After The Amen

After The Amen - Ep. 36: "Jesus Saves"

• Jordan • Season 1 • Episode 36

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 55:43

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.


Linked Sunday: Jul 05, 2026

SPEAKER_00

Hello again, everybody, and welcome to After the Amen. This is the podcast segment here at Frank Mouth Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning sermon and we unpack it later in the week. And I'm joined by Pastor Mark Hazen, who was the preacher this last Sunday. Yeah. Well, doing well. How about you? I'm doing well. I just came off a little weekend away. So I'm got a little sun and enjoyed. Yeah, it was good. Good time away. Good time with family. So it was um busy, I think, everywhere people went, just because it was busy everywhere. Maybe Frank and Mouth.

SPEAKER_04

I I've discovered we stayed in town. A fair amount of number of people uh exit town, exit Frank and Mouth over the weekend. But I maybe would have had some runners here Saturday morning for the annual race.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, some people probably come to Frankenmooth, but you're probably right. Probably more people leave Frankenmouth than come.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know. That it didn't know. It was pretty quiet. It was surprisingly to go up and down Main Street on a Saturday and not very busy. Did you watch the fireworks? Oh, of course. Good show. Friday night. It was excellent. Yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_00

I'm trying to think. So we can watch the fireworks from like our front window. Oh, right. It's a distance, but we can see. I want to say, is that six times a year?

SPEAKER_04

Fireworks? Six or seven? I don't know. We've been here seven, eight months, and there's been a number of fireworks shows already. It's pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_00

Dog bowl, fireworks.

SPEAKER_04

New Year's Eve.

SPEAKER_00

We started New Year's Eve's Eve. Um Bavarian festival, maybe? Frank and Booth loves fireworks. I'm trying to think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think there's six or five or six. There ought to be a line item in their budget that says fireworks because we we have them. But different, different, different people put them on, right? Yeah. So it's not always the same group that's doing the fireworks.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah. I was at a lake and there's a uh homeowner who puts on an incredible show. All right. Like incredible. Like it rival. Anyways, it was fun. Yeah, good. Well, I'm glad you had some time away. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad that uh you you preached. It was awesome. Great message. I appreciate you preaching. We're continuing.

SPEAKER_04

We tackled an easy verse in a challenging context. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But I I trust we handled it all right. Yeah. And uh we're in the series uh Digging Deep, where we take some of the messages or the verses that people know pretty well and we revisit them and unpack them and look at them maybe in a different light. And I think that was probably the case for this text this last week, Romans 10, 9. Yep, Romans 10, 9 and 10.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, people have spoken highly of this series, which is interesting because it again, each week has been a very familiar, very popular, well-known verse. And it's just been good because I think uh, as you said at the beginning, often we are so familiar with those verses we fail to give any concerted thought to it. And we're doing that in this series. And I uh so far the feedback I'm getting from people who are participating in the series uh are really valuing it. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think too, the fun thing is for a summer series, it's kind of nice to step in and every week you have a fresh verse. It's not a continuous kind of you know, going through a book or something, which I enjoy going through books. I think that's really a helpful way uh to do sermon series. But in the summer it's kind of nice for people to be able to pop in and have a standalone that's connected to a verse and that's surrounding context. You obviously pressed into quite a bit of context for this message, context, yeah. Which we'll we'll get into in a little bit. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. So you're this verse was significant to you or at least your family. Sure. In that you shared a story in the beginning and started off by talking about your grandfather and your father and moving from Detroit to Mayville. Yeah. Your your dad grabbing a Gideon's Bible that someone handed him at high school, dropping it off on the counter.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And your grandfather picked up the that Bible, the crane operator, and just started reading through. Yeah. Got all the way to Romans 10, and that was the moment where he read the verse and uh trusted in Christ, committed his life to Jesus, and was came home a different man.

SPEAKER_04

It's a very interesting story because um, again, he would have gotten married, moved to Detroit largely for jobs. Uh he was a crane overhead operator, overhead crane operator in uh Zog Island. His wife would have been a Ford Motor Company, and I mentioned that on Sunday. But they moved to Detroit, there were jobs there, they'd have both come out of the Great Depression. Yeah. Um, but his prior experience as a youth with anything Christian would have been very negative. And I won't get into that story, but he would not have had a high view uh of Christians and would not have been raised in a Christian context, anyways, and so his exposure would not have been good. So he gets married, he has a child. Um it was quite a gap between my dad who was born and his siblings. Uh I think their their marriage was a bit rocky and wondering if it was even gonna persevere. Uh, but the fascinating thing with that is he just was an unchurched man, uh didn't have a Bible, hadn't read a Bible, had a low view of Christians, and then to you know, several years into that to move to Mayville and to pick up a Bible and stick in his pocket, and then begin to read that, and then to come to faith in Christ, almost apart from anyone's involvement.

unknown

Sure.

SPEAKER_04

You know what I'm saying? There's there's not a person who's sharing with him the gospel, he's literally just reading the Bible and reading it for himself, and then when he gets to this Romans, you know, uh 10 passage, coming to the understanding in his in his little crane booth that, yeah, Jesus was risen from the dead by God's power and he is Lord, it's not for malay. You know, no one led him in a sinner's prayer, no one he didn't walk an aisle, he didn't respond to a Billy Graham evangelistic server. So he just from preaching or just from reading the the Bible to come to faith is remarkable. And he genuinely changed man. I mean, from that point forward, as I said, started taking his family to church, his wife came to faith in Christ. Uh, my dad would have been uh in high school when he would have come to faith in Christ later. Um, it's funny, he was a real pain. He was uh he was known in that church as being a real pain in the high school because he's he's he doesn't know anything. Yeah. So in any classes or youth groups, he's asking tons of questions because he's got no foundation. Yeah. And so, but he comes to faith in Christ. And so that whole story literally is, as I said on Sunday, that's where God's grace rolled into our family tree. That's just huge.

SPEAKER_00

So did you have did you know your grandfather? Really well. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, really well. I had his funeral. Um, I had his funeral. I was trying to remember if that was in the late 90s or early 2000s. So uh he and his wife remained married, had three other children. Um, great guy. Yeah, yeah, and life really changed by the gospel. And he was always um just incredibly grateful for that. You know, that was just an interesting got involved in church right after his conversion, stayed faithful in church throughout the balance of his life, stayed married, um, and just as a non-educated, non-theological, just sunk some deep roots into God's word and just became a fantastic, well-loved Christian man. Cool. So, yeah, really, really neat.

SPEAKER_00

So your opening story didn't just set the table for for the verse. Oh, sure. Because obviously Romans 10, 9, and 10 is a is a central part of that story in many ways. But then you kind of pivoted from there and helped set up the context for Romans 9 through 11 by saying that you have five generations, yeah. Yeah, generations since then. Yep. Some of them clearly are followers of Jesus, believers. Some are, but not all. No. And that um faith or being a Christian is not something that's just genetically passed down, it's not just inherited. Yep. Um, so that was significant.

SPEAKER_04

So I mean any Yeah, I I think I think we say that and we know that. Sure. And we say that quite regularly, you know, just because your mom and dad are saved doesn't mean that you will be. And so I think we're pretty, again, like a familiar verse, we acknowledge that to be true, but at the same time, I think we we kind of expect it'll happen. We kind of expect just because grandpa and grandma are saved, that that faith is going to be passed down generation to generation, and it ought to be, and it's yes, and often it is too. Um and we expect it to be that way, uh, but we live also just with people and some who um reject the gospel and and refuse to uh uh to believe. And so it's kind of interesting because I said it in the message, it's not passed on genetically. I think it's like, oh yeah, of course. But on the other hand, we kind of think that's how it's going to happen.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Which was the the well, as I mentioned, the kind of the twofold way you connected it. It's the pivot to that Romans 9 through 11.

SPEAKER_04

If anyone should have believed, sure, who had way more advantages than even our Christian kids growing up in our country, would have been the nation of Israel, right? The people of Israel.

SPEAKER_00

And Paul, who is a Jew. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Brokenhearted always.

SPEAKER_00

Who came to faith in Jesus dramatically through his encounter on the Damascus Road, is reflecting on his kinsmen. Yeah. And largely their rejection of Jesus. Not ex not not totally, but largely. Yeah. And it's it's a bummer for him. It's he's bemoaning this. It's he's he's grieved by what he would he would have hoped would have been more fruitful recep reception of the gospel.

SPEAKER_04

And and he is laboring, giving it his all so that his kinsmen, as he says in the text, his brothers and sisters, the Israelites, would come to faith in Christ. Right. He wants them to hear the gospel, believe on Christ, and be saved. And um, so he makes the argument in the text that it's it's not God's fault that they're unbelievers.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Um, they are responsible for their response, but he's doing all that he can so that they might be even provoked to jealousy as Gentiles are coming into the faith and to see that and to say, oh man, they they who have not worked for this are coming into this relationship with God through Christ. And uh he even hopes that will inspire their their faith in Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

So you're making so the statement you made there, I'm just gonna latch on just for a second. You said, you know, it's it's not God's fault that they reject the gospel. However, one of the things that he presses into quite a bit in 9 through 11, and that became kind of a big feature, especially in the first half of the message, was in that section, Paul talks about election. Sure. And so election became part of um, yeah, kind of with the opening, you know, you're you're giving a context for your verse, obviously, which I I really appreciate because I'm a big fan of context. This is a letter that Paul wrote to the Romans, a church with Jews and Gentiles. He's pressed into the gospel and how all are lost and all are condemned, and and walk through this gospel, gets to nine through eleven, and begins to talk about his own people, his own people. Yeah. And part of that context is not it's not God's fault. Salvation is available to them.

SPEAKER_04

God has worked for their salvation.

SPEAKER_00

But then he also talks about election, which is like I said, a big part of it.

SPEAKER_04

So boy, there's there's we'll get no you if you have something you want to jump into. No, I just um he we and and we'll talk about this for sure, and even maybe some of your questions. The um Yeah, he does he does press into God's election. Um well, yeah, go ahead. I'll do my volume.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna my questions will draw out, I'm sure, all this. Yeah. So that well, I'll I'll start here. This is one of the I really appreciated this. Uh you said that election, I'll just read this question. Yeah, election is always connected to God's mercy and never his cruelty. Yeah, he's not cruel. Yeah, you can use the word meanness and cruelty or something like that.

SPEAKER_04

To go off mercy and compassion. That's the MCMC. Oh, perfect. Well done.

SPEAKER_00

I love the alliteration.

SPEAKER_04

It all God's election is always connected to his mercy and compassion, and it is. It's not connected to his meanness or cruelty because God is not mean, he is not cruel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So the the election of believers is a great, I would argue it's the greatest source of comfort for believers. We we know how salvation comes about, how God has ordained means for people to be saved. We know this. We know the gospel itself, the message is the power of God unto salvation. So the message itself is powerful. So you and I communicate a message. That message is from God, it's about Jesus, it's concerning the salvation He provided, and the very communication of that message, the power doesn't come from us, right? It comes from God, and it comes from that message. We know as we communicate the message of the gospel, the work that God has done to save people to himself through Christ, not only is that powerful, but the Holy Spirit is involved in the sharing of that. Working with that message to open blind eyes, to open deaf ears, to bring spiritually dead people to spiritual life. We know that that message results in conviction of sin, convincing us that Jesus Christ is our hope and savior. So that that the God has ordained means for people to be saved, and it's through the gospel. And and so when someone believes that message, and as our verse says, they confess Jesus as Lord, believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they they can stand back and be like, God has done something in order to save me. And uh, I think we often we and to realize that because I've heard the gospel and responded to that, and God God has worked for my salvation and God's chosen me. God God picked me, God, God has done a work to awaken me and to make me spiritually alive and He's brought me to faith. That is such a comfort because it's not based on our performance, but it's based on his purposes and it's based on his mercy. And so to ignore the doctrine of election or to sidestep it because it gets really deep and it it undercuts uh the believer's security and com and and comfort. So I think the doctrine of election is it's found throughout the Bible, and it is intended for the believer's security because God has made decisions for my salvation and it comforts me because it's like, oh, this is this is not based on my performance. This is something that God has done, and I'm leaning into that. Yeah, salvation belongs to the Lord. Salvation belongs to the Lord. Where it gets tricky is where, and maybe this I'm maybe I'm getting ahead on your questions. Where it gets tricky is where people tend to take that doctrine and twist it into something that it's not. So if God is bringing people to spiritual life, opening eyes, opening up ears, is and is he not doing that for others? Is he damning others? And you're you're you're not gonna defend that from the scripture. We in our smallness, in our limited knowledge and understanding, we make that jump. Well, if God chose me, then is he not choosing someone else? Well, no, we we know how God has worked for their salvation. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Okay. He has provided the gospel for them, he's sent Christ for them. And so I'm I'm getting probably ahead in this whole thing. What's amazing is I'm we're probably gonna obliterate some of these questions and just talk because well, no, it's what's wonderful, but there's there's all I want to say is the the doctrine of election is a great source of comfort and encouragement for the believer. Right. It just is. And to to shy away from it, to backpedal from it, to ignore it because it's it's either uh difficult only undermines the believer's security.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And comfort.

SPEAKER_00

There's so much to say. There's a lot to say. I'm jumping off script. Yeah. You and I have had offline conversations about some of this a little bit. Um one of the things I appreciate about your preaching and teaching, and I think I would echo and be in lockstep with a lot of this, is that um you have you feel a need to communicate and represent scripture. And God accurately. And God accurately. Yeah. Not necessarily systems. And I'm just I'm just sharing that as I kind of uh throw the cards on the table a little bit here. We tend to lean into these systems, and this is kind of where some of this gets a little bit fuzzy. What you're communicating theological systems. Yeah, theological systems. What you're communicating here though is that when election is communicated in scripture, the focus is always the mercy, love, grace, compassion, compassion. Absolutely. And and not necessarily what people are beginning to then take that and take next steps or deduce from that.

SPEAKER_04

We we can logically begin taking steps that lead us down a wrong path. Right. The problem with that is our logic is we're just we're infants in this. Yeah. And uh and our logic can lead us into low into directions that the scripture doesn't defend or build a foundation for.

SPEAKER_00

So so one of the questions subsequent to this is sometimes people hear the word election or they hear about some of the stuff.

SPEAKER_04

They oh they immediately connected with a particular system.

SPEAKER_00

But but clearly, like you're saying, that is not, and that's not what Paul is saying either here.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00

No, absolutely not. Israel is culpable for their unbelief.

SPEAKER_04

Well, and he wouldn't be laboring so hard for their salvation if he felt like, oh, God's chosen or, you know, he's I mean, uh chapter 11. We didn't get into chapter 11, we did largely 9 and 10. You know, did God reject his people? No way. I'm one of them, and I'm laboring for their salvation. Right. So that's the other part of that. Um, is it's a great source of comfort and encouragement and security for the believer. It's never used as a um cart blank, God's damned some people.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Nor is it an undermining, and we're gonna probably get this in some of your questions, nor does it undermine our engagement in sharing the good news with other people. Right. It doesn't keep me from evangelism. It actually, the fact that I'm so secure would motivate me into that evangelism because God is saving people and he's doing it, and he desires to do it, he's not willing that any should perish. And whoever comes to him through Jesus, he accepts. So I should be motivated by the same doctrine. Sure. Not only comfort and security, but motivated by that, be like, God is saving people. He delights in doing this, he invites us into that, which is pure mercy. Why would why would he invite it? If he wants to save everyone, he could do it on his own, right? Right. He invites us into that, he's gonna do it. Which is where he goes as he in the world. And we know how he does it. He does it through the preaching of the gospel, by the power of the Holy Spirit, through witnesses that share. My grandfather's unique in that he largely came to Christ, not apart from a witness, he came through the witness of the word.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think uh what I would see in scripture when it comes to these these things, you know, for those who have been saved, God deserves the praise and the glory for that salvation. Totally.

SPEAKER_04

That's that's part of the security part of that. My salvation is not based on my performance at all.

SPEAKER_00

It's based on God's mercy. I do not take the credit for my own salvation. Don't that is that is God. Yep. He receives the glory, he receives the praise, it is his doing, his work, yeah, not my own. My if if there is unbelief, I am culpable for that unbelief.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there's a bit of uh if I don't believe, it's hard to say. It's uh it's probably because I don't want to believe. Because to go back to our key verse, I really don't want another Lord. Sure. See that the the verse is whoever confesses Jesus is Lord believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead, they will be saved. And it's that that matter of lordship is a big deal. If Jesus was risen from the dead, it means that he is God and approved by God as the means for our salvation. Right. God validated or vindicated him. Vindicated him. Yeah. And um, and so if Jesus was risen from the dead and he is God, he is Yahweh, he is Lord, then if I believe that, I I come under his authority. Um so if I if I'm resisting salvation, I either want a part of that, like the the Israelites did, they wanted to they wanted to contribute. Yeah. Uh they a place for boasting, a place for their contribution. And um, but the gospel of grace undermines the ability to boast, but it also then becomes available for everyone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Wherever it comes. We've begun to touch on a lot of my questions, which is great. I'll kind of like unpeel or put back on some of the layers, and then we can unpeel more. Yeah. Because you you kind of pressed into this, but it's a part of my question, and it was a quote, which I really appreciated in the message. You said, God does what he pleases, which I'll just start there. I mean, and Paul makes this pretty clear in this whole section. God is God. We are not. Yep. God does as he pleases, but you said, and it's God's pleasure to save people unto himself that they may see his glory. I think you might have gone on to say, He always saves people who don't deserve it. Right. Um, you want to just press into that for a second?

SPEAKER_04

So, I mean, yeah, God does as he pleases, and it's his desire to save people. Yeah, you can go all you can go all the way back to the beginning. Um, God choosing. Yeah. You know, we talked about in the message, God takes initiative, God makes decisions and God does actions. So you go all the way back to the beginning and God does as he pleases. In the fellowship of the Trinity, there's a determination, there's initiative and decision to create, to create a world. It comes out of the overflow of his compassion and love. As there's no meanness and cruelly connected to that. Right. There's a fellowship that's there that's so enjoyable, and out of the overflow of that, they create the world, then they create people out there.

SPEAKER_00

Also, no insufficiency.

SPEAKER_04

It's not that God needs to chore up any. Yep. But they create people in his in his image, and God is doing things to display his own glory, his own magnificence. Uh, he delights in that. And of course, his great uh magnificence is going to be seen in his saving people who don't deserve saving by his own decisions. And so that's just a remarkable thing. So God does as he pleases, he's not. Uh pressed into doing things that are outside of his will or desires. And from the very beginning, from God's very beginning election, the choices, he's carrying this out. And uh and it's a beautiful plan. And you look at the whole thing and you're like, and God is just glorious, God is just gracious and kind, and it's incredible. And uh so that he's yeah, he does as he pleases, and we learn from the scripture that on his own initiative, he is he's constantly saving people on himself who don't deserve it, sometimes who are not even looking for it. Like Paul.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, Paul's a great example. Um but all the way from the beginning, like you mentioned, you just that's the trajectory throughout scripture. You know, we don't just get to the New Testament, Abraham, you know, just you're walking all the way through.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah. Well, you bring up yeah, so yeah, God does as he pleases, and he his pleasure is to save people, and he did he displays that, he demonstrates that. Um yeah, the other thing about when you start start thinking about election in that way too, you know, I mentioned that God elected Abraham, not anyone else in the world. And he does that on his own initiative and decisions. But he elects Abraham for the world. He's basically through him, through you, Abraham, yeah, that promised deliverer that I promised back in the garden, it's gonna come through your family. Well, then you just keep going down that line, and and it's it's um Jacob, not Esau. Uh it's it's it's Judah, not Joseph. And and again, you look at these and you're like, Judah's like the worst possible candidate. In many respects, yeah. He's just so immoral. He's not a good guy, but God is making these decisions. But it's not it's not as though, well, Judah's saved, Joseph is damned. No, he's making decisions and it's through your line this deliverer is gonna come. And so we're we're watching the line of the deliverer. And um, so that also plays out, too. Um, just because God chooses one doesn't mean the others are damned. He's just carrying out a plan.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. The the meta-narrative, too, throughout that whole time is not with the intention of exclusion of anybody. No, he's bringing people in for the and for the inclusion of the world. Yes, it starts with Abraham, yes, you track it all the way forward. He's the father of a multitude of nations. Yeah. Through him, all nations of the world will be blessed, you know, the whole world will be blessed through him. Yeah. That's the trajectory all the way through.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, and then you get into interesting parts of that when you walk, and we'll get into this a little later in our conversation, quite possibly. But God chooses Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, and then you watch the development of the nation of Israel, and within that nation, he makes certain choices of both prophets and kings and all of that. But the nation, as we we'll talk about in a little bit, is just completely rebellious. Completely rebellious. I mean, they they have a horrible record, centuries of a horrible record. Right. The whole the bulk of the Old Testament is like this, these are just a rebellious people. Why does God save any of them? You know, why does God save a remnant? Why does he preserve a remnant? And and it's a large remnant. I mean, it's a small remnant, but it's a it's a large number of people. Elijah's like, I'm the only one. He's like, No, you're not the only one. I've got I've got old people over here that I'm saving. Again, he's doing that not only to keep his promise, to reveal his glory. So God's awesome. And so whenever we have a doctrine that's going to be twisted to say otherwise, we got to think back and be like, can I defend that other position from the scripture? Because if I can't, I just need to let it go. Right. That's right. And it's so, yeah. So God does as he pleases, right? His pleasure is to save people. Exactly. That's been the plan from the beginning. He's still doing it today from all over the globe. He's still saving people unto himself by his mercy. And he's by his compassion.

SPEAKER_00

He's not willing that any should perish, as we said earlier.

SPEAKER_04

The other side of that is true. Yes. The fact that he has chosen to provide a salvation for the world through Christ. So we run to the world with the safety and security that we have because we've been chosen with the idea of like, hey, not the idea with the truth that Christ is for you. Christ is for your salvation. So that you can come in too.

SPEAKER_00

So we're I'm setting this up really well now. Started to feel disorder, but I'm I'm getting in. So that end part there is we we we talk about election. Yeah. We talk about God choosing, we talk about salvation. It's his, it belongs to him. And then we we you talked, you just shared there a little bit. We run to people with that gospel. So the qu there was a question because salvation is for them, yeah. Yep, there's a question that was submitted. Um, I'm paraphrasing the question, but it talked the topic was election and evangelism. Yeah. Was kind of the crux of the question. Yeah. So does the biblical doctrine of election, is that an inhibitor to sharing the gospel if God has chosen people? Does that mean that we there's no need for us to share the gospel because certain people are elect? I mean, that's that's the question.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, there's there's a couple parts of that. Um, first of all, the fact that God's purpose and his delight is to save people is a motivator for salvation. Because we know that it's God's heart to save people. Sure. And his plans are to that end. So the doctrine of election is not a demotivator, but it's a motivator. It's also the realization that it's not based on my performance that I'm saved, it's based on God's actions. That also motivates salvation because I can go out and evangelism isn't on my power. I don't save people. It's not on my power, it's not on my logical arguments, it's not on my uh clarity of speech and my really slick presentations. Do you understand where I'm going? I'm tracking with you because it's so such a complex. So you and I, yeah. And and it's a little bit convicting too, because we should quite frankly be sharing Christ more than we are, quite frankly. Yeah. Because we can go out and stumble through stumble and fumble through presentations.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

It's not based on my power. It's not based on my presentation, it's not based on my closing the deal. I don't do that. This is based on God's power, and God delights to save people. So why would I well and I'll say something else. Why would we why would we share the gospel? Why if you know if God is choosing people and damning people, which he's not he's working for their salvation, but if God, you know, why would I just not do anything? Well, there's a couple parts of that. First of all, God told us to do it, so there's a bit of obedience to that. Like, well, this is God's ordained means. Yeah, I'm involved in that. So there's a bit of obedience. I I do this because this is how God has chosen to save people. He includes human participants in that, which is grace. It's grace to us. But then beyond that, just the power is God's, not ours. Yeah, so the message is powerful, the spirit is involved, the word of God is involved, uh, God Himself is involved. Uh we get to participate in that. And when you start thinking through it on that level, again, I'm not sharing the gospel to earn points or to build up my performance because it's not the whole thing isn't based on my performance. So, so again, election also not only a comfort for believers, it's a motivation for salvation or evangelism. Sure. Just the opposite of how this is often twisted.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's so much we can talk about. So one of the the the some of the root of the question, just to maybe kind of unpack for the people listening, is that there are there are um well again, maybe I'll say systems that maybe oh emphasize to I think to a significant fault. Yeah. Yeah, the technically, you know, like hyper hypercalvinism. Some systems carry to an extreme, become a real weakness. Yeah, and I use the word hyper-Calvinism because I'm trying to articulate it clearly, clearly. There are some people who would say, Oh, well, if God has chosen some, they're the elect, you know, he's gonna he's gonna do his work anyways. I I can sit back and do nothing. That that is not biblical. It's anathema. It's anathema. And here's the cool thing about it is that Paul makes it super clear in the text itself. You know, your verse is verse 9. You go down just a couple verses, uh, verse 14, how then will they call on him who they've not believed, and how they shall believe in him who they've never heard, and how shall they hear without someone preaching, and how are they preaching unless someone is sent, as it is written? How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news, the gospel.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00

So so the divinely appointed means to accomplish God's sovereign ends is the articulation of the gospel.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The power of that is deposited in the gospel itself, yeah, not in us. Not in Paul. Paul sees a weak vessel. Exactly. He used his broken vessels.

SPEAKER_04

He came to the Corinthian church, and he's like, I came in weakness, not in power, I have fumbling speech, scared to death because of what he'd experienced.

SPEAKER_00

As a preacher, one of my favorite texts is the Paul preaching and drilling on and on and Eudychus falling out a window and dying. You know, it's like it's like ultimately Paul was not the most eloquent, most gifted, as you mentioned, right, but deposited within these earthen vessels.

SPEAKER_04

And it's kind of interesting too because we're looking, we're reading through the book of Romans, and Paul talks about the gospel, we're all lost, God has provided a salvation of Christ, salvation of Christ provides this new life, which is glorious, it's guaranteed inheritance. Then he deals with Israel's, you know, lostness, which is really difficult for him. I mean, he talks about how difficult it is for him. But he is doing, you know, if if election is a reason for not to do evangelism, then Paul's not following his own logic. It's a waste of time, yeah. And but that's not the case. Exactly. That's where we've taken a doctrine and twisted it into something that it's not.

SPEAKER_00

To go back to something you said at the beginning, because there's so much that we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_04

You know, I I'm gonna say something. I think some of these, these, these are um 9, 10, 11 is deep doctrine. It's difficult stuff and it's hard to work through and think through. I I um we would sidestep these hard doctrines to our own detriment. The more you go deeper with God, even in doctrines like, man, this is this is uh difficult for my little mind to wrestle through. But I'm just the deeper you go with God, the more good news you're gonna run into.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You're you're not gonna run into, and if you stay with the scripture, what God has revealed about himself, you're gonna run into more good news. Yes. You just are. And if there's if there's something where there's a doctrine that God gives that's connected, the electron's connected to his his grace and mercy and compassion, if somehow that's twisted into something like, well, that also means he must be cruel and mean, something's wrong, something went haywire. And it's not the keep with the scripture, not with your logic. Sure.

SPEAKER_00

No, you're right. We're just too small. So what you're saying is wait, if you're gonna if we're gonna press into these things, have the the focus of our pressing in the world.

SPEAKER_04

What God has revealed was revealed. What God has revealed. Maybe that goes back to a prior message. Second Timothy 3 16. God's word is inspired, infallible. So stay with that. Yeah. So where I have um challenges, just stay with the scripture. Yeah. I interrupted a question. No, you're great thought.

SPEAKER_00

I've still got it in my head, so we're good. You you my point was there's just so much being said, and there we could, this could be a really long podcast that we really wanted that to be. But you you had said early, part of the comfort in knowing that the gospel is the power of salvation. Yeah. That it's not it's not our articulation, it's not our our our skillful presentation of it. The comfort there, this has been for me, at least as a pastor and as an individual, is when it comes to either having somebody who, you know, they have family who's not believing, for example, and they're, you know, I just I struggle with my ability, I'm not a preacher. You know, people have said that, and it's like um the comfort for us is that it's not it's not up to us to say the right words to save somebody.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_00

We simply need to be faithful, to be the vessel, to communicate to the best of our ability the the message of the gospel, the good news of God's salvation provided through Jesus and his work. It's it's our communication of that. God takes that, regardless of how well we present it, and that's that that's what's powerful. And so there's a sense in which I think there are people, maybe even listening right now, who have loved ones, family members, friends, spouses who they feel like they like the pressure is on for their ability to try to somehow convince that person to believe. I think they can rest easy in the sense that salvation is of the Lord. They just need to be faithful to the calling they have. They should certainly feel a um compulsion. I don't know the word, uh uh desire desire, inspiration, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To communicate it. But my point is just it's not up to them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think that that can be actually also a source of comfort for because for me, uh, you know, it it it we almost feel like the the weights, it's all on our shoulders.

SPEAKER_04

It really isn't. Yeah. You know, we didn't pick up on this on Sunday morning as much as we could have. Uh we have 30 minutes to preach or whatever. And so this is kind of nice to have an additional conversation. Um, because it is a real hardship in my own family. I mentioned we're on the fifth generation, and now it's quite a mixed bag. And so I have family members that I love who have children, some who are walking with the Lord and some who are not. And you want to talk about a heartbreak, sure. They know Paul's heartbreak. Paul says, Man, my heart is broken over my people who are not saved. He wishes he could take their place. Yes, to the point like I would take their place, which is a remarkable statement. So we didn't spend much time there along the lines of undoubtedly, quite possibly every family in our congregation here knows of people like, boy, they should be believers because they've been in contact with the gospel and they're not, and it's a heartbreak. Um often uh when people uh begin to share their faith or begin to talk about Jesus because they have a real burden for their loved one who's who's not responding to Jesus, not responding to the gospel. Um, the person often um has reasons for their unbelief. And whether it's connected to a bad past Christian experience or uh Christians are hypocrites or um they have reasons, they have um reasons for unbelief. Um they're almost never connected to Jesus' resurrection, right? And and so to begin arguing religion and politics or this church and that church or denominations or even theological systems can just get you down a long rabbit hole that there's no power there because we're no longer talking about the gospel. We're no longer talking about Christ's atonement for our sin on the cross and Christ's powerful resurrection that shows that he is God and he is our salvation. God's love. Yeah, and so this is you know, if you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, so Christ and his resurrection was the message of the apostles in the book of Acts. Go back and read the book of Acts. They they are just continually preaching Jesus, his death and resurrection. Correct. And so, and I need to take this myself, my own counsel here, uh, because you run into family members who don't love Jesus or they say they don't love Jesus. Actually, they just don't like Christianity or what their taste or experience they've had with Christians and Christianity, and to keep the resurrection of Jesus the central thing. Because as I said at one point in the message, Jesus, the resurrected Jesus is the one you really have to contend with. That's great. I I remember uh this is interesting, I don't know why this has come to thought right now. I remember going into a bank, and um, it was right after a significant Christian leader in our area had had a significant moral failure. And um, I'm still one of those old school people that actually go into the bank, and I know the the the tellers there. A lot of people don't do that anymore. And uh and I remember a lady uh who was a member of that church brought it up, and she's heartbroken over this. It's a significant moral failure of a Christian leader, and people will use that as see, those Christians, they you know. And she's bringing this up, and she's just heartbroken by it. And it and it and the thought and the communication was, yeah, but but Jesus still rose from the dead. Some person's failure, some person's significant moral failure, a Christian leader's moral fall doesn't in any way undermine Christ died for our sins, Christ rose from the dead, and it it happened. Right. And uh so keeping that central, we didn't spend a lot of time on that on Sunday of the resurrection of Jesus is the central message.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, which in the verse obviously is articulated specifically.

SPEAKER_04

I I touched on that obviously at the end, but Jesus saves. But keeping Jesus is the main thing.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we're not even halfway through your message, probably.

SPEAKER_04

Um well, one of the things we haven't touched on Israel's uh pivot from rebellion. Yes, I want to move toward that for a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

So one of the things you you touched on, which is interesting, is that um you know, obviously God had made a covenant with this people, which again, going back to even what we talked before, the intention was always the inclusion of the nations. You know, Israel was called to be a light peasant of the nations. For the world. But again, that was what we talked about a little bit, but that even Israel, that was the intention of the world. And yeah. Um however, what's interesting is God enters into this covenant with Israel. We didn't talk about this either, not because they were inherently lovely. They have to be re continually reminded of that by the prophets. He's like, remember, God chose you, not because anyways, but it's just interesting. And they needed the constant reminder. Yes, but they need but they proved, they demonstrated various at various times, pre-exile in particular, they demonstrated just a sti you said they're stiff-necked donkeys, stiff-necked people. They were continually they were rebellious through that phase. So you you have a uh a trajectory throughout the this this covenant before exile, where they're just um constantly rebellious against the Lord. Wayward, God's bringing the back, reminding them these things. Then you have exile, which is significant. They thought Israel was done. I mean the temple's gone. So there's a sentiment that God's presence is removed. Well, what's I we you I don't know, you didn't press into this, and I might I could be, you know, maybe not fully informed about this. But what's interesting is when the when there's no temple and they're displaced, I think one of the things that happened is that community began to really press into the law itself. Almost, yeah. Because because void of the temple and the sacrif sacrificial system, all that like they're they're pressing into the law. Yep. Began to produce that's where the rise of the synagogues came. That's where the Pharisees. These groups began to rise up during this and uh this from this exile community, and yeah, that began to become more prominent during that time, and I think even uh maybe even in intradestal times a little bit, but after exile, from that point forward all the way through you know into the New Testament, you begin to see the pivot from outright rebellion to overt religiosity, strict religion, yeah, strict adherence, but as you mentioned, one was unrighteous in the past, unrighteous behavior, and now we have self-righteous behavior. Do you want to press into that for a minute?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I it's and I think sometimes we think the religious people are better off than the rebellious people. And they're the the audience that Jesus had the worst time with and had the strongest words for uh was the religious audience. And and again, Paul calls them their zealous for God. They know their Bible inside and out, and they know the rules, and they're keeping the rules, and they're adding their own rules to make sure they don't break God's rules. And so these are super zealous religious people, but they have rejected Jesus because they're saving themselves. Right. And uh, when they're in this trajectory of saving themselves, it often plays out poorly too. Sure. Because then you begin, you have a place to boast. You're insecure, and so in your insecurity, you but you're insecure because you don't know if you've quite done enough. Everyone knows their own brokenness. Right. It's like, oh, here's these rules. I don't even keep my own rules, let alone God's rules, and so I'll make more rules, and keeping those rules, I'll somehow bolster my confidence and security. Sure. And I feel better when I can condemn you or point out your faults because you know, then it just is it gets really ugly. And um, so yeah, these Israelites pivoted from rebellion to religion, and they're lost in both lanes, they're lost both ways.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's going back to our parable series when you did the lost son, and you took said it's the lost sons, which is very true, true. Yep. He is very obedient. Yep. You have the the son who's openly rebellious, and then you have the son who is obedient, religious, yeah, but both are lost. Both are lost. And the the in in particular in the parable, it is the wayward son, the rebellious son, who actually finds his way back home, where the the religious son, the obedient son, self-righteous son, yeah, doesn't enter the party and the audience that Jesus is speaking to. Yeah, that's really significant.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and it's also really impressive too, because when you um I think where I go with that is I think sometimes um we again going back to the faith isn't um genetically passed down. When you have uh kids who are raised in church and raised in Christian camp and ch children's ministry, it's a blessing because they're regularly hearing the gospel message and um and you're prayerful that the Holy Spirit would take the power of the gospel and open their eyes and bring them to Christ. And when that happens, I think we see it as a smaller step or a smaller salvation. And it's not. Oh, it's absolutely not. It's almost a bigger one. Um so when you have the when you have the The kid who's just rebellious and a broken home, whatever, what just the worst case scenario. Right. And he comes to faith in Christ. Everyone's like, oh, that's that's a miracle. Right. But Johnny, who's been raised in church, who comes to faith in Christ in fourth grade, you know, at the end of you know youth camp, like, oh, well, we kind of expected that. Yeah. That's a miracle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. We we don't clap as loud if it's you know, if you you didn't have a life where it was just a train wreck.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we get that even on you know on a testimony night. So I don't have that great of testimony. Man, I tell you what, if you've come to faith in Christ, it's owing to God's mercy and kindness to you. Yeah. And that's true for everyone because the the real story is in Jesus, who he is, what he's done on our behalf. Yeah, yeah. We and you and I, you and I have been fortunate to have been raised in a context where the gospel was regularly communicated, which means we've had regular contact with that.

SPEAKER_00

Which is awesome. Tying it in back to the text and what you you kind of brought this back in with Paul, you know, Paul is looking at these people who, of all people, you would have expected to embrace Jesus as Messiah. Yeah. But you talked about how the fact that, you know, you, I think you used the illustration of the rock in your front yard that your grandkids play on, and the UPS driver, you don't want him to trip over the rock. And it's like that rock is Jesus for that community largely, because he, as opposed to seeing him and embracing him, he became that stumbling block because they were so fixated on their own self-righteousness that they they couldn't see Jesus for who he was. They didn't realize their need for him. Yeah. They were sufficient in them and of themselves.

SPEAKER_04

And so the law was intended to lead them to Christ. Right. The law, and it does the same for us. Uh the law is intended to lead them to Christ. They got so fixated on the law that when Christ came, they tripped over him. They tripped over him. And um, so we also know the rest of the story, too. There were a large number of Pharisees who came to faith in Jesus later. So that's that's true as well. And a miracle.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, yeah, and and Paul, well, Paul, I think, has an eye toward the future hoping for that, but that's a whole separate thing in that whole section. Uh oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Anyways, well, even in his missionary endeavors, it's also an interesting to look through as missionary endeavors. Where do you always go first? To the Jews first. Always went to the synagogue first. He started there. Yeah. He passed cities because there was a synagogue in the neighboring city and he'd start there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

He wants the salvation of his people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Um I have no idea where we are.

SPEAKER_04

There's so much we could say. That's good stuff. I'm I'm I'm glad we're diving into this. Uh, you know that the other good thing about this too is uh you and I know uh the Lord willing, we hope to come back and to actually go through the book of Romans next year. So I'm really glad because uh to go back into these chapters again. And again, because I think the deep doctrines, if you want to call this a deep doctrine, is we're gonna find more good news, more comfort, more security.

SPEAKER_00

And walking through it progressively will hopefully be a blessing and a benefit. Oh, absolutely. The context will be much more known. Yeah, because Paul, well, these are chapters Paul begins in this section with chapter nine, it's kind of the new section. Yeah. He's already laid the groundwork on one through eight.

SPEAKER_04

But yeah, which is well uh before we pivot off of Israel swung from uh rebellion, they had centuries of rebellion, to uh strict religion, and that's the audience that Jesus encountered. I mean, way different from the rebellious audience, they're a very religious audience, still lost. Um if we're if if to speak honestly, those self-centeredness and self-righteousness are still gonna be temptations for me as a believer. So it's not as though those are we don't graduate from that. Yeah, there's a sense of uh that's a part of my past life where I would I would you you go between rebellion, just I'm gonna do my own thing, I'm gonna have it my way, I'm gonna go my own way, I'm gonna be my own Lord, I'm gonna choose my own path, I'm gonna do my own thing. Uh the other way is like, well, I'll just keep all the rules and I'll one-up you and uh I'll and I'll have I'll start building a resume. Paul talks about that too. You know, if you want to talk resumes here, I'm gonna have a righteous resume that's gonna exceed yours. The the only thing that keeps me, even today as I follow Jesus Christ, from falling off those in those lanes, in those pits, I'll call them pits, of either going my own way or just being super religious and uh is the gospel. So even even for a believer in Jesus, to walk in faith, to walk in grace, to grow in grace, it's the gospel that's gonna keep me from falling into those pits. So that I'm continuously reminding ourselves. Yeah, so that I'm not so that I'm not one-upping people with my Bible study, church attendance, scripture memory. You know, I'm not I'm not one-uping people because it's I'm not doing them to build a resume. Um and I'm also You're also not Lord of your life. Yeah. But we gotta be realize we we also have to be tempted uh realizing that we'll be tempted down those down those paths to fall off those rails. So the gospel still important and powerful for coming to faith in Christ, and that gospel of grace is what uh takes me home, leads me home to the old song Amazing Grace. That's great. Yeah. Um we don't graduate from grace.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, that's wonderful. Yeah, yeah. Uh so we pressed into the topic of election a little bit. One of the things that you uh uh pressed into a little later in the message, and I think it was from first Peter, you talked about the fact that um clearly God chose a series of of individuals throughout the course of human history, and we talked about Abraham and ultimately Israel, I know the patriarchs, Israel. Um God's choosing of Jesus.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Care to just press into that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, if you want to talk about election, Jesus was chosen from before the foundation of the world. And again, you you when you start talking about that, you're now talking about the fellowship of the Trinity that was so enjoyed by them for all eternity. Again, we're talking about stuff that we only know by revelation, and it's mind expanding. We we know in part. Yeah, but uh Jesus, second member of that holy trinity, um, is chosen. And Jesus comes, and Jesus died. The Father didn't die, right? Jesus died, and God was pleased, and he glorified his father, and uh prays that we might uh see his glory. And and so, yeah, yeah, I mean, Jesus was chosen from before the foundation of the world, and and then in time, in the course of time, humbly submitted and did come and carried out his father's will all the way through the cross. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. Again, that goes back to you want to press into this stuff, you're just gonna run into beauty and goodness.

SPEAKER_00

And in the the Trinity, just how cool it is. You know, you have the Father who is who is appointing and who is you know, and and the Son who carries it out and accomplishes what the Father has, and then you have the Spirit who applies it. It's just what a cool picture of just the Godhead.

SPEAKER_04

Well, yeah, and all all the members of the Godhead, I love the the study of the Trinity is also just a blessed, uh blessed thing. Um all the members of the Godhead are attributed with acts of creation, various parts in the in the Bible. All of the members of the Godhead are also attributed with the the work of salvation. Yep. And yet they uniquely had, as you've just described, unique positions or rules within that. And uh Jesus applied it, the Holy Spirit applies that. Uh it's just yeah, it's good news. It's cool. So yeah, Jesus chosen from before the foundation of the world, which also means we're not on plan B right here. God didn't do a pivot after the fall. Right. And again, now you're getting into even deeper waters, but he's not on plan B. We're still on plan A. And he's he's carrying it out. He's gonna carry it out. That we have comfort in the fact that Jesus Christ is coming again. Well, Jesus promised us that. But we also did God's going to bring it about because he chose to. And it was his initiative, it is his decisions, it was his plan, and even talking about something that's yet in the future, we're just like, yeah, it's gonna happen. And he's faithful to provide all that he's gonna be. Yeah, yeah. And if he, yeah, he's he's not pivoting around on his plan. We're still on plan A. Yeah. And for all eternity, we're gonna stand around his throne and be like, oh, God is God is awesome.

SPEAKER_00

There are so many other things we could probably visit in this, but I we've we've net we've traversed through Is it dinner time yet? Is it probably on the next day? I don't know, I don't know how long this one's gone, but it's been great uh to talk through it. And I think you know, this is again a topic that um yeah, maybe some people have thoughts on or questions about. I I hope that it spurs on more conversation and more consideration. And as you talked about, when we press back into Romans next year, my hope is that it's just a a really cool opportunity for our church to to look into press into this.

SPEAKER_04

When we get there next year, we'll obviously be working through the book a much slower pace. Yeah. Uh we we dug deeper this week and kind of digging deeper kind of went broader because I had to look at that whole section. I didn't even look at the whole section, we've left eleven alone. Right. Um, but yeah, going through it on a slower pace, I am just encouraged by it because we're going to run into good news. Yeah. And I hope it just lays a really more solid foundation for our comfort, our security, yeah, motivation for evangelism, all of that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um you know, I don't think at this point I know of any other verses in the series that are in Romans, but it's a bummer because I kind of very in a synthesized way just touched on Romans 1 through 8. You touched on Romans 9 through 11. We're we're leaving the last couple chapters. Yeah, we're getting draw.

SPEAKER_04

Good start for that. Well, Romans 12, 102 is uh one of those really popular verses. That would be a good one. The only reason, the only way I'll ever present my body as a living sacrifice is because God has been so gracious. It's not resume building. I'm not doing it to build a resume, it's a response to grace. That's a wonderful way to conclude our conversation. Do you know where we're going this Sunday? Another key verse.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes. We are gonna be in in Micah 6.8. Oh, he has shown you. Yes. Excellent. Yeah. Well, yeah, hopeful, hopefully. Yeah, no, I'm sure. The text is excellent, but I mean, yeah, the message isn't done. But yes, I'm that's where I'm looking to press into. It's a fairly well-known verse for probably quite a few people, but interestingly, it's the verse itself is picked.

SPEAKER_04

Hey, it's in a context.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's usually not presented in the way that it unfolds in the book of Micah. Oh, yeah. So that'll be kind of fun.

SPEAKER_04

No, I'm I'm glad you announced that because I I genuinely think people who listen to the podcast are like, oh, they're they're helped and they're glad to know where we're going. Yeah. Which I'm really glad for. Uh people here at Frank Luth Bible are grabbing their Bibles and they're reading ahead and coming prepared. And uh don't forget to submit questions too. That's helpful for us. Yep. Uh not helpful for us preparation-wise, but helpful for us as a congregation to really be addressing um things that we're not covering in the message that that raises a genuine question, like, hey, can you press into that? That's it's cool to have an avenue where people can actually in uh real time regularly press into you know the the topics on Sunday, and it's kind of a just that I didn't mention it at the end of this uh at the end of the message, and uh they probably they might have shown the QR code on the screen, but it is now connected to our app. Yeah. And so you can go to the Sunday, I think it's part of the Sunday Sunday app on the yeah, yep, the Sunday tab, and uh there's actually a a space there for submitting questions. Sweet. This is great.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Mark, have enjoyed it. Everybody's been good. Thanks for hanging in there, and uh, we hope to connect with you next week for after the AMN.