After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 35: "All Scripture Is God Breathed" & "All Things Work Together For Good"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 35

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0:00 | 1:01:30

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday: Jun 21, 2026

Linked Sunday: Jun 28 2026

SPEAKER_02

Well, hello everybody, and welcome to a very special edition of After the Amen. And it's special because I think we're doing two different messages that we're unpacking in the middle of the week. Once again, I'm joined by Pastor Mark. Hazen, how are you doing? I'm doing good, Joe. How are you? Good. Doing really well. It's a million degrees out right now.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I yeah, I could be doing better. I normally walk to work. I did not walk this morning. We're filming this in the morning, but it's got to be pushing 90 degrees already. It's hot. It's a it's a warm week. We are in the dog days of summer.

SPEAKER_02

It's interesting because the one of the messages we're unpacking was the Sunday where we had no air conditioning in this room.

SPEAKER_00

This is true. It was a warm Sunday.

SPEAKER_02

Third service I preached the fastest I've ever preached a message in my life.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we opened the doors, we were doing the best we could, but it wasn't.

SPEAKER_02

And that was only 72 degrees outside that day.

SPEAKER_00

It was warm in this room.

SPEAKER_02

So if that were to happen on a week like this. Yeah, this Sunday we'd be interested. I would preach on the topic of hell.

SPEAKER_00

That's what I would do. No, it's super warm. But I I found something that if you want to encourage people, if they're complaining about the heat, because you know we're now into the 90s this week, and you could just remind them that the days are getting shorter. Fall it seems to change the conversation quickly. Because no one gets real excited about the days getting shorter, and that points towards something that no one looks forward to.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Although some of us like fall, not many of us like the floor.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's tough. It does feel like we just got out of winter, but it's upon us again, eh?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, no, we're in the middle of summer and uh so enjoy it. Yeah. Uh this is a unique you mentioned uh that this is a unique podcast because we've got a couple sermons that we're gonna cover. We missed last week.

SPEAKER_01

Correct.

SPEAKER_00

Which was difficult to miss uh because we had um just begun a practice of uh encouraging the congregation to submit their questions, and uh we've got some of those, which is which are great. But uh it was kind of a bummer to uh put roll that out on a Sunday to say, hey, submit your questions, we'll include those in the podcast. And then we didn't do a podcast. Just kidding. And uh but we had a good week last week. It was a busy week staff retreat. We were away for a solid day. Um that was a good time. Yeah, applaud. We have a great staff team and uh had a family in the church graciously permit us to use their home up north, which is a great gift to us, but had a great time away, 24 hours away with the staff and a really good staff team. Uh but anyways, because of that and other things that press into the schedule, we had to punt this off. And so we're doing two sermons this uh podcast, so let's dive into it. Okay. Two weeks ago you preached on 2 Timothy 3, 14, 15, 16. Uh the key verse was uh verse 16. Right. Um but the text, let's just go into it a little bit. It says, uh, but as for you, this is Paul writing to Timothy. But as for you, Timothy, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you've learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, the scripture, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. I'm gonna pause there for a moment, like you did in your sermon, because you um commented on the fact that Timothy was significantly influenced, maybe even coming to faith, or certainly developed in the faith, by his mother and his grandmother, who are mentioned earlier in the letter. I mean, we know their names, Lois and Eunice. And uh so you paused there to talk about that. Timothy was developed in the faith by his um mother and grandmother. And at that moment you challenged parents and grandparents to follow their example and to uh teach your children and grandchildren uh the truth about Jesus. You specifically said don't waste the years you have with the young. So I just want to press into that for a moment. Any best practices or best things you've thought about as it relates to uh pouring that faith and pouring the scripture into kids and grandkids. You don't have grandkids, I have uh a pile of them.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, and I'm in the thick of that a little bit because I've got kind of the gambit, yeah. Um and I don't come from a place of like, oh, I've I really crushed that and I'm the consummate expert on how to do that.

SPEAKER_00

You know, every parent I've noticed they're novices. They always do it the first time.

SPEAKER_02

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Hopefully grandparents get it better.

SPEAKER_02

So there have been times that we've probably done that better than other seasons, life gets busy, stuff like that. But um, I just think that the regular practice of just connecting with kids in the rhythms of life where you can to have that be a feature of your day is just a helpful thing. So I've shared before, like driving to school was always a big thing for me for with my kids because it's an intentional time to like, hey, we're just in the car, we're gonna do some scripture memory or something like that. Um, nighttime, you know, reading it's just a practice that a lot of parents do, anyways, and it's like a cool thing to be able to say, Hey, we're gonna do this book or this. Um Yeah, I just think consistency and just regular rhythms of of engaging with your kids in spiritual content, the Bible, yeah, scripture reading, scripture memory, Bible stories. Yep, just all of that is good.

SPEAKER_00

I want to circle back into something that you said though, because you create rhythms and you run on those for a while and then the season changes. Yeah. And one of your kids joins an athletic team, or just the schedule changes, and the rhythm that you established gets bumped for a minute, or maybe even for a little while. Yes. And it um it doesn't help the parents to beat themselves up over the fact that they were really disciplined about something and then they got off the rails. It just like, hey, that happened, and just pick back up. Yep. And uh there's no sense. I I find parents sometimes doing that because they'll they'll go to a retreat or to a camp and they'll really come home with a a commitment to to be more engaging with their kids and they run on that really well for a while. Yeah, and then life just happens and you miss it a few days, and then you're like, oh, we haven't done that for a couple weeks. There's no sense beating yourself up with that, just realize that happens and pick back up and run for another rhythm, run for another season.

SPEAKER_02

And sometimes too, it's helpful to do um time-specific goals that are shorter term. Sure. Sometimes it's just more successful. So maybe it's like, hey, this summer we're gonna go over this when we can, you know, and it's you pick a season and you work on something and then you establish some other goal or or whatever it is. I think that that stuff has it's been helpful for us because you know, I don't I don't think there's anything that we've maintained consistently in terms of one specific thing, it's it changes as it goes. So that's a big part of it. And there's just so many great resources out there. Um like, you know, I know early on it was like uh we Jesus Storybook Bible was great for kids at certain points, and as they get older, there's other things you can start to do that's kind of cool. And um more recently, we have a thing where our kids have all have like really good Bibles now, and they'll have areas where they can make their notes or whatever and stuff like that. And as they you get older, that becomes kind of a fun thing, and you can or a habit, a practice habit. And so, anyways, just different practices are good. Um but yeah, I I would just say consistency, having your life oriented toward, hey, we we just are followers of Jesus who want to teach our kids about the the Christian faith and scripture and just having just little rhythms. There's a book right now, um my favorite this month is a book called The Things He Has Made, I think it's called This is for little ones. Oh, all right, but really great book. Yeah. Uh basically it takes the the verse, was it uh in Romans 1 about uh his invisible attributes, namely divine power, yeah, and um yeah, are are made manifest in the things he has made. So every page of the book is like it talks about like it's a it's rhythmic, so it's like a it's it's poetic, so it rhymes. But it'll talk about like it's a tracks the story of these kids on like this family trip. And so like they'll go to the ocean and they'll talk about all the creatures and stuff, and then it says at the end, Jesus loves me, this I know, for the oceans tell me so. And then if you look at the the art art, the drawing, which is really cool, they hide somewhere on the page a really tiny verse, and then you open the verse and it talks about you know God's creation of the sea creatures and the oceans, and so it every page has like a little Easter egg, so the kids will look for the verse and it'll take you to scripture and you can read it. And it I don't know. It's been a really cool book. That is cool. So it's neat. Yeah, the things he has made. So that's my that's my this month recommendation. Kids' book probably ages four to ten. I don't know, nine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know, the other interesting, and again, this is seasonal, this comes with rhythm, family rhythms. Um, because I I I want to recommend um just a family meal time.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because just that time around the table, and you just are talking about life and school and all sorts of stuff, and just if you're God-oriented as a family or moving that direction, you you can bring those conversations are just healthy and valuable. So just normal times around the table, but uh value of mealtimes together is huge. But um though that's a rhythm in a season two. I remember times they were in our life raising four kids, and um, there were times where it was the evening meal, and then there's times like, nope, we have to do it breakfast because of you know, band and track is on the road, football and anyways. But those that that is like riding in the car, you're you're all in the car going to school. Right. Family meal time isn't just another one of those times where you're together and can talk about life and a variety of things and how uh how God weighs into that. Anyways, you you picked up on the fact that Paul's writing into Timothy, and Timothy had been influenced by his mother and grandmother. Lois and Eunice. Yeah, also interesting that um father is not mentioned. Well, we often talk about the significant influence of certainly of a father, but obviously um a mother and a grandmother was instrumental in Timothy's life.

SPEAKER_02

Acts 16, I think, makes it clear too that his Timothy, when it introduces him in Acts, he's his mother is a Jew, his father is a Greek. So I mean, presumably his father was not maybe oriented toward in the same way toward the faith. I mean, obviously, so so Timothy would have been raised with the Jewish scriptures, which is unique, um, especially for the formation of when the New Testament books were written. So his mom and grandmother would have taught him the Jewish scriptures and he would have grown up in a Jewish community.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

At some point, became aware of, probably even in Paul's ministry after his first missionary journey, but would have become aware of the gospel and then would have already had that foundation, which also there's so many things we could talk about, but I love how Paul says that those scriptures make you wise towards salvation in Jesus. I think in that context, he's talking about the Old Testament scriptures, which point to Jesus. That's what he had. That's what he would have. So the Old Testament is what brings the wisdom and the knowledge of who Jesus is and the gospel, you know, it's point all pointing to Jesus, which is super cool in and of itself. Very much. But um, yeah, for you know, I guess I kind of have always kind of just presumed that his dad maybe was somewhat disconnected, at least at some point in his life.

SPEAKER_00

Or at least not influential as his mother and grandmother were.

SPEAKER_02

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And so so that's just really significant. And how cool, and that their their names are forever etched in in scripture.

SPEAKER_00

It is interesting to think you also, Timothy is living in at a time where the uh the rest or the New Testament is being written. Correct. So the scripture they would have had was the Old Testament. They would have had the gospel and the fact that Christ has come and crucified and raised from the dead, and he's the salvation that God promised and then provided. But they could use the Old Testament scripture completely as their scriptures, and it was sufficient.

SPEAKER_02

And this being the last of Paul's letters, also, Second Timothy, would would also suggest that at the time of his writing, there are books now being circulated, you know, um that are being acknowledged as scriptures.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So anyway.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we haven't got to the key verse yet. The key verse really is all scripture is breathed out by God and is profitable for teaching and reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Um, we did we did get some conversation or not conversations, we got some questions from the congregation.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

We did. And they were good. And uh yes, uh, so we'll we'll press into a few of them. Uh, a couple of questions revolved around the canon of scripture or the books of the Bible. Uh, along the lines of, you know, how do we know what books were God breathed? How do we know what books were not God breathed? You know, they they how do we know which books got into the scripture, which books are left out? Also, to go along with that, and we'll talk about this for a minute. Uh, how do we respond to other people that we run into that hold to other books that they believe should be in the canon, particularly like the Apocrypha, the Roman Catholic Bible has the Apocrypha books in it. So, uh, any conversation that we want to have on that, we'll take a minute to talk about maybe how that canon came together, why why we hold the 66 books, sure, why we don't hold the other books, yeah. We can how we respond to those who do.

SPEAKER_02

There it's that's a this could be a really long, big conversation.

SPEAKER_00

It could be a seminary class.

SPEAKER_02

And also To be entirely honest, you know, um, I would I would have to put time into there's a lot of history and there's a lot of things that you'd want to unpack through that. Um first of all, I think that to start with, and I know it's a kind of a multiple part question, so um, I do think that for you know, scripture part of it is it wasn't one of the things that you'll often read when you read, and they're great books and resources, and we'll we'll talk about that in a minute for people to do their own study on this. Is uh I think the Christian perspective isn't that you know, people I people chose the books that were included in the Bible, but they recognized which books were of God and authoritative, they were widely accepted by the church, they were, you know, at least with the New Testament, they were connected to the apostles and their ministry and teaching. And it was just a recognition of hey, these are the books that are our scripture.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Throughout that process, what's interesting is obviously you have like the the Catholic Church has uh 15 additional books or whatever.

SPEAKER_00

Um largely from that intertestamental period.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but it would be between the 400 years between the Old and the New Testament. So that intertestamental period, you had these books. So so like to to begin, I guess I would say you have you have uh the Hebrew Bible, which is the Old Testament that we have, um, those 39 books, they would be arranged a little differently and compiled a little differently. So some are are are grouped kind of into one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So in terms of the number, it's a little different. But all those books would be represented in the Old Testament, and those were already accepted. You know, the Jesus even makes reference to he kind of quotes them, quotes them, references them, but even also talks about the br the the breadth of them, and and a few there's a moment where he talks about kind of from the very beginning to the end, and he's kind of he's listing the bookends of the Hebrew Bible. Oh, yeah. So those 39 books were already accepted. Um the intertestamental period, there are books that were written by the Jewish community that were well known, that were read. Um again, without maybe taking too much of a deep dive, and you might have thoughts on this. Um, I wouldn't say any of those books are bad or evil or anything. I think there's there's value uh to some of those books in terms of what was viewed as scripture. So canon would be hey, this is God breathed. The law, yeah, the law is God breathed.

SPEAKER_00

The standard is better.

SPEAKER_02

Uh very early on, and the the uh church, uh even guys as early as like guys like Athanasius had a list of all the 27 books in the New Testament that were included. And so you had these books that were recognized very early and they were just widely accepted. Um the Apocrypha, some people call it even that the Deutero Canon. The word Apocrypha means hidden. So what's interesting about that is I think some of that early formation is that you had people who had these books, so even the word Deutero canon, which is I think some some of what the Catholics call it, but it's like another canon, those were always kind of in a separate category in and of itself. And in the early kind of formation of the church, the the word apocrypha got brought in because there were there were parts of those books that were like, hey, that's not really that's not your meat and potatoes, that's not essential, that's not primary. Secondary, they were always secondary as it was. Yep, and that's even the word deuter, that's what it means, secondary. So it so those books became um were embraced as kind of being not primary, they're adjacent to the scripture. Adjacent to the scripture. Yep. Um now again, you have things uh the Vulgate. So you guys like Jerome, for example, would have embraced certain certain books as scripture, but he had wrote written the Latin Vulgate, which became for a thousand years kind of the main thing. He included those books, but he had even himself said they were secondary. But through that process and through history, you know, eventually, I think it was the late 1500s, you know, during the the Council of Trent, which would have been the Protestant Reformation, that's when the Catholic Church doubled down on those books. Doubled down on those books and said, Hey, these are scripture. So again, we may have some some Catholics who are listening who might have some some thoughts on that or uh push back a little bit. But my my take would be I hold that the 27 books, you know, I come from a Protestant tradition, 27 books, which everybody embraces of the New Testament. Of the New Testament, the 39 books of the Old Testament. I would consider those canon, uh, scripture, God breathed. I think the apocryphal books or deuterocanonic canonical books, whatever you want to use, have value. Um, were certainly read and understood by many people in the early Christian community, um, but I wouldn't put those in the same category. Um, and even throughout the history of the church, those have always kind of been debated, second tier, kind of those things. Long history of that. Long history, right? And that's what I mentioned, all the way up until the Council of Trent was when that happened. So so there's a lot more um that could be discussed on that. I've got a book I put over here.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of published material on this. Oh, this is tons, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Tons, tons, tons. Well, and I think the other thing too is you then even get to like you have, I think someone one of the questions was about the Ethiopian Bible. Yeah. That of all the so that's uh on the Orthodox side, because there's books in the Eastern Church that are also embraced, that's the one, you know, kind of um branch of Christendom that has the most books, and it has like the book of Enoch in there.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. So then you have that. Yeah, because Jude quotes Enoch. Because Jude quotes it.

SPEAKER_02

But again, but it's not in our Bible. Right, and and Paul doesn't he he quotes pagan writers. You know, so the point is just whether or not just because it's quoted, just because it was recognized, doesn't necessarily mean that you put in that category. Um the last thing I'll say about this, and you can feel free to jump in and share a lot.

SPEAKER_00

You've shared a lot. This is great. This is good, good stuff. Hopefully, we're answering the question.

SPEAKER_02

Hopefully, is that there is this sense, and I remember I remember when I I read the Da Vinci Code when that was very popular because my friends were reading it, and I wanted to go, hey, what what is this book about? What's it what's it suggesting? And it's kind of this idea that the the church is hiding truths and not revealing stuff, and you know, that somewhere in the Vatican there are these really lost books that should be there, or we might uncover some gospel of whoever that we dig up in the sand, and that should be scripture too. What's so unique about that? First of all, that's it's it's fiction, and it sells books, which is which you know, it's uh probably makes for a good read, but it's not truthful, and I think it's not helpful. Um, the other thing about it is that even if we found a book from the end of the first century, written buried in the sand, and we're like, oh my goodness, it's the gospel of whoever. Yeah, or there already is one of those, but some other name, you know, gospel of whoever. Um the fact that you found one of them tells you that the early church didn't embrace it. You literally have in the New Testament alone, what, six thousand fragments and pieces and like the evidence, the the manuscript evidence evidence is so robust and significant that that to find one means that nobody thought it was actually valuable. The the books that the things that we're finding from scripture were so copied and repeated because everybody from the first century, and we even read it in the internal evidence I talked about on that Sunday, it was viewed as scripture. What Peter was writing, Paul viewed as scripture, you know, uh or stated as such. He quotes Luke and or yeah, or uh Peter does it for Paul. My point is just this is viewed as scripture, and so it was widely copied and embraced. So if you find a book in the middle of the desert, it means nothing because there are plenty of people that wrote all sorts of things, Gnostic things, gospels, all sorts of the Bible wasn't the only thing written at that time. All things were being written, and a lot of it was borrowing from the Christian faith or syncretistic with some other pagan beliefs. And so you may find something that has no bearing. It's it's what was embraced by the early church, circulated and and and recognized as scripture. That's what matters. And so I think the canon is closed. I don't think there's any new books that will pop up. I think it's very clear, uh, even in the book of Hebrews, that uh he has spoken definitively. There's no need for a final word. Yeah, and what we have is accurate, reliable. Um we have a long history in this.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. This is yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So a book, uh Journey from Text to Translations is a good one. Great book. Um I that's uh I've been a fan of that one for a long time. Um, so is it Paul Wagner that has that one? Um there are other books you can get on the whole topic, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The one thing I would comment, uh, and again, we could you we could spend a lot of podcasts on this very topic. And uh but if you you know we we uh the Deuteronomy books, the Apocrypha, uh you can take a uh Roman Catholic Bible and um lead someone to faith in Jesus Christ because it has all the Old Testament books, it has the New Testament, you know what I mean? So so uh there's less uh value in wrangling um over the text instead of using the text to point people to Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, all the books in my Bible are in a Roman Catholic Bible, and the even even like I mentioned, even the things that are debated, I don't think they're evil books. Yeah, that's not my take at all. I just don't recognize them as being breathed out by God. A Roman Catholic would.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't think it's uh I don't think it's something that's worthy of doing too much battle over, if that makes sense. Getting a heat argument over because again, we can agree on the things that are you know mutually in both or our Bibles and open the scriptures that are in both and I yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's really interesting, and I I realize the history piece to you, I'm not an expert on that. But like I mentioned, guys like Athanasius, he had the 27 books in his list, and he's you know, he was there at the Council of Nicaea, so he's very early on, and all 27 books of of my Bible and the New Testament were in his list. Yeah, so it's really interesting. So there's a there's a long history of the 27 books in the New Testament and the 39 in the Old Testament being scriptures.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and those councils were affirming what was already recognized, they weren't making decisive you know necessarily decisive action.

SPEAKER_02

Nope. Um and there's all sorts of stuff you can also hear about that's not like I remember a long time ago hearing, you know, the Council of Nicaea, they sat down and they debated which books were in the Bible. That actually didn't happen. That's that was like a I think it was like a medieval legend or story. That's not what Nicaea was about at all. It was about the Arian heresy. That's what it was about, you know.

SPEAKER_00

But dealing with the Trinity.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, another question, we'll move on. Another question that was asked, uh uh a couple of them, uh, a couple from the congregation, uh, because you brought up in the middle of your message how people can take, can make up a view of God that's not necessarily supported by the scripture and and hold to that and ultimately develop a view of God that's only in their own mind. Yeah, it's not supported by the scripture. You actually reference that as idolatry, uh, the matter of fashioning an image of God and um of who we think God is and what he's like, and we fashion that image in our own thinking, and then we end up worshiping that and propagating that, and and you again label that as is idolatry. So a couple questions related to that. If a false version of God can be held and worshipped as an idol, you know, in our own thinking, our own imaginations, then can a whole religion become an idol when it's built around a false version of who God is and what God is like? That's one of them. And there's another related question was, you know, how do we determine uh what is true about God and what's just a man-made uh idol, a man-made propagation of our own thoughts?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I think I think we'd had several questions that came in one and a lot of them were were lumped together. So I know that that can answer some of it. So I so in the message itself, I was really leaning into the idea of people who, in their own thinking and from the their experience of culture, derive these thoughts about what they view as, you know, so and we probably ought to be clear because some of those thoughts can even be biblical thoughts, but they can be absolutized. Sure.

SPEAKER_00

Where they disregard other truths of God. And so they so they have a there it's true, but it's not complete.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it removes God's complexity and it makes God a very narrow, small.

SPEAKER_02

Elevating aspect an aspect of God's attribute or not.

SPEAKER_00

And then others get discompleted because they're not absolutized, they get disregarded entirely. So that would be a part of that. We have a loving God. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that's we have a loving God. Yeah. Justice is not right exactly. Yeah. Or judgment. Um yeah, so I think to go back to that, I I think you could have a whole system of belief that is idolatry if that system of belief is has departed from Scripture. Scripture is the the guide, the rudder that keeps us in the right direction. One of the questions also is about, you know, interpretation. There's different interpretations of things, and I know that was part of it too. And I think while that's certainly true, that that um they have different, you know, there are different interpretations on things, for the most part, um, scripture is abundantly clear on what is essentially truthful and even gospel-centered. I think that you know, I talked a little bit about orthodoxy. There is uh um even across some of the Christian denominations, you know, we've got a Lutheran church in town and we do some things and believe some things that are a little different than the Lutheran church, but in terms of the things that we hold as primary things, they're the same for the most part across Christendom, in terms of what's orthodox, what's viewed as you know, Jesus rose from the dead. When we begin to depart from things like that, uh or Jesus not being God, which there are some uh religions, I'm not gonna say it's a it's a fundamentally different religion that would ascribe the value of Jesus but but deny his divinity, that that is not Christian to me. And that would be outside of the realm of what's orthodox. And so I would say that's a whole system of belief, yeah, that's that's built around something that's not true. That's a lie.

SPEAKER_00

So I think it can happen. So it becomes a unique idolatry, idolatrous religion. It's an idolatrous religion. Yep, it would be it's worshiping a god that doesn't exist apart from their fashioning. Sure.

SPEAKER_02

And you know, um, I mean, I guess I'll be explicit things like Jehovah's Witness, uh, their take on Jesus. It's it's a different Jesus than I have. And so when you deny the divinity of Jesus, that's significant. Um, and there are other uh religions that would say that they're connected to Christian, the Christian faith, and but yeah, I would I would say that that's an issue. Now you do have when it comes to like I mentioned, like there's a Lutheran church in town, and the way that we you know, we do, believers baptism, they do pay-baptism, infant baptism. Though you have some areas in in um in the Christian in practice, or even in some theology that would be secondary or tertiary issues. Important, but not primary. Yep. That you may not have the same level of fellowship in terms of, hey, we're doing the same things, but you wouldn't necessarily say, you know, that's not Christianity. Or even throwing out the word idolatry in that level. I think I think interpretation, there are there are to be fair, there are ways to interpret, you know, we talk about the spiritual gifts, for example. There are Christ-centered churches that have a more charismatic perspective. We would depart we would not have that same view, but we also wouldn't say anathema, like you said. We wouldn't, you know.

SPEAKER_00

They're not a a brother and sister in Christ.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right, exactly. So I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00

That's good. Do you have thoughts on that? No, I just I I'm just thinking through this whole message on the scripture um and the reliability of it and uh the fact that it's inspired and God breathed out. It does bring up a couple of uh additional thoughts that we need to interact on. Uh, the matter of interpretation. How do we you've already started to touch on that? Yeah. How do we go about properly handling the word of God? So this is God's word. How do we there are different interpretations for different texts? So, how do we interpret the scripture? What are the some some of the rules that guide that? And then, and then second, to go along with that is you, as you're preaching, you regularly bring up the context. And so, what are you using to uh beyond the scripture even to to know the context of so two things interpretation and context?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so for me, I mean there's a a number of things. Obviously, you go to to school, you have some education on how to do that well and how to handle rightly handle God's word. So hermeneutics is the big fancy word for how you study your Bible. Yep. So things like that. Um, and they have you know all sorts of techniques, the hermeneutical spiral and all that stuff they talk about when you go to school. But I think the biggest thing, one of my biggest takeaways, at least for for me, that's significant is that God has chosen to reveal Himself through literature. It's alive, it's living, it's active, it's breathed out by Him, but it's also it's written. So it's not it's not subject to change tomorrow. It will be the same tomorrow because it's it's written. It is it has been communicated that way. At the same time written in known languages, written in known languages, but also written in ways that uh communicate truths that are consistent with the way that literature communicates truth. I don't know if that makes sense. So it's like they're just basic practices where um if you're studying any subject, you know, you you you employ the the same techniques for the most part as you would with scripture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So if I'm so if I bought a house last November and we're clearing out the attic and we find a box of letters that were written 150 years ago, we pull that letter out and we can read it. Yep. It's in a language, it's in a language that I can read and understand. I can read the letter. There's ways I would interpret the letter based on how letters are read. And the better I know the author, the better I know the recipient, the better I know the time frame, the better the things I can learn from the letter. There's ways I would read the letter to understand.

SPEAKER_02

And the letter is a great example because this is a letter.

SPEAKER_00

So even just using the New Testament epistles are letters.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. So we know we know who Timothy is based on what the Bible tells us in the book of Acts. We know who Paul is, we know the situation Paul was in. He's probably in Mamurtime prison. It's the end of his life, he's ready to be executed, he's just the last letter. Timothy is probably in Ephesus still, and he's communicating these truths for him to shepherd well and pastor well, a church that has some challenges. And so you you you begin to employ all those things, and you you then extrapolate those truths based on doing those typical methods like you talked about the letter. It's a little different if you're reading something apocalyptic or whatever, right? So you just but sometimes the fallacy is that, oh man, this was written for me, and you were gonna we're gonna compartmentalize that one verse and pull it out of context. And it's like, I think the Bible is for me, but it wasn't written to me, it was it's for me. And for for me to understand how it's for me, I understand I need to understand who it was written to and how why they wrote it and what was going on, and you just employ those normal techniques. And so I think I think for the most part, if you believe this is scripture, if you believe it's God breathed, and it's authoritative, um, and you hold to that view and you employ the basic practices of interpretation, for the most part, you're gonna land in the same area by and large on the majority of things. It's when you begin to go, oh, I don't think that Paul is really scripture, you know, or whatever, that you start to have all these.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Uh well, a huge portion of the Bible is narrative, right? It's story. Right. And so again, you read that in a particular way. Some of it is not prescriptive. Right. It's descriptive, it's telling you what happened. So it doesn't necessarily apply to my life. There are principles you can draw from it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But there are various uh portions of the scripture. You have, you know, you have history, you have poetry, you have wisdom literature, you have the gospels, which are unique.

SPEAKER_02

Um or even the law, like we've talked about that before. You have the law, but you have commandments to Israel. Yeah. And then you understand that, and then it just it just that's all part of the process.

SPEAKER_00

So, I mean, there's there's tools that we apply to various uh genres of scripture. Uh, but again, um someone who doesn't know those tools can pick up their Bible and read it. It's in a language they can read and understand. Thank thank the Lord for those reformers who put it in our language, put it in English. Um, there are parts of it that are difficult. Yes. And we acknowledge that. The Bible acknowledges that. There's parts of the scripture that are difficult. You can you read those, they're still profitable. Sometimes as you're reading through the Bible, questions are raised in your in your mind. Sometimes those questions come are and the answers come way later in the Bible. Yeah. Like there's some questions raised in the Old Testament that aren't answered till the New Testament. And uh so there's a a matter of just keep reading, you know, keep reading.

SPEAKER_02

Uh well, and you mentioned too the it's a big fancy word, but the perspicuity of scripture would say that there's a sense in which the Bible is also understandable. Like you don't you don't think you need to be a seminary level scholar to at a baseline understanding, recognize who Jesus is and what he's done.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, I I'll steal from Alistair Begg. He always said the the the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things. There there are things in there that are difficult, we get it, but they're often not the the main things. And uh so that's good. Uh yeah, so as I think through interpreting scripture, grammar matters. Uh history matters. Yep. And so you look at some of the historical context as well, but both of those are a big deal. Uh that that gets us into the final part of that, the matter of context. You spend some time in context. Some of the context is driven by the biblical text itself. Sure. So you were in 2 Timothy 3, um, and you talked the context, the context of Timothy and his grandmother, and uh the missionary journeys and when he was picked up. Some of that context is driven by the scripture itself. Some of it you pull from uh outside the scripture to get some of the historical context. Any particular tools that you find most helpful in that? Yeah, you might turn into that.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, one of the things I've often told people, so like I have right in front of me, this is just the ESV study Bible. Oh, that's a good one. It's a great study Bible. And I've had other study Bibles that are great as well. This is filled. I mean, if if you were to live on an island for your whole life and needed one thing, I might recommend something like that, right? Because you can, at the end, it's got all sorts of stuff on doctrine or things like that. But it, you know, one of the things I do when I go to approach a letter. So, for example, I've got a message I'm looking to prep for future in the series, one that I'm not it's a book I'm less familiar with. It's one of the minor prophets. Oh, yeah. Okay. So what I'm doing is the first thing I did uh yesterday afternoon was, hey, let me read the introduction to that book in my study Bible just to reorient my thinking around what this book was for, why it was written. Who is this guy? Who is this guy? You know, what was the context? What what was the history? What was happening at that point? And a lot of that stuff is available to people if they just get a really good study Bible. Yeah. Um, you know, there's also the internet better than Googling it. Yeah, yeah. The internet now has resources. Sometimes you just gotta be careful. It depends on what you like I mentioned. You know, you there's some places you go that are less trustworthy than others. So you just, you know. But a good study Bible is a great place to start. That's a great resource, I think. Um, if you want to take deeper dives, you can get things like commentaries. Again, get good commentaries, get ones that are reputable. Um, yeah, things like that. Some of the sometimes the um oh, even like uh I've people have been helped by like the Bible project uh book overview. Sometimes those can be helpful. Things like that are a nice way to just orient your you know, your thinking around stuff. But anyways, stuff like that. Good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sometimes the uh in that light, you know, the big Bible overview or the book overviews are really helpful. Um I've always encouraged people to read the entire book before you begin studying it, just get the whole book in mind. And uh people are sometimes challenged by that, but most of the books in the Bible are are readable in pretty short periods of time. So, anyways. Well, the point you made in your sermon uh regarding the scripture is it's inspired by God, instructive for the church, and intended for our maturity. And the big idea that you landed on was God doesn't leave us guessing. So don't forfeit the knowledge that God gave concerning himself for our benefit. Uh which a great, great uh points and landing place. Any other word on that before we move on to sermon number two?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm I'm it's a couple weeks back in your own.

SPEAKER_00

Inspired by God, instructive for the church, intended for maturity. God doesn't leave us guessing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think it's what a grace it is to us that we don't have to um try to figure out who God is. And I think one of the big points I wanted to put forward is there are there are places in the world right now where Bibles are being translated into languages where you know people currently don't have a Bible. Or you look at certain places where uh the Bible is outlawed in certain countries or cultures. Uh when people get their hands on a Bible who who desire to know who God is and who may maybe they're Christians or they're exploring the Christian faith, it is so um valued and treasured, and people recognize what they have, and it's um it's so available here.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, multiple translations, multiple good translations.

SPEAKER_02

But often for us, we just we've we fail to recognize what we have at our disposal. Yeah. And I think sometimes losing sight of that is part of my goal here is like, hey, we have something that's of God, He's breathed it out. Um for us to ignore it or not know it or not have any awareness of it, like we really have a good reason.

SPEAKER_00

We don't have to do that. No good reason.

SPEAKER_02

We should really orient ourselves. I think if if you're a follower of Jesus, you should commit yourself to the scriptures. Yeah. Uh on some frequency and regularity, at least to know uh what God has said.

SPEAKER_00

Your your comment makes me think through Alevi and Robin Lenz, they're missionaries that this church supports. They went to Papua New Guinea, they've been there more than two decades now. Yep. And uh, but the fascinating thing about that is they went, they learned the language, learned the culture, lived among the people, communicated the gospel, planted a church, have now translated the scripture in the Wagi language, now has a New Testament in their own language. That's so huge. Right. Like in the list of world languages in 2025, another box was checked. The the Wagi people now have their own Bible. It's just oh massive. Well, it's great to be a part of it as a church, to be supportive of that and then to see that happen. But to acknowledge, like, oh man, there's a language that now has a Bible.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. And uh and what's crazy about that is in Papua New Guinea alone, I think there's what, 800 distinct languages or something crazy like that. So you're just like they're knocking them down. They're knocking them down, yeah, one by one. You know, but it's just amazing to think that there are places where people in their mother tongue they still have no Bible. Right. Crazy.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, we're fortunate. Let's pivot to sermon number two, which was this past Sunday sermon.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I remember that a little better.

SPEAKER_00

Romans 8 28. Uh, just so we're all on the same page. The the verse says, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. Both you and I memorize that in a different translation, so it words a little differently, same message though. Um If God works all things together for good, as the verse says, does that mean that all things are good?

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_00

You hear yeah, you hear Christians spinning that sometimes, like, oh, it's just all good. And it's not true. Evil things are still evil, bad things are still bad. Yep, God has an ability and his sovereignty and his providence to use even that which is evil for good, right? But it doesn't make the evil good. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think the the translation helpfully retains this idea of God is working together, you know, all things work together for good. The result is God's ultimate plan being fulfilled, which is a good plan and good purposes. And I shared in the message there's I think, based on the context, the trajectory for where that really is fully and finally seen is new creation, redemption, or resurrection. Ultimate good. It's ultimate good. But yeah, the the things in and of themselves are not inherently necessarily good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you used in your sermon the story of Joseph, which is a great illustration of that. Obviously, his brothers who were evil, sold him into slavery. Uh the things that happened to Joseph were not good. He was lied against, put into prison, forgotten, left in prison longer, uh, rises to power uh through God's providence. Um but then his brothers come to him and and Joseph acknowledges what they meant for evil, God used for good for the saving of many lives. But even after their father dies, the brothers, even though they've been forgiven, acknowledge what we did was evil.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and maybe now we're gonna get it. Right. They're concerned. So so they still acknowledge that what they did was not right. So even God took what was not right and used it for ultimate good. Yep. It's interesting to know that. So that means as Christians, we still lament, we still mourn, we still experience that which is evil and not good.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we don't have to spin those things and say that they're somehow good in them in that moment. No, we can yeah, we can recognize them rightly for what they are, but have the confidence that God is not wasting the experiences that we have in life, He's going to use them and and uh and for ultimate good. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that's a really helpful way to do I I many years ago preached on the topic. I borrowed this illustration from somebody else, and so I can't remember at the time who I borrowed it from.

SPEAKER_00

I we borrow lots of material.

SPEAKER_02

Hopefully, I credited it back then, but it's the the biscuit analogy. I think I I've shared. I even had someone kind of we played it out on the stage, but it's this idea of like the ingredients for biscuits, in and of themselves, are often terrible. You know, if I were to take all alone, if I were to chug some buttermilk right now, it's my grandfather used to like buttermilk. It is disgusting to me to drink that by yourself, by itself is often not supposed to be done that way.

SPEAKER_00

Right?

SPEAKER_02

Flour, salt, you know, all these different ingredients just by themselves um are not necessarily good. But when you work them together, there's a there's a good result. Biscuits are wonderful, right? And so it's it was a good illustration, but um I think that that captures well the point here. And and Paul certainly has in view in the all things that many of those all things are not good. There's that's suffering, yeah, evil, hardship, challenge.

SPEAKER_00

Thinking about that, we as you acknowledge in your message, we currently live in a fallen world marked by all kinds of difficulties, hardships, and even death. Because of that, we groan, we sigh, we lament, we weep with those who weep, uh, all of that. Uh, in the scripture that uh you referenced Sunday, Romans eight, uh creation groans, we groan, the spirit groans. Uh, in those trials, we sometimes go through grief that uh is heavy and huge, and it doesn't make sense. And it's so heavy to the point where we don't even know how to pray. Yeah. And and and don't know what to pray for. Uh But you commented in the scripture how the Holy Spirit prays for us. So we're groaning under the whatever whatever it is that we're enduring, we're groaning. And it says the Spirit prays for us with groans that you know words can't express. Yeah. Uh so how how does how does it land on you that the Spirit of God is actually groaning as you're groaning and praying for you?

SPEAKER_02

It's awesome. I think I mentioned almost unfathomable. It is. I think it's Moose commentary, which is right there. Um I think I mentioned to you there's a he made the comment about how it's it appears as if Paul is even suggesting that our groanings become the groaning of the Spirit as he intercedes for us. It's almost like he there's a sense in which what we're going through identifies with us. It's not lost on the Holy Spirit. He is aware of what we're going through and he he he almost embraces that on our behalf, which is man, there's a we could go in a whole rabbit hole about how cool that is. There's a I didn't even put in the message. I think I mentioned it to you when I was prepping. The word that's used for groaning there in Romans 8, that's repeated three times, it's also used, I think, in Mark's gospel. There's a moment where Jesus encounters a man who's blind, and Jesus looks up to heaven, and he it's the text is he groans, but it's a sigh, it translates a sigh, but he groans and then heals the man. It's almost in that text as if Jesus is so identifying with the brokenness of the world, and you know, he weeps with those who weep. He, you know, with Lazarus is a good example of that, but he there's a groaning that Jesus has because of the sinful world that we're in, that this man is blind and what he's going through, and then he heals he groans and then heals him. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, oh yeah. So, anyways, it's a whole it's a whole well Hebrews re just refers to uh Jesus' humanity that way and that he endured all things that we endure. Yeah. And so he's not un, he's not unfamiliar with our with our grief.

SPEAKER_02

And well, I think that on every level, which is remarkable. So the spirit is aware, knows what we're going through, it's not lost in him. He intercedes on our behalf.

SPEAKER_00

Even when we can't intercede for ourselves, we don't even know what to pray for.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, and there are pray. And how many times are there in life where we're like our we throw our hands up, we're overwhelmed, we're you know, the burdened that even the words to utter to express what we're truly going through are lost on our lost in the spirit, though. Yeah, he he with with the groanings that are deeper than words, he intercedes on our behalf. And uh it's just cool to know that we have we have an uh an advocate in the spirit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, let's keep pressing into that because in Romans 8, it eight twenty-six it talks about the fact that the Holy Spirit prays for us. Same passage, 834, references that Jesus prays for us. Uh, and then in James 5, other passage, we're instructed to pray for one another. So we have the Holy Spirit praying for us, Jesus prays for us, we're we pray. Yeah, you know, just the fact that the members of the Godhead are praying for us and we are praying for ourselves and for one another, it how does that influence even your praying, your thoughts toward prayer, your engagement in prayer?

SPEAKER_02

It's comforting. I'll start by saying that. It's that's one of the biggest, but the probably the most overwhelming response to that is well boy, what a comfort because I know my my my prayer life often feels insufficient and inadequate because of not having exhaustive knowledge, not you know, all the things, or even just fatigue, you know, it's kind of like the the uh I'm I'm a finite creature. And so I I um to know that the spirit and the son are interceding. And even Hebrews is pretty cool because it talks about the fact that Jesus, you know, we know that Jesus rose from the dead, he ascended, um, he's at the right hand of the Father, but but there he always lives to make intercession for us. He is our great high priest who is right there, right next to the Father, interceding on our behalf, always. He always lives to make intercession. It blows my mind. Yeah. But to think that we have the Spirit who who intercedes and the Son who intercedes continuously on our behalf, it's comforting because I think um we, yeah, in our insufficiency, in our weakness, um, we have we have the Godhead who is working on our behalf. How cool is that! Oh, yeah. I don't know, just incredible.

SPEAKER_00

But one of the things that came to mind as I was thinking through that is you know, we often pray in community. You know, that the staff meet on Tuesday and part of our meeting, and together we pray together. The elders meet a couple times a month and we pray together when we meet. Uh people pray together in community groups and you know, growth groups. They they we get together and we pray with one another. But there are times when we pray all alone. And when I pray all alone, it's not a solitary exercise. The Holy Spirit is praying. Jesus, that that's just an incredible thing. I never pray alone, and that's remarkable to think that I'm not the only one praying about this. That's so cool. Yeah, it's just pretty remarkable. It really is. Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Uh continuing the conversation, how should the promise of ultimate good? Because you did direct the text, you know, where God is working all things together for good for those who love him or are called according to his purpose, and you talked about that trajectory of uh we're heading toward ultimate good, which we cannot now begin to imagine. Sin is eradicated, right? Conformity to Christ, yeah, and then ultimately glowing. So we're we're heading to ultimate good, but how should that promise, because we're not experiencing it now, we're not there, we're not in the new heaven, we're not in the new earth. We still deal with sin. We deal with our own sin and the sin of others and its impact. But how does that promise of ultimate good, how should it shape our response to present sorrows? How do those work together?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I to go back to what you said before, I don't think that we need to pretend like present sorrows are actually really blessings that we just are not aware of. I think we can just bemoan the fact that life is happy. It is what it is, it's life is what it is, it's it's and that's part of the experience. And I think you even talked about in the Ecclesiastes series, life is typically more often has more good things than bad things, but sometimes those bad things can overshadow what's what we're going through that's good. And sometimes for some people, they're dealt a pretty heavy hand of of bad things. Is that just part of life? We can we can recognize it for what it is and not try to twist it into something it's not, yeah, but it enables us, I think, to endure our present sorrows and struggles in a far greater way to know that it's not um, it is not ultimate, it doesn't have the final word, it won't last forever. And even in those things, God is working in us something. I think even presently at times, the Paul talks about him identifying with Christ and being more familiar with Christ in his sufferings through Paul's sufferings. So there's so God is even using presently some of those things to shape us and mold us today uh into the people he desires us to be more and more conformed into the image of Jesus, and then in a more ultimate sense, we'll be, you know, completely image him is in our resurrection future resurrection. But I think like 2 Corinthians is uh one of my favorite passages when it talks about that, that our the things that we go through today, they're light and momentary afflictions compared to the surpassing greatness of what we can expect in glory. Um it's hard for me to grasp today that what what we're experiencing is light and momentary. It doesn't feel light.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

It's kind of like when Peter says, after a little while, it's like a little while, it seems like a long while. Yeah. But when you compare it with what's to come, it it's it's so overshadowed by what glory is. Those promises to me strengthen me, help me endure what I'm going through, and help me rightly orient my field of vision to say, hey, there's something beyond the horizon I don't fully see, but I know that's been promised to me, and and with the eyes of faith, I I know that that's that, that that that's true, and that helps me weather the the things I'm going through. I think it's a source of comfort, endurance, strength, yeah, hope.

SPEAKER_00

It's interesting when we go through and I'm not aware of either of us at the present moment are in a in a deep valley. We've been through them and we have more coming. But neither of us that I'm aware of are in any in any particular deep valley of of overwhelming grief and heaviness. Uh we've been there, and um but when we're in that situation where we don't even know how to pray, and we're because we're not even praying. It's just we're we're just crushed. It's a comfort to know the Holy Spirit prays for us. Jesus is praying for us. In those moments when it's uh a deep valley, heavy sorrow, tremendous grief, it's also a blessing to have a friend who will just say, It's not always gonna be this way because we lose sight of that. And you know, we lose sight of the ultimate good, the fact that you know, Christ who died and rose again is coming again, and and it won't always be this way. Right. This grief will one day be so far in the review mirror, it'll be forgotten, quite frankly. And so it's it's a blessing to have a friend to be like, yeah, no, it's it won't always be this way. Just that simple reminder. So good. Yeah. I just heard I just heard today, uh, just before the podcast, uh, my brother-in-law, his best friend, passed away this week. Oh, and I wasn't aware of that. That that that's kind of a heavy loss. It is a heavy loss. It's not kind of a heavy loss, it is. And it's just um helpful to have someone come along and say, you know, it's not always gonna be this way. There's coming a day when death will be no more. Right. And uh eternal life will be experienced in a in a real way.

SPEAKER_02

So it's awesome. You briefly touched on this because again, you kind of revisited the idea that we have the spirit who is praying for us, the son who's praying for us. It's also interesting when you get to the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is says, Your father knows what you need before you ask him. So it's like so when you think about the Godhead, you have you have situations in life where the spirit is interceding on your behalf, the son is interceding on your behalf, and the father's aware of it, yeah, even before you ask. It just yeah, boy, that's helpful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Just don't allow that to become an incentive for not praying. Yeah, it's not an inhibitor for prayer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the invitation is to pray, and when you pray, you're praying in community. Right. Yeah. Uh that ultimate good that we're heading toward not only is you know sin eradicated and we're with God and with Christ and with him forever in a in a new home uh of righteousness. Um, but the ultimate good also includes the fact that we will be like Jesus, we will see him and be like him. And so that trajectory that God has us toward is Christ-likeness. Um, if that's the trajectory, how should that influence our current thoughts like developing today in the character of Christ? Oh, yeah. Because I think sometimes when we think about Jesus and becoming like Jesus, uh we almost automatically have, and he is in a category by himself, he is God. And so we think, Man, I I'm not like that. Yes. And and we might think of things that he could do that we are, you know, miracles he could perform, things, things that are uh connected to his divinity that just are not ours.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But we are being conformed into his likeness and that we're being conformed in the character of Christ. Sure. And uh so how does that how does how should that influence our thoughts as it relates to our Christian living and just conforming our selves in the sense of you know becoming like Jesus?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. So some of this goes back to theology just a little bit, but kind of helping people grasp, you know, the we talk about salvation, that's a big blanket term which encompasses a lot of things. But included in our salvation, you know, there's a there's we're declared righteous. The moment we place our faith in Jesus, and you know, repent of sin, trust in Jesus, we're justified. That's the big word. We're declared righteous in God's sight. We become a Christian in that moment, and so you know, we have been saved, and that's that moment of justification. There is something in the middle here called sanctification, which is we're we're being saved, right?

SPEAKER_00

From the power of saving God by the grace of God, the grace that saves us is the grace that is saving us.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, we're growing in our faith, and so that sanctification is this saving work throughout the Christian life where we are you know um putting off these old practices and growing in conformity to Christ, and one day we will be glorified. So you have justification, sanctification, glorification. Justification happens in the moment of belief, sanctification happens throughout your Christian life, glorification happens when Christ returns and we're seeing are like him. So understanding that rightly helps us because it uh there are times where some people, you know, hey, we I can't, I can't be like Jesus. That that'll happen in the age to come. And so you kind of begin to overlook what it means to be in Christ. That we're we're we are little by little, day by day, being more and more conformed into the image of Jesus. God's purpose in our life today is to make us more like Christ. So we we should be growing, we should be being changed, we should be being shaped.

SPEAKER_00

And if Jesus told us the truth, yeah, and if he is right, then what he has said is for our good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's not it's not it's not for his primary benefit, it's for our primary benefit. Yeah, the that's that's abundant life. That's the way to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, just even even going his way of being uh truthful and considerate and kind and thoughtful and considering others and their needs and serving them. This is heading this is our best life. It is going that way is our best life. Exactly. We're not missing out, uh we're heading the right direction.

SPEAKER_02

But through that process of sanctification, you know, the conformity to the image of Jesus, you know, that verse 29, that is so ultimate conformity is when we are raised and we're like him and we see him as he is, like you said. But but it's not we don't just wait for that full when we're exactly patterned after Jesus. There is a progressive element to what it means to be in Christ today, and that's part of Paul's whole argument in that chapter of life in the spirit, and so um we should be living, walking with him, growing in that faith. And that's that's both uh uh an active and a passive thing. Our sanctification is active and passive, so we don't just sit back and let God grow us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we participate with God.

SPEAKER_02

We participate with God in that activity of our growth by his grace and through faith. Yep, we're only enabled to do it because of his grace and through the power of the spirit, but we're also we contribute toward that in that it's there's an effort that's given in our part toward maturing in Christ and learning more about him and growing and following him and engaging in the practices of you know spiritual disciplines and things like that.

SPEAKER_00

So there's another you didn't comment on this, you wouldn't have in your sermon, but there's another very familiar film familiar verse later in this very chapter, you know, when we talk about all things work together for good to those who love God or are called according to his purpose, and we talk about ultimate good that God is is securing. Um later in that very passage, it talks about the the fact that nothing will separate us from the love of God that is in Christ, and um which it it again goes back into that guarantee. This is God is God is finishing what he started, he's bringing this about. Yep. And uh, he'll be doing a good work and you will carry it on to completion of the day of Christ Jesus. And not even not even Satan can separate us from that. So good word. Yeah, good word. This has been a good series. Anything more you want to say about that verse before we uh we move on? No, it's a we've covered two sermons.

SPEAKER_02

It's a it's a great verse, and I'm thankful. It's been fun, it's been a fun series so far just to dip into the passages that people already know.

SPEAKER_00

It's been really good, uh, and I appreciate this. Uh, these are very familiar verses. I mean, these are really known verses, but every uh message, every sermon has been um uh fresh and like this is good. I I'm glad we're doing it. Um it's taking something that's very well known and pressing us back into that. And there's some uh benefit of pressing into that which is so familiar that we kind of lose sometimes the gravity of it. So I've it's been really good that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's been fun. So um we are going somewhere next. Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Romans 10, 9 and 10 this Sunday.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Very familiar verse.

SPEAKER_02

Very familiar verse.

SPEAKER_00

Um boy, if um people coming Sunday want to prepare for the message, the context is Romans 9, 10, and 11, because we're right in easy, easy chapters. One of the more challenging chapters in the book of Romans. Yeah. Uh they deal with a, you know, by way of a context, he's dealing with a specific thing in those chapters. And though that verse, Romans 10, 9, and 10, falls right in the middle of that bigger context. And uh so if they want to, you know, read in advance, Romans 10, 9, Romans 9, 10, and 11. And we're looking at Romans uh 9, 10. Romans 10, 9, and 10. Yep is where we're going Sunday. Cool. Should be good. Looking forward to it. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Well, um I guess this week, a lot of people might be traveling, doing things.

SPEAKER_00

It is a holiday weekend as well.

SPEAKER_02

And 250th celebration.

SPEAKER_00

Celebration. A lot of celebrations regarding that, which you might expect. So we'll celebrate the salvation that God has provided us in Christ here on Sunday morning and then celebrate uh the birth of our country after that. Yeah. And uh, but yeah, it'll be a good weekend. Uh also um I would uh highlight again, just uh use the um QR code at the end of the sermon to submit questions. That's helpful. Hopefully we uh if you got questions, submit them and we'll uh we'll bring them in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And people, especially in that first message, they yeah, we we put some of them together.

SPEAKER_00

Some of them are tricky, so yeah, but it's good. I hope we I hope we hit on them by way of the canon and interpretation and context and stuff. Good, real good. This has been good, Joe. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02

Me as well. Well, hey, everybody, again, thanks so much for listening to After the Amen, this two part segment. We hope to see you next week.