit some of those key verses. Yeah, for God so loved the world, He gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Uh what they would say in certain Christian circles, that's kind of a narrow perspective of the gospel, but it's true. It's the message of salvation.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, the message of salvation of God sending a son, providing salvation, the redemptive work of Jesus through his death, burial, and resurrection, yeah, and faith in him, which is uh how we are saved. And so I think that's a very short definition. Um, but that message and various iterations of it, obviously you can expand upon that and make that much longer globally.

SPEAKER_01

Um cosmically.

SPEAKER_03

Cosmically, it is a cosmic message, absolutely, yeah. And I mean, even I talked a little bit about the kingdom and the king, and you know, there's that that message as well. Jesus went and proclaimed the good news of the kingdom.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So um, yeah, that would be the gospel message. And what's interesting is the sower, you know, ultimately, um, this comes from the Lord, this gospel message, but but I think by extension, the church, you know, believers, we are also going out and sowing this, these messages of the gospel to those.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So one of the succinct messages or communications of the gospel comes to mind is the I think it's 2 Timothy chapter one, where Paul writes and he talks about the uh the glory of the happy God who is mercifully saving sinners unto himself through the powerful work of Jesus. So here is Jesus telling a parable about the sower sowing the gospel, sowing the message. Yeah. And Jesus comes with the message of the kingdom of God, right? That that's his his primary message. Right. Uh so, anyways, the the sower is spreading the gospel. According to the parable, there are various responses to the message that's being sown. For some, there's a lack of understanding resulting in nothing's gained. So that's the path, right? This the seed is sown, the gospel is spread, there's not an understanding, what's been sown is taken away. Uh, for some, there's a lack of seriousness or maybe a prolonged attentiveness to the message, resulting in no perseverance, no endurance. Uh, for some, there's a lack of commitment or prolonged commitment resulting in the pursuit of various distractions. Yes. Whether it's um other joys or the avoidance of persecution, uh, the things of this age, um, deceitfulness of wealth, things are mentioned in the parable. Yep. And then so there's three that are are lacking, and then there's one where the seed is sown on good soil, and there's a reception of the message which results in, you know, reproduction or fruitfulness that comes from it. So, how does the the parable and the interpretation of the parable, how does that speak again into what does it mean to really listen to Jesus?

SPEAKER_03

We've already started to toy this out a little bit, but yeah, I I think the way I would say it is there's there are three wrong responses, you know. Um I think that those first three inadequate's probably the right inadequate and sufficient responses to that gospel, and there's one correct one. The one that the one that truly listens, truly receives the the gospel that's being sown, is the one who um was described as that good soil, who who embraces that again. The the seed is embedded within the soil, it takes root, and then ultimately it's the one that yields a harvest, it bears fruit. Um, none of the other ones are fruitful, and uh I think that that's significant to unpack from from the the parable itself. Yeah, so I think the the response of actually listening, actually receiving what Jesus is saying and allowing it to transform your life would be the reception of someone who is a genuine believer, you know. That that's the that's the response there.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting. I've heard this message before, we all have. This is a familiar parable, it's repeated in two other gospels, not just Matthew. Um often I hear I've heard preachers use this as bearing fruit as you know, um we sow the gospel and and uh we evangelize. But wouldn't this also be, you know, I'm thinking through what is reproduced in our life, and it makes me think through the character of Jesus Christ, makes me think of the fruit of the Spirit, you know, love, joy, peace. So it's not necessarily connected. Connectly tied to per se evangelism or our spreading of the gospel, although it might it include that just by the fact of our lives and uh and our communication, what we've experienced and what we've received is good news. I mean, it's glorious. But it's beyond that, it's the character of Christ being reproduced in us. Absolutely. And um and seed dies and it grows and it sometimes grows slowly. Exactly. But that's that's what's being reproduced. Would you comment on that?

SPEAKER_03

I would agree with that. Yeah, I think the yes. Um, I don't think in particular that there's uh the the fruitfulness is reloaded or is related to someone's ability to reproduce necessarily. And I think I think like you mentioned, that's part of it. I think the life of Christ being made manifest in us and through us through the power of the Spirit, uh and the fruits of the Spirit, as you mentioned, um, are what's in view there. And I tied some of this to to James a little bit, but it's like it's that faith that also is is fruitful, is the same the same idea that we see in in James with the uh faith and works, which I know there's a lot of that's a challenging text for some people in that sense, but it's it's that the kind of faith that produce produces fruit, good, good works, um, virtuous things, um like you mentioned the fruits of the spirit, the life of Christ. Uh that would be what I think would be in in view there for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's the in the life of the individual, they're being fruitful, the fruits of righteousness.

SPEAKER_01

Out of out of the three responses that are um inadequate, yeah, there's only one of the three just doesn't get it. Hears the message, doesn't understand it, and therefore what's given is taken away. Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't take root at all.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

The the other two, there's actually a hearing and there's uh somewhat of an immediate response, or seems to be. I mean, even like received it with joy. Yes. But then and then the either the cares of the world or the deceitfulness of wealth or the pleasures of other things, yes, kind of rob that. Um, so um in light of that, yes, should we be surprised or not surprised by the fact that there's varying responses to the gospel that has an immediate like that looks like it fell to the ground and started to produce you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's a whole big topic.

SPEAKER_01

That's what the podcast is for.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so my perspective on this would be um that yes, there are responses to the gospel that I think I used the word superficial, and I I was pretty upfront in the message that there is an appearance of reception, but ultimately it is not a uh it's not a genuine, authentic reception. Yeah, it's a fleeting momentary response. And in scripture, there are I think other examples of that that we see that Jesus he turns. Um Is it Matthew 7, where he talks about the people who say, you know, didn't we do all these things in your name?

SPEAKER_00

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And he said, Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, and I never knew you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, or there's examples of people who kind of fell away, you know, Demas.

SPEAKER_01

Demas is probably the one significant one that was even a part of Paul's traveling team exactly that eventually became allured by the world and left. And uh yeah, we don't know the end of a story, but clearly one who is walked away from the faith at that point.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. And there's uh there are examples in scripture, people who, yeah, who their departure is is makes manifest or evident that they were not among yeah, those who were genuine disciples.

SPEAKER_01

So Well, I'm even thinking of uh Acts 20. This is uh coming to my mind, where Paul is on the end of his final missionary journey, he's heading to Jerusalem. From there he's gonna eventually go to Rome, but he's heading to Jerusalem, and he realizes that he's visiting churches that he's planted and been involved. If he goes to the shore of where Ephesus is, he calls the elders of the church to come and visit with him.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And he's sharing with him in Acts 20 kind of a final speech, kind of like, Hey, I I know I'm never gonna see you again, and I've I've proclaimed to you the whole council of the word of God, and and uh but in that speech he even says, and I know there are some among you who are ravenous wolves. Exactly. That's an incredible audience that he's speaking to. He's speaking to the church leaders who are scattered across Ephesus, and he just acknowledges that even among you, there's some that will be ravenous wolves. I'm I'm leaving, I'll never see you again. And and he and he charges those to be on guard, which is fascinating. It is fascinating.

SPEAKER_03

That's on a whole different level of well, and that's where I mentioned before we got into this conversation, this conversation can go a lot of different directions. Sure. It's funny, Eric and I have had many conversations to this end about the topic of apostasy and all that. I I I have a position where I would say I do not think we can lose our salvation. I I think that those who are genuinely in Christ are converted, are secure in Christ. Um at the same time, you have the like warning passages in Hebrews, for example, right? And it's the warning against apostasy falling away.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I would take the position that those who are apostate are people who would be in that same category as one of those soils where maybe there's a res response or reception that even included apparent fruitfulness. Like good to go back to Matthew 7 when Jesus says, Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you. We never knew them, first of all. But they also said, Didn't we do perform miracles and you didn't we cast out like they were doing things that looked that looked like it was a genuine response? Yeah, and the Hebrews warning passages, there's some of that similar language where it's almost like they tasted something of the the spirit. Like there's a there's a there's a response to the gospel where they receive with joy and they begin to engage perhaps in certain things, but that there's no root. Yeah. And that's where I would tie all that back to this idea that there is a there is a a way in which we can respond to the gospel that has the appearance of a reception that's not genuine. From my own even experience raising children, this is just a whole whole bigger, bigger topic. Um and there's nothing wrong with this, but I I grew up in an environment where it was kind of like have you trusted in Jesus? Oh, got that part done, now it's moving on. It's just there's a culture.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I grew up in a culture where that was that was the case. With my children, it's it's always been, are you trusting in Jesus? I I didn't make it a past tense thing. It's always a present tense thing just because um because I don't want to I don't want to suggest to my kids growing up that that their faith in Jesus was a past tense thing that they did and now they can move on with the rest of their life. Yeah, it is a present ongoing thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because if they've trusted in Jesus, they've been brought into a union with him and it's an ongoing abiding in him, abiding in the right.

SPEAKER_03

And to be clear, yes, I do think there's a moment of justification where you place your faith and there's that transformation.

SPEAKER_01

But but not everyone has the Apostle Paul experience. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so part of it is just it is, it is uh, you know, we have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. I believe in justification, yeah, sanctification, glorification. But my point in that is that the what the New Testament seems to to project to us is that there are people who make it seems like even professions that fall away. And my my faith needs to be living and active and continuous throughout the course of my life, and it's a faith that endures. Yeah. And a faith that um that keeps me pursuing Christ throughout the duration of my life.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, boy, there's a lot, there's a lot here. I'm listening to you.

SPEAKER_03

Well, that's why that's why I told you we could go a lot of places.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, there's just a lot of things I I'd like to say or thinking through as you're speaking. Um we believe the promises of God, we also heed the warnings, and they're there. So we hold them both. We believe the promises, we heed the warnings. They're both given for our good, for our benefit, for our growth and godliness. I I like the fact that um, you know, you you commented on the fact that we we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Yes. That that paradigm, that matrix is really helpful. It's very helpful. And the fact that I'm being saved lets me know that I have been and will be. You know, those are all tied together remarkably.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

And um it it's more than just a past tense thing, it's an ongoing, ongoing life. It's remarkable.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And and like I said, it's you know, nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus. I do feel like there's a security there. I also feel like sometimes we we don't emphasize the the full picture of what it means. You know, we I think we sometimes over-emphasize security and don't emphasize the importance of enduring. Um that's where the warning passages come into play.

SPEAKER_01

There's also just the uh amazing the the the song Amazing Grace that's so well known even speaks of the fact that the grace that has saved us, wretches, is also the grace that leads us home. So there's the grace that saves that also is a grace that sanctifies and ultimately perseveres.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And that too is owing to the glory of God. Yeah, there's no boasting in this from beginning to end. But there is a response of hearing the gospel, listening to Jesus, yeah, and responding to that in a dependent, humble faith that results in conversion. Right. A true life bears fruit in the fact that we begin to produce in us the spirit begins to produce in us the character of Christ. Exactly. Yeah, awesome, good stuff. To go along with that, Jesus uh himself says that the parables both reveal truth and conceal truth. Yeah. So they do both. And we're we're already touching into this. Yes. So they communicate a message, they also conceal a message. You know, there again is that tension, you know, how should we think about that? Yes. Um, how do and again, you you've already started talking about you know the sovereignty of God and salvation and human responsibility, but sure parables do some of that revealing and concealing. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

So thoughts on that? Yeah, so I didn't this message itself or that the text could could be a series, or it could be you know, you could you could break it into a number of topical things. You know, part of what we're talking about is this idea of of illumination and God, you know, kind of opening our eyes and and to to see truth. And um, for those who who hear and respond, I think one of the big things I'd say, again, I I believe these are like many things, the tensions that exist of the sovereignty and human responsibility. We see that at play a lot. We've talked about this in our podcast before. There are so many examples of scripture that that affirm both of those things, even again. It's often in the same paragraph. Yeah, and Acts. I I mean that's one of the quintessential ones, is when uh in Acts 2, when the when Peter is preaching at Pentecost, uh, and the the Jewish religious leaders are there, he says kind of like, you know, this Jesus who is delivered up to you by the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified. Like it's in one sentence, a very distilled like, hey, this is all part of God's plan that Jesus was crucified, but you did it. Yeah, shame on you. It's and you're culpable. You're culpable. You're responsible. Absolutely. So these are just truths that are just affirmed in scripture, and and we should we should embrace those truths. And so um the sovereignty of God through this, I think is upheld. Uh, also the responsibility of the listener is upheld. And as I mentioned on Sunday, you know, for those who've responded and who are believing the the word, believing the gospel, and we've experienced salvation, that's a grace to us. We wanna we want to credit the Lord for that and not think that we somehow deserve that or earn that or yeah, secured that for ourselves. Yep. We we give him the praise for that, but for those who reject that, we don't throw God under the bus and say, Oh, that's God's fault. And I, you know, there's culpability there. And so I think that those things are are pretty key. It's actually really interesting because I didn't have have time to do it on Sunday. But even the way that Matthew presents this material, when you even compare it with Mark, there's a whole bunch of really cool, nerdy things. But he there's some choices of the way that he uses some of the words in there that um uh like for example, I'll just see if I can remember off the top of my head. I I don't have my notes in front of me when I study this, but he talks about at one point. Um hold on. Yeah, some of the quoting, I think, of of when he quotes Isaiah. Oh he it's just the choice of words and where he's saying certain things, he's almost softening the way that it's communicated so that way we understand, oh, okay, what the way that Matthew is presenting this is that God is totally sovereign, but like it doesn't diminish the culpability. Even when, you know, the the quote where he says, Um, understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them. You know, we know that God's revealed will is that all would believe, yeah, and all would receive salvation. If that's his revealed will, that's God's desire, but all don't. Uh, people reject him and they're culpable for that. So that's pressing. And I guess I can unpack further if you have no more pointed questions, but I we we just uh we get in we get in the problem sometimes. We we run into error sometimes when we just prop up one.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah. Did the diminishment of the other. Yeah, yeah. It's also makes me think through the early chapters of the book of Romans where it just talks about the power of the gospel, the message itself is powerful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's not the person who's, you know, but the message of the gospel itself is powerful. Uh the Spirit of God has the revealing work of taking the word of God and and opening our eyes and opening our ears. Uh the fact that God doesn't make soft hearts hard, he softens heart to receive the gospel. And so it's all owing to the praise and glory of God's grace. And then in that those same sections, you know, it talks about it. We are without excuse. Without excuse. God's revealed. God has revealed himself definitively. Exactly. Not only in creation, but most perfectly in his son, as we talked about earlier. Exactly. Hebrews 1. Yeah. Yeah, really good. That's great. Um when you start talking about these things, there's a danger for the listener today, both the Sunday morning listener and the podcast listener to begin turning their attention to their faith. Yeah. And the amount of their faith or their quality of faith. Well, there's a danger in that, right? Because all of our faith is little, immature, and developing at best, right? And so there's a danger about having people turn to their faith because we want to turn them to the object of faith, right? That's that's that's more valuable. So Jesus is the one who saves. Exactly. And so we don't want to get lost in that as well. Is that any anything you want to comment on that?

SPEAKER_03

Or no, I think like you captured a lot of uh that in the the question itself. I think well, to go back to even I mentioned, and I grew up in a great context of faith when I was young, in particular, when I was very young, but it was a little bit of the culture where the church I was at, where it's like, you know, um, every summer you go off to some VBS and you rededicate your life. And you, you know, in some circles, people get baptized multiple times, and it's almost like uh, you know, I don't know if I believed enough kind of thing. I think that that's just a I get it. That's a that's a tension that people probably feel or a conviction that people might may have. But like you mentioned, like it's not necessarily about, you know, are you believing enough? Because I think then the fo the the focus of your salvation. I'm and I'm not sufficient to say, my level of yeah, exactly. I'm I'm insufficient.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Uh it's not about whether you believe enough. Is Christ enough?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

That's really the question. Yeah and he is, he's fully sufficient.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And there, and even the idea of struggling sometimes in faith and and all that, I think um, well, I've heard it this way, you know, it's like if if you're concerned with that, that's usually a good sign. It's usually the people who are not concerned with that that you might be want to be worried about. But um there are examples in scripture of people who, what is it, the the man who said, I believe, Lord help my unbelief. Yeah. There's a category where we can have a measure of faith and still at times struggle or absolutely challenges there. Um, but again, when we when we when we put ourselves in the position of of being the sufficient individual for our own salvation, that's when we err. Sure. Christ is enough, he's sufficient.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, Jesus saves. And the fact that when we place our faith in Jesus Christ, we're brought into a union with him, we're given his spirit, his spirit, interestingly, will convict us of sin as a believer. And when we're convicted of sin, that's not a pleasant thing. We we have revealed to us things about ourselves that are not good, not aligned with the character of Christ. And that that can become disconcerning.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And and uh, and our adversary can use that to be like, see, you know, how can you be uh, you know, how can you call yourself a Christian?

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

And uh, but the intention of the Holy Spirit is to use that so that we might again turn from that, turn, turn to who? Turn to Jesus, the one who saved us, and uh continue growing in faith and maturing in a walk or something.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think that that was yeah, to the point I was making that you when you're concerned with those things, that's usually a sign of conviction. That's a good thing. Sure. Um because we're on the topic of all these hot button things that we're talking about in this method, you know, it's kind of like people talk about the unpardonable sin, right? And it's like, you know, and it's uh those who are concerned with that are demonstrating, you know, the gravity of that reality. Exactly, right. So if you know, it's anyways the the point would just be um we we should feel those convictions, those are healthy, normal parts of the Christian life. I don't think it means that we need to go back to ourselves and continually take those steps. It's it's just pointing our, you know, the the reality is we all are failures, we just are. Jesus is the hero, he's the one who you know salvation belongs to the Lord. Yep. And so when we when we fall into those seasons, it's turning back to the one who saves, is is what I would encourage, not not ourselves, you know, not our not trying to shore up our own ability to believe more or do more or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So yeah, this is really good. Yeah, we could press on this for a long time. This is a good parable, um, a good handling of the text, appreciate it. Uh a good conversation here. Uh obviously we could we could press into more. Yep. But we we are nearing the end of the parable series. Yes. This is number four out of 40-ish. That uh depending on how you look at the gospels and how many parables Jesus uh used. Uh, but we got one more. Yes. Um you know where you're heading this week, so we can prepare and I think so.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, all right. I think so. Yeah, so you have a choice. Again, it's yes, it's Wednesday mornings 37, 36 more of them to choose from. And as I've talked about, uh we film these podcasts lately, it's been Wednesday mornings. So if I don't, if by this afternoon I don't know where I'm at, that's there's a problem. But I think at this point, uh we we will be in Matthew 25, and uh parable of the ten virgins is I think where we're gonna be going to uh this week. Good. So part of it also is it's communion Sunday. Oh, yeah. So being you know, prepared for that for people to know, but there's there's an element to that parable that lends itself well to communion also. So I think that that's probably the direction I'll be heading.

SPEAKER_01

Excellent. I'm looking forward to both. Looking forward to celebrating the Lord's table with God's people, yep, who have been saved by his grace, who are trusting in Christ and come together and remember him and celebrate him and partake together of the elements and and uh and also look around at the family and say, These are my people, these are people whom God has graciously rescued.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So looking forward to that. Also looking forward to the the the last parable in this series for this time. So yeah. This has been a great conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Mark, I appreciate it. Thanks for uh asking great questions and and yeah, this is a this is a tough one. This is a lot of good good conversation, but it was fun. Real good. So everybody, thanks for tuning in. We appreciate you joining us again, and we hope to see you next week.