After The Amen - Ep. 37: "He Has Shown You"

Welcome to “After The Amen” 🙏 
The goal of this podcast is to revisit the message from the previous Sunday in order to unpack the passage even further, ask key questions, and discover how faith can practically move from Sunday morning into every day of the week.

Linked Sunday - Jul 12, 2026

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Well, hello everybody. Welcome to After the Amen. This is our podcast segment here at Frankenbooth Bible Church, where we take the content from Sunday morning's message and we unpack it later in the week. And uh interestingly, we're not unpacking last week's message when we're filming this podcast. We're delayed by a week. Yeah. Uh we had a few reasons why we had to delay. So this is a message from a couple weeks ago that we're gonna unpack, which I don't remember very well at all, Eric, because I'm on to my next sermon. But uh but how are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 0:33

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. It's good to be here. It's been a minute to be on the podcast. Yeah, it has been. But always a good time.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

And so, yeah, just dialoguing about the sermons are how long have you been on staff here as uh actual pastoral staff now?

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Pastoral staff, not a resident. Not a resident since February. Yeah. How's how's it going?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

How's life treating you?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

It's good, it's got unique challenges. Um, but yeah, the most satisfying thing I can do. I, you know, I walk around the church and I tell our other pastors, you know, I have the best job here. Yeah, no, I I get to walk through uh baptism classes and membership classes and just get to meet a uh large number of our congregation where um, you know, that for somebody in a lead pastoral role like yours, it it's tough to meet every single person. And uh being in a classroom setting where people are being um filtered through these classes uh to learn more about Jesus, I get to meet just a wide range of our congregation, which is good for somebody like me who's a little bit more introverted. It forces me into that role and and it's just been it's been a huge blessing. So get to know a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Your role as the group's pastor is interesting because basically, you know, we have the connection director exists to kind of have people who are first coming to the church get plugged in. But once they're plugged in, yeah, it's like a handoff to you. And so for our various groups and for that kind of pathway toward membership and baptism, you're you're the guy. So you you have a lot of chance to connect with a lot of people, which is really cool. And yeah, get them plugged in.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

And yeah, and it's in my wheelhouse, you know, we we get a lot of people that are asking a lot of really good questions, and uh just some people that have been faithful for a really long time and know Jesus for a long time, and then other people who haven't who are you know just really just really asking really good questions and seeking to know the truth of Christianity, and and that's just my heartbeat is there for that. I I I love that, and so to be able to to exercise that within the role that I've been given has been just awesome. It's been a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

That's cool. Well, man, we're glad that you're on the team. It's been fun. Yeah, yeah. And you're my neighbor, you're my office. We have to go kind of through around that little corner, but uh you're you're the office next to mine, so we get plenty of good conversations when I'm going to get coffee and all that stuff. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Yeah, super nerdy stuff we get to dig into, which is great. So all right, well, let's do that today. Okay. Because today we're digging deep, right? Like the the series, uh, this was week six of our podcast series or of our sermon series in digging deep. You covered Micah 6'8. Yep. Um, so we had a couple of questions. We're gonna hop right in with questions from the congregation first. Oh, okay. We had two of them that were submitted. Yep. Uh so we can hop right into those. Okay. So the first question was uh can you share some practical biblical advice for moving away from legalism if that's your inclination or natural tendency, especially if you've been raised in that way and the Bible has become a weapon because it feels like grace is a reward for obedience. So so yeah, biblical advice.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Um biblical advice, I guess, if I'm thinking through from what the Bible prescribes for that, because I think um it's funny while we were talking before. Um I'm my brain is thinking about the message I'm preparing for this coming week. So I'm gonna be in Galatians, and so Galatians is kind of a maybe the most quintessential example of maybe this kind of lived out because you have a uh a book that was written by Paul to people who were being pulled toward legalism, but these are people who are already considered believers or already part of a church. And I think Paul's point, just again and again and again, is don't forsake the true gospel, this gospel of grace, who Jesus is and what he's done, that righteousness doesn't come through works of the law, but it's something that comes from Christ and it's imputed, it's given to us by faith. So the biggest, I guess, biblical advice I would say is just reflect and remember and reapply the gospel over and over and over in your life. Um as somebody who grew up in the church, and there were moments in my journey too where we were more connected to the church than you know others, but um, I did grow up in a Christian home and did grow up um uh in in the church. I think there's just that propensity to say, like, you know, the gospel is the ticket in. And then once we get there, we graduate from the gospel and we move on to all these other things. And it's being a really good person and following the rules. And it's like um that that's actually not what the gospel is. The gospel, the gospel is not just the ticket into heaven. The gospel is the thing that continually we reapply to our life. And that's the um, that's the important thing to remember. So we don't want to depart from that. It's the work that God did, that Christ did on our behalf that makes us righteous before God. And it's through that then, now we've been given a new kind of life that we begin to live um obediently, but it's not it's not according to the law, it's not about adherence, it's not about returning to that, it's not about um uh uh our ability to do in order to like stay in good standing with God. He's already done that work for us.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

And so the the righteous fruit that flows from our life, that's uh the work of the spirit, right? So the spirit begins to produce that in us. We're active in that. Um, but but we certainly just need to remember that's a gift from God. All everything's a gift from him. And so uh we owe all our righteousness to him and um and the natural propensities to to drift from that. So just remember the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah, that's good. And and like I I didn't grow up in the church. So the perspective of, you know, you you grew you grow up, you're you learn these things, you're taught these things. For me, we talked about it in staff meeting a little bit yesterday. And um, for me, coming, coming into the faith as an adult and reading the Bible and reading the scriptures and reading the gospel, um, my question was, oh, okay, I I believe. So what do I have to do? What what what is God requiring of me? And every time I thought about adding something to that, like, okay, I need to, I need to volunteer more, I need to give give more money to the church, I need to do X, Y, and Z. Now, those may those are good things that we can do. Um, but it I had this realization that that if I believe that that's somehow meriting to my salvation, then am I am I not saying what Christ did on the cross is am I saying that it's insufficient? Because that's what it feels like. And I think that's exactly what scripture is saying, that trying to build on that, um, you can. There's nothing you can give. So yeah, just a really cool reflection. Yeah. That's a great question. Yeah, good question. Um, next question is in the sermon you said religion is slash can be sin. At what point does it start being sin and not faith?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, so uh to clarify terms, the word religion there's different connotations for how that can be used. So I don't um I was using religion as as maybe religiosity is a better way to describe that, but we tend to it's kind of common vernacular, I think, in gospel-centered church gospel-centered churches where they tend to kind of parse out religion and relationship and that kind of stuff. And so I was using it in those that that way, you know, there James talks about this pure religion, right? And so there's there's a way where where religion itself is not inherently bad, you know, uh um uh we're this is where uh the church is religious, right, in that sense. So there's a positive way you can say that. I just mean religion religiosity. And so it goes back to the previous question a little bit. Um it I think it becomes sin when we when we begin to think that we merit something before God, that it has to do with our standing before God, that it's purely a work um of Jesus, and um, and our righteousness does not come through our work whatsoever. And I, you know, people who are listening to this now, they would have heard Jordan's message. And exactly there we there's a common theme for the last month about grace and religiosity and legalism, and so that's been kind of bubbling up over and over and over again. It just kind of happened to work out that way because a lot of the very famous verses are within a context that talk about grace and salvation and faith and and and our work. And so um, yeah, so anytime that that becomes a thing, that it's it's meriting something before God, earning something before God that we cannot earn. Christ earned it for us, He did the work for us. Yeah, that becomes sin. And so the repentance that I called people to in the message was saying, Hey, repent of whatever it is in you that thinks that you are earning before God something that you cannot earn. Yeah. So yeah, that's when it becomes sin, I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Yeah, that that's great. And if you guys are interested in more of that, uh Jordan and I are also recording the podcast today. So I will be wearing the same shirt just so that you're aware.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Um they'll probably be released at the same time. So if you listen to this first or the other one first, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

So we'll we'll dig into that question maybe even a little bit more too, which which is great. So yeah, stay tuned for that. All right, excellent. Well, you began the sermon. Uh you were talking about your devotion and your loyalty to Michigan State. Um, and I've heard it said that what you treat as precious becomes precious to you. Do you believe that that is a true statement? And if it's true, how do we direct the affections of our heart towards the Lord? How do we train our hearts to esteem the Lord as precious and have him become more precious to us?

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Whew, that's a really good question. Well, I think that ultimately our um affections for the Lord, that's a thing that we we grow in. You know, it's interesting because we'll, I think you're gonna press into the idea that we're talking about covenants a little bit, the old covenant and the new covenant. And um by God's grace, what he has done through Jesus, he's provided the way of salvation. And when we uh trust in Jesus Christ, we are brought into this relationship with God where we are now part of this covenant that He's established with us uh through Christ, through the blood of Jesus. And so that's a relationship that we are now um we are rooted in. It's we're brought into this relationship and uh we're joined uh to Christ. And part of that is just uh uh throughout this Christian life, our sanctification, I think we grow in our knowledge of who the Lord is. And I think like any relationship, you know, there are seasons where any healthy relationship that you're you're the depth of that affection and love grow over time. Um and so I you know, I I would say that's just part of your your walk with the Lord. And part of it is um, again, meditating on the gospel, who he is, what he's done. There's just practical things about just our relationship with the Lord, you know, remembering that everything is grace, everything is a gift, that you know, apart from him, we would be without hope lost. And so I think it's just a progressive thing, you know, our affections for the Lord, that's a thing that we grow, um, we're growing as we walk through the Christian life.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

So yeah, and I hear a lot of people talk about how they want to love God more, they want to know him more. Um, and so they'll ask for, you know, ways that they can do that. And obviously, studying God's word is an important way to do that, knowing him more, speaking to him in prayer.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Um, and sometimes I'll I'll use the example with people, you know, we have relationships with other human beings in our lives. Right. And sometimes the more you get to know somebody, the more you love them. Right. And then sometimes the more you get to know somebody, it may not move in that direction. But because God is perfect, that that will only move in one direction. The more we know him, the more truly know him. Yeah, the more we truly love him. And then we have the spirit in us, which which leads us and teaches us how to love the son like the father loves the loves the son. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, I think that's a really profound thing to say. Yeah, he's perfect. So I think that that you what's interesting is again when we talk about religion and relationship, like like God is not impersonal. Yeah, but he's not like the gods of the other nations or whatever. He's not distant, he's not angry, we don't have to rouse his attention. He is always there, always attentive. He created all things, he is um he is present at all times, um, and he's a communicative God. So we can engage, we can hear from him and we can speak to him. You know, that's what prayer and and his word and the spirit. So we actually get to spend time with our God, which is really cool. So that's part of it, is is just like any relationship. You want to develop a relationship, you got to spend time together. Um, I think that's a very practical way to say it. Yeah, just spend time with the Lord and His Word through prayer.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

It's good. Yeah, that's good. All right. Um, leading the song in the sermon. That was really great, by the way. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Um my yeah, my kids hated it, but that's fine. It was pretty pretty cringe worthy, but that's all right.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

I thought it was great.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Well, here's the thing. I learned either when there were many people who like knew the song, but they weren't gonna let on that they knew the song. I saw one of these. Yeah, there's some of that. Yeah, uh, even in my own home. The other piece that's interesting is I think I anticipated that more people knew that song than did, which is a little bit funny, but it it there are reasons. I'm learning as to why that is. There are reasons for maybe why less people knew that thanks. But that was actually very popular in certain circles, that song.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Uh, I think in the 70s and 80s and late 70s, maybe maybe late 70s, 80s, 90s. Yeah. Anyways.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Well, it was popular when you did it here at you know that Sunday. So it was great. Like I heard nothing but good things. And I I thought it was I thought it was excellent. So that's cool. Um, do you happen to have any other verses that you've put to memory because they were put to music or to song?

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Oh man. You so this is you probably mentioned that. I don't know if you mentioned that when we were prepping for this, but uh um probably.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah. I think of some of the creeds.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly, yeah, there are creeds. There are ver lots of verses that are baked in at different points, but I I guess I'm I'm drawing a blank.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Man, this would have been a great question for Mary.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Oh, she would have lots of, yes. Lots of them.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Um boy, I'm thinking of all these children's songs that I know, but a lot of them are like, you know, Father Abraham or like um, yeah, I'm sure there are. This this is the one of those. What's unique about this is that verse itself, that was the extent of the lyrics. Like what I what I sang. You know, there's like um, oh, I think about um it's dating me now, but like in the 90s, what is their uh um give us clean hands, give us pure hearts, let us not lift our souls to night all like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Um there there are songs that we yeah, we're like just verses that I guess we sang. Oh, and more recently, not growing up, one of the cool things is scripture lullabies. Oh, okay. Uh, we there are times with our kids when, and these are these are newer songs, but if you actually like if anybody has like um maybe Amazon Music or Alexa or whatever, you know, Spotify, and you look up scripture lullabies, it's like just scripture put to music done by artists, and it's like decent quality, but it's smooth soothing and relaxing, and it's just scripture, and so they put it to a melody. So those are kind of cool ones that we've done with our kids.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

Yeah. Um I know some people's thoughts on AI. Yeah, okay, you know, good and negative aspects of it. Um, I had a friend send me a it was the Psalms done using AI in a bluegrass format, so you could listen to the psalms in like a very bluegrass style, very fulky style. Um was a good quality. It was good quality, and like it would actually help you to memorize that if you listen to it on repeat. So it is a really cool technique. Um, my uh my wife, well, I didn't grow up in the church, like I said, but my wife did, and she'll talk about veggie tails and how like she she can just burst out in song and remember that, and you know, her brothers too, and like her mom, and I just that's so foreign to me, but it's awesome. Like, I I I miss that because I I do think, and especially the way that our brains work when we're young and learning different things and retaining different things. Yep. Um, yeah, that song aspect of it is yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

So, yeah, well, and I've got some Veggie Tales in my head. Now, I remember as a child watching Veggie Tales when that came out, but it was a little bit I was a little older. Okay, if that makes sense. Like when I was young, I that was popular, but I I'm trying to think, like I kind of remember like, oh, I saw that, but like that was more when I would like help out in the Sunday school classes for kids. I think it was a little bit on the forefront of like too old for Veggie Tales. Yeah. But like, yeah, I mean, where is my hairbrush? For people who know Veggie Tales, that's a very popular song. Okay. So I know a lot of those songs. Okay. What's the there's uh animals, anyways? Um, and my kids would know a little over that, but the Veggie Tales actually ended up being something too that Phil Visher was the guy who started that. That eventually, when he put out the Jonah movie, I think they kind of ran out of money and he sold it, and now it's more like moralistic ah be a good person. I see. Yeah, I think whoever bought it, but yeah, anyways. Interesting, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Maybe we should have Herrera start writing children's songs. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be a good thing. All right. Well, in the sermon, uh, you mentioned that the Israelites they were neglecting God and treating people poorly. Uh, there's a direct relationship between our relationship with God and our response to people who have been made in God's image. Is there any additional conversation with that that might be helpful with that truth? That relationship between God, our response to other people being made in God's image?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Yeah, I think over and over again in the Bible we have a very clear um we have very clear instruction that um we we can't properly love God apart from loving our neighbor. Right. Like the love of neighbor is is um directly connected to that. And part of it is just the overflow of your heart, right? When we're brought into this relationship with God, it transforms the way that we live, all our relationships. And so for someone to be neglecting the people around them, you know, Jesus talks about what you did to the least of these, you did to me.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

We have even very clear instruction in the New Testament that that we don't we don't parse those things out and separate them and say, you know, loving God and then loving neighbor are are two separate things, they're intertwined.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

And so uh one of the ways that we love God is by loving our neighbor. I would I would suggest.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

You know, yeah, that is the interesting thing. Yeah, Jesus has asked, what's the greatest commandment? And he gives two, and one seems to answer the other. You you love God. Well, how do I love God? By loving my neighbor.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Uh yeah, I think it's a little bit of both and too. It's just like they're just they're intertwined realities. And when you see the the decalogue, the Ten Commandments, you know, you have you have the first half or centered on this kind of vertical relationship, the second half are centered on a horizontal relationship. Um, and that's always been God's God's plan, is that that's those things are are essential. Yeah. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:05

Yeah. Yeah, it is cool to think about the we have this simplicity of scripture that we can we can understand scripture. Um, there are aspects of the teachings of scripture that that Christ died for us, uh, that he provides salvation for us. And so to know, you know, as a Christian, what am I commanded to do? What what is the what is the best thing I can do? Well, like to love God and to love my neighbor. Uh so somebody's struggling with that. Like, what's my purpose? How do I glorify God here on the earth? Love God, love your neighbor, and both of those things are good. So yeah, great. Uh, this section in Micah, uh, it talks about judgment and hope. The judgment's because the people are unfaithful, but the hope is in God's unwavering faithfulness to his people. And I think sometimes we see judgment as some kind of like final edict, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Uh it's not as though God's gonna completely wipe out Israel. We actually see really good cause for that throughout the Bible, but even in those other instances, God's faithful, right? Like we do you think that this is something we see consistent in his character throughout scripture? Yes. This this character of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

You're talking about specifically about um that judgment isn't the final yo, yeah, for sure. I think it's from the very beginning you kind of see there uh judgment and hope and judgment and promise, and um, where that's ultimately leading, which is um God's redemption and salvation. And so you see that throughout the Bible, even the very beginning, right? In Genesis 3, it begins to set that for the very first time, this kind of paradigm that you see recapitulated throughout the Bible, where God pronounces judgment because of humanity's sin and rebellion in the garden.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

But woven within that in Genesis 3.15 is this promise, this glimmer of hope of that the seed of the woman will crush the serpent. And from that point forward, that promise is teased out, expanded in various ways. We see it then flow through the nation of Israel. That's that was God's intention from the very beginning, is that He's choosing Israel and to work through Israel so that way Israel could be a light to the nations and bless the nations, and it's through Abraham's seed, through his line, that they'll be a blessing to all nations. And that just begins to get expanded upon and teased out throughout the whole Bible. So Micah is no different. You know, with Micah, Israel has been unfaithful, they have continually violated what God has expressly prohibit prohibited them from doing, and it's idol worship and oppression and injustice and all sorts of evil. And over and over and over again, because of that, there's judgment, there's consequences to people's sin. And so God's going to bring about judgment, but because he's gracious and because he's good, he makes the promise in Micah that there's going to be a remnant, even though they'll go into Babylon.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

And these nations will be raised up and as an instrument of God's judgment. God is going to take from exile a remnant, bring them back into the land. That's a promise of Israel's restoration back in the land. But then included in that, and that's one of the Other famous verses in Micah is that he makes a promise that there's from this remnant there's gonna come one who's going to be this blessing to the to all nations, you know. Oh you Bethlehem, Ephraith, though you're small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come one, you know. So that I think that's the verse, is it? But that that's the promise in Micah that we read at Christmas. Yeah. So God is going to bring from that remnant one who's going to be a ruler, who's gonna who's gonna save his people. And so that just gets teased out all the way through. And so judgment is part of what we see, but judgment is not the last word. It never is. Right. God has a message of hope and salvation and redemption that he carries out that culminates in the in the person of Jesus, and it's consummated in in the in the end.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Yeah. Yeah. So would you say that it's it's right to say that judgment isn't judgment isn't a bad thing. It it's a it's a consequence maybe of bad action or poor action, but judgment in and of itself coming from the Lord is meant to correct, it's meant to draw us close, it's meant to show his nature, maybe at the same time. If if God were not just, um, then that would be uh that would be you know something that's diminished on his end. Well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

But yeah, that's but God is God is glorified through the salvation of his people in the midst of uh there's a book, um it's dense, but Jim Hamilton was a professor of mine at Southern. But he he wrote a book called God called God's Glory in Salvation Through Judgment. And it's just kind of this walking out that theme that we see. Okay, I might have to pick that up. Yeah, you can borrow it if you want. It's dense.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

So good.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

All right, excellent. Yeah. All right. Well, you talked about uh this chapter in Micah. It's like a courtroom drama. Uh I'm a huge fan of courtroom dramas. I love debate, battle of the wits, you know, this back and forth struggle, it's awesome. Yep. Um, but you said that Israel is on trial here. The plaintiff is the Lord himself, and the witnesses are the mountains, hills, and the earth, and they hear as he brings his charges. So courts in session, uh Yahweh takes the stand, and you talked about how you'd expect the Lord to speak about all the terrible things that Israel has done, right? He would bring the charges first, but he doesn't do that. Instead, he gives a reminder, which was point one of your message. Uh, and if I guess my question is if you were writing this courtroom drama, you'd probably expect a list of charges right away. But why does God choose to remind them of his faithfulness before he addresses Israel's unfaithfulness? Like why does he order it in that way?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, I think it's just the nature of who God is. God, he, I mean, well, there's also part of it too. I'm I'm now thinking on the spot a little bit because it's been a while since I've done the message. But what's interesting about that is the witnesses and the jury, so to speak, which are the mountains and the hills and the earth, they already know.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

They were there. That's part of why he calls them. Like you think about Israel. Israel started at a fixed point in history through Abraham. But who was who's always been there as a witness to all that's happened in creation are the mountains and the hills and the earth. Right. The earth has been there since the beginning.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

They're privy to what's already happened, to the promises and the covenant that was made. It's interesting. So they already know in part. Yeah. So it's almost like there's a sense in which God doesn't need to speak something that everybody already knows. Like before the trial begins, everybody knows Israel's guilty.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Nobody there is like, but wait, no. Even Israel, yeah, when they're in response to the Lord, they know they're guilty. Yeah. So there's a part where there's that, which is interesting about the courtroom trial, which I'm kind of teasing out in my brain, maybe now on the spot when we're talking. But part of it too is it's just cool because it's it's that's the Lord, right? It's like, I mean, I think the idea of condemnation and guilt. It's like we all feel that, we all know that. And the Lord really begins with a a very loving, gracious reminder of like what he's done over and over and over again. And he kind of says, like, what have I done to you, you know, Israel? How have I wearied you? Like, clearly, through this relationship, you don't value the relationship. You're living however you want. Like it's it's just a really I think it's a really tender, sad kind of thing when we think about that relationship with the Lord. Like God, God is just enduringly faithful. And so, as opposed to having to bring up something that they already know or that everybody already knows, he wants to remind them, like, hey, what have what have I done? Like, I've not done anything to precipitate this kind of response to the relationship I have with you.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, he doesn't have to point to their moral failings, he can point to his perfection.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

And his love and his grace and say, Yeah, yeah, I don't have to point out what you've done wrong. What have I done wrong? It's nothing. And it's nothing. Yeah, nothing. It's good. I like that. That's an interesting thought. Yeah. It is. Yeah. All right. Well, part two, um, you talked about how it's Israel who takes the stand. Uh Israel attempts to appease God with their offerings and actions, but they didn't have an interest in surrendering surrendering their lives or giving their hearts to him. Yeah. Is that the same attitude in is that same attitude and action prevalent today? And how might that play out in like contemporary modern times?

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Oh, I think so. And I think that probably presses out. I don't know how even long we will need to talk about this because the first couple questions were about legalism. But I think Israel is is responding in a very transactional way, is what I tried to articulate in the message. It's it's not about, oh Lord, you're right. We have totally abandoned what you've called us to. We're so sorry. We're grief stricken. We love you. We want to begin to live in ways that honor you be because we love you.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

That would have been the appropriate response. Right. It's repentance, it's a contrition of the heart. It's this um genuine, heartfelt return to the Lord, that would have been appropriate. What they begin to say is, okay, how much is it gonna cost us? What do we have to do? It's a type of arrogance to think that they even could. Yeah, and it's also detached from any relationship. You know, it's it's like it's like uh I think about, you know, if it's my anniversary and I'm like, you know, like, what do I gotta do to make, you know, you're like to to make you uh you know, to satisfy the demands of the anniversary here, that I feel to get you flat, like if like you know, if it's so mechanical and detached from the heart, like that doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

And that's the reality, is that when we begin to to have this perspective that the Lord is trying to exact something, or that we have we we have to offer something to him to kind of bring reconciliation, it is an insufficient thing. That's just not we don't have the capacity to do that. It's and it's that's not what the Lord is wanting, right? So, and it is legalistic as I talked about. Yeah, it's this uh yeah, this this transaction and um it's a one-sided transaction, our relationship with the Lord. God gave his son. Yeah, that's that's the payment.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

I think that I think that's a really good reminder for anybody that's struggling with that that legalistic mindset who maybe comes from a tradition or just just tends to lean that way, is to is to maybe just stop and slow yourself down and think to yourself, am I trying to be transactional? Like, does this seem as though it's transactional? And maybe that should throw a red flag up and say, okay, maybe I'm approaching this in the wrong way.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

And I leaned into this at the end of the message. It's kind of these are the fun little, like when you're a preacher, because this was actually not the easiest message to prep for. I labored a lot longer on this message than I probably should have, but um uh it's a those little like gifts that the Lord just deposited, deposits in the text for you. It's so interesting to you that in their attempt to earn before the Lord something, and they begin to offer up what they're gonna, yeah. Hey, we we'll give you this, that, and you know, obviously they go over the top, they end up saying, you know, shall I give my firstborn? Like, shall the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? Yeah. And you're like, oh my goodness. Like, no, we don't need to give our child for the sin of our soul. God gave his child. Yep. Like, I think that's the essence of like, you're gonna see that in the moment. It's like, oh, clearly, this is you know, a pointing to to Christ, I think, in a way. And uh, you look at that in the text, it's like, no, we don't have to do that. God did that for us, he gave his son, and um and that alone, that truth, um, should be the truth that we reflect on over and over and over again. Because when we actually realize that we don't bring anything to the table, the transaction was purely what God did and what he brought to the table on our behalf. Right. That's the basis by which we have standing before God. When we truly reflect on that, then then the righteousness that should flow from a transformed heart is purely in response to the to the grace he's given us. Yeah, it's not the other way around. Yeah like I talked about.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

You see that beauty and it should overflow.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

It's like, man, God has done everything for us. Yeah, how can we not just love him and live for him? Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

You know. Yeah, and to have this idea that I can pay cash as I'm paying for my sins. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Yeah, can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

No, no, no, definitely not. All right, good. Uh, one of the one of the most uh memorable statements from the sermon was grace is not the reward of obedience. Obedience is the right response to grace. And I think I think you just hit the hit the head of the nail on that one. Yeah. Um, pretty much, you know, yeah, the the same point.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

We're gonna press into it a little bit, probably even again this week for the message I'm doing, which is interesting how much these things are mapping on to each other. But um I know we say this often, but probably can't say it enough. It's like the root of our salvation is what Christ has done.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

It's nothing we've done. But there is a fruit of that salvation that produces works, and that's what James talks about. It produces righteous things. That is a gift of God. Yes, that is that is that is the fruit of the spirit that we participate in. We were we we are active in our sanctification, but we don't take credit right for that. That is a gift. And so um, so part of that idea of grace and obedience, it's like a reminder that God has done the gracious act in Christ, and now flowing from that in a tran with a transformed heart, which was Israel's problem. They had stiff necked, they were stiff-necked people with hardened hearts. Through the new covenant, God gives us a new heart, he changes our heart. From that now begins to flow by the power of the Spirit a new kind of life, and that's the response to the grace that He's done in our life. It's not the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's good to think about how that how that actually plays out. Um, yeah, how that actually plays out in our life. Works are a good thing, right? Yeah, yeah. Works are a good thing, but they can't buy us anything.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

And they flow from a heart that's already been transformed and and and a person who already has a good a right standing before God.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

And and I I actually love how Paul he he tells us why. He says, you know, it's by grace that you've been saved through faith. Um and why. Why is it grace? Why, why is God choosing grace instead of saying, here are some works that you need to do. Paul says, so that no man can boast. And so we have we have nothing to if the if the person is trying to boast in their works, then they've just they've just got it wrong. And and we have that tendency to fall into that. All of us do. We have a tendency to wanna I'm just gonna pull myself up by the bootstraps, and it's like, no, you are incapable of doing that.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Um which by the way, that's Jordan's text.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

So yeah, you're getting back into it. We're gonna talk about that more. Well, you are, I'm not. So that's great. That's true, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah. All right. Actually, let's talk about Ephesians 2 right now. I'd love to talk about that. Yeah, we can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 33:57

I'll just have Jordan uh Lewis clip it and then we'll just transpose it and yeah, we'll be fine. Uh you made a really powerful point in the sermon when you said God didn't enter into a c a covenant and then save Israel based on terms. He saved them and then he entered and entered into a covenant with them and said, Obey me. Um and I immediately thought of that, Romans 5.8, uh, where Paul talks about um, yeah, we were still sinners, but Christ died for us. And so it's that consistency in the nature. And you talked about how that whole idea coincides with our understanding of works, that God doesn't wait for us to do good before he saves us, but that he'll save us, and as a result of that, that we'll do those good works. Is there anything else you wanted to add on that?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

I know we're a little exhaustive on that, but yeah, no, I I think that that's um I mean, I think we pressed into that a little bit. I think what's in maybe that one of the things that's maybe helpful to think through is sometimes we think about the new covenant. Yeah, because it's caught talked about this covenant of gra of the grace of Jesus. We we think about this new covenant in terms of a gracious work of God, but we think of the old covenant as if it's climbing. But but I think it's a good reminder to say, no, for the people of Israel, it started like it was grace.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

God brought them into this relationship and then he gave them the law. They had already had this covenant, right? They were that and and the law was part of living out the reality of that that he was their God. Yeah, they were his people. That was grace. They didn't do anything to merit the work that he did when he rescued them from Egypt and then joined himself to to them. Like that was a it's it was started with grace.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

So it's just I think sometimes we tend to think about um old testament god equals mean, new testament god equals gracious and kind. Yeah. And that is a a fatal error in our theology. Yeah, amen.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Um, so yeah, you think about the grace and the garden, you know, covering Adam and Eve before they go in. Abraham, he's sleeping. The covenant's taking place. What's Abraham doing?

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, super interesting. Yeah, and yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right and while he's sleeping, God cuts the I mean, you have the he cuts the covenant, like that's like, anyways, yeah. If yeah, anyways.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Yeah, like you said, it's it's a grace to us though. God is kind to a people that would just self-destruct, and he's just constantly kind to us. Yeah. Um, circling back to what we believe about God, it impacts our response to other humans. So God desired that his people, one, do justice, two, love mercy, has said, and three, walk humbly with him. How is God just, merciful, and humble? And how do we best imitate him in these ways?

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Oh that's a good question. I I don't remember if you even told me about that one either, but that's a great question. Um, I think I would say you know, the image of the invisible God is Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

So if you want to see the quintessential example of the attributes of God on display, I think you look to the person of Jesus and you see that very clearly. So when you think about justice, yeah, was it mercy and humility?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

I think the as the quintessential example of that is Jesus. Um, we see that that he is, you know, God's justice was done at the cross because Jesus took our place and the payment for our sin was placed upon him, and so God upholds justice. But Jesus is the one who is the judge of all the earth. He is he is upholds justice, and he did it in the cross for us. And so you think about that, you think about his mercy clearly on display through his sacrificial work on our behalf, and his humility is probably best on display through his his the totality of his life. You know, Philippians 2 says that you know, who being in very nature God did not consider a quality with God something to hold on to, but made himself nothing and humbled himself. And then the ultimate example of humility is he became obedient to death, even death on the cross, which is the most shameful, humiliating, absolutely humili humiliating, you know. And um, so I think the justice and mercy and humility of God are best on display in the person of Jesus because Jesus makes manifest, right, yeah, who God is to us.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah. So in a in a practical sense, on the humility aspect of that, I think about I think about our culture and our society, which seems to be so divided on I it's name the thing. And there's just so much division in the way that we think. And so when I think about the humility of Christ, I think about what it what it really means to love your enemy, not just your neighbor, but to actually love your enemy. And what you you talked about doing, like these are actions, like we need to be active in this. How do we actively participate in loving people that might disagree with us, might hate us on behalf of Christ? Um, that's super difficult to do. And I think that's it's one of the biggest challenges uh in our faith walk.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

I think ultimately, like I mentioned, and we're gonna press into it in Galatians 2, so I don't um I don't want to jump the gun too much on that, but it's like it is it is through the the power of the spirit that we begin to live out that life of Christ. That our our our capacity to begin to live in ways that are truly honoring to God is through the work he's done in us by the power of the Spirit. And we we live and walk through that, through the power of the Spirit. And that's ultimately, you know, it's interesting you you look at what God is saying to Israel. Um ultimately that's what God was leading his people toward, right? It it is this renewed heart, transformed heart, indwelt by the spirit, a new life, um, transformed life that enables us to begin to really live out what God is calling his people to do. Yeah. And so I think that that's pretty significant too. And what's interesting in that text is it would be very easy, like I said to you, to look at that transactionally. You know, this what does the Lord require? But kind of baked into that when he says like love, Hasid, for example, or walk humbly, like that's not yeah, it's that's not a check the box kind of thing. Right. God is looking for transformed hearts that are living out lives that are consistent with who he is and what he calls people to be. And that's really and that flows from what he has done in in and through Jesus for us.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good word. That that this is uh this is a process that we participate in as we are more sanctified, like Christ, becoming more like him and being led by the Spirit. Yeah, that's a good thought. Uh you talked about Hasid, uh this faithfulness that's gonna stick, um, gonna stick with that person through thick and thin. You talked about your marriage, uh bows that you took 17 years ago. Um, same with me. I think we were married like just a month apart or something. It was very close. 2009. Correct. Uh December for us.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Okay. So we um we were April.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Okay. Yep. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

April 2019.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

So yeah, no, that's uh yeah, 17 years. So you made you made a vow to stick it through thick and thin, and that we should love that.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

But I see people in the world by the way, um, did I get that right? My date. So have you been married for 17 years now? Yes, seven years. If I've been married 18, then that means? Did I say that wrong?

SPEAKER_03 41:06

No, I think you're right. I think I'm a I was married in April. Oh my gosh, bro. My wife's birthday is in December. There you go. Okay. I was just tracking with that because I was like, wait, if yours is December and you've been married 17, have I been married at 18th?

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Now, nine. When you get to this point in marriage, yeah, that's less of a faux pas as when you can't remember how many years. Okay, yeah, that's fine. I'm just saying sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

I have it tattooed on my fingers. So you think I would just be able to check the receipt, but yeah. Okay, so yours was April? Yes, 4'2 of 09. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Oh, so our uh 429, did you get married on a what day?

SPEAKER_03 41:42

I don't know. It was middle of the week.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

We I was gonna say, okay, because I'm like doing because ours was um April April 4th.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

So two days apart. Two days apart. That's wild.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Yeah, isn't that crazy? 17 years.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Yeah, it gets tricky in April because I got a my son was born on April 6th.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

My birthday's March 31st. My daughter's birthday is um April 15th.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Okay. It all gets well, it gets tricky for me too, because we got married April 2nd, but then we had, I think my mother-in-law calls it our our pretties. I don't know. We had like a reception, like we did the the big formal wedding, but we were married privately. Um her dad married us, it was great, it was just our family, but cool. Yeah, it was cool anyway. So, yes, 17 years. Um and you made vows to stick it through thick and thin, and that we should love that. Uh, but I see people in the world and even in the church that actually don't love that idea. Uh they don't love the idea that they might have to practice that kind of faithfulness. And you even referenced Hosea, which I think is just a great example of that. How do we, as uh leaders in the church, um, how do we call someone to something like that in love instead of obligation? Because that seems like the move that so many people make. And if obligation rules the day, then doesn't faithfulness go out the window?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

How do those two things what a we could talk for a while on this? There's so much I could say. So when I do premarital counseling, the biggest thing I try to make sure I'm drilling down is the gospel. The gospel is the foundation of what marriage um earthly marriage is a shadow, the substance of which is Christ and the church. So our marriage is meant to reflect the covenant-keeping faithfulness that our God has toward us, the union between Jesus and the church. And so the foundation of marriage is rooted in something that's far bigger than just our love for each other. So I'll start there. It's helpful for us to understand that because Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me. Right. He will not break his vows. Right. That is good news for me.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Because if it's about my performance and my ability to be a good bride to the groom, I'm in trouble. Yeah, he will never leave me nor forsake me. He will be faithful to me. Um, those are things that are unbreakable vows that he has. For me, that I cling to and I take confidence in. And when that begins to be translated in my own earthly marriage, I begin to glorify God because I'm reflecting the union that He has with His bride, the church. So, like very practically, um Jesus died for us when we were unlovable. And Jesus loves us faithfully, even though sometimes we're unfaithful to him. So when we begin to think about the marriage vows that we we make, for better or for worse, in sickness and health, to love and to cherish, as long as we both shall live, that lifelong faithful commitment to another person reflects what Jesus has done for us. And when we honor those vows to our spouse, we glorify God because we reflect that union. So the gospel to me is central to my marriage. It's also practical because there are times, and I'll I'll flip it this way there are times where I'm not a great, great husband. But when my wife is faithful to her vows and loves me when I'm not very loving toward her, it reflects the union between Christ and the church. Yeah. Like, and the same thing is true for me. When I, you know, so so that my earthly marriage is meant to reflect that. So for me, while while the world kind of looks at something and sometimes they think, oh, what a prison. Whatever it is, it's like, no, this is the way that God designed it. It's good. And what your marriage actually is meant to point to is the gospel. And in a practical sense, here's the other thing that's cool about it. We think about the idea of a covenant of two people saying, hey, they're committed to each other. How restrictive is that? That's a prison. I would suggest that if I have to perform and not know if my wife is gonna, like if I have to say, I've got to be just do all these things, and you know, if I don't, then she's gonna lead me. I'm I'm spending my life walking on eggshells.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Yeah.

unknown 45:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

That's a prison.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

In a relationship where the other person could just go, oh, I'm done. Yeah. That's a really hard life to live.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

I am fully loved, and I fully love because I've made a covenant, a vow before the Lord. And that kind of relationship is something that I think is beautiful and it reflects the gospel. And I would even say, and I can shut up and we can talk for some. Alex, this is great. This is great. I would even say, Bonhoeffer, I think is the one that said this in my favorite quotes about marriage. It is not your love that sustains the covenant, but your covenant that sustains the love. The foundation of my marriage is not my love for my wife. Because our emotions and our feelings are fickle. Right. There's ebbs and flows. There are times where we are really doing well, and times where some of that fellowship or whatever is, you know, there's stuff I screw up or whatever it is. Like it's like that's just life. It is the commitment, the vows, the covenant, which is the foundation of our marriage. From that begin to foster and flow and I think sustain the love we have for each other. So um I have one person that I've joined my life to while I walk in the flesh. I mean, I I'm joined to Christ by faith, spiritually, I'm I'm joined to him, and but I have one earthly union with another human being. It is my wife. I am not free um until death to do otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

And because she's my person, and because I've made a vow, and because that covenant is rooted in and reflecting Christ and his and his bride, the church, it is from that commitment that I think flows a deeper, more profound kind of love when I I r reconcile the fact that like this is a beautiful, good thing that God created. It's from that that begins to foster in me this idea of like, hey, man, like true, genuine love, I think is sustained because of that covenant. Yeah. Not the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 47:48

Yeah, love that's not willing to abandon.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Exactly. It is this chesed, this faithful, I'm not leaving you.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

That's beautiful. Yeah. And it and from that flows love.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Yeah. Which which means when that goes in the opposite direction, it's that's why that pain is so real. Like the severing of that, which we we see in in divorce.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Yeah. And it's really, really hard because I know um many of the people listening are maybe in difficult marriages. And you know, I'm not exempt from knowing what it's like to struggle in marriage. So I want to be honest with them about that. I think it's okay to be transparent about that.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

There we've had plenty of struggles over the years, but like um there are maybe even people who are in a marriage relationship where that person is not a believer. And so the idea of the covenant of Christ in the church isn't even a paradigm that they're holding on to.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

That's one-sided.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

And that's very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

There are all sorts of biblical commands about the importance of um being faithful to that covenant relationship, regardless of whether the other person has that same paradigm. Yeah. You know, if you're married to an unbeliever, Paul in Corinthians makes it pretty clear that you are to commit yourself. In fact, your your faithfulness to Jesus and honoring your vows is a sanctifying thing.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Yep, that's what I was gonna point to. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Um, and you can win without a word, yeah, your spouse through your faithfulness and your commitment to the covenant. It makes it hard though.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Yeah, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

But um, for the people who are listening who maybe they're both believers, or you whoever, if the person listening is a believer, I just want to suggest that what Christ has done for us is a beautiful thing. We are so we should we should be so grateful that Jesus will not abandon his vows. Yeah, that he will never leave us nor forsake us, that he loves us through thick and thin, for better or for worse, for richer or for poor, in sickness and health. As long as we live, he will love us. That is good news.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

And when our marriage begins to reflect that through the choices we personally make, not just necessarily not just because hey, I'll love you if you reciprocate that. That's transactional.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

Yeah, it's not a transactional thing. If we are just faithful to the vows that we make because we love God and we want to reflect that union, I think that that glorifies God no matter the state of our marriage. So it's great.

SPEAKER_03 50:16

It's a good word. Sorry, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Was this about marriage or was that about something else?

SPEAKER_03 50:19

That was a great, that was a great answer. No, it was a great, it was a great answer all the way around. Um, I have one final question for you. Okay. And then we can we can wrap this up.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:28

The question is, what if you don't desire God, but you want to desire him? How do we come into or increase those affections?

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Yeah, I think it was a little bit of that we answered earlier. You know, there are certain things that, I mean, part of that relationship is growing in the relationship. Um, it's it's happens progressively throughout our life. You know, those those affections, I think. Um, you know, he who began a good work and you will carry it out to completion the day of Christ Jesus, we will fully know him and fully love him one day. That is the trajectory of our life. I'll say that. But the process of growing and our knowledge and love for him is something that we develop and foster throughout the the Christian life. Um I I think for people, maybe a very pro I don't we kind of answered it earlier, so maybe share a little something else. Part of it too is I do think in the present culture we live in, we set our affections on so many other things because there's so many distractions and so many things that are so easy to gravitate toward. I just think there's a there's a discipline in not pursuing all the things of the world around us. Yeah. Because that's a shallow, fleeting, empty pursuit. You know, we can we can try to we get really excited about sports teams and toys and things like that. Yeah. And it's like um there's a there's an opportunity we have here and now to set our affections on one who we will love fully and know fully and and be with for all eternity. And I think um don't waste your life pursuing fleeting things.

SPEAKER_03 52:10

Yeah. Yeah, it's uh there's a lot that could be said about it. You know, if you don't desire God, but you you want to desire him. I think of um Piper's got a book about that, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

When I don't When I don't desire God, doesn't he say that?

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Yeah, Desire God's so yeah, because his yeah ministry is desiring God.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

Yeah, but I think he has a book called When I Don't Desire God.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

There's uh there's a guy, his name is Alex O'Connor, he's uh really big podcaster, speaks to he's he would call himself agnostic. He would call himself a non-resistant non-believer. So he doesn't believe, but he's not resistant to the gospel. He actually thinks Christianity is a beautiful story. He just doesn't believe that it's true. And so he he might want to desire God. He yeah, it's like this desire that he doesn't have for God, but he might want to. And I heard, I actually think it was John Lennox, maybe that told him start practicing the Christian faith. Even if you maybe don't, you're unsure if God exists or unsure about Jesus, start living as though he does in practical ways and see how that starts to affect your life. Loving your neighbor, um, seeing other human beings as the image of God and treating them as though they have intrinsic value and they're not just some sort of means to an end. And so um, I've just kind of been following that journey that he's going on. And it is interesting to see him reflecting on how that's changing his life in really subtle ways. He's not there yet, but you like you said, it it's this action that's taking place as well. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Yeah, well, and and Mark and I talked about this before. The other thing, too, I think it's important to understand obedience, I I don't believe is primarily for the benefit of what what's good for God.

SPEAKER_03 53:50

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:52

God commands what is good for us.

SPEAKER_03 53:54

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

Yeah, it is good. It is, it is so that's part of the the interesting experiment that Lennox proposed.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

It's like beginning to live in the ways that God prescribes is good for us. Yes. It is good for human flourishing. Yes. It is good for life. It's just good. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

That's why people like Richard Dawkins became culturally Christian. He doesn't believe that Christianity is true, but he's like the practices within it they make life better. There's something to be said about that, but maybe at another time. Sure. But yeah, great conversation, Joe.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Hey, this has been great, Eric. Well, um, I don't know how long we've gone through through this one, but it's been fun conversation with you. I know you're going to be talking later with Herrera, so I hope that you uh everybody tunes in for that one too. But we're thankful if you joined us on this journey uh for after the MN, and uh we'll see you next time.