After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 34: "Trust In The LORD"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 34

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0:00 | 44:59

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday: Jun 14, 2026

SPEAKER_00

Welcome again, everybody, to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frank and Moose Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And we're glad that you're here again. And I'm once again joined by Pastor Mark. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01

Good, Joe. I'm doing better than you.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, you are.

SPEAKER_01

I yes, I am doing better than you. I I heard last night you had a uh incident, auto incident.

SPEAKER_00

I did.

SPEAKER_01

Bugger.

SPEAKER_00

I'll set the scene for those who are listening or watching. So, yes, I had a baseball game, which was in Grand Blanc. Uh, I have another child who had another baseball game simultaneously in a different town. So we divided and conquered, and I took two of my kids and was on my way there. Everything was going smoothly until right after the Mount Morris exit, my tire blew. So I had to change a tire.

SPEAKER_01

On the highway.

SPEAKER_00

On the highway. Fortunately, it's one of the blessings of being in a small town and knowing the people on the team. Somebody was driving by and pulled over, and I put my two kids in the car with them, so they got to the game on time. Nice. Yeah, that was super nice. Very kind. And then I proceeded to change the tire. A good Samaritan pulled over, helped me change my tire, did it a lot faster, which is great. So it was good. I uh I can change a tire.

SPEAKER_01

It wasn't an 18-year-old girl, wasn't it? It was not an 18-year-old girl.

SPEAKER_00

No, it was not. Yes. I uh it was a 61-year-old man who was very benevolent, very kind uh to help me. And and um I have changed tires before, so I can do that, but I am not the handiest person. And I actually had never met it's a you know, the donut in my car. Yeah. I had never like whatever retracted it or taken it down before, so it took me a little bit to get my bearings, but we figured it out.

SPEAKER_01

You get to the game?

SPEAKER_00

Got to the game on time about 15 to 20 minutes, and the whole tire was replaced. That was that was about it, pretty quick. Uh got to the game on time, and then it rained. Oh, this is the part I didn't tell you. So the tire blew, got there on the donut, then halfway through, three-quarters of the way through that game, the storm clouds rolled in. We saw some lightning, so we went under a pavilion, and I was on the wrong side of the pavilion. So when the rain started going sideways, it was you, I was 100% saturated. Not like, oh, I'm kind of wet. Like Joe took a shower with his clothes on wet and then drove and my donut home drenched 45 miles an hour with dirt all over all the bags and stuff from the baseball equipment. And yeah, right now Knox's glove and all that's like drying out in the garage. It was a wonderful evening.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but yeah, I'm uh you ought to be grateful that it wasn't doing that while you were changing the tire. Because if you were changing the tire in the rain, you'd have been miserable.

SPEAKER_00

But it's you know what? And that's a good this is all also a perfect segue into our mess or into the content today. But yes, I did notice a few things. One, the man who pulled over was a uh Christian, and I had a good conversation with him. And he's just it was like part of his his ethic. You know, hey, I see someone in trouble. Wow, fantastic. I help them if they need help, great, and I'll always try to make time. If not, I just keep going. So that was amazing. He was the guy right behind me, too. He pulled over right as I pulled over. Wow. Amazing. Then the other piece of that uh that was cool is the moment um I put my you know disintegrated tire in the back of my car because I didn't just want to leave it, you know, down the highway.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It smelled awful. Um, yeah. So uh the moment I put it in there and closed the car, I felt the first couple drops of an initial rain and then drove and it was heavy driving there, you know, and then it cleared up and then it started raining heavy again.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Hail, all the stuff.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. You could have been you could have been out there on your knees, bending over over a tire with a pounding rain that means you'd have not been happy.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. It was an eventful evening. So that was what I did.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, good for you. Yeah. Well, hey, we're here to talk Sunday sermon. Right. We're here Sunday sermon stuff. You're week two in a sermon series for the summer. Correct. Looking at famous or familiar verses. Last week was John 3.16. This week is another very familiar one, Proverbs 3, 5, and 6. Yep. Uh, which we have it memorized as well. We know this one. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding, and all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your paths or he will make your way straight. That's the that's the familiar verse that many of us know. Correct. And uh, you unpacked it Sunday. Uh, as you kick that off, this uh the sermon, uh, you were talking about just how as a little kid you and your brother used to go hang out in the woods and uh put your parents' cabin up north and uh enjoyed doing that, had fun doing that. But woods can be hanging out in the woods or hiking in the woods can get a little funny because things start looking familiar. Exactly. Uh I'm just curious, uh, you didn't go that far into it, but did you ever ever really get lost where you needed help to be found, either in the woods or otherwise in life? I have ever really been lost, lost.

SPEAKER_00

I have in life been lost. I mean, the woods, the they were not that large of a of woods. Like, and we for the most part had our bearings, you know, we kind of knew pretty well where things were, and like it's like you, you know, we had moments where we would come across parts of the path, like our new areas we'd explore, and we'd kind of end up, you know, coming out by a road or something, like, oh, this isn't the area, then we'd backtrack and we'd we'd figure it out. That wasn't so bad, but in life, yes, I have I'm probably directionally challenged. I'll I'll be honest, I'm not great with directions. So um, now what's weird about that is now with technology, it's really hard to get lost when you have a cell phone.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, you can find yourself as long as you're in the woods.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, as long as you got a uh some sort of signal. And I'm probably more reliant on that than I wish I was because before, I mean, before phones, yeah, like I think I share. Well, I went I lived overseas without a cell phone. I was there two years. You figured it out. And you figure it out, and you just I don't know. Um, and I first started driving, you know, for the first several years, it was like you have a map in your car and you figure it out. So I'm already directionally challenged and now I'm probably I have a crutch, which is my phone. But I have been lost. Yes. Do I have like a really good story of a time? No, but I've certainly been lost. I've had to ask for directions. Okay. I've been in those situations for sure a bunch.

SPEAKER_01

No one likes getting lost. No one wants to be lost. That's an unsettling, unsettling thing. I obviously don't like getting lost. I'm a map, I'm a map guy though. So when I go when I go travel places, uh I pull the old paper map out because I just I I don't uh direct myself with that, but I I almost like want to memorize it. I want to know what's in the map.

SPEAKER_00

Where do you find such map? Right? Like what's even thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01

My uh my uncle, when he retired, moved to Costa Rica and we went down to visit him. And when I get there, I'm just I'm looking at the map because I just want to know where things are at. Oh, that's fun. So I'm kind of map directionally driven. So that's cool. Um I would have a hard time thinking on the last time I was lost because I don't like getting lost. I like to know generally where I'm at. Do you ask for directions if you're lost? As a last resort, that would be a little bit of the pride probably in all of us. For sure. Have you uh ever given instructions to someone who was lost? Like you were someone who lost, they came to you and like, hey, can you tell me where I'm at or where to go? And have someone actually trust you? And have you ever ever had the situation where you were giving them instructions and they you they're not trusting you. They're not probably both, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's interesting though, because sometimes when people ask for directions, the way some people have different expectations of how you explain that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Most people are really helped when you give north-south-east-west directions instead of right or left. Correct. I'm being sarcastic.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's probably my point. Because it's funny because it's like, you know, you get to to the big oak tree and then you you you turn the east. Yeah, it's yeah. So what's funny about that is um the directional challenge part of me. Sometimes they're like, Oh, how do you get there? And I'm like, uh, and I have to kind of like I have to work out a little bit. I'm not I'm not great at giving directions. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So that's so you you could take them there, but you might not be able to give them good directions.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, or I'd have to like think a little, I'd have to take time, I'd slow down, I have to think about like which actual directions they're going. I've received directions that were not always the most helpful. Yeah, both. I again, I don't know if I have like a great definitive story, but I have been lost. I've given directions, I've received directions. Sometimes those directions are good, sometimes they're not helpful.

SPEAKER_01

I remember with this 40 years ago. Lynn and I were dating. So this is before we were married. And uh, left her house and uh they lived in a remote area, they lived on a little small farm and they boarded horses, and so they lived in the country, and I'm I'm traveling down the road, heading back to my house, and there's a car pulled off alongside of the road, so I stopped to see what's going on. And uh it was a husband-wife, and they had directions. This is before cell phones, they had directions to get to someone's home, and uh they just didn't know where they were at and they were they were lost, and they mentioned the address and the place where they were going. Well, I I grew up there, I knew exactly where they were going. I knew the road, and I even knew the house they needed to go to. And so I start describing to them how to get there, and then I finally just said, Hey, I'll just just follow me. I'll I'll drive you there. Just follow me. And so we take off, and again, this is out in the country, and we get a few miles down the road, and I see they pull off again. And so I stop and I'm like, you know, hey, we're almost there. And it was funny. I don't know why they had a hard time trusting me, but I'm literally I'm going to drive them there. And eventually I did. I eventually just literally drove them into the driveway and said, Hey, here you are. And they were super appreciative, but it was really funny along the way. At some point, they lost confidence that I was actually taking them. Really? Yeah. So this is uh we're I wasn't, you know, a bearded, rough looking guy. I wasn't I thought it was trustworthy.

SPEAKER_00

Uh this is interesting. It's a little bit of a we're we're moving off to territory that's probably not on topic, but I we used to live I grew up near 675. So we would have people who would run out of gas and walk to our house and knock. And I remember one time I was probably 17, and there was a couple people who ran out of gas and needed a ride to an area of town. It was a whole thing. And I was like, you know, I was young, and you're just like, all right. Yeah. So like I gave him a ride. I think after like I I got chastised by mom and daddy.

SPEAKER_01

You don't do that. You probably shouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_00

Like, you know, you know, whatever. But uh yeah, anyways, interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we better we better press into uh Proverbs 3, 5, and 6. Uh trusting in the Lord, not leaning on your understanding and uh being directed by Him. Yeah. Um You at the beginning of the message we're dealing with a proverb, and you uh mentioned in your message that the book of Proverbs and Proverbs specifically are they're just general truths for how life is supposed to work.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So they're not fixed promises, but just general wisdom for a good God-honoring life. Correct. Um I'm curious, as we consider wisdom literature, have you ever heard that Proverbs was written for young men and the Song of Solomon was written for young women as a general audience? Have you ever heard that?

SPEAKER_00

I have heard it. Yeah. I've not probably pressed into that very much. Um do you have like a hot take on that?

SPEAKER_01

No, I just remember hearing it for the first time and like really being captivated by that. Like, because I'd never, you know, obviously you hadn't heard it before. I'm like, oh, that's just really interesting. Their argument was the fact that you read the book of Proverbs and it sounds like a father giving wisdom to his son. My son listened to my voice and you know, heed my instruction. And then you get to the uh Song of Solomon, and it appears as though siblings instructing a younger sister as it relates to the matters of of love and courtship and relationships. So I when I heard that, I thought, oh, that's really fascinating. I really haven't gone any further with that. Sure. Um, but I I was kind of curious if you heard that.

SPEAKER_00

I would say that both should be read and applied by men and women, but it's interesting in terms of the inst the way in which that the instruction is given, is kind of interesting. And from that vantage point, it's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01

But it's also interesting too because the Song of Solomon, if you want to talk about books in the Bible that are generally underutilized, underused, that would be one of them. Even under read.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely would be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And so that was the other thing that kind of captivated my um intrigue or my attention when I read that. I'm like, that's interesting. I remember reading Proverbs as a young man.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. And being really helped by it. It's interesting. We're our uh the guys in our community group just started Proverbs yesterday. So we're reading through Proverbs together, which is cool. But like it, you know, the first chapter, you're also introduced to Lady Wisdom and you have Lady Folly, you have all these things, but it's all also just really the way in which it's presented, it is very helpful from a that perspective of understanding a father speaking to a son.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, anyways. So your community group just started reading Proverbs?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Oh, the the guys. The guys text every day, and we read through we just read through passages and text.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I've also heard of people, um Proverbs are 31 chapters.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So largely you can read a chapter a day, and you're gonna get through that book every month.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and I've heard of people who pick that up as a I don't have this as a practice, but they will read a proverb a day. Yeah. They'll also read five psalms a day. And and they're getting through Proverbs and Psalms on the on the monthly, which is remarkable. I've never picked that up as a rhythm. It is interesting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's a cool rhythm.

SPEAKER_01

I know Keller was big on reading the Psalms daily.

SPEAKER_00

So that's interest that's interesting. Well, and a lot of reading plans have the Psalms in it daily as well, which is cool. Oh, yeah. You know, your Bible reading plans or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Circling back into the fact that you mentioned that Proverbs are not fixed promises, they're just general wisdom for a good life and a God-honoring life. If Proverbs are general truths for how life is supposed to work, then how should that uh influence our reading of the book, even our thinking through and applying the book? If they're because you read Proverbs 3, 5 and 6.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it sounds like a promise. It does. Trust in the Lord and He will direct your path. And uh, but if they're general truths, how should that influence our approach to the book and our our reading of the book?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I think part of why I said that it's a just uh I think it's just helpful to have us be oriented to to what we're reading and how we interpret it. So the book of Proverbs um gives gives truths for for what you normally see. It doesn't guarantee the outcomes. I think that helps level set your expectations for the book because sometimes people will look at the outcome of the situation and think that that the result this was guaranteed to the book's not honest, or the book's not honest. Yeah, the book's not honest, or maybe I didn't do it right, or you know, there sometimes people will will read into that wrongly, and it it's it's just healthy for us to understand and have a healthy expectation for the book is. Like I mentioned in the message, generally speaking, if you follow what Proverbs teaches, more often than not, presumably, yeah, things will go well. And so I think it's helpful to understand that with the text itself. I wanted to kind of even take it take it a little deeper because there's things about even the text itself that you know I think it's even communicating more than just oh, your life is gonna go easy as the result. I think there's a little more than that. Um and I will probably go into that with some of your questions, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So, anyways, this is general wisdom for a good, God-honoring life. Yep. Um, and these are these are principles, these are truths, they're not um maxims, like um so even so the wisdom is good to follow no matter what.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, and you are somebody who who the way you've articulated it was very helpful for me in the past, but we take this as a component of wisdom literature. Um, this is not the the the sole substance of the wisdom literature. You have these different elements of it that when taken together are just a really robust way to to navigate through life. Yeah. And so part of like, I think the way you've articulated it is that you uh this is how life usually works. It's meant to be. This is how it's supposed to be. Uh you get to books like Ecclesiastes, and it's like, but not always. Not always. You know, sometimes you do something and the exact opposite of what you'd expect to happen. It's like life is hell, it's unpredictable. And then Job would be an example of of someone who did the right things that didn't stuff didn't go well. Yeah. So it gives you that personal kind of view of that. So I think wisdom literature is meant to be looked at um the reason they've been compiled together as part of scripture, yeah, is that we're meant to see in every avenue of life we're meant, we're we're we have a guide for how to operate and function in God's world. So, like as a general principle for you know, families or individuals who are looking to to approach life wisely, Proverbs is a gold mine. Yeah. Because you just begin to say, hey, these are practices and principles and things I want to begin to apply. I'm not going to expect that the result will always be what I I think it will be. And in those moments when it's not, we have books like Ecclesiastes and Job that just are really helpful to walk through life.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because if this is wisdom and how life is meant supposed to be and is meant to be, we know that uh sin has made life messy. Correct. Uh sin has made life difficult. And so uh but the wisdom still applies. Correct. And the going the wisdom route still applies. Is is still the way to go, even if the end result isn't what I uh hoped for or desired, or the way it was even prescribed to be uh initially.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and one of the things you find, um, this is getting in the weeds, but I guess that's what the podcast is for, is that there's something technically I think they call it the retribution principle, but a lot of people notice the sowing-reaping principles, where you know, if you do A, B is the result. Um there are times even in scripture where for the Jewish community, there were some expectations where like if the result was not so Job is a classic example. Well, Job, you must have done something wrong. Look at your life. That is the retribution principle being employed in a way that's kind of like I think it's um an oversight for Job's friends to blame him for because the outcomes of your life are such you must have done something wrong. We see the same thing in the New Testament when, for example, people, you know, Jesus is talking and his disciples bring up like, was it the tower of Siloam that fell? And what did those people do wrong? That and it's like, well, not always, that's not always the case. And so the idea is generally speaking, there are ways in which we conduct our life, and the outcomes, generally speaking, are the are the result of what you sow, you reap, but not all the time. And so that's just part of the sinful life that we're in. And so understanding that as Christians, uh, we live in a world that God uh set in motion that's ordered and good. Yet because of the fall, there are aspects of life that are still broken and fallen, and so things aren't always working out the way they should. That's just part of how we navigate wisely in the world we're in, you know. Which is helpful.

SPEAKER_01

And it's this is a value I hope it's a valuable conversation for those who are listening because it's uh we approach the book of Proverbs reading it even differently than we would the promises of God that are yes and Jesus Christ. Exactly. Yeah. Um train up a child in the way he should go, and when he's old he will not depart from it is different than Jesus telling us he's coming again. A hundred percent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

But the wisdom of training up a child in the way he should go still applies. Yes. That's still is still the path we should be on because this is the way God ordained and ordered life.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

It is a mess by our own our own making at times. Our sinfulness. Yeah. Anyways, I thought that was a valuable part of the message as you even began to press into this Proverbs 3, 5, and 6. Um as you developed the sermon and exposited the text, you you gave us four points dependence, danger, devotion, and direction. So, real quickly, dependence on our covenant-making, promise-keeping God. We depend on Him. Uh, there's the danger of leaning on our own limited knowledge and our limited understanding. Uh, there's the devotion of knowing God intimately and inviting him into every part of our life, and then the the direction, the direction of a straight path that God supplies us. Uh, just some uh questions coming from those four points. Uh I've got written down, you know, what is what's easier, trusting God or distrusting self? And there's not a straight answer for that one, but you know, as you think through, what's what's easier or more difficult for us, trusting God or distrusting ourselves? They're both like two sides of the same coin.

SPEAKER_00

They really are. And I think it just depends on circumstances. And you know, I think part of it is uh over the course of life, I have failed myself enough times that it it's helpful for me in this season of my life to to know, oh, I in my 30s I think there was a lot more dependence because I was still disillusioned with the fact that I probably had all my stuff together and I've kind of fumbled enough things in life where I I probably am beginning to not put as much stock in myself just through life experience.

SPEAKER_01

You're starting to learn to trust yourself less.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. And probably on the same side of the coin also learning to grow in my dependence on the Lord. So maybe both are helped through age and experience, probably a little bit. But we I think spiritual growth, all of that. That's all part of it. I think um both are you know our view of God is always too low and our view of self is always too high. So a big part of it is I mean typically, you know. So it's just a uh a process for me. I don't know. Yeah how about yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Well I I was just uh thinking through uh just recently been reading in my own, you know, uh personal reading through the Bible and devotional work. Um when Moses comes down and is leading the children of Israel out of Egypt, when he shows up, he says, Hey, God said this, he he's heard your cries, and he's gonna lead you out of here. And and they're like, they were encouraged, they were enthused by the fact that God had heard their prayers and Moses had now come and was going to deliver them. Well, Moses goes to visit Pharaoh, and immediately life gets really difficult for them because Pharaoh turns against them and they become they they're enslaved. And they're immediately like distrusting God that this actually happened. And it's fascinating to read through their story, and even as they are delivered, you know, God shows his mighty hand and he ultimately delivers them, leads them out to the Red Sea, and sure enough, here comes the the Egyptians, and they're like, Again, why are we here? Yeah. What did was there not enough graves back in Egypt? You had to bring us out here to die? Exactly. And it's just fascinating how and it just continues.

SPEAKER_00

Then they get the wilderness in there.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's just interesting how um they hear from God and trust him, life gets difficult, doesn't turn out the way they and then they're immediately calling into question. Interesting. Yeah. And so uh fortunately in the lives of God's children, he has a way of developing their faith. And growing them in faith.

SPEAKER_00

But that's good. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01

It was interesting. I didn't think of that, uh, of the maturity part of that as when you're younger, the self-confidence that maybe you have. Um we generally trust ourselves, but we trust in what we see.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And trust our own, you know, that we're good interpreters of our immediate context and know what's right and best to do.

SPEAKER_00

And it's probably also, you know, the same reason why I h hesitate to ask for directions. It's because it just you're stubborn, you're self-confident. Yeah. You don't want to look deficient in front of others.

SPEAKER_01

And I well, I didn't I hadn't worded it this way or thought of it this way. Is it possible to trust in God? I don't even know how to word that. I think there's a bit of part of repentance is turning our confidence from self anything other than God and putting our trust and faith in Him. So I was I was gonna get to the, you know, is it possible to really trust in God and maintain that level of confidence in either ourselves or Yeah. That's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_00

They're probably interconnected. You know, when one goes up, the other goes down, probably significantly.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that uh leads us a little bit, you know, how do we go about making plans while trusting God to direct our steps? So what keeps us from you know uh passivity can let you know Jesus take the wheel. I'm not gonna do anything, I'm gonna just be completely passive. And then the other side of that of being completely self-reliant and not trusting God at all. So yeah, how do how does this proverb um direct us, influence us, instruct us regarding making plans and trusting God simultaneously?

SPEAKER_00

So I think I mentioned you know that last section where it talks about and he will make straight your paths or he will direct your your paths. The way in which the language is there, I mean I think as a principle, not so much as a promise, we can take at face value the fact that when you're beginning to acknowledge God, know God in all your ways, and you're trusting in him, not trusting in yourself, part of knowing him and trusting in him means you're obedient to him, you're following what he calls you to do, which is good for you. God gives us instruction, guidance for our good, for our benefit and blessing. When you're walking in in that way, as you're in gate, you know, you're going down the path, the Lord will direct your steps or make your path straight. I think in a general sense, life will just get easier. You know, I mean, there are things about life, generally speaking, that will typically go well. I try to make that case. At the same time, part of that verse, and in the way that we I think we we can kind of understand it, is that your path will also be rightly directed. It doesn't that doesn't guarantee that the outcomes are always perfect. So so part of that, like thinking through that verse a little bit, it's like um I may be trusting the Lord, following his path, like following him, obeying him, acknowledging him, and something might not go the way I wanted it to or go well. It doesn't mean I'm off the desirable. Yeah, it's I'm not off the path. But but the Lord and his sovereignty may have that circumstance in my life for my good ultimately, where he is sovereignly carrying out his purposes. And so the outcomes don't, you know, you don't have to go back and say, Boy, I guess I was outside of the will of the Lord. As a general principle in life, and just go back to your question a little bit about making decisions, God has given us some pretty clear boundary lines for like what his will is for our life. You know, there are there are things in scripture that are pretty clear about the way that we are to live. If we are living within the framework that God has given us to function, you know, God's general will, that He's revealed.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. You know, we know what sin is, right? So like if you're if you're engaging in sinful practices, that is not the will of God for your life. You're to repent, turn from your sin, and and do what's right. So uh generally speaking, if we live in such a way where we're following the revealed will of God, what he has stated is is right, we're gonna encounter situation after situation where there's no roadmap directly given from God. Uh, you know, do I take the engineering course or should I go into education? What's God's will? Like there's no book of the Bible that tells you, oh, you should take when you're faced with that decision, take engineering. Yeah. It doesn't work that way. So you can pray about it, you can seek counsel, you can do things like that. I've tried to make the case you can make a pros and cons list because they're both good decisions.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. They're not you can serve humanity, you can do God's will, you can do God's will in those environments.

SPEAKER_00

If you're wondering if you should open a brothel, that's no. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not I'm kind of being silly there, but my point is just one is very clearly wrong. If both decisions are right, part of the way that you live wisely in the world is you you can pray and pursue the Lord, but there are times where you just need to make decisions. And as long as you're walking with the Lord in obedience, God is directing your path regardless of which one you choose, it's rightly directed because you're walking in the revealed will of the Lord. So there's there's um, I guess the way I would say it is if you go on the one side of the pendulum and you throw your hands up and say, you know, the Jesus take the wheel approach, you're never gonna do anything with your life because you're not gonna be making decisions. Yeah. On the other hand, if you're completely ignoring the revealed will of God and not even really pursuing thoughtfully what maybe God would have for you, you're gonna begin to go down a path that that ultimately is outside of God's will because you're living your life autonomously. And I think that there's somewhere in the middle of wisdom where we prayerfully pursue the Lord and the plans we make. We can we can pray about situations like that, especially if they're big decisions, but we we just make good decisions and we live within the confines that God has clearly revealed to us where to live, and we're gonna be in the will of the Lord, and He's gonna direct our path.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So there's great freedom within the framework of God's revealed will. Correct. God has revealed his will, God has a general will for people. Right. And there's but within that, within that parameters of God's revealed will, there's a tremendous amount of freedom.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And and we talked about this before. This is a little bit about the will of God. There are maybe two two coins of two sides of that. Like you have the what people call the secret will of God, right? So the is it Deuteronomy 29, 29, the secret things belong to the Lord our God, the things that are not the same thing. Revealed the Lord belong to children for our children. We're to teach them. So we have we have things about the sovereignty of God that we just don't know, don't understand why certain things happen. And there's a there's a sovereign secret will that if we knew that we would be gone. And we're not we not, we we're not. But then there's the things that are revealed that are in scripture that we can provide as a framework for life, and then we just live within that. And part of the decisions we make, if it's a gray decision, we try to do so with wisdom. We try to do so. That's part of what the wisdom religion is about. Counselors, and and we, you know, be smart, use your brain. God gave you these faculties for a reason, make good decisions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's interesting. I'm thinking through as I'm thinking through this conversation, the total passivity route where we're just unable or even frozen, not able to make a decision, and and we're just constantly waiting for you know Jesus to take the wheel that you know to to to do that for us. That's that's an error. There's there's another error on the other part of determining every decision based on how I feel about things, or if the if it went well. Uh this is this isn't going well, so it must be a it must be a wrong choice, and that's not true either. Makes me think through the uh Apostle Paul's life. Um man, he comes to Christ as converted, and immediately God says, you know, I'm gonna uh I'll reveal how much he will suffer from my namesake, which is just an interesting thing. And then he gets down the road and you consider the things that he suffered and the way he endured in the will of God uh remarkably.

SPEAKER_00

And it was one of the means God used to advance the gospel even further. It was Paul's sufferings in his chains. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and he knew that. So he was he was f freed to go to Rome as a prisoner and uh and continue serving God, and that that's good. Um, you you commented a little bit along the lines of uh God makes our path straight, but not so easily you made that distinction in your message uh in here as well. It's helpful. Uh, what areas of life as we uh acknowledge God and our faith grows in him, our faith grows in his promises, we're learning his will and we're walking in his will. Uh, what are some areas of life that uh we find more difficult to trust God in and areas that are more easy to trust God in? Is there something that that's more difficult for us to open our lives up to God's direction, God's will?

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure there are. I mean, I'm sure there probably are lots of things. I think I think when it comes to, like I mentioned, there's a lot of things that are gray. God does, you know, everything that we have in scripture is all we need for life and godliness. It's it's it's sufficient. Scripture is sufficient, but scripture is not exhaustive for every scenario. So sometimes those moments are tricky. Um, but boy, I there could be a lot of circumstances. I don't know if you've got thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01

No, I'm just thinking along the lines of areas where we feel more confident about that we are confident on our own to make these decisions apart from God. I don't need to pray for wisdom on this area because I I pretty much got this nailed down.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Oh, that's that's a good point. I'm sure, boy, maybe in the areas of life where we feel like we have more expertise. Yeah. I touched on that a little bit. Yeah, touch on that a little bit in the message that some of some people may even have this perspective, you know, that they're the an expert in their industry. But we're we're all we're all deficient. We don't have none, we don't have the exhaustive knowledge God does. And I think that that's a helpful way to think through things. But yeah, boy.

SPEAKER_01

You know, this wasn't this wasn't brought up in the message, and I don't necessarily have it written down here in front of us. Um, but um thinking through James 1, where James encourages his readers to uh seek God's wisdom, pray and ask God for wisdom. God gives wisdom uh liberally, generously, um, which is remarkable. But he in that, as I think through this, as I think about uh trusting in God and asking for wisdom, in James 1, he doesn't we don't prescribe to God how we presc well how he gives us the wisdom. So we can ask God for wisdom, continue to make our plans, continue to walk in his revealed will, knowing that he will provide the wisdom. But we don't dictate to God how that wisdom is necessarily provided.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And it's also a little bit similar with his leading and guiding, because there are times through my Christian walk where there was like, you know, I just I prayed about it and I kind of just really feel like this is really the right decision. It's kind of uh in the book of Acts, you have moments where it feels it's it's right to the apostles and it feels right to the Holy Spirit. It's like there's a sense of like, oh, this just feels like the right direction to go. You have these promptings, leadings, guiding the spirit, but then you also have moments where you're like, this looks like a great direction, and then the Lord just puts a roadblock, you know, so to speak. Paul had various times in his missionary journeys where he's like, Oh, I'm gonna go to Asia. This is the direction I'm gonna go, it's right there.

SPEAKER_01

And uh desirous, wanting to go to Bethany.

SPEAKER_00

And he and what does it say? The spirit of Jesus forbid him at one, you know, he he And doesn't tell us why or how. Yeah, doesn't tell us the means. A door was closed, and so then God opened the door for the Macedonian vision. That's I think that section it was chapter 16. Is it 16? 16, 17, yep, and so he begins yeah, his the Macedonian call, and he the Lord redirects him by closing doors and opening doors. I've had that, I shared some of that in my my message. I've had those experiences. So God leads in various ways and the the way in which he does it.

SPEAKER_01

He and he's capable of doing that completely. Um that that's one of the things I wanted to press into because you mentioned briefly in your message that you had plans for your life that God redirected. Yes. And so just some thoughts along that line. I like to hear a little bit of that story, and but you know, the plans that you had were those God honoring plans.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The you know, how did God redirect your steps at that time, and how does that influence your you know, your the plans that you're making now, even for your life? So I'm assuming those were God honoring plans that God redirected. Yes. It weigh into that a little bit. You didn't you didn't take the time of the message to do that, so that this is a good opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_00

The the short version is you know, I I knew I wanted to go into ministry uh since I was early 20s, went to school to do uh cross-cultural church planting. So I had some training for missionary work, for missionary work, not just but not just the biblical studies, but like yeah, planting churches and cross-cultural um areas. So I had training, was prepared to do that, um, was at a point in my life where um was backstayside and was engaged and then married, and so that was gonna be the plan for for Allie and I. We were gonna go do mission work and go overseas, and so we began to set in motion the execution of those plans. And uh, well, the the short end of it is we went to go to apply to get visas to go to back to England where I was gonna be brought on staff. There was a plan for that, and we were gonna complete a year of training, and after applying for visas. After applying for visas, we got denied that first year. So they said, Well, you gotta reapply for this next year. We just we had some problems. We couldn't get your visas through the through the school, like we couldn't we couldn't figure that out. There was accreditation issues I didn't know at the time. So waited another year, applied again, got denied again, was preparing to apply for a third year and try to figure all that out. And the school contacted us and said, Hey, we uh, you know, American students here were having accreditation issues through the states. We can have European students, but because you're American citizens, you you probably need to not, you probably need to reassess what you're gonna do because you're not gonna get a visa to go to the school where I was already established there. I had a plan. I was gonna be on staff. Um, while Allie went to one year there because I already finished the training. Yeah. Long story short, it was like very clear roadblock. Very hard season of my life because I felt this was a great, God honoring thing. We kind of hit the drawing board. Looking back, I see some providential things, which I don't need to go into all that, but the point is just it put us at a point where we didn't know what to do. The road was closed immediately in front of us. We were trying to figure things out, and then little by little God directed me toward I kind of stumbled into pastoral ministry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And um, but it was one of those like I was head of the direction, it was a God on our own direction. This is where we were going. The door was closed at the time. Couldn't even do it. Couldn't you go down that road? Couldn't. And at the time it was pretty awful. Looking back, I'm thankful to the Lord because I see his hand providentially and in other ways. And I, you know, I look at my life and it's not what I would have drawn for myself when I was 20. Yeah. But I've been blessed.

SPEAKER_01

That's interesting. Just by way of curiosity in my own memory, you would have come and did a an internship with me. Correct. At that point, you were actually on the path of pursuing missions work. Yep. Because all of this would have happened post that's a good idea. Yeah, if we want to get really weird, internship.

SPEAKER_00

I visited Frankenmouth Bible Church while I was engaged to begin to explore if there could potentially be a supporting church. As crazy as that is.

SPEAKER_01

Not a staff physician. This is years before I actually became a staff member. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

This this would have been 2009, something like that, 2008. Um, just because it was a church close by and had a conversation. You know, so, anyways, that was the tread trajectory I was on, and God closed the door and then just opened new doors.

SPEAKER_01

And boy, back at that time we were establishing a mid-Michigan missions consortium. And uh Frankenmouth Bible would have been a part of that consortium back in the day.

SPEAKER_00

And I spoke at the consortium when I was planning to take those steps, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So all that to say, you had God honoring plans.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Plans that you were looking to serve the Lord and glorify him in cross-cultural missionary work. And as you went down that road, as you were making your plans, taking your steps, God redirected your steps.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

In the right and best way. You look back in that and you say, oh, phenomenal. There's so many things. At the time, it was brutal.

SPEAKER_00

Hard. I would say one of the most devastating seasons of my life. Oh, yeah. Because it just felt like And guess what?

SPEAKER_01

You were newly married.

SPEAKER_00

I was newly married.

SPEAKER_01

Your wife got to see you at your worst earlier. This is true. Uh anyways. Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to bring that in because that you you just briefly referenced it in your message. And uh I thought this was probably the experience that you were speaking of. And I thought, oh, this is just a good illustration uh of what we've been talking about here uh with Proverbs 35 and 6. Um, anything else? You know, obviously you prepped for the message, delivered the message. Uh anything else from the text that you want to weigh in on or comment on before we uh we pivot and look toward this next week?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, there's probably always a ton of stuff you can you can weave in. Um probably nothing that I feel like I'm I didn't cover both here so far. I mean, the one of the big thing I I think I told you is that I didn't really press into it all the way, but this whole idea of making godly decisions, like decision-making. Oh, yeah. I think we even got some books over here that we uh just have in the background. We don't normally reference these books, but it's like there are um schools of thought biblically where people, you know, have have tried to explain making decisions. And so I'm I'm basically employing the what I explained in this podcast were just things that um that I've learned over the years from good biblical teaching about how to make decisions, you know, and and I think that it's important for us to live in that area where it's like so decision making in the will of God was one we we talked about. You the author of that book was part of your church for a while. He was, Gary Friesen, Dr. Gary Friesen.

SPEAKER_01

That decision making in the will of God isn't it's a great book, and uh it is uh just about every book that's been written on that topic since he published that has referenced that book because he just tackles how to make decisions in the will of God. It's a challenging read because it's it's a robust book, um, and the first half of the book will almost dismantle everything you thought about regarding making decisions in the will of God.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

It's the second half of the book that really gets pragmatic on how to make decisions. So someone needs to revise that because it's a really good book, but I think it could be uh written in a way that's um halfway through the book, you're like, wow, I'm I'm being I'm being crushed here. But it's a really good book, and I would recommend it. Uh the one I'd recommend even more is the the one that you have on the top of the pile, Just Do Something by Kevin DeYoung. Very accessible, very good book. Um and and much smaller, much more. You can read it in an evening or a couple evenings.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And there's a few things, you know, some systematic theologies that talk about what I mentioned with the you know, secret will of God and the revealed will. And so some of that's helpful too for understanding. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. There was a period of time where the will of God was being directed to where you had to find the specific, narrow will of God in every area of life. Yes. And that that can really handcuff you and read it. Debilitating is the right word.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I used an illustration many years ago. You know, you don't we don't need to get up in the morning and pray about which breakfast cereal to what to wear for the day. Right, or what to wear for the day. I mean, um you know, as long as we're we're just following what God has revealed to us, we we can make decisions and and trust him through that and glorify him through those decisions we make. And so I think there's a there's a really good um middle ground between you know requiring every decision you make to be you know the Lord handing you that with that decision and living autonomously.

SPEAKER_01

It's just living wisely in the world by obeying him and I'm just thinking right now along the lines of you know, here at Franklin with Bible Church, we're looking to launch into a new location. And we're making plans to that, and we're making preparations for that, and the staff are doing things to prepare for that eventual launch, and we're praying about it and we're pursuing that, and yet at the same time, we are acknowledging that our path will be directed by the we believe these to be God-honoring plans to multiply the church for the glory of his name. So we're making God-honoring plans. We recognize even as we make those plans and preparations, God's gonna direct our steps through this. But we're not waiting on him, yep, but we're also not um ignoring him. I don't know other way to use that. And I I hadn't thought of it prior to this, but this is really uh good to see this play out as a church.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and as we navigate through that, there might be some things that we attempt or try that are less successful through the process. And again, it's not a failure. It's not indicative of the fact that, oh boy, you you know, the Lord's will. It's like, no, that's not that's just the way you that's what I love about the book of Acts. There are times where you know Paul goes to certain areas and shares the gospel and spends time there, and there's not a whole lot of fruit, or he has a lot of opposition. It's not that's not an indicator that he's outside of the will of God. Yeah, and so we we are good stewards of what God has given us. We're a church, we have we have revealed will. We know the church is called to advance the gospel.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, multiply and multiply.

SPEAKER_00

So we're taking steps to do that, we're doing it prayerfully and carefully, thoughtfully, wisely, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00

Bringing people along, exactly, but but we're gonna we're gonna be action-oriented because God does not want us to sit back and be passive, right?

SPEAKER_01

I mean the other thing that's interesting that's not been mentioned, uh, and and probably just close off with this God doesn't waste experiences. No. So even if we were to lag behind what God wants us to do or run on ahead of what he wants us to do and we've and we fumble um or we come across some difficult experiences, God doesn't waste experiences. No, they just not, and uh you can take comfort in that as well. Yep. So even the hard lessons learned, you're like, yeah, I wouldn't have learned that otherwise.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_01

Hey, we're in the series, uh heading into another um a familiar passage for this next week, you know, where we're heading just by way of the of the verse we're gonna tackle.

SPEAKER_00

So we can look ahead and at this point at 2 Timothy 3, 16 through 17. At this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Inspiration of God's word.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. While scripture is breathing up again. Okay, excellent. At this point, TBD. Yeah, all right. Ask me by the end of the day. Actually, this is the point in the podcast where this is an inside joke. I need to say, absolutely not. I disagree. You're completely wrong. You looked at the schedule wrong. We uh just the inside joke is that Mark Mark and I, when we talk, apparently we agree a lot. We say a lot of yes and correct. So we're trying to weave in some moments where we meet he and I have some debate and fight just to mix things up. But no, no, that's that's where I'm gonna go at this point.

unknown

Good.

SPEAKER_01

Uh again, uh good series, and uh appreciate this. This is a good summer series. I like it. It's it's unique, and I appreciate you uh laying it out this way to take a moment to dive down into verses that are really familiar because as you said, even at the beginning of the message, because we're so familiar with them, we often just blow past them and don't give a lot of thought. So I appreciate the uh extended time to give thought to these verses. Excellent. Cool. Good. Thanks. It's been good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, again, everybody, thank you for joining us for After the Amen. Uh we hope that you make plans to join us again, and uh, we'll see you next week.